Nancy Davis thought the Big One had finally hit Kansas.
One minute, the 75-year-old Lawrence resident was sitting on her deck in the northwest part of the city with three of her children. The next minute her deck had collapsed, throwing her and her surgically repaired hip off her chair and into the side of her home.
"I thought it was an earthquake," Davis said.
No, nothing that complex. Turns out it was just a poorly built deck, probably like hundreds of others in the city that were built before 2000.
Davis' 12-year-old deck - attached to the back of her home at 3918 Tumbleweed Court - was inadequately secured to her home with simple nails. Today, city building inspectors require that decks be bolted to the side of a home.
The builder of the Davis home, including the deck, was Tim Stultz, of Highland Construction. He said using nails to secure decks was common in Lawrence up until about 2000 when the city started doing more builder education about the need to use stronger lag bolts.
"Unfortunately, there are probably a lot of other decks like that one," Stultz said.
Nancy Davis, Lawrence, on Wednesday looks over the remains of her deck, which collapsed June 15 as she and family were sitting on it. No one was injured in the collapse. So far, her insurance has not agreed to pay for the accident because of how the deck was built. Davis is urging residents to check their decks and insurance policies.
Neither Davis nor any of her three grown children were hurt when the deck collapsed June 15. The deck had only about four feet to fall before it hit the ground. Stultz has offered to rebuild the deck for Davis for free, but she hasn't yet taken him up on the offer. She's peeved that the deck wasn't built better than it was and now is leaning toward having another deck builder replace the structure at a cost of about $7,500.
But she said she wants to do what she can to make sure a similar accident doesn't happen to others.
"The moral of the story is in order to be safe and keep your family out of harm's way, you need to check your deck," Davis said.
Davis also is urging people to read their homeowner's policy closely. Thus far, her insurance company has not agreed to pay for the accident because of how the deck was built.
"You need to read the fine print on your insurance policy," Davis said.
Eric Schmidt, with Lawrence-based Deck Doctors, estimated that 25 percent to 30 percent of the decks he's replaced in the city have lacked the adequate number of lag bolts or haven't had any at all.
City building inspectors don't dispute there are probably a number of decks in the city that could benefit from reinforcing. Tim Pinnick, senior plans examiner for the city's Neighborhood Resources Department, said nailing was a much more accepted practice before 2000. Since then, though, the department has seen enough evidence from failed decks across the country to make the use of lag bolts a priority.
"Building practices are an evolution that is based on what we see from practical use," Pinnick said. "We feel like we have some tried and true methods now."
The builder who constructed Nancy Davis' deck nailed the back of the deck to the siding of the house. The nails pulled out, causing Davis' deck to collapse earlier this month.
Davis' home, like all other new homes in the city, was inspected by city building inspectors before it was put on the market.
Stultz said he's sorry about what Davis has had to go through. The home was only the third one that his company had built after being founded in 1992. He's urging everyone to check their decks, but he doesn't want people to think that builders were just being cheap when they used the nails instead of the bolts.
"It's really just a $10 fix to go buy 10 lag bolts at the hardware store for a dollar apiece," Stultz said. "It's not like it is a big cost-saving cut from a builder standpoint. I think it was just assumed that a 16 penny nail was strong enough."
Barry Walthall, the city's building safety manager, said reports of decks collapsing were rare in Lawrence. He estimated that his office received reports of deck collapses less than once per year on average.
Deck safety
Here are some tips from city building inspectors and Eric Schmidt, of Deck Doctors, on how to determine if your deck may need reinforcing. The city also has a free 25-page pamphlet with details on how to properly build a deck. That can be picked up at the city's Neighborhood Resources Department in the former Riverfront Mall at Sixth and New Hampshire streets.
¢ Crawl under your deck and look for evidence of lag screws where the deck's connected to your house. The screws will look like a regular bolt head. A deck that is 8 to 10 feet wide should have a screw at least every 16 inches. Wider decks should have them closer together.
¢ Check the joists of your deck to ensure they are supported by metal joist hangers. The joists are the boards used to support the floor of your deck. If there's no sign of metal hangers, that likely means the joists are supported by a couple of nails. Joist hangers can be bought and added to the deck at any time.
¢ Check each post supporting the deck to ensure it is not in direct contact with the soil. Posts should be surrounded by concrete, otherwise they are susceptible to rotting.
¢ Check all handrails and guardrails to ensure they are tight and secure.
¢ Keep the deck clean and treated with a weatherproofing agent to slow deck decay.
Comments
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (anonymous) says…
"He said using nails to secure decks was common in Lawrence up until about 2000 when the city started doing more builder education about the need to use stronger lag bolts.
"Unfortunately, there are probably a lot of other decks like that one," Stultz said."
I don't accept this. The use of lag bolts is not "news". I find it hard to believe that this builder or any other builder didn't know that lag bolts were safer than nails. It's about doing the "minimum", then hiding behind loopholes in the code. Even the guys at Home Depot know better.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Crawl under your deck and look for evidence of lag screws where the deck's connected to your house. ...
Have an ambulence and crew standing by in case the deck was secured with nails and flattens you like a pancake.
robdew (anonymous) says…
I just finished rebuilding my 400 sq ft deck, and one of my resources was a book from the library book sale, purchased for $ 0.10 about building decks. It's only about 80 pages.
When talking about fastening the ledger to the wall, there is no mention of nails, only lag screws and bolts. copyright 1976.
L. Donald Meyers' authoritative book on the subject "Designing and Building Decks" also does not mention nails for attaching the ledger to the house. Copyright 1988.
People have known this was the proper way to secure a deck to a house for decades. These are consumer texts! Professional contractors should know better.
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
Use of lag bolts in connecting a deck to the house is very rudimentary. Since that wasn't done, if I were this lady, I'd be wondering what other rudimentary tasks weren't done in the construction of this house.
And given that the new building license requirements were passed at the behest of big builders like Stultz to "improve the quality of construction," you have to wonder how effective that will be.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Yeah, robdew- When I read this I wondered how much research must have been done to conclude that newfangled bolts work better than nails for securing a deck. It's a no brainer. What a lame excuse.
Most "professional contractors" don't seem to have anyone's interests other than their own in mind, it seems. Shouldn't his work have been inspected by a building inspector or some other City entity?
bennric (anonymous) says…
The deck collapse does not surprise me with the inferior quality of construction present in the Lawrence area. I currently am in the market for a home, but believe the quality of construction does not meet my standards. My wife and I attempted to purchase a new construction townhome on the west side from this same builder, but after noticing a major flaw (significant dip and sagging of the roof, along with other minor flaws) we backed out of the deal because the builder would not acknowledge the problem. I believe the builders are doing the absolute minimum construction requirements to produce a sub-par product that Lawrence home buyers choose to or are forced to accept.
FYI the new arsenic free pressure treated lumber used for decks is highly corrosive to metal and stainless steel fasteners (bolts, screws, ect) are highly recommend.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Cheap materials and cheap labor, what do you expect?
monkeyhawk (anonymous) says…
I would think it is standard procedure for the city to inspect most every phase of construction. (Although it took the city 5 years to send me a letter to inspect an installation I had done in the 90's.)
Unfortunately, it makes all Stultz construction suspect. I own one of his properties, but luckily it is a slab with no deck.
simplyamazed (anonymous) says…
Everyone needs to remember that the City did not require construction companies to use bolts. What do you think construction workers were going to do back then? Sure they used the cheapest way, they want to make as much money as they can. Thanks to the City for finally realizing regulations in building code were a necessity but should we really blame the contractors for only doing what was said to be okay by the regulations?
tony88 (anonymous) says…
Yes. We should blame them. They did it.
OldEnuf2BYurDad (anonymous) says…
"The deck collapse does not surprise me with the inferior quality of construction present in the Lawrence area."
This seems to happen in every community when there is rapid growth. So many people are clamoring to buy new homes that there is no need for a builder to win business with superior quality. When there is a normal competetive environment, builders have to present quality to the marketplace in order to stay afloat.
Wait 30 years. There will be entire blocks of homes being torn down long after the builder has retired to his well-built home in the country.
angelsunwall (anonymous) says…
People need to know that the city does inspect every little thing. This deck would not pass inspection today but it did six years ago. The company didn't break any laws and six years ago using nails was a regular practice. Rules and regulations change constantly as time passes and new things discovered. How many years was lead paint used, steel plumbing pipes, mercury thermometers, and etc.. Change is always happening. Most of the time for the better but there are so many things that we all use now that who knows in another 10 years times will change again an there will be something else for people to complain about that people didn't do right.
cutny (anonymous) says…
The building codes in Lawrence have sunken so low, as to be unconscionable. These new houses are shacks and are definitely not built to last. The builders themselves have long since ceased being craftsmen. You'd be better off buying day old fish than you would be buying a new home in Lawrence.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
angelsunwall-"Rules and regulations change constantly as time passes and new things discovered".
"New things discovered???" Like bolts hold weight better than nails?
This must be the most important discovery of the 21st century!
i_have_only_valid_opinions (anonymous) says…
What kind of news writer uses the words "she's peeved" in an actual article?
Wilbur_Nether (anonymous) says…
i_have_only_valid_opinions wondered "What kind of news writer uses the words "she's peeved" in an actual article?"
Personally, I think it's very gracious of the LJW to provide phrases like that to our little forum. Else, what from that story would we ever discuss?
Other than the roundabouts issue, that is.
jafs (anonymous) says…
I am sorry to hear of this woman's troubles. It has seemed to me for a while that new construction is underbuilt and overpriced, and that builders are benefiting far more from the new growth of Lawrence than residents. I also agree that lag bolts are nothing new, and clearly (even to me) a more secure way of attaching decks. Perhaps potential homebuyers need to demand higher quality, lower prices, or both. Unfortunately, most builders will do the minimum necessary to sell houses, and only market forces will change their attitude. Clearly, we cannot rely on the city code to protect us.
Redzilla (anonymous) says…
Funny how professional builders often just seem to be pros at faster, cheaper, shoddier. If I may be so bold as to use "shoddier" without peeving someone.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
Sounds like typical shoddy construction - unfortunately, the homeowner needs to look out for themselves many times. I'm sure, like many elevated decks, they just hung the whole thing on the sill board as well, yuck.
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
Enforcer - the woman is NOT looking at a costly repair if she takes up the guys offer to rebuild it for her. It sounds to me that she will most likely be hiring some sleazoid lawyer to sue for the $7500 needed to replace the deck (plus punative damages, mental stress, pain and suffering, etc. etc.)
angelsunwall (anonymous) says…
I was only trying to say that the construction companies follow the codes. They do what is demanded of them. If they put in a gold toilet, the house will cost more. Houses cost much more now to build then they did two years ago. Prices of lumber and many other materials have sky rocketed. They are doing the best they can. Those of you that think they do shoddy work fine. But they passed inspection. Whose fault is that? We all cut cost in our lives where we can. How many of you only buy name brand labels for everything? 10 years ago nails were an accepted building standard. No one thought, "This deck won't last for long but who cares, we won't have to worry about it." Mr. Stultz offered to fix it for free using lag bolts. How many construction owners would do that? Clearly that shows that he is not some horrible person.
monkeyhawk (anonymous) says…
Good point, blue. My money would be on Mr. Stultz to rebuild the deck in a fashion that far exceeds building standards. Kind of like when Jack in the Box killed those people with bad meat, it became one of the safest places to eat.
It would behoove Stultz to offer to retrofit all of the decks he has built prior to the "new" standards.
westernksgirl (anonymous) says…
I have been trying to sell my home for a few months. It seems, that my 13 year old home, just doesn't compete with the newer construction .. even though it's a full finished basement, and most things that could be replaced, have been . .whether needed or not. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that most people are looking for solid construction, big established yard, good neighborhood and great schools, when there are jacuzzi tubs, double vanity's in the master and new shiny counter tops. Of course, wonder how they'll feel in a few years when there's cracks in the ceilings and numerous nail pops???? As long as the market is going towards the newer, and not better built . . .subdivisions will keep going up on every field they can find, as fast as they possibly can. I commented to my husband the other day after watching one of those HGTV shows, that it took longer to remodel these people's kitchen, than it takes most *construction companies* in town to build a new subdivision . .not even just a new house, but the entire subdivision. Sad.
aeroscout17 (anonymous) says…
Reminds me of the house I just bought here in last year. After I moved in, I realized the board that the garage door opener was attaced to was being pulled off the wall from the force of the opener. Upon inspection, I found it was only nailed in. A couple of lag bolts took care of the problem. Guess I better check my deck now.
My house is only 10 years old and every month it seems we have new squeaks in the floor. I am starting to question the construction techniques here. My previous home (in another town) was over 25 years old, and even with some ground settling around it (which I see no evidence of here) I had no squeaks at all.
aquakej (anonymous) says…
I work for a very high-end builder, and we don't do much work in Lawrence because people here arent willing to pay for it. The market won't support very many quality homes here. Lot prices are too outrageous to begin with, and once people pay for that, they dont have enough money left over to afford a quality builder. But let me assure you, builders who DO put the quality of their work as their #1 goal exist in Lawrence. It's just that you people are too cheap to afford us! Like they say, you can have it good, fast, or cheap. Pick any 2.
monkeyhawk (anonymous) says…
As far as new construction goes... I have a little story about the house I purchased at Lake of the Ozarks last year.
Summary:
A hole had to be cut in the bedroom wall to service leaking pipes in the shower
The sider never finished off with shutters and eventually contacted my tenants threatening a lien because the builder did not pay him. (I bought my own shutters.)
I just paid $200 to service the year old a.c. - bad connector and freon recharge.
The kitchen cabinets actually fell off the wall on to my tenant. Upon contacting the installer he remarked "I'm surprised it was that set, because I know the corner ones were not secured properly".
I could not get shower doors because they had not been paid either.
The front yard had to be dug up to repair a water leak.
The loose lay vinyl required restretching three times.
The list goes on, but I have learned not to buy any new construction.
For instance, I just bought a house (in another city) that was built in the 1940's. I had the cleanest inspection of any property I have ever purchased.
jafs (anonymous) says…
angels, solid construction is a long way from gold toilets. I wonder what the profit margin is on new construction - do you really think they couldn't use lag bolts (not new technology) and still make money? westerngrl, I share your feeling - it seems that many homebuyers are seduced by surface glitter. As long as people care more about image than reality, new housing will continue to be poorly built and overpriced.
Godot (anonymous) says…
I was hanging around when those houses in that subdivision were being built; some were well done, most were just slapped up as quickly as possible; others that are really quesionable are the ones in Prairie Park. I called them "disposable" houses when I went through them prior their being finished out.
If you want a solidly built house, look for one built prior to 1980.
craigers (anonymous) says…
blue I'm with you on this one. Why in the world would you say no to somebody offering to rebuild the deck at no cost to her and then go have somebody else do it for $7500? You know she isn't going to pay for that deck either way you look at it. The main thing is yes Stultz took the easy way out with the nails, but what company didn't do that at that point? It is just that theirs haven't fallen yet. And Stultz is taking responsibility for the incident and offered to make it right. I don't think she has a "hip" (get it?) to stand on for the deck costs if she goes to court after the company's offer.
dlhj (anonymous) says…
My house was built over 100 years ago in Lawrence. The foundation is still completely solid as are the floors. We have done a lot of work to the house- lots of things we *wanted* to do, they weren't necessary to the structure of the house. The basic structure of the house is original and still in great shape. My husband and I will never buy new construction in Lawrence- the lots are so expensive that to have a decently constructed house would cost a fortune.
dlhj (anonymous) says…
And while nails may have been acceptable by city code for holding a deck to a house (no idea why this was acceptable), even I- with absolutely no knowledge of building- can use common sense and figure out that nails aren't going to hold a deck.
ladyspencer (anonymous) says…
It sounds to me that she will most likely be hiring some sleazoid lawyer to sue for the $7500 needed to replace the deck (plus punative damages, mental stress, pain and suffering, etc. etc.
Blue73harley your statement is so far off base, and very jugemental for someone you don't even know. How do I know this? I was on that deck when it came down. We're just thankful my mother didn't break her hip again, and that the other 3 people on the deck were not injured. The city says it WAS built to code but the insurance company doesn't want to pay out because they say it WASN't built to code. See any finger pointing here? We'll see what Sandy Prager has to say.
To set the record straight, Mom declined Mr. Stultz offer to rebuild because 1. she had already entered into another agreement with Deck Doctors and 2. Mr. Stultz wanted to use some of the existing materials and we know that lumber has been compromised. Besides she dealt with him years ago on some windows that were not installed properly and rotted and had to be replaced, his answer to her on that? Not my problem.
Mom just wants her deck rebuilt so she can relax, read a good book and enjoy her twilight years. Nobody is getting rich here, just trying to right a wrong.
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
Careful there moneyhawk. There are downsides to old construction too such as asbestos, lead paint, lead plumbing and inadequate electrical service to name a few.
I've got horror stories to tell about my house constructed in 1974 too. No shut offs under ANY of the 5 sinks in the house, termites attracted by wooden forms left in the foundation, collapesed ductwork in the slab on the main floor, etc.
I think they are all Money Pits.
mommaeffortx2 (anonymous) says…
my friend just had a house built brand new and there have been a few problems, no above ground porch thank goodness, but it seems like she has lucked out, her builder has come every time she has had a problem and fixed it and if it was something that had been contacted out he has made all the calls and still made sure the problem was delt with. I would say a builder is only as good as his follow up is.
Now did the man in this instace say if he was going to take care of this womans deck?
He knew that his work was at fault even though he followed code but still he knew this would most likly happen. And what about all the other decks pre 2000? will he go do a fix on them?
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
Ladyspencer - it sure doesn't sound like I'm off base. Good luck with Ms Prager...and whatever lawyer comes after. I'm glad no one was hurt.
i_have_only_valid_opinions (anonymous) says…
ladyspencer-
Thanks for the firsthand insight. That explains alot. Glad your mother wasn't hurt and sorry for the headaches of having to deal with that. Sounds like I won't be using Mr. Stutz to build my deck next summer. Not because he can't do a good job, but if what you say about him not taking full responsibility for his work is true that would sway my decision.
Does anyone know if you have to have a permit from the city to build a deck that is maybe 24-30" off the ground (and in a fenced backyard)?
monkeyhawk (anonymous) says…
Blue, the electrical and plumbing are all new. The previous owner (known personally to me for over 20 years) replaced most of the sheetrock, remodeled, installed a new HVAC and painted the entire house. As far as asbestos and lead paint... I have to admit I did not consider that. Makes me want to look over my inspection again! Plus, I just put in a call to the old owners. Thanks for the heads up.
ladyspencer (anonymous) says…
Just want the insurance company to pay for the deck repair blue. Not a penny more. After all that's what she has insurance for.
girly (anonymous) says…
If the deck was built 7 years ago, I bet there was some recent evidence of the deck pulling away from the house before it actually fell. Maybe the owner has some responsibility to maintain the deck and check for problems.
Andini (anonymous) says…
I wonder if the nails and wood were purchased at wal-mart????
Pro_Lawrence (anonymous) says…
I think lag screws are not required in Leavenworth, but then again, you can build a swimming pool and the city doesn't require a fence around it either.
gphawk89 (anonymous) says…
I'm not a carpenter and have very little experience in doing this type of work, but it seems obvious even to me that 16 penny nails are not the correct fastener for this job (unless you just use a whole bunch of them). Any builder should know this. And lag bolts are not that expensive; the builder probably just didn't want to spend the extra few minutes it would take to install the correct bolts. Fast construction = shoddy construction (in general).
livinthedream (anonymous) says…
Now tell me if I am wrong as I bought a house 3 years ago, but I thought that at some point the homeowner has to fix things that go wrong. I also didn't think the builder has to pay for what your insurance doesn't?
Again, please tell me if I am wrong.
I wish Mr Stultz would've built my home that way when things go wrong after 12 years I could get him to fix it for free.
monkeyhawk (anonymous) says…
"you can build a swimming pool and the city doesn't require a fence around it either."
That is so untrue. Every city in the area has fence requirements for swimming pools. Some are 4', some are 6', but all require enclosures.
leeannku (anonymous) says…
Posted by livinthedream (anonymous) on June 29, 2006 at 12:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Now tell me if I am wrong as I bought a house 3 years ago, but I thought that at some point the homeowner has to fix things that go wrong. I also didn't think the builder has to pay for what your insurance doesn't?
Again, please tell me if I am wrong.
I wish Mr Stultz would've built my home that way when things go wrong after 12 years I could get him to fix it for free.
----------------------------------------
To livingthedream: If you'd had a home build by Mr. Stultz, you would probably have already had to replace the majority of big items before 12 years. If I'd had the money I wouldn't have had to wait until this year.
My home was built by him in 1993, and I finally saved enough money to replace all my leaky windows and defective siding, since these too were not his problem. They leaked after the first rain, and throughout the 13 years I've lived here. I finally got tired of having to try to caulk around them every spring and had them completely replaced. I don't think its too much to expect a new house to have watertight windows and siding that won't rot off. I agree homeowners are going to be responsible for repairs, I just didn't realize they'd be the day after the house was completed and I moved in.
And after my neighbors deck fell, I crawled under my deck and installed lag bolts to secure my deck to my house, since it too was only nailed on.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist, let alone a builder who knows anything about basic construction principles to know that nailing a structure like that to a house isn't adequate.
I thought buying a new home would prevent me from having to make such costly repairs after only 13 years. What a fool. Wish I'd bought a 100 year old house.
New construction in this town in the average price range is pretty shoddy, but I agree people are too busy looking at the media room and the jacuzzi tub to see that shingles and siding are already falling off the house as I noticed while on the Home Builder's tour.
Pywacket (anonymous) says…
Oldenuf nailed it (heh heh) with his first post. I knew a builder in Lawrence at that time and decks (and how they were secured) was one of his hot buttons.
Any builder worth his salt knew better than to nail decks to the side of the house and did it right, regardless of code. Anyone who knew better and endangered lives anyway to save a few bucks (as some of you seem to find quite justified) is morally bankrupt. Anyone who just plain did not know better is probably not in the business anymore, as there was probably a lot more he didn't know.
It disturbs me that so many think it fine to do something technically legal even if it's morally wrong. Do you feel that way about dr/dentist procedures? If Dr B is certain that a certain aortic valve repair technique leads to increased risk later, but a better technique would cost more to do, should she go with the rest of the herd and use the faulty technique until it's banned or should she do it the best way she knows how, even if she risks losing insurance money on the more-expensive procedure? I realize this is not entirely parallel... just trying to raise thoughts about moral obligation.
I could better understand the attitude about the builder "just trying to make a living" if it weren't for the danger of physical harm. Yeah... if you have to cut corners, use cheaper paint, or whatnot. But if you know (and I believe most builders in the 80s DID) that decks should be secured by lag bolts & screws, and that, if nailed on, the structure could fail, leading to death or injury, you are morally obligated to do the right thing.
Homeowners do have some responsibility to protect themselves. But elderly ladies with no background in construction should be able to trust, to some extent, that whomever built her house, the inspectors who looked at it when she bought it, etc., were doing their job with her safety in mind--regardless of whatever lame city codes were in play at the time.
Must we all become building experts before we buy a house? of engineers before we buy a new car? If the car fails catastrophically, people can sue the motor co., regardless of what the automotive standards were at the time. Because usually the company knew they were trading safety for savings, even if the law allowed it. I see the same principle here.
As for the insurance creeps--talk about morally bankrupt!!!-- It's about time we all stop being so complacent about them. An enormous percentage of their revenues are spent paying people to figure out how to avoid paying out on claims. They should send their own inspector and alert homeowners (rather than burying such details in fine print) when there's something blatantly wrong (i.e., not covered) with the house the person is moving into.
Pywacket (anonymous) says…
That should read, "OR engineers....," not "of..." in penultimate paragraph, first line... Sorry for any confusion!
Godot (anonymous) says…
"As for the insurance creeps--talk about morally bankrupt!!!-- It's about time we all stop being so complacent about them. An enormous percentage of their revenues are spent paying people to figure out how to avoid paying out on claims. They should send their own inspector and alert homeowners (rather than burying such details in fine print) when there's something blatantly wrong (i.e., not covered) with the house the person is moving into."
Homebuyers are supposed to hire their own inspectors to point out mechanical defaults before they finalize their purchases. This is common practice. Ever heard of the phrase "mechanical inspection?"
i_have_only_valid_opinions (anonymous) says…
Posted by plumberscrack (anonymous) on June 29, 2006 at 1:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"I hate to rain in on anyone's parade BUT lag screws were required all along per code! Even pre-2000. What the city is saying is that the code required lag screws but building inspections allowed the contractor to use nails by not calling them on it!"
If this is true, it would explain why the guy was so quick to offer to rebuild the deck for free. I was wondering why he volunteered if he continually claimed nothing else was his fault. Can you tell us where to go for the proper codification of this topic? If you are correct, the deck builders in town are going to be working for free fixing improper construction for a long time (or facing alot of lawsuits). Code number and location? Where to look?
ladyspencer (anonymous) says…
http://www.lawrenceneighres.org/Build...
Deck Construction Requirements
One and Two Family Dwelling
construction requirements:
The deck and stairs shall be designed and constructed to support a minimum live load of 40 PSF and a minimum dead load of 10 PSF. Rim joists or ledger boards not less than 2 inches x 2 inches shall be attached flush against the house and properly flashed to insure weather tightness. Lag screws shall be a minimum of 1/2 inches in size and installed every 16 inches on center and penetrate at 1 1/2 inches into a structured member within the house. If ledger board are to be used, solid blocking material shall be installed the full depth of the joist and shall not be less than 2 inches in thickness. Floor joists shall be attached to rim joists by approved joist hangers. Stairs stringers shall be secured to column(s) or structural member of structure with lag screws.
i_have_only_valid_opinions (anonymous) says…
thank you for the info, ladyspencer. sounds like some builders better buy a good supply of lag screws for some upcoming free repairs.
Pywacket (anonymous) says…
Godot--I may have been unclear on my meaning. Of course everyone has a mech. inspection done when they buy. The lender would insist, even if the buyer or seller didn't know any better. What I'm talking about are the things that are OK'd by the mechanical inspector and okay by local codes but still not covered by the insurance company. Those who get caught by this snag are usually people who can least afford to suffer a huge loss. Those farther up the socio-economic/education ladder do a better job at reading & comprehending the fine print or hiring someone to do it for them. I read every word of anything I sign but don't think an old lady (or young buyer) should have to lose thousands because she trusted--trusted the builder, trusted the inspector, trusted her insurer--trusted that someone would have done it right or at least pointed out to her that it hadn't been done right so she could fix it.
If the insurer sent their inspector--who was well-versed in what would/would not be covered by that company (something the local mech. insp. would not know)--they could alert people on specific items that were amiss, even if the item (such as an attached deck) had passed the regular mechanical inspection.
I'm also thinking of situations such as we have read about in Katrina's wake, where insurers refused to settle homeowner claims because (technically) the ruined home was destroyed by flooding rather than a direct hurricane hit. (Never mind that the flooding wouldn't have happened if not for the hurricane.)
Again, the people who most often get burned on insurers' technicalities are the poor, poorly educated, elderly, etc. Working people who are trying to get ahead by not renting all their lives. I think an insurer inspection would be a cheap, easy way to avoid heartache down the road.
I respect your views if you disagree, but I stand firmly by my belief that insurance companies are soulless weasels. ;-)
merrill (anonymous) says…
Seem like homes in the older neighborhoods might be worth some money. In many cases perhaps buying an older eastside home( Old West Lawrence in now eastside as well) and doing a rehab job might be worth the time and money. Might not save any money but just maybe the house was built to last a few more decades.
i_have_only_valid_opinions (anonymous) says…
Old homes are good, just watch out for settling issues (especially in Old West) and asbestos in the popcorn textured ceilings. I think pre-70's the ceiling textures frequently had asbestos, and that's not to mention really old homes. But typically they have good bones, that's why I purchased in Old West last year.
Berserk (anonymous) says…
Yea, this is all common sense stuff here.
Nails are not structural fasteners. Never have been.
I can't believe someone is getting $7500 to replace a deck either, thats just rediculous, it will probably cost that builder about $800 + labor. Maybe $2200 total.
I am not even going to speculate how much cheaper it will be if they are using undocumented labor and inferior building materials.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Plumberscrack-
The City seems to have a habit of looking the other way. Last time I checked it is still illegal to hire illegal aliens.
Isn't the city a willing participant in a crime when it grants building permits and contractor's licenses to the businesses that hire illegals?
In light of the fact that the illegal workforce is depressing American wages and cost taxpayers billions per year, isn't the City, then, hurting the same taxpayers who pay them, and for whom they are suppossed to be working ? Just a thought.
No answer is necessary. I am already familiar with the stock replies to these kinds of questions.
OldEnuf2BYurDad (anonymous) says…
I've been thinking about this all day. I cannot shake this from my head:
"How do they sleep at night?"
These contractors knew that for about $20 in materials, they could have made decks that were safe.
Do these builders have any idea what a wrongful death suit would do to them?
merrill (anonymous) says…
I too have a heard a story or two about big name local builders hiring unskilled migrant workers to construct homes and doing some shoddy concrete work as well.
About 1989 our children coined the phrase "cardboard houses" after listening to us comment in amazement as to how quickly neighborhoods could be built. At that time we were living at 6th and Sierra.
jessbar (anonymous) says…
I would like to make a couple of comments.
I was on Nancy's deck when it fell. But for the grace of God no one was hurt, especially Nancy, who is recovering from a broken hip/surgery.
Nancy Davis is one of the finest people I have ever known. She is an incredible human being, and having spent her entire career working at Lawrence Memorial as a nurse in the delivery room, she has touched a LOT of lives in the Lawrence area. Anyone who knows her would tell you she is a good woman, an honest person, and the last thought on her mind would be to "make money" over an unfortunate incident.
Regarding the comment that inspection would have shown evidence of the deck beginning to move away from the house--- Wrong! I powerwashed that deck and refinished it last year and it was snug against the house. 2 months ago I looked it over again to see if I needed to touch up any areas. The deck was secure against the house, so there was no gap that I think you A)assume was there, when you weren't and B)that the 75 year old lady wouldn't think to look for something like that. Maybe she wouldn't, but I would, and did. The deck just eventually gave way. Because nails were holding it up. Period.
Nancy had already entered into a contract with another company to replace the deck when the offer was made by the builder to replace it. [She and her insurance company discussed her getting estimates, which she did, and she made a choice. All of this was done with the belief that her insurance company would pay the tab. Then they decided not to pay because it was not "up to code". ] Re-use of the deck's wood to build a "new" one would not be advisable since, as her daughter stated, it was all compromised due to the fall.
None of us involved have said or felt that the deck was a piece of shoddy workmanship. The deck was a sufficient one. The problem that caused the fall falls to one thing only. Lack of lags. Period.
And as far as any comments made by others about what the builder should or shouldn't have been responsible for, I will say only this. While I realize there is an all-important "bottom line" when you run a business, ones integrity, honesty, and standing-behind-ones-product should always be just as important. That is not aimed at any one particular person, that is aimed at everyone in business. And when it comes to insurance companies, I won't begin to go there, as I am sure there is a limit as to how much I can type here, as well as one on how much a person wants to read. My home is insured by a different insurer, but I always get tickled if I call my agent about a problem and his first words are always "well, you might not want to make a claim on that, it could raise your rates, and you'd be better off paying the deductible amount plus the additional(enter amount here from $200 to $800, which were the amounts of 2 instances) rather than chance a rate hike".
Thieves.
Thanks for your comments, westernksgirl and plumberscrack.
ASBESTOS (anonymous) says…
Any contractor that would use nails instead of lags simply DOES not CARE about much of anything. If this turns into a blast the homebuilders and contractors...so be it, you earned this one.
THis is about keeping all the dollars in their pocket. These developers are the very same ones that want to build in a flood plain and take no responsibility "Because the city approved the plan", these low lifes are the same ones that pay "JOSE" and "JAUN" $5 an hour bacause they have a hammer and are fresh and hungry from Mexico. Americans will do this job and do it right, but you gotta pay them, and no, you are getting charged the same from these crappy contractors...they are just pocketing the difference of what they are charging YOU for building a house in American wages and what they are actually paying "Jose" ans Jaun". That is why a deck costs $7500. In order to make the guy $5000 in an afternoon.
These guys are the same low-lifes that ignore asbestos regulations "because they are tooexpensive and drive up the cost of a project". Well they are cheaper than paying $500,000 on average for an asbestos related illness and corresponding death. These are the guys that ignore lead based paint regulations all the time on pre 1978 residences...because the "cost too much" and are "Stupid regulations".
again! where in the hell is the city< and state regulatory agencies!!!!
we pay you morons a salary to do a job!!! If you can't do it....resign! Let us hire someone petter and more productive.
Lawrence had a backlog of "occupancy certifications" of I believe 3500 in 2002. It appears that the codes office and construction inspectors need to get off their behinds and get into the game. After all they are the players who are ther to protect the people.
ASBESTOS (anonymous) says…
This is exactly why an apartment blew up because of a gas station leak.
lack of official oversight! Lack of city officers to enforce those whom are required BY LAW to be enforced.
Our CIvil Servant had camn well better start working for us for all those lovely benefits they receive or they had better get busy looking for a new occupation. Like the folks at KDHE, you city guys need to be fired. You are there precisely for the purpose of preventing what happened to Nancy!
GEEZ!!
kslissa (anonymous) says…
Way to go ladyspencer and jessbar.
Contractors, like Highland have been putting up subpar houses in Lawrence for many years. They do just what they have to, to pass the inspections. It seems anyone can be a contractor these days. There are a few very good contractors out there, Fritzel is one. So, if you're in the market for a new home, always ask who built it and check their credentials.
The city also needs to look at hiring more inspectors. Some are apparently falling through the cracks. Obviously, they can't keep up with the outrageous building going on.
justsomewench (anonymous) says…
Posted by enforcer (anonymous) on June 29, 2006 at 6 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"I love it the city inspects houses to see who is living there but they don't pay any attention to how the houses are constructed. Perhaps they need to clean their own doorstep before making all their ridiculous ordinances."
enforcer, I've never heard of this...do tell! sounds like you have a good story.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Thanks, Plumberscrack. Your screen name cracks me up- no pun intended.
Maybe this SHOULD be the City's business. What Asbestos says is true. I have been taking roofing bids for months. The companies where you see "Jaun and Jose" working on the roofs bid just as high and higher as the very few I found who did not hire illegals.
A friend of mine found this to be the case last year when he was taking bids, too.
Do I KNOW they are illegals? No. I do know I have gone up to the workers on sites to ask for business cards(I was having problems getting calls returned because everyone is so busy)- and couldn't find anyone I could communicate with in English in the lot. That might be a clue.
I also know some construction guys that dropped names of some companies they had worked with (not for) who told me they knew the workers were illegals because they worked on some of the same projects..
You don't save any money putting Americans out of work, and they don't always do a good job.
My neighbors had a roof replaced last year- their roofers didn't speak English, either- You should see that mess. The shingles aren't even in a regular pattern. I was bragging to people how hard these guys worked because I could see them from my upstairs window- Then someone pointed out to me how corners were cut and how they nailed the shingles down anyway they happened to land.
No wonder houses are falling apart.
ASBESTOS (anonymous) says…
The contractors pay the least amount of money to purchase the most desperate third world labor they can get.
Do you really believe that some body coming from Costa Rica and Guatamala who have dirt floors and no windows is really going to know how to install them properly? Do you think they are able to read the instructions that are printed in spanich when they are illeterate? Do you expect this person to install the door properly without supervision (or put in lag bolts in a deck)?
That is the real truth behind this mess the pay them $5 or $6 an hour because they can. These contractors also do not pay for these guys when they have accidents and injure themselves. There is no workman's comp claim made, there is no medical attention usually. We knew of one guy that was given asprin for a broken arm, from the "company doctor".
This is clear exploitation. The CIty of Lawrence needs to regulate these yahoos who are just fleecing the consumer with low end crap in the form of a house, lining their own pockets by expoliting desperate people.
If the "business wizards" treated these laborers like anything more than "meat", they would have to pay them "American wages", which would cut into their bogus inflated windfall.
Inspectors, you gotta step UP!!!
ASBESTOS (anonymous) says…
If people really cared about the Illegal workers...they would turn in those that exploit them.
The very reason they are hired and paid a low price is be cause.....they are illegal and can be exploited!!!
bandito (anonymous) says…
Anyone from Lawrence knows what kind of builder Tim Stultz is.
Just went out and checked my deck! My house was built in 1995 by Heath Seitz and it's bolted in. Hmmm....interesting how Seitz was doing this in '95 despite the "code".
Godot (anonymous) says…
If putting on a roof is so easy that any uneducated Mexican can do it, then why do we have to hire them to do it? Why can't we do it ourselves?
Assuming that Mexicans are innately endowed with the knowledge of how to install a roof is racist. If you hire a roofing contractor to do your roof, and he or she uses illegals, you deserve to have a roof that leaks.
Pro_Lawrence (anonymous) says…
Monkeyhawk,
The City of Leavenworth doesn't require a fence around a pool. I checked with their codes enforcement. They get the question at least once a year, but nobody has ever petitioned the city to make the rule.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Asbestos and Godot- I agree with both of you. So, what good does it do to call ICE? If you and I can see what goes on, so do they. They very rarely follow up on complaints or do anything to penalize the creeps exploiting the illegals and driving down American wages.
Even the big pallet company bust we saw in the news recently was nothing more than a dog and pony show- Most of the illegals were released with a notice to (dis)appear.
If you want to give it a try- Call ICE-
1-866-347-2423
Godot, I absolutely refused to hire a company who hired illegals to roof the house. It took some time, but I found an American roofer who works mostly alone, but had some helpers he hires that work with him part time.They work a lot slower than the slap happy job I watched next door, but have done an excellent job.
When I got his name and called him he didn't say, "Sorry, I'm an American, and roofing is a job Americans won't do". He was happy to get the work, and I was thrilled to give a job to guys in this town who need and want to work.
As an added bonus, his bid was the lowest I received, although I would have paid more if he had bid higher.
I know I helped someone, they helped me, and the money I paid for the job will stay in the local economy and not be sent to Mexico. AND I got a quality job from a skilled craftsman I could communicate with.
As strongly as I feel about this, it's still hard to agree that anyone hiring illegals deserve a leaky roof. Afterall, they are paying as much or more than they would for skilled professionals. I had to invest a whole lot of time sifting through criminals hiring criminals before I found a legal workers.It looks like they have managed to run the legal workers out of business for the most part. I imagine a lot of people don't have (or find) the time to go through that.
Too bad for them and the American workers who lost yet another job to the illegals and the criminals who hire them.
irishblues (anonymous) says…
I've been on that deck, and on that roof. The family does an amazing job of preventative maintenance on Mrs. Davis' home. More so than most, if the truth be told. I cannot grasp the fact that it simply fell with a normal every day weight load and use! The builder and/or the insurance company should build her a NEW deck with NEW lumber, even if it's just for HIS reputation restoration. Now everyone that has a home built by him should be out checking their decks as they well should. The Insurance Commissioner should be up in arms, the City Inspector should be on the paper trail to follow up on every other home/deck he built before someone gets seriously injured. Imagine what could have happened had Mrs. Davis been home alone when that deck collapsed! Will it take the injury or worse of another adult or child of a deck collapse before "we" do anything to prevent this to happen again?
Godot (anonymous) says…
The insurance company that should pony up on this one is Stultz'.
withmymom (anonymous) says…
Well my Mother just heard from Stultz insurane man and said that he wasn't liable after 10 years. Mr. Stultz may try to forget about all this , but I hope like h___ the rest of Lawrence doesn't. Yes he offered, but he wanted to use some of the old wood and who knows who he would farm out this work to. He should step up ,even though he ... doesn't really have to , and try to become a reputable builder with a conscience. I'm a true believer in " What Goes Around, Comes Around"
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Gotcha.
Note to self- Don't hire Stultz or buy anything he builds.
With all the bad PR this has received, he is not only an unethical businessman, he is also not a smart one.
Godot (anonymous) says…
So, the insurance company is saying that a 12 year old deck that lasted for 12 years fullfilled its duty? I might agree with that. Time and gravity take their toll.