Four-year degree elusive for many / LJWorld.com

Archive for Sunday, September 23, 2007

College students cite obstacles in finishing on traditional schedule

September 23, 2007

Enrollment in colleges and universities is up nationwide, but federal data shows that as many as 40 percent of college students will not have finished a degree in six years.

Only a handful of those who have not completed a degree will still be trying. The rest will have either given up or moved to another school.

On Thursday, Kansas University announced its fall enrollment. And while the number is down again, it is still more than 1,000 above what it was a decade ago.

Still, if current trends hold up, 40 percent of students new to KU this year will have left the university by 2013 without a degree.

Jamie Kahn, a senior from Overland Park, has started her fifth year and plans to graduate this year. But she's convinced it's difficult to graduate in four years.

"The curriculum is very rigorous, and advising isn't the best," Kahn said. "The university isn't always supportive."

A nontraditional student, Kahn has had to juggle her children with working and classes. She said even something as simple as child care support could have helped her graduate more quickly. Other factors students cite when asked why they can't graduate on time includes getting in to the classes they need, enjoying the social aspects of college too much and switching majors.

For some students, it won't take long to determine they're in trouble - 20 percent of this year's freshman class likely will leave KU by the end of this year.

"I don't know of any business in the world that would be satisfied with a 20 percent failure rate," KU Provost Richard Lariviere said.

After the 2005-2006 school year, the most recent for which data was available, 82.3 percent of the incoming freshmen continued on to year two. For those who were freshmen in 1999, the most recent year that six-year data was available, 59.2 percent of students had completed an undergraduate degree by 2005, with 3.6 percent still enrolled.

Some will leave only to return at some point later, like Sherri Williamson.

"This is something I started a while ago," she explained. "I decided that I needed to come back and get it done."

Williamson is pursuing degrees in painting and creative writing.

But the numbers still trouble KU administrators. They say graduating in four years is in the best interest of successfully graduating students, and it's also helpful for the university.

"Once we have this pipeline of students bent on success coming through, we want to them get out of here and succeed," Lariviere said. "Staying for a fifth or sixth year costs $18,000 (in tuition and living) plus a $30,000 salary. You're never going to get that income back."

Hemenway, at this year's faculty and staff convocation, said increasing the number of students who graduate in four years will increase the overall number of students who graduate.

"Our 'graduate in four' message is penetrating," he said, "but we still have too many capable students who fail to graduate."

That's part of the university's justification for its recently initiated four-year guaranteed tuition plan. Under the four-year tuition plan, student pay a set rate over four years. Once that four years has passed, students pay a variable tuition rate that is set every year. Typically, it will be higher.

Administrators hope that by changing the way tuition is charged, students will focus on graduating in four years - or at the very least getting out as soon as they practically can.

Discussion

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23 September 2007
at 8:14 a.m.

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purplesage (Anonymous) says…

That drop out, or non-completion rate, mirrors that of many public high schools. Only about 80 to 85 percent of freshmen finish at many schools.
23 September 2007
at 8:43 a.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

Hey, I am “special,” and I have every intention of extending my adolescence to twice- or thrice-thirty. (Can I get a latte with that pita?)
23 September 2007
at 9 a.m.

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nobody1793 (Anonymous) says…

Some people don't belong at a University. Some people were forced to go to school by thier parents. Some people find out they don't like it. Some people have to take the same remedial math class three times because they didn't learn it properly in high school. Some people like to take extra classes simply because they are interested in them. There are lots of reasons people don't finish in 4 years. It's easy to simply blame all these things on KU, when it really just comes down to the individual. Two kids, a job and full time school?! It doesn't take a PhD to figure out that it will take you longer than 4 years!
23 September 2007
at 9:13 a.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

nobody1793 says: “It doesn't take a PhD to figure out that it will take you longer than 4 years!”

(In fact, a PhD is likely to take twice- or thrice-four…. Can I get a letter with that 'ploma?)
23 September 2007
at 9:55 a.m.

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gccs14r (Anonymous) says…

Some folks run out of money. Others find that when they change majors, almost none of their gen-ed coursework counts in the new major, so they've effectively started over from scratch. Advising is often handled by overworked personnel who have no idea who you are or what you need. The last bit is that now, students must pay by the hour for all hours taken, instead of being able to pay for 12 and taking as many additional hours as they're capable of absorbing. It doesn't help that the campus activity fee is a flat rate, making a 3-hour class *very* expensive if taken by itself.
23 September 2007
at 9:58 a.m.

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cait48 (Anonymous) says…

It doesn't help that KU is decidedly unfriendly toward “nontraditional” students.
23 September 2007
at 10:48 a.m.

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davidnta (Anonymous) says…

KU has been friendly towards nontraditional students. It's just those students don't know how to use KU resources and are too stubborn to ask.

23 September 2007
at 11:36 a.m.

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devilsrighthandman (Anonymous) says…

I have recently found friends and former students are having a nightmare of a problem with advisors. They are either ambivilant to a students needs, treating them as if they are a nuisance, or incorrectly advising them. I would love to hear from anyone else who had to take antother class because their “advisor” didn't do thier job. I'm not saying this is the reason for students not finishing in 4 years, but a MAJOR concern for the University to tackle.
23 September 2007
at 11:37 a.m.

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Hong_Kong_Phooey (Anonymous) says…

KU is typical of a big, research University. They care about the undergraduates but only to a degree. The real bread and butter comes from the grants that faculty and graduate students secure through their research. As a result, most freshman are like a ship drifting at sea. Some are lucky and find a port. Others drift about aimlessly until they get a hole in their hull and sink. For example, when I was a freshman I went to all of the events that were supposed to acclimate you to the University and its climate. Never once was I told about an adviser. I didn't know the procedures that were to be followed when adding/dropping classes, and I didn't know about many of the resources that were available to me. I managed to muddle my way through for the first two years but that was not accomplished mistake-free. It's idiotic, I know, but I believed that if I just stopped going to a class that they would deduce that I had dropped the class. As I came to find out, that is not the case. Can anyone say “F”? When I was a junior and trying to declare a major the CLAS asked who my adviser was. I looked at them dumbfounded and said, “I have an adviser?” No one had ever been assigned to me. Apparently, I was supposed to find one myself. It's these little things that the University doesn't do for it's undergrads that can make the difference between a successful student and a so-so student.

Incidentally, I did graduate.
23 September 2007
at 11:51 a.m.

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livingstone (Anonymous) says…

Sad to say that most Phds take shorter time to complete nowadays than a Bachelor degree while Masters Degree takes even shorter time for most. Why? Simple, those who take those degrees are more matured and know what they want in life (even if those careers are not what they really enjoy). People who work for a masters are those who already have a career or know what they want for their career and had been in the real world before. In the real world, you don't have much of a choice. You work for compensation, and you follow a set of rules.

For those who are working for a Bachelor, especially those kids, they don't realize the reality in the outside world. They don't know that they're not as special as they were thought to be. They don't know that the real world out there need people who have that math and writing skills at the same time. They don't know that nice and easy to study subjects are not what employers need. The high schools are not teaching them these reality, while colleges have a hard time trying to teach them the real world when they are immersed in these non-reality all their lives. I have hard time trying to tell my kids that even if they worked hard, if the answers are wrong, they don't get an A! In their mind, they still think “If I worked hard, I should get an A”. It's hardwork plus right work.

All college professors have to put up with such mentality. I never try to give up, but many of my colleagues gave up and simply sit back and don't care.
23 September 2007
at 1:24 p.m.

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Confrontation (Anonymous) says…

“A nontraditional student, Kahn has had to juggle her children with working and classes. She said even something as simple as child care support could have helped her graduate more quickly.”

Who is at fault for this? Did we make you have children before you received an education? Those were your choices.
23 September 2007
at 1:36 p.m.

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lovenhaight (Anonymous) says…

If you think there are no non-traditional resources on campus, try contacting the Non-Traditional Student Foundation or one of the non-traditional student senators, or apply for non-traditional student scholarships. All non-trads get an email newsletter sent to them every month unless they ask to be removed from the listserv, so there isn't much of a reason for anyone to say there isn't an effort made to involve non-traditional students.

For those complaining about not being walked through their undergraduate work on a leash:

Did you ever bother to open your Undergraduate Catalog and actually read the guidelines, or check the Registrar's website for add/drop dates and policies (its in big red letters on the left side of the screen), or even stop by any of the advising offices and ask who your advisor is? The resources are all there for you, but you can't honestly expect to be spoonfed every single thing you should know. At some point, students have to take responsibility for their own academic career. If all of the information was kept in some hidden recess of Strong Hall that is kept under lock and key, not knowing might be excusable, but everything is there and readily available for anyone who wants to know. All a student has to do is ASK.
23 September 2007
at 2:22 p.m.

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gccs14r (Anonymous) says…

That sounds like an improvement. There was no WWW to speak of when I was an undergrad (even e-mail was something of a novelty outside of techie circles), so getting any administrative work done required a business-hours-only office visit.
23 September 2007
at 7:19 p.m.

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mom_of_three (Anonymous) says…

so should non-traditional students not attend school or not ask for help?
23 September 2007
at 10:34 p.m.

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bjayhawk (Anonymous) says…

They didn't assign you an adviser? Part of going to college is learning to be independent and yes, you make mistakes, but don't you realize that eventually, you have to ask for help? They don't assign you an adviser like an 8th grader, but you know advisers are there if you can't figure it out yourself. Being successful in getting an undergrad degree is about growing up and taking initiative. And some common sense, obviously.

I understand that taking more than 4 years is a strain on resources for the University and the state, but with tuition increasing at this high rate, you have to expect more and more students to have to have at least part-time jobs just to pay rent or even a small part of tuition. This leaves less time for more classes during a semester and more than 4 years to complete all 124 credits.
Also, many grad schools and employers look more favorably towards involvement and leadership roles as an undergrad, sucking up more time from those four years.

I'd be interested in knowing what the drop out rates or completion rates are after KU increases admission standards…

24 September 2007
at 12:13 a.m.

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tabitha013 (Anonymous) says…

The problem is not that it takes longer than 4 yrs to complete the classwork. The problem is that students don't pay attention to what they need to do (course requirements are written out) and a lot of the students party too much. I managed to graduate in 4 years with 2 majors and a minor, along with working 30+hrs a week to pay for it and most of my friends did the same thing. The students that I knew that were taking longer were only there cause of drinking.
24 September 2007
at 9:56 a.m.

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lovenhaight (Anonymous) says…

Mom_of_three:

If your comment was directed at my post, you missed the point. The point is that there are resources for non-trads, and to say that there are not means that someone is actively trying not to find them.