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Archive for Sunday, July 1, 2007

Guns in our midst: ‘It makes the world a more dangerous place’

Lawrence resident Marilyn Roy, above, shown outside the Douglas County Court-house, is passionate in her stance against the state's concealed carry law and guns in general. She believes the proliferation of firearms makes the world a more dangerous place.

Lawrence resident Marilyn Roy, above, shown outside the Douglas County Court-house, is passionate in her stance against the state's concealed carry law and guns in general. She believes the proliferation of firearms makes the world a more dangerous place.

July 1, 2007

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Hear Lawrence resident Marilyn Roy speak about why she thinks concealed carry is a bad idea.

Hear Lawrence resident Marilyn Roy speak about why she thinks concealed carry is a bad idea.

How easy is it?

Reporter Chad Lawhorn explores firsthand what is involved in acquiring a gun for concealed carry in Kansas, in Monday's Journal-World.

Marilyn Roy closes her eyes when she speaks about guns.

At times she sees her childhood - growing up in the 1950s in Barstow, Calif. In the middle of the Mojave Desert, it was an isolated place. The most common visitor, Roy says, was a Route 66 traveler who would stop to repair a flat tire.

But there also were the booms. Sonic booms. In the middle of the Cold War, Barstow was surrounded by four military bases. Sights of tanks, jets and other weapons of war were common.

"You always grew up with that in your consciousness," Roy said.

Maybe that is why she doesn't like guns. She grew up around all that power and never felt comfortable with it.

In all honesty, she doesn't know exactly why the sight of a gun makes her think of anger, retribution and a host of other negative thoughts. But she knows that even though she can see how a concealed weapon might come in handy in a few rare situations - a carjacking, a home burglary - she still thinks the idea of an average person carrying a concealed weapon is one of the worst ideas ever.

"It gives you the power at any given moment to maim or kill anyone who you are afraid of for any reason, good or not," Roy said. "It makes the world a more dangerous place."

Turning the other cheek

When Marilyn Roy talks about parts of her past, she clutches her purse tightly. She rocks with it in her chair as she talks about the times that turned violent. Her life in Barstow, although isolated - or acultural, as she describes it - wasn't necessarily serene.

"I grew up in a troubled family," Roy said. "My family wasn't hunky-dory."

Roy, 57, found hard times on her own, too. She was forced to put her son up for adoption when he was 5, for reasons she did not disclose. Afterward, she went to Kansas City to try to start over, but instead she found a dead end. She was homeless in Kansas City and Texas for about four years.

On the streets, she saw the drugs, she saw the guns, she saw the violence. Some of it found her, too. Roy said she's been the victim of domestic violence and physical abuse on multiple occasions.

The violence left her with a choice to make. She said a person can either choose to fight violence with violence, or take the tack that violence begets nothing good.

"The consequence of violence being fought with violence just doesn't appeal to me," Roy said.

Since 1974, Roy has been spreading that message in Lawrence. That's how long she has lived in the city, spending part of the time as a student. She has a degree in psychology and runs a small home-based business called Simplify, a home/office organization business that has a motto of "supporting peaceful lifestyles." She's also on a Social Security disability related to some of the emotional scars from her past. She's likely best known to many Lawrence residents as a frequent advocate at City Hall and elsewhere for people who are disadvantaged.

"I've come to the conclusion that I was just born a pacifist," Roy said.

A disease

But when pressed, Roy concedes the point that supporters of concealed carry most often make: A gun can save your life in the right situation. She said that, sure, a gun may stop someone from hijacking your car. And also there's no guarantee that having a gun for protection will stop you from getting shot. But yes, Roy said, a gun could help you in that instance.

But still, she doesn't like the idea. Even though a hidden gun may help solve your individual problem, it makes society's problem even worse.

"When there was discussion about passing the (concealed carry) law, I thought 'please, please don't,'" Roy said. "Because I think the more means of protection that are introduced and accepted by our society, the higher the fear level goes."

In other words, she thinks concealed carry is the fuel for a vicious cycle: People buy a gun because they don't feel secure. Other people buy a gun because they don't feel secure with everybody else walking around with a gun.

Roy thinks now is a particularly bad time for concealed carry. She said society already is struggling to deal with its fears. Talk of terror dominates the news, and phrases such as "weapons of mass destruction" have become part of our lexicon.

"We as a nation have changed in how we perceive each other," Roy said. "Our trust level in each other has been seriously eroded. You see it more and more. The Homeland Security act, all the money being spent to secure airports, people more and more putting alarm systems in their cars and homes.

"I think it is a disease and an obsession. It is painful to watch."

But it also is hard to ignore. Roy said guns are now on her mind more than ever. She said it is hard not to worry about who is carrying a gun as she walks down Massachusetts Street. She said the frequent red, black and white signs proclaiming guns are not allowed in an establishment do nothing but remind people of how gun-dominant our society has become.

"The concealed gun act, having passed that here in Kansas, I'm absolutely furious," Roy said. "I think it only contributes to that level of mistrust and paranoia that has been subtly but surely built into our system, our psyches.

"I think we have lost a lot of our humanity."

Comments

Moderateguy 7 years, 8 months ago

I completely support Marylin's choice to not have a gun. Her fear about guns apparently stems largely from her violent past, time on the streets and the drug culture. I've never lived on the streets, but those are basically the same examples that cause me to choose to defend myself and my family.

The criminals, drug users, and mentally unbalanced folk she saw with guns were breaking the law, and would still be breaking the law. The laws didn't / won't stop them. Those are not the people applying for a CCH permit and going through the background check, training etc.. Marylin herself wouldn't likely be approved for a permit.

"I've come to the conclusion that I was just born a pacifist," Roy said.

I fully support her right to choose to be a sheep. I'm coming home every night to my family.

Oracle_of_Rhode 7 years, 8 months ago

I'd rather loose my car in a carjacking than own guilt from killing another human being for the rest of my life. I put another human being's life above personal property.

I mean, what's a Honda versus a offing somebody's son or father, even if that person is so poor or mentally ill or high that they are trying to take my wheels?

I mean, Jesus said turn the other cheek.

But I'm not anti-gun. If someone in my family were under attack or threat of attack, I'd take physical action then. But I'd shoot for the knees before the head shot, to try and protect my family non lethally.

For too many people, guns are just a means to power over others. Anyone outside of law enforcement that walks around town with a gun all the time is probably mentally sick -- full of fear from FOX News or otherwise paranoid.

That, or they're insecure because they're endowed like a gnat.

jonas 7 years, 8 months ago

"Marilyn Roy closes her eyes when she speaks about guns."

It's rare that an article gets to the heart of the matter so quickly. Reading the rest of it, it should have just said that she closes her mind.

mom_of_three 7 years, 8 months ago

I agree with some of her points. They are valid. I don't believe she closed her mind, just as I have not. But she sees it from a different perspective that you or I do.
I have heard all the arguments for and against and have heard all the counter arguments.

Carrying a gun is not going to guarantee that you come home at night to your family, just as not carrying a gun will not be a guarantee for me.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 8 months ago

Yesterday was "immigration day" at LJW. Today seems to be "firearms day". What will be the hot topic de jure tomorrow?

kcredeye 7 years, 8 months ago

While Marilyn Roy is certainly entitled to her opinion, it's fairly obvious that her opinion isn't based on factual evidence. Should she take the time to research the stats on the states that have had concealed carry (and some, for many years), she'd learn that in almost every case, violent crime has decreased as a result of concealed carry. She'd also discover that concealed carry citizens are the LAST people whom she should be worried about, because THEY are law abiding citizens who've gone through the process of being fingerprinted, their background checked by law enforcement, and a required concealed class that involves actual firearm usage, and a classroom instruction that covers safety, the responsibility of carrying a deadly weapon, along with expert advice on what one might expect if one uses that weapon.

Her comment, "the level of mistrust and paranoia that has been subtly but surely built into our system, psyches", is quite true! Sadly enough she is part of that mistrust and paranoia, by being afraid to trust the law abiding citizen that chooses to legaly carry a concealed, while she basically ignores the criminal element who will carry a weapon no matter WHAT the law says.

Kat Christian 7 years, 8 months ago

Oracle you make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Make up your mind. Is it black or is it white? There are no gray areas here. If someone is carjacking me and I had a gun you damn right I'll shoot the moron. I use to think the same way as you when I was younger and life was innocent until I was a victim of crime a couple of times. Obviously you haven't been. We must NOW begin to seperate humanity from evildoers. Criminals (or those who harm others) may look like humans but inside they have been consumed by a demonic spirit that is not of this world. They have no conscious, no heart and could care less if they hurt, maime, or kill an innocent person. I've seen them, you hear about them, they are all around us. If you think you can reason with these evildoers you are mistaken because there is a new breed of them, and they are getting more powerful and more resistant to human compassion. Yes it is a disease that is plighting our society. You need to understand there is no cure for these evildoers their intentions are what they are to wreck havic on good human beings. Now I don't walk around being paranoid, I just know that if one were to strike and I had a gun I would now shoot if I had to as horrible as that may sound. I don't like guns and violence- I don't even watch violent movies. I'm taking back my right to have a safe, normal and peaceful existance. If you think I'm going to sit back and wait on the government to protect may day to day safety that's crazy. Their job is to take care of the whole picture. While we citizens are part of that picture we must do our part to protect our piece of our world. That is why this was written into the constitution. It wasn't about protecting us from wild animals (the ones with 4 legs) in the wild wild west. It was the right to protect our families. I hate guns and they do carry a negative connotation and so many people have used them in so many bad ways. This is where gun laws must be enforced, heavy background checks, waiting periods, ban gun shows and personal sale of guns to only allow legal-licensed businesses to sell guns and require inspections to make certain they are following the law. People say that European countries don't have the same problems we do with gun laws, but they fail to understand their society has been and is much different then ours has been. They've not had the same freedoms we've always had, now look what too much freedom has cost us. Not saying freedom isn't bad, but as with children there needs to be structure and limitations, if you let them run wild they will be wild when they are grown. Then what do we have but chaos and people who don't know how to control themselves.

TtownKUlivin 7 years, 8 months ago

Here's a fun fact: Murders in the United States jumped 4.8 percent last year, and overall violent crime was up 2.5 percent for the year, marking the largest annual increase in crime in the United States since 1991, according to figures released by the FBI. There's some research, for starters.

itsjustmyopinion 7 years, 8 months ago

Mrs. Roy, I do not mean to be rude; however, your eyes are closed. Lets look at reality. Ever since Cain and Able there has been violence. If we lived in a chimera world (peaceful), we would not need weapons of any sort. But it an't happening.

I am not a criminal. I would not even think of stealing something....nothing! And you will never see me robbing a liquor store, a car, or a bank. It is not me that you have to worry about carrying a legal concealed gun. In fact, I am the one you want in the convenience store with you when the jerk carrying the illegal gun shooting the clerk turns toward you.

Those sonic booms and weapons of war that made you so uncomfortable are also the very booms and weaponry that gave you the very freedom you used to speak in this artical. Not every country has that, and if it wern't for weapons, we could possibly be one of those countrys.

I do not agree with the way that this country was taken from the natives, but that was a long time ago. I had nothing to do with that. I do not even agree with some of the things we have done as a country. Noenetheless, I as well as all the others that believe in a powerful military do have the ability to keep that from happening again. Be thankful for those booms and weapondry. Furthermore, be thankful for those that believe in them and use them (our soldiers).

I totally understand and respect your feeling that useing violence to fight violence is not right. I wish it were that simple. If that were true, we would not be waiting for WW III, nor would we be in Iraq, and the World Trade Center would still be standing. It is ironic, however, that the very people that one would call when a violent act is being commited understand that violent force may be necessary to cease the act.

Mrs. Roy, I am sorry you lived such a rough life. No one should have to live with that. I do wished that you could have been protected from that. Maybe (and I only say maybe) the violence would not have happend to you had you stuck a gun between the eyes of one of those jerks that did those terrible acts against you. I am not saying that would make things right, but if the criminal is not sure if his next target has a gun or not, he is less likely to commit the crime. You, having a degree in psychology, should understand that.

Owning a gun is not about power. It is more about responsibility. Responsibilty that I owe my family, the elderly, the weak, and the challenged. I wish I could have been there when the 80 something year old man was getting beat up. I would not have turned my back. Those punks would never have been able to do something like that again. I am not saying I would have killed them, but they would not do it again.

By the way, I found it ironic that both opinions used the flat tire analogy. I to hope that I never have to use force of any kind against another human.

Patriot2 7 years, 8 months ago

Have pity for Marilyn Roy. She evidently has had problems coping with society. She admits having problems in her past and from the article they still seem to have an effect on her. I don't think we should be putting to much creditability to the thoughts of someone who "clutches her purse and rocks in her chair" when she speaks of her past!

Her statement, "The consequence of violence being fought with violence just doesn't appeal to me." Of course not! The consequence of going to jail or prison for committing a crime punishable by law doesn't appeal to the criminal either.

I am relieved to read that she agrees that a gun can save your life in the right situation. That is the only situation that a law-abiding citizen would use or need to use a gun. The criminals do not wait for the right situation but will probably think twice about robbing a convenience store where the clerk has gone through the training to "protect" himself and has the ability to do so.

She's on "SSA disability" related to emotional scars from her past "and" has a degree in psychology "and" runs a small home-based business "and" is an advocate for people who are disadvantaged.

One thing I would like to know is how did she snow the SSA for disability when she obviously has the means to support herself?

50YearResident 7 years, 8 months ago

I have noticed that opponents of concealed carry have the opinion that if/when a weapon is drawn in self defense that the person it is pointed at is going to be killed. The facts are that lethal force seldom happens as a result of presenting the handgun. Most of these occurrences result in the attacker running like hell or discontinuing the attack by giving up. Even if shots are fired most of these criminals live to go to jail. Ask any policeman about how many perps they have killed while responding to violent crimes. Most of them have not even fired their weapons at a criminal, let alone killed any. So why do you think an ordinary citizen carrying a gun would automatically kill everyone he encounters?

Janet Lowther 7 years, 8 months ago

No one has the right to initiate the use of force.

The more societies live by that, the more peaceful and prosperous they are.

However there are people who will initiate the use of force, and people have not only the right, but the obligation to defend themselves.

Historically bullies have spent a great deal of time learning how to use force which other people did not. History divides them into two groups, calling some chieftains, warriors, knights, nobles and kings, and others bandits, robbers, highwaymen and terrorists.

They would spend a large portion of their time perfecting their use of force.

The advent of firearms made it possible for people with mere hours of training to kill those who had dedicated their lives to the use of force.

For the first time the pipsqueak could stand up to a bully and come away unharmed.

Needless to say the bullies were not pleased and attempted to arrogate firearms to their exclusive use. The former group by laws and the latter by simply violating the laws of the former.

Today's bullies, with the support of their cowed victims and the popular media, are using propaganda to attempt to convince the class of potential victims that firearms are the exclusive province of bullies.

Patriot2 7 years, 8 months ago

SSA? Social Security Administration.
The agency that oversees SSDI and SSI. The Social Security disability insurance program, (SSDI) pays benefits to the individual and certain family members if they worked long enough and paid Social Security taxes. The Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program pays benefits to disabled adults and children who have limited income and resources.

As to following the law? Would you be referring to having to work 2 jobs to pay bills and "taxes" to support the other 50% who choose not to work or who are very careful not to make too much so they do not loose their "low income" status.

Yes. I do follow the law. And yourself?

Moderateguy 7 years, 8 months ago

So basically, her idea of a utopian Lawrence would be to disarm all the law-abiding citizens and create a Mecca for homeless people. Hmm, anybody else see anything wrong with this picture? What color is the sky in her world?

RedwoodCoast 7 years, 8 months ago

I can remember an instance when I was about five years old. I was getting in the car with my mother so she could run some errands. "Why do I have to buckle up," I pleaded. "You're a good driver. You aren't going to crash." Her reply: "It isn't me I'm worried about. It is the other drivers."

What is my point? Just because concealed carry implies trained gun carriers, it doesn't mean that you can trust all of those carriers. To continue with this analogy, lets say that someone is an alcoholic or meth-head or becomes one while being a concealed carrier. Do you want a wasted, irrational person walking or driving around with a gun hiding legally next to their bottle of vodka or bag of meth? I sure as hell don't. I'm sure law enforcement would feel perfectly safe and secure talking to that guy. How many times have you heard: "A man entered a mall today and began waving a handgun. Fortunately, 5 men with concealed carry permits were able to subdue him." I never have. Has anyone else? Maybe off-duty law enforcement, but rarely, if ever, citizen CC. I think that there are far too many contingencies that concealed carry laws cannot address for people who are not involved in law enforcement to legally walk around with guns hiding under their clothing. You may have good intentions with your CC all of the time, but who is to say that all legal carriers will have good intentions all of the time. No one can. I grew up around guns and have considered purchasing one, but that doesn' mean that I want to or should walk around with it in public.

itsjustmyopinion 7 years, 8 months ago

jrlii,

Really... you think the thugs in downtown KC have dedicated thier lives to learning how to shoot, or knife someone, or learned a martial arts discipline???? Please tell you you are being sarcastic. After reading what you wrote, please tell me where you grew up and what schools you went to. I can then ensure that my children do not attend the same illusion filled educational process that you attended. I would hate for my children to interpret live the way that you have.

Guns are not the exclusive weapon of criminals. I am not sure where you got that. In fact, I remember recently viewing, on the national news, an old man getting beat up by a couple of idiots. No gun used, and still no one stepped in to help out. Can you explain that one....wait, nevermind. If I was in the mood for comedy, I would go to a club.

itsjustmyopinion 7 years, 8 months ago

I'll tell you how to solve this whole thing. Lets devide the country in two. Leave the current legal system as is. Those that legally carry concealed go to one side, and all those that don't belive in it or are against it or that don't want it on the other. This will allow us to live in the ideal worlds that we think are the better or safer. Then lets see which has the higher crime rate. We will even break it down to most shootings - accidental or intended.

To make things even more interesting, lets include spliting the US/Mexico border in that.

staff04 7 years, 8 months ago

I'll just repeat my post from the other article here. I would fully support open carry for law abiding, responsible gun owners. I feel that open carry, unlike concealed carry, actually has more potential to deter crime and gun violence overall.

Oracle_of_Rhode 7 years, 8 months ago

I bet most of you who would shoot to kill rather than turn the other cheek -- as Jesus Christ told us to -- hate gays because of something you think it says in the Bible.

Thou shalt not kill. Does that ring a bell with any of you bloodthirsty pistol packers? It's from Matthew 5:21.

I guess you can go on with all your glorious ravings about killing people, as long as you're not pretending to be Christians. If you think you're a Christian and you carry a gun and are willing to kill to protect your Toyota, I feel sorry for you.

As a refresher, here are the DIRECT words of Jesus Christ:

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." [Matthew 5:9]

"Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." [Matthew 5:39]

"I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute you." [Matthew 5:44]

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy [Matthew 5:7]

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. [Matthew 6:15]

So, friends, if you choose to call ME a pathetic, out of touch, wimpy liberal...you should go ahead and say the same thing about Jesus Christ, whom I am attempting to follow. And, if you do call me a fool, please don't call yourself Christian. For thereby you insult Christ's message.

I don't know what religion you practice. I imagine you worship your possessions and your guns most of all.

For that, I am sorry for you.

50YearResident 7 years, 8 months ago

staff04 wants open carry for law abiding, responsible gun owners, to deter crime. Lets say this is passed into law. Now you are sitting in McDonalds eating your lunch and 15 people walk in with guns on their hip openly displayed. Who is going to check to see if each of the fifteen has a legal permit? How are you going to tell if 5 or more of these people are criminals with felony records. Do you think you would actually feel safe finishing your meal? My guess is the restaurant would be evacuated immediately except for the 15 carriers and the swat team would be called. Can you see a problem with open carry yet?

50YearResident 7 years, 8 months ago

Concealed Carry: You are sitting in McDonalds eating your lunch, 15 people walk in dressed in casual attire and a couple in suits, 5 of these have a concealed permit with a gun under their shirt out of sight. Are you going to get nervous about your safety and get up quickly to exit the restaurant? I don't think anyone would get up and leave before finishing their meal. Why? Because there is no perceived threat of being harmed and the permit holders will never reveal their presence unless they are threatened with harm to their self and I wouldn't blame them if you were attacked and they didn't come to your aid because of liability consequences.

Sigmund 7 years, 8 months ago

I've read both articles profiling Ms. Roy and Mr. Dyer. I have to say LJW did a good job of finding two very likable people on opposite sides of the issue to represented their positions. While these articles are unlikely to change any minds I think these two portraits are first class journalism.

Newell_Post 7 years, 8 months ago

Oracle:

  1. Many authorities argue that Matthew (and the sixth commandment) are properly translated, "Thou shalt not commit murder." "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'....(NIV translation). Self defense is not murder.

  2. I own a Colt Peacemaker. Does that make me blessed?

staff04 7 years, 8 months ago

50:

See my post on the other article re: this issue.

Wilbur_Nether 7 years, 8 months ago

I think Roy's position stems from a tragic and erroneous assumption about human nature--that people are both self-interested and rational. Were that the case, she would be correct in that there would be no need for concealed carry. Unfortunately, too few people are rational, self-interested individuals.... It fascinates me, having read both articles (and their associated comments) and finding it appears that both proceed from the same misassumption about human nature.

mom_of_three 7 years, 8 months ago

I didn't know concealed carry was to deter crime. I thought it was for protection.
But you think open carry would deter crime? It would probably be what the other post said - too many people worrying if the guy with a gun had a permit, or if he was the criminal. Probably basic situation as there is now, except we don't know who is carrying the gun. Would the bad guys be the ones with the gun tucked inside their pants and the good guys would be the ones with the holster??

50YearResident 7 years, 8 months ago

if all legal carriers had their gun in plain sight on their belt holster, the criminal element would still hide theirs out of sight anyway just like now. The only thing to be gained would be the panic caused in people like you that get terrified by seeing weapons openly displayed. The real criminal would just wait till the open carriers left the area to commit his intended crime. He would know when it is safe to continue his unlawful deed. The element of the unknown (the possibility of a concealed carrier close by) is what makes this work against criminals.

Patriot2 7 years, 8 months ago

Oracle......... "An eye for an eye"..........

itsjustmyopinion 7 years, 8 months ago

oracal of rhode,

You quote the bible a lot, and I think that is great. However, as I read what you wrote, I have to ask myself if Jesus would talk to his children that way. What about laying your life down for another? What about all the wars that God himself ordered in the Bible?What about Peter taking the ear of a Roman soldier with a sword? Peter was not going for the soldier's ear. He was going for his head. Roman soldiers were equivalent to special forces of today. Had that not been a Roman soldier, Peter would have taken his head off...to protect Jesus. If that were me today and Jesus was standing next to me, I would have shot the guy. Sure I would have ended up dead, but how great would that be to stand before God and Him knowing I gave my life for his son. OK I am going way deep, but I hope you get the point.

Newell_Post 7 years, 8 months ago

Actually, it was one of the High Priest's guards (not a Roman soldier) who got de-eared in the sword fight. (John says it was a guard named Malchus.) Only John says it was Peter who struck the blow. The other gospels just say it was one of Jesus' (unnamed) companions. As if any of this makes any difference....

jonas 7 years, 8 months ago

"to protect Jesus. If that were me today and Jesus was standing next to me, I would have shot the guy. Sure I would have ended up dead, but how great would that be to stand before God and Him knowing I gave my life for his son. OK I am going way deep, but I hope you get the point."

It seems you forgot one of the primary lessons of Christ's life, if you think he would have approved of you killing someone to protect him from death.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years, 8 months ago

RedwoodCoast says Just because concealed carry implies trained gun carriers, it doesn't mean that you can trust all of those carriers...lets say that someone is an alcoholic or meth-head or becomes one while being a concealed carrier. Do you want a wasted, irrational person walking or driving around with a gun hiding legally next to their bottle of vodka or bag of meth? I sure as hell don't. I'm sure law enforcement would feel perfectly safe and secure talking to that guy.


Let me get this straight...You are worried about "legally" armed meth heads?~) Don't you think that the legally armed meth heads would be shot by the illegally armed meth heads or perhaps by trained, gun carrying, law enforcement meth heads and alcoholics. That's some funny stuff. I certainly hate the idea of legally carrying meth heads. They're heavy. Don't worry though, being a meth head is illegal, so they're all in jail being sold drugs by legally carrying meth dealer alcoholic officers. Crazy talk on both sides now!~)

ccchick 7 years, 8 months ago

Her logic is histerical. I really would like to also hear her views on a more 'diplomatic' approach with Iran. For even more Sh*#$ and giggles I'd love to hear hear her views on Hillary Health Care!!

StephenCCH 7 years, 8 months ago

RedwoodCoast: "How many times have you heard: "A man entered a mall today and began waving a handgun. Fortunately, 5 men with concealed carry permits were able to subdue him." I never have. Has anyone else?" It's pretty rare that 5 licensed persons would be in the same place (except maybe outside the DMV on January 3rd). I've read plenty of such stories involving 1 or 2 citizens. If you like I can post some links.

"God said to Noah, "from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man" (Gen 9:5-6)

"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed" (Ex 22:2)

"Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied." (Luke 22:35-38)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" (Bill of Rights)

Carrying a firearm while under the influence if drugs or alcohol is against the law, just like carrying it without a license. It's going to happen whether there's a law or not. The demographic that obtains concealed carry licenses are statistically less likely to commit crimes than everyone else.

angie291975 7 years, 7 months ago

staff04: Wouldn't the more effective deterrent be that criminals will think twicw, since people are more scared of the unknown? Open carry may deter to the people carrying openly but what about the people like myself that realize I could carry but don't feel I would personally. I certainly don't oppose law abiding citizens that have gun knowledge and learned gun safety opting to carry. I also think those few will cause criminals to wonder if other people like myself are also carrying and then deters overall crime, not just those with a gun exposed on their hip. If one doubts this, all you need to do is look at the statistics. In fact, in Florida tourists were being targeted by their rental cars, and being assaulted, robbed and essentially becoming a target for crime. Once Florida decided that gave them a bad rap and passed a law to carry concealed, low and behold the crime significantly decreased. There can always be negative facts but I think that the law abiding citizens that are educated on gun safety certainly will outweigh the negative...after all right now people are carrying concealed, we call them criminals.

And Oracle: I am Christian, and I would think that although those quotes are accurate you're also missing those times that God called people to also go and fight. It is not black and white, nor does it conflict with each other but I thought I'd offer you to go look those verses up also. I also think that although the Bible is a universal advice and helps us live our life, that there isn't anywhere in there that speaks diretly of concealed weapons. I do however know many places that speak out against judging others...because only God can judge who is Christian. If you want those verses and don't have a large Concordance for study I will be happy to look those up for you as well.

angie291975 7 years, 7 months ago

staff04: Wouldn't the more effective deterrent be that criminals will think twicw, since people are more scared of the unknown? Open carry may deter to the people carrying openly but what about the people like myself that realize I could carry but don't feel I would personally. I certainly don't oppose law abiding citizens that have gun knowledge and learned gun safety opting to carry. I also think those few will cause criminals to wonder if other people like myself are also carrying and then deters overall crime, not just those with a gun exposed on their hip. If one doubts this, all you need to do is look at the statistics. In fact, in Florida tourists were being targeted by their rental cars, and being assaulted, robbed and essentially becoming a target for crime. Once Florida decided that gave them a bad rap and passed a law to carry concealed, low and behold the crime significantly decreased. There can always be negative facts but I think that the law abiding citizens that are educated on gun safety certainly will outweigh the negative...after all right now people are carrying concealed, we call them criminals.

And Oracle: I am Christian, and I would think that although those quotes are accurate you're also missing those times that God called people to also go and fight. It is not black and white, nor does it conflict with each other but I thought I'd offer you to go look those verses up also. I also think that although the Bible is a universal advice and helps us live our life, that there isn't anywhere in there that speaks directly of concealed weapons. I do however know many places that speak out against judging others...because only God can judge who is Christian. If you want those verses and don't have a large Concordance for study I will be happy to look those up for you as well.

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