Differential pay doesn't sit well with teachers / LJWorld.com

Archive for Monday, June 2, 2008

June 2, 2008

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The Lawrence school board has floated a proposal to raise the pay for some new teachers, but the teachers' association has met it with trepidation.

The proposal is geared toward those who teach subjects like special education, science and math - areas where it is hard to recruit teachers.

"One of the big things missing is the ability to reward exemplary teachers with additional pay as well as the ability to offer higher salaries to those positions we're finding harder and harder to fill," board member Scott Morgan said.

The proposal would allow teachers in hard-to-fill positions to be placed differently on the salary schedule. Teachers are currently paid according to a negotiated schedule based on years of experience in the district and their level of education beyond a bachelor's degree.

But Lawrence Education Association leaders have expressed no interest in talking about the differential pay proposal. They say the problem is that teacher salaries are too low in general.

"Targeting these hard-to-fill positions is a Band-Aid approach to an endemic problem that needs to be addressed," said LEA President Adela Solis, who teaches English as a second language at Cordley School.

Still, school board negotiators are trying to find a way to talk more about the issue with teachers. Last week, they asked to create a subcommittee to study the issue, but LEA negotiators said they weren't interested.

Robert Harrington, a Kansas University education professor, said school districts should focus on retaining teachers. States have an adequate supply of people certified to teach, but districts fail to keep them in the profession, he said.

Harrington said starting a differential pay system seems to focus on recruitment more than retention and might be "opening a can of worms," particularly if teachers with less experience are getting paid more than those who have worked for several years.

"There are some morale issues that have to be thought about and addressed," he said.

But the Lawrence district faces a shortage of special education teachers and last year relied on long-term substitutes for a few of those positions. That will be another challenge this coming year, said David Cunningham, the human resources director for certified staff.

Principals are still hiring and making offers for all teaching openings. As of last week, administrators had hired 51 teachers or certified employees but still had 58 openings, Cunningham said. More hires will be made in the coming weeks, he said.

Morgan said Lawrence has not been hit as hard by teacher shortages in certain subjects as other Kansas districts. But with more teachers retiring in coming years, he said, staffing likely will become tougher, especially in math and science.

It's important, he said, for school board members and administrators to find some way to make differential pay part of the negotiating process with teachers.

"I know that it has to be mutual or it's going to be sunk before it ever leaves the dock," Morgan said.

Discussion

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2 June 2008
at 7:28 a.m.

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volunteer (Anonymous) says…

I agree that teachers in subjects of no shortage would have a fit if shortage-area instructors got paid more out in the open. That is why many districts have quietly been handling this Administratively. Just like they give, say, the counselor a contract with 190 days instead of 180, they give teachers in those shortage subjects a contract with ten extra days added, then just wink if the math/science/special ed teacher doesn't actually show up for these extra days. No need to create a brouhaha over a matter than can be handled administratively.
2 June 2008
at 7:46 a.m.

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packs_of_wild_dogzz (Anonymous) says…

So Hawk, what's with you wanting people laid off all the time? What do you do for a living?
2 June 2008
at 8:26 a.m.

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deskboy04 (Anonymous) says…

I'll bet that they'd have a lot of applicants for the food service administrative position if it opened up. Of course, they pay that person $90,000.
2 June 2008
at 8:44 a.m.

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cg22165 (Anonymous) says…

Supply and demand, let the market decide. Private industry makes no bones about paying more for the kinds of people who are harder to find; why should the public sector be different?
2 June 2008
at 9:15 a.m.

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fu7il3 (Anonymous) says…

Laying off people when you don't have people to replace them. Sort of a stupid idea. But of course, it's only the kids' educations at stake.
2 June 2008
at 10:34 a.m.

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aeroscout17 (Anonymous) says…

hawk,I did jump off the horse and happy I did. I now make almost twice what I would have been making, get to travel and have a lot less stress than when I was teaching. There is already a shortage of math and science teachers. What if they all get out of education like I did? Who is going to fill those teaching positions? A sub with little or no math/science and possibly not even a college education? Is that what you want for the future leaders of our country?
2 June 2008
at 10:35 a.m.

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JOEHAWK (Anonymous) says…

I work with schools nationwide. Lawrence has some of the best. Many school districts pay their math and science teachers more. It is a fact that we need more emphasis on science and math. However I don't like that our teachers have no merit system. They however should have bonuses based on student performance. The whole purpose is to teach kids, how do we measure that learning is occuring? How do we reward a teacher who is doing a good job? A good job year after year? Just because a teacher gets another degree, doesn't mean they are good teachers. I don't even have a degree and am one of the top people in my field. I am a fan of education, whatever the form, however I value performance more. If a teacher continuously turns out kids with low test scores, there is a problem somewhere. It could be the kids, the environement, etc. But I would look at the teacher first.

2 June 2008
at 10:37 a.m.

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jrlii (Anonymous) says…

The most critical factor in teacher retention has nothing to do with money: Do the administrators support their teachers? When principals and other administrators side with children (or parents) making questionable assertions against their teachers, it is much harder to retain teachers than if they provide appropriate support.In the past, teachers received automatic and sometimes unwarranted support on the part of administration, but today, all too often, administrators proceed as inquisitors, assuming all allegations are veracible and make the life of teachers unreasonably difficult.
2 June 2008
at 10:45 a.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

This is a good idea. Why would anyone talented in science and math go into teaching, when you get paid the same as everyone else, no matter what you do. You triple major in Chemistry, Physics, and Math, graduate magna cum laude, volenteer to teach 7 preps of highschool classes and guess what, you get paid the same as the party-girl who stumbled her way to a “C” average while majoring in elementary ed. Oh yeah, the way the system is now, you do a great job or you do a crappy job: you get paid the same. As long as you show up on time and don't kill a kid, it's lifetime employment no strings attached.
2 June 2008
at 11:24 a.m.

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debengstrom (Deb Engstrom) says…

Let's not even consider basing teacher pay on test scores. Some of the very best teachers work with students with all sorts of challenges who don't score well on any standardized assessments. So if we base teacher pay on student classroom performance, we'll be accused of inflating grades so we can get more pay. Why not just pay teachers the professional salary that they deserve and since they are professionals, trust that they are doing their jobs? There are ways to handle teachers who aren't doing their jobs without keeping the salaries of a whole profession far too low.
2 June 2008
at 11:26 a.m.

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Victoria (Anonymous) says…

As a person in education for over 25 years, I say get rid of the tenure protection THEN pay on merit and hire people for more money in needed areas. Performance would improve overall for everyone if teachers were not protected by tenure and could be held more accountable individually for student achievement. The high achieving teachers will continue to be high achieving and be rewarded for it. Those who don't perform can be weeded out or start performing to retain their jobs.
2 June 2008
at 11:46 a.m.

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JOEHAWK (Anonymous) says…

Debengstrom,What planet do you live on? Trust? professionals? There is very little honor in the workforce anymore. Maybe half the teachers would hold themselves accountable. You have to be able to access performance. Testing may not be the entire formula, but there has to be a way to see if a teacher is helping kids or just punching the clock.
2 June 2008
at 11:57 a.m.

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hilary (Anonymous) says…

Trust,I don't think most teachers get out of the profession because of the low pay. Most people go into teaching because they really love it, but there are unforseen obstables that put a dirty taste in their mouths. Most teachers that have left that I know cite the insane time commitment, lack of administrative support and parent support, and stress level. I think the teachers who really love their job, and do it well do not leave because of the low pay; we all knew about that going into it. It's the insane pressure and realization of “Hey, I could get another job, and come home at 5, and leave it all at work.” It's much harder to do that as a teacher, unless you've done it for a long time, and really mastered it.
2 June 2008
at 12:21 p.m.

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debengstrom (Deb Engstrom) says…

What planet do you live on? Trust? professionals?Most people trust their doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc. Somehow teachers have never gotten to that level, even though they are given an awesome responsibility.
2 June 2008
at 12:33 p.m.

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cato_the_elder (Anonymous) says…

Joehawk, the poster identified as “debengstrom” is one of the finest teachers in our school district. She works with disabled kids in situations where test scores, if any, are often secondary to what she so artfully does. The problem with merit pay is that many people advocate it, but no one has yet come up with a system that will work. On the other hand, it is in fact difficult to dismiss teachers who are by reputation ineffective - most everyone knows who they are, but as is typical with governmental employees it's very difficult to come up with an objective way of measuring lack of success. For example, if a high school student has five effective teachers and one ineffective teacher in each semester of his or her senior year and thereafter is graduated, who will ever know whether either of the ineffective teachers was specifically responsible for anything negative that can thereafter be measured? If it could be measured, who is advocating paying what it would cost to do it? Can't it be said that experiencing an ineffective teacher is a life lesson that will almost certainly be repeated thereafter? Who hasn't had such a teacher at least one time at the college level? It's a difficult problem that is much more profound in the inner cities and in states that have stronger teachers' unions than we do, and as a result many parents in Lawrence tend simply to look the other way and work hard, together with their kids' teachers, to assist in educating their children as much as they can on their own - being thankful that any perceived problems that we may have here with ineffective teachers are miniscule compared with what's happening elsewhere.

2 June 2008
at 12:47 p.m.

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packs_of_wild_dogzz (Anonymous) says…

I know of a teacher in the Lawrence school district who is a psychopath and has no business dealing with anyone, let alone children.
2 June 2008
at 1:08 p.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

Victoria and Bowhunter are correct. Additionally, Debengstrom is also correct in that you can't let the test scores determine merrit pay. There are plenty of little Bastages that will bomb a test just to burn a teacher that they have some imagined grievance against. How do you determine excellence in teacher job performance? Heck if I know…that's the money question. It would certainly help to get administrators off their seats and into some classrooms to do some required observing several times a year.
2 June 2008
at 1:22 p.m.

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deskboy04 (Anonymous) says…

merit pay…dumb idea. just pay the teachers as much as you pay your administrators
2 June 2008
at 4:09 p.m.

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cg22165 (Anonymous) says…

hawkperchedatriverfront , Have you ever worked for the government? Have you even looked at comparative scales between public and private sectors? I don't think you have. I used to work in the public sector, but I took the same job for twice the pay at a corporation. It's like that everywhere I've seen. Determining who merits more pay is a thorny issue, but it is everywhere. At least, it is above the job level where you can measure widgets per day. Differential pay is not a problem as far as I can see; maybe it's just the case that the way this proposal would implement it is.Regarding the 'morale' issue of having a new hire earn more than an experienced teacher. Where I work, this is solved by what we call leveling adjustments. Basically, there are companies that survey professions across geographies and my company looks at those statistics and if you are a good worker, but are getting paid less than the industry average for what you do and where you are, you get a good raise. 'Course, the opposite is true, if they figure they could replace you for equal or less, you don't get much, if anything.Does the government do this? I doubt it.
2 June 2008
at 7:25 p.m.

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Multidisciplinary (Anonymous) says…

How funny, I never read Deb's poster name well enough to identify her. Yes, Deb has an overly full work load, many of which can't pass any tests. Thanks for your good work Deb.
2 June 2008
at 8:08 p.m.

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cowboy (Anonymous) says…

The district can't hold on to Sped teachers because the paperwork and workloads are completely overwhelming. In one elementary there is a new one each year , highly touted , and burned out by the end of the first year. Wait till the elementary parents hear about the reassignment of manpower to the middle schools who arent hitting test targets and now the elementary Sped kids won't have the 1-1 para help they are entitled to , School Board , Get your head out your rears and listen to your teachers !
2 June 2008
at 8:20 p.m.

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Multidisciplinary (Anonymous) says…

Paperwork. I remember the first year that we had a meeting, and we “didn't” have to backdate it because they were late getting it done. It had been years!
2 June 2008
at 8:51 p.m.

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volunteer (Anonymous) says…

Unions of all sorts tend to favor seniority-based pay rather than merit-based. I don't blame the union for dismissing the idea of a merit pay component to the salary schedule. The Administration still can give hard-to-find teachers an extra ten days on their contract. That gives $2500-3000 into the pockets of those instructors without getting folks all shook up.Neighboring small-town districts have been doing that on the down low for decades. That is how they attract and keep science, math, and special ed teachers.

3 June 2008
at 8:09 a.m.

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bd (Anonymous) says…

I know if my performance slacked my boss would be on my ass and if I did not perform I would be out the door!Teachers are underpaid , but so are a lot of people!They sometime act like they want to keep our kids education hostege unless they get the best facilities and pay!I guess if I had that kind of power I would do that too!
3 June 2008
at 8:17 a.m.

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beawolf (Anonymous) says…

Unions and professionals do not mix. The union concept was born because of abuse to low skilled, high volume workers. These industries included: textiles, mining, automotive and other manufacturing type jobs; Long hours, repetitive work, low pay and terrible working conditions. In a professional environment you need to be paid according to your education, skills, demands of the profession and body of work, not on how many years you have been employed.