Response		Percent	Votes
Yes		58%	743
No		38%	491
Not sure		2%	32
Total	1266

RETICENT_IRREVERENT 3 years, 4 months ago

It's just a reference to a couple of Bible verses on 2 models of optical sights. i.e. 2COR4:6, and it looks like part of the model number. 2 Corinthians 4:6 - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I think the lower receivers should be inscribed with Ezekiel 25:17, the full verse, not just a reference...

And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

gccs14r 3 years, 4 months ago

It's a very bad idea and in poor taste. "Christian" gunsights? Jesus would be pleased, I'm sure.

yourworstnightmare 3 years, 4 months ago

No, if put there officially by the US military.

Yes, if put there by an individual soldier as long as the verse does not interfere with military weapons regulation or function.

Cappy 3 years, 4 months ago

That's just wrong. Who Would Jesus Shoot?

Cappy 3 years, 4 months ago

Proverbs 23:35.

denak 3 years, 4 months ago

Is there a related story to this question? If so, I couldn't find it. Here is my response anyway.

As a fiscal matter, the answer is no. Why spend the money inscribing Biblical verses, or any verses, on a weapon? The money spent lazering sayings from the Bible or the Constitution, could be used for other things. It is a waste of money fiscally and doesn't improve the weapon's capabilities in any way.

On a religious level, I think putting Biblical verses on weapons, has the possibility of being sacreligious. If the verse, is positive and meant to improve morale and to let the individual soldier know that he or she is not alone, then it could be a good thing. However, if the inscription is one that is meant to inflame hatred towards the enemy, or it promotes war, destruction, intolerance, then no, because it is contrary to what the Bible as a whole stands for and is being used as an instrument of destruction instead of an instrument of love and acceptance.

However, even though I am learning towards "no," I do know that Biblical verses have long been used as inspiration for the troops and some are even the unofficial mottos for some units. The Night Stalkers, who are one of the most elite pilot units in the military, use Isaiah 6:8 as one of their mottos. "Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I; send me. Isaiah 6:8"

And I know that during Desert Storm, Psalm 23 was a popular chapter. "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me......" (Psalm 23:4)

I think for a lot of our men and women in uniform, I think that having a Biblical inscription on their weapon could have a positive emotional impact on them.

So, I am on the fence. I think there is the potential for something positive with this, but I think in the whole scheme of things, I don't think we really need it and when it comes down to it, I don't think the powers that be, who are promoting this really care so much about the positive aspect of this. I think they see this as a way to stick it to Islam.

Dena:)

P.S. For the record, I would have the same response if the military wanted to put sayings from any Holy Book or historical text on weapons.

1029 3 years, 4 months ago

Cappy, Jesus would shoot anyone who isn't an obediant Christian. Duh! This is God's country and it is His will that we conquer more primitive people and lands in hopes of coverting them to Christianity. If America-haters would rather get a bullet in the brain instead of just accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, then so be it. Personally, I'd like to see a cross and a Jesus fish on the U.S. flag, but if we can't get that done, then we should at least be able to put bible verses on our weapons.

jumpin_catfish 3 years, 4 months ago

Should I be allowed to eat a half slab or full slab o' ribs? Under Obumacare I would get serious prison time for eating unhealthy. I ain't lyin', its in there somewhere.

puddleglum 3 years, 4 months ago

dena, I read your first sentence andI can't figure this out either.

however, I think that every U.S. bomb should have a citing of scripture....imagine the fun:

treat others how you want to be treated
For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal and my favorite:
I have a plan for you

oh, this could go on

RoeDapple 3 years, 4 months ago

http://www.ecanadanow.com/curiosity/2010/01/19/bible-verse-references-found-on-u-s-military-weapons/

"An ABCNews.com report showed one scope with JN8:12 engraved on it, apparently a reference to the New Testament’s gospel of John."

"The contracts Trijicon signed with the government neither require nor prohibit the markings"

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794

"One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_military_weapons_bible_passages

"Munson, Trijicon's sales director, said the practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003"

"military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought"

Newell_Post 3 years, 4 months ago

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Matthew 10:34, New Standard Revised Version

scott3460 3 years, 4 months ago

How many potential terrorists will this idiotic move inspire to believe we are engaged in a Holy War? Yet another avoidable injury done by the bush/cheney adminstration.

Did_I_say_that 3 years, 4 months ago

scott3460 (Anonymous) says… "How many potential terrorists will this idiotic move inspire to believe we are engaged in a Holy War? ..."

Earth to scott3460: The terrorists are already engaged in a Holy War.

Further, if the enemy is close enough to read the part number on an optical scope, it will not matter what he thinks.

Did_I_say_that 3 years, 4 months ago

Marion, you paraphrased my thought before I wrote it. Cool trick!

scott3460 3 years, 4 months ago

No, Marion, we are not. At least we are not now and never should have been during the prior illegitimate administration. If a white man is mugged on the streets of KC by a black man, are we engaged in a race war?

Mixolydian 3 years, 4 months ago

RETICENT_IRREVERENT (Anonymous) says…

I think the lower receivers should be inscribed with Ezekiel 25:17, the full verse, not just a reference…

And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Ha! Get all Samuel L. Jackson on thier a**.

snap_pop_no_crackle 3 years, 4 months ago

I've got a Trijicon sight on one of my rifles. I gave it a careful once-over this evening & didn't see any cryptic or encrypted messages. Should we keep soldiers from carrying money that has "In God we trust" printed on it?

rando1965 3 years, 4 months ago

OMG..... YES YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO. AND OF THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK OTHERWISE I SUGGEST THAT YOU GET TO YOUR RECURTERS OFFICE RIGHT AWAY AND SIGN UP,THEN COME BACK AND TELL US WHAT YOU THINK. IM GONNA SHUT UP BEFORE I GET BANNED FROM HERE.

parrothead8 3 years, 4 months ago

I voted Yes, but I wish I could have voted Conditionally.

If the Bible verse is imprinted by the manufacturer, then it has no place being sold to a professional national military, unless that military is composed 100% of Christians.

If the Bible verse is written onto the weapon by the person carrying it into the line of fire, then I'm all for it. If someone is willing to put his/her life on the line, I'm not opposed to them writing whatever the heck will make it easier for them on their weapon.

scott3460 3 years, 4 months ago

"“WE” are not engaged in a “Holy War” per se but are engeaged in defending ourselves against a “Holy War” launched by others who are religious fundamentalist fanatics, who would just as soon behead your children as eat breakfast."

So you think inscribing our weapons with Christian religious statements is a good idea? Why?

riverdrifter 3 years, 4 months ago

I can say with all honesty that in my whole family, both sides, the only relative I have who was 'deeply' religious was an uncle who was a sharpshooter (he never referred to himself as a 'sniper') in WWII in Europe. I have his M1903A4 rifle with the M84 telescope (don't you dare call it merely a 'scope') which the Army presented him after the war. The rifle & scope are immaculate, without a scratch. He told me that to while away the time he would etch tiny bible verses on the bullets he used with a scapel he "borrowed". The 'scratches' come in on the armour plated cover of the bible he wore over his heart. There are 29 of them. He put them there -instead of notches on his rifle stock.

808Drive 3 years, 4 months ago

ABSOLUTELY NOT! This country is built on religious freedom! In this country we are NOT all Christian like you and we fight along side you. We are supposed to practice the separation of church and state. Give me a break...you are all nuts!

dpowers 3 years, 4 months ago

How about this one: "Thou shall not kill."

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

yourworstnightmare ftw @ 5:52pm

That says it all.

Liberty275 3 years, 4 months ago

Seeing as how there is no god, the references to the bible verses are pretty goofy. I think the practice needs to end because it is an abridgment of the first amendment as it favors one religion over others.

While we are a country built upon christian ideals, we are not a christian nation.

K_Verses_The_World 3 years, 4 months ago

A cock is crowing far away and another soldier's deep in prayer, Some mother's child has gone astray, she can't find him anywhere. But I can hear another drum beating for the dead that rise, Whom nature's beast fears as they come and all I see are dark eyes.

Bob Dylan - Dark Eyes

jaywalker 3 years, 4 months ago

Yes.

Did_I_say_that 3 years, 4 months ago

Liberty275 (Anonymous) says… "... I think the practice needs to end because it is an abridgment of the first amendment as it favors one religion over others..."

You conveniently forgot the second half of the first sentence, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". If a private manufacturer of firearm accessories chooses to use the numeric address of a bible verse for its part number; that right should not be infringed upon. Here is an example of one of the "secret code" part numbers: AC0G4X32JN8:12

The secret coded part numbers do nothing to abridge the first amendment; nor, would they incite a holy war. Unless one has studied Christianity it is doubtful they would even notice or understand the reference.

riverdrifter 3 years, 4 months ago

"K_Verses_The_World (Anonymous) says…

A cock is crowing far away and another soldier's deep in prayer, Some mother's child has gone astray, she can't find him anywhere. But I can hear another drum beating for the dead that rise, Whom nature's beast fears as they come and all I see are dark eyes.

Bob Dylan - Dark Eyes

Exactly. Uncle Champ did what he was destined to do & was in no way proud of it. He was a master gardener though. I still grow tomatoes & garlic from his garden.

vertigo 3 years, 4 months ago

Why not? Religion being the reason for many violent acts and wars... it's only fitting.

rellek 3 years, 4 months ago

The Poll is not asking the right question. It is not the gun that has the bible verse inscribed on it . It is the scope that allows the soldier to see the target that has the inscription.

So it is like asking if inscribing versus on some binoculars should be allowed.

Just thought I would share.

tbaker 3 years, 4 months ago

Its not and never has been about the weapon, or what may be inscribed on it. Its about the person carrying it. Given most of our enemies we find on the various battlefields these days are Muslim, which do you believe upsets them more? Obscure christian references on a weapon or the fact most of the people carrying the weapons are christian?

That said, the scope manufacturer should stop this practice. It needlessly antagonizes the populations (Iraq & Afghanistan) whose trust and support we are trying to win. This foolishness will most certainly be noticed by the civilian populations of these countries making our job there even more difficult. The weapons function just fine without it.

justtired 3 years, 4 months ago

If you were the one carrying the weapon, then comment. Sometimes that verse might be the last thing that soldier sees before losing his/her life. Aren't there bigger issues plaguing our country?!

M. Lindeman 3 years, 4 months ago

scott3460 (Anonymous) says…

How many potential terrorists will this idiotic move inspire to believe we are engaged in a Holy War? Yet another avoidable injury done by the bush/cheney adminstration.

rdragon writes:

???? I didn't know Bush/Cheney where still in the White House.

Paul R. Getto 3 years, 4 months ago

Sure. Why not? After all, this is the "my god can beat up your god" war, is it not? The whole endeavor is about the battles of the sky gods (and oil, of course.)

queequeg 3 years, 4 months ago

Of courses they should. It clearly shows that christianity is actually a violent hateful religion. Jesus would have it on his gun.

jkilgore 3 years, 4 months ago

Yes, just as long as those like myself aren't Christian don't have to participate in war and can sit on the sidelines and watch holy wars, then I'm okay with it.

Or, maybe if we allow a Darwin fish on each every tenth bomb. That way we're fairly represented. But I do have some questions.

Do you suppose that bombs that have scripture are able to kill just the evil and avoid killing children?

Is there a verse that says something along the lines of "kill 'em all and lot God sort them out"? that's a thoughtful, well-reasoned approach.

Does God love a bomb with scripture more than a bomb without scripture?

theironmouse 3 years, 4 months ago

Okay,

For those politically correct and religious-high-almighty people, lets look at some facts.

1.) These soldiers are out there risking being shot, tortured, dealing with what ever they need to protect the innocent and the lives around them. They do this out of duty, honor, and free-will. They have families just like you! When is the last time you can even claim remotely once or that type of commitment and done it with your own free will? I am guessing NO! These people wake up every day and not knowing if the old lady coming down the street is going to blow them up? Think about it! How selfish are you? Take your political correctness and stuff it. 2.) As for putting images or words that are associated to God on weapons, as mush as it may seem wrong.. these soldiers need something that gives them hope, strength, and some form of peace on a battlefield. When out in the desert not know if they will get shot while walking down the next block, we need them to be as focused as possible to NOT let that happen and if this helps them focus, SO BE IT! 3.) Referencing my 2nd point, talking with those who served in WW II and Vietnam, these comments were not there as a form of jihad were the words of God are out to kill, it is there as a moral booster. It is also there as a symbol of their belief in God Majority of the people that did this did it for point number 2. Granted there are some that did take it as God killing people but those are few and far between.

Either way, unless you were on the battlefield, you would not understand. For those who are trying to fight the law and have it changed. Do this, grab a gun, body armor, and we drop your happy butt in the middle of Iraq. Those trying to change the policy are heartless cowards who are more concerned about themselves and their self-gratification rather then those who are risking their lives. THAT is not the American spirit.

radiohawk 3 years, 4 months ago

It strikes me as hard to reconcile a religion with the unambiguous commandment "Thou shal not kill" and verses from that religion's "good book" on an instrument of killing.

artichokeheart 3 years, 4 months ago

Gott mit uns

Ricky_Vaughn 3 years, 4 months ago

Jesus shouldn't be telling anyone what they can or can't do. Whatever happened to separation of church and state?

Satirical 3 years, 4 months ago

I agree with Defender. The weapon is property of the United States military. It should not be allowed to have any references to the Bible or any Holy Book.

This is wrong and illogical on numerous levels. And I say that as a Christian Conservative.

Romans832 3 years, 4 months ago

In spite of the fact that my screen name is a Biblical reference, if I were to see that sequence of letters/numbers/punctuation, I'm not sure I'd turn to the Bible to see what it said. On any given day, it might have meant nothing to me--like some of those personalized license plates that I just don't get, or can find two or three interpretations. Other days, I might see it as a message from God. Just depends on how the planets are aligned, or something. When I first saw the picture with this story yesterday, I didn't "see" anything resembling a Bible code. It wasn't until reading what someone else thought I was supposed to see that I saw it as a Biblical reference. No, I didn't see the image of Mary in that slice of potato.

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

What a lot to do about nothing.

Some of you need to get a life.

meggers 3 years, 4 months ago

Hell, no.

ladyoneill 3 years, 4 months ago

What a waste of money! The answer is NO.

I hate to tell the government this but not every soldier is a Christian! I would be offended with that shoved in my face everytime I picked up my gun. The bible is not my holy book.

CWGOKU 3 years, 4 months ago

Leave it up to the Soldier. Scripture on weapons should not come as standard Military issue. Seperation of Church and State meant by the Founding Fathers the State does not have the right to tell you which Church to attend.

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

"What a waste of money!"

Where does the "waste of money" come in? Have any of you clueless people even SEEN one of these sights that the article is referencing?

The verse reference (not the verse itself) is tagged on the end of the makers model mark. It's part of the mold fixture at the factory, put there by the factory designers. There is no cost involved in putting this on, versus any other marking.

This article SUCKS in that it doesn't present an example for the unwashed to see, hence we have a plethora of ignorant opinions and suppositions being thrown around.

No contractual prohibition, so it stayed on the final items delivered. It's up to the military acquisitions folks to decide if they want to put a restriction on future purchases or not.

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't have a restriction - though I'm sure the contracts were initially made under tight time constraints, and it just slipped by.

In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka - "Lighten up, Francis."

sourpuss 3 years, 4 months ago

As long as everyone is free to put whatever writing they want onto their weapons, what does it matter? It's all made up anyway.

jimmyjms 3 years, 4 months ago

"Few if any of you have the right to tell a true warrior, acting in your defence what to write but many of you are possessed with the insane arrogance to do so."

Sez failed business owner and former snitch Marion Lynn.

"???? I didn't know Bush/Cheney where still in the White House."

The contract was enacted during the last admin.

BrianR 3 years, 4 months ago

No, they should read:

"Yeah hippie, go back to Woodstock if you don't want to shoot anything." --Eric Cartman

Danimal 3 years, 4 months ago

They shouldn't be on there, but we can't expect our troops in the field to send back their optics and reduce their combat effectiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if these already expensive devices become a collectors item amongst people who collect military artifacts.

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

Company web site:

http://www.trijicon.com/Trijicon.cfm

Their customer base can apparently be divided into three sections:

General public (usually hunters)
Law enforcement
Military

Click around on some of their product offerings, such as the ATWS ("Advanced Thermal Weapons Sight"). You'll find the disclaimer, "For sale directly to Military and Law Enforcement agencies only!"

I guess if I was going to put this to the test, I'd look up some municipal law enforcement agencies and/or private individuals that have also purchased the sights, and see if those items have the same product numbers, lettering, etc. as the equipment issued to our military. I'd especially want to see older pieces of Trijicon equipment, to verify that this is indeed something that's been going on for 30+ years.

If it's something that Trijicon cooked up because the got a military contract ("Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if the sights we sent to the soldiers had a hidden Bible verse number?!?"), then I'd not renew their contract, or take 'em to court over it. But if it's something that goes way back in company history... so what?

Were these sights put through an extensive round of trials against other sights? Or did somebody just sign off on the contract because Trijicon was the lowest bidder, or someone in the Pentagon thought it would be "cool" to have hidden scripture quotations on rifle sights?

If the sights are truly the best out there, and our soldiers are putting them to good use, then it shouldn't matter if it has a hidden scripture number... a verse from the Quran... or a topless picture of Sarah Palin.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com

spiff 3 years, 4 months ago

They should be required to have entertaining quotes from 70s music:

"Excuse me while I kiss the sky"

"Free your mind and your ass will follow"

"I want to, I want to, I want to take you higher"

Endless possibilities

happy_go_lucky 3 years, 4 months ago

scott3460 (Anonymous) says…

How many potential terrorists will this idiotic move inspire to believe we are engaged in a Holy War? Yet another avoidable injury done by the bush/cheney adminstration.

rdragon writes:

???? I didn't know Bush/Cheney where still in the White House.

happy_go_lucky writes:

The contracts in which the sight makers got with the US armed forces occured WHEN bush was in office.

Its funny how many people commented on the article without knowing what they were talking about. It has nothing to do with soldiers putting things on their weapons. It is a optic manufacturer putting bible codes into serial numbers.

Catzilla 3 years, 4 months ago

There wasn't an option for "Who Cares?" so I voted "Don't Know".

merrill 3 years, 4 months ago

Fundamentalists are still running the bloody murdering war machine so I suspect.

AreUNorml 3 years, 4 months ago

scott3460 (Anonymous) says… How many potential terrorists will this idiotic move inspire to believe we are engaged in a Holy War? Yet another avoidable injury done by the bush/cheney adminstration.

The versus in question were put there by the manufacturer; Trijicon. This is a practice within that company that has been ongoing for many years and was started by the company's founder. This is NOT a Bush/Cheney secret mission. Get your fact straight before you spout any more rhetoric.

AreUNorml 3 years, 4 months ago

"Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, said the practice of including the references was started nearly 30 years previously by the company's founder, devout Christian Glyn Bindon, who died in a 2003 plane crash." - Wiki

so this is a 30 year old practice. that means it was probably Carters administration that first approved of purchasing these items.

Also, the devout Christian founder died in a plane crash. seems ironic that a devout guy wasn't in better favor with his god.

bartstop 3 years, 4 months ago

All of you bible thumpers are a bunch of idiots. Period.

Liberty275 3 years, 4 months ago

"The First Amendment says that I can say just whateverthehelliwant as long as I'm not shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theatre when there is no fire.

I can write what I want and favour what I want."

The government isn't protected by the first amendment. You aren't the government.

"You conveniently forgot the second half of the first sentence, “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. If a private manufacturer of firearm accessories chooses to use the numeric address of a bible verse for its part number; that right should not be infringed upon."

Private company can put whatever it wants on it's products. However, if the product is sold to the government, it should not espouse one religion over another.

"I think that you “Liberty275” have just exposed yourself as a “liberal” plant."

Libertarian. I think you should be able to yell "fire" wherever you want as long as you aren't on private property and the owner doesn't want you to yell "fire". You don't have a first amendment on someone else's private property unless they grant it to you.

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

"Private company can put whatever it wants on it's products. However, if the product is sold to the government, it should not espouse one religion over another."

How is it espousing one religion over another? Most folks would be hardpressed to tell what that bit of lettering at the end of the model number actually meant. It would take at least some modicum of religious education to even identify it - more than most folks walking around these days seem to possess.

Then, upon identifying it they would have to have sufficient reference material handy to look up said verse.

Are those of you so vehemently against this for so many varied reasons actually saying that the Word of the Lord is so mighty and powerful that it will result in miraculous conversions, incitement of mass riots, and perhaps make others hate America (more)?

My, my, my - the lack of rational thought among those who apparently worship reason above all other things is quite amazing.

Here's an example of one of these "Raiders of the Lost Ark-super-powerful-convert-on-first-sight" sights....

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/01/19/article-1244440-07ED117C000005DC-754_468x322.jpg

gccs14r 3 years, 4 months ago

It makes it more difficult to argue that we're not on a Crusade when our weapons have bible references cast into them.

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

"It makes it more difficult to argue that we're not on a Crusade when our weapons have bible references cast into them."

How's that? A company practice that slipped by the contracting authorities? OOoooo - that's how the Templar's got their start, dontcha know!

tbaker 3 years, 4 months ago

gccs14r: Your statement is correct.

As it happens, I am in Afghanistan at the moment working at ISAF headquarters. Those who contribute to this blog would do well to acquaint themselves with the fact this country is largely illiterate. As such, they are kept informed by word of mouth - not mass media. What we would call "The Rumor Mill" is the primary information source for this culture. We complain about "bias" in our media. Here, the truth itself is rarely ever part of the story.

These people are pre-conditioned to believe the worst about western culture already. Given the information environment here, stories like this one will no doubt be blown completely out of proportion. The enemy will use stories like this to reinforce a belief system that already portrays the west in a negative light. Crap like this makes the (already very hard) job of building trust with these people orders of magnitude more difficult.

The practice of putting references to the bible on our military weapons endangers lives and makes this war harder to win. The collective effect on the population is tantamount to dropping a bomb on a wedding.

gccs14r 3 years, 4 months ago

It doesn't matter what we think, it matters what radical Muslims think. They'll use the information as "proof" of our intentions when brainwashing new recruits.

happy_go_lucky 3 years, 4 months ago

First off thank you tbaker for your service. Your personal testimony on this issue, is above any comments by the posters here in the Midwest.

Liberty 275, well said. I love how easily Merril's "logic" was disected and proven wrong.

As you bible thumping conservatives need to realize, the Bill of Rights you love to proclaim defends the governments right to use these sights, doesn't infact cover the government at all. It LIMITS what the government can do, and protects the rights of CITIZENS. Once you get into the realm of "Freedom of Speech" you must realize the government itself has no right to this.

kimmydarling 3 years, 4 months ago

I suppose I look at it this way. Would you want to have verses from other religious texts on the weaponry or sights used by soldiers? People so often seem to forget that not everyone who is willing to fight and die for their country does so with a cross hanging around their neck.

Unless you intend to fairly represent all religious beliefs in the military, then no.

..though from a common sense standpoint, there should be no religious references on any government owned and issued item anyway.

tuschkahouma 3 years, 4 months ago

Fascists having been killing people in the name of god since they landed on this shore. I wonder what was on the hands of the militia at Gnadenhutten as they massacred innocent Christianized Munsee people with their bare hands in 1782 or what was on the barrels of the cannons at Wounded Knee in 1890 that massacred hundreds of non combatant Lakota people there, Isaw one of those cannons being sold on the A & E show "Pawn Shop" a couple of months ago. Four of them masacred over 300 innocent Lakota peoples and perpetrators were given 23 congressional medals of honor as part of the cover up in the early 1890's. A historically cognicent country wouldn't prosthetylize such barbarism but we've become the United States of Dumb. Oh well.

tbaker 3 years, 4 months ago

tuschkahouma: The US isn't prosthetyzing barbarism by including a vague reference to bible scripture on a personal weapon, but as I've said, such a practice is stupid given the cultural environments we are presently fighting in.

Your list of horrors isn't being celbrated, but it's also not being hiden. As people prosper they evolve away from barbarism. The fact these terrible things you mention are in our past doesn't make us a bad country today. Name a place on Earth that doesn't have it's share of past (in many cases present) crimes against the inocent and oppressed. If you can, it sounds to me like you should move there. I would urge you to reconsider and realize that for all our faults and past transgressions, the USA is still the largest force for good on the planet.

Matt Needham 3 years, 4 months ago

Would Muslim terrorists use it against our troops and our mission? It seems like we are walking right into their propaganda campaign that this is a holy war. Or maybe it's propaganda on our side that this isn't a holy war. Which automatic rifle would Jesus carry?

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

"It seems like we are walking right into their propaganda campaign that this is a holy war."

Bingo. With this little salvo being launched and guided by CAIR.

Satirical 3 years, 4 months ago

Happy_go_lucky… “Once you get into the realm of “Freedom of Speech” you must realize the government itself has no right to this.”

You do realize there is more to the U.S. Constitution than the Bill of Rights? You also realize that the sovereign has an inherent “right” to “Speech?” (Technically the government doesn’t have “rights” it has “powers,” but that is merely semantics).

Left_handed 3 years, 4 months ago

Jesus will return and take the sheep on His right hand and the goats on His left. He will then cast the non-believing goats into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

That's who Jesus will shoot.

gccs14r 3 years, 4 months ago

New Zealand is removing the offending references from its weapons. My guess is that several countries who buy sights from Trijicon will look to other manufacturers, now that the significance of the model numbers is widely known.

happy_go_lucky 3 years, 4 months ago

Trijicon is the best at making sights, top of the line, according to the US/New Zealand armed forces.

@Satirical: I am aware there is more to the Constitution than just the Bill of Rights. As you may not know, the issue being stated or as commonly known as "free speech" is under the 1st amendment within the Bill of Rights. It is not in the Constitution per se. The Articles within the Constitution declare the rights of the Government. Again the BILL OF RIGHTS(where this issue comes from) does not infer these rights to anyone but the citizens. Seperation of church and state, limits the government completely in regards to any religious matters.

You sir have confused the point with your ramblings.

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

Well, where do we start...

tbaker, I'd also like to add my gratitude to the pile. Thanks for doing the hard job. Interesting comparison/contrast of the Afghan Rumor Mill and our media.

I could be wrong about this... and I apologize for getting all gruesome... but in the event an insurgent confiscates the weapon of one of our fallen heroes... I don't get the impression they're going to scour the thing for serial #s, parts #s and all that. I think they'll simply want some ammo, and someone to aim it at. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I don't think this has been brought up yet, but if this parts numbering scheme really started more than 30 years ago, consider that time frame: 1969-1980. Cold War.

So, back then, it wasn't so much a "Holy War," in the sense of clashing religions, but that whole nonsense about God-fearing America against the "Godless Commies." Same idiocy that gave us our national motto, and that disrespectfully altered the artistic work of a loyal citizen (Francis Bellamy).

The Commies, I don't think, cared so much. Our current nemeses have a different take.

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com

monkeywrench1969 3 years, 4 months ago

Rather than reading the entire 100+ posts I will say this. This is something the company owner has been doing since the 1970's. When he died in 2003 his son continued the tradition.

American weapons are seized on the battle field and used by the terrorist/holy warriors and I don't think they have ditched the sites becasue of the inscription. Coontrary to what Scott thinks a holy war has been waged since its inception in 600's by the Prophet. And before anyone starts pushing the Islamists were peaceful until the "Crusaders" started encroaching on Muslim lands. The first Crusade was called in 1011 after 300+ years of attacks by Muslims a budding religion. The holy wars of the muslims have continued and were kept in check by the revolving Caliphates until approximately 1924 when the caliphate at the time desolved the Caliphate making way for all the various mulsim sects began to jocky for the vacated position (ie. Shia, Wahabi, Sufi etc.) During the time of the Caliphate they sanctioned wars and actions against kafir.

This is a ploy to take high quality technology away from skilled soldiers who are making head way against the terror organizations. Taking away these sites would reduce accuracy in situations where innocents may be struck and reduce terrorist targets being hit by using open sited weapons

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

It's either being attacked by 'godless infidels' or 'crusaders' - don't think it much matters to them.

Now, if they can use their willing accomplices (in their various forms) to divide the enemy camp on itself - well, now we're talking.

tolawdjk 3 years, 4 months ago

Or, you know, the company can do what it offered and not put the verses on the sights anymore as the military was concerned about the practice.

Satirical 3 years, 4 months ago

Happy_go_lucky… “You sir have confused the point with your ramblings.”

If you had a different point, you should have made it. Your statement, which I quoted, was wrong. Plain and simple. The government does have the power of “speech.”

“As you may not know, the issue being stated or as commonly known as “free speech” is under the 1st amendment within the Bill of Rights. It is not in the Constitution per se.” - Happy_go_lucky

What? Try making sense. Are you saying “free speech” isn’t in the Constitution? An amendment to the Constitution is still the Constitution. Therefore the right to “free speech” is part of the Constitution.

“The Articles within the Constitution declare the rights of the Government.” - Happy_go_lucky

Also, as I stated previously - people have “rights,” the government has “powers.” Continuing to state otherwise when I have already corrected you makes you appear even more ignorant.

“Again the bill of rights(where this issue comes from) does not infer these rights to anyone but the citizens.” - Happy_go_lucky

Actually much of the Bill of Rights applies to residents as well, not just citizens. But this doesn’t mean government doesn’t also have the power of “speech.” As stated previously, the government does have the power of "speech." Whether the government has the power, and isn’t limited by the U,S. Constitution, to use its speech to put Bible verses on scopes it purchases is a separate matter.

“Seperation of church and state, limits the government completely in regards to any religious matters.” - Happy_go_lucky

Wrong. There are some thing the government is not limited in regards to religious matters.

Churches can be tax exempt
Governmental bodies may erect seasonal holiday displays that contain some religious elements
Art galleries supported by state funds may display religious artwork
The motto “In God We Trust” on our currency is allowed
Ministers often pray at inaugural events
Legislative bodies may employ chaplains to provide prayers at the opening of legislative sessions
military and prison authorities may hire chaplains
And in fact the Constitution permits some governmental displays and monuments that contain religious elements.

http://www.adl.org/religious_freedom/WFU-Divinity-Joint-Statement.pdf

Satirical 3 years, 4 months ago

Correction: "Whether the government has the power, and isn’t limited by the U,S. Constitution, to use its speech to purchase scopes with Bible verses on them is a separate matter."

Liberty275 3 years, 4 months ago

Churches can be tax exempt But the government cannot only exempt christian churches

Governmental bodies may erect seasonal holiday displays that contain some religious elements But not only one of one religion

Art galleries supported by state funds may display religious artwork but not as religious objects. They may display them as artwork.

Ministers often pray at inaugural events So do Imams

Legislative bodies may employ chaplains to provide prayers at the opening of legislative sessions Chaplains can be of any faith

And in fact the Constitution permits some governmental displays and monuments that contain religious elements. But it cannot allow some over others.

I'm surprised to see republicans so against the first amendment. I expect democrats to wipe with the constitution, but not republicans.

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

Christ on a crutch, you idiot, empty sacks.

How about going back to the source?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am1.html

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

"Congress

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

shall

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

make

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

no

Agnostick 3 years, 4 months ago

law..."

toe 3 years, 4 months ago

I want bible verses on my toilet paper, too.

tuschkahouma 3 years, 4 months ago

tbaker, I am native american, I'm from here. Christianity was brought here by immigrants who were not indigenous to this land. Christianity was used at Haskell 100 years ago to destroy indigenous cultures. Thats why rebellious students went to the HASKELL wetlands to practice the tribal religions that the Christian school officlals and the federal government outlawed to promote Christianity as it's being promoted on these guns. Ask any Ogallah Lakota or Christian Munsee person who resides in Franklin County, Kansas, about the sins of this country. The Munsees federal recognition was terminated by the U.S. Congress in 1900 and they're still fighting to get this recognition back through an act of the U.S. Congress. Look up Gnadenhutten on Wikipedia and learn about a grisly part of this countries history in the name of religious supremacy and learn where the outrage over killing in the name of religion comes from. The descedents of those Munsee murdered at Gnadenhutten in 1782 live in Franklin County, KS currently. They suffered at the hands of religion just as the Wampanoags suffered at the hands of Pilgrims who killed in the name of religious supremacy much as stated on these guns.

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

How many other tribes of these 'indigenous cultures' suffered similar treatment at the hands of other tribes?

Or was Rousseau channeling some trans-Atlantic vision of pre-Columbian indigenous cultures?

A curiosity.

Also, I don't believe for a minute that 'religion' was the sole reason for such great explorations. Though I'm sure that's not what is being suggested.

The world is, and was, a whole lot more complex than many would have you believe.

What is the benefit of harboring the hatreds of previous generations, by the way? Really seems counterproductive.

tuschkahouma 3 years, 4 months ago

your selective ignoring of the history of this continent in spite of the fact that there are people who have experienced the other side of this countrie's history as passed down from their relatives speaks volumes. Let's do away with with historical memory. Kansas can't be called Kansas because Kansa Indians no longer have an official reservation here The same with Iowa and Missouri. My tribe gave Oklahoma it's name. Furthermore, recall the history of Spanish conquestadors cutting off the feet of Pueblo people who couldn't understand the Spanish requests of submission to the Catholic faith or the request by the federal government that Osage tribal members couldn't be elected to tribal council in their own tribe unless they were Christian converts in the early 20th century. Religion was used by the Pilgrims as justification for the extermination of Wampanoags because the Pilgrims felt that they had a divine right as "Chosen" people to the spoils of the New World according to their religious views in the early 17th century. Who uses religious judgement to makes themselves more deserving than others now? Gee it couldn't be the Relgious Right could it. The heir apparent to the pilgrims as championed by Patriots like George Will?

BorderRuffian 3 years, 4 months ago

Regardless of the off-topic rantings of the immediately previous responder, it is my opinion that if the verses give inspiration or comfort to the brave women and men standing in our place and facing danger and death on our behalf, then what conceivable right do we have to determine what they read...........or believe? If the verses (such as John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."") comfort our soldiers as they stand their ground facing an enemy's bullets, then who are WE to take our stand behind the ACLU and deny them this small measure of comfort?

Or are we simply afraid our soldiers might return to their home shores with a stronger belief in their God than when they left? Heavens.....they might even become (gasp) right-wingers. Say it ain't so...

happy_go_lucky 3 years, 4 months ago

No. It was stated throughout the many articles on this that most soldiers had no idea about the letters. And why would having some letters on a sight(you look another part) provide stronger religious (fervor)? It does nothing to soldiers besides risk their lives for future violence caused by this great oversight.

A member of the US Armed Forces overseas in the Middle East said specifically that the insurgents could potentially use this as a recruiting tool, if not to recruit to simply get the civilians on their(insurgent) side.

Liberty275 3 years, 4 months ago

"I am native american"

I'm a native American too. I was born in South Carolina. I think maybe you meant you are an Aboriginal American.

Pet Peeve #86.

Liberty275 3 years, 4 months ago

"Regardless of the off-topic rantings of the immediately previous responder, it is my opinion that if the verses give inspiration or comfort to the brave women and men standing in our place and facing danger and death on our behalf, then what conceivable right do we have to determine what they read………..or believe?"

We have no right to determine what anyone reads. However, I'm not sure how much inspiration and comfort new testament verses are going to give a Jewish soldier. I served during the height of the cold war, and I was an atheist. God (imaginary) did me no favors and gave me no comfort.

The irony is that even without some imaginary god inspiring me and giving me comfort, I was willing to fight a union of regimes that prohibited belief in exactly what I didn't believe in. People should be allowed to believe and think as they wish. That's What being an American is about. It isn't about the federal government supporting one religious belief over another.

labmonkey 3 years, 4 months ago

Bibles and guns go together. Wasn't Moses the president of the NRA?

Liberty275 3 years, 4 months ago

"Wasn't Moses the president of the NRA? "

Moses was Jewish. So you should have said:

"Jews and guns go together. Wasn't Moses the president of the NRA?"

RETICENT_IRREVERENT 3 years, 4 months ago

Jesus was Jewish.

Liberty275 3 years, 4 months ago

http://jpfo.org/

Holy cow. There is a jewish NRA!

yankeevet 3 years, 4 months ago

how about this one; get down and pray on the sticks; cause here comes my 5.5 six.......................mm

75x55 3 years, 4 months ago

Well, Thing - when did we EVER give out 'special blankets'?

And in the 1800s?

Where's the evidence, anyone?

gccs14r 3 years, 4 months ago

The distribution of smallpox-infested blankets on reservations in the 19th century is well known.

gccs14r 3 years, 4 months ago

BTW, General Petraeus thinks having the bible references on the scopes is a bad idea, and according to him, so do the troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. In response to the outcry, Trijicon will no longer cast in the references and is providing removal kits to any military that wants them.

75x55 3 years, 3 months ago

"The distribution of smallpox-infested blankets on reservations in the 19th century is well known. "

So are most urban myths - the allegations are "well known", but where is there any evidence or proof of the allegations?

I've looked many times in the past, and these stories always end up being just that - stories. Until someone comes up with something a little more than just hearsay, I call 'bs' on that myth.

tuschkahouma 3 years, 3 months ago

British leader Jeffrey Amherst okayed the use of smallpox infected blankets in 1763 against the pan-tribal warriors following the Ojibwe-Odawa leader Pontiac as these warriors were attacking Fort Detroit. The subject is not off topic because religion is being used in a military sense to promote superiority and comfort on a weapon as the Germans used Got Mit Uns (God with Us) during World war One. Religion has always been a tool or an excuse for violence. That's my angle and it's not off-topic.

Agnostick 3 years, 3 months ago

This is a very interesting take on this situation, from NPR.

The author and commentator has served two tours of duty in Iraq (so far).

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122945924&sc=fb&cc=fp

tbaker 3 years, 3 months ago

tuschkahouma: I don't need to look-up Native American history as you suggest. I helped ranch near the Pine Ridge for many years. My many Lakota friends taught me all about it. My point stands: the crimes of our ancestors do not make us, or our country, something bad today. As a nation and a culture, we've learned from our bloody past, and we are a better people/country for it. You should acknowledge that fact with the same enthusiasm you seem to have for cataloging the horrors of our history.

Agnostic: You are spot-on. Consider as well that 90+ percent of the "enemy" in Afghanistan is illiterate. Chances are extremely high they wouldn't understand (or care) about the markings on the weapon. That said, given the media attention this story has received, the enemy leadership (who do understand) will make the most of this, and make an already challenging and hostile information environment even worse.

Agnostick 3 years, 3 months ago

tbaker, I appreciate your kind words... but I will say that I have to defer to Benjamin Busch, the Marine whose comments I've linked to in the post right above yours.

Some might shun that link merely because it is National Public Radio. I don't see how that devaluates Busch's comments, though.

--Ag

Should U.S. military weapons be allowed to carry references to Bible verses?

Comments

And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

If you had a different point, you should have made it. Your statement, which I quoted, was wrong. Plain and simple. The government does have the power of “speech.”

What? Try making sense. Are you saying “free speech” isn’t in the Constitution? An amendment to the Constitution is still the Constitution. Therefore the right to “free speech” is part of the Constitution.

Also, as I stated previously - people have “rights,” the government has “powers.” Continuing to state otherwise when I have already corrected you makes you appear even more ignorant.

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