Archive for Sunday, October 30, 2011

Former colleague of abortion doctor Tiller blames state for his death

October 30, 2011

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When Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed in 2009, and the murderer was still on the loose, someone close to Tiller told Dr. Ann Kristin Neuhaus she needed to leave her house as a precaution.

That’s how life has been for Neuhaus, a longtime associate of Tiller’s.

In an interview with the Lawrence Journal-World, Neuhaus said she sometimes wore a bulletproof vest. When traveling to work at Tiller’s Women’s Health Care Services clinic, Neuhaus would park her car somewhere else in Wichita, and a Tiller employee would pick her up so that anti-abortion activists, who held a daily vigil outside the clinic, wouldn’t copy down Neuhaus’ license tag.

That was the routine.

Associating with Tiller, a frequent target of anti-abortion violence, carried risks. But Neuhaus said she has no regrets about working with him.

“He was a highly complex person,” Neuhaus said. “He was one of the most profound people I could ever talk to. That was probably the reason I stuck with him through all the ordeals.”

Former abortion laws

For about eight years, starting in 1999, Neuhaus provided second opinions for patients at Tiller’s clinic for late-term abortions. Such referrals were required under Kansas law.

A complaint pending before the State Board of Healing Arts accuses Neuhaus of negligence in conducting mental health exams of 11 patients, ages 10 to 18, who terminated their pregnancies from July to November 2003. Neuhaus denies the allegations.

State law at that time restricted abortions starting at the 22nd week pregnancy if the fetus was viable. A patient had to face death or “substantial and irreversible” harm to “a major bodily function,” which could include mental health. Neuhaus concluded the patients suffered acute anxiety, acute stress or single episodes of major depression.

Neuhaus said she has counseled many young girls who were raped and many young girls who simply didn’t make the connection between sex and pregnancy. And then there were women with abnormal pregnancies that she tried to help.

The feelings that surfaced among these girls and women were similar to post-traumatic stress disorder, she said.

“Women are coming from all over the country with immensely complex stories. You are trying to do the best you can to deliver the medical help we are sworn to do,” she said.

Disappointed in Kansas

Neuhaus, who operated an abortion clinic in Lawrence from 1997 to 2002, said she has probably performed 10,000 abortions.

“The idea that I would be questioned by someone who has never dealt with abortion is a laughable irony,” she said.

While she is critical of anti-abortion advocates who have pursued cases against her, Neuhaus said it is the state of Kansas she is most disappointed in.

“To me, the state of Kansas was highly complicit in the murder of Tiller,” she said.

Tiller was one of a few U.S. physicians performing late-term procedures when Scott Roeder, an anti-abortion activist, went to Tiller’s church and killed him.

Two months earlier, Tiller had been acquitted of misdemeanor criminal charges, in which he was charged with failing to get an independent second medical opinion, in relying on Neuhaus for referrals, for late-term abortions.

The case against Tiller spanned the administrations of three attorneys general, starting with an investigation by anti-abortion Attorney General Phill Kline. That case was dismissed on jurisdictional grounds. Earlier this month, a Kansas disciplinary panel said Kline should be indefinitely suspended from practicing law in the state because of the dishonest way he investigated abortion clinics. Kline has said the finding is politically motivated.

Then in 2007, Attorney General Paul Morrison, who defeated Kline in the election, filed the misdemeanor charges against Tiller. The trial occurred during Attorney General Steve Six’s tenure.

“The people entrusted to make rational decisions” failed, she said, referring to the attorneys general.

After Tiller’s acquittal, Roeder gunned him down. Roeder is serving a life sentence in prison.

Dealing with anti-abortion forces

Neuhaus said that when anti-abortion activists didn’t get the court results they wanted “they go rogue.”

According to news reports, Roeder attended those court hearings in the case against Tiller, and kept up with Tiller developments through the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue. Cheryl Sullenger, senior policy adviser for Operation Rescue, said Roeder would initiate contact with her. But Operation Rescue has said Roeder had no affiliation with the group.

Sullenger served about two years in prison after pleading guilty to conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic in California in 1988. She has since renounced violence.

Reports have indicated the allegation against Neuhaus before the Board of Healing Arts stems from a complaint filed by Sullenger.

Neuhaus conceded that anti-abortion forces have been successful in getting more restrictive abortion laws passed in Kansas and across the country.

“We have a whole generation of women who are clueless about what it was like in pre-Roe days,” she said, referring to the U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion.

And even though she admired Tiller, Neuhaus said that if she had it to do over again, she probably wouldn’t have taken the health care route that she did.

“It’s not fair to your family,” she said.

Comments

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

Life is a sexually transmitted terminal illness. No survivors. Do you know anyone who's made it out alive? Final thought: mind your own business. The world will be a better place for it.

The Pot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTBpBZ281c8

Sean Livingstone 3 years, 10 months ago

Fetus is not equal to baby...... just like adults are not equal to teenagers.... it's just another way of making people feel guilty.... and then we'll be going into debate on whether fetus should share the same right as human beings.... 10,000 unborn fetus (aborted before 2nd trimester) may be better off dead (again not for me to judge). I'm a strict Catholic, and I don't impose my ideals on others.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

you are not a "strict catholic" if you reject the teaching of the Church on the issue of abortion.

Sean Livingstone 3 years, 10 months ago

There's a difference between imposing your ideas onto others.... it's your relationship with God. The bible never differentiates fetus from baby since no one really knew anything of such back then. I never used condoms... I never asked my wife to abort.... I waited till marriage to have sex.... but that's my strict upbringing... and that's not for everyone. I'm a strict catholic.... most importantly, I don't judge.

Sean Livingstone 3 years, 10 months ago

It's like saying... I'm a strict parent.... but I'm only strict to my own kid... I will never be strict to other people's kids. I'm a strict Catholic to my whole family.... but I'm not imposing my strict religious beliefs on others.

Arana 3 years, 10 months ago

I am not a liberal(I don't know what my political stance has to do with anything here. I find the liberal vs conservative thing childish. Yeah your a bunch of children the lot of you.) I could not disagree with you more. For one moment have you even considered the life of the unborn child? You are so set on punishing the mother that you don't care what happens to the baby. The baby should be born after that it is not your problem. I think that is wrong. A child is not a form of punishment, which is why I stand by abortion. My body my rules.

chocolateplease 3 years, 10 months ago

You blame only the girls and women; please don't neglect to mention the men who are also responsible for these pregnancies. And if the girl or woman is raped, thn it is not her "carelessness" that got her pregnant at all. I am surprised that anyone would want to force a pregnancy, childbirth, or motherhood upon a ten year old GIRL.

Bob_Keeshan 3 years, 10 months ago

Ah, the classic conservative argument of a baby as punishment. That'll learn 'em.

somebodynew 3 years, 10 months ago

Yeah,newmommie - - can we just send the bill to you for raising the unwanted baby and the councelling sessions for those rape surviviors??? Or maybe you think it should just be illegal for young women, not the adult women who make this choice (legal as it is) for various and difficult reasons.

And what do you propose for the "fathers", actually baby-daddies, who were "so careless" to have gotten a woman pregnant?? I guess that is OK in your book. It is all the woman's fault that she was so careless to get pregnant.

Call me a liberal if you want, on this one I will wear that badge proudly.

Amy Heeter 3 years, 10 months ago

Bleeding hearts for Tiller on a Sunday morning. Boo woo, run along to church now

chootspa 3 years, 10 months ago

That's where Tiller was when a terrorist murdered him.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

A pro-life christian terrorist at that.

beatrice 3 years, 10 months ago

A pro-life "christian" terrorist with easy access to a firearm at that.

I'll take my 10 bonus points now, thank you very much.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

A mentally ill pro-life christian terrorist with easy access to a firearm shot a fellow christian in the face while standing in church.

Misery to Ruin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs5Cej...

brujablanco 3 years, 10 months ago

Artichokeheart should be carefully monitored for condoning murder. Before deleting this post, please view artichokeheart's posts on this subject.

mloburgio 3 years, 10 months ago

Unintended Pregnancies Cost Taxpayers $11 Billion A Year A new study by the Guttmacher Institute, a leading reproductive health research and advocacy group, estimates that unintended pregnancies cost U.S. taxpayers an estimated $11.1 billion dollars a year. Nearly two-thirds of unintended pregnancies -- roughly a million births -- are publicly funded by Medicaid and other government programs, the report shows.

At the same time, the demand for abortions among low-income women has been on the rise since the recession. The abortion rate increased 18 percent among poor women between 2000 and 2008, according to another recent Guttmacher report, as a result of their inability to afford or access contraceptive services and their perceived inability to support a child. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/24/unintended-pregnancies-cost-taxpayers_n_866386.html

You have to love christian republicans, they hate in the name of god!

Bunny_Hotcakes 3 years, 10 months ago

I'm not sure how much more explicit she can get than this:

"'To me, the state of Kansas was highly complicit in the murder of Tiller,' she said."

She doesn't use the word "blame," but to say the state was complicit? Well, I'd say that's close enough to blame.

thebigspoon 3 years, 10 months ago

In the same way that a getaway driver is "complicit" int he robbery his friend committed, or the murder that his "home boy" committed. Don't argue semantics when you know damned well what is being said.

Travis Oliver 3 years, 10 months ago

she seems proud she killed 10,0000 babies. i bet she is also against the death penalty for a convicted murderer.

jaywalker 3 years, 10 months ago

She seems proud? How did you come to that conclusion?

pace 3 years, 10 months ago

She should be proud. She stood up for women, while the state creates goofy law to block their medical rights. The state has no business making goofy law to abridge a woman's medical rights. The fevered extremists that applaud murder of a doctor who performs abortions should be ashamed.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

She certainly did not stand up for women! What about the unborn women she killed among those 10,000 little ones she butchered up? Wake up these money grubbers don't care a wit about women or children!

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

LOL! Thanks for the laugh! It's good for you, ya know.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

And you don't know what a baby is....NEXT!

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

Me, personally... I miss the anti-abortion rallies here in town.

It was fun to get the guys there to the very edge of violence, then turn my back on them and walk away laughing. Got hit a couple of times. Amazing how quickly they changed their mind when the heel of my boot came into contact, very abruptly, with the top edge of their kneecap.

As to abortion itself, not exactly my favorite form of birth control, but I'm not an arrogant [BEEP] and can sit back and dictate what someone else may or may not do with their body.

What I think will be funny will be abortion being outlawed and the biggest faces associated with the movement are caught having an abortion and are sent to jail for it. Either that, or they succeed, but since there are no sterile requirements, they get something truly nasty, preferably something that either requires a VERY expensive set of medicines for a VERY long time, or they just go sterile.

Stupidity should never breed. Intelligence gets watered down over the years. Stupidity only intensifies.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 10 months ago

By the way, just to let you know the planet will reach a population of 7 billion soon (if it hasn't already). One of these days the earth is going to shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

djeyler 3 years, 10 months ago

Evil meets Evil, and Evil runs with Evil. When you kill 10,000 people your mind begins to run from your past. Imagine trying to make up all the reasons used to justify killing 10,000 children. I often wondered what these doctors tell the mothers of these children to get them to use justifiable homicide on their own children. Now we know. We also know that this doctor blames her guilt on everybody to save her own sanity. What else can she do? When people look into her eyes they see the lady who has personally killed 10,000 infants. Not somebody most are willing to get real chummy with. Not somebody we want to discuss job duties with. Because of your justification to kill babies, others with the same evil in their hearts us their justification to kill as well. Your running from yourself doctor. Dr. Tiller had time to look into the eyes of the man who killed him, and he saw himself.

hujiko 3 years, 10 months ago

Glorifying someone's murder because you disagree with them. How American/Christian/Pro-life of you.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

you won't always be laughing when you face God.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

Ya think? Well, I don't believe there is a 'gawd.' Now what? You gonna come shoot me in my face because I don't believe like you do? You have your beliefs and I have mine. I can't put it any more simple than that. Get a life, mind your own business and keep your 'gawd' to yourself. You push your beliefs on me and I will fight back without abandon. You think Scott Roeder was crazy? You ain't seen nothing yet, bible thumper.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

no one is talking about forcing beliefs on anyone just presenting the idea that God exists and he holds us accountable for our actions is certainly fair in the market place of ideas.

jafs 3 years, 10 months ago

"you won't always be laughing when you face God"

That's a bit more than presenting an idea.

You're trying to scare him based on some fear of punishment after death.

You assume that your beliefs are correct, and that you know that God exists, has the nature you believe, and will be judging people according to your beliefs.

And, you seem to relish the idea.

hujiko 3 years, 10 months ago

10,000 people, 10,000 children, 10,000 infants.

Choose your nomenclature and stick with it. BTW, the termination of an embryo (something that would not stand a chance by itself) isn't exactly murder, it's more like getting those tire-boogers out of the wheel well after a good snowstorm.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

"Dr. Tiller had time to look into the eyes of the man who killed him, and he saw himself."

Well, of course he did. Eyes are reflective surfaces.

Oh, and of those 10,000 fetus that may or may not have continued to develop, how many were you going to volunteer to adopt?

I'll bet the number is a lot closer to 0 than it is to 1.

pace 3 years, 10 months ago

I think we are discussing abortion, not killing children. Your religion is not medical definition nor is it law. I am pretty sure you would like to abolish law and rule the world with your religious views. If you think abortion is wrong. Don't have one. If you think you should rule others go to counseling.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

That is not how it works my friend, we advocate for our positions on issues, we support them with the science that shows that when a sperm and an egg come together there is now a new human organism growing up within the woman! It will become a child and it is how each one of us began our existence on this earth. As a Christian I believe that God created each one of us as his special creation and that he has a special plan for each of us through the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ.

Kyle Chandler 3 years, 10 months ago

Kansas was founded by socialists, democratic socialists and progressives. Get a clue.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

Kansas was also founded by proud Christian aborlitionists who support human rights and opposed slavery and violation of human rights. Abortion is the brutal violation of the human rights of the unborn child!

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 10 months ago

Anti-abortionists violate the human rights of all women. At the time Kansas was founded abortion wasn't even illegal. Since the state's founders did nothing to oppose it, they must have thought it was an issue best left to women.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Kansas had a statute prohibiting abortion for most of it's history...

WilburNether 3 years, 10 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

JayhawkFan1985 3 years, 10 months ago

It seems to me that Roeder and Sullinger are terrorists and that Operation Rescue is a terrorist organization. I don't understand why Homeland Security isn't dealing with them as such. If they don't agree with the rule of law, they take actions like murder and bombings. This isn't a left or right issue. It's an American issue. These folks are un-American.

jaywalker 3 years, 10 months ago

I'd be willing to bet Homeland Security is on 'em.

Frank Smith 3 years, 10 months ago

Five years ago I asked Operation Rescue West, whose crew was busily assembling Phill Kline signs from their "Truth Truck," why they had lost their tax status the previous week.

I was immediately physically attacked by the crew leader/driver, then he and the head of the Wichita Pachyderm club asked police to arrest me because I had supposedly attacked him with my "fists, feet and teeth."

Fortunately, another spectator got the whole incident on video. I had a book in one hand the entire time. I had just gotten a spinal epidural and couldn't have raised my feet had I wanted to, as I'm severely disabled. I lifted one hand in front of my face to stop my assailant's charge. In a well choreographed move, he lowered his neck to my hand and screamed "He's strangling me." (Quite a feat, for one who is being "strangled.")

The DA threw out the charges. Unfortunately, she didn't prosecute the two for lying to campus police officers.

A review of court records showed that the that odious bunch of grifters traveled around the country alledging police brutality on campuses, filing nuisance suits and failing to give any accounting for those tax free, taxpayer funded settlements.

Attempted bombers Scott Roeder and Cheryl Sullenger were hardly the only murderers, arsonists or other terrorists with whom O.R. conspired. (Sullenger provided Roeder with Tiller's schedule, obtained through years of stalking him, so that Scott was able to kill him as he served as an usher in his church. When he was apprehended fleeing the scene of his crimes, he had Sullenger's unlisted cell phone # on his dashboard.)

Shelly Shannon, an arsonist, had previously shot Tiller in both arms. Paul Hill sat through Shannon's trial with ORW and then returned to Florida to murder a doctor and an elderly, unarmed, retired Lt. Colonel, and wounded the Colonel's wife.

Phill Kline, notoriously deficient on ethics and involved in fraudulent campaigns for over two decades, clearly contributed to the violent atmosphere that culminated in Tiller's assassination.

Tell me about their alleged "morality."

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

I guess Mr. Tiller and his acts of violence didn't contribute to the atmosphere of violence at all?????

jafs 3 years, 10 months ago

Interesting failure to comment on the substance of his comments.

Frank Smith 3 years, 10 months ago

Five years ago I asked Operation Rescue West, whose crew was busily assembling Phill Kline signs from their "Truth Truck," why they had lost their tax status the previous week.

I was immediately physically attacked by the crew leader/driver, then he and the head of the Wichita Pachyderm club asked police to arrest me because I had supposedly attacked him with my "fists, feet and teeth."

Fortunately, another spectator got the whole incident on video. I had a book in one hand the entire time. I had just gotten a spinal epidural and couldn't have raised my feet had I wanted to, as I'm severely disabled. I lifted one hand in front of my face to stop my assailant's charge. In a well choreographed move, he lowered his neck to my hand and screamed "He's strangling me." (Quite a feat, for one who is being "strangled.")

The DA threw out the charges. Unfortunately, she didn't prosecute the two for lying to campus police officers.

A review of court records showed that the that odious bunch of grifters traveled around the country alledging police brutality on campuses, filing nuisance suits and failing to give any accounting for those tax free, taxpayer funded settlements.

Attempted bombers Scott Roeder and Cheryl Sullenger were hardly the only murderers, arsonists or other terrorists with whom O.R. conspired. (Sullenger provided Roeder with Tiller's schedule, obtained through years of stalking him, so that Scott was able to kill him as he served as an usher in his church. When he was apprehended fleeing the scene of his crimes, he had Sullenger's unlisted cell phone # on his dashboard.)

Shelly Shannon, an arsonist, had previously shot Tiller in both arms. Paul Hill sat through Shannon's trial with ORW and then returned to Florida not long afterward to murder a doctor and an elderly, unarmed, retired Lt. Colonel, and wounded the Colonel's wife.

Phill Kline, notoriously deficient on ethics and involved in fraudulent campaigns for over two decades, clearly contributed to the violent atmosphere that culminated in Tiller's assassination.

Tell me about their alleged "morality."

Frank Smith 3 years, 10 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

I'm sure if they violate the law the government will deal with them appropriately. If you simply don't agree with there "political position" on the issue of abortion then that is another matter.

pace 3 years, 10 months ago

hyperbole? You are claiming Dr. Tiller wasn't murdered? They do not have the right to murder and threaten doctors, staff and patients, they are murderous terrorists.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

who claims they do have the right to do those things? Lots of responsible pro-life citizens oppose all forms of violence including the brutal dismemberment of the unborn in the womb by doctors like Tiller and this lady.

Frank Smith 3 years, 10 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

For all the Let's Do Away with Abortion people out there, Phelps has long since been known to abhor abortion.

See, you have another famous person to have something in common with, folks. Doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

guilt by association with a wacko will not make dismemberment of little unborn babies any more acceptable!

labmonkey 3 years, 10 months ago

And just think, if Casey Anthony murdered Kylee a couple years earlier, it would have been perfectly legal and no outrage.

love2fish_ks 3 years, 10 months ago

I am pro choice.However, I think it is all sorts of wrong and even criminal to abort when the fetus is viable outside the mothers womb. Part of the blame has to rest with my side of the isle, i.e. pro-choice. But this is so political that an honest conversation can't be had and we defend abortion in the extreme.

There are many caring professionals that help women terminate a pregnancy. They should not be painted with the same brush as the very evil man, Tiller.

kernal 3 years, 10 months ago

I'm pro choice, but I also understand that at times there are circumstances beyond a female's control when she may become impregnated, rape being number one. I would be ashamed to berate a woman who is raped and chooses to have an abortion during the first trimester; that is her right.

Before Roe vs. Wade, women who couldn't get abortions sometimes took their own lives, some left their children on the steps of churches, some gave them up for adoption, some lost their jobs, some were sent by their families to homes such as Florence Crittendon Home for Unwed Mothers, and some had back alley abortions which left them permanently sterile, maimed or dead. I knew one who was raped and took her own life. Another was sent to an unwed mothers home and has not spoken to her parents in forty-five years and the third was maimed and and never could have children again. Those who had the money went to Europe for abortions.

None of us have the right to inflict our moral judgment on these women and tell them they don't have the right to choose.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

Why don't we have the right to make a moral judgement? That is your worldview but it is one that many citizens here in Kansas do not agree with.

jafs 3 years, 10 months ago

You have the right to your opinion.

That doesn't give you the right to dictate that others act according to those opinions.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

well you are dictating abortion on demand with your opinion--you are forcing this violence on those who disagree with your opinion--I guess pro-life Christians will do the same thing if we get a chance to end the killing.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

Nobody is forcing you to have an abortion you frickin' jag-off... If you're ever raped, or found to have a malformed fetus, feel free to move forward as you wish. I certainly won't get involved with your personal decisions. It's called "minding my own business." Let your god handle it. Do you not have faith that Gawd will handle the abortionists and those who would procure the services of an abortion doctor? Do you think you're god? LOL!

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

killing a human child will not make rape go away or be a little better it is just another act of violence. The handicapped should not be targeted as you suggest for being aborted--just because a child has special needs does not make it ok to kill the child in the womb--Christianity stands against this type of violence and against the society of violence.

jafs 3 years, 10 months ago

I don't dictate anything to anybody.

You are free to have or not have an abortion, as you see fit.

I don't mandate that anybody act according to my opinions.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

you mandate that the "killing centers" remain open and that our children are daily dismembered based upon a faulty law and misinterpretation of our Constitution.

jafs 3 years, 10 months ago

I do no such thing - I "mandate" nothing. I'm not in a position to decide these issues.

Abortion is legal, and there is a SC decision supporting it.

I wasn't on the SC that decided that, nor am I in the legislature.

You want to change those laws and that decision, based on your moral judgement.

I maintain that your right to an opinion, based on a religious belief, doesn't give you the right to impose that on others.

Let's take some other religious beliefs - Mormons believe that drinking coffee is bad, many religious groups believe that drinking alcohol is bad, religious folks over time have believed that playing cards is bad, etc.

Do you think those people/groups have the right to make all of those activities illegal?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

If you support Roe V. Wade you put the power of the federal government squarely behind the pro-death and pro-abortion position because it mandates that these killing centers must be allowed to remain open. That is a moral view but is not a view that pro-life citizens agree with or can ever accept! Thus, unless you oppose Roe you are forcing your immoral position on the rest of us.

Janet FitzGerald 3 years, 10 months ago

Dr. Tiller's Killer is a Terrorist, a Hypocrite, and a Coward!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31060234/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/doctor-refused-quit-i-know-they-need-me/#.Tq3L0XI2HbE

Keep your laws out of my body and womb. If you don't have one, please find something else to focus on. I'm tired of your authoritarian rants. Go do something useful. Enough people are living in fear of you, though many will fight your battle. Is that your idea of pro-life?

Amy Heeter 3 years, 10 months ago

I believe the phrase is " keep your laws off my body"

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

However, we are not just talking about "your body" remember the unborn child also has a body.

Katara 3 years, 10 months ago

Why would you ask such a personal question?

Do you feel it okay to ask other people details about other medical procedures? Do you ask people how they feel about their decision to have a colonoscopy or go through chemo?

Why do you think people should share their feelings about their medical decisions?

It is absolutely none of your business. There is a reason that HIPAA exists.

jafs 3 years, 10 months ago

The women that I've known who've had abortions have a variety of feelings about them.

Most seem to think it was a good idea, given the realities of their lives at the time, but also wonder about the children they might have had.

It's a difficult decision for any woman, I think, and few take it lightly.

I imagine there are a variety of reasons for them, including lack of use of birth control, failure of birth control, etc. and a variety of reasons why women aren't in a place to raise children well, including age, financial status, relationship status, etc.

By the way, do you also wonder about the men involved in these situations, and what they've done or not done, their willingness to help the women, raise the children, etc.?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

I wonder about the cowardly men who refuse to step up to the plate and be a father.

bearded_gnome 3 years, 10 months ago

it is wrong to inflict your morals on an innocent baby and kill him or her because of your choice. you then are deciding whether he or she is human and worthy of human rights.

95% or more of abortions are simply birth control abortions. the abortion proponents always love to site: rape; incest; life of the mother. these account for 5% or fewer of american abortions.

birth control abortions are deeply immoral.

"life of the mother" conditions almost never come up anymore. and rape an incest, well why punish the child for the act of the father, punish him or her with the death penalty. that's like punishing the victim for her rapist's crime.

furthermore, increasingly abortions take place in america for gender selection; yes, that means that parents choose to kill their unborn baby daughters simply because they are female.
where's the womyn's rights crowd about this, eh?

Katara 3 years, 10 months ago

"Life of the Mother" conditions never come up?

Have you heard of gestational diabetes? Normally it is controlled once diagnosed with diet, exercise & insulin (The oral medications cause birth defects). Occasionally, it is not controllable at all. So do you think it a good thing for the mother to slip into a diabetic coma because she cannot be treated while pregnant?

What about molar pregnancies? Do you think a woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy even if there is no living fetus? Her body still believes it is pregnant and continues to grow as is if it was. There will be no end result but you would prefer abortions to be outlawed and you would force this women into a pregnancy that cannot never produce a baby.

Gender selection? Got some credible proof that increasingly abortions take place in America for gender selection?

Considering that one cannot determine a fetus' sex until after 20 weeks, it would be awfully difficult for a woman to obtain an abortion without a very good medical reason. In in the few states that would allow abortions into the 2nd trimester, she would have to have another medical opinion that this is medically necessary for her.

I really wish you would not make up things when discussing a topic of such seriousness.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

I think if there is one gender selection abortion in America that is too many! Do you deny that it has taken place?

Liberty275 3 years, 10 months ago

Every abortion is another failure of humanity. However, in America, we should never forget a woman has the right to do with her body as she deems best. Concerning abortion, you have to accept the ugliness because it is legal.

This problem would go away if people minded their own business and left other people alone when they make a lawful decision.

If you hate abortion, fight the law. Allowing your hatred to spill over on people making an almost impossible decision or physicians acting lawfully doesn't help anyone.

If you are pro-abortion, there is no need to even respond to the other side's rhetoric. Fanning the flames of hatred is never a good idea. The people that don't agree with you aren't necessarily stupid or religious extremists, most just disagree. You already have your way, just walk off.

Bob Forer 3 years, 10 months ago

Correction liberty. if you hate abortion, don't have one. How does fighting to make abortions illegal fit into your so-called "libertarian philosophy?"

Liberty275 3 years, 10 months ago

If you don't like a law, try to get it changed. It's really a universal thing.

Bob Forer 3 years, 10 months ago

So its okay for me to try to promulgate laws that restrict your liberty. because it's a "universal thing."

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

Many libertarians oppose abortion because they believe it is a separate human life deserving protection. Look at the position that Ron Paul a medical doctor has taken on this issue!

Katara 3 years, 10 months ago

"The people that don't agree with you aren't necessarily stupid or religious extremists, most just disagree. You already have your way, just walk off."

This is incorrect as most are not just disagreeing but also spread information that is horribly wrong. See bearded-gnome's post.

For example, many are in the same camp that the HPV vaccine will turn their girls into sluts if they get it. This is in despite of the fact that there is nothing to show that girls who receive the vaccine have sex at an earlier age or are more likely to go out and have sex once inoculated.

I don't have an issue with the religious beliefs behind the pro-life position. I don't have a problem if it is just simple squeamishness that motivates them.

I have a problem when they spread misinformation in order to convince people to agree with them.

Liberty275 3 years, 10 months ago

"but also spread information that is horribly wrong"

People are going to spread the words they want you to hear. Accuracy isn't always as catchy as misinformation. I think most people can catch blatant misinformation. The more subtle stuff is a little harder, but there is really nothing that can be done about it unless you can prove some sort of fraud.

"HPV vaccine will turn their girls into sluts if they get it"

OK. So what would you propose? Do you want to put tape on their mouths because they believe something you don't and are willing to say those words? Hopefully parents will have the intelligence to listen to their family doctor, and not just some internet MD on a forum or a goofball with a sign. I know, we aren't that lucky. Some people will believe as they wish at the expense of themselves or others. It's going to happen. Every time will be a tragedy waiting to occur. I know that. Still, The First Amendment doesn't care, it just ensures freedom of speech. Sometimes freedom is ugly and not particularly good for us. That doesn't mean you turn your back on it.

"I have a problem when they spread misinformation in order to convince people to agree with them."

Unless you have grounds and can prove some sort of fraud, I imagine your problem will remain. You'll never make buddha with that cloud hanging over your head.

All that said, if you know a parent that is in endangering their child as you note, you should try to help them find a qualified Dr to advise them. If everyone with your problem tried that, maybe some of your problem would go away.

Katara 3 years, 10 months ago

Many of the misinformation has been debunked.

For example, abortion causes breast cancer. Yet it is still repeated by pro-life groups as a scare tactic to get people to support them.

It is the same thing as claiming that autism is caused by vaccinations. That was debunked too and now the people spreading the misinformation to others are causing harm. Did you catch the recent release about Whooping Cough in Douglas County?

It is wrong.

You don't seem to understand. Their freedom is not compromised at all. Pro-lifers certainly can believe what they believe. They can apply to those beliefs to their own lives.

What they cannot do is force others to comply with those beliefs. They are taking away the freedom of others.

BTW, I could never be a Buddha. My earlobes are just not long enough.

Liberty275 3 years, 10 months ago

"It is wrong. "

Being wrong for free is protected speech. If you charge money it can be fraud. Really, what do you want to do to all the "wrong" people"? Do you want to put them in prison for believing one thing over another?

That would be a little disturbing.

"What they cannot do is force others to comply with those beliefs. They are taking away the freedom of others."

Give me an example of what you are talking about. Who is forcing others to comply with their beliefs? The last I heard, only a judge can do that.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

Many of us will never "accept the ugliness" we will advocate and vote only for candidates who support life and respect life. Abortion is a brutal violation of the human rights of the unborn child.

beatrice 3 years, 10 months ago

I wish we could abort the zombies from the LJWorld site.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

Oh, you mean put people in prison that don't agree with you?

How American of you... snort

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

If this is supposed to be because of something in the Bible, then why are there not massive protests around platic surgeon offices.

We're all made in God's image and by His will, or so I have been told. If you are supposed to have small boobs, then why get surgery? Botox? Liposuction?

Damned hypocrits, every one of you that base your argument on religion.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

If a human life was being taken at the botox clinic or during liposuction you might have a point. These little children were created by God and we as Christians are called to defend their little lives!

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

I forget who said it, but: "For those that believe, not proof is needed. For those that don't believe, no proof is possible."

Me, I'd like proof, definitive proof that can stand independant of the Bible, but it's not really high on my priority list, if you know what I mean.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

"faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

Do you have the same zealousness when it comes to helping them after they are born and given away to the state for one reason or another?

So how many foster kids are you up to now? 0 or 0?

jafs 3 years, 10 months ago

And, once the children are born, then what?

KDWinTexasNow 3 years, 10 months ago

Can someone finish this sentence for me?

"It is okay to kill a baby in its mother's womb when ____."

Liberty275 3 years, 10 months ago

"It's still inside the mother"?

I fought the same war inside that you are. While we can approximate the age when a human can live independently of it's mother, it is in every case a guess. That means we cannot define a moment of viability. In that absence we can only rely on the human inside being a part of the larger mother, and therefore subject to the mother's desire to have or not have the little human inside her (up until the little guy hits nine and busts his way out).

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 10 months ago

A baby is not in its mother's womb--baby is born. Glad I could help.

bearded_gnome 3 years, 10 months ago

never.

same issue: when is it really okay to kill a baby in the womb? when the mommy says so?

Liberty275 3 years, 10 months ago

Wow. You came right out and said something. No if, ands or buts. Good for you!

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

That is your opinion many Americans disagree with you on the issue of abortion.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

Not for them, vertigo. They want the government to make the choices for OTHER people... if it was their choice to do something medical and the government said "No, other people badgered us into passing a law against it," the fury would have no limits, and everyone involved knows it.

Maybe they are just jealous that they are not given the chance to practive making said fetuses, so in return, they wanna make life rougher for those that do. LOL

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

That was not the law in most states prior to Roe. We are simply advocating for a return to reasonable allowance for differing laws and opinions in the various states. This issue should not be federalized by the Supreme Court.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

Just admit that you want a theocracy and get it over with.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

No one wants a theocracy but we do want to protect the unborn from being slaughtered. Protections like were in place in every state prior to Roe and there was not "theocracy" then.

bearded_gnome 3 years, 10 months ago

Then in 2007, Attorney General Paul Morrison, who defeated Kline in the election, filed the misdemeanor charges against Tiller.

---oh yeah! that would be Attorney General Paul "I'm layin' here with Linda on my mind" Morrison.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 10 months ago

Charges which were prosecuted by his successor and of which he was found not guilty. And by the way, when did misdemeanor charges for bad paperwork become capital charges? Because the man was executed anyway.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Mr. Tiller was not "executed" that implies a government sanctioned death following a legitimate process. Mr. Tiller was gunned down by a madman who should have been stopped because he thought that his conduct was above the rule of law. No one can take the law into their own hand and commit such and act of violence and claim that they respect and honor human life! Mr. Tiller was a victim of the violence of cold blooded murder which is ironic because that act of violence was very much like the cold dismemberment of the unborn that Tiller himself performed. True pro-life citizens do not support acts of violence and we also understand that this act hurt the cause of turning people's hearts away from abortion as a method of birth control.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 10 months ago

Can someone finish these sentences for me??

"It is okay to kill a pregnant woman when___" "It is okay to interfere in a man's relationship with his doctor when_" "It is okay to make judgments about medical procedures for which you have no education, background or training when___" "It is okay to force a rape victim to be further traumatized when__" "It is okay to bomb, set fire to and/or maliciously vandalize private property, possibly endangering or killing adult people when___" "It is okay to create TRAP laws that force women to carry unviable fetuses to term when__" "It is okay to create a law that forbids any doctor, even with all of their education, training and expertise, from declaring a fetus unviable, when_"

Hey! I like this game!

Liberty275 3 years, 10 months ago

Is it OK to limit _____ to two instances per post?

Katara 3 years, 10 months ago

These comments are starting to look like Mad Libs.

Sylvie Rueff 3 years, 10 months ago

Two week before Roeder killed Dr. Tiller, Roeder was caught on video vandalizing a clinic in Kansas CIty KS. The incident was reported, the police had his license plate and clear pictures of him in the act. His face was well known at the clinics along with his name. He was not even brought in for questioning. If the authorities had done their job, he would have been in custody the weekend Dr. Tiller died.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

Sad that the Journal World uses it's pages to attempt to make this abortionist into some kind of liberal hero. She killed 10,000 little babies in the womb and as a Christian I believe that one day she will give account to God for those acts of violence against the unborn.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 10 months ago

So why don't you leave God's business to God and stop trying to play one?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

have never played God--simply advocating--for the pro-life position.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Do you actually read and actually grasp what you read, or do you just spew it forth when it suits your needs at the time?

Hey, isn't that what Phelps does??

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

For those that insist on no abortions at all...

Could you look your 16 year old daughter straight in the eye and tell her "Nope, you cannot have an abortion. Period."

Just remember, a few stiff blows to the stomach can induce a miscarriage. A fifth of vodka would do wonders as well. You can't get rid of abortion. You can, however, get rid of the ones performed under medical supervision.

This is, however, a lot funnier than the people that gladly give away their rights. You are giving away someone else's rights under the guise of doing what is best for them, as far as you are concerned. It's all about comfort. Namely what are you comfortable in making someone else give up so you can feel better about yourself.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

Personal responsibility. Really, this is the argument that you are going to go with tonight? Really? Well, at least you're willing to make it easy.

First of all, you must have never been prone to hormones and/or emotions getting the better of you. Most everyone I knew when I was a teenager was. It's all well and good to preach abstinence, but how many kids do you know that willingly practice it. Not because Mom and Dad say it and it's easier than getting your butt kicked or head chewed off, but simply because they have no interest in sex?

I'm sure there are some, but by and large, those few are exceptionally rare. Condoms aren't exactly Goodyear tires. You don't get 50k thrusts then rotate to extend viability. They may not be tissue paper, but they definately aren't body armor.

Accidents happen. Not the whole sex thing. That's a conscious choice, but if they are smart enough to wrap it before delivery, it is NOT the kids' fault if it breaks.

Would you deny medical care to a kid that was in a car wreck because the road was slick, regardless of whether they were goofing off in the car beforehand?

How about if you lose your job because the company that supplies your office with computers sold your company faulty computers and you couldn't finish your job because of it? You'd be so up in arms about it the echo would take a decade to fade.

But a company makes a product thinner and thinner, which will still be exposed to friction and a sudden increase of contents, and you think nothing of it.

Be glad they are even wrapping the present in the first place. My wife used one the first time she had sex with her first husband,a nd lo and behold, she still got pregnant. Don't ban abortion. Ban sex under a specific age, and prosecute if someone under that limit becomes pregnant.

Oh. Wait. That might affect your Prom Princess or Homecoming King.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

The fact is that abortion is a brutal violation of human rights! This so-called doctor was destroying her own patients by brutally dismembering their little bodies in my opinion she is a disgrace to the medical community.

Armored_One 3 years, 10 months ago

If it is it's own, unique little human self, it shouldn't need the umbilical cord. Let's cut it and see what happens...

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 10 months ago

Even what you advocate above is the act of a very cold heart! We need to rebuild a culture of life in our nation in which each unborn child is welcomed and affirmed as they join the human race. Abortion is the opposite of this welcoming it is the cold destruction and dismemberment of the human child it is part of a culture of death.

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