Shootings raise questions about concealed-carry law in Kansas / LJWorld.com

Archive for Wednesday, April 18, 2007

April 18, 2007

Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius on Tuesday ordered flags to be flown at half-staff because of the deadly shootings at Virginia Tech.

"This horrific crime shocks the conscience and raises the question of whether such an event could happen here in Kansas," Sebelius said.

The governor's order is in keeping with President Bush's order that all U.S. flags at federal locations be flown at half-staff through the rest of the week.

"This tragedy reminds us we must be vigilant in our surroundings, whether at school, at work or in our communities," Sebelius said.

The governor also noted that a special commission was formed earlier this year to study ways to improve safety in public schools.

"I'm making the expertise of this group and our homeland security officials available to our colleges and universities as they work to ensure a safe learning environment for students," she said.

Kansas Attorney General Paul Morrison echoed Sebelius' comments.

"Our children, faculty and staff deserve a safe learning environment," he said. "My office will continue to work with the governor, school officials and local law enforcement to determine how to improve violence prevention and the safety of Kansas schools."

The Virginia Tech incident has led to a new debate in the U.S. about concealed-carry weapons laws.

Guns are not allowed on the Virginia Tech campus. Kansas has a concealed-carry gun law, but that law still forbids carrying concealed weapons in any "community college, college or university facility."

Jeff Howlett, owner of Kansas Firearms Specialties in Tonganoxie, is an avid proponent of the concealed weapons law. He thinks campuses are "setting themselves up" for similar shooting incidents by not allowing concealed weapons to be carried by law-abiding people on campus. "Cops don't respond as fast as you can respond yourself," he said.

Howlett also said it is unfortunate the shooting incident is going to be blamed on guns instead of a person.

"It's sad to see students had to go through something like that, but it's also sad that people solve their problems by taking it out on other people like that," he said.

Kansas University representatives will not be lobbying for any change that would allow concealed weapons on campus, spokesman Todd Cohen said.

"No. We observe the state law," he said.

Discussion

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18 April 2007
at 6:27 a.m.

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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…

In other news, this will be the news item of the month. Rammed down our throats about as much as the entire 9-11 incident and the O.J. Simpson trial. In the end, a few token gestures will be made, and this will provide an excellent smoke screen to prevent people from seeing other vital things, such as the Iraq fiasco, or Medicare falling apart at the seams, or our $4 a gallon gasoline.

Sad, yes. But there was virtually nothing that could have been done about this incident. Not without turning the school into a prison, and a pricey one at that.
18 April 2007
at 11:15 a.m.

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jrlii (Anonymous) says…

Sitting ducks. That is what students in classrooms are: Both students and faculty members are forbidden to possess any reasonable means of self-defense.

You can bet that if Professor Librescu, the hero of the day, had been armed, the attack would have ended there.

Prof. Librescu had decades of experience of living in a society where only government thugs were armed. He then spent years in Israel, a society under siege. I reckon he would have known what to do.

Anyone fool enough to try such an attack at an Israeli University would die in a hail of bullets after the first shot.

There hasn't been a school shooting in Israel in decades. Why? Pretty much ALL the responsible adults in a school are armed. At the universities, pretty much everyone is armed.
18 April 2007
at 11:48 a.m.

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sinedie (Anonymous) says…

And that's exactly why Israel is one of the safest places in the world to live and go to school.
18 April 2007
at 12:24 p.m.

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bevy (Anonymous) says…

At my daughter's elementary school, all classes had a brainstorming session on what they would do if an attacker came in. The idea being that he or she would probably kill as many as they could, so the kids might as well try to defend themselves. Their solution? We'll throw our math books at him! (They are 4th graders, and that is the heaviest book in their desks).

They also discussed how and where to hide in the classroom to avoid being seen during an attack. Their classroom doors are locked at all times now.

This is so sad…but at least they are talking about what to do.
18 April 2007
at 1:37 p.m.

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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

And then the moon will turn into butter and fall on our pancakes.
18 April 2007
at 4:06 p.m.

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RETICENT_IRREVERENT (Anonymous) says…

When I read I_Did's post, I hear sarcasm.

I present a 13 year old's wisdom….

A few days ago, my son told me this:
Utopian societies suck, you have no freedoms.
Everyone is the same, and it is boring.
To know what really is good, don't you need to see the bad?
18 April 2007
at 4:25 p.m.

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BigAl (Anonymous) says…

reticent.. Absolutely spot on. There is good in everyone, even George W. Bush. He is best used as a bad example.

18 April 2007
at 5:04 p.m.

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BigAl (Anonymous) says…

I_DID.. Perfect description of the George W. Bush view of government. Ties right in with his Patriot Act and Big Brother.
18 April 2007
at 5:46 p.m.

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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…

Everyone here is acting like this school shooting rampage was at an elementary school. For everyone's information, this happened at a college. People there were legally adults. Totally different environment. Sure, guns aren't allowed there, but that is another issue. College students have a mind of their own, and if somebody is determined to hurt others, they will find a way. Whether it be making home-made bombs, rampaging about with guns (which were legal quality pistols), setting the buildings on fire, poisoning the water/food supply or even setting loose a large group of rabid weasles. This is a typical knee-jerk reaction resulting from a horrid incident that makes people scared. However, I doubt if little could be done, or should be done to try to eliminate it.

The only real concern is that there is a distinct possibility that the actions of certain faculty members, and the local police department could have prevented a number of those deaths. However, that again is another issue entirely.
18 April 2007
at 6:41 p.m.

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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

Fill in the blanks ” Don't _ _ _ _ the troll.”
18 April 2007
at 7:09 p.m.

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crazyks (Anonymous) says…

Most college students are under the legal age for drinking, too…does that usually stop them? No…

There are rules on a lot of college campuses, especially those that don't have co-ed dorms, about people of the opposite sex visiting your room past a certain time of day. Does that stop the students? No…

There are rules at some colleges about students not being allowed to bring cell phones to class. Does that stop the students? No…

So what makes you think that just because they're not supposed to carry guns on campus that all of them listen?
18 April 2007
at 7:53 p.m.

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George_Braziller (Anonymous) says…

“In a free society there are penalties to be paid for the freedoms which we enjoy and some of those penalties involve people who should not necessarily be able to do certain things being able to do them.”

Marion - Tell that to all the students and faculty who are dead.
18 April 2007
at 8:30 p.m.

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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…

The events in VA had little to do with kansas concealed carry.

The real issue is access to handguns and semi-automatic and automatic weapons.

It is far too easy to legally purchase a firearm, and there are too few checks and safeguards, common-sense measures that would prevent those with criminal records and mental problems from legally obtaining weapons.

Cho was in a mental hospital in 1995, and he clearly had psychological problems at VaTech.

Yes, he could have obtained a weapon illegally, but it was far too easy for this unstable, sick individual to drive ro Roanoke and buy weapons over the counter.
18 April 2007
at 8:30 p.m.

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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…

Sorry, he was in a mental hospital in 2005.
18 April 2007
at 8:39 p.m.

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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…

Having said that, the NRA and “big gun” have won. There is very little now to be done in terms of gun control. The gun lobby is so powerful and has been so successful that any politician suggesting gun control measures will be defeated.

It is time to give up the ghost on gun control. Chalk it up as one of those things. Bite the bullet, so to speak, and live with the occasional shooting and mass killing that we have witnessed.

Too many good politicians and good political ideas have gone down because of gun control as a wedge issue.

When it stops being a wedge issue, maybe people and politicians (right-wing politicians) will come to their senses and pass some common-sense measures to safeguard gun purchases.

But, for centrist and left-wing politicians, stay away. Gun control will spell your political doom.

18 April 2007
at 8:50 p.m.

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Lynn731 (Anonymous) says…

If at least one armed civilian had been in that building, he/she could have stopped the murders. Just one other reason why the long list of places where concealed carry permit holders are prohibited from carrying their firearms, should be re-evaluated. There have been many such incidents in schools. The schools that are fortunate enough to have school resource officers (law enforcement) are afforded good protection. The ones that do not, including universities, leave the students almost totally vulnerable. These criminals are not stupid, even if they are mentally ill. They know they can go in there, kill many people at will, and either commit suicide or escape before law enforcement arrives. The list of places where concealed carry permit holders are prohibited from carrying is too long. It needs to be looked at again, just for this reason. Thank you, Lynn
18 April 2007
at 8:57 p.m.

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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…

Lynn,

If an armed civilian had shot the boy and the police came in, they would see a man with a gun standing among dead bodies.

Who would they shoot then? Would they believe the man's claims? Would they be cogent and deliberate enough to listen to nearby witnesses?

Or would they shoot the man holding the gun standing among dead bodies?

It is true that if someone had a firearm, they could have shot him. But it opens up a whole new set of problems for law enforcement if everyone is packin'.

Not to mention that living in a society where everyone is armed is not an appealing prospect.
18 April 2007
at 9:34 p.m.

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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

“But it opens up a whole new set of problems for law enforcement if everyone is packin'.” Policemen had better be considering that possibility already.
Last year in Texas, I was stopped for having a brake light burned out. I informed the officer that I was carrying a concealed weapon & showed him my permit. He asked me if I was carrying at that moment. I said yes. He ran my license & checked out my concealed carry permit. Then he gave my license and permit back to me, advised me to get my brake light fixed the next day & drove off. It was no big deal.
Not everybody is going to choose to carry. I don't see anybody demanding that all people go armed. I do want to retain the right to choose for myself.
19 April 2007
at 2:09 a.m.

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hornhunter (Anonymous) says…

nutCase,
A person does not need a CC permit to carry a weapon , just strap in on to your hip. You sound like you are anti-gun, are you? People like you are the dangerous ones, wanting to make up stupid laws to cover laws already in place. Hope you don't have a cituation where you need help for someone who carries one legally. In Texas after the CC law was put into place the crime rate dropped. Do you have any ideas why?
You said in your post earlier, “Actually, problem is. Too many nutcases think that right to own a gun is Constitution”, I beleive you need to read it again. Does, right to bear arms mean any thing to you? No nut cases don't need them, responsible people can. I have my choice, and I don't leave home without it. I grew up around guns and glad I was shown how to use them and treat them with respect.
19 April 2007
at 6:22 a.m.

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warthog (Anonymous) says…

The only reason one would need to carry a gun is that you think you might have to shoot someone. You're not carrying it to shoot at tin cans or bottles. You hare carrying a weapon that is used to end another person's life. Who is prepared for that? Suppose more than one person had been carrying a gun at VT. If someone had shot the gunman, and then another armed individual had stepped into the hallway… sees an armed man and shoots. That's a judgement call that not many could or should make. Even law enforcement professionals get it wrong sometimes. Are you willing to take that chance?

Does the required training include shooting while someone else is shooting back at you? I would think that unless you are military or ex-military, you have no experience at such a thing. And that is not part of the requirements.

I'm sure it's nice to think, “If I had been there, I could have made the difference. I could have been the hero and saved the day.” Or you could just be another victim who hesitated.

I am not anti-gun or anti-hunting. I am just pro common sense and people carrying guns around because it gives them a false sense of security is not common sense.
19 April 2007
at 8:18 a.m.

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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

Here's one thing you don't have to suppose about, what happens when a crazy gun with a gun bursts into a room of unarmed people & starts shooting?
19 April 2007
at 8:34 a.m.

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JumporFall (Anonymous) says…

USD 497 just received a bomb threat.
19 April 2007
at 8:47 a.m.

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ModSquadGal (Anonymous) says…

For God's sake people… get a grip! What is up with calling in a bomb threat. It's bad enough that this tragedy in Virginia occurred, but to punctuate it with a childish act like calling in a bomb threat? If you've got nothing better to do with your time, or you are serious, or truly side with the deranged idiot who shot all those kids, do us all a favor and put a gun to your head and leave the rest of us out of it.

GROW UP.

19 April 2007
at 10:04 a.m.

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jrlii (Anonymous) says…

The training for concealed carry does teach procedures for dealing with law enforcement: If you have not re-holstered your piece by time the cops arrive, drop it immediately.

The folks I know who carry on a routine basis, carry just in case they need to defend themselves. Do they expect to need to use their weapon? No, not at all. Will they use it if their life is endangered? Absolutely. Even in this county where the prosecutor does not believe in self-defense.

“Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.”
19 April 2007
at 2:19 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

greyheim obviously hasn't carried payroll or other valuable items on a regular basis.
19 April 2007
at 3:35 p.m.

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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

I'll add a lightning rod to my concealed carry rig.
19 April 2007
at 4:19 p.m.

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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…

I am amazed at how many people think that police and military personell are so much more well suited to handling the pressure of a dangerous situation. What a joke. A 76 year old teacher thought clearly enough to save the lives of many students. A young student and his friend thought clearly enought to use a table to prevent the killer from getting in the class, saving many students. The police are not required to nor can they protect each individual. How many lives did Todd Beamer save on 9-11.

You sound like the helpless sheep that has to look to the sheepdog to spare you from the attacks of the wolf.

Most people are very well adapted to making clear decisions in the face of danger. Why do you think most heros deny being heros? It is because they know that other people that would have done exactly what they did in a given situation. We sound like wimps the way we carry on sometimes but most everyone has a little hero in them. Lets take responsibility upon ourselves to be ready when its our turn to step up to the plate.
19 April 2007
at 4:49 p.m.

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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…

The professor gave his life to save students. Beemer gave his life to save people in what ever building that plane was headed for. With a gun in hand maybe they could have saved thier own lives. When only the cops and the bad guy have guns it forces us to look to the cops for help or do the best we can without them. Those trained to carry could do better with a gun.
19 April 2007
at 5:59 p.m.

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as_I_live_and_breathe (Anonymous) says…

Perhaps the fact that he could get a gun prevented him from loading up a car with explosives and driving it into a crowded building and killing 10 times more people.

He could have poisoned the air vent or food and water.

Crazy Evil demons will find a way.
19 April 2007
at 6:35 p.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

“I don't agree with taking away 2nd amendment rights but that was put in the Constitution at a very different time and 99% of the time carrying a gun around is providing a false sense of security, even if you know how to use it.”
_____________________________________________

Okay then.

I have linked to this idea so many times on this forum that I'm… going to do it AGAIN. And this time, for all the lazy ones, I'm even going to print the idea itself…

********************************************

Section 1. The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

Section 2. The right of the people to keep arms reasonable for hunting, sport, collecting, and personal defense shall not be infringed.

Section 3. Restrictions of arms must be found to be reasonable under Section 2 by a two-thirds vote of Congress in two consecutive sessions of Congress before they can be forwarded to the President for approval.

********************************************

http://www.usconstitution.net/constto…

Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
http://www.uscentrist.org
19 April 2007
at 6:43 p.m.

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StephenCCH (Anonymous) says…

“Actually, problem is. Too many nutcases think that right to own a gun is Constitution. It isn't.”
I'm assuming you meant to say the right is not in the constitution. Here I agree. The right to be armed is one of those inalienable rights. The 2nd amendment prohibits the government from infringing upon that right.

I find it disturbing nutcase that someone with the background you claim has so little respect for the people you served. I would expect law enforcement to protect my rights.

“That is problem, if some CC nut in Va had had a gun, how many more would have died? Just because an idiot has a gun doesn't mean he has a clue on what to do in a situation.”
I think the course of action is pretty clear; eliminate the madman shooting innocent people.

Folks, if an armed citizen chooses to prevent murders that's his choice. If he ends up getting killed by the bad guy or by good guys, he's still no more dead than if he had done nothing. The only one with something to lose is the criminal.
Please remember too that in this case, as in many others, the criminal killed himself. If I ever have to shoot some one, I can put the gun away long before the police show up.
“The professor that saved his students didn't do it with a gun. Beamer did not use a gun. That's what I'm trying to say. I never asserted we should only look to police and others to protect us. I also never said that people shouldn't step up in times of crisis. You don't need to have a gun in order to do that.”

Absolutely correct. However, firearms can be extremely useful in stopping people shooting at you (that's why the police and military have them)

I've been a soldier for going on 10 years now. The military does not have secret ninja scrolls on firearms mastery any more than the police do. Anyone can become as or more proficient in the use of arms than an average soldier. I've bought guns specifically for the purpose of supplementing my military training.

19 April 2007
at 11:17 p.m.

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StephenCCH (Anonymous) says…

“The gun lobby is so powerful and has been so successful that any politician suggesting gun control measures will be defeated.”
That's democracy for you. The NRA is powerful because it has a large membership, over 3 million members. They don't kidnap people like gypsies in the night; people actually pay money to support them.
Gun control measures fail because they are unpopular, not because of some conspiracy. Conspiracies generally don't have 3 million members and an untold number of unofficial supporters.

“We may not have the safest society but it's not a war zone.”
That's why I'm just carrying the handgun and not a rifle. I also leave the body armor at the office.

“99% of the time carrying a gun around is providing a false sense of security”
So I'm only truly secure when I don't carry a gun?

“You hare carrying a weapon that is used to end another person's life. Who is prepared for that?”
Impossible to tell unless you have. If and when the time comes, I'll find out. I'd be rather disappointed to find out I can stop a killer but not have the means to do so.
So, who is prepared? How about these guys:
http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/20…
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_hom…
http://www.ksnt.com/news/local/530036…
http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?opti…
http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/cont…
Plenty more where that came from.
9 May 2007
at 11:28 p.m.

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kcredeye (Steve Burrows) says…

As accurately pointed out in previous posts…..the National Rifle Association of America is powerful because, millions of law abiding citizens are paid members. The “Gun Lobby” is basically powerful, because millions of common citizens who support the Second Amendment, provide the support to MAKE powerful lobbies. Millions and millions of law abiding Americans refuse to be disarmed, and that's not likely going to change anytime soon!