Archive for Tuesday, July 7, 2009

City working to shut down Lawrence nightclub

City leaders troubled by repeated violence at 821 Club

After repeated incidences of violence, city officials are looking into closing Club 821, 821 Iowa St.

July 7, 2009


Lawrence city leaders are seeking to shut down a Lawrence nightclub that's been connected to multiple accounts of violence, including a shooting Sunday morning in the parking lot that left a Topeka teenager wounded.

The establishment, 821 Iowa, has been the scene of several shootings and stabbings, including the May 2005 stabbing of former Kansas University basketball player J.R. Giddens. Known then as Moon Bar, the establishment has changed names and owners multiple times since.

In March 2007, it reopened as Club Axis under new ownership, but recently changed its name to 821 Club after a 25-year-old man was shot in the parking lot in March. Other violent incidents outside the bar include a double stabbing, an attack on a police officer and a brawl.

"We're aware of the situation, we continue to try to mitigate the violence," said Mayor Rob Chestnut.

The city said it has limited regulation over bars and nightclubs, which receive their liquor license from the state's Alcohol Beverage Control, an agency that only considers incidents that occur inside an establishment when determining whether to revoke a liquor license. The violence at the club has occurred in the parking lot.

But a 2008 lawsuit could put an end to the nightclub's operation altogether.

Jerry Cooley, a city attorney, said the city soon will ask a judge to enforce a December judgment that the facility not operate as a nightclub without filing a new site plan with the city. The lawsuit claimed the club is violating the city's zoning code because the nightclub's parking situation is inadequate.

"They continue to dance and operate it as a nightclub," said Cooley.

Chestnut said city commissioners also may look at implementing a licensing system to regulate bars and nightclubs.

"Right now we're working through the remedies that we do have and trying to make that process move forward as fast as possible," said Chestnut.

Operators of the bar have consistently said the accounts of violence have been blown out of proportion.

But some people have begun referring to the bar as "the new Last Call," referring to a nightclub that operated at 729 N.H., until three people were shot and injured outside. That followed an incident during which seven shots were fired inside the club.

A person, who refused to provide his name but said he helps operate 821 Club, said Sunday morning's shooting shouldn't be connected to the nightclub. He noted the shooting occured in the parking lot not the club.

Three people were arrested in connection with the shooting. The 18-year-old victim, from Topeka, was taken to a Kansas City area hospital, where an update on his condition was not available Monday. Douglas County District Attorney Charles Branson said the case is under review.


somebodynew 8 years, 8 months ago

"A person, who refused to provide his name but said he helps operate 821 Club, said Sunday morning's shooting shouldn't be connected to the nightclub. He noted the shooting occured in the parking lot not the club."

Of course he said that. That is the standard BS answer of any bar. My thought process goes like this - the people involved were there Because of the bar. And if a poster is to be belived, the ones involved were denied entry, so they were certainly there for the bar - they just got p**ed off.

Oh, and I would say that about ANY bar. If the Ranch started having this problems, I would say the same about them.

cthulhu_4_president 8 years, 8 months ago

I saw a nasty fight break out in the parking lot of a Best Buy once. Who wants to join me in my awesome crusade to shut down the Best Buy in Lawrence??

Surely, this kind of violence will not happen in this town at all once my campaign to rid us of this cesspool is successful. The fight I saw only proves that the Best Buy demographic is made up of nasty people who like fighting. Make those nasty people and their lifestyle that I don't identify with go to Topeka and KC for their morally outrageous electronic content.

Lowell Holmes 8 years, 8 months ago

They should just ban the crappy music they play there. Then the Topeka and KC thugs will go elsewhere.

Boston_Corbett 8 years, 8 months ago

The Last Call saga went on far tooo long. The City should develop and strictly enforce standards to have these establishments' licenses revoked as a nuisance. These standards could be refined and revised, on an annual basis.

There is no reason the City should find itself legally hamstrung in these situations, unwilling to proceed.

And yes, behavior in parking lots would be included.

Hilary Morton 8 years, 8 months ago

What is it about dancing that makes people want to shoot each other. Is losing the limbo contest really THAT bad?

davidnta 8 years, 8 months ago

mightyquin - that's such a stupid answer to the problem. You'll run into a whole lot of legal trouble by banning what types of music people can play.

What the city is doing sounds fine to me. So we'll see how it'll turn out.

notajayhawk 8 years, 8 months ago

"The lawsuit claimed the club is violating the city's zoning code because the nightclub's parking situation is inadequate."

Yeah, well, what with all the parking slots lost to chalk-outlines and such ...

vega 8 years, 8 months ago

I agree with logicsound and chtulhu - the troubelmakers will take it elsewhere - ANYwhere in town.

jaywalker 8 years, 8 months ago

How about enlisting the police to patrol the lot for a fee? Two uniformed cops in a cruiser from 9 to close at the bar's expense? I imagine some police might be interested in moonlighting for the extra income. 'Course, if parking is a problem I imagine it's spilling over 9th to the Pool Room lot, so that might be tricky. Just a thought.

pfunk81 8 years, 8 months ago

You'd think they'd hire a security guard or something. But the owners would probably be sad to find out they don't work for tips.

Curtis Martell 8 years, 8 months ago

The parking lot is connected to the bar because, well it's the parking lot of the bar. What BS. Close the place down I say.

classclown 8 years, 8 months ago

Rap/hip hop promotes violence. Close the place down.

Matthew Herbert 8 years, 8 months ago

Does it not bother anyone else that the shooting victim AT A BAR was 18? Perhaps if the city commission wants to disguise their racism, they should just have the police do underage sweeps of bars, and shut down the violators. For being a college town, I think most Lawrence bars and bartenders (I'm sure there are exceptions) do an adequate job of policing the underage drinking traffic. I'm 26 and still get carded regularly around town.

gccs14r 8 years, 8 months ago

The problem isn't race, it's stupidity. Unfortunately, there isn't a law against stupidity.

gsxr600 8 years, 8 months ago

Renaissance: The "bar" is considered a dance club. You only have to be 18 to get in, 21 to drink.

Any talk from the city about this club is a step in the right direction in my opinion. This place needs to get shut down now. I can hardly see a bunch of thugs hanging out with a bunch of frat guys at The Hawk, Brothers, or any other bar downtown. Abe & Jakes if anything could become a thug hangout, but there is a much stronger police presence there already.

Practicality 8 years, 8 months ago

Interesting Logicsound09,

You are constantly harping about unlawful searches and seizures and other perceived abuses by law enforcement, yet you somehow believe all the problems associated with this night club can be solved with an increased police presence. I would have thought you would think that would be unconstitional. Surely you of all people are not advocating for the police to start randomly searching patrons of that night club, without any other reason behind it other than they are entering a business? I wonder how you would react if they did that at a business like 7th Heaven?

As far as this night club, I imagine a law suit filed by the person who was shot against the business for failure to adequately protect their customers would suffice in the closure of said establishment. Especially after there was an obvious agitated circumstance involving an incident with the suspects prior to the shooting.

Jim Phillips 8 years, 8 months ago

"logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

Beware Lawrence bar owners—you must now be discriminating in the clientele you allow through the doors or face shutdown by the city.

Our city leaders are idiots. The people who go to and cause problems at these bars will just move to a new bar when their bar of choice is closed down.

It is moronic to believe that this is an appropriate way to prevent crime. I've got an idea—how about some focus on better law enforcement."

Uh, what? Using your own (lack of) logic, focusing on better law enforcement would actually have the police concentrating on the bar even more than they already are given the fact that it requires a near constant police presence.

There are usually about 20 officers on the street on any given week-end night. The population of Lawrence is over 88,000, according to the 2008 census. Given all the bars and house parties in good ol' River City, ... you do the math.

BigPrune 8 years, 8 months ago

It was a nightclub before and then it changed ownership and remained a nightclub but now it doesn't have a big enough parking lot? How does that happen?

BigPrune 8 years, 8 months ago

I bet that place will sit vacant for years since it doesn't have a big enough parking lot anymore even though it operated as a restaurant for over 30 years with the same size parking lot. Then people will complain about all the empty store fronts and wonder why there are so many closed down businesses.

The bar should change its music.

Thinking_Out_Loud 8 years, 8 months ago

Renaissance is outraged that someone who was only 18 was shot.

I am outraged that someone was shot, without further qualification.

gccs14r 8 years, 8 months ago

Maybe the City should buy the whole corner, raze the buildings, and add the land to Centennial park.

mdrndgtl 8 years, 8 months ago

It's the location: a high-traffic area on 59 with convenient access to I-70... Burn it down, drop a Whataburger in its' place, rake in the jack...

Jim Phillips 8 years, 8 months ago

logic, I have done the math. What you are not factoring in is calls for service. Cops do not just randomly go around shutting down parties. There has to be a complaint made first. So while the police are responding to complaints about "harmless house parties" because the poor li'l darlings can't respect their neighbors, plus all of the other calls (i.e. alarms, wrecks involving drunk drivers. prowlers, dine-and-dashes, alcohol and testosterone induced fights. the occasional robbery or breaking and entering, yadda yadda yadda, the math tells me cops do what they have to do when they have to do it, regardless of how trivial or stupid you think it is.

I would also bet that the cops try to clear those trivial calls as quickly as they can before bar closing so they can be there to stop the gunfights before they start. I'm sure they would love to hear from you if you have a better solution, but I'll bet neither you nor any other police basher on this forum has one. It's easier to blame those who are trying to control the problem than those who cause it.

Evan Ridenour 8 years, 8 months ago

To me it is this simple. Bars or clubs with such large volumes of violence occurring that is linked to the bar (even if the evidence is only circumstantial) should be required to do one of three things depending on the severity of the violence and the situation.

  1. Shutdown

  2. Pay extra fees to the Lawrence Police department so they can provide extra protection to patrons exiting the bars or people passing by.

  3. Hire sufficient private security to achieve the above.

End of story. It doesn't matter if the violence is occurring IN the parking lot. The violence is occurring (most likely) because of disputes arising IN the club combined with the liqueur DISTRIBUTED by the club.

It sure seems to me like these bars are tortiously negligent for the violence under Kansas case law, I don't understand why it is so hard for the cities (incompetent) legal staff to come up with a workable solution to the problem.

Note to city legal staff: I know your solution to the keg party was with a remedy that most likely violates our constitutional due process rights but I am sure this should be a much easier fix, think of something... QUICK!

Practicality 8 years, 8 months ago

So what on earth do you expect law enforcement to do differently ls09? Based on your statement above you are "against" them searching patrons for weapons either before they enter the establishment or after without due cause. And, if going to club 821 does not constitute due cause, what do you suggest? After someone is shot it is a little late to do anything to prevent it. So, barring any proactive approach by law enforcement, which I assume would result in racial profiling and/or sterotyping individuals who frequent this club, that leaves postioning police officers on the premises the entire time it is in operation. I put forth that any business that needs constant police presence to prevent this type of behavior needs to be shut down for the good of the community. Unfortunately, I do think some other establishment would just take its place at another location though.

As far as the bank robber scenerio, I do think that a bank might be liable in that situation. Especially if there was reasonabe cause to believe that a robbery was going to take place. It appeared in the story that the shooters at club 821 had previously been denied entrance, yet they were still in proximity to the establishment when it closed. So they were just hanging out or came back, either way, a business that provides security takes on the responsibility for the safety of its patrons to a certain degree. In that regard, they were negligent. I am also wondering about the "Attractive Nuisance" laws, but I believe that only applys to children.

Evan Ridenour 8 years, 8 months ago

Practicality (Anonymous) says… "that leaves postioning police officers on the premises the entire time it is in operation. I put forth that any business that needs constant police presence to prevent this type of behavior needs to be shut down for the good of the community."

I've been at IHOP at 3-5 am and there has been a police officer stationed at the door many a time, same with the ghetto Dillons late at night. I don't see why if these establishments that are a lot less prone to extreme violence can manage to pay for extra police protection that a bar or club with a history of violent confrontation can't be expected to pay up for it or be shut down. Nor do I agree that if a place of business is in need of extra security that immediately it is rational to conclude that they should be shut down.

In fact, I expect that with a constant police presence in the parking lot a majority of the crap that has occurred in the recent past at Lawrence bars would not have occurred.

My only problem is that the city has options to solve this problem, and instead of doing so the city legal staff is busy figuring out ingenious (note: illegal) ways to circumvent things that in comparison are nuisances. It is easily within the cities ability to write a new ordinance to govern establishments that primarily serve liqueur and they could use this ordinance to make these places pay for extra police protection, pay for private security or shut them down.

dweezil222 8 years, 8 months ago

Eride, your proposal would be a nightmare to implement, at least effectively. A lot of these places have security, but most of the time their security guards aren't armed (meaning if an armed confrontation begins, they probably aren't going to be able to stop it). When they are, what are they to do? The legal lines between what constitutes a justifiable use of force and what does not aren't exactly crystal clear. If an altercation begins in the parking lot, and one of the patrons pulls a gun, does the security guard have the right to shoot? If he does so, can he be sued by the patron or his family? Can the bar be sued? Questions like these have to be answered, clearly, before private security is going to be an effective solution, though I agree that in a perfect world, that's probably the best way to prevent problems.

igby 8 years, 8 months ago

Soon, the ACLU will step in and the city will have a hard time proving the parking case since several other bars operated at the same location. LJW quoting un-official qoutes from third parties who may not be true is a sign that the LJW is pushing this a little to hard and are not covering their P's &Q's hoping they wont get sued for libel and slander.

Sounds like a discriminating factor that this club is being singled out and smeared in public by the LJW and the LJW is quoting a CC in just how he planned to take them down.

When's the cross burning planned Chestnut?

In the parking lot of the chicken joint next door that's owned by the local Lawrence Mafia, what's his name, I forget?

river_rat 8 years, 8 months ago

turn it into a bluegrass bar then all that would happen is kids bein busted for pot

river_rat 8 years, 8 months ago

there may be some raised voices over whos payn for pizza shuttle when they get home but no shootings, stabbings

Anonymous_Officer 8 years, 8 months ago

They should hire Mil-Spec, they would keep those guys in check, I've seen 'em work, no messing around with them, that'd definetly get rid of the parking lot violence. Pat downs before entering, multiple officers in the parking lot during close, with the reputation those guys have, it'd make people think twice before making a dumb descision

Anonymous_Officer 8 years, 8 months ago

Oh yea, and if they are going to shut down the club, then they might as well shut down Ihop, there was a fight there involving weapons, baseball bats to be exact, a couple of months ago a kid was stabbed in a park, should they shut the parks down too? Someone was shot outside of the Granada, it's still open. Allstars always has fights, and it's still open, by making a plan and following through, businesses don't have to be shutdown, it's common sense.

cowboy 8 years, 8 months ago

Has our illustrious police chief sat down with the owners Messrs Li & Ling to try to solve this ? Any info LJW

exhawktown 8 years, 8 months ago

I love how some are trying to shut down the business, because of the violence associated with the location, by turning to zoning and parking issues. Go bureaucrats! Way to really tackle the problem.

Marcus DeMond 8 years, 8 months ago

This address has had multiple incidents of violence. They should have to post a large sign at the front door notifying patrons of it. Some people could visit the club not knowing it has potential for trouble. This motivates the club owners to be more proactive and it warns customers who should have the right to know. It will obviously turn some business away, but that's how it goes.

cthulhu_4_president 8 years, 8 months ago

"This whole issue is about a particular group of people which has no respect for human life."

Right: drunk people.

Black or white, baggy jeans or tight, we're all the same stupid given enough sauce.

exhawktown 8 years, 8 months ago

All "drunk people" are not necessarily violent though. Stupid yes, violent, no. Nobody's saying baggy jeans make you violent. It's a learned behavior.

cthulhu_4_president 8 years, 8 months ago

"All “drunk people” are not necessarily violent though."

Niether are all people who go to a certain bar on any given night.

gsxr600 8 years, 8 months ago

^ You're right except for the part where the thugs (primarily blacks, it's a fact) act completely disrespectful all of the time...

exhawktown 8 years, 8 months ago

Well, "disrespectful" is one thing. Violent is another. I haven't read all the posts. Has anyone questioned why Lawrence doesn't try to beef up its police force??

gsxr600 8 years, 8 months ago

When respond time for a call made to dispatch is <10, I'd say that's pretty good.

exhawktown 8 years, 8 months ago

Yup. But I agree with a previous post that even if this club is "shut down" because of their egregious violation of zoning laws related to their parking lot, there will be a certain element of violence associated with nightlife in Lawrence. I don't know the business owner, but I think making that person the culprit is ridiculous. The culprits are those who commit acts of violence against others. They exist. They should be dealt with. They are the problem.

kansasfire911 8 years, 8 months ago

Perhaps they should change the name to the 187 club. A hip hop nightclub in JOCO in the city I work in had a shooting/murder in the parking lot ( I worked it ). A week later the OWNER took it upon themselves to say enough and sold it. It is now a "blues" bar and no problem since. Power and Light has a strict dress code to keep undesirables out why these bars?

exhawktown 8 years, 8 months ago

I guess some of this goes back to whether or not we believe in personal liberty. A person has a right to dress how he or she wants, in most places. The way a person dresses does not cause violent behavior. I do understand the argument for prevention. But I also think that all this "creative" manipulation of ordinances (and zoning laws) in order to prevent violent crime is a movement toward a society I don't think I really want to live in. Yes, I'd rather live in a place where there is no murder and no violence. But again, the way a person dresses does not cause the problem. Enacting some sort of dress code may prevent the problem from happening in that particular location, but my bet is that the person will eventually commit the violent act someplace else, and it will be someone else's problem. I don't know what the answer is. I just think taking away small liberties from everyone in order to displace a problem isn't a good idea.

exhawktown 8 years, 8 months ago

Revoke the license? Because the business owner is doing exactly what wrong? Violating the law? If the owner is violating the law, then yes, he (or she) should be punished, as well as those committing acts of violence, which are also illegal.

dweezil222 8 years, 8 months ago

kansasfire911 (Anonymous) says…

Power and Light has a strict dress code to keep undesirables out why these bars?


And if memory serves, is also facing an expensive lawsuit alleging the policy is racist.

naturalist 8 years, 8 months ago

My sympathies to the owners of the Quality Inn next door. This must affect occupancy.

geekin_topekan 8 years, 8 months ago

This reeks of socialism!! Too much gubment in private enterprise!! Where will it stop????!!!!! Medical care and hip-hop clubs today, camaras in your home tomorrow!! Ahhhhgggghhhh!!!!!!

zettapixel 8 years, 8 months ago

Hell yes. A Whataburger would go perfect there.

mdrndgtl (Anonymous) says…

It's the location: a high-traffic area on 59 with convenient access to I-70… Burn it down, drop a Whataburger in its' place, rake in the jack…

Joe Hyde 8 years, 8 months ago

It might be worth exploring the creation of a city ordinance that would require all bars, clubs and restaurants to have security camera systems installed not just inside the structure but also in their parking lots.

Or in lieu of parking lot installations, a fee paid to the city by the bar/club/restaurant sufficient to pay for installation of remote surveillance systems placed at appropriate observation points nearby.

These felony shootings, knifings and beatings have become too routine. The trend needs to be counter-attacked. With so many perpetrators, participants and witnesses living in surrounding cities, then fleeing Lawrence immediately following the violence they bring here, I would go so far as to suggest that a remotely-flown aerial surveillance drone be purchased by the city and operated by either LPD or DCSO; or both agencies, depending on tactical need. The capabilities of such a drone aircraft would be of immense help in monitoring known trouble spots, and apprehending the occupants of getaway vehicles.

flyin_squirrel 8 years, 8 months ago

Shut down the 821 Club and open up the Oread Inn Club!

Lets call it the Lawrence Shuffle....

At least Oread Inn Club is underground so the bullets will be contained.

totealongshaker1 8 years, 8 months ago

I think this is FANTASTIC!

who cares where people are from? there has been a very clear pattern of violence in this place. LPD is extremely understaffed and it's a waste of their resources to sit in a parking lot all night when they could be responding to things that have actually happened or where they are needed. maybe the city can enforce MAKING the club pay for their own security guards before actually closing them down. we can't control if the patrons find another place but we (City) can at least make an effort to step in and make regulations before shutting it down.

KansasVoter 8 years, 8 months ago

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Ricky_Vaughn 8 years, 8 months ago

It seems that the violence all occurs in the parking lot of this place, rather than inside the place itself. Tell 821 owners/operators that if they want to remain open, that THEY need to keep a more vigilant eye on the parking lot.

Don't make taxpayers foot the bill for more police, make the owners/operators pay for extra security in the parking lot. Put some high powered flood lights back there too.

Ricky_Vaughn 8 years, 8 months ago

@ KansasVoter

It's not politically incorrect to say what you said, it's called racism.

Jaminrawk 8 years, 8 months ago

Hmmm, so apparently changing ONLY the name didn't end the violence? Let's be honest, bars like this one and Last Call attract violence. It's not being racist or stereotyping, it is a provable fact. People literally fired guns around these places. Hell there was even a hip-hop show at the Granada in 2006 where there was a murder. It's a culture of violence that doesn't neccessarily reflect the wishes of the music artists or the club owners but it still keeps happening so something has to change.

I can't remember the last time anything like this happened outside of Louises, The Replay Lounge, Free State or the Red Lyon. Point to fist fights all you want, but I would rather be punched than shot or stabbed, that's for sure.

Ricky_Vaughn 8 years, 8 months ago

Jaminrawk, if you don't think comments like "this is a problem with black people" are racist, then you sir, are an idiot.

cthulhu_4_president 8 years, 8 months ago

I'm sure that the city's noble objective will be realized. The club will be shuttered, the violence will not leave, just relocate. It will move somewhere else until that place gets shut down, then, after a couple more repeats of the cycle, the violence will finally be contained to an area where decent people won't ever have to look at it. Only then will the final product be complete:

A ghetto, bought and paid for by the citizens of Lawrence.


Emily Campbell 8 years, 8 months ago

i've never gone to a bar or club with out that voice in my head telling me the risks. I can understand the issue with hurting a cop or innocent bystander, but they should be aware of their surroundings. Why should everyone be punished for a few stupid peoples actions.

cthulhu_4_president 8 years, 8 months ago

In no way can the sentance "That's what is wrong with blacks" be considered a fact. It is the very definition of an opinion, and an incorrect one as almost every person of color that I've personally met has been a proud counterexample. Outside of news services, I've encountered an equal number of despicable caucasians as I have minorities.

The logical error taking place here is that you are beginning with a fact (almost all violent crimes reported by the media are comitted by blacks) and assuming that it's corollary is true, with no evidence to support it (therefore, all blacks are violent criminals).

The same logic could be used if I said that all KKK members are white. This is a true fact, or close to it. The corollary of that statement is "Therefore, all whites are racist". A statement which is obviously not true.

Jim Phillips 8 years, 8 months ago

"logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

...My only point—which you have yet to grasp—is that shutting the bar down will not address the root cause of the problem."

On that statement, we can agree. Until the bar owners are held responsible for what happens on their properties, inside or out, there never will be a solution. As far as I'm concerned, the business owners are just as culpable for what happens at their businesses when they continuously (key word) promote that kind of atmosphere as are the actual offenders. I really don't care what the venue is of the business is.

Evan Ridenour 8 years, 8 months ago

"LarryNative (Anonymous) says… The city can not legally force a bar to close because of violence. The city does not currently have the legal power to do so and would get sued. The city can close a business for failing to meet zoning requirements which is what the city attorney is proposing. Stop stating the answer is to close the business because it is not an option. Petitioning the ABC to revoke the license is an option and one the city should look into. It is also my understanding, I could be wrong, that Lawrence police are not allowed to work second jobs as off-duty officers. Mil-Spec security can be used but they were on the job when the person was shot outside of Last Call. It is not realistic to expect the LPD to camp out at one business all night.

My response: You're wrong on pretty much every point above. The city can legally close that bar down. All it would have to do is create a new ordinance regulating those types of establishments (which it could do within the zoning ordinances but also outside of the zoning ordinances) and then start enforcing it. They could also use such an ordinance to require bars with violent crime linked to them to require certain levels of security to be paid for by the bar (either private security or for extra police protection) as an intermediate measure before requiring closure. The cities legal staff is incompetent however so I shudder to think of the ramifications of letting them think up a new ordinance to accomplish this. Just seeing the audacity of the new hosting ordinance aimed at combating keg parties makes me want to strangle each of them one at a time. I can't wait for someone to get nailed by that and challenge it as a violation of due process. Talk about over reaching... Anyways...

Petitioning the ABC can work but technically in most situations these establishments are in compliance with the ABC's own regulations and in any case that can take forever so it is not a long term solution when the city holds the power to regulate these businesses ITSELF.

I must admit, I am not sure if they can work off duty but I do know I have seen them stationed inside at IHOP and ghetto Dillons late at night many a time so my assumption is that they can (and in most cities they can) and either way that is irrelevant. The city could require these businesses linked to violent crime to poney up for extra police protection or be shutdown. Maybe that isn't fair but it also isn't fair for bystanders to have to worry about being shot when driving or walking by these establishments and the tax payers shouldn't be giving these businesses a hand out by financing the extra security their businesses need out of city funds.

Kontum1972 8 years, 8 months ago

difficult to keep a glock in your pants when they sag past your hips...

Kontum1972 8 years, 8 months ago

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soldier1 8 years, 8 months ago

Wow, everyone is getting bent out of shape about race. "I'm not racist, so I'm holier than thou. blah blah blah." Shut up.

My wife is black, and I get along with her family wayyy more than I do my own. They are very upstanding and REAL people. I spoke to them them about violence within the black culture, and even they admit that blacks have a problem and that it is really sad.

Having lived in Des Moines (where there is nothing to do BUT go to the club), it was almost a weekly occurance that someone was shot, and ALMOST always it was commited by a black person. So tell me, why is it that a minority has the majority of violent crime?

There are bad eggs in every culture and race. You, I, everyone knows it. But please, before you speak about race because "you knew a few upstanding blacks", know what you are talking about. Actually go out and not just talk to black people, but emerse yourself in their culture. You might learn something.

greenworld 8 years, 8 months ago

I liked it better when it was village inn.

greenworld 8 years, 8 months ago

Why the ghetto appearance with the numbers in the windows and I truly believe Dennis at least ran his place with a little bit better security. This place appears they cant handle the violence or pressure of having to deal with thugs so they push them all out for LPD to deal with in the parking lot and I dont think they can deal with them either. What did ever happen to Dennis Steffes? Did he get ran out of town or what? I notice Coyotes is called something else and I believe under new ownership. How

Evan Ridenour 8 years, 8 months ago

No, the city can't make a car illegal, the city can only pass an ordinance that is consistent with the powers granted it by the state. The city can regulate businesses so as far as is consistent with the powers given it by the state (read indoor smoking ban, read zoning ordinances, read etc, etc, you idiot).

I find it funny you call me an idiot but use as your argument a comparison that is obviously illogical and ill suited for the discussion taking place. Making a car illegal does not equal regulating businesses.


MiddleFingerUp02 8 years, 8 months ago





gsxr600 8 years, 8 months ago

The difference here "MiddleFingerUp02", is that there has been ONE incident at the Hawk and ONE incident in front of the Granada in the same amount of time there have been multiple stabbings, shootings, and fights at your club.

mdrndgtl 8 years, 8 months ago


Skynard, The Beatles, Staind, and Shinedown? Are you sure? I mean, really? Well, at this point you might as well toss in Jesus and The Hamburgler for effect...

Kookamooka 8 years, 8 months ago

Developers want to make that corner multi/family housing with retail. They'll do what they have to to blight the area and buy it. Don't be surprised if crime increases at the hotel next door or if they start pimping out of it to "close it down' It' s a conspiracy. Hillcrest wont sell. This is the next best thing. and who says Lawrence doesn't have a mafia?

MiddleFingerUp02 8 years, 8 months ago

Listen... A Murder Out weighs A Stabbing Or A gun wond anyday! College student getting Shot On A Wednesday at a legendary bar in town.. which alumni have been to! Out Weighs A Gun Wond on A Saturday by a victim that doesnt even attend the school here!!!

MiddleFingerUp02 8 years, 8 months ago

Also That Corner Has Been Up Forsale Forever... Investors Are Affraid Of Making It a Strip Mall Or Housing For Families. Look Around The Area... There Is A strip Mall And Housing Already.. If It wasn't for the Merc & wayne & Larry's They would do BAD!!! Also The "For Rent" Signs in the area, Are Getting Bigger & Bigger Every Week!!! Even During School!! That Means Something...

Kookamooka 8 years, 8 months ago

The BBQ joint and the gas station on the corner are both owned by First Managment. They are renting them now because they need to aquire more land to make their plans known. Marion, there was a story on this in the ljworld about 8 months ago when Bucky's was closing. I'll find it...or maybe you will first.

Evan Ridenour 8 years, 8 months ago

Well of course your argument looks rational when you pick and choose sentences and then insert things you just made up. I can do that too (other then the making things up part).

You: The city can not legally force a bar to close because of violence.

You: Stop stating the answer is to close the business because it is not an option.

Me: The city can legally close that bar down. All it would have to do is create a new ordinance regulating those types of establishments (which it could do within the zoning ordinances but also outside of the zoning ordinances) and then start enforcing it.

(Note: Just because you say after the sentence I quoted that the city currently doesn't have a direct way to regulate these types of establishments does not take away from the fact that you stated that the city can't legally shut a bar down because of violence which it most certainly can... I already described to you exactly how it is an option even though you believe it isn't. We both know you were arguing that the city couldn't ever do that (you made that clear in the other sentence I quoted) but I am not going to get into a debate with you now since you are changing your argument to try to fit into the realization of how wrong your original factual statement was... oh wait, no... it was an opinion that you treated as a factual statement, my bad.)

You: I'm pretty sure off duty cops can not be hired out off duty.

You: LPD are not allowed by the dept to work in drinking est. off duty.

Me: I am not sure if they can work off duty but I do know I have seen them stationed inside at IHOP and ghetto Dillons late at night many a time so my assumption is that they can (and in most cities they can) and either way that is irrelevant. The city could require these businesses linked to violent crime to poney up for extra police protection or be shutdown.

I want to add that if you really want people to take your factual statements... err... opinions seriously you might want to avoid responding to peoples posts in which they state views different then yours without immediately resorting to insults. You might notice, I never called you a name in my first post but your response was almost completely predicated on calling me an idiot and using an irrational and off topic analogy to try to reinforce your factual statements... err... opinion. Since then it has only gotten worse. I would recommend taking some English courses from a junior college to work on your reading comprehension.

I could keep going but I have to get back to work. Thanks for the entertainment, you've provided me with plenty of laughs.

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