Archive for Sunday, July 1, 2007
Buying into the gun culture
A semiautomatic 22-caliber pistol is about the size of a cell phone and cost $139.99 from Jayhawk Pawn and Jewelry, 1804 W. Sixth St. Lawrence Journal-World reporter Chad Lawhorn, who purchased the gun on Thursday, will be detailing the process of obtaining a concealed carry permit.
July 1, 2007
<strong>Editor's note:</strong> During the next few weeks, staff writer Chad Lawhorn will provide updates as he navigates his way through the state's concealed carry permit process. This is his first report.
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Concealed carry
- Chat about getting a concealed carry gun permit with Asst. Atty. Gen. C.W. Klebe. (July 2 at 2 p.m.)
- Guns in our midst: 'It gives you the ability to look someone in the eye and say no' (07-01-07)
- Guns in our midst: 'It makes the world a more dangerous place' (07-01-07)
- See what people are saying on the street ...
- Sebelius' concealed carry veto overridden (04-27-07)
- Shootings raise questions about concealed-carry law in Kansas (04-18-07)
- J-W Editorial: Local authority (04-17-07)
- Bill allows concealed guns at ballparks (04-08-07)
- Bill would block stricter local controls on guns (03-21-07)
- Gun legislation concerns city (03-15-07)
- Law enforcement pushes, but lawmakers resist, tougher gun penalties (03-01-07)
- Mayor seeks stricter gun law (02-22-07)
- Concealed carry law glitch causes debate (02-01-07)
- County law enforcers tout gun lock safety (01-24-07)
- Nearly 3,000 seek concealed gun permits (01-02-07)
It is just a simple click, but it gets my mind racing.
That's the sound that a Colt .380 pocket pistol makes when it is being cocked. I know that's the sound it makes, but it is still an attention-getter when you hear it in person.
It isn't the only thing that gets my attention this late June morning. More so is the guy behind the pawn shop counter explaining to me how I could feel comfortable sticking this cocked pistol down the front of my pants.
Welcome to the world of concealed carry.
Yes, I'm in the gun-buying market. Now that Kansas is on the growing list of states allowing a person to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, it makes sense to thoroughly explain the process of getting a concealed carry permit.
So, here I am. The best way to explain is first to do. Periodically this summer, I'll be writing these first-person accounts as I receive gun training, fill out the necessary paperwork and, ultimately, carry a concealed weapon around for a few days.
¢¢¢
I haven't told this guy on the other side of the pawn shop counter that I'm a reporter. I just want to hear how he would talk to me, the real me. Believe it or not, people sometimes get a little reserved around reporters.
I'm in an area pawn shop (there are only two in Lawrence, but if you drive to Topeka or Kansas City there are plenty) because I figure that's the place to find an affordable gun. Affordability is in the eye of the beholder. The seller prices this .380-caliber weapon at $575.
"Chances are, you'll never need to pull it in your life," he says. "But if you do, you need it to be a reliable weapon."
That's what this is, he says. He tells me it is a very sought-after weapon for concealed carry. The reason: It is small.
He drops it into the front pocket of his baggy shorts to show me that no one would ever know. Some guys carry it that way, but without a pocket holster it kind of bounces around in there. Plus, you don't want to sit down in a chair, lean back and have your pistol fall on the floor. That's not the best of icebreakers.
He says for people who regularly wear a jacket or blazer, concealing a weapon is a piece of cake. A small holster that clips on the side of your belt or fits in the small of your back will do the trick.
But I'm just wearing a T-shirt and blue jeans today. What about that? The man says a lot of guys do wear them down the front of their pants inside a special holster called a crotch holster. He laughs a little as he says this. I laugh more nervously.
He tells me this is a good gun for it, though. He tells me it is safe with this gun to "carry one in the chamber." Just cock it and put it on safety. That way, it just requires a quick flick of the safety and a pull of the trigger. A gun for a man with no time to waste.
That's about it on that gun. As an afterthought, he tells me I would want to load this one with hollow-point ammunition - a type of ammunition designed to expand once it hits a target rather than travel straight through it. It reduces the risk of hitting something you didn't intend to.
It drives home the point of what this is all about.
¢¢¢
I go to a few more places. I ask what I really should be looking for in a gun for concealed carry. One guy tells me definitely a semiautomatic - a type of gun that once cocked allows you to fire all the shots in your magazine simply by repeatedly pulling the trigger.
"Bottom line, if you ever get in a situation, the idea is to fire as many shots as you can," the salesman says.
Others tell me that it is just whatever I'm comfortable with. Size seems to be the biggest factor in determining whether a gun is a good fit for concealed carry.
Ultimately, I decide to buy local. After all, I've heard City Hall needs sales tax dollars. There are not a lot of places to buy a handgun in Lawrence. Three that I found were Jayhawk Pawn and Jewelry, 1804 W. Sixth St.; Lawrence Pawn and Jewelry, 944 E. 23rd St.; and Hacks Outfitters, 941 E. 23rd St.
I end up with a .22-caliber semiautomatic. It is not a Dirty Harry gun by any means. It is about the size of my cell phone, and about twice as heavy. What I can say about this gun is that the price is right. It's a new gun - not used - and cost me $139.99.
The seller is upfront with me. He says it is a good gun, but basically a hobby gun for people wanting to find out whether the idea of owning a gun is right for them. Someone else describes it as "kind of hit or miss." That's a phrase I can't get out of my head.
I buy it at Jayhawk Pawn and Jewelry. It is a professional process but a quick one. Before I could even look at a gun, I had to show my driver's license. If you're not a Kansas resident, you can't legally buy a gun here.
After I hand over my cash, I get a two-page sheet to fill out for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It asks for my name, address, Social Security number, the make and model of the gun, and its serial number. The form includes a handful of questions, including whether I have been convicted of a felony, had a restraining order related to domestic violence or have renounced my U.S. citizenship.
And the question that apparently doubles as an audition for America's Stupidest Criminals: Am I a fugitive of the law?
Apparently, I answer everything correctly. The clerk calls my information into the FBI, and gets the go-ahead to sell me the gun. I entered the store at 1:30 p.m. and have a gun by 1:50 p.m.
I check the form that I filled out to make certain that the serial number on it is the same one on the gun. That number will be attached to my name, so I want to make sure it is right.
I walk out the door with a lot of questions. Among them is the one I came in with: Where am I going to conceal this thing? In my boot? In my pocket? On my back?
I have time to figure this out. I can't conceal it anywhere until I go through a state-mandated class and fill out the necessary paperwork for a permit.
But my outing has given me one answer. I already can tell you the one place I definitely won't be concealing it.
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1 July 2007
at 10:07 p.m.
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RKLOG (Mark Andrew) says…
From the amount of large, high caliber guns they have been confiscating downtown, I would say that most people who carry don't carry that little 22.
1 July 2007
at 10:20 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Well, Chad, you should have bought at least a .380, for cryin' out loud but I do realise that the LJW is funding this thing and the LJW is pretty cheap so when you get your CCW permit, go buy yourself a real gun,OK?
I personally recommend a Model 1911A1 or a Glock 21 if you are into automatics.
I strongly believe that if it becomes necessary to shoot someone, that you should do that person the courtesy of shooting them with a .45.
1 July 2007
at 10:53 p.m.
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RETICENT_IRREVERENT (Anonymous) says…
Chad,
The Jimenez Arms pistol you bought is not quality firearm.
It's safety aspects have much improved from it's original incarnation, the Jennings J22, but still has issues.
The cast zinc alloy frame and slide have a tendency to crack, and you will most likely have to try 7 or 8 different types of ammo, before you find one that cycles properly most of the time. Most of the time. Reliability is an issue.
Poor choice.
Hopefully you have a 3 day right of recession.
I agree that there is a lack of choice when “buying local”. They will however order, or act as a transfer agent.
There are better choices.
1 July 2007
at 10:56 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
RI:
“Thjree day right of recission” does NOT, contrary to the popular entitlement minded myth, apply to anything but in-home sales which are not instigated by the consumer!
Don't you get it?
The LJW is creating a story!
Chad is NOT a free-lancer, paying his own expences as he goes!
I agree with your comments on the very poor choice of firearms, though!
1 July 2007
at 11:16 p.m.
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kefarris (Anonymous) says…
Can he pass the range test with an small gun like this? Non gun owners think that small guns are great. The reality is that they suck. This isn't a dirty harry ego thing. It is hard to hit the target with one of these little things.
1 July 2007
at 11:32 p.m.
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armyguy (Anonymous) says…
Weight and size are not an issue, as many guys will tell you about their guns. The M-16 Weight, with 30 round magazine: 8.79 pounds. You can hit a target fine with a light weight gun.
Sounds like a great story line, I have been considering the CC thing, might be nice to see whats up with the process. GO Chad.
1 July 2007
at 11:36 p.m.
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armyguy (Anonymous) says…
Pun intended
2 July 2007
at 12:19 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
spywell:
I used to be a certified Glock Armorer and always ran the 10 lb “New York” trigger in my carry guns. I'm 6' 3”, 190 with very large hands so I have never had trouble with large heavy guns. The double tap thing with the Glocks was rectified as was the feeding problem.
In 1972 I had a VERY bad experience with 9MM and foreswore it from then on as the round, in my opinion. is not worth a darn unless it is coming out at around 650 RPM from the barrell of a subgun.
I do so LOVE .38 Super though!
I have a Combat Commander in .38 Super and I have special hollow point rounds loaded well into .357 Mag territory for it but really prefer a full sized 1911 or a G21.
I pracitce by dumping the entire magazine into a 6” circle at seven yards just as fast as I can pull the trigger, I shoot ambidexterously with both eyes open.
In the 45s I load Glasers for the first three and then Winchester Silvertips the rest of the way down although for some perverse reason I keep my old Colt 1911A1 (WW 2) loaded with FMJ.
2 July 2007
at 12:20 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
By the way, before signing off for the night, I will write that it is my belief that a good cocked-and-locked Government Model is all the handgun that anyone could ever need.
2 July 2007
at 5:25 a.m.
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458casul (Anonymous) says…
9 ,40 or 45 dont carry that peice of crap you will hurt yourself and shame on jayhawk pawn for selling it to you.
2 July 2007
at 5:56 a.m.
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Crossfire (Anonymous) says…
Hand guns are made for killin'
Ain't no good for nothin' else
And if you like your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSSS9v…
2 July 2007
at 7:19 a.m.
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geekin_topekan (Anonymous) says…
I have only been witness in one shooting in my life.
A WWII vet and my uncle.The arguement became heated,.I guess the CCW gave this man a false sense of power.Words became fists.He pulled his weapon.In a struggle he shot himself below the right ear which exited above his left canine.He lived long enough to pull off Three or Four shots.They all missed from Thirty feet.
My uncle got Three years because of an unrelated warrant,charges in this case were dismissed with prejudice.I got $30 witness fees.The man?I wish he'd left his gun at home.Alcohol was not a factor.the argument was a no winner to begin with.I have no opinion on the dead man's arguement.They were both wrong if you ask me.
Did he have a permit?Beats me.A combat injured vet would have good standing in anyone's books.I wish he'd left his gun at home that day.
I believe that the gun gave him a false sense of power.Or was right in his arguement.Either way,a gun is only as effective as it's handler.That is what scares me about CC.I beg of anyone,if you can't fight with your fists.Please,for your safety and everyone around you DONT think a gun will make you a contender.It does not.
2 July 2007
at 7:47 a.m.
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Colt45 (Anonymous) says…
Where to start…
If you are going to buy a gun for the first time, find someone who is knowledgeable in the subject. Jimenez JA22, jamomatic, typical Saturday Night Special, if it works, you need to be within a couple of feet to hit anything with it. I know Jayhawk Pawn has better choices than this, but obviously price seemed to be the driving issue since it was mentioned in the article.
You can carry a gun in a major caliber comfortably in an inside the the waistband holster all day long, totally concealed, wearing jeans and a t-shirt, I know, I do it every day. Either a Kel-Tec P11 in 9mm or a Combat Commander in .45 acp depending on my taste. The right choice of holsters makes all the difference. You cant just stick the gun down your pants and expect it to remain concealed like they do in the movies, pocket carry works but is really only safe if you use a pocket holster that cover the trigger and the safety.
Chad should have really sought advise from someone who has done this before venturing out in the unknown on his own.
2 July 2007
at 7:52 a.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
Like the other posters, I think the cheap .22 is the wrong choice. You should at least have a .380. And make it a good quality one.
I have priced guns at the Lawrence Pawn shops and find that you are better off just waiting waiting for one of the local gun shows. Prices at the pawn shops seem top dollar to me. Might as well go to a regular dealer where you have a better selection.
2 July 2007
at 7:53 a.m.
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JJE007 (Anonymous) says…
I think it's been established that firearms bestows no knowledge or intelligence upon their owners. They do seem to elicit fear in others, though.
Protecting ourselves from arrogance, stupidity, anger and violence is a messy business. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Increasing one's knowledge about this subject and others is a good and necessary way to go.
2 July 2007
at 7:56 a.m.
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freeordie (Anonymous) says…
My friend had his glock frame crack, TWICE. Wouldn't have one. Small frame .357. What kind of gun battle do you think you'll be in? 5 or 6 shots should be plenty. I doubt long range accuracy will be a factor in most civilian gun play. Ruger sp101 is a nice little gun. Thats not to say one should relegate themselves to just hand guns. Arm yourselves people, the worst criminals in this country are our government and they seem to be very well armed.
2 July 2007
at 7:57 a.m.
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bullmoose06 (Anonymous) says…
Not one handguns are evil comment from the readers of the ljw. wow! One would have thought that there would be at least 200 or more comments by now.
I have two problems with concealed carry permits
1. The regulation of firearms - Citizens have the right to own and use firearms. Train them yes but do not regulate them.
2. The concealment of a firearm - Something wrong with hiding a firearm for your protection.
2 July 2007
at 8:05 a.m.
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50YearResident (Anonymous) says…
Chad, A first time user like yourself should consider a good hammer-less revolver in 38 Cal. It will not fire accidentally until the trigger is pulled, you don't want to damage the family jewels do you?. Automatics are extremely dangerous on the second round (if they don't jam and leave you defenseless) as they reload automatically and the safety if still off. Most people forget to put the safety back on in stressful situations before re holstering the weapon. That's when you shoot yourself in the leg or the Jewell area.
2 July 2007
at 8:16 a.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
Chad, do you have any prior experience with using a handgun? If not, you may find learning to accurately shoot that crappy little .22 an uphill piece of business.
2 July 2007
at 8:18 a.m.
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freeordie (Anonymous) says…
Right on Bullmoose! Finally someone echoing my sentiments about the regulation part of this. Educate, don't regulate. The conceal part dosen't make a whole lot of sense either. When I get ready to rob someone I always look to see if they're packi'n first. That's why you don't see cops getting mugged all the time.
2 July 2007
at 8:29 a.m.
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mom_of_three (Anonymous) says…
Something wrong with hiding a firearm for your protections -
maybe it's so you don't scare everyone else with that mass of steel you are carrying in the holster. Carry if you must - but I don't want to know about it.
2 July 2007
at 8:43 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Sheesh - what a lame start to a serial 'hit' piece. Must be a low budget for this story, or the cheapest piece of junk was picked to stress the “Saturday Night Special” label that's sure to come in the next installment(s).
“And the question that apparently doubles as an audition for America's Stupidest Criminals: Am I a fugitive of the law?”
Again, one wonders exactly whom Chad is speaking of…. These are incriminating questions, that can and will be used against you if you LIE on this government form. Do you lie on your tax forms, and them sign them? Does that matter, especially when your return gets pulled? Same principle here.
2 July 2007
at 8:46 a.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
flamingdragon - don't you think a Walther P22 is quite a bit more accurate and dependable than the Jimenez?
I am not all that familiar with the Walther so I looked up a couple reviews. Seems like a nice gun but check what one reviewer wrote - ” Don't use this as a concealed carry defensive weapon. Carry something bigger in a caliber that starts with a 4 and hopefully ends in a 5. If this pistol is all you have, try firing it up the nose of the perp, as I heard from an unnamed source that doing so is the best way to deliver a .22LR round into a bad guy.”
The .22 can be deadly but ony if you can deliver the round with complete accuracy. This would be impossible to do in a high stress situation with a cheap and inaccurate pistol.
2 July 2007
at 9:16 a.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
BTW - Hopefully we will hear how accurate this gun is when Chad tries to qualify at the range. I hope he gets a little practice in first.
2 July 2007
at 9:36 a.m.
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granny (Anonymous) says…
I do have a CC but have not yet purchased the gun I will be carrying. Does anyone have any comments (good or bad) on the Smith & Wesson model 642 - 38 Spec with trace laser? The weight is a contributing factor for me. Comments?
2 July 2007
at 9:59 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
Chad's tongue-in-cheek comments regarding CC should tell all readers where he stands on the issue of firearms in general and CC in particular. And, for all you yahoos talking about shooting someone, Chad should do an article on what greasy lawyers representing the shootees family and the Civil legal system will do to you if you are ever unfortunate enough to have to shoot someone.
…and one more comment re:
“spywell (Anonymous) says:
At 60 yards I can put 15 rounds in a gallon coffee can. No match barrel or bushing.”
Baloney and bradadoccio, spywell. Maybe if you have several cases of ammo and all day to shoot.
2 July 2007
at 10:02 a.m.
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Mkh (Anonymous) says…
I'm just curious why so many of you feel like you need to carry a loaded gun around the streets of Lawrence, KS…am I missing something here?
2 July 2007
at 10:06 a.m.
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carnaby (Anonymous) says…
For heaven's sake, toss that terrible pistol and buy something that actually works. Those guns are actual junk guns. If it must be a .22 caliber pistol that is very easy to conceal, at least get something made with quality. I'd recommend the Beretta Tomcat. An excellent little gun.
2 July 2007
at 10:07 a.m.
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50YearResident (Anonymous) says…
Granny, the 642 would be an excellant choice for you however the lazer grip is optional and load it down to reg 38 loads instead of the 38 sp. for recoil control.
2 July 2007
at 10:13 a.m.
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ChasL (Anonymous) says…
I went with the 638, really like the shrouded hammer. This feature allows for using the gun as a single action, a whole lot more fun to shoot than a straight double action. Thought the laser was a waste on the 642, the dot really dances when you try to squeze off a shot with that 2 ton trigger. The wife and I both felt the 638 had less noticable recoil than the 642, don't know why though…………..haven't tried any P+ out of the 15 oz. gun yet, that ought to jump a bit.
2 July 2007
at 10:23 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
“Mkh (Anonymous) says:
I'm just curious why so many of you feel like you need to carry a loaded gun around the streets of Lawrence, KS:am I missing something here?”
Mkh, you need to ask one of the many crime victims from Lawrence, or go to V-Tech and ask some of those students, or ask the families of some of the girls abducted and killed…….that is, if you can't freaking figure it out for yourself.
2 July 2007
at 10:25 a.m.
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JJE007 (Anonymous) says…
Mkh says:
I'm just curious why so many of you feel like you need to carry a loaded gun around the streets of Lawrence, KS:am I missing something here?
–
I'm curious as to why you believe there are “so many”. How many have you counted?
Our definitions of “so many” must differ. What number would you say is TOO many?
2 July 2007
at 10:25 a.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
Mkh - I've got my license but have never actually carried in Larryville. Recently, I went to Tulsa and was in a sketchy neighborhood in the early AM. Having this extra “insurance” with me made the $ and time to get my license seem well worth it.
2 July 2007
at 10:29 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Kneejerk:
The “inaccuracy” of the Gov't Model .45 is largely a myth unless the firearm in question is worn out. A 1911 in good shape can shoot out both of the bad guy's eyes before he can blink.
I use an 8 1/2 lb trigger on my Gov't models as that prevents any allegation of the “accidental shot fired”; “No, Mr. or Miz Attoreny For The Plaintiff, I MEANT to shoot your guy!”
No “staging”, just a quick and clean double or triple tap.
Additionally, the heavier trigger pull teaches one to steady the firearm while actually squeezing, not “pulling” the trigger. I do use an adjustable trigger to eliminate tirgger “creep”.
The M-1911 (.45 cal ACP) has THREE safeties. One is the manual safety on the left rear of the body of the weapon. The next is the hand grip safety. The third is the half cocked position of the hammer. It is, when trouble is expected in the very, very near future (as in combat), OK to keep the weapon on half cock with a round in the chamber.
The phenomenon of people manually cocking 1911's with loaded chambers is simply a form of natural selection. It's one of nature's ways of weeding fools and losers out of the gene pool.
The 1911 was designed to be carried locked and loaded. There is no advantage to carrying with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. It may scare the soccer moms and children a little less but who cares?
Folks who carry on an empty chamber are carrying something between a firearm and a club
A Gov't Model works very well and simply:
http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manu…
Carried in Condition One, the 1911 is one of the safest and yet most effective handguns ever made!
If I had to pick one and only one firearm with which to be armed, it would indeed be the 1911 as first choice and a Glock 21 as second choice.
oh wait
i already made that choice!
2 July 2007
at 10:41 a.m.
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DWD (Anonymous) says…
Mkh asks: “I'm just curious why so many of you feel like you need to carry a loaded gun around the streets of Lawrence, KS:am I missing something here?”
Why do people wear seatbelts? Why do people keep smoke detectors or fire extinguishers in their homes? Seatbelts, smoke detectors, and legally concealed firearms are all ways we can protect ourselves from life's unexpected, unpleasant events. As a former police officer I know firsthand things like accidents, fire, or crime can happen to anyone, anywhere, at any time. Those so-called “good parts of town” where bad things never happen just don't exist.
You may not believe you'll ever be the victim of a violent crime, but that's what most people who have been through the experience thought at first. So it's up to you. If you feel it's unnecessary and you choose not to take steps to protect yourself, that's your call.
2 July 2007
at 10:42 a.m.
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jrlii (Anonymous) says…
Granny - It is hard to go wrong with a S&W “J” frame for concealed carry. I (and several friends) prefer the 638, it is a tad larger and a little funny looking but gives you the option of single action should you need to make an extra long shot, while still not having the hammer spur snagging problem the ones with exposed hammers do. The only thing I don't like about 'em is the built-in lock: I once did a function check on mine and found the lock had somehow engaged. Locktite it in the off position. My 638 is much more comfortable to shoot than the comparable Taurus 85.
The auto fans will say you need an auto with twice (or three times) the capacity, but for a gun you carry a lot and shoot little, revolvers are much more reliable. It may only go bang five times, but it can ride around in your holster for YEARS without any attention and still go bang five times. That doesn't happen with any auto I know about.
With ANY auto, you need to conduct a function check every at least every couple months, shooting the loaded rounds, followed by a clean and oil cycle.
2 July 2007
at 10:43 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
Agreed Marion. I don't think Chad had heard of condition 1 as a viable means of carrying some firearms. From his first paragraph, it sounds as if he's more into “racking that slide” to make 'em run. I wonder how many people have been shot as they rack their slide to chamber a round.
2 July 2007
at 10:43 a.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
Several good points. +1 on do you have what it takes to pull that thing out and kill someone? Do you really? Are you always in that state of semi-defensive posture that if someone tries to rob you that you'll be able to quickly and efficiently whip that sucker out and pop one into them?
As for the caliber, I think the effectiveness of having any weapon would be the sight of the thing to begin with. What you've sent is the message that you're not going to be a willing victim and there is the possibility that justice will be swift and permanent, the ultimate deterrent. Secondly, if the 22 is good enough for the Mafia, it ought to get the job done for you. Aren't a lot of the professional hits done using a 22?
If what you want is to be left alone, don't conceal anything. Strap that sucker on like an old gunfighter. If that doesn't send the message you don't want to be hassled, nothing will and it's time to start shooting. An excellent litmus test for the jury, if you will.
Which brings me to the point no one has addressed, and that's the aftermath of any activity involving your weapon. We have a Supreme Court that has twice stated that you're pretty much liable for anything that gun does that inflicts damage. In one case the ammunition was in one case and that gun was in another, both locked, the gun and ammunition was stolen and the Supremes said you could still be held accountable.
I'm betting that if you ever whip that thing out, that you will have to defend your actions in a court of law. Even if you do win, how much do you think your lawyer is going to charge you to get you off?
The nice thing about this series, and all of the comments that will be made, is that the average citizen who thinks it's cute to go out and stick a gun in their purse, or coat pocket, will figure out that this is not a trivial thing to do.
I suspect that little gal over in Johnson County never had the opportunity to pull a weapon when the moment of truth came, instead she used the only weapons most of us will ever get to use in a combat situation, and that's our hands, knees, fingernails, etc. So,if you want to invest in self-defense, invest in yourself and go take a hand-to-hand combat class that actually teaches you how to fight with your street clothes on. If nothing else, you may lose some weight by going out and exercising, and that alone will help you live longer.
2 July 2007
at 10:45 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
And, Mkh, the numbers that you are curious about are around 255 CCHs in Douglas County. I don't think the phrase “so many” is appropriate here. I'd say “so few” is better.
2 July 2007
at 10:49 a.m.
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Mkh (Anonymous) says…
DWD,
Thanks for that interesting perspective. However I choose not to live my life in fear, for those that do I can see why a concealed handgun might be a percieved need. I feel extremely safe in my community and do not equate guns with seatbelts or smoke detectors. Are you suggesting that the law should require all citizens to posses guns like they do seatbelts? Perhaps you should wrap yourself in protective armor and wear a crash helmet…after all you never know what is going to happen on the rough streets of Lawrence.
2 July 2007
at 10:55 a.m.
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mom_of_three (Anonymous) says…
We may all become a victim of violent crime at one time or another, but carrying a gun will not necessarily prevent it from happening. It would give you another option to protect yourself if you are in a situation to use it, but it isn't necessarily a preventative measure.
2 July 2007
at 11 a.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
I suspect that many of the folks who come on this board & advocate open carry would scream like a monkey & immediately download a biosolid if they ever actually saw a private citizen legally doing open carry.
2 July 2007
at 11:13 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
flamingdragon (Anonymous) says:
way to go jayhawk pawn!
***
So, flame, how long have you been employed at Jayhawk Pawn?
2 July 2007
at 11:28 a.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
snap - exactly…just look at what happened at KU recently. A guy with an umbrella (or something) mistaken for a gun threw their world into a tizzy. Open carry is just not a practical option.
2 July 2007
at 11:28 a.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
A point of realism in this article is that the average boob looking for a weapon would probably make choices similar to the one this reporter made. Is it cheap and small? “I'm only going to shoot it when I'm attacked, so I don't want to spend too much money on it.” They wouldn't know a Glock from an HK (a better choice, in my opinion) and certainly wouldn't be aware of the finer points involving the ballistics of the various calibers.
2 July 2007
at 11:32 a.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
So as long as the weapon is concealed you can have hundreds of them roaming around campus and nobody cares, but one goober straps on an old six-shooter and the world comes to an end. how is that logical?
I'm telling you, if the point of concealed carry is to deter crime, let's make it real obvious and strap that puppy on. If someone screws with you then there is no question as to their intentions.
2 July 2007
at 11:37 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
Between this article and the one in yesterday's paper, I'd say we've moved from slow news day to no news day. As every other state in the union who has had concealed carry for sometimes as long as 20 yrs or so, CC is a non issue. Simple as that.
2 July 2007
at 11:38 a.m.
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just_another_ninja (Anonymous) says…
Few things about the CCH
1. The .22 pistol you've selected has the longest range of any caliber pistol. That means if you miss, you're liable for wherever that bullet travels and decides to stop. Also part of the CCH is the intimidation factor. Why? Because shooting is a last resort. Brandishing your weapon can likely save your life if it came down to it. Therefore you want to get something that's a little more visible when in plain sight.
2. Enjoy taking the class. You'll learn that any idiot can pass. You'll learn that you'll never want to pull your weapon because the second you do, you're liable for everything, even if it's justified. Oooh… “justified”… gotta love that word.
3. Justified - In the court of law, shooting someone to save your own life or another's can be justified. Hmm… “stopping the threat”. BUT, the fact is, you'll likely get your ass sued in Civil court.
I am a licensed CCH citizen and I only took this course because it's a right that's given to me as a gun owner. Because I want to teach my kids how to handle weapons in the future, I'll take advantage of the opportunities that help protect those rights in the meantime. The only time I'll carry a concealed weapon is…well… pretty much never.
Good luck on your small adventure and thanks for contributing toward preserving the right to bear arms.
2 July 2007
at 11:43 a.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
Uhlrick - when Chad goes to class, I'm sure his instructor will discuss weapon types (and probably point out the weaknesses of the one he chose). Mine even brought a broad selection of his personal holsters so we could see what was available.
I originally intended to carry my 1911 Officers Model. After attending class, I actually decided (and bought) a Kel Tec .380 for it's ease of concealment. Sure, its not as accurate but it is reliable (from experience and tests). And it make a lot of noise.
2 July 2007
at 11:46 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
Ninja, you wrote, “BUT, the fact is, you'll likely get your ass sued in Civil court.”
Correction….you WILL be sued in civil court and it will take years and cost you a LOT of money IF you win…IF you don't, you could end of owning your shootee's family for the rest of your life. All these people on here who talk about shooting someone don't consider the legalities, and I'm not talking criminal, that's only a small part of the pie. But, if you do have to defend yourself with deadly force, you'd better have a concealed carry permit if you whip that thing out. Otherwise Civil Court and greasy lawyers will take away everything you own and give it to the person you had to shoot to defend your life.
2 July 2007
at 11:47 a.m.
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DWD (Anonymous) says…
Mkh,
No, I wasn't suggesting concealed carry be made mandatory like seatbelts. If that's what you focused on, you missed the point.
And I guess I missed your point too. Protecting oneself is protecting oneself. Whether that protection comes from a seatbelt, a fire extinguisher, or a handgun, it's all the same. What exactly do you disagree with?
As I said, bad things can happen to anyone, anywhere, at any time. I've seen violent crimes committed in very nice multi-million dollar home neighborhoods, I've seen them committed in towns of less than 500 people. If you think you live in safe area of a safe town and that nothing can happen to you, that's a very naive way of thinking and you live a very sheltered life.
If you don't want to carry a handgun, that's fine. If you choose not to protect yourself and would rather put your faith - assuming you even get the chance to call - in 911 arriving before it's too late, that's up to you. But please don't tell me I'm living in fear because I do choose to protect myself.
2 July 2007
at 11:54 a.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
That phrase, “I don't choose to live in fear” really means nothing. When there were very few people on the earth, including Cain and Abel, one should have been fearful of the other. The violence toothpaste is out of the tube and has been for milleniums. It's part of life and has always been part of life. You can ignore it, but that doesn't make it any different. There are people out there that will do harm to you and your family. They live in Lawrence and every other community on this earth.
2 July 2007
at 11:59 a.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
Kneejerk, good point. The controversy is in passing the law.
I think an interesting statistic would be to find out just how many people, even those with licenses, actually exercise their right to carry the weapon. I suspect for most, it's as ninja said, “The only time I'll carry a concealed weapon is:well: pretty much never.”
It's just pretty darn inconvenient. Where are you going to take it? The symphony? Shopping? I can just see the excitement when you go to try on another pair of pants and your 1911 flops out on the floor. Our business has a sign on the door that explicitly says no guns allowed. So now that you've parked you car and wandered up to our door you now have to go back to your car and put it away. Sort of a pain.
Oh, and as for noise, I think I'll trying screaming like a girl while I explain the positive results of my last HIV exam instead.
2 July 2007
at 12:04 p.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
“It's just pretty darn inconvenient.” Not really, just put on the holster & go.
“I can just see the excitement when you go to try on another pair of pants and your 1911 flops out on the floor.” That won't happen if you use a good holster & pay attention to what you are doing.
BTW, if I am walking up to a store & see they have prohibited legal concealed carry, I take my business elsewhere.
2 July 2007
at 12:20 p.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
Snap, since my last response occurred after you had posted another comment in between, I agree, that CC is not controversial and in great part because few people will actually exercise the right. Those who do will undoubtedly be the more knowledgeable gun afficionados who have both the experience and knowledge to handle the weapon properly and those with a legitimate self-defense concern and, again, both the experience and knowledge to use the weapon properly.
As for taking your business elsewhere, no argument whatsoever. That's your right, as it is ours to decide what we allow into our establishment.
2 July 2007
at 12:30 p.m.
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Mkh (Anonymous) says…
DWD,
Concealed Handguns are not a form of “protection”. They are a violent and agressive weapon. If I was ever was confronted with serious danger a handgun would only put me in worse danger. If someone is going to mug me with a gun in alley in downtown Lawrence they can have whatever I'm carrying and my car too. I'm not going to get killed or kill some idiot because he is desperate for money and commiting a crime. I've got plenty more, so what is the purpose of drawing a weapon and getting people killed? If someone tries to break into my home they will be quickly torn to shreds by three large dogs.
You do not “protect” with handguns, you destroy, injure, and kill. I have no problem keeping a shotgun or rifle at my home, but armed citizens carrying concealed weapons makes zero sense and certainly does not make me feel any safer. In fact I think if the majority of the population were carrying weapons it would be a clear sign that the fall of civilization is upon us. I can “protect” myself just fine without having to carry a gun for now. If I ever chose to carry one I would at least strap it to my hip to let everyone know I was carrying. That if anything, might deter crime.
2 July 2007
at 12:38 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
A more interesting story would be for Chad to document himself making an illegal gun purchase…
Also, while it's comforting to know that gun retailers have a direct line to the FBI to conduct an almost-instantaneous background check on Chad's criminal history… what about Chad's medical history? Specifically, the state of his mental health?
I don't ask this to throw any sort of questionable light on Chad, but in the wake of the Virgina Tech shootings, I think it's a valid question to ask.
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
2 July 2007
at 12:51 p.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
“If someone tries to break into my home they will be quickly torn to shreds by three large dogs.”
Sorry, I'd rather have a real person trained in the use of firearms living next door to me than have my safety entrusted to the judgment of 3 animals capable of inflicting deadly force. Just what is the triggering factor for these animals, and how do you know that they'll wait for your command to inflict the damage?
From my experience, the people who own such animals seldom take the time to train them properly and instead wait for Rover's natural instincts to take over at the “appropriate” time. Indeed, they usually become frustrated when the animal doesn't behave viciously when they're 6 weeks old and then they overcompensate so they have a monster by the time they're 1 year old.
No thanks. Given a choice between the NRA gun collector and your pooches, give me the NRA guy anytime.
2 July 2007
at 12:56 p.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
MKH, The argument for CW is that in the case of the Virginia Tech incident, if there had been just one CC person in the class, the shooter would have possibly been shot before he could have inflicted as much damage. The only thing your 3 dogs could do was piss on your grave when they brought your body home, you presumably not dragging these 3 monsters out in public too often.
2 July 2007
at 12:57 p.m.
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ImpactWinter (Derek Dodson) says…
I think the most important topic raised by this article is that you shouldn't even consider CCW unless you have a certain level of knowledge about equipment and processed involved with being an armed civilian;
Guns aren't usually cheap, they're built to contain/direct explosions.
If you're buying a cheap one, you'd better know what to be wary of, or you might end up with a less-than-controlled explosion in the palm of your hand.
nobody likes it when that happens.
Hitting what you aim at with consistency is an acquired skill, not some innate talent.
Though almost any mouthbreather can raise a pistol and pull the trigger, doing so with control and precision is something entirely different.
What it really comes down to is that the choice to arm yourself in the name of personal protection is a lifestyle altering decision, which carries the burden of responsibility for the safe-keeping and responsible handling of a weapon with the power to end lives with the speed of a lightning strike.
People who seek CCW permits in ignorance of the full weight of reponsibilty, and without adequate training do so at everyones peril, though fortunately many such folks find a couple pounds of steel on their person to be…burdensome…
2 July 2007
at 12:59 p.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
I'm betting Chad doesn't have that gun at work, and if he does, it's probably stored in a safe somewhere. If this is part of his job, the JW is liable for any damage that weapon causes. Want to own a newspaper?
2 July 2007
at 1:02 p.m.
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JJE007 (Anonymous) says…
Gawd. Where will this end? How huge and invasive do we want our big brother to be? Do we really want him to have everyone's medical history at the tip of his finger? Is there a clear and present danger to us if he does not have our medical records so readily available? It seems like we are on the road to believing that thought police will protect us from all harm! I'm being forced to dig out my foil beanie!~) It's criminal.
2 July 2007
at 1:09 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
Here is a good link to a website that posts stories where people have protected themselves with guns. There are more than I would have expected. Kind of scary.
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefen…
2 July 2007
at 1:10 p.m.
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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says…
How many times have we seen on the police videos on TV an experienced police officer fire 10-15 rounds at someone while they fire a similar amount at him and neither hits the other? And a civilian that virtually never gets into even a conflict situation that threatens violence, much less actual combat is going to do a John Wayne?
That's why I quit hunting. All of the city folk go out there thinking they're Daniel Boone. They come out to slay Bambi and after about a half hour with no game in sight, they start blazing away at anything that moves, including other hunters. I choose to no longer be one of those other hunters.
2 July 2007
at 1:11 p.m.
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Crossfire (Anonymous) says…
MKH,
My Desert Dawg trumps your three doggies…
http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archives…
2 July 2007
at 1:13 p.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
R_T - I would bet Chad is not concerned about “advertising” because, in the long run, he does not intend to carry. I'm interested in seeing how this series plays out.
2 July 2007
at 1:18 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
“Gawd. Where will this end? How huge and invasive do we want our big brother to be? Do we really want him to have everyone's medical history at the tip of his finger? Is there a clear and present danger to us if he does not have our medical records so readily available? It seems like we are on the road to believing that thought police will protect us from all harm! I'm being forced to dig out my foil beanie!~) It's criminal.”
______________________________________________________________________
What makes you think “Big Brother” doesn't **already** have everyone's medical info “at the tip of his finger?”
The information is already out there. It's digitized, scrutinized, volumized and subsidized, every last bit and byte.
This doesn't need to go into detail. Referencing the article:
“The clerk calls my information into the FBI, and gets the go-ahead to sell me the gun. I entered the store at 1:30 p.m. and have a gun by 1:50 p.m.”
The clerk doesn't need a detailed criminal history. The clerk doesn't need a detailed medical history. The clerk doesn't need an in-depth psychological profile. The clerk only needs to hear one of two words:
“Yes”
or
“No”
That's all it takes.
—Ag
2 July 2007
at 1:30 p.m.
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Mkh (Anonymous) says…
You all must be filled with a lot of fear if you feel it is needed to carry a gun around town. I feel a bit sorry for you.
So did you guys ever decide whose was the biggest? Let's see who can pee the farthest too.
2 July 2007
at 1:30 p.m.
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bullmoose06 (Anonymous) says…
The best way for a sidearm to prevent one from becoming a victim of a violent crime is when the weapon is visible, not hidden under a shirt or in a book bag.
Besides I'm sure some of you have missed the point. The government is permitting you to carry a firearm on your person. You are giving up a portion of your constitutional rights to a government.
2 July 2007
at 1:33 p.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
Re: handguns: “They are a violent and agressive weapon.”
Handguns are inanimate objects. They cannot act aggressively or violently of their own accord. They are tools.
2 July 2007
at 1:34 p.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
right_thinker, down the front of your pants beats not having one at all, which is what happens to most ccwers in the summer time.
2 July 2007
at 1:40 p.m.
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a_flock_of_jayhawks (Anonymous) says…
If you have a weapon and draw it, please be prepared to use it. No warning shot, no shot to disable, and no brandishing. When you draw it you must be prepared and have the intention of putting a lethal shot on your target. Also, you have to be especially careful to make sure that your target doesn't take it from you, making matters much worse. You need to make sure that you do not fire upon them if they are escaping. If you have drawn your weapon, you can always back off if the situation warrants.
Some really great posts on types of weapons. Of all of the weapons I have used, a .357 delivers an adequate stopping power and is light enough to be aimed quickly and precisely. It also makes a fairly loud noise, but that's the least of worries if it is needed. A .22 is too small and will probably only irritate the attacker unless you happen to get a good shot off.
If someone decides to put themselves in a situation where it is me or them, I'll do my best to make sure it is them. I am not fearful, just prepared. If that situation arises, I can sort out the legal issues later.
2 July 2007
at 1:43 p.m.
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Newell_Post (Anonymous) says…
Agnostick:
Chad's selection of make and model should call his mental stablility into question, right there. Yikes. I know the LJW expense accounts must be minimal, but that piece of junk is more dangerous to the shooter than to the bad guy on the other end. If he's a novice shooter go with any good quality 9mm or .38 revolver.
2 July 2007
at 1:45 p.m.
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DWD (Anonymous) says…
Mkh,
That's your defense technique? Just give the criminal what he wants and hope for the best? What if he wants to rape your wife/sister/daughter/mother/whatever?
Also, giving in and cooperating hardly guarantees you'll walk away unharmed. I've seen plenty of victims who were shot, stabbed, or severely beaten even after they fully cooperated with a violent criminal. That's a chance I'm not willing to take. If you are wiling to take that chance, I hope it works out for you.
I personally don't care if you carry a gun or not. And if you want to feel morally superior for not carrying one, that's fine too. But don't knock those of us who aren't quite so willing to be victims.
2 July 2007
at 1:48 p.m.
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monkeywrench1969 (Anonymous) says…
Agnostic
I have to agree with you on the medical/mental records check. Most of the real issues come from the lack of conversation between the mental health community and the background checks. One of the main commonalities in these mass shootings is the person with the guns shooting everyone up has had a history of mental illness which cannot be checked when purchasing a gun. If someone is committed or even checks themselves into a facility it is not a crime. The mental health community needs to get on line and allow checks.
What needs to happen is if it is your right to buy a gun then it is the right of the rest of the community for you to sign off that you canhave your mental health checked as well. here is a list of people with a history of mental issues.
2 July 2007
at 1:49 p.m.
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JJE007 (Anonymous) says…
Ag, I'd prefer the government to be far less invasive/centralized and you want them up all in your mug. I think we just might have differing pholosophies!~)
I would assume that you trust the the government can and should compile and interpret medical data so that they can magically and immediately determine whether someone is fit to own a firearm. Amazing. I suspect, and suspect that you hope, this data will be tweaked over time to prevent all firearms sales outside of the everpresent black market?~) Brilliant. Golly, I was wondering why the world is becoming so much more of a beautiful, joyful and loving place. It must be this lovely, multinational corporatocracy that wants nothing but all of our information and nothing but good things for us. The patriarchy is a good thing!~p
2 July 2007
at 1:57 p.m.
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salad (Anonymous) says…
I feel alot less safe with more people carrying guns. I've seen the way you people drive, and I bet you're no better behind the trigger than you are behind the wheel.
2 July 2007
at 2:03 p.m.
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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…
salad - I'm pretty sure the bad drivers are the people that don't carry since there is such a small percentage of us and a large percentage of YOU ;-)
2 July 2007
at 2:05 p.m.
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ccchick (Anonymous) says…
anybody recomend a seecamp lws 380?
2 July 2007
at 2:06 p.m.
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monkeywrench1969 (Anonymous) says…
DWD
Too true. M is banking on the “honor” of the person who was trying rob him or more. Hey here you go…have a nice day. There have been too many examples in recent years of people giving in and the bad guy taking more than just a wallet once they realise the person will submit…maybe I can get more.
2 July 2007
at 2:37 p.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
Chief_Tonganoxie (Anonymous) says:The store is across the street from the police station and the proprietor is very knowledgable. It is not a pawn shop.
****
Thanks Chief, but I don't like overpaying for my firearms, I'll stick to the pawnshops.
2 July 2007
at 2:45 p.m.
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unite2revolt (Anonymous) says…
I own several guns but do not have a CCL. .22 Cal is the most common round responsible for gun related deaths in the US. (possibly because it is simply the most common round period) but its capacity for killing someone should not be doubted. The .22 is available in a wide variety of ammunition types, including hollow point and subsonic. I own a quality .22 cal snub nosed revolver that carries 9 rounds and several .22 rifles. IMHO a 9 rd revolver trumps a 5 rd semi-auto. revolvers never jam. i also think it is highly advisable that any first time shooter start with a .22, when you can hit a target with a .22 then move up to larger calibers until you find the one thats right for you. Shooting a .45 at a target range can be brutally punishing, and are best left to big people. I dont like to fire anything over .40 and prefer a .38. I'd rather put a .38 in my target than a .50 through a wall. For home defense forget a pistol and buy a shotgun. For a CCW get a hammerless revolver. Pick a caliber you are comfortable and accurate shooting with. Another thing this reporter did not do, was look into buying a gun from a dealer instead of a store, there are lots of guys with FFL's that sell out of their homes or other businesses and will happily order you what ever you would like. You might have to actually (Shock!) wait a few days for your gun to arrive if you order it though. And I whole heartedly agree with who ever it was that said to take an experienced shooter with you on your gun purchase. They will likely be a wealth of knowledge and not have a vested interest in unloading something hat got left at their pawnshop. I noticed the reporter didn't mention inspecting the barrel, for an example of something an experienced buddy might be able to help you with.
2 July 2007
at 3:05 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
JJE007, I'd prefer the government work cooperatively with local and state authorties in implementing the Gun Control Act of 1968—the very law that—had it been implemented properly—*MIGHT* have prevented the VTM. You, on the other hand, want to give away bazookas to toddlers. I think we just might have differing pholosophies! :)
I would assume that your distrust of the government borders on the delusionally paranoid—that the “average citizen” can and should compile all their personal data into a coffee can and bury it under a tree someplace, so's the “guhv-mint” cain't git they'se cotton' pikkin' mitts allover mah stuff. Amazing. I suspect, and suspect that you hope, this rampant paranoia of the “guhv-mint” will spread like a Lake Tahoe wildfire over time, to the point that the guhv-mint just dissolves from lack of involvement–a nation barricaded in their homes, firearms piled high to the ceiling, afraid to walk the streets because the guhv-mint might be watching? :) Brilliant! Golly, I was wondering why the NeoCon population is becoming so insanely antagonistic and confrontational. It must be this lovely, never-ending conspiracy that the guhv-mint wants nothing but all of our information, and nothing but bad things for us. Anarchy must look like a good thing to people like you, huh? :p
—Ag
P.S. This was the easiest one I've had in the long time. Maybe you should change your username to “CakeWalk?” See you in the funny papers of the latest Michigan Militia rag!! Or “Stormfront,” whichever you prefer! :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
2 July 2007
at 3:07 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
right_crackpot:
Try reading for a change. Seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA
—Ag
2 July 2007
at 3:21 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
Bowhunter99 said…. “For all of you freaks that have not grown up around guns and suddenly have the urge to buy one: ask yourself a question: 'will I be able to pull the trigger if I pull the gun out?' Because if you can't, then you're just going to provide the thief breaking into your house with a gun so he can shoot you and then sell the gun back to the pawn shop you bought it from!”
All the discussion of models, caliber and rounds are irrelevant if you can't pull the trigger (obviously emotionally not physically). It is a harder decision than you might think for many people. While almost everyone I know could, without hesitation, kill to protect their kids, many people have also told me they are unsure that they could kill to protect themselves.
Please answer this question BEFORE you buy a gun.
2 July 2007
at 3:25 p.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
“Chad bought a pistol.” I could have written this story much quicker. How'd ya drag it out for sooooo long?
2 July 2007
at 3:32 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
right_idiot foams (yet again):
“And the question that apparently doubles as an audition for America's Stupidest Criminals: Am I a fugitive of the law?” We can't *NOT* ask that question. Wonder how many thugs have just turned around and walked out when the form is whipped out?
_____________________________________________________
Exactly where in the article is Chad advocating that we don't ask that question?
Where in this thread is *anybody* advocating that we don't ask that question?
Like I said: Try reading before posting. If you actually bothered to read, your posts would be cut in half… saving us level-headed, clear-thinking individuals a lot of time and bandwidth, wading through your incessant claptrap…
—Ag
2 July 2007
at 3:50 p.m.
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JJE007 (Anonymous) says…
Beautifully dismissive, Ag. You turn more or less into all or nothing. A dearth of trust becomes anarchy. The right to keep and bear arms becomes the arming of toddlers with illegal weapons. I only wish there was more humor and less pish in your post, hole digger!~) You can kiss your assumptions good-bye. They're they're not worth the spit they were written with.
By the way, those footprints in your frosting were where I carried you!~) See. That's an example of the kind of ridiculous humor that I'm looking for from someone who winds up supporting the neocons that we both despise. I'm not the one paving their road.
- A nice agnostic
2 July 2007
at 4:03 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
You may not be paving the road, bud… but you're clearly on the Highway to Hell! :)))))))))))
Nice try…
—A prudent Agnostic :)))
2 July 2007
at 4:05 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Okay, you wanna serious question? Here ya go…
You (apparently) don't trust the government with your personal information.
Do you trust corporate America? Insurance companies? Employers?
How are any of those people/entities any better or worse than the government?
Seriously, now…
—Ag
2 July 2007
at 4:18 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
Do you trust corporate America? Insurance companies? Employers?
Nope, but they don't have standing armies and police to compel my compliance. There is no gestapo demanding that I buy a Big Mac(tm) mit extra cheese and enjoy it! It is my choice to interact with them, or not.
How are any of those people/entities any better or worse than the government?
Corporations are not allowed to legally take my life liberty or property and give it to you without my consent.
Seriously, Ag your reductio ad absurdum and hyperbole is Sophmoric at best.
2 July 2007
at 4:36 p.m.
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Scavok (Anonymous) says…
Part 1 of 3
A fine, upstanding gun owner from Greenville, NC wrote this yesterday: Here are a few things that CWP holders want people to know about them. Now of course there are exceptions to these general rules but I think you'll find these things to be true about the vast majority of your legally carrying neighbors.
1. We don't carry firearms so that we can ignore other basics of personal safety. Every permit holder that I know realizes that almost all dangerous situations can be avoided by vigilance, alertness and by simply making wise choices about where one goes and what one does. We don't walk down dark alleys. We lock our cars. We don't get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do. We park our cars in well lighted spots and don't hang out in bad parts of town where we have no business. A gun is our last resort, not our first.
2. We don't think we are cops, spies, or superheros. We aren't hoping that somebody tries to rob the convenience store while we are there so we can shoot a criminal. We don't take it upon ourselves to get involved in situations that are better handled by a 911 call or by simply standing by and being a good witness. We don't believe our guns give us any authority over our fellow citizens. We also aren't here to be your unpaid volunteer bodyguard. We'll be glad to tell you where we trained and point you to some good gun shops if you feel you want to take this kind of responsibility for your personal safety. Except for extrordinary circumstances your business is your business, don't expect us to help you out of situations you could have avoided.
2 July 2007
at 4:37 p.m.
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Scavok (Anonymous) says…
Part 2
3. We are LESS likely, not more likely, to be involved in fights or “rage” incidents than the general public. We recognize, better than many unarmed citizens, that we are responsible for our actions. We take the responsibility of carrying a firearm very seriously. We know that loss of temper, getting into fights or angrily confronting someone after a traffic incident could easily escalate into a dangerous situation. We are more likely to go out of our way to avoid these situations. We don't pull our guns to settle arguments or to attempt to threaten people into doing what we want.
4. We are responsible gun owners. We secure our firearms so that children and other unauthorized people cannot access them. Most of us have invested in safes, cases and lock boxes as well as other secuity measures to keep our firearms secure. Many of us belong to various organizations that promote firearms safety and ownership.
5. Guns are not unsafe or unpredictable. Modern firearms are well made precision instruments. Pieces do not simply break off causing them to fire. A hot day will not set them off. Most modern firearms will not discharge even if dropped. There is no reason to be afraid of a gun simply laying on a table or in a holster. It is not going to discharge on its own.
6. We do not believe in the concept of “accidental discharges”. There are no accidental discharges only negligent discharges or intentional discharges. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun “going off” was the result of negligence on somebody's part. Our recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.
7. Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed. However, there are times with an observant fellow citizen may spot our firearm or the print of our firearm under our clothes. We are very cognizant that concerns about terrorism and crime are in the forefront of the minds of most citizens. We also realize that our society does much to condition our fellow citizens to have sometimes irrational fears about firearms. We would encourage citizens who do happen to spot someone carrying a firearm to use good judgment and clear thinking if they feel to need to take action. Please recognize that it's very uncommon for a criminal to use a holster. However, if you feel the need to report having spotted a firearm we would ask that you please be specific and detailed in your call to the police or in your report to a store manager or private security. Please don't generalize or sensationalize what you observed. Comments like “there's a guy running around in the store with a gun” or even simply “I saw a man with a gun in the store” could possibly cause a misunderstanding as to the true nature of the incident.
2 July 2007
at 4:37 p.m.
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Scavok (Anonymous) says…
Part 3 of 3
8. The fact that we carry a firearm to any given place does not mean that we believe that place to be inherently unsafe. If we believe a place to be unsafe, most of us would avoid that place all together if possible. However, we recognize that trouble could occur at any place and at any time. Criminals do not observe “gun free zones”. If trouble does come, we do not want the only armed persons to be perpetrators. Therefore, we don't usually make a determination about whether or not to carry at any given time based on “how safe” we think a location is.
9. Concealed weapon permit holders are an asset to the public in times of trouble. The fact that most permit holders have the good judgment to stay out of situations better handled by a 911 call or by simply being a careful and vigilant witness does not mean that we would fail to act in situations where the use of deadly force is appropriate to save lives. Review of high profile public shooting incidents shows that when killers are confronted by armed resistance they tend to either break off the attack and flee or choose to end their own life. Lives are saved when resistance engages a violent criminal. Lives are lost when the criminal can do as he pleases.
10. The fact that criminals know that some of the population may be armed at any given time helps to deter violence against all citizens. Permit holders don't believe that every person should necessarily be armed. We recognize that some people may not be temperamentally suited to carry a firearm or simply may wish not to for personal reasons. However we do encourage you to respect our right to arm ourselves. Even if you choose not to carry a firearm yourself please oppose measures to limit the ability of law abiding citizens to be armed. As mentioned before: criminals do not observe “gun free zones”. Help by not supporting laws that require citizens to be unarmed victims.
2 July 2007
at 4:40 p.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
“Thanks Chief, but I don't like overpaying for my firearms, I'll stick to the pawnshops.”
Like the $400 price tag I saw on an undistinguished Russian M-44 in a Lawrence pawnshop? Of course, it may have had 3 $100 bills rolled up in the barrel…
2 July 2007
at 4:47 p.m.
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kneejerkreaction (Anonymous) says…
snap, a store can ask whatever price they want. It's the consumer that needs to ferret out the deals unless it's your mother who owns the store.
2 July 2007
at 5:08 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
I read between the lines just fine, right_righteousness.
As well as at both ends… in the middle… 'round the sides… and up the back!
The reference was to the “stupid criminals” that do insanely stupid things, like the bank robber who calls the police to report a power outage at the bank after he's initiated the holdup… or the sheriff's deputy who called 9-1-1 a few weeks back to complain that he and his wife thought that they were dying, because they'd gorged on hash brownies…
Here's an example of the type of person Chad is obviously referring to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUCCxG…
That's the kinda “MENSA member” that would have a felony conviction, and then walk into a pawn shop and perjure himself on a federal licensing form.
—Ag
2 July 2007
at 5:13 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
“How are any of those people/entities any better or worse than the government?
Corporations are not allowed to legally take my life liberty or property and give it to you without my consent.”
______________________________________________________
No, they're not allowed to… but some do, anyways.
Ken Lay? David Wittig? Michael Cooper?
“GCA68” was passed almost 40 years ago. The law is there… time to enforce it.
—Ag
2 July 2007
at 5:26 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
I'll say it's a bit of both…
It's partly your skewed, out-of-whack view of the world in general…
but I also think that law-abiding gun owners sometimes get a bad rap because of:
A) Gun violence, mass shootings etc.
B) The ultra-extremist nuts over at the NRA
I don't know what NRA membership numbers are like *now*… but there was a time in the past decade when membership was dropping like a rock. Members were leaving because of folks like Heston and LaPierre.
Like any other group of people, the bulk of 'em are probably okay… but you'll always have some bad apples in any barrel.
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
2 July 2007
at 6:15 p.m.
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XD45 (Anonymous) says…
I will be forwarding this info to this reporter. For accurate discussion and information regarding KS Concealed Carry please visit:
http://www.ksccw.com/site/index.php
XD45
2 July 2007
at 6:35 p.m.
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crazyks (Anonymous) says…
So a criminal who walks into a store and is asked if he's ever been found guilty of a felony is going to answer truthfully, RT?
And if he's already a criminal, do you think he will care if he's found out as a liar?
It's a stupid question to put on the form, because I would like to think they would CHECK to see if that person had ever been convicted of a felony even without the question…
2 July 2007
at 7:07 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
snap_pop_no_crackle - 3 C-notes and what else? lol! Recall seeing one of those M48's three years ago that was so rare it was tagged at $450.
Only thing bad about most gun shops is the proprietor - most I've run into have been some of the rudest, ill-informed shysters imaginable. Not all, mind ya. Just most.
2 July 2007
at 7:11 p.m.
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DWD (Anonymous) says…
Agnostick says… “B) The ultra-extremist nuts over at the NRA”
I'm not a member and I don't always know what they're up to, so could you provide some examples of extremist behavior from the NRA?
2 July 2007
at 7:22 p.m.
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crazyks (Anonymous) says…
You're probably right, cynical…and I don't have 10 grand to find out…I'll take your word for it.
Probably works the same way in which pedophiles convicted in one state, yet are still able to teach class in another state. Or how doctors who have been stripped of their license in one state find it easy enough to set up practice in another. Same with lawyers.
No system is unbeatable.
2 July 2007
at 9:04 p.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
Sounds like you are a tosser there, cynical.
2 July 2007
at 9:33 p.m.
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black_watch (Anonymous) says…
Lots of meaningless firearm commentary here; well done, gang. I like Marion's choice of M1911, but that's bit bulky and overpowered for a beginner in my opinion. I believe that the .22 purchased by the author was not only not the best choice, but not even an adequate one. Not due to the caliber - due to the quality of the weapon. The Walter P22, as discussed earlier in the comments, is a well-crafted, light-weight pistol by a well-known and major manufacturer, and is a good gun - .22 bullets are not “toys”, like some people insist. They can and will seriously injure and/or kill you - a bullet is a bullet. Drop the macho crap of “bigger is better”. That being said, since I don't have a P22, my carry weapon is a Bersa .380; a budget-priced, yet surprisingly quality firearm. .380 is slightly junior to 9mm. You can find a Bersa new for $200-300; used for around $150. I might also suggest the (much lighter and smaller than the 1911, but bigger than the Bersa) Springfield XD, which actually has some of the same features as the 1911- like the integral grip safety and side safety selectors; plus a pop-up 'chamber loaded' small indicator on the top which is very handy, and for roughly $500 new, it's a good deal. The XD comes in 9mm, .40, and .45, I believe. It's also a quality weapon, above that of the Bersa.
2 July 2007
at 11:01 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Bersas are fine firearms, as are Taurus and both not overly expensive.
Rossi's quality is right up there as well.
I confess to long standing affairs with my 1971 Walther PPK and my '55 Walther PP; ex-Surete', both in that wimpy 7.65 MM or .32 calibre but I also have both in .380 so I have the bases covered.
I am fortunate in having hands large enough to accomodate both large frame autos as well as revolvers. Those same large hands make problems for smaller firearms.
I have a highly prized S&W Model 29, in, you guessed it, .44 Magnum; vintage 1962; yep, Dirty Harry all the way as I shoot light loads with heavy bullets.
It's stablemate is a S&W 25-5 in the venerable .45 Colt.
I have in recent years become a fan of the old tried and true Colt Single Action Army in .45 Colt; often and quite incorrectly referred to as “Long Colt”; ain't no long Colt, only .45 Colt.
I also have a modern 1860 Army, probably the most beautiful revolver ever built, converted to .44 Special centerfire.
A hint for those of you who carry under sport jackets or suit coats:
Use a shoulder holster and have your tailor cut the cut while you are wearing the rig so that the jacket is a bit looser on the gun side as you can then carry with no telltale bulge. When you are not carrying, no one will notice if your tailor is good.
I can wear my double .45 Auto rig and no one is the wiser!
Heavy though.
I also have a special shoulder rig made by RPB in the 80s which allows me to carry a MAC-10 using a “concealment” 10 round mag under my jacket as well. The other side of the rig holds FIVE 32 round mags for those occasions when nothing less will do so I don't use it often; only at shoots.
Ah, well, so may fine firearms and so little money!
3 July 2007
at 9:14 a.m.
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mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says…
Wow, I didn't know there were so many people in this community who knew so dang much about personal firearms. Bonus for me!
To those of you who know what you're talking about, (ahem, Marion) I'd like some recommendations. I'm a relatively small woman with average upper-body strength and *very* small hands. I can handle larger handguns (I target practice with my big nasty .38 special, and I learned on a .45), but I've recently developed arthritis in my fingers and wrists, and am finding that it gets harder to shoot them consistently all the time. I have a bone-deep aversion to 9 mms. Plus, I'm a cheap b*stard. What firearm would you recommend? (If anyone even *thinks* the word “derringer”, I'm going to pee in their car.)
3 July 2007
at 9:33 a.m.
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ImpactWinter (Derek Dodson) says…
Mitzi, I'd suggest nearly anything in a J frame from S&W, if you're suffering from arthritis, you'll want to avoid (at least for carry) anything that requires a lot of manipulation.
A simple revolver with a clean trigger should be all you need.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wc…
3 July 2007
at 9:48 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
mitzibel:
The Walther PPK/S or one of its clones in 7.65 (.32 Calibre) would be ideal for you if loaded with good quality hollow-point rounds, such as Winchester Silvertips. I do not recommend Glasers in the smaller calibres. Recoil is low but “stopping power” is not bad with good ammo and the PPK/S series functions flawlessly.
3 July 2007
at 9:57 a.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
Mitzi, Derek's idea is a good one for lots of reasons. You might also consider Glock 21SF (Short Frame). As for a good gun store to shop OMB Police Supply in Lenexa has a good selection and are reputable: http://store.ombexpress.com/faq.html
3 July 2007
at 9:59 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Think about this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,2…
Texas Pizza Delivery Man Beaten to Death
Monday , July 02, 2007
“A 23-year-old pizza delivery man was just doing his job this weekend, delivering pizzas to hungry Texans in southeast Houston.
Then, for reasons unknown at this point by cops, one of the tires on Courtney Spect's car went flat. With hot pies in his car still undelivered, Spect began to change his tire.
But Spect never finished - a passerby soon stopped, got out of his car, and beat Spect to death before hopping back in and driving off, the Houston Police Department alleges.”
Cops said they believe the suspect was angered by Spect's driving.
Police are looking for a Ford Explorer in connection with the case. The SUV is gold or brown in color, and the plates begin with with 8-5-6, and end with a 2.
3 July 2007
at 10:25 a.m.
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mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says…
Wow, thanks! I have a lot of reading to do.
Marion, that is scary stuff. I used to deliver pizza, and several of my co-workers have been beaten savagely. One had to re-learn how to write. Oddly enough, on more than one occasion I got a very bad vibe that the folks on the sidewalk wanted more than pizza, but nothing ever happened—I assume they were all worked up to pound on a guy, and were quite suprised to have a cute chick drive up, instead. Doesn't mean I didn't wish to G-d I was packing.
Most national chains don't allow their drivers to carry concealed, even with permits in states that allow them. Several years ago, a licensed-and-armed Pizza Hut driver successfully defended himself against an armed robber, and was immediately fired for violating company policy. Crap, they'd probably have given him a bonus if he'd gotten shot, instead.
3 July 2007
at 10:32 a.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
I've got a Walther PPK/S in a .380 and it is reliable and very easy to conceal. However, I would not recommend it for someone with arthritis. I can shoot a .45 or a 9mm all day long, but that Walther will bruise my palm after a clip or two which could be a problem if you plan on practicing regularly.
3 July 2007
at 10:45 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Despite the many recommendations by the firearms fans - I would commend ImpactWinter's suggestion of 'A simple revolver with a clean trigger should be all you need.'
Semi-autos are fun, but more prone to that nightmare of “squeeze trigger - no bang”.
3 July 2007
at 11:09 a.m.
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Mkh (Anonymous) says…
So it's Illegal to carry a concealed joint of marijuana because it's a percieved danger…but it's Legal to walk around in public with a loaded .45 handgun in your waistband. Hmmmmm, yeah that makes a lot of sense.
3 July 2007
at 11:09 a.m.
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ImpactWinter (Derek Dodson) says…
I don't mean to suggest that autos are unreliable, truth is that any competently manufactured, adequately maintained firearm is almost certainly going to do its job, and do it the first time.
I merely suggested that for the untrained or… dexterously challenged (I.E. weak grip strength, arthritis/tendonitis/carpel tunnel etc) simplicity is akin to perfection.
3 July 2007
at 11:10 a.m.
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ImpactWinter (Derek Dodson) says…
and yes, Mkh,
our drug enforcement attitudes are somewhat…
…what is word…
stupid!
3 July 2007
at 11:30 a.m.
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mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says…
I hear you, IW. For the longest time I was adamantly “revolver-only”. I *love* the action on my .38 special, and it's super-easy to maintain. My only issue is with concealability and size. I wouldn't even be *having* this issue if some junkie a-hole hadn't stolen my mom's little hammerless .38. I can't remember the make, but it was a fine, fine gun.
3 July 2007
at 12:05 p.m.
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ImpactWinter (Derek Dodson) says…
Junkie A-holes, and methed-out tweakers, the bane of us all!
3 July 2007
at 6:30 p.m.
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camper (Anonymous) says…
What about going half-way and look into non-lethal technologies as a solution? I have no strong opinion on the issue, but I think leathal handguns are better to protect your home….unless one is hunting.
3 July 2007
at 10 p.m.
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camper (Anonymous) says…
Why not license stun guns for carrying protection? If a mistake were made (as will always happen), I'd rather have it be done with electricty than a bullet. A thief (or worse) can be effectively subdued with less drastic measures. Let the police take care of it from that point forward.
3 July 2007
at 11:12 p.m.
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Lonestar1 (Anonymous) says…
what ever happen to the Lawrence waiting period and police check to purchase. I did not think you could get same day service on handguns in this town…..
4 July 2007
at 1:15 a.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
The Federal five day wait law expired. Lawrence has never had any additional restrictions on the purchase or sale of firearms beyond Federal or State regulations. Interestingly, the LJW use to allow classified ads for the sale of firearms, but no longer. Oh, BTW I don't want to stun someone trying to kill me, I want to kill them and not have to deal with them in the future.
4 July 2007
at 8:06 a.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
I'm not aware of any American police departments who have given up their firearms for Tasers or any less-lethal technology. The Taser is regarded as an additional tool, not a replacement for a sidearm.
4 July 2007
at 10:32 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
I get a real kick out of the Pseud0-liberal/Neo-socialists hereabouts who will tell you that you have a right to protect yourself in your home or business but that you do not have that same right if you are walking down the street.
Funny people “liberals”.
4 July 2007
at 11:50 a.m.
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jimincountry (Anonymous) says…
I see that Missouri now has made it legal to shoot anyone breaking into your home (even tent, the article said) without being required to prove that they feared for their life. Protecting one's self on your own premises with lethal force does not make a person liable for lawsuits by the perps in Missouri!
4 July 2007
at 12:19 p.m.
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camper (Anonymous) says…
Marion, I am not a liberal nor a neo socialist (if you were referring to me). I did not say that people do not have the right to protect themselves on the street. I just posed an idea about the possibility of exploring non-leathal defense technologies. Law enforcement is continuing to explore these measures, why shouldn't we. Guns have been around for a long time, why not look for better alternatives?
4 July 2007
at 12:33 p.m.
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camper (Anonymous) says…
“I strongly believe if you need to shoot someone….give them the courtesy of shooting them with a .45.”
Marion, the goal of self-defense is to protect yourself and your loved-ones. You are promoting offensive measures. By your logic, maybe we should just throw a hand gernade at a suspective criminal.
4 July 2007
at 4:05 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Camper:
I am not going to be nice and refer to you as “Spin Doctor” but will rather call you what you are!
A liar.
A stand up, bald faced LIAR!
I challenge you to find anything in my posts in this thread which even comes close to an “offensive measure”.
I suggest defending one's self with the most effective means possible.
The only thing “offensive” around here is the repugance and foul biosolid-like odour of YOUR post.
My “logic” has never suggested or in any way indicated that “maybe we should just throw a hand gernade at a suspective criminal.”
What I have clearly stated is that if one's life is threatened that the situation should be resolved in favour of the threatened party by the safest and fastest means.
A attacker is NOT a “suspected criminal”; an attacker is a person engaged in the use of deadly force to which ANY citizen may quite reasonably respond with equally deadly force.
I merely suggest to foks how to defend themselves in the most effective manner possible.
4 July 2007
at 5:58 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
atisecularman:
Well, lap up that beer like the cur that you are.
4 July 2007
at 6 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Oh, I left off the ”;)”!
I say, that was joke, son! (Quoting Foghorn Leghorn!)
4 July 2007
at 10:11 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Three are inside, two are in their long house, two are sitting there like children watching the pretty lights and one has dug a very large hole under the back porch and has crawled into it.
He will come out in the morning for breakfast, otherwise all is well, I think.
Thanks for asking; I'll tell them that you said, “wahooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!”
6 July 2007
at 7:07 a.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
Chad, it would seem that your choice of handgun has received widespread disapproval. What is your reaction to that?
1 August 2007
at 11:12 a.m.
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dmcnev (Anonymous) says…
If you have arthritis, I would not recommend a lightweight J frame revolver. Most find the grips too small and the recoil too severe. You might take a look at the SP101 revolver in 357 Magnum. Check out both barrell lengths. I has larger grips than the J frames so it is easier to hold onto and a bit more weight which helps tame recoil. It will fire 357 Mag ammo or 38 Special. It is fairly mild with 125 grain 357 Mag. and quite tame with 38 spec ammo. If you like a semi-auto but still want some punch, the Glock 36 in 45 cal is single stack, with a slimmer grip than other Glocks. With the low axis of recoil, it seems much milder to shoot than a 1911.
As regards the article.. why would anyone buy such a low grade piece of garbage from a pawnshop for an article on CCH. He could have gone to a reputable gunshop and actually gotten good advice on a decent gun. As far as the “are you a felon” question on the form, that is simply to stack an additional federal charge onto someone if they lie about it. The criminal background check is done on the phone before the weapon is ever handed over. And no.. a cheap lawyer won't get you the gun or keep you from being arrested. As for buying a gun out of someones trunk.. criminals buy guns illegally. That is why stopping law abiding people from buying a gun does not stop criminals. Criminals purchase guns from criminals, not from gun shops. Get used to the concept.
5 August 2007
at 1:14 p.m.
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conservativepunker (Anonymous) says…
$549.00 for a glock!?! Jeez that's high! You can get a new one at Olathe Gun Shop for $515.00. If budget is a concern, go there—best prices around, usually better than Pawn Shops, Cabela's etc…also knowledgeable staff. No “Bullet Hole Snobs” there……
3 June 2008
at 9:01 p.m.
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hoosier8 (Anonymous) says…
DWD, you are just talking sense.Mkh, sounds like you don't have much experience with firearms. Sounds like the typical response that I have heard before. The “I would rather die than protect myself” nonsense. I am sure you do not have car insurance, renters or property insurance, don't wear your seatbelt, don't use smoke detectors, don't look both ways when crossing the street, etc. etc…. and when logical discussion eludes them you get this….”You all must be filled with a lot of fear if you feel it is needed to carry a gun around town. I feel a bit sorry for you.So did you guys ever decide whose was the biggest? Let's see who can pee the farthest too.This is just a tactic to try to put you on the defensive and deflect from the fact that they really do not have any reasonable responses. Mkh, what you really feel sorry for is that others do not think like you do and I bet you would be more than happy to legislate your beliefs, which is also typical.
3 June 2008
at 9:13 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
hoosier8:What you said.