Archive for Thursday, August 12, 2010

Firefighter cited for battery after argument

Incident involved national anthem at FSHS performance

The charge comes from an altercation with another man during a band concert when the firefighter asked the man to remove his hat during the national anthem.

August 12, 2010

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A Lawrence firefighter was cited for battery and ordered to appear in municipal court after a Friday confrontation with another parent at a Free State High School marching band performance.

The incident stems from a parent not taking off his hat as the band played the national anthem.

Police spokesman Sgt. Matt Sarna said that according to the report, Daniel Clouse, 47, approached Bob Mandell, 46, in the stands minutes after the Free State band played the anthem.

Clouse was upset Mandell wore his hat, so he approached him from behind and grabbed Mandell by the neck, Sarna said. Officers were called and gave Clouse the ticket to appear in court Sept. 1.

“He grabbed me by the neck and shook me,” Mandell said. “He put his hand around the back of my neck and pressed on the left hand side with his right thumb. The spot still hurts.”

Clouse, a firefighter with Lawrence-Douglas County Fire Medical, disputes that he grabbed Mandell. Clouse said he put his hand on the back of his neck to get Mandell’s attention.

“What I said was, ‘Excuse me, sir, around here when the national anthem plays, you remove your hat. Show some respect,’” Clouse said.

Clouse said Mandell told him he forgot to remove his hat.

“The guy behind me said this is not the time or the place,” Clouse said. “It was a 30-second conversation. I didn’t smack him. I didn’t hit him at all.”

Clouse said he believed Mandell was embarrassed and then called police. But Mandell said he called officers because he was hurt and that he went to the doctor Saturday because of neck pain. He also said Clouse shoved him when Clouse walked off.

Mandell said during the confrontation he apologized to Clouse and said he simply forgot to remove his hat. He said he doesn’t often attend football games and was not used to hearing the national anthem.

Mandell said wasn’t trying to be unpatriotic and that he had his hand over his heart. He also said he had a camera with him that evening and before the national anthem he took a photo of the American flag at the stadium.

“I wasn’t doing it out of not being patriotic,” Mandell said. “But if I did, then what he did is actually directly countered to our rights and freedoms.”

Clouse said he would plead not guilty and fight the charge in court. He said he had witnesses who would back up his story.

Mark Bradford, chief of Lawrence-Douglas County Fire Medical, confirmed Clouse was a firefighter.

“That particular issue is personal and a personnel matter, and I really can’t go into it,” Bradford said.

Mandell said he hoped Clouse would be convicted of the charge.

“I’m disappointed that he’s a firefighter,” Mandell said. “He should know better. I have the utmost respect for firefighters and for police and for the military. Those guys really do put it on the line for the rest of us.”

Clouse said the incident was blown out of proportion.

“My intention was to point out the etiquette,” Clouse said. “And the touching part was to get across my intention of talking to him.”

Comments

Carol Braden 5 years, 8 months ago

Be sure to read Jayhawk4030 and cammieb's comments about this Letter to the Editor. We were both witnesses to the confrontation.

weeslicket 5 years, 8 months ago

good post. thank your for the redirection to actual fact.

uncleandyt 5 years, 8 months ago

Etiquette must be enforced, by any means necessary. How are we supposed to remain the best and greatest country that ever was, or will be, if the hat-people start forgetting to remove their hats when it's time to REMOVE THAT HAT. This situation makes me ashamed to be an American. What's next?..singin' the wrong words? It seems like we just don't know what's important anymore.

weeslicket 5 years, 8 months ago

how about fascism? fascism might solve this problem for you.

KEITHMILES05 5 years, 8 months ago

There is a right and wrong way to get this guys attention. It's very clear any contact with the person as described in the situation is illegal. The message may have been clear but touching a person is violating the law. The firefighter needs to stand up like a man and admit his fault and take his punishment.

nonbeliverofprint 5 years, 8 months ago

Touching a person on their back to get their attention in a loud stadium is not worth a punishment. This is just ridiculous. Someone trying to get their 5 minutes of fame but instead looking like a fool.

doccletus 5 years, 8 months ago

"touching a person is violating the law."

Inaccurate statement. Depends on many factors.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Simple battery is non-consensual insulting touch.

Grabbing someone by the back of the neck and telling them to remove their hat is simple battery, imho.

It's not illegal to not remove one's hat, and the firefighter has no legal right to grab the guy by the neck, or to attempt to compel him to remove his hat.

Steve Jacob 5 years, 8 months ago

Heat makes people go crazy. I would think he could be fired for this, if convicted. Police and fireman are held to a higher standard off duty.

Stuart Evans 5 years, 8 months ago

how awkward will it be if that fireman is called to the other guys house for an emergency.

Stuart Evans 5 years, 8 months ago

"Liberals such as yourself has thrown a fit so you now are not forced to remove your hat during the National Anthem"

at what point in this country was anyone forced by law to remove their hat?

I was under the impression that this was a country of freedom to respect and disrespect any damned thing we wish.

Thanks to your husband for fighting for our country and the tradition of freedom. I don't think he would be please that you would prefer to force people to do anything.

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

"properly write correctly"

Seriously, if you're going to write an entire comment excoriating folks for not using proper English, you might want to make sure your own comment is flawless. (In case you don't know, the flaw in the above quote is redundancy.)

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

Re-read your comment directly above mine. You wrote "properly write correctly." That is redundant. And, hey, since I'm pointing them out, you also wrote "tell" instead of "tells" which would be improper noun-verb agreement.

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

Wow.

You can't be serious, right? You're just a bored teenager who's been messing with everyone on the ljworld forum all day, right?

Because if the above comment isn't a joke, I'm scared.

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

Somebody needs to school you how wrong you are. Threatening that fire fighters won't come to people's homes. Approving battery. Thinking people don't deserve to have opinions. I really don't think you have any concept of what your husband has deployed to a 3rd world country to fight for.

(Oh, and remember how it bugs you when people claim other people's vet service as if it were there own? Have you ever deployed to a 3rd world country?)

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

You're right. My bad. You didn't actually say that firefighters wouldn't go to homes. You just hoped that they would drive the speed limit, thus implying that you hoped they would take so long to get to the burning home, they would be too late to save it. (At least, that's how I took the remark. There was also something about first responders and CPR...)

My apologies.

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

No, really, Hedley, after you. On second thought, let's just both skip it and get a stiff drink. I'm not sure Socrates himself could school this one.

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

Ah. Reading through all of her comments has made my head spin.

Mr_B9 5 years, 8 months ago

"One less firefighter right now means one less firefighter to save you, your neighbor or your family if there is a fire in your home."

How many people are unemployed right now? If he broke the law , he broke the law, Period and I am sure his shoes could be filled.

I do agree with you about the heat. That was funny......

doccletus 5 years, 8 months ago

Judge Judy is certainly the best source for interpreting the law. Right up there with Jerry Springer as a paragon of good taste.

Stuart Evans 5 years, 8 months ago

I'd like to buy a comma, or perhaps a semicolon.

Stuart Evans 5 years, 8 months ago

is replying to your own post with the exact same post the equivalent of "liking" it?

Stuart Evans 5 years, 8 months ago

I used my quotes in reference to the 'Like' feature on facebook.

Stuart Evans 5 years, 8 months ago

It is NOT illegal to fail to salute, dehat, hand over heart, sing, or even acknowledge that the national anthem is playing or that a flag is waving. It is illegal to physically confront another person because they aren't adhering to your set of moral values.

That said, this is our country and the anthem and flag are an important part of it. take a moment and think about what those things represent and show a little respect next time you hear the song played. and if someone isn't kowtowing quite the way you would like, go call them a name and give them the bird.

Stuart Evans 5 years, 8 months ago

I can walk up to anyone I want in this country, extend my finger and verbally tell them exactly what I think. They have the right to turn and leave or stay, listen and respond. This goes for police, judges, military and even the president. While I probably wouldn't choose to do so for some of those folks, it's perfectly within my right as an American citizen. You point to the LAW that states otherwise.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Actually, I'm pretty sure that certain kinds of verbal activity are harassment.

independant1 5 years, 8 months ago

and only the judge can legally get back atcha for the gesture or verbal assault but it is your right.

M. Lindeman 5 years, 8 months ago

What a world of wimps we have become!! Walking up and politely placing your hand on the back of ones neck or back to get there attention is no way battery Period. Now he would have rolled his azz down the bleacher stairs, well then I would have agreed.

doccletus 5 years, 8 months ago

Per the alleged victim's statement to the "unbiased" media.

hail2oldku 5 years, 8 months ago

What I witnessed on Friday is more in line with the fireman's version than the "victim's" version of the events.

I would believe that the "victim" got embarrassed being called out in front of wife and friends. He certainly didn't show any indication of being injured.

At any rate, what an example both of these "gentlemen" set for their kids in the band. It's certainly going to be an interesting year if either of these folks is active in the band booster organization.

Carol Braden 5 years, 8 months ago

I was a witness. My family and my friends were sitting immediately behind Mr. Mandell. Mr. Clouse did grab Mr. Mandell on the back of his neck. Mr. Clouse did yell at Mr. Mandell. Mr. Clouse was hostile and confrontive. I felt the need to shield my 22 month old grandson from Mr. Clouse's anger.

Q: Who called Channel 6 news? Who called LJ World? Who sent Channel 5 from KC to my house to interview us? Not Mr. Mandell - I know that for a fact, not just from the net. Who is making such a big deal out of something that should have been resolved quietly and quickly, without a confrontation, with a quick apology for losing his temper, or by just paying the fine and being done with it?

Carol Braden 5 years, 8 months ago

Sorry - Keira, it wasn't me. I haven't been interviewed by anyone. I was at work when they came by.

Don't worry - I won't bother with anymore posts.

I have to work more tonight, then watch the meteor shower, then sleep, and tomorrow back to work.

This was entertaining for a while. But, now seems to be getting too much like the Jerry Springer Show for my tastes.

I hope you have a better day tomorrow. I hope everyone you see is nice to you and brings positive energy to you. If not, at least it's supposed to cool down on Saturday! That should help.

Take care and wish you all the best.

Stephen Roberts 5 years, 8 months ago

I wonder what the wife would have said if her husband would have done that to me. I would have felt my life was in danger and I would have defended myself to the utmost of my ability. The firefighter would have had a broken arm and I would have knocked him out.

Hey just because I am parnoid doesn't mean that everyone isn't out to get me.. hold on I need to check to see if those black helicopters are still flying above my house....

whatadrag 5 years, 8 months ago

They only drive dangerously on the way to a bar right? Police officers also speed.

Randy Leonard 5 years, 8 months ago

I am a veteran. I served in part to protect the rights of all people, even those who choose to be disrespectful or are just plain ignorant of the proper etiquette toward the flag, National Anthem or any other symbols of this country. No one has the right to force others to adhere to their view of patriotism. I feel it is just as disrespectful of my service and the service of all our armed forces when an individual or a group tries to force others to follow their standard of behavior. I wish everyone would follow proper etiquette for the flag and the National Anthem, but they have the freedom to act otherwise if they so choose.

yankeevet 5 years, 8 months ago

I agree with you on this..........also.......... Vietnam Vet 69-70 Desert Storm Vet 91 retired military...

kansasredlegs 5 years, 8 months ago

I agree. Don't forget to post this message in response to all Phelps' articles. As intolerant (ignorant) as the Phelpses are, we veterans know that by being tolerant of those exercising their freedom is exactly what veterans were / are putting it on the line for.

Also appropriate comment when KU undermines our traditions out of "respect" for veterans when it changes our "Border War" with Missouri to "Border Showdown". Now that's just downright disrespectful.

gatekeeper 5 years, 8 months ago

First sensible post. Thank you bear! I am from a military family and how you salute or don't salute the flag is no one else's business. There is no law dictating that you have to put you hand over your heart, take off your hat, etc...

calwt262 5 years, 8 months ago

Well put. I am also a veteran and agree with every word in your post.

Taxpayer 5 years, 8 months ago

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yankeevet 5 years, 8 months ago

Clouse needs too get out the checkbook; lawsuit coming...........

laser_jet1 5 years, 8 months ago

I happened to be there that afternoon but didnt see the altercation. Firefighter or not, it is a good thing Clouse didnt place his hand on me and/or get into my face because I would have kicked the living $%#* out of him. He obviously didnt learn enough on the playground in elementary school. Does he think that he can dictate what people should do or not do? He is an embaressment to the firefighters, the school and the community.

jayhawks911 5 years, 8 months ago

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jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Well, I guess all of that recognition didn't really help you to feel good enough about yourself, since you seem to need to put others down in order to do so.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

My mother died a couple of years ago, and I'm 48 years old.

But thanks for making my point so nicely.

Kelly Johnson 5 years, 8 months ago

Looks like neither one of these men set a good example in front of the high school crowd.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 8 months ago

The far right long ago claimed the flag and the national anthem as loyalty tests. Not as tests of loyalty to the country, but to a particular ideology, and to an extreme and unquestioning "patriotism" that worships militarism and practices intolerance of anyone they see as not "one of them."

Andrew Boyd 5 years, 8 months ago

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kenos 5 years, 8 months ago

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FiremanChris 5 years, 8 months ago

Actually, current Lawrence-Douglas County Fire-Medical starting pay for a firefighter is just around 30K per year. The Kansas Economic Data Summary for 2003 showed the per-capita income at $29,438. Now if you adjust that $29,438 for inflation over the last seven years you'd end up with about $34253.33. So starting firefighters actually make less than average per-capita income in Kansas. So they get paid less to take great risks to help everyone, including A-holes like you. Now what about that makes them D-Bags?

FiremanChris 5 years, 8 months ago

I stated the KEDS statistics were from 2003. I was using an old statistic from LDCFM's website, I apologize for the inaccuracy. I still feel I made the point that regardless of pay (which is still not a whole lot), firefighters sign up for a dangerous and often unpleasant job to indiscriminately help people and I don't see how that makes them "D-bags".

pizzapete 5 years, 8 months ago

I thought in america one is free to salute or no. I don't see anything wrong with sitting down and not participating.

Richard Heckler 5 years, 8 months ago

Standing up and/or not, removing a hat or leaving it on or not is not a sign of patriotism or not.

This was not the duty of Mr. Clouse to make that judgement call.

We do not live in America to have Patriotism dictated what it is or is not.

The people who pulled off the below questionable activities were always surrounded by American flags hmmmmmmmmmm:

  1. The Reagan/ Bush Savings and Loan Heist "There are several ways in which the Bush family plays into the Savings and Loan scandal, which involves not only many members of the Bush family but also many other politicians that are still in office and were part of the Bush Jr. administration. Jeb Bush, George Bush Sr., and his son Neil Bush have all been implicated in the Savings and Loan Scandal, which cost American tax payers over $1.4 TRILLION dollars (note that this was about one quarter of our national debt"). http://rationalrevolution0.tripod.com/war/bush_family_and_the_s.htm

  2. The Bush/Cheney Wall Street Bank Fraud on Consumers "And, yes, substantial fraud was involved. For example, mortgage companies and banks used deceit to get people to take on mortgages when there was no possibility that the borrowers would be able to meet the payments. Not only was this fraud, but this fraud depended on government authorities ignoring their regulatory responsibilities." http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2009/0709macewan.html

  3. Only 3 major Financial Institutions Were at Risk In Spite of What Were Told ? "There were just a handful of institutions that were terribly weakened. AIG the insurer, Bank of America, Citigroup, those three were clearly in very weakened form. So, many of the other big banks were not. http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/10/good_billions_after_bad_one_year

Kyle Reed 5 years, 8 months ago

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jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Well, now you're showing your true colors.

You're just a bully.

It's not up to you to decide who "deserves" an opinion.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Why on earth would anyone want to meet you in person?

You're arrogant and aggressive, and show little understanding of the principles on which this country was founded.

Then you wrap that all up in "patriotism" and suggest that anyone who doesn't fight in wars has no legitimate opinion.

nonbeliverofprint 5 years, 8 months ago

"Clouse said he put his hand on the back of his neck to get Mandell’s attention.

“What I said was, ‘Excuse me, sir, around here when the national anthem plays, you remove your hat. Show some respect,’” Clouse said."

What I see is two different people with 2 different stories. Without proof no one knows which one is telling the truth. Why is it every person commenting thinks that the firefighter is the one telling the lie.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

“The guy behind me said this is not the time or the place,” Clouse said. “It was a 30-second conversation. I didn’t smack him. I didn’t hit him at all.”

Anyone who volunteers that kind of information is the first guy to throw a punch.

lori 5 years, 8 months ago

Because he's wrong. You don't have to remove your hat. And you certainly don't initiate a conversation with a stranger by touching them from behind. Where is Mr. Clouse from, that you get someone's attention by placing your hand on their neck?!

Why could he not have approached him from the front, indicated with a nod or a gesture that the Mr. Mandell still was wearing his hat, and said something a little less aggressive? His stated comment to Mr. Mandell wasn't exactly polite or nonaggressive, and the touching/grabbing from behind that preceded it certainly makes it even more so. I certainly would have felt threatened if a strange man put his hand on my neck from behind and told me "Excuse me, but around here when the national anthem plays, you remove your hat. Show some respect."

pace 5 years, 8 months ago

Actually, Clause never said he didn't grab the guy by the neck, nor does he address the "littl" shove. Clause said "he didn't smack or hit the guy. I think the fire fighter had no business to do his little show. He could write a letter to the editor about the issue but no he had an idea of how someone should act and he wanted to make them do it. His opinion was sound, his act was criminal. If he came up behind me and grabbed my neck , even if he just meant it friendly, I don't know him. That is just creepy behavior. I don't want strangers grabbing people and then explain how pure their intentions were. He should keep his hands off others.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

I hate to break it to our fine firefighter, but he does not have the right to tell anyone they must do anything. In addition it does not matter how one places their hands on another if the recieving party complains it is battery under the law.

AMERICA!

lori 5 years, 8 months ago

Firefighters are not d-bags, RATM, most of them are awesome people, and their jobs are difficult and dangerous.

However, as a firefighter, I'm sure Mr. Clouse has received training on how to interact with people in stressful situations, and so he would know that approaching a stranger from behind and touching them (whether he laid a friendly hand on his neck, or grabbed him harshly) is NOT acceptable. If I were touched or grabbed from behind by a stranger, my first reaction would not be nice. Whether his intensions were good or not, and whether he was gentle and calm or rough and abrasive in his treatment of Mr. Mandell, he was in the wrong and should have known better.

kansasredlegs 5 years, 8 months ago

LJW: Thanks for the comedic relief this morning. btw:

Did the description as set forth by the "victim" remind anyone else of the incident where Dennis Rodman kicked (barely touched him) the sideline photographer in the thigh who then then had to be hauled away on a gurney wearing a neckbrace. Also, reminded me of when Roy, of Siegfried and Roy, was snatched up by the tiger and shook like a ragdoll.

"Alleged Victim" - get a life. Just let this go away,. Haven't you emasculated yourself enough by calling the police in the first place, but to actually press charges for the incident makes me embarrassed for you. I guess some people have to get justice for being picked on in high school at some point in life. Just call municipal court and tell them you don't want to pursue such nonsense.

hail2oldku 5 years, 8 months ago

Maybe the "victim" watched too much World Cup Soccer. You'd think some of those guys were shot with a high-powered rifle the way they hit the ground at the slightest bump.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

So the firefighter's bullying is ok with you, I guess.

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

"Let me guess, you got in during the Clinton's under the "Don't ask don't tell" policy."

Really? Really? I want so badly to rip you with a Julia Sugarbaker-worthy rant for this, but having read your comments all day, I know it would do no good.

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

What? What facts are necessary here? You made a really bigoted, anti-gay remark. So I pointed it out. The rant I want to spew is about that remark, how hateful it is to use homosexuality as an insult. It's got nothing to do with any of the rest of this whole, wacky thread.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Wow.

And you actually think that others are the ones bullying you?

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Please cite where in the Constitution it requires any American citizen to act in a certain way when certain music is playing.

Our system was founded on a belief in individual freedom.

It is not "intolerant" to keep one's hat on - it is intolerant to insist that someone remove it.

Taxpayer 5 years, 8 months ago

In 2006 the Lawrence Fire Department had a Battalion Chief forced to resign from his position and retire for putting his hands on someone. Firefighter Clouse apparently didn't pay attention to this and the consequences that resulted.

Practicality 5 years, 8 months ago

Firefighter Clouse was not operating as a firefighter when the incident took place. He was just another citizen at his kids event.

inatux 5 years, 8 months ago

"I thought in america one is free to salute or no. I don't see anything wrong with sitting down and not participating." pizzapete

I'll second that.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 8 months ago

"That is where culture begins and laws end."

Unless it's a clear case of self-defense, punching someone in the face is always illegal.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 8 months ago

"Yep it’s always illegal but if you go around randomly insulting people or generally acting like an #ss"

So you're saying that Mandell would have been justified in punching Clouse in the face.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

If you can't deal with being offended in another way than violence, you will likely wind up in jail someday, and rightly so.

Practicality 5 years, 8 months ago

The other day I was in the grocery store when an old woman grabbed my arm and asked me if I would get an item off of the top shelf for her. Should I have had her arrested for battery too?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 8 months ago

Did she intend to harm or offend you? Clearly, she did not, so the answer is "no."

Practicality 5 years, 8 months ago

How do you know that bozo, couldn't I make the claim she was physically trying to get my attenetion in a crowded atmosphere to do something I didn't want to do and therfore it was battery. She had a strong grip on my arm.

Just for the sake of argument because of course I retrieved the item for her.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 8 months ago

I'll grant that there are probably "gray" situations where contact may or may not constitute battery.

But not in either of these situations.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

Yeah well, One time at band camp... Nevermind.

pfunk81 5 years, 8 months ago

Most people wouldn't punch an obviously insane lady.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

Eveeryone has the right to go to a school event without be accousted by a flag toten fruit loop. If that guy whould have come up to me lke that, I would have thrown him off the damned bleechers. BTW whats the orgin of the name Clouse?

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

yeah well Daniel Von Clouse is not Miss Manners either. He should be suspended pending court outcome & when convicted terminated from his city position.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Again, where in the Constitution does it state we are required to remove our hats while a certain song is playing?

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Unfortunately, I think that keira is absolutely serious.

Andrew Boyd 5 years, 8 months ago

i am just wondering when the band event at free state became such heated affair. as an alumni of the marching firebirds. those friday night performances after two weeks of camp where always fun and exciting times. the parents where always so happy and excited to see what we had done. its sad that things in this day have come to this.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

It was the fireman who diverted attention from the game.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Given the tone of your posts, I think any reasonable person would be disinclined to meet you in person.

Clouse didn't show "guts" by trying to tell someone else what to do, he showed arrogance and intolerance.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

You're the obvious bully here.

I haven't called you any names.

You, on the other hand, have engaged in name-calling and derogatory comments about many.

Katara 5 years, 8 months ago

keira (anonymous) replies… As far as 'assumptions' go... I may make them, but you are still the 'ASS' of most of them. August 12, 2010 at 8:51 p.m. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm certain this qualifies as name calling. Wouldn't you agree?

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Are you serious?

You have called vertigo the "jockstrap for the troops" several times, and said he had no balls of his own.

This from one member of the armed forces to another.

You have also implied that people are living in their parents' basements, using blow-up dolls, etc.

I wonder - do you by any chance suffer from PTSD?

rickey_d 5 years, 8 months ago

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jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

So you'd rather we have more brawling at sports events.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

Perhaps Mr. Mandall is a more civilized person than Mr. Clouse. I personally think that parents should be able to attend a band event without preparing for the heavyweight championship. I would have knocked cluse clean out myself.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

You're just a regular bully, aren't you?

I hope you get into plenty of fights, and wind up in jail for assault and battery.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

Being homophobic isn't very civilized either. Especially when not even valid.

uncleandyt 5 years, 8 months ago

The couch is nearly tied to the top of the car?

werekoala 5 years, 8 months ago

I'm really interested to see what the guy's doctor found... I'm guessing the only thing really hurt was his pride.

Of course it's not okay to touch people with the intention to hurt them. But it's really not clear that's what happened. And who here has never touched a stranger to get their attention? Especially in a loud environment?

Guess we all better be locked up too!

ebyrdstarr 5 years, 8 months ago

I'd be more inclined to say it's not clear what happened if Clouse had grabbed him by the arm. But the neck? Who grabs someone by the neck just to get that person's attention? I'm pretty sure if a stranger grabbed me by the neck just so he could talk to me, I would feel I had been touched in a rude, insulting, and/or angry manner.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Again, it's not guts, it's arrogance and aggression.

pace 5 years, 8 months ago

We all have done this? I have never grabbed someone by the neck to get their attention in my life, nor have most people I know. I have lightly placed my hand on a shoulder but not to tell them my political opinion but to warn them that I was standing behind them or that I need to pass through the crowd. I would try speaking first. You mean you regularly come up behind people you don't know and grab them by the neck?. You are lucky that you haven't met a concealed carry person. It is not ok to touch people especially if it is a stranger. This was not like shaking hands. This was stupid.

Practicality 5 years, 8 months ago

Kansas Statute 21-3412. Battery.

(a) Battery is:

(1) Intentionally or recklessly causing bodily harm to another person; or

(2) intentionally causing physical contact with another person when done in a rude, insulting or angry manner.

(b) Battery is a class B person misdemeanor.

pace 5 years, 8 months ago

I knew a preacher that would physically beat his kids if they voiced questions or remarks that were against his god. He extended his god to how god wanted his wife to clean house and he had to beat her too. He only wanted them to do want he knew was right. He was a control freak batterer. This fire fighter has lost his compass if he thinks grabbing people from the back to make them mind his opinion is righteous behavior. Just another excuse to control, sometimes the excuse is alcohol, sometimes, god, sometimes country, sometimes it is because he likes bullying. I wonder what he does to people in private if they don't agree with him. The guy sounds like a thug.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

II agree he is clearly a control freak. Why is this in municpal court? Shouldn't battery be in district court? Clouse should be out of there for sure,. City employees should conduct themselves in a appropriate manner round the clock.

LA_Ex 5 years, 8 months ago

Why should a city employee conduct themselves any differently than someone else while not at work? Do you really hold the guy that picks up your trash or the cashier at the pool to a higher standard than then teller at your bank, the server at your local restaurant, or yourself (assuming you're not a city employee).

If anyone has a violence problem, it seems to be you. Half of your posts in this section mention throwing the guy off the bleachers or knocking him out.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

you might want to investigate the standard code of conduct for employees of municipalities, school districts, county employees etc.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

Public servents as a general rule may not have any convictions for battery against another bacause they work with the public. Not my personal interpetation at all it is just the way it is.

kstrekker 5 years, 8 months ago

Clouse's behavior was inexcusable. If he felt so strongly about the fellow not removing his hat, a simple, calm, verbal reminder would have sufficed. That having been said, while one hopes that all in attendance during the playing of the national anthem will show respect and the proper etiquette, it is important to note that not everyone is required to pay tribute. Members of some religious groups (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses) and citizens of other countries may sit quietly during the playing of the Star Spangled Banner as well as the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance.

anitliars 5 years, 8 months ago

Free speech. Mr. Clouse can speak all he wants - up to and including saying things with which others disagree. Had he merely told the man, "Hey, show some respect. Stand up and take your hat off." there's be no charges or debate. The line is drawn when speech becomes actions - or is inherently dangerous (e.g. Yelling "Fire" in a crowded public place is not protected speech). Of course, a "Please" is always a good tool...but not required.

I stand, take my hat off, cover my heart, sing along and have been known to cry during the playing of the National Anthem. That is my right. But there is no LAW that requires everyone to do it. In fact, there is a law that PROTECTS against requiring it. It's called the 1st Amendment!! A pretty important part of our country's values! Or at least, it used to be.

While I may not like it when the flag or military are disrepected, I LOVE it that I live in a country where even speech I find hateful or reprehensible is protected. As long as even those sorry exercises of the 1st amendment are protected, I know my rights are doing just fine. So God bless these canaries in the cage of freedom. As long as they chirp out their vile songs, I know I am free!

If the day ever comes that it is legal to batter or assault someone for exercising free speech rights (and yes, that includes failure to take off a hat or stand during the playing of the national anthem or the display of a flag), then we can all start planning for the demise of our Republic.

Mr. Clouse, be a mature adult. Step up. Set a good example. Admit you were wrong and should not have touched the other person, especially if you were angry. Take your lumps. Get a diversion if you can. And in the future, remember to always keep your hands off other people!

HaRDNoK9 5 years, 8 months ago

"The incident is a personal, and personnel matter". Really? Then why is it going to be "battled out in court"? Doesn't that make it a public matter? What a silly expenditure of resources. It is a personnel matter. The guy is a firefighter and represents the city. He should be reprimanded, apologize and leave it at that.

Most firemen are D-bags? WOW! has anyone ever seen what a car can do to a person when it crumples around a human body after striking something at 60 miles an hour? Or has anyone ever had to console a mother who is trapped in twisted steel while their deceased child is being extracted from a wreck before her eyes? Even when these people are not risking their lives, their business puts them in situations every day that most people are not emotionally equipped to handle. I don't think what was done to the guy was right, but it hardly qualifies as him being "shook like a dog". People can be so fragile.

HaRDNoK9 5 years, 8 months ago

@jstthefacts and Practicality, (below) Agreed on all points. Clouse should pay his ticket and apologize. He should be reprimanded by his employer, The FD.

A court battle is frivolous.

The City declined comment, saying it is a private matter when it is clearly not.

I am the judge? Okay. "Mr. Clouse, pay your ticket. Mr prosecutor, quit wasting time and money on this crap."

Practicality 5 years, 8 months ago

21-3412. Battery. (a) Battery is:

  (1)   Intentionally or recklessly causing bodily harm to another person; or

  (2)   intentionally causing physical contact with another person when done in a rude, insulting or angry manner.

  (b)   Battery is a class B person misdemeanor.

You be the judge.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

This on the thread woth wife's LTE.

"cammieb (anonymous) says… Mrs. Clouse,

Thank you for your thoughtful letter to the editor asking that an announcement be made prior to the National Anthem. This would indeed help to prompt many on the tradition of showing respect while our National Anthem is playing. However, I believe a more effective way to model respect would have been by politely asking Mr. Mandell to remove his hat.

My family and I are actively involved in Boy Scouts. At every scout meeting, at least weekly, our scouts raise the American Flag and we say the pledge of allegiance to the flag - while saluting the flag and with hats off. Periodically, scouts and/or leaders forget to take off their hats. We gently remind them and hats come off quickly. My own husband, our Scoutmaster, has periodically forgotten. This is definitely not a sign of disrespect for our country! Our oldest son is an Airman in the United States Air Force. We are very proud of him! He just forgot.

That is what happened last Friday night at the Free State Marching Band performance. Our family and friends were sitting directly behind the Mandells. We witnessed the altercation. Your husband was rude and loud. He did grab Mr. Mandell. I felt the need to shield my 22 month old grandson from the confrontation. My husband and our friend (who is a Master Sergeant with the US Army and an Iraq War Veteran) both felt the need to defend Mr. Mandell to avoid an even more volatile confrontation. They were good models for how to intervene in a hostile situation. Mr. Mandell was a good model for how to not engage the attacker and work through the proper authorities to handle further conflict. I heard Mr. Mandell say, "If they guy would have just apologized for getting out of control, I wouldn't have asked the officer to cite him". I think your husband refused to do that.

In conclusion, I would suggest the best method of prompting everyone in a crowd to show respect for our country is to act as good citizens by using kindness, understanding, and non-hostile communication. This works well for our scout troop. And when a mistake is made (lack of hat removal or over-reaction to common customs of respect), please apologize. We all make mistakes. "

August 12, 2010 at 11:46 a.m. permalinkreplysuggest removal

anitliars 5 years, 8 months ago

My guess is the prosecutor will use (a)(2). It's a class B person misdomeanor. You intentionally touch someone in a rude, insulting or angry manner.... You can get charged and you will probably lose if you take it to court.

Jayhawk4030 5 years, 8 months ago

First of all he didn't just place a hand on the back of his neck he grabbed his neck and held firmly while he yelled at the man for a good 30 seconds plus. How do I know this I was sitting right behind the situation. I guarantee if someone had grabbed you like he did the other guy there would have been more than words. Not to mention their little children sitting near and watching this incident.

bopro 5 years, 8 months ago

Fireman or not, patriotic or not, we are to not force our will on other people. it is not our right to Judge others (don't be hatein.)

beatrice 5 years, 8 months ago

Bully pretending to be patriotic, wrapping his aggression up in a flag. God bless America, and nowhere else!

Carol Braden 5 years, 8 months ago

I haven't read the above comments - there are way too many. I'm sure the topic: showing respect to our country while the National Anthem is being playing is a great subject for debate. However, I hope what is not being debated is volatile confrontation.

Our family and friends were sitting directly behind the Mandells. We witnessed the altercation. Mr. Clouse was rude and loud. He did grab Mr. Mandell. I felt the need to shield my 22 month old grandson from the confrontation. My husband and our friend (who is in the US Army and an Iraq War Veteran) both felt the need to defend Mr. Mandell to avoid an even more volatile confrontation. They were good models for how to intervene in a hostile situation. Mr. Mandell was a good model for how to not engage the attacker and work through the proper authorities to handle further conflict. I heard Mr. Mandell say, "If they guy would have just apologized for getting out of control, I wouldn't have asked the officer to cite him". I think Mr. Clouse refused to do that.

I would suggest the best method of prompting everyone in a crowd to show respect for our country is to act as good citizens by using kindness, understanding, and non-hostile communication. And when a mistake is made (lack of hat removal or over-reaction to common customs of respect), please apologize. We all make mistakes.

Olympics 5 years, 8 months ago

Here's the list that I've gotten so far... -Low flying aircraft. -Winds out of the north. -People repeatedly pointing out the obvious to you. -Coming down off a steroid cycle. -Kittens.

LA_Ex 5 years, 8 months ago

"As the spouse of a 2x OIF vet who served 2.5 years in the red zone of Iraq, it pisses me off when someone who knows someone lays claim to the vet's service."

That's pretty funny. You just pissed yourself off.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

Yeah well my dad spent time in military prison. Go Bless America!

Carol Braden 5 years, 8 months ago

Hi Keira - we have some things in common: I also use my real name to post on LJ World. My family is also from Osawatomie, Kansas. I'm not related to any firefighters, however. From reading the articles that came up with your name from the google search you suggested, your husband is a firefighter. Good for him - that is very hard and admirable work. My son is an MP with the Air Force and wants to be a police officer when he turns 21. He hasn't been to war, yet. My 2 best friend's husband's have. One of them was sitting behind Mr. Mandell that night. Are you friends with Mr. Clouse? I'm rambling on, because I find this all so funny! I'm sorry you are so upset about this. I mentioned my husband and my friend's husband because they helped to divert the situation in a peaceful way. I was very proud of them. I feel very bad for Mr. Clouse's son or daughter who will have to face the all his classmates at school after all this publicity. I know my teenager would be horrified to have this attention. Q: My daughter-in-law (who is married to my son who is in the Air Force) asked how did Mr. Clouse know that Mr. Mandell was a US citizen. Now wouldn't that have been embarrassing if his child in the band was a foreign exchange student and he was from a country where it is respectful to keep his hat on? Hmmm.....I hope this doesn't make you mad. I love Osawatomie! That's where my cousins live and my parents grave sites are. Please thank your husband for serving his country and fighting fires to help others!

equalaccessprivacy 5 years, 8 months ago

I have never lived in a city where people are so aggressive and presumptuous, and where such offensive cultural imperialism is viewed as being "helpful" and a Good Samaritian. People here show a scary lack of respect for decent social boundaries, including grabbing and inappropriately touching strangers.

Was told by a KU cop since there is no "intent" to be harassing in this they can't file charges. Brawn over brain wins the day, eh? Yeah, you know you are not being treated as a full human being when the cops think it's o.k. for strangers to terrorize you and molest you on the backward streets and quads of Lawrence.

Missouri is the only other place I've lived where people aggressively approach strangers, but even they are more advanced than Kansans, because many admit this could be taken the wrong way.

Self-flattering busybodies need to learn to mind their own business and realize it takes competence and insight to make a positive difference to this world, and strangers are often judged suspiciously in this regard by those they don't know. Gratitude isn't your birthright, people, especially when you go around wearing your bigotry like a virtue on your sleeves.

beatrice 5 years, 8 months ago

Writing a letter possibly trying to get the community on their side before any reactions, like charges or even firings, perhaps?

HaRDNoK9 5 years, 8 months ago

I can say without ego that I had a real misconception about the seriousness of a Class B personal misdemeanor. So I looked into it, and maybe a court battle is not so frivolous after all. I don't go around touching people that I feel like being rude or angry toward, but before today I might have, if I found myself in a situation I felt strongly about. It hasn't come up yet in my day to day life, now I'm sure it never will, and thank goodness. I would have been scratching my head for sure. It surprises me sometimes how humbling it can be to realize my own errors.

Matt Needham 5 years, 8 months ago

LJW should rename the comment section "Reader Hyperbole". Or maybe "Community Embarrassment". The police will have no problems determining if the law was broken without all the armchair detectives here. Sounds like there were plenty of witnesses.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Actually, the court will probably determine if the law was broken.

Beelzebub 5 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

CHKNLTL 5 years, 8 months ago

what kind of a wimp can't take a good neck squeezing? I guess we are in Lawrence.......

Hug_It_Out 5 years, 8 months ago

I usually stand, look directly at the flag, and block everything out around me as I listen to the music being played. It sounds like the firefighter was more focused on scanning the crowd than he was truly taking in the moment. Maybe he should get yelled at for not giving his full attention. It's like looking around during silent prayer at church to see who is bowing their heads. Aren't you just as "guilty"?? Eh well....

Jimo 5 years, 8 months ago

If some Emily Post vigilante gets touchy with me he'll be lucky if he doesn't lose his hand.

Luckily for Clouse, Mandell wasn't exercising his 2nd Amendment rights to protect his 1st Amendment rights or there'd be a want ad for a firefighter opening today.

Kyle Reed 5 years, 8 months ago

Clearly the censorship gods are awake this afternoon. God forbid you point out the lunacy of spammers that post the same links over and over. Your comment will be removed. However those same spammers spam away adding nothing to the conversation except useless, unrelated static and they are allowed to do it over and over and over without ever having their spam removed.

LJWorld comments section...where censorship reigns supreme.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

I guess someone is upset that the community isn't going to rally around the firefighter.

Kyle Reed 5 years, 8 months ago

Actually, no. My removed post was regarding merrill's copy and paste anti-Bush spamming. It had nothing to do with the firefighter or the wimp that called the police on him.

uncleandyt 5 years, 8 months ago

That stuff is not spam. Those are informative links. Look and learn, please

Kyle Reed 5 years, 8 months ago

They may have been informative the first 1000 times they were posted. They have long ago become spam.

estespark 5 years, 8 months ago

Anyone who rocks a camo t-shirt, a camo-billed hat with a moose on it, and Oakley'esque shades cannot be taken seriously.

RogueThrill 5 years, 8 months ago

So, we live in a world where a man assaults another man, in front of witnesses who have posted on this website, and people defend him? Awesome.

Welcome to the American Taliban.

mom_of_three 5 years, 8 months ago

Wonder what the firefighter would have done if the person in question was using their camera during the song, which I have witnessed?
I didn't think it was proper etiquette to do so, but its not like it was televised or attended by thousands of people.
I don't always put my hand over my heart, because sometimes I am holding things (kids, cameras, coats). Do people consider that wrong too?

RogueThrill 5 years, 8 months ago

You won't know until someone puts their hand around the back of your neck.

beatrice 5 years, 8 months ago

Once again, bad headline. He was cited for battery, but there was no argument! He just went up and grabbed somebody without a discussion or an argument. Just up and grabbed somebody out of the blue. He was cited for battery. "after the argument" indicates that there may have been a justifiable reason for the battery. There was none.

I don't know if he needs to lose his job over this, however. The proper response to the national anthem usually isn't involved in putting out fires. Some anger managment / control issue courses? Perhaps.

Alceste 5 years, 8 months ago

YO!

All you flag waving, respecting arm chair nothings': If the flag and people being paid to work for it (as in the ALL volunteer Armed Services) are all so important and you believe in what they do so much, here's an idea:

enlist yourself or have one of your off spring ENLIST and go serve as cannon fodder.

My money says that 9 out of 10 of ya will do a fall back on "....Let George do it.....".....

Some over the hill old man wants to go into the stands of a high school, kiddie band " sporting" event and take to task a "disrespectful" participant????: Funny how the guy doing the explaining, what with his oh so offended sense of propriety.....doesn't go over just as this heinous crime is occurring....and even funnier how he sneaks up on some guy's back.....WOOW......is that how Lawrence chooses to fight fires and is that kind of person we as a Community want working for OUR fire department? I don't think so.....Let this Rambo, flag waving patriot go get a real job.....my money says he can't do it......

BULLY.....that's all this story is about....being a bully.......

oh...and just to SHUT UP the bully pulpit....I'm a 2 tour combat Viet Nam vet, decorations and all.....including my framed BCD.....difference???? i was drafted.....i didn't ask to go nowhere.....except maybe the 7th Spirit.....

SirReal 5 years, 8 months ago

The fact that he harassed someone at a school function where he might have felt more safe doing it (family atmosphere, conservative values) goes to show how the man is a coward. I'd like to see him try something like this at a bar before a KU game or Royals game, or on Mass. St. before a parade or something. He'd get his ass handed to him if he put his hand on someone in a more public place in Lawrence. We're not all gun-toting rednecks here believe it or not.

SirReal 5 years, 8 months ago

p.s. I don't care If I have an Obama for Emperor t-shirt on or whatever. If anyone puts there hand on my neck it's on.....

BruceWayne 5 years, 8 months ago

very disappointed in Clouse...even more in the "men" sitting around that did nothing. I am all for his immediate termination from LFD.

JoRight 5 years, 8 months ago

Can't agree more.

If I was brought up on battery charges, you bet I would be out of a job. . .& I don't even hold a job as "highly regarded" as a fireman.

A cop brought up on battery charges wouldn't fly, I don't know why this would.

If he's found guilty, then he should be out of a job.

iseedumbpeople 5 years, 8 months ago

Why should what he does off duty have anything to do with what he does for a job.

kansasfire911 5 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Wow, that's offensive in so many different ways!

So, you condone battery and the right of this fireman to compel another citizen to do something just because he thinks they should.

Why do you hate freedom?

skinny 5 years, 8 months ago

Wow, the LJWorld actually printed the name of a VICTIM in the paper!! Boy, they even printed the name of the suspect too, amazing!

About time!

Wonder if they printed the suspects name before he was charged because he was a firemen? Bet?

pizzapete 5 years, 8 months ago

What a great country we have, where you have to be reminded how great it is everywhere you go. And why would anyone care if someone else disagreed with the anthem and didn't want to stand, take their hat off, and bow down to it.
In true american diplomatic fasion, mr patriot grabs someones throat and yells at them to do it like us or else. Yea, our vets must be proud. I would bet in Iraq they used to have henchmen in the stands at big events to see that everyone took off their hats, too.

Deja Coffin 5 years, 8 months ago

Just goes to show there are two sides to every story and that somewhere in the middle is probably where you'll find the truth. I see both people's side and hope that this can be settled outside of court because really, if this is your biggest issue in your life, you've got a pretty decent life.

corduroypants 5 years, 8 months ago

Wow. Ted Nugent Jr. needs to mind his own business.

Debra Schmidt 5 years, 8 months ago

This story is just stupid - more importantly, the Firefighter is stupid. No one has a right to touch another human being in an inappropriate manner. I am sure the the Firefigher's boss and the City of Lawrence are very embarrassed. I hope the Firefigher has more professional skills on the job than he displays off the job. What an embarrassment to the department.

Alceste 5 years, 8 months ago

ummmm.....Mr. Clouse.....Sieg Heil? Is that why I was legally kidnapped in 1970 and then spent 2 of the best years of my life "defending" in Viet Nam? Ok....I was a dope and signed up on my own for the 2nd.....but is that why Mr. Clouse....so some insulated, self-appointed and annoited "citizen" can tell me yet again to stand at attention AND place my hand somewhere where said someone has determined is THE right place? I'm baffled.

Elvis Costello speaks to what is written and implied by Mr. Clouse above in his song "Night Rally":

I would send out for assistance but there's someone on the signal wire And the corporation logo is flashing on and off in the sky They're putting all your names in the forbidden book I know what they're doing but I don't want to look

You think they're so dumb, you think they're so funny Wait until they've got you running to the Night rally, night rally, night rally

Everybody's singing with their hand on their heart About deeds done in the darkest hours That's just the sort of catchy little melody To get you singing in the showers

Oh, I know that I'm ungrateful I've got it lying on a plate And I'm not buying my share of souvenirs You can stand to attention You can pray to your uncle Only get that chicken out of here Everyone gets armbands and 3-D glasses Some are in the back room And they're taking those night classes

You think they're so dumb, you think they're so funny Wait until they've got you running to the Night rally, night rally, night rally

About "...deeds done in the darkest hours...." indeed.....I've lost my armband and 3-D glasses......HELP!

del888 5 years, 8 months ago

Salute the flag or I will whack you! Is this America?

blindrabbit 5 years, 8 months ago

Laughed about the "Ted Nugent., Jr." comment. Ted is a poor spokesman for patriotism; don't believe me, just read about his squirming to avoid the draft during Viet-Nam. Ted of course denies all of this; he feels it is more sporting to shoot defenseless animals and avoid exposing himself to the same possibilities. He makes my skin crawl with his phoniness. By the way, I am not opposed to hunting

laser_jet1 5 years, 8 months ago

I wonder if the guy finally removed his hat? I wouldnt have! Also wondering what would have happened if the guy with that hat on was asian, muslim, african-american or even gay? Then it would be a race or sexual orientation issue. My point is that any individual that works in the capacity of helping or saving the public should always respect the freedom of speech and the U.S. Constitution. Someone with anger issues should not be behind the wheel of a fire truck or engaging in entering someone elses private property. How can someone with a personality like his function in society (especially a City like Lawrence with different backgrounds and beliefs). The Chief should request his resignation or at the very least anger management with leave without pay. What a disgraceful act by Mr. Clouse.

BlackVelvet 5 years, 8 months ago

Utterly fantastick....if the fireman were accused of MURDER, or if the fireman was not a city employee, there would be dozens on here stating that he is innocent until proven guilty......don't seem to see much of that sentiment here for this. I wonder why.

laser_jet1 5 years, 8 months ago

There is a big difference. The guy with the hat on had every right to be wearing his hat regardless of what song was playing! It doesnt matter what Mr. Clouses occupation is...it is more of an embaressment because he is paid by the taxpayer and is suppose to be a role model.

BlackVelvet 5 years, 8 months ago

And has Mr. Clouse BEEN CONVICTED of a crime yet? My point being where are all the "innocent until proven guilty" folks? Anyone??

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

I agree that the court will decide the issue.

However, Mr. Clouse himself clearly states that he thinks he has the right to tell other people what to do, even though he has no legal right to do so in this instance.

johnny585 5 years, 8 months ago

So many well meaning voices expressing themselves so freely in this babble-onian forum...We're all riding on the same bus, and we've all missed our stops because we're so busy assuring each other that ours is the only true and worthy commentary... So please allow me a moment of self-indulgence in this not so humble folly... The playing of the national anthem at a public event does not require by any law or edict that all those within its audible range stand or remove their hats for any reason...However, when removal of the hat is a customary practice of the majority of those gathered, the hat's temporary removal should not be too much of a challenge. Nonetheless, should those who may possibly be wearing a hat fail to remove the hat, by choice or otherwise, there is absolutely no justification for any other attendee(s) to impose their disapproval or overly righteous indignation through verbal abuse or physical aggression...both of which are the epitome of that which is unAmerican to its very core...

Kyle Reed 5 years, 8 months ago

Congrats on crossing the line there vertigo. These forums have pretty strict rules about outting someone who is on here anonymously. Specifically you aren't to do it. Your comments will be deleted and depending on how much of an a**hole they think you were about it they could easily decide to ban your ID.

laughingatallofu 5 years, 8 months ago

Wow. Jerry Springer lives on in the LJW! And Kiera has to have set the record for the most posts by a single poster in one thread. Now that everyone has called everyone else a name, maybe we could see if this could be discussed in posts of 140 characters or less. Highly entertaining.

jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

I agree they seem to have crossed some sort of line here.

But I really don't think the intent was to cause anyone to come harm your family, and I certainly hope that doesn't happen.

The fact is, though, that a lot of information is available on the internet, and when you make a big deal out of being open about who you are, and making certain claims, you shouldn't be that surprised if some of that information comes out.

Amy Heeter 5 years, 8 months ago

After all this Daniel Clouse is still wrong. It was not then nor is it anyone's place now to tell another how to be patriotic or if they should be. There is no draft so anyone who serves has or is doing so out of choice.

I could care less if Mr. Mandall took his hat off, stood or picked his nose during the anthem. Being a firefighter, a soldier or even a police officer does not mean a person is above the law. Clouse will get his day in court; I don't think it will go as he thinks but he will have it just the same. Because that is the freedom everyone fights for, wether they suit up for Uncle Sam, chain themselves to stationary objects or simply stand in front of the court house protesting war on Saturday mornings. We get what we pay for and here in America it is with the blood of our people and at the expense of all

. A couple weeks ago I was driving down 23rd street. A veteran who had lost his legs was walking on his replacement limbs in the street. A truck was moving slowly behind him to protect him from traffic. I was in a bit of a hurry but once I saw what was holding traffic up complied. Not because I support war, not because I believe his loss of legs was worth it, but because he( the walker) believes those things to be true. I could have gone all Jane Fonda on him. I feel strongly in opposition to war. I don't approve of how our country treats veterans when they return home. I feel that while our country is in a finacial crisis it is wrong people are lining up to get food in 100 degree temps while banks are getting handouts.

That's America, That's the freedom that has been fought for time and again. The freedom to flip the bird to out flag is the same freedom Mr. Clouse will have when he fights his battery charge in court. The same freedom that allows Kiera to argue in support of Clouse is the same freedom that allows others to search her name on the net. There is always a price to freedom; exercise it without condition or don't get off the damned porch.

wmathews 5 years, 8 months ago

I'm freezing comments on this thread. I think everyone has had enough time to make their points, and comments have become malicious from both angles.

Whitney Mathews Online Editor

Commenting has been disabled for this item.