Kan. teaching pool can't stanch leaks / LJWorld.com

Archive for Monday, July 21, 2008

Poor retention rates a major factor in statewide shortages

July 21, 2008

Fighting the looming teacher shortage in Kansas is a bit like taking a swing at a shadow.

You can take potshots into the dark and hope something lands, but until you know the enemy in front of you, there's no way to mount a good defense. And therein lies the problem, said Kansas University School of Education Dean Rick Ginsberg.

"The numbers are so vague in this state," he said. "We don't know how many teachers are truly needed everywhere."

What they do know is that record numbers of teachers are nearing retirement age, there is a rising number of long-term vacancies in rural and inner-city school districts, and fewer college students are training to become teachers.

Ginsberg said Kansas universities were faced with the mammoth task of solving the problem.

According to the National Education Association, about 20 percent of new teaching hires in the United States leave the classroom within two years. The NEA said many teachers surveyed claimed they felt overwhelmed by unrealistic expectations and were underpaid.

Possible fixes

Ginsberg said there was a real shortage of high school math and science teachers. The pay - the average starting annual salary for a teacher in Kansas is about $29,202 - is a huge deterrent when the average salary for a chemical engineer in Kansas is around $80,000.

With a weak economy, Ginsberg said it had become harder to convince the younger generation to enter the teaching field. He did say the School of Education had accepted more students this past year than in recent years, but the situation was far from ideal.

KU recently launched a program called UKanTeach, a joint venture between the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences and the School of Education. Through the program, students receive a bachelor's degree in either math or sciences, along with a teaching license. The program aims to lure more students into teaching math and science.

Other states are looking at ways of simply making it easier to work as a teacher.

Missouri lawmakers passed a bill this spring that would allow anyone with a bachelor's degree to enter a program where they could receive a teaching license, providing they pass a test within a year showing they have an expert's grasp on the subject.

Rusty Rosenkoetter, coordinator of educator certification for the Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education, said it was too early to say how effective the bill might be, considering it doesn't go into effect until August. Even then, she said, it would be up to three years before Missouri had any solid data.

The bill has proven controversial. Rosenkoetter said opponents of the bill worry that people without an education background won't be well equipped to teach children.

"There are a lot of unanswered questions about what effect it will have on the classroom," she said.

Nailing down the problem

Because it isn't entirely known why the state has retention issues, officials say it's difficult to find a solution. And it's not as simple as saying there aren't enough teachers, Ginsberg said.

"There's something like 75,000 licensed teachers in the state of Kansas," he said. "We only have around 33,000 actually teaching. That should tell you something."

Ginsberg drew a comparison to a leaky bucket. No matter how much you fill it by recruiting new students, if you can't retain them, it's an exercise in futility.

And while rural Kansas school districts often have incentives, including offering financial help with continuing education and English as a second language certification, many districts remain strapped.

Bonnie Deiter, assistant superintendent for Ulysses public schools in southwest Kansas, said that while her district had done well filling positions this past year, the three remaining tended to be the hardest to fill: high school math, middle school math and high school art.

Kent McDonald, a science teacher and coach at Lawrence High School, was a geologist prior to becoming a science teacher. McDonald said he felt that money was a huge factor in turning people off to teaching science.

"I could make three to four times as much as I do now if I wanted to go back into, say, petroleum geology," he said.

Alan Gleue, physics teacher at LHS and science department chairman, agreed with McDonald. Gleue said it wasn't just the economics of teaching, but the paperwork and keeping track of student data for the No Child Left Behind act as well.

However, Gleue said it was the sense of duty that kept many teachers in their jobs.

"I still have the quixotic feeling that I make a difference," he said. "Most teachers who stay with teaching have the feeling they're contributing something to society outside of receiving a paycheck."

Discussion

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21 July 2008
at 6:22 a.m.

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davidsmom (Anonymous) says…

NCLB is a huge factor. Not only is the implementation a nightmare and it is underfunded, but it is based on the ridiculous premise that all children can achieve at virtually the same level. It also punishes teachers, schools and entire districts for the results of failures in the home. It does not need to be overhauled. It needs to be scrapped.
21 July 2008
at 6:53 a.m.

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deskboy04 (Anonymous) says…

You could pay teachers more…I'll bet that would get more people to go into the field. Of course most of the money goes to the administrators.
21 July 2008
at 7:57 a.m.

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Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…

“most of the money goes to the administrators.”=======Oops! Check your figures. State-wide, 70+% of the money goes to staff salaries. Typically, this breaks down to about 50% to teachers, 12% or so to building-level leadership, and about 5% to the central office. NCLB is also bogus and at last 65 billion dollars underfunded if one examines the promises made in 2001 with the funding now sent to the states.
21 July 2008
at 8:05 a.m.

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panhandle2 (Anonymous) says…

NCLB makes the assumption that all third graders and all eighth graders are developmentally at the same place at the same time. It makes no allowance for the little guy who may have learned to talk a bit later. I do not find it strange that this came from the Bush administration. NCLB is set up to make teachers “fail”. No wonder that they are bailing on the profession. With a baccalaureate degree and a teaching certificate, $30,000 is an insult. I'd quit too.
21 July 2008
at 8:42 a.m.

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fu7il3 (Anonymous) says…

What percentage of a school is staff and what percentage is building and central office people though?I think what deskboy is saying is that administrators are paid a lot more than the people actually doing the work.
21 July 2008
at 9:19 a.m.

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penguin (Anonymous) says…

a quick look through the jobs posted on www.kansasteachingjobs.com can illustrate some of this faculty/admin divide.The average starting teaching salary is around $30,000. However, the starting salaries for admins can be more than double that number. Again, they require different certifications and at least an master's, but does this justify a huge pay discrepancy?Oh the Missouri law that has come into effect…the state of Kansas has had this program for a number of years already it is known as Transition to Teaching. The catch is that you have to go to a need area in specific districts. However, KU has never really promoted the program outside of math and science. So in actuality the UKanTeach program is really just a different name for something that has existed in some capacity for a while.This shortage could change some of these pay issues…possibly. The other change could be the perks that are mentioned in this article. I have even heard of some districts in SW KS offering free housing to those willing to teach at their school. However, the lack of perks is not driving teachers out of teaching. One great benefit that could keep some of them in is the elimination of the Kansas Performance Assessment or KPA. Starting this year, new teachers no longer complete the KPA, but will be in a district-designed mentoring program. The KPA was an undue burden on first and second year teachers that I am guessing drove a few of them out of the classroom. I say look at these numbers in a few years and see if teacher retention goes up.
21 July 2008
at 9:36 a.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

The average administrator makes just over $80,000/yr. pretty much every principal and head shed edu-crat makes over $100,000. The superintendant of shawnee mission district makes more than the govenor of either KS or MO. They are public servants, and their salary information is also open to the public, you can request to have access to it if you want. If the district refuses, threaten to sue em. Olathe Daily News used to publish the admin. salaries for the Olathe district. I doubt LJW has to spine to do the same.

21 July 2008
at 9:52 a.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

headline is *terrible* and fails to communicate the content of story. ***the little guy who may have learned to talk a bit later. I do not find it strange that this came from the Bush administration. NCLB is set up to make teachers–put away your hate-bush rant. you conveniently forgot Ted Kennedy in the process of getting nclb started!
21 July 2008
at 10:16 a.m.

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tvc (Anonymous) says…

Agree with gnome on the headline.
21 July 2008
at 10:24 a.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

“I still have the quixotic feeling that I make a difference,” he said. “Most teachers who stay with teaching have the feeling they're contributing something to society outside of receiving a paycheck.”The questionable notion that one “makes a difference” is of little comfort when you can't provide for your family, or you never get to see your kids because you're working a second job till late evening all year round to make ends meet. The republican solution is to let the free market sort this business out: if a person can make more in another profession, then they should be free to persue that option. Someone else will always fill that teaching position.
21 July 2008
at 10:55 a.m.

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dandelion (Anonymous) says…

I can answer the question why more young people don't go into education. The media likes to show how schools are failing. They show clips of classrooms out of control and kids not doing what the teachers tell them. Movies show teachers as the bad guys or uncool nimrods, and kids disrespect them. Although in my reality that didn't happen at school, after watching stuff like this, I didn't want to be a teacher. A college buddy of mine says few schools are like that, and that he loves teaching, except for the pressure he gets to teach to the tests that are required by NCLB. He claims we're are producing a crop of good test takers, but they won't be able to think for themselves. Hmmm, this would be good for politicians, wouldn't it? And who created this program? Right, politicians.
21 July 2008
at 11:03 a.m.

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Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…

Olathe Daily News used to publish the admin. salaries for the Olathe district. I doubt LJW has to spine to do the same.====A law required this for a couple of years, then it sunsetted. The LJW can publish the salaries of any or all public figures any time they wish; all they have to do is ask and the schools, county, police, etc. will give them the numbers.
21 July 2008
at 11:19 a.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

“They show clips of classrooms out of control and kids not doing what the teachers tell them. Movies show teachers as the bad guys or uncool nimrods, and kids disrespect them”Oh please! Kids just need to look at how their friends and classmates treat their teachers and know it's a profession they should avoid. Not trying to stick up for a sensationalist media, but it's societies fault more than the media. Kids and parents run the schools, teachers have to do what they require. Administrators simply capitulate to parents complaints if the parents push hard enough. That's a fact of teaching in todays world….in this country at least.
21 July 2008
at 11:48 a.m.

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jayhawkzrule (Anonymous) says…

My wife would love to be a math / science teacher in Lawrence or the surrounding area. She is highly qualified: a degree in Mechanical Engineering and only one class shy of being a math major. Further, she has been a practicing engineering for over 10 years. Why isn't she teaching? Because she would have to go back to college full-time for nearly 2+ years to get her teaching certificate. This is the main reason why many qualified math/science professionals don't go into teaching.If they could find a way to shorten the time it takes for a licensed professional to get their teaching certificate, I bet you'd take a huge chunk out of the teacher shortage - especially in the math and sciences area.
21 July 2008
at 12:19 p.m.

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kmat (Anonymous) says…

I got my degree from KU, did some time in the Lawrence district and quickly realized that teaching jobs suck! To get my degree, I had to be in a five year program (one major, two minors) and spent more time and money on school than my friends that got other degrees. And only to realize that I couldn't make enough money to pay the bills. Until they realize that teachers must be paid and treated better, there will be a shortage. I don't necessarily like what I do for a living (boring), but I can easily make almost double what I made as a teacher. I don't have to grade papers at night or plan for the next days lessons.It scares me when they talk about giving anyone a teaching cert that has or is getting a bachelor's degree. I know many don't believe it, but you really need a lot of child psych classes and need to understand how children learn and how their brains work (believe it or not, they aren't just little adults). Not every person will be a good teacher, even if they are very intelligent in their given trade (math, engineering, etc…)And if i wanted to go back to teaching (now 12 years removed), I would need to go back and complete my masters. So, two years of master's level tuition to make no more than $30K. What a joke. Out of everyone I went to school with that became a teacher, only a few are still teaching. When you take the low pay and top it off with ungrateful kids and parents (so many parents don't spend the time with their kids that they need and kids are out of control), it's amazing that anyone continues to teach. So sad, because so many of us really wanted to work with kids and make a difference.

21 July 2008
at 12:25 p.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

“So sad, because so many of us really wanted to work with kids and make a difference.”That's the best quote to sum up what all of us who quit teaching feel. The system, parents, and administrators only want you to make a difference if you can do it under their whack rules and restrictions. Heck, I bet Jesus Christ himself wouldn't be able to hit all their “target criteria” and make a difference.
21 July 2008
at 12:35 p.m.

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penguin (Anonymous) says…

Well the five years is also because KU is the only school in the Regents system with that length of program. Heck when I looked at getting a teaching degree after completing a B.A. at KU, I was informed that it would be an additional 5 years. I also had a friend that took 7 years to finish the program because of when he was admitted. I was told by the School of Ed at KU that you essentially need to know right from the beginning of your time at KU that you plan on seeking an education degree…well with the exception of Math and Science majors. So you essentially have to get kids between high school and the first semester of their college years to commit to education…a pretty difficult task. However, not all schools act in this manner.
21 July 2008
at 12:53 p.m.

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cato_the_elder (Anonymous) says…

1. Yes, NCLB and KPA should both be scrapped. Let the teachers teach!2. We have an enormous wealth of talent among younger retirees who would make outstanding teachers. For example, a few years after the fall of Soviet communism in the late-1980's, we were blessed with an abundance of excellent teachers who had taught within the military and found themselves out of work. Many of them wanted to enter public school teaching but could not because of absurd requirements dealing with learning “teaching methods” and other similar useless exercises, in order to obtain “certification.” I would submit that after a reasonably streamlined vetting process in Lawrence we could find at least 100 very qualified younger retirees who would be excellent teachers, especially at the junior high and high school levels. Those in charge of the current system, however, are not about to let that happen. Perhaps if the perceived shortage really gets serious enough the public will insist on changing the system, which should also include abolishing or at least vigorously overhauling schools of education as we know them.
21 July 2008
at 1:31 p.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

There need to be fair market forces applied to school districts to get the best workers and product (educated students). For instance, if my employer fails to provide a quality work environment and compensation, I can look for another job (on my own time) without quitting my current job. Not so for teachers: you must first terminate your contract with your current employer, become unemployed, and then hope you can find a better teaching job. I can market my superior techinical skills, education, and experience for better pay and benefits. Teachers cannot: everyone at a certain level of experience gets paid the same. You do a great job, you do a horrible job: you get paid the same.I hate to admit it, but there's a vaguely communistic system of “everyone is equal” at work in the education profession which, like all communistic systems yields the most consistantly mediocre results that malaise can buy.Keep the tax based financing. Cut administration and boards. Make districts work within a FIXED budget. Get the free market involved.
21 July 2008
at 2:11 p.m.

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cato_the_elder (Anonymous) says…

Salad, if you live in Lawrence you should run for the school board.
21 July 2008
at 2:44 p.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

cato_the_elder (Anonymous) says: “Salad, if you live in Lawrence you should run for the school board.”With the amount of stuff screwed up in education, anyone who wanted to make a change would have to run for king.
21 July 2008
at 2:56 p.m.

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marcdeveraux (Anonymous) says…

Why would any teacher want to live in Kansas? Uptight, bible thumpers run the state. Voters think that evolution is a fairy tale.Do they not read the good book? Talk about tall tales.How many overweight kansans think that gluttony is a sin? Apparently not many.The only teachers that will teach(willingly) in your state will want to include creationism. Its just does not pass the test folks.What a bunch of hicks,Go ahead and vote republican. Just do not complain when your kids wind up working for peanuts their whole life.
21 July 2008
at 3:27 p.m.

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deskboy04 (Anonymous) says…

The person ordering the chicken nuggets and little smokies at the central office probably earns more than twice as much as your kid's teacher.

21 July 2008
at 3:28 p.m.

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stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says…

what a bunch of whining from greedy people who couldn't cut it as teachers…
21 July 2008
at 3:35 p.m.

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stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says…

evolution isn't meant to explain the “origin of life”…and maybe Christian beliefs should be unbelievable to children…
21 July 2008
at 4:07 p.m.

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gccs14r (Anonymous) says…

We don't pay teachers enough, but we also don't require teachers to have a Master's in their subject matter. We should require a teacher to have a degree in education, a Master's in his subject field, and start him at $60k. The money we don't spend on educators (educators, not administrators) is money we'll eventually have to spend on jailers.
21 July 2008
at 4:20 p.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says: “what a bunch of whining from greedy people who couldn't cut it as teachers:”What a perfect opportunity for you to jump right in there and plug the gap, stuckinthemiddle! I volenteer you to teach Algebra II to HS kids who struggle with a multitude of problems; academic and otherwise. The children NEED you!
22 July 2008
at 4:27 p.m.

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Kasha (Anonymous) says…

I am SO sick of hearing that public school teachers are underpaid. Mark Vierthaler says in his 7-21-08 article that “$29,202 is a huge deterrent when the average salary for a chemical engineer in Kansas is about $80,000.”How dare teachers presume they have anywhere near the training and expertise of a chemical engineer? How dare teachers continue to think they should be paid for a questionable eight months of 'teaching' with an expert who earns a twelve-month salary. Absolutely ludicrous.Whine, whine whine. Kids are being shortchanged by so-called Educators who are turned out by inept Schools of Education nationwide. K.U. is no exception. If I had children in school I'd be screaming about their lack of education. Even school teachers and members of the School Board are quoted using incorrect English. Makes me sick!Lawrence teachers have whined their way into two pay raises this year. Two too many! Maybe teachers should only get merit raises, although I'm sure I don't know who is qualified to make THAT judgment.
22 July 2008
at 9:49 p.m.

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gccs14r (Anonymous) says…

An educator is more valuable than a chemical engineer, because without educators, there are no engineers. As for the “eight months” comment (as if August to May is only 8 months), Kasha is apparently unaware that educators have continuing education requirements and they also have to prep for the next year. It's not as if they have summers off, they just have a couple of months of no teaching. In the case of university professors, that's when they do their research. If you want qualified teachers, you're going to have to pay up. Requiring classroom teachers to have a Master's in their subject field would help improve the quality of education, but be prepared to add about $40k a year to each one's salary. The expense would pay dividends in about 30 years, after all the better-educated kids finish with grad school and get settled into the workforce. As for who is qualified to assess teacher performance, it sure isn't the ordinary citizen on the street. Some of them think homework is an abomination.
22 July 2008
at 10:21 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

“Missouri lawmakers passed a bill this spring that would allow anyone with a bachelor's degree to enter a program where they could receive a teaching license, providing they pass a test within a year showing they have an expert's grasp on the subject.”I think I'll move to Missouri and teach.
22 July 2008
at 10:27 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

For those who cry tears for the teachers who have to obtain continuing education credits in their paid time off, there are some of us who also have onerous continuing education requirements who do not have the luxury of a couple of months off to accomplish it. We are business owners or sales people on commission, and we get hit, big time, for any time we take off for continuing education. Steven Covey tells us it is worth it, tells us not to begrudge the loss in productivity, he calls it “sharpening the saw.” Maybe teachers should adopt that point of view.