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Archive for Monday, March 12, 2012

Kansas House OKs changes to concealed carry law

March 12, 2012

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— Concealed carry permit holders in Kansas would be allowed to carry their weapons in more places under a bill heading to the Senate.

The measure would allow concealed carry permit holders to carry weapons in public buildings that lack adequate security, such as metal detectors and security guards. The House approved the changes Monday on a 70-54 vote.

The changes would apply to all public buildings. Allowing the weapons is also viewed as an economic issue because of the cost associated with providing metal detectors and guards at entrances to each public building across Kansas.

Hospitals, colleges and nursing homes would be able to exempt themselves for a specific period of years by sending notification to the attorney general's office.

Comments

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

So---you have to notify the attorney general (in other words the government) if you want to exempt yourself---and only for hospitals, colleges and nursing homes?

Are stores and restaurants considered public buildings?

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

This only applies to government buildings, not private. Those can still post.

repaste 2 years, 9 months ago

" a specific period of years" Does that mean the exemption is temporary? What is the period?

kuguardgrl13 2 years, 9 months ago

I believe it has to be renewed every few years.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

I think the original draft was for it to be a one-time four year exemption. The intent being to give the institution time to figure out how to pay for security, if they decide to go that route.

somedude20 2 years, 9 months ago

Just what we need....more friggin fat Rambos' running around who are unable to draw their weapons due to the large spillage of "muffin fat" that hangs over their waist and are unable to shoot well due to having diabetes mellitus (even the blind can get in on this one)

Hooray. I feel safer already. Don't short them a fry otherwise the drive though will become a drive-by.

Bullet the cat, hide!

JayhawkFan1985 2 years, 9 months ago

I agree with your view that the bill is a mistake, but what an inarticulate way to express yourself. I have type 2 diabetes and am offended by your lack of sensitivity. Having said that, I'd wager I'm in much better shape than you. I compete in triathlons finishing 6th in my last one.

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

Ludicrous post from somedude20. These "friggin fat Rambo's" haven't caused you any problems, have they? Try to back your statements with some proof. Otherwise, I'll just call this an emotional response, lacking any basis in reality. Pardon my directness, but concealed carry is allowed in many public places, and I'd like to see some decent evidence that that has caused more harm than good.

ljwhirled 2 years, 9 months ago

Jon Rambo was pretty well trained. I'd welcome him as a security guard, and I'm sure he would welcome the job.

The events in Oregon were's really his fault. It was mostly the Sheriff and the Sheriff's deputies that caused Jon to go to war. If they'd just let him have that meal........

Cai 2 years, 9 months ago

somedude20-

did you actually think about what you were writing before you posted it? Your opinion of the bill here is completely irrelevant. Not only, as JayhawkFan states, are you insensitive about diabetes and weight issues ...and people, in general, but you've also clearly demonstrated that you have no clue.

For example - diabetes mellitus doesn't cause blindness except in rare, complicated cases. Second, most concealed carry tend to carry over the shoulder - in a shoulder holster - not at the waist, and even for those that do carry at the waist, the gun usually sits at the side, not the front. Third, do you know what it takes to get a concealed carry permit? Clearly not - a blind or semi-blind wo/man wouldn't be able to pass the requisite proficiency tests.

Think, before you post. Then maybe we can have an actual dialogue.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

Better move to Illinois, dude. That's the only state with no legal concealed carry.

Mark Currie 2 years, 9 months ago

And so far how many legal concealed carry license holders have been involved in a shooting, since it went into effect in 2007? What are you afraid of? I would be worried about the criminals that can't legally carry. And as the fat rambo crap comment. I am overweight, don't think of myself as a Rambo, and I can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with a handgun.

Loki 2 years, 9 months ago

Anyone can shoot accurately at a range... in a stressful situation is a totally different story, but how you conduct yourself then isn't tested in getting a conceal and carry permit.

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

"Anyone can shoot accurately at a range" Nope. "how you conduct yourself then isn't tested" Yea, that's true, though I feel, at least personally, that I wouldn't attempt to draw a weapon unless all other options to stay alive were exhausted. Thank you, btw, for posting a sincere comment.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Practice does help Loki. Don't you think baseball players practice hitting? Or better yet, field goal kickers. They practice all the time but only get tested under pressure situations. Point is the more you practice the more you add skill to the equation. Increases the odds.

gudpoynt 2 years, 9 months ago

Good point!

Shanking a field goal in the big game is exactly the same as a CCW license holder missing his or her target. (The target, of course, being someone who has not been arrested, let alone convicted, of a crime).

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Merely an analogy. You are the second person that doesn't understand this concept.

To clarify, the target is someone who just pulled a knife on me and my wife while we are walking to our car in a parking lot where there is no law enforcement present.

Gee, I wish it was like you suggest. After they rape my wife and are caught, arrested, and convicted I can take my CCW license and gun with me to the prison where upon showing them said CCW license they will escort me to his cell where I can "blow his brains out" without any danger to anyone else.

Mark Currie 2 years, 9 months ago

Pardon me, but BS. I have spent time in a range and believe me some people in there cannot hit squat at 10 feet. I was referring to the person above who called us a bunch of fat rambos that couldn't hit anything. Belive me I have been in stressful situations. The CCW course I took was so stressful that my gun barrel was shaking & still all 25 of my shots were lethal in an FBI Q target. I just reacted to being catagorized as a fat rambo that couldn't hit anything. It is all about training, and more training and practice. We are not out to hurt you, but to protect ourselves, and our loved ones. I would gladly lay down my life to save my wife, my kids, and my grandkids among others. Again, what are you afraid of? Be more worried about the meth head that does a home invasion on you (happens in Topeka all the time), than a fat old fart like me.

Alexander Smith 2 years, 9 months ago

Okay wonder boy..so were supposed to take your expert advice because you TOOK a course???? Well coming from my uncle who served on the police force patrolling East St. Louis for 20 years. He will flat out tell you that you are wrong and need to go back home. Your dead wrong. The last time I checked YOU are not OUT to protect me. YOU are out to protect your right to play COWBOY. I will gaurantee YOU would not lay down your life to protect ME or my family.

Also, if I guy wanted to take someone out, you would not see it coming. You will be dead before you had a chance to reach for your weapon. Also a little law clarification so you gun happy nuts would become more educated. If you are in a mall and someone pulls a gun. You shoot them. He lives. Unless you can prove without a doubt that YOUR life was directly threatened (meaning he had the gun pointed in your face or he was directly including you in his/her threat). you go to jail for attempted murder. YES this will happen because our legal system is THAT jacked up. Also, if you shoot him/her before they do.. guess what.. YOU go to jail again.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

"...And there is another type of Caps Lock user who doesn’t capitalize whole sentences but INSTEAD capitalizes a few SPECIFIC words for EMPHASIS. Now read a sentence like that aloud, shouting every time you come to a capitalized word, and tell me you do not sound like an absolute freakin’ lunatic. This method can turn even basic known facts into crazy-sounding gibberish (“The SQUARE of the HYPOTENUSE of a RIGHT triangle equals the SUM of the squares of the OTHER two sides”)...) http://pjmedia.com/blog/tips-for-not-appearing-crazy-on-the-internet/?singlepage=true (from a source)

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

That made me think of the scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

I think defense of others is also a legitimate claim.

ljwhirled 2 years, 9 months ago

True, but you better be willing to defend it in court. Either way it goes, it is going to be expensive.

Jean Robart 2 years, 9 months ago

just be sure you know where to carry out this "practice"

Kim Murphree 2 years, 9 months ago

There sure is alot of stupid out there these days.

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm sure you have something more valid than that to add to the discussion.

gudpoynt 2 years, 9 months ago

Maybe half the posters on here believe that there are still some places that are inappropriate for concealed glocks.

JayhawkFan1985 2 years, 9 months ago

Many courthouses around the don't have this type of security in place. Even Wyatt Earp made the cowboys check their guns in when they entered town. Given the shooting in Sanford today, this is just a bad idea. We may live in a western state, but this ain't the wild west needing frontier justice.

Alexander Smith 2 years, 9 months ago

Economic issue my BUTT. This is a bunch of gun happy nuts for some STRANGE reason think the indians are out to scalp us or we are going to be invaded by England.

The normal citizen is NOT qulified to be a enforcer of the law and safety. They are NOT trained like the police to keep their EGO.. let me repeat EGO and emotions under control.

You all want to see something scarry. Go to a gun show and just watch the people and their EGO. They have mild people go in, and while there all of a sudden they think they are tough and can handle anything.

I PRAY to the LORD that the Senate shoots this down. Protecting the people falls on the Police who are TRAINED.. let me repeat.. TRAINED to handle situations.

If this passes.. I can see it hitting the news now "Person killed in gun fight at KU Football game by drunk student".

People, the sole purpose of the 2nd amendment is not truly held in the spirit for when it was designed anymore. We are NOT expanding the country in the US. THERE is NO threat from the natives or wildlife. We DO NOT hunt to provide our food.. (called a grocery store), WE DO have a solid military and law force. and the big one.. NO COUNTRY would invade the USA with conventional warfare because they could not sustain the troops pluse we have untold million of people with guns. SO, the people that HAVE supported this insane bill need to move their brain 100+ years forward. This is one legal document that HAS NOT kept up with the times because to many AIRHEADS think that all our freedoms ride on the concept of having a gun?

If this bill does pass I will be MORE worried about the gun happy loonie with a concealed gun who thinks they are bad arss because they have cold steel strapped under the arm pit then a robber.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Why do you insist that civilians who wish to carry for self defense need to be trained like policemen. I don't have to be trained like a fireman to own a fire extinguisher and know how to use it. The two are completely unrelated.

Go to a Nascar event and see all the crazy drunk fools there that think they are race car drivers. We shouldn't let a single one have a drivers license.

Obviously you are not up on your history. Re-read the 2nd Amendment. Your interpretation is way off.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

I've never heard of a fire extinguisher killing people. I suppose it could happen, but I've not heard of is being used for that purpose.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

a·nal·o·gy [uh-nal-uh-jee] 1. A similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

The two things you are comparing are not similar.

Guns do not = fire extinguishers nor are they similar.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

The comparison is not between guns and fire extinguishers. The comparison is that private ownership of either does not require the same level of training as those that utilize the same equipment in their professions.

I own several guns and the last thing on earth I want to do with any of them is take a human life.

Jean Robart 2 years, 9 months ago

I think YOURS is way off. The right to keep and bear arms if for the purpose of having a "well regulated militia"

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

In 2008 and 2010, the Supreme Court issued two Second Amendment decisions. In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

JayhawkFan1985 2 years, 9 months ago

Sometimes, small groups of people make bad decisions. The supreme court is not exempt as they are humans. The current supreme court likes to legislate from the bench even though the majority was appointed by GOP presidents. I believe this decision was 5/4 indicating a split in thinking.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

The supreme court sees it differently.

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

Show me that ccw does more harm than good.

kc1964 2 years, 9 months ago

absolutely correct. well regulated being the key words.

Mark Currie 2 years, 9 months ago

Ok, I give up. Tired of being called names and all you people who are scared of guns.remember about 30,000 people were killed by cars last year. 10% of Those alcohol related. Have a nice day.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

I don't see anyone defending careless, drunk or inattentive driving. As has been pointed out many, many times before, comparing cars and guns is an apple/orange sort of thing. I would go further and say it's a mouse/elephant sort of thing.

Matthew Herbert 2 years, 9 months ago

Seems to me it should be the other way around; you should have to apply for guns TO BE allowed on the premises not have to go out of your way to keep guns out.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

You are well within your rights to post your premises not to allow concealed, or open, carry. We are talking about public/government places. What you are suggesting is exactly what happened. The Personal Protection and Family Act was passed which now allows them on the premises (public/government places)

You are getting what you asked for. Now you want more? Now you want to trample on peoples constitutional rights? Why?

Matthew Herbert 2 years, 9 months ago

Constitutional rights? That's an awfully loose interpretation. When the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms in the formation of local militias I highly doubt they intended for us to carry our guns into city hall and post-secondary ed classrooms.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Do you think they meant to only use our right of free speech in the privacy of our home?

You may practice any religion as long as it's hidden away from the public eyes?

How can they support all these other rights everywhere, but only the second amendment can be practiced in your home?

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

The supreme court interprets it differently.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Nowhere in the First Amendment does it say "right to bear arms in the formation of local militias". Talk about a loose interpretation. Remember the context of when and why the founding fathers wrote these Amendments? They had recently finished battling a 'state' militia (ENGLAND). The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms (to fight against a tyrannical state militia). It doesn't say the right of the MILITIA to keep and bear arms. The First Amendment contrasts the people with the militia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7l...

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

Since when do signs stop those who are illegally carrying from doing so. It seems to me that you really beleive criminals will obey no carry signs.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

First off, a disclaimer: I loath guns as much as some people love them.

One thing that never comes up in these discussions (and I use the word loosely) is that the more guns that are out there, the easier it is for someone to get a gun illegally. Also, from what I understand, they can be sold at gun shows with no background check. Of course, "if we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns." (I'd like to meet the super intelligence who could come up with that clever bumper sticker.)

Anyway, my point is that there are a lot of guns floating around that are owned or possessed by people who probably shouldn't have them and it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle. Even if restrictive gun laws were passed, the guns wouldn't just disappear.

I've never heard a police officer/sheriff/deputy or heard of one who wanted the public armed. Quite the opposite---it makes their job more dangerous.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

If I were a cop and you asked me, "When you get to a scene how many people do you want to be armed?" of course they will say no one but the PD. But there are many many LEO's that believe and support concealed carry.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

There is no consensus among Law Enforcement on concealed carry. LEOs will probably have the same variety of opinion on this as we see on these forums.

As for University Police, I think so much of their job is playing politics, that you can't really trust an "official statement" on the subject. If they disagree with university admin, they'd be out of a job.

hipper_than_hip 2 years, 9 months ago

It's not the licensed gun carrier who scares me, it's those that our legal system has deemed unfit/ineligible to possess a firearm but still carry because they don’t care about the law.

chedder 2 years, 9 months ago

If you believe the 2A is outdated and irrelevant, work to change it, not circumvent it. I'm disappointed that this has been amended to allow University exemption. I need some stress relief, I'm going to the range.

SouthWestKs 2 years, 9 months ago

verity,

You need to go talk to a real cop.. They like it when the civilians are armed, makes there job easier.. Also if you think the guy with the CCP is gona save your butt you better be standing beside him.. Other wise he is gona let you die, remember he is going to save himself & his family.. Also if he wanted to be a cop he would have joined the police force..

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

Who is a "real" cop and who isn't? You mean those people in police uniforms aren't all "real"?

Where in the world did you get the idea that I thought a CCP would save me? I think just the opposite and don't want one anywhere near me.

Matthew Herbert 2 years, 9 months ago

Normal Americans haven't felt the need to pack heat 24/7 since the days of Dodge City and public dualing. Hop on your horse and ride on into the sunset there cowboy

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

I must be missing something here, but if I have to admit it I'd like to know what I'm admitting to. : *)

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

So your logic is if we cannot find a way to keep guns from getting into the "wrong" hands then the solution is to ban them completely?

And then to expand that logic, if someone abuses the 1st amendment and provokes and persuades someone to kill another by inciting them into a frenzy you solution would be to eliminate free speech?

Do you really want to be able to pick and choose which amendment we honor? That is a very scary thought indeed.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

Not sure who you're replying to, but what I said was that the genie's out of the bottle---"Even if restrictive gun laws were passed, the guns wouldn't just disappear." (I quote myself.)

As far as the second amendment goes, we obviously don't agree on the interpretation of what it says.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Fair enough verity. We do see it differently. And we can discuss it openly and civilly thanks to the 1st amendment.

Another court may rule entirely differently but for now the laws are what they are.

Personally I don't think it's that big of an issue. The people you read about in the news involved with shootings more than likely don't have CCW permits. The people that take the time and effort to do it "right" are going to do it responsibly, for the majority.

I too would like to keep guns away from criminal types as well as eliminate every possibility of preventing a senseless accident where a child gets a hold of a gun and shoots themselves or a sibling. But I don't believe that taking away the rights of those that are responsible is the right course of action. Education goes a long ways. Require more of that if you want. But be rational about it. Don't just quote cliche's about Wyatt Earp and Dodge City all the time. And I'm not referring to you there. Others do.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

Oopsie---I don't have any---although some people may think I do.

But you did make me laugh.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

mousie, you need to get a hat that says "UNARMED PLEASE DON'T HURT ME!"

ljwhirled 2 years, 9 months ago

The British did this in the 1770's, that is why we enshrined it in our constitution.

You also don't have to quarter troops, so there's that........my wife sometimes pulls that on on me. Makes me sleep in the car.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

I will immediately notify the Attorney Generals office to make sure I'm exempt from being the victim of criminal activity while on campus.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

This old fat Rambo sure had a good time at the range yesterday showin' the boys half my age how it's done.

gudpoynt 2 years, 9 months ago

more glocks in more pants in more places.

America! F Yeah!

globehead 2 years, 9 months ago

"TOPEKA — Concealed carry permit holders in Kansas would be allowed to carry their weapons in more places under a bill heading to the Senate.".....

Good! Before, they could only carry their weapons in their holsters. Now, they can carry them in their underweae which may serve to solve this problem for future generations.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

There used to be a holster company called Seven Trees that made a holster for men that was accessed by opening the fly of your trousers and reaching in to draw the gun. AutoMags need not apply.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

Damn! The hammer on the old detective special would gouge a new navel on this fat Rambo with thunderwear!

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow! Too bad you can't get 'em in more festive colors.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Sweat stained yellow?

"No, no, it came that color"

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

I have asked this before and never got an answer but I'll try again.

For those who are against legal concealed carry, gun ownership, and especially for those that don't care about it one way or the other...

Do you ever think about, or what is your plan, when it comes to self defense when "help" is not around? The way I see it for myself, at least I am willing to accept being responsible for myself and my loved ones to try and protect them in the absence of law enforcement. If law enforcement is there then by all means let them take over. Policing is not my job. I know that.

You do realize that the courts have ruled that the police are not there to protect the individual but rather society as a whole.

So please. I really would like some feedback as to if people give it any thought to how they can and will protect themselves when confronted with a potentially life threatening situation.

Any takers out there ????? Let's discuss. As adults.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

Well, the first few things I do are ways in which I can make it extremely unlikely that I will ever be in that situation.

I don't get drunk, and wander around the alleys of downtown Lawrence at 2a. I don't antagonize my neighbors by blasting loud music at all hours of the day. I treat others with basic respect, and don't insult them. I'm mindful of what other people are doing, and if I see somebody that looks "sketchy", I make space between me and them.

If I ever find myself in a life threatening situation (God forbid), I'd defend myself and my family as well as I can, of course.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

I agree with this comment 100%, and I too, do all of these things.

However, I believe that a firearm is the best way for me to defend myself and my family. I completely respect you for not wanting to carry one, that's your choice. However, I don't think someone else should tell me I can't because they don't think it's necessary. Concealed carry does not make the world a more dangerous place, at worst, concealed carry has no effect.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm not against gun ownership, I just think there should be reasonable regulations, like a training course and demonstrated proficiency, which should be re-tested at periodic intervals.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Why yes that is me overplayed. I go just about everywhere carrying anymore. And I don't give it a second thought.

And if I remember correctly in that other thread you were getting your comments deleted by the moderators because all you wanted to do was sling insults and derogatory remarks. So please forgive me if I elect not to spar with you here.

skinny 2 years, 9 months ago

This is a free country. If someone wants to carry a gun and they have a license to do so more power to them!

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

There in lies your misconception. I don't carry a gun to protect all of you. That is not my intent. My intent is to protect myself in a life threatening situation. If I happen to be at a high school where some student is running the halls shooting everyone he see's, I won't be trying to stalk him or "take him down". That is not my job. I'll be holed up in a room with your son or daughter that happens to be in the same classroom as my son's. And if said gunman decides to come into that room and squares off his gun at me, then I will make an attempt to stop him. If I hear the police in the hallways I am perfectly happy to let them do their jobs at that point.

What work are you referring to? What more can the state do to protect me, as an individual?

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

hehe. Seems you gotta zoom in to get a response around here. So let's forget extremes. What are your real arguments? And please answer my question above. How do you plan to handle a life threatening situation?

What State Government work are are you referring to? I'm all ears.

ljwhirled 2 years, 9 months ago

Remember: When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Anyone!!??? Don't be so quick to judge those who take some personal responsibility then. If anyone has a better solution please come forth! Let us talk.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

There is no replacement for a firearm for self-defense. Pepper-spray, tazors, and martial arts have their place, but just don't match up to the effectiveness of a firearms for self-defense.

So when you pose the question, what would you do when confronted with a life-threatening situation, anti-CC folks will usually adopt the position of "it won't ever happen to me." Some will try to argue that they simply avoid these situations, but to completely avoid violence you would have to completely avoid the world.

I carry not because I'm paranoid, but because I know it's the best tool for my defense. Just like I carry a safety kit in my car, not because I'm paranoid of getting stranded, but because I acknowledged it as a possibility and prepare myself for that situation.

tomcats 2 years, 9 months ago

Well put "DillonBarnes" Everyone should prepare them selfs for any situation>

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

You lost me there thuja. What did you just say? Do you think DillonBarnes is a life threatening situation? If so, why? Just because they carry a firearm?

What do you mean when you say unattached in every moment? Oblivious? No plan. Just hope for the best?

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

From another article . . .

thuja (anonymous) replies… "The shrooms made me aware of all the aromas of the concert hall, the different smoky ones, the food ones, the personal products. There were really no bad smells that I could tell."

Coherency may not be what you will find here, Hedge . . .

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

The snozzberries taste like snozzberries.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

I feel like I should make a real response to this:

"Dillon, the only way to "prepare yourself for every possible situation" is to be unattached in every moment, and that includes to your gun, your ego, and your life."

For the record, I never said that. I try to prepare myself to the best of my ability for events that I can have control over.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

A friend who managed a grocery store in K.C. used to tell me he never worried about being robbed, his attitude was just let them have the money and they will leave. Twenty-two years ago a punk with a Rohm .25 auto fired 6 shots at him at point blank range hitting him 5 times. He saw him rushing him but never expected him to open fire. Luckily my friend is alive to tell about it but still has a bullet lodged in his neck. The punk got away with three bags of bank deposits but was found three months later. This man bought his first gun after he recovered from his wounds and has kept one nearby since then. He was in one of the first CCW classes offered in Kansas and attends related classes at least twice yearly.

Charles L Bloss Jr 2 years, 9 months ago

I am always amazed at the number of comments on gun control and abortion. Both are topics that most people will never change their minds about. Why can't you be civil to a person holding an opposing view than yours? Calling people names, like fat rambo, is not only rude, but counterproductive.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Absolutely true. The aggressive rhetoric we see only furthers the idea that the political atmosphere in the U.S. is a dichotomous system, that we have to choose left or right. In reality, most people cannot be defined by such black and white lines.

The anonymity provided by the internet has certainly not helped that fact. Both sides are guilty of name-calling and aggressive words, often not realizing that they are only hurting their own cause.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

Good morning Lynn731! For myself I welcome the name calling and stereotyping. It goes a long way to prove how narrow minded and uneducated some people choose to remain on this and so many other subjects.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

That's about what I'd expect a nerf-herder like you to say. ;)

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

I would love to have an intelligent conversation here on this subject. No one seems to want to do that. If there are other ideas out there with regard to how best to defend ones self in potentially life threatening situations I would love to hear them and debate them.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

Well, there are other options, like martial arts, pepper spray, etc.

How many times in your life have you found yourself in a life threatening situation that required the use of your gun so far?

I'm not against gun ownership, by the way, but I do think that there should be reasonable requirements, like training and tests, for people to get a permit, concealed or otherwise.

And, I think that should be renewed periodically, and retested.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

jafs. A couple of years ago beatrice made a similiar comment about "reasonable requirements". The problem is that what you think is reasonable, what beatrice thinks is reasonable and what everyone else think is reasonable will never be the same. This leads to someone always wanting to go that next step until guns are no longer owned legally, which is the goal in the first place. I personally think we as gun owners have been more than reasonable.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

Really?

There are some who believe there should be no requirements at all, such as the ones I listed, for gun ownership - do you agree with that?

Where do you get the idea that it is the "goal" to eliminate guns entirely?

There are extremists on both sides of this one, of course, but most people probably fall in the middle, as I do.

What do you think of my suggestions?

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

I think there are already enough legal requirements.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

So you don't believe that anybody should have to be trained in the safe operation of a firearm, and demonstrate the capacity to use it accurately, in order to get a permit?

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

The states of Vermont and Alaska have no concealed carry permit system. If you can legally own a firearm in those states, you can legally carry it concealed. That seems to be working out pretty well for them.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

That is part of the 8 hour class. Now go ahead and give me the numbers showing how it has failed. Be sure to make it in percentages as compared to general population.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

Those were my suggestions, and when I asked you, you seemed to disagree with them.

Do you agree with my suggestions or not?

Or do you object to the re-testing idea?

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

We've traveled this road already - why go over it again?

I'm glad your father taught you about gun safety, but many people didn't have that experience.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

These "attackers" are the aggressors, CCW is about self defense. Major, major difference there. Google it if you don't understand. "Sound Off" is taking some similiar questions.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Thuja. No I don't think that every life threatening situation a gun is involved. And that is not a prerequisite for me to be able to defend myself with one either. I also don't think that every situation would result in me firing a weapon or even drawing one.

We are talking about reasons to carry a concealed firearm. What kind of examples would you like me to provide?

You still haven't answered my question. How do you plan to protect yourself in the event of a violent attack?

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

"but all I see is you imagining all kinds of situations where you could use your guns."

I would say most CCW holders try to stay aware of their surroundings so that options are available other than firing their weapon. Of course not everyone consumes "shrooms"

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

Once again, I must be missing something, but why do the guns need to be concealed? Is it legal to carry them unconcealed?

Yes, yes, I realize someone carrying illegally is probably not going to carry unconcealed.

I'll go back to what I said above---the more guns that are out there, the easier it is for someone to get one illegally. It has now become a vicious cycle. More people arm themselves for protection, which puts more guns in circulation, which means more guns to be gotten illegally or by unqualified people. I suspect we've all been had by the gun manufacturers---they have to sell more guns---good for their bottom line and the economy of course.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Look at Britain, they nearly completely limit the availability of firearms for people, yet the criminals are still finding ways to get them. Disarming the responsible citizens won't remove guns from existence, it will just force criminal networks to find new ways to get guns.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

IIRC, open carry used to be legal in Kansas unless a local government banned it. There was a confusing crazy-quilt of laws. Don't recall off the top of my head how the concealed carry laws changed that. One major advantage of carrying concealed is that you don't induce the vapors in nervous people who are terrified in the presence of firearms.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

To my knowledge, open carry is still perfectly legal in Kansas. It requires no permit, but an awareness of local municipalities' laws. Lawrence has a few laws about not stopping unnecessarily within 200 feet of a bar, but I have opened carried in Lawrence before.

I can understand why people do it, and I'm all for supporting the 2nd Amendment, but I choose to conceal for various reasons.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

The state has given control on how open carry is regulated to the individual municipalities. So what ended up happening is the larger urban areas wanted to ban it altogether or severely restrict it. This was resulting in many people getting arrested for open carry infractions in one town but not another. Concealed carry was passed partly to circumvent this patchwork of laws and local regulations by giving CCW permit holders exemptions over local regulations.

I would be fine with open carry but I do think it would create a lot of unnecessary tension and problems by people who oppose it. Carrying concealed seems to be a good compromise by allowing those that want to carry legally, and responsibly, without creating a "scene".

I don't agree that CC will put more guns in circulation. I think the guns are already there. If you want to try and limit the availability of guns getting into illegal or unqualified hands, that is a different argument because those the CC have to jump through the hoops to prove they are legal and qualified. That level of quality can be debated, and I'm sure some will jump on this statement shortly.

I personally don't have a problem with training, registration of firearms, traceable sales, etc... But the problem that exists there is simply that neither side (anti or pro) trust each other. Each assumes that this bill or that bill is a secret attempt to take total control one way or the other. And a lot of that misgiving is based on history. So how do we build trust again?

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

"So how do we build trust again?"

That is the question. I have no answer.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

I think the moderates on both sides need to be calm, and clearly state their position, as you did, without making this into a one side vs. the other side argument.

And, I would apply this idea to many of our current political issues, which have been greatly polarized for some reason.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

This leads to another question: Would those of you who support concealed carry be willing to give up carrying guns if you felt you didn't need them? I would never feel safer carrying a gun, in fact I would feel much less so for any number of reasons.

I suspect that the biggest problem here, and maybe one that is unsolvable, is that some people feel they are better protected and safe when they have a gun and some of us feel we are safer not carrying one.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

For me, carrying is about feeling better prepared. I feel that carrying is safe though, and I think fears about negligent discharges are unfounded.

I carry because I feel there is a reason to, if that changes, I will stop carrying. I don't think everyone should carry, I don't think you'll find many people who actually think that.

If it's not too personal, may I ask what has caused your fear/hatred of firearms?

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

Dillon, there are a number of reasons I don't like firearms, especially hand guns.

First, and probably most important, is the way I was raised. Some in the community had guns to kill animals, some for hunting but also because sometimes we had to put animals out of their misery. But the idea of using a gun to kill a person was unthinkable in any circumstances. Stories too long to tell here, but I personally know of several times when a dangerous situation was defused when there was a gun/guns on one side and non-violence on the other. One, told to me by the people involved, was a confrontation with armed Russian guards between East and West Germany when bringing out a trainload of refugees. Advice had been given to carry guns, but the decision was made not to. I think it is very likely that decision saved a lot of lives---and kept the refugees from being sent back to the Soviet Union. Quite likely the guards thought they were insane, but sometimes that works.

I was taught to use a rifle by an older brother---who was always trying to teach me things like trigonometry and Greek---and I was actually a pretty good shot, even with a rifle that was so large and heavy and I couldn't hold it steady and had to pull the trigger in the split second the target was in the sight as the gun moved. So I understand the feeling you get when you shoot a gun and hit a target and why some people are fascinated with guns. Maybe that scares me a little.

I did shoot a couple of animals---after the second one I put the gun down in disgust and that was pretty much it.

Then there was the friend who decided to chase down a person who had just robbed a gas station. He did survive---with brain damage. I'll never forget the first time I saw him in the hospital. And then there was the brother of a friend who got shot at a party---some kind of drunken altercation---and ended up in a wheelchair. He didn't get up and walk in a few weeks like they do on TV.

Being on a jury at a murder trial and having to listen to the people testify, look at the photos and hear that the defendant, as he blasted away at his son's stepfather, was shooting towards the house where his son and a number of other people were, was quite a bit more traumatic than I would have imagined. If someone else had had a gun, they might have killed the shooter, but since the first shot killed the intended victim, it wouldn't have done any good.

Kind of long, but there you have it.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Well I'm sorry your experiences with firearms have been so negative. I know no amount of typing will change your mind, but I can assure you that the concealed carry community differs greatly from the experiences you've described.

If you ever feel like going out shooting in a safe and relaxing environment, send me a message. I only shoot paper, oranges, and onions. :-)

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

I should add, I don't feel safer when other people are carrying guns, even if they are trained and responsible people.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

I feel safer that you don't carry a gun, verity.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

That's certainly a load off my mind, Snap.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

If I didn't feel I would ever have the need for one I would be happy to leave it at home. It is heavy, makes the pants fit tight, and gets in the way when I sit down. I would still own it because I enjoy the sports of shooting and hunting. If you don't feel comfortable carrying one I would never suggest or force you to do so.

Do I feel safer? Hmmm. I feel pretty safe most all of the time anyway, regardless of whether or not I am carrying at the time. Carrying a firearm does make me feel.....no.... I think it actually does make me better equipped to protect myself in the unlikely event I find myself in one of those situations where I feel justified in using a handgun.

I am not oblivious to your concerns. In fact I take them into consideration when I carry. If, for example, I am in a crowded theater or restaurant, I normally do not have a round in the chamber. I know that there is positively no threat to anyone else with the possibility of an accidental discharge. I also know that is probably the last place I would want to fire a handgun. There is just to great a possibility of a stray bullet hitting someone. The police use that same philosophy. Now if I am in a parking lot or out for a stroll in the evening at the local park, I will have a round in the chamber because that is the situation where being able to act quickly may make all the difference. And in all likelihood I will be alone and I will be the intended target without question.

You are right that this probably isn't "resolvable" due to different positions and feelings on the matter. I do think just the fact the people have the ability to carry is a deterrent for crime because more criminals realize that there may be immediate and deadly consequences if they attack an everyday citizen now. I think criminals now have the mindset that there are very little consequences for their actions which makes them so bold anymore.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

Thank you for answering my questions.

The death penalty, according to quite a few studies, doesn't seem to be a deterrent to murder. I think that when people commit crimes, they're not usually thinking about the consequences---or if they are, they think they won't get caught. Until concealed carry is proven to be a deterrent, it's just a feeling because it seems like it should be true. You feel that concealed carry is a deterrent and I feel that it probably isn't.

I do understand that carrying a gun makes you feel more prepared---it's just not a feeling that I can identify with. What happens if you think I'm threatening you---it's dark and I'm walking towards you and reaching for my cell phone (which I usually carry in my pocket) and you think I'm reaching for a gun? Would you shoot first and ask questions later if you thought I was going to shoot you?

My father had a police officer throw him up against his car because, when he was pulled over, he got out of the car and reached for his billfold. Mistakes happen.

  1. No matter how responsible you and others are, mistakes do happen and when a gun is involved, someone can easily and mistakenly end up dead.

  2. Not everyone is responsible.

I realize I won't change your mind, but I hope you will try to understand that there are valid reasons for me to feel the way I do---that the more guns that are out there, the more danger I am in.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Verity. All valid reasons for your personal position and I respect it. In reading your response to Dillon, I can see why you feel the way you do. You have seen and experience some things that I have not. I could possibly come to similar conclusions had I experienced them too. But I also have some experiences and close accounts by friends and family that steer me in the opposite direction.

I hope to never make a mistake such as the one you describe. There is training in situational awareness that is very helpful in observing your surroundings that hopefully will help to prevent the scenario you speak of. No I would not shoot first. But in your scenario we would have some verbal exchange before you got too close to me.

I'm sorry your father had a bad experience. I have heard of similar. Usually it is a conditioned response by a LEO based on previous experience. Or just erring on the side of caution.

I can't deny accidents and mistakes can happen. I hope and pray they are far and few between. And everyone is capable of making a mistake. You hear of police shooting innocent people from time to time. No one likes it. No one wants it to happen. But you can only do so much to prevent accidents. Handguns are extremely safe these days. Accidental discharges are very rare. But if you put your finger on the trigger and pull it will go bang. Education goes a long way. If someone wants to carry a firearm capable of lethal damage they need to understand the safest way to handle it. I'm going to venture to say that most people who go to the trouble to get a CCW permit do in fact practice. They may also be involved in IDPA or other shooting events to hone their "mechanical skills". Purely on surface values, there is considerable time and expense involved with gun ownership with regard to CC. The last thing these people want, myself included, is to loose their gun, and/or right to own a gun. I think that tempers any "Rambo" tendencies out there.

No, not everyone is responsible. In fact there are a lot of irresponsible people out there. Many should not own guns, drive cars, have children, and on and on. If you/we can figure out how to weed those people out I'm all for it.

You won't change my mind any more that I will change yours. But I do hope that I can avail some of your fears about people who choose to conceal carry for self defense. As evident on this board, mostly what you hear are the radical right and left on this issue. Most issues it seems. And that is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But I sincerely believe that most people who wish to carry a firearm will act in a safe, responsible, intelligent manner.

I would agree with you so far as the more guns that are out there, in the wrong hands, the more danger you are in. I also think that the more guns out there in responsible adult hands the safer you are.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Most of the arguments that CC lowers crime is based off research done by John Lott and published in his book, "More Guns, Less Crime." His basic assertion is that concealed carry causes a shift from violent crimes to more property crimes. There have of course been those who disagree with his assertion.

There honestly isn't a ton of good research on the subject, and most research often is funded by a biased group.

However, even most of the anti-gun research shows at worst concealed carry causes no change in crime.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

I can't give you any statistical data to support my statement because there isn't any that is worth anything. I can point you to some websites that have testimonial reports by people who claim they were able to deter a crime without actually firing a firearm. But those would appear bias so you have to take them for what they are worth.

What is you point about crimes are primarily out of desperation? Or are you saying those will happen regardless of whether or not the criminal thinks you have or don't have a firearm on you. Again I can't support with statistics because that data is not tracked well enough to be valid.

How do you think the government should be going after guns? Do you think all hand guns should be outlawed? Many people do.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

OK, so we will disagree on your first point. I read the example you cited and in that instance I would agree with you if you think the store owner acted improperly. No where do they say the store owner thought his life was being threatened. Now in another article I came across while looking for this one there was a different clerk that shot an armed robber. Even in that one I would have to say they acted wrongly because they waited until the robber was leaving before shooting. If he was leaving the threat was going away. But the robber did have a gun and we may not be getting all the facts so I will reserve any final judgement. It's to easy to armchair quarterback.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

I think the argument is that much crime doesn't involve a careful consideration of the pros, cons and risks involved on the part of the criminal.

It's instead rather visceral, and driven by forces like desperation - drug addicts need a fix, for example.

So, if criminals aren't making a careful determination, then things like cc or the death penalty won't affect their decision.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

"I see no legitimate reason to own a handgun other than to shoot someone."

Perses, I have owned or had access to handguns for over 40 of my 64 years. I have hunted with them, target shot with them and used them to defend myself (no shots fired in both instances). In all I would estimate over 15,000 rounds fired with no human blood spilled. Either I am a very poor shot or I have found things other than "shoot someone" to do with handguns.

Lawrence Morgan 2 years, 9 months ago

I would like to know - and I would like for the Journal-World to find this out - how often a person with a concealed weapon fires it and why. It is clear to me that ANYONE who has a concealed weapon with a permit, who misuses it just once, should have the death penalty. It's that simple.

There is no reason to disagree with that. And that includes the above example of the person who reaches for the cell phone. If the other person has a gun and uses it, then he should go to court and have the death sentence.

Would you defend any person who has a concealed weapon and a permit, and who uses it wrongly, should not receive the death sentence?

And, moreover each person who comments on this and other matters of this importance, should have their name used. No exceptions!

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

It is recommended, depending on the source, that to remain proficient with firearm one must practice weekly, or monthly at the very least. Just as most police officers may never use their weapon against another human being, CCW holders may never draw their weapon in their defense their entire lifetime. Studies have shown those who go through background checks to carry concealed are usually much lower risks for committing violent crimes and one study even places them as less likely to commit violent crimes than the general law enforcement population.

No exceptions? Witch trials are so 1692

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow. Where did that come from? And I was enjoying having some intelligent conversation about this too.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

Extremists always seem to want a greater punishment for those they don't agree with. I am confident any CCW holder who breaks the law would be dealt with in the same way as anyone else committing the same crimes. Whoops, sorry. * ANYONE *. Gotta make sure we're talking about the same thing . . .

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Well Lawrence,

If this website requires my personal information in order to establish an account that is one thing. To publish that information openly is another. I for one, want to control who sees my personal information. There are a lot of crazy zealots out there, of which you may be one of, that I would prefer not to divulge that information to. Judging by your last post you might even feel that anyone who supports concealed carry should immediately put to death. And for all I know you may think you have some divine authority to carry out that sentence.

I am more than happy to discuss this issue rationally and maturely. I have no desire to engage in a shouting match with anyone here.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

I like how LJWorld buries a subject such as this to where it no longer shows up anywhere. I guess they want to control what is and isn't news and this evidently isn't anymore even though it has over 180 comments posted. More that just about any other topic. But maybe the conversation isn't going the way they want. Oh well. No matter.

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

I've also often wondered why some articles with a lot of posts disappear and others with few may stay up for days. I doubt that it is done with malicious intent---but LJW could you give us an idea of why you choose what you put up or take down?

verity 2 years, 9 months ago

I do not support the death penalty for any reason. And, yes, I have done much research on the matter. Although many people seem to believe viscerally that it is a deterrent, numerous studies have shown that it's not.

The only reason for it is revenge. Some people think that is a good reason. I don't.

Yes, I know that there are some awful people who perhaps deserve to die. I just don't think we should be making that decision or that the state should be executing it's own citizens.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

I think there are some people that will not be rehabilitated ever. What to do with them I don't know. Is the death penalty an "easy" way out for society? Sometimes. I do think it is a deterrent for some that are already in prison. I have spoken with guards and wardens of different facilities and they say that the threat of the death penalty is the only thing that tempers some prisoners actions. Someone with life without parole has very little to be afraid of.

I do think LJW makes a very deliberate move to control what topics get "air time". Look at this one. Only up since the 12th and over 180 posts. What bothers me is at first it is just people that want to spout off. Then it settles down and some really productive dialog starts. So they pull it off the radar so people don't/can't follow along or new folks miss out on the discussion. And that's not just because it's a liberal site. Conservative's do the same. Seems no one really wants the sides to communicate. Politics! sheesh

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

Hello Hedge. From what I understand, as long as posts are added fairly often the article will stay on the most discussed list. Visits to the article without posting also keep it there. If it goes a few hours without being viewed or posted to other articles/blogs that are busier move up. This one was third from the top when I just now came back to it.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Theoretically, that is how it's suppose to work. But I don't know how many times I've clicked the "popular" tab only to see poll questions and sound-offs from months ago that no one new has commented on.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

I've been getting that a lot recently. Usually if I hit the refresh button it brings it back current.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Hm, maybe. I just tried that, it had some recent stories at the top, but this article was not anywhere in the list. The last story on the list didn't have any new comments on it since March 11th.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

It wasn't even on the big map, period this morning. Can't believe these few posts we just added drove it back up to third. I think maybe some one is watching us now. Put it back up since we are all noticing the same thing. Verrrrry interesting.

RoeDapple 2 years, 9 months ago

Nah . . . 8-)

I'm old enough to have left the conspiracy theories behind me (most of them anyway)

Just a computer glitch, that's all.

Hedge 2 years, 9 months ago

Oh come on now! I bet it's Obama's way to get my guns! Gonna abolish the 2nd amendment! Take the guns from the gun 1%r's and distribute them to everyone else. Then when everyone shoots each other we will find out that Obamacare doesn't cover it!!

Sorry:) Just trying to move this thread back to the number 1 spot!

overcomer 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow what a debate. Like many i am a good "range" Shooter. I unlike most in the debate have had to make the decision. To draw or not draw 7 times since Augusta 18 1979. 1 to 6 ratio the only time was in my home. Believe me it is nerve racking. My question has always been 'would I do it again And is it worth a human life.'
I have not waited for the gov to tell me I could protect my family. That is my responsibilityas their proctor. I will continue to protect the wisest way possible. But that decision is made long before the crises. My situation might be different but the law enforcement. to Is an average of 9min to my home. And my busines is a cash heavy entity. I belive if you ever had to live it your perspective e would be different

overcomer 2 years, 9 months ago

No. Been a longtime ks Res just got tired of a of statements that have not really thought through.

overcomer 2 years, 9 months ago

Besides what do you want me to do post the police reports. Sorry if you doubt

overcomer 2 years, 9 months ago

And besides who are you. Its a free country I have just as much right to be here as you. Last time I checked It is still a free country. Some of us believe we should be able to discuss as adults not as servant to a self appointed egotistical moderator who thinks to much of himself

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