Archive for Sunday, January 31, 2010

Roeder conviction angers anti-abortion militants

January 31, 2010

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Defendant Scott Roeder leaves the courtroom after the jury heard the closing arguments in his case on Friday in Wichita. Roeder was convicted of murdering Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller.

Defendant Scott Roeder leaves the courtroom after the jury heard the closing arguments in his case on Friday in Wichita. Roeder was convicted of murdering Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller.

— Those living on the virulent edge of the anti-abortion movement pinned their hopes on Scott Roeder.

Testifying in his own defense, a remorseless and resolute Roeder insisted he had committed a justified act for the defense of unborn children by killing Dr. George Tiller, one of the country’s few physicians to offer late-term abortions. It was a bold legal strategy that, if successful, had the potential to radically alter the debate over abortion by reducing the price for committing such an act of violence.

When it failed, those who share Roeder’s passionate, militant belief against abortion were outraged: One said they are getting tired of being treated as a “piece of dirt” unable to express the reasons for such acts in court. So while relieved at the outcome, abortion-rights advocates worry a verdict that should be a deterrent will instead further embolden those prone to violence.

“Many of those who came here in his support will be key to making (Roeder) a martyr for their cause — all in furtherance of advocating deadly violence,” said Kathy Spillar, executive vice president of the Feminist Majority Foundation.

‘Everybody is pretty angry’

Roeder faces a minimum sentence of life imprisonment with the possibility of parole after 25 years in prison when he’s sentenced March 9, although prosecutors will ask the judge to require the 51-year-old Kansas City, Mo., man to serve at least 50 years behind bars before he is eligible for parole. His attorneys plan to appeal, arguing jurors should have been allowed to consider the lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter, requiring proof that Roeder had an unreasonable but honest belief that deadly force was justified.

The Rev. Donald Spitz, of Chesapeake, Va., who runs the Army of God Web site supporting violence against abortion providers, said the rejection of that argument has upset those who view Roeder as a hero.

“I know there is not a lot of good feeling out there — everybody is pretty angry,” he said.

Spitz was the spiritual adviser to Paul Hill and was with him at his 2003 execution for the killing of a Florida abortion provider and a clinic escort in 1994, an event that led to a lull in violence at abortion clinics. While saying he knows nothing of impending plans by others against abortion doctors, Spitz scoffed at suggestions that Roeder’s conviction will have a similar effect.

“Times change,” Spitz said. “People are not as passive as they have been. They are more assertive.”

Such comments terrify abortion-rights advocates, who say they’ll continue to press the Obama administration for deeper protections, such as buffer zones around clinics, to protect doctors against others who might follow in Roeder’s steps. Vicki Saporta, president of the National Abortion Federation, said her group had noticed a rise in anti-abortion violence over the past year.

“We used to have members report incidents once a month — now it’s every day,” Saporta said. “Every time, we forward it on to Justice Department task force, and they report it to FBI so nothing slips through the cracks.”

Others are demanding a federal investigation and prosecution of what they claim is a network of extremists, citing Roeder’s testimony that he talked to others about justifiable homicide of abortion doctors.

“To see each murder as an isolated attack by one individual misses the fact there are these connections,” said Nancy Northup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights. “It’s of extreme concern that some anti-choice fanatics will want to see themselves martyred in similar ways. It is a frightening possibility there will be copy cats.”

In the wake of Tiller’s death, the Justice Department increased security around women’s health facilities and opened an ongoing investigation to try to determine if Roeder had accomplices.

Among the other spectators at the trial was Randall Terry, the founder of Operation Rescue, which organized the 1991 “Summer of Mercy” protests that included attempts to block Tiller’s Wichita clinic and led to more than 2,700 arrests. As the jury was deliberating in Wichita, Terry said he believed that no matter the outcome of Roeder’s trial, more violence was inevitable.

“The blood of these babies slain by Tiller is crying for vengeance,” he said.

Comments

BrianR 5 years, 1 month ago

"...those who share Roeder’s passionate, militant belief against abortion were outraged: One said they are getting tired of being treated as a “piece of dirt” "

Hey geniuses, that is because you are domestic terrorists and frankly, being compared to dirt is a step up for you. These nutcases should be hounded and their every move watched.

BrianR 5 years, 1 month ago

“Times change, people are not as passive as they have been. They are more assertive.” --Rev. Donald Spitz, domestic terrorist

This is code for someone else to 'step up' a commit a murder.

yankeevet 5 years, 1 month ago

why cant we all get along...............

Rodney

texburgh 5 years, 1 month ago

Extending the logic of people like Roeder, Donald Spitz, and Randall Terry, would one approve of the assasination of George W. Bush and Tony Blair to stop the shedding of innocent Iraqi blood? It seems to me that a terrorist is a terrorist.

rbwaa 5 years, 1 month ago

'When it failed, those who share Roeder’s passionate, militant belief against abortion were outraged: One said they are getting tired of being treated as a “piece of dirt” unable to express the reasons for such acts in court.' ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ again, they are the lowest of the low...scum is closer to what they are...and there are no reasons for such acts...'army of god' -- what crap!

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

Anyone's who's angry over Roeder's conviction has some serious mental issues and should be watched like a hawk.

Kathy Getto 5 years, 1 month ago

Agreed, jaywalker - and it appears we have just those kinds of people among us.

50YearResident 5 years, 1 month ago

Anti-abortion people's new moto: You gotta to kill em to save em"

Flap Doodle 5 years, 1 month ago

First degree murder is still against the law.

thatkidfromschool 5 years, 1 month ago

I don't know why the militant anti-abortionists think that two wrongs make a right. "Oh, well he performed late-term abortions--we're saving babies by killing him." It's a twisted logic that while some may believe, the rest probably hide behind it as an excuse for their behavior, which in itself is inexcusable.

Granted, late-term abortions are absolutely disgusting and appalling, and should be made illegal, but that's no reason to kill someone. If you want something to stop, you do so peacefully (protest, write to your Congressman, etc.). You don't go to their church, of all places, and nail 'em in the head.

Mariposa 5 years, 1 month ago

I am baffled. What other verdict could there have been? I mean, the killer did brag in a courtroom about his actions and said that he has no regret. Roeder will continue to see himself as strong and steadfast and true. I would hope that this does not happen again, but I am not sanguine.

snoozey 5 years, 1 month ago

Like the 9/11 terrorists and the Son of Sam killer before him Roeder is a monster - nothing less - and will have the remainder of his life to enjoy all prison has to offer.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

"If anyone can explain why they are any different then the Taliban, please post"

Aww, c'mon. You can't possibly be serious. Granted, these types of people, WHEN they act out, are no better than terrorists. But the same as the Taliban? Maybe if they blew up an entire clinic and everyone inside. Maybe if body count, regardless of who the victims would be, were there sole aim. Maybe if they forced everyone to adhere to a strict religious code where beard and dress length were strictly enforced on punishment of stoning or death. Maybe if they subjugated women to one step above dogs.

Roeder and his ilk are despicable, but let's keep things in perspective, folks. I'm pro-choice, but understand that the anti's position is, on its face, noble. That can't be said for the Taliban, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, or any of their type. Roeder walked up and killed one man. How many doctors have been attacked over the last decade? How many killed? How many innocents did the Taliban kill yesterday? How many girls did they kill because they were raped?

Get a grip.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

Jaywalker,

How is this for a grip.

As documented by the police (God knows how many of some of these have gone unreported)

Pro-Life Christian Talibaners have been found of having committed:

8 Murders 17 Attempted Murders 41 Bombings 171 Acts of Arson 96 Attempted Bombings and Arsons 642 Bomb Threats 148 Suspicious Packages Left at Clinics 390 Clinic Invasions 1400 Acts of Vandalism 1,993 Illegal Trespasses 100 Butyric Acid Attacks 659 Anthrax Threats 179 Assaults and Batteries 406 Death Threats 4 Kidnappings 151 Burglaries 525 Cases of Stalking

Then there are the ancillary crimes such as the man who beat his children with a 2x4 for refusing to handcuff themselves to a clinic van. The number of people who have beaten or kidnapped women planning on having an abortion...you think there is absolutely NO comparison to the Taliban?

yourworstnightmare 5 years, 1 month ago

As clear a case of domestic terrorism as could be made.

These people are terrorists. Whether or not you think abortion should be legal, these people use the same murder, violence and terror tactics as Al Quaeda. Both are fueled by blind ideology.

Terrorism has no place in modern society. These people need to be monitored very closely, lest their violent rhetoric translate into further acts of murder and violence.

verity 5 years, 1 month ago

What about "vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord"?

These kind of Christians, and a lot of other Christians I have known, don't trust God like they say they do. If they did, they wouldn't think they had to force other people to do "God's Will."

Personally, I don't think this is about abortion at all. If abortion went away today, they would find something else to be angry about. Abortion is just a convenient scapegoat for their anger and gives them an excuse to behave in ways that are generally unacceptable in a civilized society.

zzgoeb 5 years, 1 month ago

How long will we tolerate these zealot terrorists in our midst? Where did Jesus say kill the living to save the unborn?

yourworstnightmare 5 years, 1 month ago

verity, you are absolutely correct. I think that there are those who truly think that abortion is wrong. However, the extremist anti-abortion terrorists use abortion as an issue to consolidate their anger at the world and at modern society.

Many of these people feel like they have been left behind by modern society, and that they are entitled to their due. This makes them angry, and they find issues with which to wield their anger.

Most extremists only look outward, at how the world has wronged them and not given them their entitlement. They look outward for blame instead of looking inward to understand themselves and how to function and get ahead in modern society.

They fantasize that the world and modern society are keeping them down, and that the world owes them what they think they are due.

If this sounds like a petulant, childish, self-centered, entitled teen, that's because the analogy is not far off.

Joe Hyde 5 years, 1 month ago

A most interesting thing about assassination-style killings such as what Mr. Roeder committed is that after murdering his target he immediately flees the scene. It was the same thing with Murrah Federal Building bomber-assassin Tim McVeigh.

Only after they've been run to ground and captured by law enforcement do they make a heroic courtroom show of stoically "manning up" during their trial, by expressing no remorse or self-doubt about the lethal violence they inflicted on the unarmed person (or persons) they ambushed.

They try to fool us about the reality of why they fled the scene of the homicide. The real reason why they run is because they know from the beginning, deep down inside, that the killing they planned was wrong morally and legally. This is why after following through with their act they experience an immediate and overwhelming terror of being caught and held responsible.

Fleeing the scene of a killing they've committed, attempting to evade identification and elude taking personal responsibiliity, is not consistent with the behavior people normally exhbit when they honestly think and feel that what they did was justified.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 5 years, 1 month ago

I caame here today to put in my two cents worth, but most of you have already posted my beliefs. Persons who advocate murder to support their "religious" beliefs are no better than the islamic terrorist cells that pervert that religion. They should be carefully watched and arrested for making terroristic threats (a Federal crime). This has gone way beyond the issue of protecting the "unborn", it has become another domestic threat to civility and order. These "right to life" people are no better than the right wing militants who run around in their cammies in Idaho plotting to overthrow the U.S. Government and move the (I can't say the "N" word) out of the White House. Terrorism has become the movement of the age for those who cannot do legal and civil change to what they see as a "problem" and are willing to commit murder and other atrocities to vent their irrational logic. Many of the "Right to Life" people are not hesitant to forget the "Right to live". There is a good domestic use for Guantanamo.

Randall Uhrich 5 years, 1 month ago

Roeder is obviously mentally ill. They love to victimize his type in prison. Live long and suffer, you piece of human garbage!

beatrice 5 years, 1 month ago

I'm sure the members of Charles Manson's "family" were really angry when he was convicted too. These people are the lunatic fringe and have proven themselves capable of cold-blooded murder. They represent the extreme of right-wing ideology within our country. They are dangerous to all of us, and if the leaders of these groups are encouraging others to kill, they should be jailed, just as Manson was, even though he didn't take part in the murders himself.

jay, I disagree with you and feel that these people are indeed akin to the Taliban. The only thing separating them from the Taliban are greater numbers and political power. They have bombed clinics, without concern for who might be killed. Their desire to control the reproductive system of women (mostly stemming from religious beliefs) is also not far from forcing women to dress in a certain manner according to their religious code. (How many women in this group dress in the latest fashions?) Do you really believe that these people would object to stoning to death those with whom they disagree? What is the difference between a stone and a bullet? If they were handed a stone while in front of an abortion provider, do you really think they wouldn't feel justified in using that stone? They have shown they would use a bullet, so why not a stone?

Their support of a murderer shows that they are terrorists, and should be treated as such. Pretending they are anything less will only allow them to grow stronger.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 1 month ago

I'm not angry but I do support the cause. Roeder knew what could happen if he followed through. I doubt he really expected to get off on this because of his beliefs. I do not think it was Roeder that insisted on a trial but rather the justice system. Roeder has never denied killing Tiller and he was /still is aware that murder is a crime. That is why he opposes abortion. Anyone who expected the laws to change because of this case is delussional. I frankly do not believe Roeder is at his mental best. I cannot believe his attorneys would not have him plead insanity or temporary insanity. I doubt Roeder is concerned about serving prison time, rather I believe he simply wanted this issue to come to the forefront. Some are willing to risk their lives and/or thier freedom for what they believe. Looks like Roeder is one of them. Hopefully one day children will stop being killed because of sexual irresponsiblity.

verity 5 years, 1 month ago

If Randall Terry and Donald Spitz believe that what Roeder did was right, why do they only stand on the sidelines and cheer? I don't think Roeder would have done what he did had he not had encouragement from the likes of these two. In my opinion, Roeder is sick and the people who manipulate people like Roeder to do their dirty work are the real culprits.

And this is not a right/left issue or even necessarily a religious issue except that a sick form of religion is involved. This is an issue of people thinking they have the right to force other people to do their will and to use any means to do so.

Kathy Getto 5 years, 1 month ago

What cause are you talking about, artichoke? The murder of abortion doctors?

Amy Heeter 5 years, 1 month ago

verity the people who are really upset here are the prochoicers. They lost their front man and Roeder is not going to get the death penalty for it. Roeder made his choice and he believes it was the correct one. Others have the right to agree.

Mike Willoughby 5 years, 1 month ago

Roeder was sick and deranged! He testified that his other option that he considered was to chop off Tiller's hands. Sounds like this sicko would be better off in the lead roll of the next SAW movie rather than the lead of any political or moral "cause."

Yes, people have the right to agree with the pro-choice agenda, but those who idolize Roeder are in the wrong. Flat out wrong.

Kathy Getto 5 years, 1 month ago

Those who agree with what Roeder did warrant watching very closely, as they are dangerous.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

"I disagree with you and feel that these people are indeed akin to the Taliban. The only thing separating them from the Taliban are greater numbers and political power"

bea,

No offense, but that entire post was one false analogy after another. Saying these extremists are akin to the Taliban is assinine. There've been a whopping seven deaths from clinic bombings in 12 years; if they didn't care who or how many were killed they coulda had 70 in one shot. Anyone that thinks these types of people are anything like the Taliban obviously doesn't know bupkiss about the Taliban. This argument is silly.

"Pretending they are anything less will only allow them to grow stronger."

Wrong. Making them into something much bigger and more powerful than they are will only serve to make them grow stronger.

jonas_opines 5 years, 1 month ago

jaywalker: Most comparisons bog down pretty quickly, so I'll save a long analysis, but I do agree with one of Bea's earlier points. If some of these fringe groups had the organization, the power, and the legitimacy of the Taliban, there wouldn't be much difference between the two.

Thankfully, the country that these ones happen to be in is more stable and has a better foundation, thus denying these groups power and legitimacy. Dunno about organization.

jonas_opines 5 years, 1 month ago

"verity the people who are really upset here are the prochoicers. They lost their front man and Roeder is not going to get the death penalty for it."

Hard to argue with that. /In that it's incredibly dumb, not in that it's logically sound or observationally confirmed.

beatrice 5 years, 1 month ago

Jay, it is the mindset of the group, not the sizes of their bombs or the numbers killed thus far that makes them akin to the Taliban. Demonstrating a willingness to kill law-abiding citizens in the quest to force their religious views on others is Taliban-like. A willingness to bomb buildings without caring who the explosions might kill (as they have done) is Taliban-like. Attempting to control women's choices about their own reproductive systems through terrorist acts is Taliban-like, as are their justifications, which are based on extreme religious beliefs. The willingness to make someone a martyr for carrying out terrorist acts is also a page straight out of the Taliban play book.

Sure, these anti-choice extremists could use bigger bombs and kill more people (and I have no doubt that they will at some point), but their desire to control others through murderous acts based on religious beliefs is exactly what the Taliban has done. The only difference is that the Taliban has far greater numbers among their members and operate in areas of the world that have weaker law enforcement against such acts. To not recognize the connection between our home-grown terrorists and the Taliban is what is assinine.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

jaywalker (Anonymous) says… There've been a whopping seven deaths from clinic bombings in 12 years; if they didn't care who or how many were killed they coulda had 70 in one shot.

Besides winning my vote for most ignorant post of the day, exactly what is your threashold for murder, attempted murder, beatings, bombings, arson and the like systematically for the last 30 years that takes someone to the status of terrorist?

verity 5 years, 1 month ago

Jonas, that is exactly why I didn't respond.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

jonas,

On that point I would agree, but only to the extent we're still talking about an 'if'.

bea,

If you were strictly talking mindset, I'd agree to a point. But you're not and continue on with ridiculous comparisons.

"Demonstrating a willingness to kill law-abiding citizens in the quest to force their religious views on others is Taliban-like."

You re-state this a coupla times. The lone nutballs that walk up and kill doctors that perform abortions aren't acting to "force their religious views", they're murdering those they feel are murderers. Most know their act won't help their cause. They may be acting BEcause of their religious views. If they were like the Taliban they'd be murdering a heck of alot more from different walks of life than affiliation w/ abortions. And a number of these people act out of political fervor, case in point being Eric Rudolph- the number one domestic terrorist in our history.

"The only difference is that the Taliban has far greater numbers among their members and operate in areas of the world that have weaker law enforcement against such acts."

That much is true, albeit plagiarism.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

"Besides winning my vote for most ignorant post of the day"

Why? Because it was factually accurate? I wasn't minimizing the deaths of those 7 innocent people, just saying 7 in 12 years doesn't compare to what the Taliban do in a day.

"exactly what is your threashold for murder"

Let's not make this argument any sillier than it already is. I stated in my first post that these people are in a sense terrorists when they act out. But all terrorists are not equal, unless you believe those that act out of an affiliation with PETA or the Sierra Club are akin to the Taliban as well.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

"They are making the comparison with the Taliban based on the fact that are pushing their fundamental christian beliefs on others… if the people don't respond and live how they want them to live they resort to violence and terror tactics. Much like the Taliban."

Verity,

Again, I feel that in a sense, and I like how you ended with "much like the Taliban", and not 'just like.' Size and scope, difference in countries, all valid points. But they're NOT "forcing their fundamental christian beliefs on others"; they're acting on those beliefs, but they're not forcing anyone to do anything, which the Taliban does. Not only that, these people are focusing on a single item in their religious doctrine, and they've focused on their 'targets'. That is if they're even acting out of some extreme faith, like I pointed out above with Rudolph. If they were akin to the Taliban they'd be targeting all women who get abortions, congressman, senators, etc. Not to mention homosexuals, people who didn't go to church on Sunday, blasphemers, adulterers, thieves, etc. etc. etc.

The only things that seem to be considered here are: they both act out of religious fervor and they both murder. While that's true to an extent, that's not nearly enough to say one is the same as the other.

beatrice 5 years, 1 month ago

plagiarism? huh?

Jay, who exactly did I plagarize, and why would I begin such a practice now when I've always been willing to quote others when posting here in the past? Others might have written similar ideas, but I wouldn't just take someone else's words and used them as my own. Why bother? Seriously.

You call Roeder a "lone nutball," but that is missing the point. Though he was alone in the shooting, he isn't a "lone nutball," which is what this story is all about. There is a support system of like-minded indivduals who are actually willing to express anger over his being found guilty for obviously killing someone. The story states, "those who share Roeder’s passionate, militant belief against abortion were outraged." They share a militant belief for which some are willing to kill in an attempt to force their beliefs on others. What they are missing is better organization, and that is all that really separates them from the Taliban.

You are correct that not all organizations attempting to push a social agenda are alike. Once PETA starts shooting cattle farmers in the head, however, then yes, I would move them up to Taliban-like status.

beatrice 5 years, 1 month ago

"If they were akin to the Taliban they'd be targeting all women who get abortions, congressman, senators, etc. Not to mention homosexuals, people who didn't go to church on Sunday, blasphemers, adulterers, thieves, etc. etc. etc."

I'm sure if we give them enough time ...

50YearResident 5 years, 1 month ago

Why would someone that thinks abortion is "murder" also think that after the fetus grows up to be an adult it is then "OK" to murder it without any guilt? Wasn't Dr Tiller once a fetus?

pace 5 years, 1 month ago

I wish the self appointed could be charged as co-conspirators. I wish these people would at least extend their "compassion" to compassion and advocation for children's issues but they mostly seem interested in issues that decrease the rights of women.

Someone said they anti-choice nut cases aren't forcing their views on others, they seem to be missing the shootings and legal maneuvers. A thin line in the Supreme court stands between a woman and the knowing elders of the wing nut church. With the "latest" supreme court ruling that a corporation is a person, watch them, some poor super medical corporation will be accused of murder and some of these zealots will have to maverick an HMO or Hospital board with a drive by..

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

bea, Sorry, plagiarism was the wrong word. You happened to mimic jonas' point, perhaps just a coincidence, if so I apoligize.

"They share a militant belief for which some are willing to kill in an attempt to force their beliefs on others"

Again, they kill to kill. Show me how they're attempting to force their belief on others. The Taliban says you behave, act, dress, pray exactly the way we do or 'it's curtains, infidel'. These people do none of that. They're against abortion and they wish to save unborn babies. They're trying to stop abortion clinics from performing. They act out of their own sense of religion, MAYBE, but they don't try to force their doctirine on anyone, at least not that I've read. Had some hardcore, right wing christians knockin' on your door, have ya? Trying to get you to convert?

"What they are missing is better organization, and that is all that really separates them from the Taliban. "

Better organization and they'd be just like the Taliban? First of all, that's ridiculous. But thank you for agreeing that they aren't like them now, which is my only point in this silly runaround.

"I'm sure if we give them enough time …"

Roe v Wade was what? 35 years ago? Yeah, any decade now.

Guys, come up with something more than they both act out of religious beliefs and they've both murdered. That's not a valid argument. I've come up with a dozen examples of how they're un-alike, ya'll keep comin' back with 'they would if they could'. Not talkin' 'bout 'ifs' here. Otherwise we can agree to disagree. This is all so silly. Roeder and his kind are murderers, plain and simple. Know what? They'd argue that 14 million babies aborted since R v W is the real crime. Is the Taliban acting out of a vengeance for the unborn or anything even remotely altruistic? Not supporting the anti's in any sense here, just pointing out another striking difference. They're not "akin to the Taliban."

terrapin2 5 years, 1 month ago

I think someone needs to watch comraderedrooster's house. You tell a family with an unborn child with a condition that will not allow the baby to survive outside the womb that "developmental outcomes" is ridiculous. You are the one with zero compassion for the living. What about the mother that might die herself? You think these decisions are made frivolously? They are not performing these procedures on teenagers who accidentally got pregnant and just didn't make a decision until she was 8 months along, so don't try and make it seem that way. You LIE. You have no idea what you are talking about. No one is pro-abortion. Pro-choice people are not out hunting down pregnant girl's and forcing them to have an abortion. That sounds more like a tactic your side would use. As far as "death panels" are concerned you LIE again.Have you seriously not gotten past "death panels"? Are you really that stupid or are your posts jokes? Quit trying to scare people with false hypothetical examples. No one would tell someone they weren't worth health care, at any age. The end of life counselor is a choice. No one sends you there against your will. If you want to discuss your options about end of life care with your doctor great! If not don't. It's called choice. But I guess you have a problem understanding choice.

rbwaa 5 years, 1 month ago

i disagree with all those who believe roeder is mentally ill, mentally disturbed, temporarily insane, insane, etc. -- pure and simple he is evil - to kill someone with the malice, premeditation and lack of remorse he displayed is evil.

beatrice 5 years, 1 month ago

Jay, I can't believe you are supporting the antis like this.

yes, just kidding.

Why should there be more to the argument than religious fanatacism, and why do you believe they only have a single social agenda in mind? How many of these religious fanatics also oppose gay marriage? How about women's rights, beyond just women's reproductive rights? What other right-wing social ideas do these people share? So they haven't been able to gain much power in 35 years in their fight to overturn access to abortion. That doesn't mean they won't keep trying. How many centuries did it take the Taliban to gain control?

"Again, they kill to kill. Show me how they're attempting to force their belief on others. ... "

Seriously? They aren't just killing people at random. They are trying to stop women from having access to abortion providers through killing the providers. They can't change the laws through the legal system, so they are killing instead as the way to force their views on others by eliminating access to a legal service. (If I didn't believe you had the right to phone service, cutting the lines and knocking down the satalite towers would be a pretty effective way of forcing my views, wouldn't it?)

"Had some hardcore, right wing christians knockin' on your door, have ya? Trying to get you to convert?"

I don't know how hardcore they were, but yes, I have had people knock on my door to talk about their religious beliefs in an attempt to convert me. However, I never let them get that far into their routine to find out the true level of their hardcore-ness. I do know I've never had an atheist knock on my door asking me to join them in their non-belief in a higher power.

So yes, perhaps we are arguing over semantic issues. You don't feel these fanatics are akin to the Taliban, while I disagree and feel they are equally fanatical in their beliefs. Reasonable enough.

And I honestly didn't see jonas's post until after I posted my comment.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

"Why should there be more to the argument than religious fanatacism,,,?"

Because even an inductive argument must take at least three similarities for comparison.

"How many of these religious fanatics also oppose gay marriage?"

To that and all the other questions listed after - you tell me? Good chance they do. But if they were like the Taliban they'd be killing them to.

"they are killing instead as the way to force their views"

Don't know why this is so difficult to grasp, but no, they are not. They are "killing the killers", as one such Army of God leader put it. You cutting my phone lines doesn't force your views upon me, it cuts my phone service. Killing Tiller didn't force doctrine on anyone. The Taliban forces doctrine, colonialists forced doctrine. Their actions haven't changed the law, forced changes in communities or churches, and I highly doubt they've forced anyone to their way of thinking that didn't already want to take their side. Nobody has HAD to adopt their belief system, therefore they haven't forced their views on anyone.

"I have had people knock on my door to talk about their religious beliefs "

Me, too. They were Jehovah's Witnesses. I haven't heard of roving bands of right=wing extremist Baptists making the rounds for a 'Conversion or Else' tour. Not saying they're not out there, just never heard of it.

"You don't feel these fanatics are akin to the Taliban, while I disagree and feel they are equally fanatical in their beliefs."

Aha! Re-read your two independent clauses, bea. Being the same as the Taliban and being equally fanatical in their particular beliefs isn't the same thing. And while 'our' group is definitely fanatical, if they were equal to the Taliban they'd be lashing out at everything and everyone who broke ANY of their religious convictions, not just this one.

Yeah, my bad on that comment, the cynic in me coming out. My sincere apologies.

sciencegeek 5 years, 1 month ago

I have a suggestion: when TomShewmon, or anyone else who makes off-the-topic comments to push their own rabid agenda, posts a comment, someone can call "Squatter" as a sign to everyone else to ignore them. That way, they can go back to that sad, dark place where they live, and the discussion can continue.

Mariposa 5 years, 1 month ago

porch_person I would suggest that people Google the birth defects that you wrote about and look at the pictures. Surely, there can be no rational argument as to whether or not these babies should be aborted. I wonder if in the past such babies were thought to be monsters and their mothers would have been convicted of consorting with a demon in order to have produced such a child. Isn't it possible to use such infants for medical research to find out what causes such things and to prevent them? Why mutilate and discard the body when so much can be learned from it.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

Jaywalker tries to say that the right to lifers are not as bad as the Taliban because the Taliban is more extreme and has more numbers on their side.

He fails deeply by one singular point.

The Muslim Taliban, just like the Christian Taliban want to force everyone to follow their beliefs and they try to do it through violence, laws, death, bombing, hate, brainwashing and they expect nothing less than full domination and force of their beliefs on others and will fight to the death for it.

And those that do not oppose them, support them...jaywalker.

verity 5 years, 1 month ago

jaywalker, you address me in your 3:09 post. I don't believe I ever mentioned the Taliban. I tend to shy away from analogies. While they may work to a point, they tend to fall apart at some point.

And that is what this argument seems to have come to.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

"He fails deeply by one singular point."

No, I didn't, not that you were actually able to back up that assertion in the least. And that long list of drivel you posted after the above I've already disproved a number of times. But thanks for playing.

"And those that do not oppose them, support them…jaywalker"

What's that supposed to be? Your big finish w/ a zinger? I do oppose them, jackass, or have you conveniently forgotten where I've stated such as well?

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

verity,

My apologies, got you and vertigo mixed up.

Mariposa 5 years, 1 month ago

porch_person I believe that I wrote medical research. I confess that I am not up to date on precisely what kind of research is being done in this area. There are diseases and birth defects of which the cause is not known and there is no cure. I apologize if I have wrote out of turn. I would certainly not support "experimentation" on a fetus kept alive by artificial means as pain could still be felt, even if thinking was absent. It is searing to see the things that can go wrong during pregnancy. I had no idea. Now, I am terrified at the idea of becoming pregnant. I don't think I could deal with that.

Michael Throop 5 years, 1 month ago

Extending the logic of people like Roeder, Donald Spitz, and Randall Terry, would one approve of the assasination of George W. Bush and Tony Blair to stop the shedding of innocent Iraqi blood? It seems to me that a terrorist is a terrorist. You may remember all the excitement about the "docu-drama" produced by a Canadian filmmaker doing the "what if Bush was assassinated?" line of thinking. A lot of people said nothing, save for the leftist loons who loved the art aspect of their secret dream. Where was the outrage? Was there a spike in threats to the President? I DO NOT DO NOT in any way shape of form support any type of violence against abortion clinics. I do consider myself pro life...EVERYBODY'S LIFE.

lwctown 5 years, 1 month ago

If only Roeder's or Tiller's mothers would have chosen abortion this would have never happened.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 5 years, 1 month ago

TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

“Well so when “right wing extremist” (ie, people/groups who organize to vehemently disagree with his policies and progressive far-left institionalization) can be shut down.

I thought it was obvious, but of course it wasn't."

When you have these visions, do you see multicolor streamers coming from everything? You seem to be on a bad trip all the time.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 1 month ago

The judge did NOT deny Scott Roeder his trial rights. To qualify for the lesser charge the killing had to meet clear guidelines set down by the legislature of this state. It did not meet those guidelines just as the killing did not meet the guidelines for capital murder. He will not win any appeal based on that assertion. Personally, I'm glad he will not be executed. Not because I champion his cause in any way but because it prevents him from being turned into a martyr by others (such as Army of God) for their cause. A point was brought up earlier that I had never really considered and, quite frankly, was a bit of an epiphany. Militant anti-abortionists are not the way they are because they are sincerely pro-life but because they need a cause to vent their anger with a system that they see as having out ran them, out grown them and passed them by. This is evidenced by the fact that no matter what logical, rational arguments you present to them they refuse to give up their illogical, irrational beliefs even when confronted with direct evidence. ComradeRedRooster's earlier post about chopping up an 8 month fetus is a case in point. As for "pro-choicers being angry over losing their front man", another will take Dr. Tiller's place and instead he will become the martyr. His murder has served as a wake up call to the fact that we have such home grown domestic terrorists here. I'm sure that the Army of God's website has received a ton of hits since this happened but how many reacted with disgust when they saw it? No one is "pro-abortion" (except maybe the Chinese government) but that doesn't automatically make anyone "anti-abortion" either. This is not a black and white issue.as much as some people would like to make it one.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

jaywalker,

saying that the the Christian Taliban is not like the Muslim Taliban is like saying the the Klan is not like the Nazi Party.

Same Goal, same method, just fewer in number.

what a crock.

jonas_opines 5 years, 1 month ago

"They basically have the same goals, same method"

Hahaha. . . . nope.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

"saying that the the Christian Taliban is not like the Muslim Taliban is like saying the the Klan is not like the Nazi Party.

Same Goal, same method, just fewer in number."

Brilliant argumentative strategy, Ivalue. Ignore all previous points, make another pointless analogy, don't support any of it. "They're like them 'cuz I say so. Hayuk!"

Yeah, when you cop a clue get back to me.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 1 month ago

Well we got rid of Marion. How long before we can get rid of the other thread hijacking, off topic, internet troll in love with his own voice and computer??

Amy Heeter 5 years, 1 month ago

Tiller is dead, Roeder is going to prison for life and the unborn have a stay of execution even if temporary.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

Jawyalker,

That is all the anology that is needed, same goal, same methods just fewer in number.

It is well documented that domestic violence is well above average in households self-labeled as fundamentalist Christian, the level of bombings, shootings, kidnappings, arsons, stalkings is well documented. The fact that many rejoiced and not condemed when the murder occured is a carbon copy of the Taliban.

You can make up anything you want to try and deny it, but the fact remains, nothing separates you from the Taliban other than the book and the number of followers. If your numbers were allowed to grow, if you were given the legislative preference you are seeking, you would be exactly the same and no doubt there would be Christian Taliban style Shahira courts soon after.

Traitors, enemies and terrororists are the same, one is not better because they do not wear a turbin and are a little more media savvy, they are actually more dangerous.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

redrooster,

You are a hoot and a half, funniest liar left on the board since the M was banished.

There are a lot of people here who are apposed to abortion, but unlike Tom, did not sing praises for picking up a gun and putting a gun to tillers head at church and blasting his brains onto the alter.

That is why Tom has gotten grief, not because he is not pro-choice.

However, to make up a lie and stick with it is easier for you than to look at the reality.

Good luck with that. it is why I do not report posts, I love it when people like you keep making yourself look foolish by your inability to be honest.

Satirical 5 years, 1 month ago

"I love it when people like you keep making yourself look foolish by your inability to be honest." - ivalueamerica

Pot calling kettle...come in kettle...over...

gatekeeper 5 years, 1 month ago

artichokeheart (Anonymous) says…

Tiller is dead, Roeder is going to prison for life and the unborn have a stay of execution even if temporary.


You are a scary person. I think you should be watched. You seem too happy that a murder was committed. If you think any killing was ok, then you are no better than the abortion doctors. Jesus would be very ashamed of you.

Since you are very ignorant on the subject, once Tiller was MURDERED, another doctor took over his case load. See, MURDERING a doctor doesn't end a LEGAL procedure from happening. It just means that one doctor is gone and another takes their place.

How does it feel to be a murderer? You weren't the triggerman, but you're no better than him.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 1 month ago

"cait48: Another far-left zealot who is a staunch proponent of censorship, toeing the Obama line. "

Why Tom! How did you even know I was talking about you? I mean it could have been CRR or any number of other posters. However, if the shoe fits (and obviously you must think so).... Here's to Tom Shewmon. A legend in his own mind. Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

And to you Agnostick, I have to give the award of the best laugh of the entire week. All Tom needs to do is copy and paste that into any thread he's on. Over and over and over again. That way he doesn't waste valuable time thinking up a logical, coherent answer to anything. Well, not that he does anyway, but just think how many more forums he can hijack doing that! I'm sure his heart is just going pittypat thinking about it!

CRR, black coffee, orange juice and lots of water. Take a B12 vitamin and avoid Tylenol or ibuprophen. The headache and nausea will go away once you're hydrated.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

ivalue: "That is all the anology that is needed, same goal, same methods just fewer in number."

First of all, that's not an analogy. Second, they do NOT have the "same goal", that's so stupid it baffles. They don't use the "same methods" either, unless you're simple minded enough to say "they kill - they killed, duuuuh that's all there is to it, folks".

"You can make up anything you want to try and deny it, but the fact remains, nothing separates you from the Taliban other than the book and the number of followers"

Make up anything I want? I've cited concrete examples. All you've offered up is "uh uh". And what's with "you" throughout that passage? That's now supposed to be an affiliation of mine? What's wrong with you?

"If your numbers were allowed to grow, if you were given the legislative preference you are seeking, you would be exactly the same and no doubt there would be Christian Taliban style Shahira courts soon after."

It's official. You're a moron. "If your.....if you...........you would......and no doubt........"??!! Speculation accusation speculation accusation wild assumption? Brilliant! Through your imagination the anti's are "just like the Taliban", and I'm one of 'em? Gotcha. You've adopted the porch person method of argument. You're sure to have a nice life. Sentence, that is.

Like I said before, say something tangible or bug off. Your 'argument' that 'they are 'cuz I say so' can be heard any day on any playground. Don't need to waste my time with it here.

yourworstnightmare 5 years, 1 month ago

right_thinker said: "I could not have described far-left zealots any better myself. Looks like you're coming around to sanity, nightmare. "

Alas, we agree on something, right_thinker. Extremists on both the right and left are characterized by my statements. PETA, SLA, and the Weather Underground on the left, and Teabaggers, anti-abortion nuts, and white supremacists on the right

ferrislives 5 years, 1 month ago

Could ComradeRedRooster be Marion's evil twin brother?

ferrislives 5 years, 1 month ago

Anti-abortion extremeists are absolutely domestic terrorists, and they'll only get worst. If they could figure a way to bomb a clinic without killing the fetuses (nevermind the pregnant women), they would have already done it.

Roeder on the other hand is just an attention-seeking coward who ran and hid until he was caught, instead of manning-up in the first place to what he says he rightfully did.

maxc 5 years, 1 month ago

CRR and Ag make me laugh - for totally different reasons, of course. I sometimes chime in but often just watch the sparring. It amazes me how off-course and childish the conversation can become. My humble suggestion would be to ignore the lamest of posts. But then I would miss all the hoopla.

To the point of the article I would say Roeder had a fair trial and was guilty. I agree that any group that advocates violence is militant and terroristic. Terrorists need to be monitored by government agencies, whether they are domestic terrorists or foreign. Bottom line is that abortion is legal in America. If folks disagree with the law, they should try to change it, not kill people.

ferrislives 5 years, 1 month ago

Auroch (Anonymous) says…"I don’t know who are scarier, militant pro-lifers or those of you who want the state to monitor and police citizen's thoughts."

Isn't that already done with Title II of the Patriot Act?

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

Redrooster,

I am sorry for you and your love of the Taliban style extreme Christian right and your failure to care enough about your country to oppose it, but it speaks volumes about what sort of person you are deep inside and I pray you look in a mirror and confront your failures.

ferrislives 5 years, 1 month ago

I think that it just takes common sense to create an extremist watch list, when people are dumb enough to get in trouble with the law (ex: bomb making, bomb threats, etc)

Here are some exerpts from a Time magazine article on Scott Roeder before he committed this crime, and why he should have been on some sort of extremist watch list:

~ In April 1996, a 38-year-old Scott Roeder — thought to be the same man — was arrested in Topeka, Kans., after Shawnee County police stopped him for not having a proper license plate. Officers said they found bomb-making supplies in the car: ammunition, a blasting cap, a fuse cord, a 1-lb. can of gunpowder and two 9-volt batteries. (remind you of somebody in Oklahoma City?) ~ Posting on the website for Operation Rescue, which included a "Tiller Watch" feature, a man identifying himself as Scott Roeder asked in 2007 whether anyone had considered going to Tiller's church to ask the doctor about his work.

You can read the entire thing at http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1902189,00.html

What destinction is there between Scott Roeder and Timothy McVeigh, besides that Roeder fought against abortion, and McVeigh against the government? Besides their enemies, they are very similar.

maxc 5 years, 1 month ago

It's a fact that the government can monitor anyone without justified cause. I do believe we should monitor groups that condone and support violence against other Americans. There are some very dangerous people out there.

ferrislives 5 years, 1 month ago

ComradeRedRooster, you'll notice that I did not call it a right-wing extremist group. Extremists are extremists, regardless of what political views that have. Politics shouldn't even be brought into this conversation; just idiot radicals and the people that want to justify their actions.

I'm sure that those on here that are posting supportive words for Roeder wouldn't say the same about Timothy McVeigh murdering innocent children because he hated the government. But that's only because they don't believe in what his cause was. They only believe in these sort of extreme actions if they believe in the cause. And that's just stupid, because that's the exact same justification that Muslim extremists use.

I know, I know. No innocent children have been hurt by the anti-abortion groups........yet. It's only a matter of time, and that will be defended by their followers as well.

ferrislives 5 years, 1 month ago

Auroch, if Obama gets arrested with bomb-making materials in his car, then yes, he should be on the list as well. But that's just wishful thinking for a lot of people who are still bitter about the election.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

It is a shame redrooster is a traitor in the form of the Rosenbergs. He supports a cause that bombs, murders, kidnaps, and advocates the demise of the Constitution of the USA in favor of forming a religious state.

He supports trashing the very foundation of the USA and that makes him dangerous.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

tom, I am pretty sure most of us love when you post as you are your own worst enemy.

You are continually caught telling things that are not true and making crazy statements that do more to discredit yourself than anyone else ever could.

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

Comrade:

Who came up with the Porch Playbook? That is prrrrriceless! And a perfect rendition. I'd really like to congratulate and thank the person who took the time to draw that out. Marvelous!

Well done, whomever!

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

Excellent, porch! That's a good doggie, yes he is yes he is!

Right out of the playbook! You've just demonstrated Steps 1 through 5 perfectly. Thank you!

Like a dog returns to his vomit, so does a fool to his folly. That's a gooood boy!

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

“It was a bad sentence, but it was ONE sentence"

What's that sentence refer to, porch? 'Cuz it's the hinge to what the rest of the paragraph is about. I was referring to Sotomayor's "wise latina" remark, and the rest of the parargraph is explaining by analogy how it was being blown way out of proportion. The sentence that follows-

"There's no doubt if the roles were reversed and a white man was in her (Sotomayor's) place he wouldn't have gotten this far."

  • is a reference back to the opening sentence, as in: 'There's no doubt that if the roles were reversed and a white male judge had made a 'wise caucasian' remark he wouldn't have gotten as far through the vetting process as she had at that time'.

But this has been explained to you, painfully I might add, since even the simplest mind should have been able to grasp it from the start. Yet you continue to skew it to your perverse Porch Playbook!

And the Imus thing? You're a moron, which should go without saying but it's oddly satisfying in reference to yourself.
I said "the Imus thing.....was blown out of proportion.." Blown out of proportion, porchie, I never said - in ANY fashion - that I was "ok with calling a black woman Rutgers basketball player a “nappy headed hoe”". So my response is nothing but sarcasem - "Yeah, sure, that's what I said". Since I didn't say that, it would have to be sarcasm, now wouldn't it? But nope, you put the Porch Playbook into effect. And since you're so weak I have no doubt you'll continue to do so, even after it's been spelled out for you. Again. Takes a big man to admit when they're wrong. Problem is, you're not even a man, let alone a 'big' man.

You're a mental midget, porch, and what's more, you know it. That's why the Playbook. Now be a good widdle doggie and do it again. Come on, boy, ya know ya wanna, good boy!

jaywalker 5 years, 1 month ago

Comrade, It's too easy. There needs to be an addendum to the Playbook; very last dictate should be that, due to a manic need to get the last word in, no matter how repetitive or demented, he WILL respond.
Not gonna bother with his last 'cuz I know exactly what it is: more of the same Playbook. It's incredbily funny and then for some odd reason.......it's sad. Can't figure that part out.

Gotta figure out who wrote that

jonas_opines 5 years, 1 month ago

porch_person (Anonymous) says…

"Looks to me like you're the one who desires to have the last word, jaywalker……"

Not from where I'm sitting. But of course. . . . . . . . Victory is Mine!!!! bwahahaha

jaywalker (Anonymous) says…

"Comrade, It's too easy. There needs to be an addendum to the Playbook; very last dictate should be that, due to a manic need to get the last word in, no matter how repetitive or demented, he WILL respond."

You should be careful, jaywalker. Even fighting those whom you respect the least, openly siding with the least of the least is a bad strategy.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

That's rich, the anti-Constitutional traitor RedRooster calls others Communists.

Really, roster, you are no different than M, totally dishonest and a failure to all values American

bd 5 years, 1 month ago

We need an old fashion necktie party! Eye for an eye !!!!!!!

ferrislives 5 years, 1 month ago

ComradeRedRooster (Anonymous) says…

"Ferrislives, You fail to mention Ted Kazinski, the unibomber, he killed 3 people and terrorized the nation for years. He was a left of center kinda guy, subscribed to the eco-terrorist mindset. I know, I know. No innocent children have been hurt by the eco-terrorist groups……..yet. It's only a matter of time, and that will be defended by their followers as well.

Thanks Buddy"

Wow PrivateRedChicken, you're welcome. I thought I'd never receive a "Thank You" from such a thinker such as yourself.

You can add Theodore Kaczynski (spelled properly) to the list if you'd like; I don't care. It just furthers my point that terrorists are terrorists, regardless of their political views. They should all be seen in the same light: Extremism = Eventual terrorism, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Anti-government, Anti-abortion, or whatever else. Just look at history as proof.

What's funny is that you try so hard to be seen as a Libertarian, but you act much more like a Communist. I guess the "Red" in your name fits perfectly.

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

bd,

If you are going to use Exodus to dole out punishments, let's do it right.

2“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

5“But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6then his master must take him before the judges.a He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,b he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

12“Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

15“Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.

16“Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.

17“Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

18“If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist and he does not die but is confined to bed, 19the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed.

20“If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

22“If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

LoveThsLife 5 years, 1 month ago

Interesting study just came out about sex education programs. Abstinence only programs work...just depends on how they are taught. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/02/abstinenceonly_education_works.html

Interesting.

Here is the actual study

http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/164/2/152?home

ivalueamerica 5 years, 1 month ago

porch, do not confuse lovelife with facts, they just get in the way.

LoveThsLife 5 years, 1 month ago

It is amazing to me how you can accept the official stats of a communist country without any real verification as to whether or not they are a real portrayal as to what is going on, and yet when research is published in a peer-reviewed journal you can't even take it seriously.

Astonishing..and also a great display of your narrow mindedness.

Of course there has to be more research done that would be a given. However, the study is interesting in the fact that it shows a significant difference.

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