Archive for Friday, October 5, 2007
Name change sought for holiday, but mayor says it’s up to legislators
Demonstration scheduled for Monday
From right, Haskell Indian Nations University junior Shereena Baker, Fortuna, Calif., of the Southern Ute and Karuk tribes; senior Margaret Stevens, Oneida, Wisconsin, of the Oneida tribe; and senior Willow Bonga, Portland, Ore., of the Quinault tribe, are among members of Haskell's American Indian Studies Club who have asked Lawrence city commissioners to change the name of Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day. The students, pictured Wednesday at Haskell, are planning a noon march on Monday from the South Park gazebo to the Haskell campus to bring attention to the issue.
October 5, 2007
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Local students say Columbus Day shouldn't just be about Christopher Columbus
A group of students at Haskell Indian Nations University are trying to convince Lawrence city leaders that Monday's holiday should be about much more. Enlarge video
On the street
Do you think we should celebrate Columbus Day?
I think it’s pretty ridiculous at this point, knowing what we know about him.
Keep the day. Dump the Columbus.
That's long been the rallying cry at Haskell Indian Nations University each year as Columbus Day - which is Monday - approaches.
But now, Haskell students want city commissioners to also shine a spotlight on the subject. Members of Haskell's American Indian Studies Club have asked city commissioners to proclaim Monday as Indigenous Peoples Day, instead of celebrating it as Columbus Day.
"It (the holiday) is in essence celebrating our genocide instead of celebrating our survival," said Willow Bonga, a Haskell student and club member. "It was a time when it decimated our populations and brought the natives to the ground. It only was by our pure strength that we were able to rise up and still be in existence today."
City leaders, though, aren't making plans to change the name. Mayor Sue Hack said she respects the students' views, but she said it is an issue probably better handled by state legislators.
"I think you are exactly right about the history," Hack told students at Tuesday's City Commission meeting. "But our policy has been to not use proclamations to make a political stand or do something that the state should change."
City Commissioner Boog Highberger, though, said he was in favor of adopting a proclamation declaring it Indigenous Peoples Day. The move wouldn't be unprecedented. In 1992, the city declared it American Indian Day, but the tradition didn't stick.
"I think the history of what happened to native people is a story that doesn't get told well enough," Highberger said. "I know how those of us in Lawrence would feel if someone were celebrating William Quantrill Day."
Margaret Stevens, a Haskell senior and secretary of the American Indian club, said students are trying not to take too negative of a tone in calling for the name change. But some historians have said Columbus and his followers were responsible for millions of American Indian deaths through conflict and disease that they brought from Europe.
"We understand that he was trying to make a better place for his people, but in doing so he did commit one of the greatest acts of genocide in history," Stevens said. "That is not always taught in schools."
City commissioners aren't expected to take any more action on the students' request. Commissioners don't meet again until Tuesday, one day after Columbus Day.
Haskell students are planning a demonstration and march on Monday to draw attention to the name change issue. The event will begin at noon Monday at the South Park Gazebo, and will involve a march to the Haskell campus. The event will include several speakers and a potluck lunch.
More like this
- Protesters: Indigenous peoples, not Columbus, should be celebrated on holiday 102 comments / October 13, 2008
- HASKELL FOCUSES ON FUTURE, NOT COLUMBUS DAY LEGACY October 9, 1994
- Parade protests Columbus Day 24 comments / October 8, 2007
- COLUMBUS TO SHARE DAY WITH INDIANS October 6, 1992
- Calling out Columbus Day 16 comments / October 9, 2007
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5 October 2007
at 6:18 a.m.
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baby_girl (Anonymous) says…
Why single out a single race? There's black history month, now people want indigenous peoples day? I, too, have native blood in my veins, but also caucasian. What about the caucasian side of me? What about the african american side of my children? When will the race war ever end? Sadly, i see no end in sight.
5 October 2007
at 7:58 a.m.
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BuddhaDude (Anonymous) says…
Call it North America Day
5 October 2007
at 8:09 a.m.
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KS (Anonymous) says…
Some people have too much time on their hands. Get over it and get on with life. The day is in honor of Columbus. If they want their day, lobby for one in addition. That is just what we need. Another Federal holiday.
5 October 2007
at 8:19 a.m.
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Godot (Anonymous) says…
“”I think you are exactly right about the history,” Hack told students at Tuesday's City Commission meeting. “But our policy has been to not use proclamations to make a political stand or do something that the state should change.”
roflmao!!!
What about the time our city condemned the Patriot Act and opted out of enforcing it? What about the domestic partner registry? What about not arresting people for marijuana possession in order to get around the Federal rules about student loans and drug convictions?
You guys set the precedence, get ready for the onslaught of special interest requests.
5 October 2007
at 8:19 a.m.
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BuddhaDude (Anonymous) says…
I work for the Feds. Maybe we can have a Cherokee Day, Crook Day, Creek Day, Kiowa Day, Cheyenne Day, etc. The more days off, all the better for me.
5 October 2007
at 8:30 a.m.
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TheYetiSpeaks (Anonymous) says…
I could not agree more. Columbus was a tyrant and a murderer and is unworthy of his own holiday.
5 October 2007
at 8:35 a.m.
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Godot (Anonymous) says…
Ummm, Yeti, how was Columbus a tyrant?
5 October 2007
at 8:48 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Amerigo Vespucci Day!
5 October 2007
at 8:52 a.m.
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TheYetiSpeaks (Anonymous) says…
Godot-
When Columbus landed in Hispaniola, he quickly installed himself as governor and ruler. Among his first acts were to enslave the indigenous men and divvy out the women to keep for his men to rape. Overall, much of the indigenous population of the island was killed, raped, or enslaved, including the children. His wickedness did not stop there, however, as it was also documented that he exposed his own men to harsh and extravagant punishments for nothing more than his own amusement.
Here is a link to a recent article about found Spanish documents: http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/artic…
5 October 2007
at 9:04 a.m.
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Katie180 (Anonymous) says…
I grew up in South Dakota where it is Native American Day. I still can't remember that it is Columbus day even though I haven't lived there for several years.
5 October 2007
at 9:06 a.m.
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Tychoman (Anonymous) says…
Columbus didn't do anything worthy of honor. His intentions certainly weren't honorable.
5 October 2007
at 9:06 a.m.
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Raider (Anonymous) says…
Every year it's the same BS out of these people. Get over it. It's not about you. The holiday is to celebrate the discovery of the New World by the Europeans. I suppose next they will want to go after Thanksgiving?
5 October 2007
at 9:20 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Raider,
Sure, then let Europeans celebrate Columbus Day and not let it be on the calendar. What is there to celebrate for the entire nation when it means that he came to exploit and not give?
Why Black Pride Day? Cos Whites already have a lot of pride. Look at the top billionaires in this country, how many other races can you find? Asians didn't ask for an Asian Pride Day either. Only if MLK wasn't assasinated, I think Black and White will be happier today. Blame on the guy who killed MLK!
5 October 2007
at 9:26 a.m.
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Godot (Anonymous) says…
Thanks, Yeti.
5 October 2007
at 9:32 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
5 October 2007
at 9:34 a.m.
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toefungus (Anonymous) says…
If it was not Columbus, it would have been someone else. At vastly superior force encountered a weaker force and prevailed. This continuing progress is the nature of human beings.
5 October 2007
at 9:34 a.m.
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Bubbles (Anonymous) says…
The indigenous peoples prior to and after Columbus killed each other frequently. Some used to eat each other. Sitting Bull used to whip the crap out of his indgenous brothers and sisters.
Those are reasons to celebrate?
5 October 2007
at 9:47 a.m.
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Ceallach (Anonymous) says…
in*dig*e*nous /Én&*&char114&*& dÉdÊ'ÉnÉs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-dij-uh-nuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective
1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa.
******************
Have they changed the schoolbooks again? How does *indigenous* apply to First Nations people?
Native American is also not appropriate, my Irish father originated in America, but his ancestry was not from the first nations of people to establish themselves on this continent. Being part Cherokee I think a day to celebrate the survival of all First Nations tribes. They are here in spite of the onslaught of Western European immigrants. Also, you might recall, the local tribes were friendly to the first few waves of Europeans, and you can see how that worked out for them. But the tribes need to seek a day set aside for them, not Xing out Columbus Day and writing in First Nations Day. It would be far too easy for dissenters to spend the whole day mumbling, “It will always be Columbus Day to me.”
5 October 2007
at 9:51 a.m.
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TheYetiSpeaks (Anonymous) says…
“Sitting Bull used to whip the crap out of his indigenous brothers and sisters.”
Yeah, but the point is there's no Sitting Bull day. I'm not sure it should be called indigenous people day either, but surely there is something else worthy of a holiday. Just rename it after something else so our government-working brethren dont lose out on a non-work day.
5 October 2007
at 9:59 a.m.
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JJE007 (Anonymous) says…
Rape and pillage day is an utterly movable feast. Also known as Homo Sapien Day, it is celebrated at each sunrise. Ancient peoples, who called themselves “the people”, originated this day when they made contact with another peoples, who by coincidence called themselves “the people”. There is apparently only room for one peoples on earth. This was immediately recognized by “the people” but not recognized by “the people” and so “the people” were put to death and “good use” by “the people”. There are still many unrecognized peoples in the world of “the people” but they are all put to death or “good use” and, of course, never allowed to have a day to themselves. So it is written…
5 October 2007
at 9:59 a.m.
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kansas778 (Anonymous) says…
Captain Obvious, the peoples of the new world weren't savages, that is a derogatory term. They were less technologically advanced in SOME areas, but were ahead of their european counterparts in others, particularly agriculture. Their civilization was just as complex and their culture just as developed; it was different, not less civilized.
Anyways, no Columbus was not a saint. Today it seems like historians want to drag down any person of significance from the past by pointing out their faults and misdeeds. We are not recognizing Columbus the person, but the achievement that set off a chain of events that lead to the founding of our country.
5 October 2007
at 10 a.m.
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imastinker (Anonymous) says…
This town is hilarious. THis is so much better than TV. Who can even make that stuff up?
5 October 2007
at 10:01 a.m.
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MrMister (Anonymous) says…
No one gets Columbus day off anymore except HINU. I don't think Columbus was a very good person, but as they say, history is written by the winner. It makes no difference how they won, they won so the record reflects that. As stated by others, the holiday isn't as much about Columbus as it is about the discovery of the “New World”. I would have no problem with it being called New World Day. Of course the Post Office would have to close since it would no longer be a politically incorrect holiday.
5 October 2007
at 10:01 a.m.
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mom_of_three (Anonymous) says…
I don't celebrate Columbus day, because of what he did to the native people of this country.
Yes, he “discovered” a new world, but what he did with it was appalling.
I once worked for a company that “celebrated” Columbus Day, but made us work for Veterans Day. It was totally backwards in my book.
5 October 2007
at 10:03 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Well, see there you guys go again! “His intentions were not honourable!”: In the context of his time, his intentions were the best. We cannot view history in light of modern ethics and mores as to do so distorts that history and gives us a very false view of events and their causes.
Columbus; the Latinised name of Cristoforo Colombo, no more “discovered” America than I did. The North American mainland had been part of a trade route for quite some time before Chris even thought of conning Ferdy and Isabella out of the boats and funding.
Phonecians may well have traded with the Americas and the oral and written traditions of the Irish talk of the land beyond the sea.
There is a substantial body of evidence that Black Africans were trading with Native Americans in North, Central and South America well before the time of Columbus.
The Vikings made inroads onto the mainland as early as 800-9 A.D.
On the West Coast, there is evidence of Chinese, Japanese and others from across the Pacific having landed.
Recent arcaheological finds have also revealed that massive epeidemics occurred among the indigenous peoples before the arrival of Columbus as well.
It should be remembered that the diseases and maladies brought to the Americas were not borught by design as the causes of such illnesses were not even vaguely understood at the time and the fact that the Indigenous Peoples had little or no immunity to those diseases is really no one's fault; falls into the category of “Biosolids happen.”
cont'd:
5 October 2007
at 10:04 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
cont'd:
It should also be remembered that the Native Americans were not the peace loving/in tune with nature/respectful of the environment types; ideas promoted by those who would distort and falsify history.
They would kill hundreds of bison at a time at places called “buffalo jumps”; places to which the bison would be herded and driven off cliffs by the dozens.
Internecene and inter-tribal warfare was a way of life in the Nations and the notion of “The Peace Loving Native American” is so much bunk.
The indigenous peoples of the Americas were the victims of superior technology, to and extent superior number of the just the right kind of soldiers and sailors and to a certain extent victims of their won superstitons; witness the massacre of 5-7000 Inca by fewer than 200 Spaniards led by Pizzaro in the 1530s. Armed with matchlocks which cannot be reloaded fast enough to kill that many people in such a shrot time, Pizzaro and his samll band killed mostly with spears and edged weapons. Superstiton contributed to this event as simple numbers tell you that Pizzaro's force was greatly outnumbered and could have been physically overwhelmed and killed by the Inca who instead feared the Europeans as gods. Plainly put, the Inca allowed their own slaughter because they believed that the Euros were supernatural in character and in point of historic facta, were killing each other to try to make better deals with Pizzaro & Co.
Now, none of this goes to deprecate or diminish the plight of the natives after the en masse arrival of the Europeans but we must also look at things the way that they really were, not as we would have them be.
5 October 2007
at 10:07 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“This was immediately recognized by “the people” but not recognized by “the people” and so “the people” were put to death and “good use” by “the people”.”
Marklar?
5 October 2007
at 10:17 a.m.
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mojorrisin1 (Anonymous) says…
the replies are the same as last year, and to anyone who is involved with the change initiative, remember this. There will always be apathetic people who are ignorant to the symbolism behind changes and initiatives like this. Don't give up. The reason for the apathy is that euro-americans are so far removed from their culture which they left behind, they have no value for the culture that we hold fast to. So many americans want to say that they have “irish” roots or “german” roots, but what about their past do they celebrate? i'm pretty sure no one in ireland or germany is sitting around saying “hell yeah i have family in america” so hold onto your culture as long as you can, teach it to your children, teach them the truth, fight for the symbolism even if people would like to tell you “boo-hoo” and “get over it” so many people would like to forget about the atrocities that are personified by columbus, people would also like to forget that before the plague of government policy Native peoples on this and many other continents flourised for generations. Keep fighting.
5 October 2007
at 10:21 a.m.
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jrlii (Anonymous) says…
What does the Legislature have to do with it? Columbus Day is not a state holiday in Kansas.
IIRC the state holidays in Kansas are: New Years Day, Martin Luther King Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Veterans' Day, Thanksgiving (plus “Black Friday”) and Christmas.
5 October 2007
at 10:22 a.m.
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kujeeper (Anonymous) says…
Maybe once the Hispanics overrun our great country and destroy it we can have a caucasian day finally. I think the City should tell the Haskell people that they won't recognize Columbus Day if Haskell will finally admit the Wetlands are not sacred to them and let us build the SLT. Sounds like a fair trade to me!
5 October 2007
at 10:26 a.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
“Sounds like a fair trade to me!”
It is all about you and what you want, after all.
5 October 2007
at 10:31 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.”
(Funny, I don't remember saying that, at all….)
But, LJW, I personally *am* largely “indigenous”-i.e., having significant native American lineage. I'm entitled to use the “I” word (and variants thereof).
5 October 2007
at 10:31 a.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
Captain Obvious,
The Aztecs in particular were very brutal, but that in no way justifies the far greater brutality of the Spanish carried out in the name of their own greed and superstition.
5 October 2007
at 10:33 a.m.
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csgblaw (Anonymous) says…
My understanding:
1. The peoples who inhabited this continent before Columbus et. al. arrived, by-in-large, did not believe in property rights.
2. They did not agree with the concept of people having the right of enjoyment, possession, and control of one's real property to the exclusion of others.
3. Tension between the indigenous peoples and whoever would move here and have an interest in property ownership was inevitable.
4. Most of the people who were moving to the “new world” back then were being persecuted in their home countries for one reason or another.
5. Columbus is a “people's champion” because he brought the first official boatload of us over here.
6. For that many of us are thankful and want there to be a Columbus day holiday.
7. Those who do not like the idea of America for whatever reason may not want a Columbus day…but then again if they don't like America, why have they chosen to stay here?
5 October 2007
at 10:37 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Day Day
5 October 2007
at 10:38 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… or, as suggested earlier, shorten it to DaDa.
5 October 2007
at 10:40 a.m.
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ralphralph (Anonymous) says…
Indigenous Peoples Day ??
'Most Recent Previous Conquerors Day'
5 October 2007
at 10:42 a.m.
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geekin_topekan (Anonymous) says…
I would love to eliminate Columbus day just so we don't have to listen to this crap every time it comes around.,Same with Thanksgiving.
As a self repecting native I could care less about what happened to Columbus day the holiday. I would like to see the legacy if his discovery of Cuba taught realistically in schools though.He also brought satan's language(Spanish)to this side of the world.
Thanksgiving day?Since they were the original welfare case we should call it “Welfare day” and every one who draws free cash and foodstamps gets an extra allotment.
I love being native and I love seeing my people adjust and prosper off of the rez.Don't get me started on tribal politics.Let's just say that every 1st of the month is Native AMerican day on the rez!OUCH!!
5 October 2007
at 10:54 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Captain_Obvious (Anonymous) says:
“Columbus was awesome. He took an idea and applied courage and discovered this new world. The gold that was found in this world allowed spain and the rest of europe to defeat the ottoman invasion and to turn back the onslaught of Islam. The savages of this world were taught that human sacrifice and cannabalism are wrong. It worked out great from my perspective.
Yeah! Columbus!!”
Many parts of the world didn't have human sacrifice and cannabalism back then. When Columbus ruled the sea, “witches” were still prosecuted in Europe… so you didn't call that “human sacrifice”? And North America didn't have cannabalism…. at least not among the Native Indian tribes. The “savages” of the world…. I think should be pointed towards Columbus and Europeans…. There are many parts of the world that were already “civilized”… Mongolians ruled Europe back then, China had their Emperors, Siberia, Eygptians, Ethopia, Majuphahit Empire (South East Asia) were all “civilized” already.
You know, I thought your comment was trying to tell everyone that the Europeans were more civilized back then… and it was a blessing…. that by itself is pretty racist.
5 October 2007
at 10:57 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
toefungus (Anonymous) says:
“If it was not Columbus, it would have been someone else. At vastly superior force encountered a weaker force and prevailed. This continuing progress is the nature of human beings.”
Yeap, that would have been another Europeans. China's Zheng Ho didn't do what Columbus did when they ran into weaker forces. When they reached the weaker nations in Africa, they didn't send shiploads of people into Africa and started colonizing them. Just look at Africa today, you will find that Chinese was not spoken at all, but European languages are all over…. why? And China didn't take slaves from Africa to serve the masters back in China…. what does that tell you?
5 October 2007
at 10:58 a.m.
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levelheaded (Anonymous) says…
I don't understand why people cant just leave things alone. People in this country are too overly sensitive. What they are talking about happened 500 years ago. It happened you can't change it and placing blame is ultimately self defeating because it just ticks people off. I can see the point that we are celebrating a man who was the reason that destruction was brought upon these people's ancestors, even though the european discovery of America was going to happen eventually whether 500 years ago or 100 years ago. But on the other hand Columbus is the reason we exisit here at all. No one can say for certain whether that they would have even been born if that event hadn't happened. And if you had been born where you would be and what your living conditions would be. It is very possible the students at Haskell wouldn't even exisit if it hadn't happened. You can't unmake the
past or even regret what happened, maybe not celebrate it, but never wish it away or regret it because without our history we would not be the people we are today. Whether you are black, white, hispanic, indian, what ever your heritage if you were born here you are an iIndigenous person plain and simple. And expecting preferential treatment is both arrogant and selfish, again whether you are white, black, hispaninc, indian…..
5 October 2007
at 11 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
kujeeper (Anonymous) says:
“Maybe once the Hispanics overrun our great country and destroy it we can have a caucasian day finally. I think the City should tell the Haskell people that they won't recognize Columbus Day if Haskell will finally admit the Wetlands are not sacred to them and let us build the SLT. Sounds like a fair trade to me!”
If you look at many Latino countries, you can see that they're very very liberal when it comes to immigration and races. Yes, the blacks in many Latino countries are ill-treated, but these countries do have populations that accept immigrants better than America. Hispanics have white in their blood. They're considered partial whites…. so what's wrong for them to overrun this country and then we can label them whites! Case close.
5 October 2007
at 11:01 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399-in-the-Sky Day!
(… of course, *someone* will want to “round” or “truncate” it.)
5 October 2007
at 11:01 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
There are lots of history in this. We might just want to call ourselves Americans and start teaching our children about how to be an American, and not worshipping Columbus, any tribal chiefs etc! In fact, it's good enough having George Washington as our honor! Thrash Columbus!
5 October 2007
at 11:01 a.m.
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EXks (Anonymous) says…
This little gem is sure to make all the Bill O'Slimey and Fixed news poodle pack howl with anguish…………. where I now work, the board of regents and students unanimously decided to swap Colombo day for Cesar Chavez Day…. and isn't it about time to replace all those dead white guys on our currency???
5 October 2007
at 11:05 a.m.
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TheYetiSpeaks (Anonymous) says…
Marion-
A few thoughts:
1- There is significant evidence that the Spaniards of the time thought that Columbus' actions in the New World were indeed heinous. (Please see link I posted earlier) So your context argument does not hold water.
2- The Indians used more of the Bison they killed then we use of the cows we kill currently.
3- Your Pizzaro story about 200 soldiers slaughtering 5-7000 Inca is woefully inaccurate. As point of fact, most Inca were killed by smallpox brought there by the Spanish. As the Spanish marched, the disease spread faster. By the time Pizzaro and his men made it to Cuzco, they for all intents and purposes walked right in as most of the Inca there had already perished due to the disease and yes, a small amount of infighting due to the power vacuum the disease had created by killing the Inca leader and his heirs.
As for the rest of the posters who seem to share the attitude of “get over it.” I find your logic faulty. I think European Jews might have a problem with Hitler Day. I think Kurds would have a problem with Saddam Day. Yes, atrocities happen through human history, but we dont have to celebrate them.
5 October 2007
at 11:09 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
levelheaded (Anonymous) says:
“I don't understand why people cant just leave things alone…..”
That's the problem when someone killed MLK and not let him resolve the racial issue once and for all. That's the problem when we allow Civil Rights movement but then didn't correct the history book to reflect the new age of everyone is an American. This really highlights that we really need to call ourselves Americans and not Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians….. I would care less about your skin, but I care about your brain. But history will bring down anyone, let's straighten this history and get things back into the real path of being Americans, and it will solve all the problems like racial conflict, and border security.
5 October 2007
at 11:17 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
No, that would be April Fool's Day…
5 October 2007
at 11:18 a.m.
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Bubbles (Anonymous) says…
The names have gone from Savages, to Indians, to Natives, to Indigenous? What comes next?
5 October 2007
at 11:18 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… May … June … July … August … September … October … November ….
5 October 2007
at 11:23 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Bubbles (Anonymous) says: “The names have gone from Savages, to Indians, to Natives, to Indigenous? What comes next?”
Indigents. (Just don't abbreviate it.)
,:-^)
(LJW, take notice! That's a tongue-in-cheek smiley.)
5 October 2007
at 11:25 a.m.
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wt9 (Anonymous) says…
How about we recognize the errors of our previous “discoverers” and conquerers? Humans seems to have a way of making others submit to their power and want to control other human beings. Any time that happens, it is wrong according to my standards. i beleive in respect for all humans and all of life. We who live in the U.S. are very fortunate to enjoy a freedom and lifestyle that many others cannot. Especially if you are white middle/upper class. We need to continuously examine our lifestyles so we can improve our attitudes and situation so that all have an equal chance for this freedom.
The Native Americans deserve a day named Indigneous Peoples Day. it is small enough tribute to all they endured and to their strength and their presence as peoples and leaders in this country.
Loving Kindness to All,
5 October 2007
at 11:27 a.m.
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coolmarv (Anonymous) says…
Why does the LJW list what tribe people are from in the photographs?
5 October 2007
at 11:27 a.m.
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kugrad (Anonymous) says…
Godot, the problem was that the name change request was not presented in “Dada” format. Had they told the story of Columbus and the subsequent problems of Native Americans by painting their bodies gold, wearing cones on their heads, and miming the Lousiana Purchase while playing Inna Gadda Davida backwards, I think the vote would have been nearly unanimous.
On the serious side, how about Cultural Change Day or something that acknowledges what happened, not a version of one side or another. I also think some history lessons might help, since it was not Columbus who actually hit the North American mainland by my recollection. Cortez, DeGamma, some of the other Spanish conquistadors were much bigger problems.
5 October 2007
at 11:29 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Ï-in the Sky Day!
5 October 2007
at 11:38 a.m.
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Bubbles (Anonymous) says…
It appears to me that the 3 gals are trying to stake a claim to this continent. Sort of like they expect property rights?
I notice that none of them are from this area. So as outsiders, they are expecting Lawrence to change the name of Columbus day?
5 October 2007
at 11:40 a.m.
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FatTony (Anonymous) says…
Why don't we just call it looting and stealing your land day?
5 October 2007
at 11:43 a.m.
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Godot (Anonymous) says…
Actually, this holiday should be celebrated in Spain, not here.
5 October 2007
at 11:46 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
cool (Anonymous) says:
“I would prefer that MLK day be peace day and much more widely observed, in his honor still.”
That's a good idea. Putting a day on someone's name is really disturbing. Columbus Day shall be renamed “Europeans discovery of America Day”, MLK day should be “Civil Rights and Racial Integration Day”, Washington Birthday should be “Remember, Rights and Freedom is for Everyone Day”….. we'll solve this problem once and for all.
5 October 2007
at 11:52 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far awaaaaaaay!”
5 October 2007
at 11:55 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Mmm… somebody pass the cranberry sauce!
5 October 2007
at 11:57 a.m.
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lonelyboy (Anonymous) says…
You will never change the mindset of some people ” it ” is alive and well. Mvto este-cate
5 October 2007
at 12:04 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Yeti wrote:
“1- There is significant evidence that the Spaniards of the time thought that Columbus' actions in the New World were indeed heinous. ( see link posted earlier) So your context argument does not hold water.”
Marion writes:
Indeed, not all supported the “conquest” of the Americas but NOBODY turned dwon the gold!
“2- The Indians used more of the Bison they killed then we use of the cows we kill currently.”
Marion writes:
Not the point at all. I'm simply saying that (And the physical evidence supports me in this claim!) that at buffalo jumps, far more bison were kiiied at one time than any single group could use. I make the point to demonstrate that the Native American had little respect or perhaps even no notion of the concept of what we know call conservation.
http://www.s201264329.onlinehome.us/
http://www.lewis-clark.org/content/co…
excellent book:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/27615…
From the review of that book:
“In each case, Krech relies on data instead of romance and draws his conclusions carefully. For instance, in referring to widespread accounts that Indians used every part of the buffalo, Krech states, “These accounts might not be wrong—in some instances people did indeed use thoroughly the animals they killed—only ungeneralizable.” Use depended on relative availability. When buffalo were scarce, Indians conserved; when the animals were plentiful, Indians used only the choicest cuts of meat and left the rest for scavengers. Such a view of Indian behavior re-creates Native Americans simply as rational human beings—hardly a bad thing, but one far removed from the Noble Savage mythos.”
cont'd
5 October 2007
at 12:05 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
cont'd:
3- Your Pizzaro story about 200 soldiers slaughtering 5-7000 Inca is woefully inaccurate.”
Marion writes:
I think not.
The “Battle of Cajamarca” is a well documented event in which fewer than 200 Spanish slaughtered 5-7000 Inca in a single day.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne…
http://teachers.sduhsd.k12.ca.us/tpso…
From the above:
“Six or even thousand Indians lay dead, and many more had their arms cut off and other wounds. Atahuallpa himself admitted that we had killed 7,000 of his men in that battle.
Disease was a quite unintentional consequence of the European invasion.
Pre-Columbian pandemics anda diseases:
http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S…
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/arti…
It is quite true that due to the “virgin soil” concept, perhaps as much as 90% of the pre-Columbian population was wiped out by disease but again, this was not intentional on the part of the Spanish invaders.
I am not suggesting that we “forget” in any way but the conquest of the Americas is typical of the conquests of essentially a stone age-people by a technologically superior people.
What to do with Columbus Day?
i dunno but whatever we do, let's do it based on facts and rational thought, not emotion.
5 October 2007
at 12:13 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Try not to step on 'em!
5 October 2007
at 12:25 p.m.
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geekin_topekan (Anonymous) says…
“…Personally, I'll be spending the next three holidays naked in my basement, stabbing myself in the thigh with a fork to atone for hundreds of years of Anglo European murder and oppression.”
++++
Umm..,aim for the scrotum.The long term effects are greater.
5 October 2007
at 12:28 p.m.
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Yaya_meerkat (Anonymous) says…
Hey, if the Indians were so damn smart, why didn't THEY invade Europe instead of the other way around ?
5 October 2007
at 12:43 p.m.
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delta77 (Anonymous) says…
Every day is indigenous peoples day!
5 October 2007
at 12:50 p.m.
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acg (Anonymous) says…
Dances with smurfs is cracking me up.
5 October 2007
at 12:56 p.m.
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Ceallach (Anonymous) says…
Why would they publish such a controversial article on I Don't Care Friday?
http://www.hallmark.com/ECardWeb/ECV….
:) Happy I Don't Care Friday!!!
Now, go back to the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
5 October 2007
at 12:57 p.m.
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dorothyhr (Dorothy Hoyt-Reed) says…
The reason LJW identifies the people in the picture by their tribes, is because it is rude to lump all indigenous people into one group called Indians (by the way this was Columbus' mistaken name for them, remember he was lost). Some tribes have similar cultures, but others are very different. It's like assuming that anyone with an hispanic sounding last name is Mexican. Try calling a Puerto Rican Mexican. You'll make an enemy for sure. For those of you white people who feel so neglected, remember we can celebrate our heritage too. I celebrate my Irish ancestors on St. Pat's Day. There have been 2 German celebrations this year in South Park. If you are religous, you celebrate those holidays. I go to the Ren Fest to pretend I'm at an old English fair. And as for our American identity there is the 4th and flag day and president's day.
I had a friend who's daughter was going to kindergarten in Ottawa. She pulled out her daughter when the teacher taught them that the pilgrims saved the indians from starving. The teacher refused to admit she was wrong. The school board just ignored my friend's complaint, so she sent her daughter to another school. I don't know if the teacher was a racist or just stupid, but I bet she continued to teach the lies.
5 October 2007
at 1 p.m.
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lazz (Anonymous) says…
I vote we rename this holiday “Monday” and try to stop bickering and start seeing each and every one of our fellow folks as Moderns. Our forebears of every race, religion, place and time did much to be held in awe, much to be held in disgust, and much more somewhere in between. Let 'em be and let's get on with our own here and now as best we can. These back-and-forth, chicken-and-egg, everybody's right, nobody's right arguments serve no purpose other than offering Marion a chance to show of his quasi-history and pseudo-anthropology.
Besides, every Monday should be a holiday. Make “Monday” synonymous with “day off” and we can all be fat 'n' happy and stop getting all in each other's faces.
5 October 2007
at 1:01 p.m.
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Ceallach (Anonymous) says…
Sorry, part of the URL didn't make it through . .
http://www.hallmark.com/ECardWeb/ECV….
5 October 2007
at 1:04 p.m.
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geekin_topekan (Anonymous) says…
“…ps. Not really, but thanks for the tip. Anything to elevate my suffering to atone for your suffering.”
++++++++
It's not for me.It's for all future generations of Americans.
5 October 2007
at 1:16 p.m.
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JJE007 (Anonymous) says…
Marklar Marklar! All marklars get the marklar off!
5 October 2007
at 1:18 p.m.
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lazz (Anonymous) says…
And by the by, just as a point of fact that seems to get lost out here in the Great Plains, Columbus Day, as celebrated by much of the country east of the Mississippi, isn't so much about the explorer and what he did or did not do as it is a celebration of Italian heritage for Italian-Americans. That's just the way it's evolved, into a celebration of Italian culture and customs, something roughly akin to St. Patrick's day for the Irish. Rightly or wrongly, many Italian-Americans see absolutely no connection between their celebration of Italian heritage and atrocities committed against the native people of North America. If the holiday is seen in that light, perhaps it would be less personally offensive to many who are outside the centers of Italian populations and view it as a celebration of the explorer who helped bring about the continental changes that led to so much pain and suffering. When Italian-Americans get together for a big, happy day, with parades, and great food, and friends and family raising a toast, they aren't trying to be dismissve of Native concerns, it's just not on their radar, just as “Columbus” isn't on their radar. It's just an Italian-American holiday, perhaps unfortunately named.
5 October 2007
at 1:20 p.m.
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stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says…
Hmmm… trying to think of a holiday that's not based on myth…
5 October 2007
at 1:23 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Lazz:
That wan't very nice and there is nothing “psuedo” about what I said; each of my claims are supported by the research and documentation. The fact that a less technologically advanced people were overwhelmed by a group of much more technologically superior people is not a reflection of any kind on the vanquished. It only means that the invaders had guns and the indigenous peoples did not. It's just a fact and a fact that we have seen repeated in events world wide. The guys with the guns (Or superior weaponry) usually end up with the food AND the money.
Isolation of populations led to lack of immunity to disease and well, there ya go!
We tend to mythologise near extinct cultures as being much more than they were or are to the detirment of real learning and history.
Hey, the Europeans were no reat shakes either; take a look at the Inquisition, The Burning Times, debtor's prisons, slavery, etc, just to get you started.
It is my contention and a very valid one, I believe, that the Americas were doomed to subjugation by one group or the next and further, that there was absolutely nothing that the indigenous peoples could do about it.
By the 15th Century, the Chinese were using firearms, even if only in the form of small hand cannons and had ocean going vessels as did the Japanese who also possessed far superior weaponry compared to that of the peoples of America.
In short, the “conquest” of the Americas was fated to occur one way or another so let's look at the events realistically in light of the evidence and we will be much better off.
5 October 2007
at 1:52 p.m.
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Confrontation (Anonymous) says…
I think we should celebrate “Let's Hop the Border Day.” Then, when the illegals come out to celebrate, we arrest them, send them back to Mexico, and bill their birth nation for their healthcare bills and law enforcement costs.
5 October 2007
at 1:53 p.m.
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Confrontation (Anonymous) says…
Or-the feds could just show up at St. John's Fiesta next year.
5 October 2007
at 1:56 p.m.
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stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says…
I thought of the 19th of April… but then remembered that we don't celebrate that as a holiday…
5 October 2007
at 2:03 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Captain_Obvious (Anonymous) says:
“if only Grandma's (my) people would have learned to forge iron, to read and write and to develop a culture before the euro-invasion. From this day on I'll take the name
Dances With Smurfs.”
The Native Indians know how to read and write by the time Europeans came, they know how to fight and know how to forge irons.
The only reason why Europeans won, was that:
1. They stole gun power making technology from China.
2. They colonized everywhere they go (they didn't just come to America, they went everywhere to colonize).
3. After that, they shipped in all the slaves to work for them, and pay non-slaves real low (people in India and SouthEast Asia) to work for them and they… gathered all the fruits. That is why White people are richer than the other races today.
4. Some even suspected that Columbus stole the maps from someone who had already been there.
The Mongolians ruled parts of Europe for many years, but they didn't colonize them. The Mongolians didn't ship slaves from Africa to help them with their war and plantation. And they ran back to Mongolia after they lost to other races.
Also, it's wrong even to say that it's a day for European's discovery of North America… The Vikings discovered that long time ago. The Vikings didn't invade North America! They left! So it just shouldn't be a day to celebrate. Nothing had been achieved on that day, unlike MLK Day, or even George Washington Birthday!
5 October 2007
at 2:04 p.m.
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justfornow (Anonymous) says…
This day should be renamed” We brought forth the invention of the wheel day”…… or let's just call it “proud to be an American day” because that's what we all are no matter how you try to divide yourself. The second we stop trying to label and divide ourselves into groups other then Americans this country will prosper…… I'm justfornow and I guarantee it.
5 October 2007
at 2:08 p.m.
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riverat (Joe Hyde) says…
Rather than doing away with Columbus Day, a more helpful redress would be if our nation enacted laws that exempt Native Americans from paying annual state and federal income taxes.
5 October 2007
at 2:09 p.m.
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Confrontation (Anonymous) says…
Wouldn't that be great if that could really happen, justfornow?
5 October 2007
at 2:17 p.m.
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stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says…
Mr_Ramirez
I'm down with whitey, too…
5 October 2007
at 2:25 p.m.
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lazz (Anonymous) says…
I was just kinda giving you a little bit of ribbing, Marion … I always enjoy reading your thoughts on such matters … My jab was aimed at your contentions regarding worldwide travel and trade that crossed through North/Central/South America, and back again, centuries before Columbus … From my limited reading, it's mostly conjecture, making huge leaps from limited, anecdotal evidence, though I do agree that strong cases have been made for pre-Columbian settlements and fishing by Scandiavians, and even capitalist Englishmen in search of cod-fishing waters…
5 October 2007
at 2:27 p.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
Let's give North America back to the giant sloths. That should satisfy everybody.
5 October 2007
at 2:34 p.m.
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stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says…
Probably the best thing about Columbus Day is that it seems to always lead to discussions about the history and realities beyond the concept of “discovery”…
5 October 2007
at 2:43 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Snap:
I had a giant sloth once but he proved impossible to housebreak so I sent him to a zoo.
You have not seen biosolids until you have seen the biosolids left by a giant sloth.
5 October 2007
at 3:18 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Lazz:
Yep; not enough coffee on my part today!
I think that in thte near future, unless further study is prohibited by the descendants of the indigenous peoples, it will be shown that trade routes existed and settlements were in place well before the arrival of the Europeans.
5 October 2007
at 3:20 p.m.
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justfornow (Anonymous) says…
Things that would benefit all of us.
1)SLT, would increase the size of the wetland area, have a visitor center and parking lot. BTW. I have not seen where the SLT would destroy the existing wetlands.
2)Eliminate all groups, special groups, groups that were here first, groups that were here 2nd, 3rd, Black, Brown ,Red and White groups.
3)Come too terms with, everybody here is one group….. American and yes I will bring up the race card, if you don't think like me you are a racist…. I have a two slaves, 3 Indian's and Robert “Lefty” Grove in my family tree. Start thinking like me and everything will be ok.
5 October 2007
at 3:24 p.m.
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justfornow (Anonymous) says…
BTW, Our mayor is worthless as a leader.
5 October 2007
at 3:41 p.m.
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Ceallach (Anonymous) says…
“The Native Indians know how to read and write by the time Europeans came, they know how to fight and know how to forge irons.”
I'm not sure about other tribes, but Sequoyah developed the first written language for the Cherokee from 1809 - 1821. Due to the Europeans already being here, he was 1/4 Cherokee.
5 October 2007
at 3:51 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Let's give North America back to the giant sloths. That should satisfy everybody.”
… but won't we first have to *take* it from them?
5 October 2007
at 3:54 p.m.
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dorothyhr (Dorothy Hoyt-Reed) says…
The Mayans had a written language that was almost destroyed by a priest when he burned all their books. A book that was a key to the writings in the ruins languished unoticed in a German library which was bombed in the second world war. A russian soldier rescued it from the fire and later revealed it to the world. I wonder what knowledge was lost when the books were burned?
5 October 2007
at 4:17 p.m.
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RomanNose (Anonymous) says…
It's highly unlikely Columbus thought that he had landed in “India” seeming it was at that time called Hindustan.
Russell Means told this story in an article he wrote for the December, 1980 issue of Mother Jones magazine;
“Yet, according to history, Columbus was so impressed by the goodness, grace, gentleness, and generosity of the residents of his new-found island that he declared they must be “in Dios” — or living “in God.” From this came their name: “Indians.”
It's certain that Columbus did some pretty horrible things. But serving up a side of cheese…as a Cheyenne, Columbus Day shouldn't be a day I regret and dread, but rather a day of celebrating the goodness that comes with any friendship.
5 October 2007
at 4:20 p.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
I go now to punish myself for the sins of the White Devils.
5 October 2007
at 4:22 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Ceallach,
“I'm not sure about other tribes, but Sequoyah developed the first written language for the Cherokee from 1809 - 1821. Due to the Europeans already being here, he was 1/4 Cherokee.”
But the Europeans didn't just dominated the tribes that didn't know how to write or read or use weapons. They just came for everyone. The other empires (Mayans and Aztech) were quickly wiped out. The posting originally came from another person, who claimed that it was good for Europeans to come and wipe out the entire cultures, since they didn't speak or write at all. It's not a good excuse to wipe people out. It's not just the Indians. Other races were not allowed to migrate into the New World, and Africans were shipped in as slaves. Well, if some Africans tribes didn't know how to write or read, how about the Asians who were deprived of the ability to become citizens? The Spanairds wiped out entire Chinese population in the Philippines back in 1400, imagined when the Chinese were there before the Spanairds and had been living side by side with the locals.
Why? Why did the Europeans had to colonize and take over others' land and not lived side by side with the other races? The last 500 years had created a whole lot mess around the world today.
5 October 2007
at 4:41 p.m.
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Leprechaunking13 (Anonymous) says…
Chinese populations in the Philippines? are you sure they weren't phillipino populations cause the philipines aren't in China FYI, yes they are both asain but that shows ignorance and/or racism on your part from your thinking. You really need to look at a history book instead of relying on what you hear or just think happened because you look completely ignorant. Lets get something else straight Europeans didn't come up with conquering and colonizing, that is part of Human nature and has been going on since before Humans were even around. All parts of the animal kingdom do this to get better land, hunting grounds. Completely Rediculous especially because Columbus didn't land in the US, and unless your family migrated from South America then the natives posting have pretty much no connection to the mayan and incan cultures, and if that is the case than you immigrated here too.
5 October 2007
at 4:45 p.m.
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Leprechaunking13 (Anonymous) says…
Without Colonization Humans would still be in the dark ages literally. We would have absolutely none of the technology we have today. I also think it funny that the natives are so against the white population when genetics tests show a common ancester that links to an ancient European line, which would mean…….*GASP* they have white lineage!!!
5 October 2007
at 5:33 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“It is ok to be humiliated and embarassed….”
“Don't choose the wrong song….”
5 October 2007
at 5:42 p.m.
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Rainydaze49 (Anonymous) says…
So all of you in favor of columbus day wouldn't mind if we had Osama Bin Laden day… just a question. that is all.
5 October 2007
at 5:53 p.m.
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tuschkahouma (Anonymous) says…
Wow, a lot of uninformed people have spoken. Christobal Columbus landed in Cuba and
enslaved and wiped out much of the Taino and Arawak peoples from that area in the
name of the Spanish Crown between 1492 and 1502.
Within forty years, my Choctaw ancestors and the Chickasaw relatives to the north of them
had direct conflict and combat with Hernando De Soto and his pillagers in the 1540's.
At the same time, Coronado was coming across this area in his attempts to pillage and
exploit this area for the Spanish Empire. The Pawnee, Yscani, and Wichita peoples had to
deal with Coronado. Juan De Onate wasn't too far behind Coronado in his invasion of Kansas.
The Kaw and Osage people had to deal with Spanish, French, and American invaders in Kansas
in the 18th and 19th centuries. Which leads me to my point. We, as Indigenous peoples of
the land, whether we're Ute, Lenape, Lakota, Choctaw, Osage, Miami, or Mohawk, all can talk
of what has happened over the last 500 years. Anyone else on this post probably only
recalls stories of trips across the ocean or trips across trails through Indian Country in the
17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. Our history is here. It doesn't involve George Washington,
Benjamin Franklin, or Thomas Jefferson, unless it's talk of George Washington burning
Oneida and Seneca corn fields causing stavation, Benjamin Franklin admitting influence
of the Six Nations on the U.S. Constitution he authored, or Thomas Jefferson digging up
the burial mounds on his Virginia plantation, thus becoming the father of American
archaeology. We have a history here going back thousands of years here, what do the
other posters have?
5 October 2007
at 5:56 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“We have a history here going back thousands of years here, what do the other posters have?”
… all the white space in the world in which to type….
5 October 2007
at 6:07 p.m.
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Leprechaunking13 (Anonymous) says…
tushka- you're saying that before 1492 all other races of the world had no history? Or are you saying that your ancestors are the only ones to be invaded and conquered?
5 October 2007
at 7:22 p.m.
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toefungus (Anonymous) says…
I just learned that Capitol Federal, is open on Monday. They refuse to recognize this federal holiday. Are there any other progressive banks in town?
5 October 2007
at 7:55 p.m.
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hottruckinmama (Anonymous) says…
I've often wonder why we honor anyone by closing down the banks and government offices? It gives bank and government employees the day off and pretty much gives the rest of us a pain in the neck trying to get any business done. And for petes sakes why don't they give all veterens the day off for veterens day instead closing the banks and government offices?
5 October 2007
at 8:05 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“And for petes sakes why don't they give all veterens the day off for veterens day instead closing the banks and government offices?”
Yeah, veterans might like to make a withdrawal on their day off! Yeah!
5 October 2007
at 8:10 p.m.
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KS (Anonymous) says…
Good grief! I had no idea we had so many history majors in this town. Surely you all must be on the staff of KU? No wonder it costs so much to go there with all of you on the staff! Good grief! Too many people have too much time on their hands. It's Columbus Day! Get over it.
5 October 2007
at 8:15 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Yeah, get over it! Yeah!
5 October 2007
at 8:20 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Leprechaunking13 (Anonymous) says:
“Chinese populations in the Philippines? are you sure they weren't phillipino populations cause the philipines aren't in China FYI, yes they are both asain but that shows ignorance and/or racism on your part from your thinking. You really need to look at a history book instead of relying on what you hear or just think happened because you look completely ignorant. Lets get something else straight Europeans didn't come up with conquering and colonizing, that is part of Human nature and has been going on since before Humans were even around. All parts of the animal kingdom do this to get better land, hunting grounds. Completely Rediculous especially because Columbus didn't land in the US, and unless your family migrated from South America then the natives posting have pretty much no connection to the mayan and incan cultures, and if that is the case than you immigrated here too.”
Hey, please check your information before you open your mouth!!!!
http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/9931/jvi…
You're the ignorant one!!! Idoit!
5 October 2007
at 8:21 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Leprechaunking13 (Anonymous) says:
“Chinese populations in the Philippines? are you sure they weren't phillipino populations cause the philipines aren't in China FYI, yes they are ……..”
Hey, please check your information before you open your mouth!!!!
http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/9931/jvi…
Please make sure you're not ignorant before you chant some rubbish here!!!!!
5 October 2007
at 8:22 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Idoit!”
What is it that you do?
5 October 2007
at 8:25 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Leprechaunking13 (Anonymous) says:
“Chinese populations in the Philippines? are you sure they weren't phillipino populations cause the philipines aren't in China FYI, yes they are ::..”
More for you to read!!!!
http://countrystudies.us/philippines/…
Please, make sure your knowledge of history is good enough. The argument was that Chinese would “colonize” the region, but the Spanairds did that while the Chinese went to Philippines only as traders, and never did colonize Philippines. They become part of the country. Hey! You have to ask someone who know the history real well before you even open your mouth!!!
5 October 2007
at 8:29 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous
“Lets get something else straight Europeans didn't come up with conquering and colonizing, that is part of Human nature and has been going on since before Humans were even around.”
This is what he said. Zheng Ho had traveled as far as Africa but he never once conquered or colonized any lands he found. That is not part of Human nature. It's part of human nature to conquer, but it's not part of human nature to dominate the entire world and make them the superior race.
And Leprechaunking13 said this: “Chinese populations in the Philippines? are you sure they weren't phillipino populations cause the philipines aren't in China… ou really need to look at a history book instead of relying on what you hear or just think happened because you look completely ignorant.”
If I'm ignorant, than he is an idiot.
That is what I meant.
5 October 2007
at 8:32 p.m.
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tuschkahouma (Anonymous) says…
leprechaunking, it's history on this continent. Read the entire thread before reacting, or maybe
you're willfully omitting the empirical evidence in such cases that the immigrant peoples of this
country borrowed Indigenous names for places. For example, Pennsylvania settlers moving
to an area of Absoroka, Cheyenne, and Arapaho domain, claiming it by force and calling
it a Lenape or Delaware word for a flat valley, Wyoming, that came with the European
settlers from Pennsylvania to that area. Or Missouri from the Missouria tribe or Iowa from
the Iowa tribe or Nebraska from the Otoe word for flat water (Platte River).
Lastly, I love how many of these posters take the latest championed statement from
desperate scientists who want so badly to tear apart the Kennewick man in the
name of 19th century Eugenics and justify their empirical denial of our territories
for scientific and racial gains. There are Cree elders in the prairie provinces of
Canada who were taught names for dinosaurs that were handed down from generation
to generation by their elders who saw the dinosaurs firsthand many millenia ago.
White anthropologists and scientists would be all over these indigenous people,
clamoring to discredit them. the simple point is, our ancestors were on this land,
they saw these creatures here, European immigrants and scientists didn't. My Choctaw
ancestors were in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Arkansas, for thousands
of years. There's a Panola in Mississippi and Texas. There's a Bok Chito in Mississippi
and Bogue Houma in Louisiana. Our territory was and is in that area. We know our history
way back. No 12,000 year theory is valid to people who've always been here. Professor
Vine Deloria Jr., a revered Lakota scholar had terse words for the Bering Strait theory.
It is simply a scientific theory. It isn't fact. I wish the posters here would learn a little
factual history about the land they've lived on for about three hundred years.
5 October 2007
at 8:33 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Captain_Obvious (Anonymous) says:
“Livingstone,
They didn't have an alphabet. They had drawerings. They loved to do drawerings. They made drawerings on their tee-pees and drawerings on stone. Some of the Lamanites made drawerings on golden plates.
My being 1/16th Lamanite is probably why I can make drawerings. My stick figure drawerings are very informative.”
I thought that you want to know that these are not drawings, these are writings. If it's drawing, then you won't be able to use them in Mathematics. I thought that you might want to take some courses to cheer up your day and improve your IQ.
http://www.lost-civilizations.net/may…
5 October 2007
at 8:36 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Captain_Obvious (Anonymous) says:
“livingstone,
Join snap_crackle_no_pop and I (Dances_With_Smurfs) on ESD for a day of self abuse. We'll pay for the abuses of the evil white devil if no one else will.
And livingstone, the future holds a bright tomorrow. A tomorrow when man is no longer the pre-eminent species on this planet, some day this will be::.. a Planet of the Apes.”
Just to let you know that Alphabets ain't the only writing system in the world. The future for you is brighter since I thought you may want to learn about the system of writing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_…,
Alphabets are only one of the systems…. don't you think it's nice for you to learn someting today???
5 October 2007
at 8:38 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
L: “You're the ignorant one!!! Idoit!”
T: “What is it that you do?”
T2: Oh, I see, you “ignore” spaces. Me, I play in 'em.
Beware Carpal-Tourette syndrome! You could be the next victim!
5 October 2007
at 8:59 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Anonymous says: “Tangential, once again, you are babbling inanities.”
I have considered changing my screen name to 'resident_irrelevant'
5 October 2007
at 9:46 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
So, it was the Cree who hunted the dinosaurs to extinction?
(Who de-Cree'd that?)
5 October 2007
at 11:02 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Captain_Obvious,
Symbols can be derived from drawings, but they're not drawings. Egyptians' “drawings” are not drawings as if it is drawing, it represents the exact thing. The “drawing” becomes a symbol or word when it becomes a representation of a certain idea etc. Numbers are not alphabet, since it's Arabic and Arabic is not alphabet. So in short, the Native Indians are literate and not illiterate.
Well, I was made angry by a comment here… I'm sorry… but then, we all learn new things everyday. Don't we?
5 October 2007
at 11:13 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
First, the Native Indians over-reacted for “Columbus Day”. Then, many Americans start to say what would have happened to the “Thanksgiving”. Can you see the “assumption” that follows immediately? What the Native Indians want is to remove Columbus and not to honor him. It might be a “huge” request, but then, things can be sensitive to some but not treated as sensitive by others. Whites could have said, that's not a big deal even though the history is incorrect. But if history is incorrect, new generation will continue to learn the wrong thing. There's nothing to hail about Columbus, he should only be hailed in Spain.
For example, I totally agree for hailing George Washington, the founding father of modern America. We should honor the leaders of this country that make America.. America. Martin Luther King, Washington, Jefferson, though some had relationships with slaves but that's fine. I think most of us can live with that. Columbus is way out of the formula. Why don't we worship the Vikings then? Since they're really the first Europeans to discover America? What is there to celebrate about Columbus? Did he introduce wealth to America? Did he bring justice and freedom? What was his motive? GREED. That is the last thing we were thought back in school. Columbus seemed like a hero to us, but he was not. He was just a sailor who was trying to exploit the New World for the riches it had. Nothing much to celebrate. He wasn't a hero, he was just a businessman. He was like Sam Walton, Warren Buffet, etc… did we put Sam Walton on our calendar and celebrate Sam Walton's day for inventing the largest retailer in the world?
Nope. Columbus was not a “bad” man, and he was just a businessman. Why should we be honoring a businessman? What has Columbus brought to Americans? Even if you're white, he only did his service for Spain and not even Britain. Remember Britain and Spain were trying to outrun each other to discover riches around the world. Any businessman who wanted money could have done that.
I don't think this country should honor a businessman. Sam Walton was just as courages, right? So was Bill Gates, so was Carl Lewis…. but did we get a Bill Gates Holiday? Or Carl Lewis holiday? Or even Jesse Owen's holiday? Nope! So, remove columbus!!!!
5 October 2007
at 11:32 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“… we were [taught] back in school. Columbus seemed like a hero to us, but he was not.”
Columbus seemed like a hero to us, precisely because it was taught to us, back in (Elementary) school. Children need heroes; sometimes, that's how they BECOME heroes. I can give up a day for that.
So, there you have it: “Hero Day.”
(Let's see if we can populate the year with them.)
5 October 2007
at 11:38 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
WHy are we changing a holiday for a minority view? Do we do that for all minorities? When the Whites no longer are in the majority, will the “White holiday's come back? HOw about when we start having all the Mexican holidays and Latin American holidays and the ….., you get the idea.
America is losing her sense of self.
This is predijudicial.
6 October 2007
at 2:34 a.m.
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baby_girl (Anonymous) says…
So we're supposed to treat everyone the same, but everyone doesn't want to be treated the same? The government doesn't treat everyone the same, so that doesn't help the way people feel. Because one is another race doesn't mean they should get special treatment.
Something that's bothering me to the person who said something about being Native American and being happy they get a check at the beginning of the month and being happy on the reservation and so natives shouldn't be concerned about the name of Columbus Day? Wow, that's amazing. Be proud of getting FREE money. Think of all the hard work that was put into getting that money made and distributing it to you and having a FREE place to live. Those of us that have to pay for every single thing in our lives sometimes wish we qualified for free things. Instead, lower class Caucasians, African Americans, Latinos and those that can't trace their native heritage end up homeless or on welfare and have to prove that they have nothing before getting sub par housing and medical care.
It's amazing that Haskell Indian Nations University wants a name change to Columbus Day when they already have everything they need….
Waiting for huge outbursts:.waiting:..waiting:..waiting:.
6 October 2007
at 3:45 a.m.
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kcwarpony (Anonymous) says…
Christopher Columbus was an illegal who came to this continent to find wealth and send it back home…
I guess it's all in how you look at it…
6 October 2007
at 8:12 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
kcwarpony (Anonymous) says:
“Christopher Columbus was an illegal who came to this continent to find wealth and send it back home:”
So, if we should call Christopher Columbus an illegal alien who failed to pay his taxes too. The Native Indians didn't know where to depot him since they didn't know where was Spain.
6 October 2007
at 8:16 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Now you all see, there are two sides of the story. To the Native Indians, Columbus was a criminal, to some Americans, he was a hero. Just the way how we were looked at in many parts of the world, and why people hated us so much. Sometimes, there are two sides of the story. Learn to live with that, and be brave enough to learn that we're not always the hero.
6 October 2007
at 9:36 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Now you all see, there are two sides of the story.”
Indeed, this story and related issues are polyhedral (complicated, of course, by the folding of space and time).
6 October 2007
at 9:53 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… and what's up with October? October is the tenth month, but “Octo” is the combining form for “eight.” Shouldn't October actually be… no… waitaminute… that would be December.
New question: How did our calendar become shifted by two months?
6 October 2007
at 10:28 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I infer from the brevity of your reply that I am to flesh this out on my own. Sir, you underestimate the degree of my intellectual laziness ( … hmm, perhaps not ).
6 October 2007
at 11:06 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… thanks for helping me to connect the dots (and for supplying the missing ones)!
6 October 2007
at 12:20 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Those who cannot remember the… [?]… are condemned to repeat it.”
6 October 2007
at 12:20 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Those who cannot remember the: [?]: are condemned to repeat it.”
6 October 2007
at 1:56 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“… cutting off the hands of surrendered enemies….”
Just about the time I was regretting not having been a better student of history, you've eloquently encapsulated the dark, dark landscape which historians must have to traverse.
6 October 2007
at 3:08 p.m.
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kcwarpony (Anonymous) says…
Actually, I was comparing what Columbus did to what modern day Mexicans do today by crossing the border and working here in the states. It seems one is celebrated for it and the other is hated. Talk about different rules…
6 October 2007
at 7:48 p.m.
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camper (Anonymous) says…
The more illegal immigrants the better. They particpiate in our economy and make it grow. We should be giving them cab rides across the border.
6 October 2007
at 8:19 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
kcwarpony (Anonymous) says:
“Actually, I was comparing what Columbus did to what modern day Mexicans do today by crossing the border and working here in the states. It seems one is celebrated for it and the other is hated. Talk about different rules:”
Double standards as always.
This has always happened. Europeans walking up the shores in New York were given free pass into the United States, while Mexicanos and Asians who came into this country before 1949 were disallowed any form of citizenships and had to remain illegals. That mentality remains till today.
The 250,000 illegal Irish were not that well-known or publicized. Someone here told us that they were here for other reasons, other than economic. In that case, we should allow all people to enter here as long as their reasons are non-economic? What a thrash!
What trash to have double standard: One for white and one for none……
6 October 2007
at 8:29 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“Indeed, this story and related issues are polyhedral (complicated, of course, by the folding of space and time).”
No one is asking for the removal of all “white” from the holidays. The Native Indians are just asking to remove those who were thrash in the first place. We shouldn't honor some thrash who are out for economic benefits and hail them as heroes. Our kids need heroes? They have enough. They already have Martin Luther King, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, JFK, Bill Clinton etc. More imaginatively, they have Superman and his gangs.
On the other hand, we should teach our kids to realize that bad guys will remain bad guys and will never be honored. Cheaters and greedy people should not be honored! Should we ask our kids continue to respect Marion Jones? Or would we rather ask them respect the more honorable unknown soldiers who gave their lives for this country? We should all wake up for the good of our children and teach them do the right thing.
A villain will remain a villain, no matter how well you cover him/her up.
6 October 2007
at 9:11 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Hey for those who think that the Native Indians are “irrational” about name changing for Columbus Day. The latest news from CNN. A car dealer in Florida tries to expand his base to the Latinos by advertising in Spanish received tonnes of emails, phone complaints from consumers that told him they won't buy from him anymore. In addition, when CNN tries to contact a person showing them the advertisement, they told CNN that the dealership is not trying to encourage Latino integrates into America and not encouraging English speaking….
Hey, those who call changing Columbus Day irrational, how about this simple dealership who only do an advertisement? You don't call those people “irrational”…. double standard!!!
6 October 2007
at 10:54 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I think I said this before, even if George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were tied to slaves, they are better candidates than Christopher Columbus. At least they define what freedom is and planted the roots for democracy. Columbus was simply a businessman……
6 October 2007
at 10:57 p.m.
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thebcman (Anonymous) says…
I must say a hearty “congratulations” to every single person who has posted on this thread. It has made for some interesting and very entertaining reading. (the stabbing myself in the thigh with a fork bit was a nice touch) .. It has also eased the pain of learning of Joe's Bakery's closing.
=========================
stuckinthemiddle (Anonymous) says:
Hmmm: trying to think of a holiday that's not based on myth:
==========================
New Year's Day ???
7 October 2007
at 12:23 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Indeed, this story and related issues are polyhedral (complicated, of course, by the folding of space and time).”
Since I've now been quoted, I'd like to revise my original statement:
“Indeed, this story and related issues are polyhedral (complicated, of course, by the folding of space and the unfolding of time).”
There, that's better (having now included the “historical” component).
7 October 2007
at 2:26 a.m.
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kcwarpony (Anonymous) says…
“Hmmm: trying to think of a holiday that's not based on myth:”
Cinco de Mayo?
7 October 2007
at 8:10 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
You acknowledge the need to correct our history right? You acknowledge we're beautifying our histories and made them too nice to our children, right? Honestly, I think you're right! The problem lies in history and our previous generations. They killed MLK that discontinued the good struggle that MLK was leading. They left the thrash to us and expected us to clear all the thrashes they had done. If I'd have told you that I'm a Hapa, you'd have read my postings from a different approach. Cheers.
7 October 2007
at 8:52 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
kcwarpony (Anonymous) says:
“Hmmm: trying to think of a holiday that's not based on myth:”
“Cinco de Mayo?”
New Years Day, Father's Day, Mother's Day, Independence Day, MLK Day (should be called Civil Rights Day), Labor Day, Boss Day, Secretary Day, Presidents Day, Memorial Day, Veterans' Day… it seems like Columbus Day is the one that has the myth in itself.
7 October 2007
at 9:10 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
So, what is it that the three women in the picture are so intently gazing at?
The Virgin Mother?
Sacagawea?
Pocahontas?
7 October 2007
at 10:20 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“So, what is it that the three women in the picture are so intently gazing at?
The Virgin Mother?
Sacagawea?
Pocahontas?”
Brad Pitt?
7 October 2007
at 10:44 a.m.
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Rationalanimal (Anonymous) says…
Let's get rid of Father's day as well because lets face it, men (especially white conservative christian men) have been at the root of all the world's problems dating back to Adam. Let's also get rid of Labor Day because it celebrates labor and no doubt the big corporate fat cats are behind the holiday so they can somehow give less money and overwork their employees. Mother's Day, that's just a day to divert the attention away from thousands of women being oppressed (once again by white christian conservative men). Thanksgiving, that's just a celebration of a fake dinner between the pilgrims (once again white christian conservative men) and the indians they were about to betray and slaughter. Christmas, that's just a white male christian holiday used to exploit the masses for commerical gain. Easter, same thing. Memorial day, what's to remember, white male conservative christians have ruined the world. 4th of July, if the white mail christians hadn't slaughtered the indians and oppressed women, we wouldn't even have the holiday so scratch this one to. President's Day, white male christians again. Veterans Day, white christian males again stirring up wars, oppressing women and children, oppressing blacks, mexicans and indians—murderers! Martin Luther King Day, another pretentious holiday to divert attention away from the white male christian oppressing blacks for hundreds of years.
Guys, you lost a couple hundred years ago. We broke a bunch of promises and treaties. We're sorry about that. But, for reconciliation you can have a casino when no one else can. Get over it. Come join us in the 21st century.
7 October 2007
at 11:04 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Guys, you lost a couple hundred years ago.”
We ALL lost, a couple of hundred years ago.
7 October 2007
at 11:42 a.m.
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MacHeath (Anonymous) says…
“The woodwork squeaks, and out come the freaks”
7 October 2007
at 11:46 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Dots, I have been trying to tell these biosolidheads the very thing which you mention in your post but they are incapable of taking an objective look at history.
I think that this odd inability results from the intrusion of “liberalism” into the educational process, which leaves those so educated having no idea where they come from and hence; no idea where they are going.
7 October 2007
at 11:52 a.m.
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MacHeath (Anonymous) says…
You all can take that however you want to. You don't have to look much
further than this forum to see how deep racism and ignorance thrive.
I would sure like to see us take a jump up the evolutionary chain.
7 October 2007
at 12:04 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“… we can all** get behind: St. Patrick's Day.”
It could just be the green beer….
7 October 2007
at 12:19 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
MacHeath:
I did not know that looking at history from an objective viewpoint was a “racist” or “ignorant” thing.
All you read your post are now dumber for the experience.
Or smarter,, as the case may be, because rational and reasonable people now have a better idea of just what constitutes “revisionist history” and the sort of people who promote it.
7 October 2007
at 12:33 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
History inherently is “revisionist.”
7 October 2007
at 12:43 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… granted, some revisions are more entertaining than others…
,:-)
7 October 2007
at 1:29 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“No. You apparently didn't read my posts. I said what these men were doing was considered the norm at the time they were doing them, and you can't look back a couple of hundred (or thousand) years, apply today's standards, and brand them criminals or racists or anything else. Maybe some day lions might evolve to be vegetarians and believe that killing other animals is wrong. But you can't then look back and fault the lions of today for being lions - even if that's bad news for the antelope.”
Apparently, you don't get my meaning and didn't read my posts at all.
1. What was Columbus honored for? Courage and honor, which apparently, after many years of beautifying, he had none other than the profits he was chasing.
2. Then, I didn't brand Columbus racist or criminal. I only branded him as a businessman. I don't think we should give such an honor to a businessman. When in history did we give such an honor to a businessman who was here to exploit the riches? Unlike George Washington, for example.
3. You are saying “you can't look back a couple of hundred (or thousand) years, apply today's standards, and brand them criminals or racists or anything else”…. Sadly, many white men refuse to acknowledge to truth and prefer to keep them shut out from the lights. They choose to assassinate the truths, like Martin Luther King and let the problems pass on to our generation. The blacks and Native Indians had been lobbying for the correction of histories for a long time. It's not a recent thing.
7 October 2007
at 1:29 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
If the history is wrong in the first place, shall we go ahead to rewrite it? The very first step to correct the Columbus history, was to correct “Civilization or Men discovery of America”. Well, it's proven true that Columbus wasn't the first man to discover America. Shall we keep that sentence? If you say that “hey, that was a couple of hundred of years ago!”, but, China, India, and even the Mayans and Aztech were civilized! Do you support the fact that Columbus was not even the first European to discover America (The Vikings did it before him). Shall we go ahead to change that statemetn even if it happened thousands of years before?
Just when the world thought the earth was flat, Columbus had the courage to sail ahead into America, why? To discover another route to wealth…. India! He didn't want to discover America, he wanted to discover another route to the wealth of South East Asia, China, and India, so that the Europeans could skip the Arabs strangle-hold on the trading route. That was his objective.
Columbus died in Spain in 1506 and within 50 years of his death, his name vanished into obscurity. In the United States, American writer Washington Irving brought Columbus into the spotlight with his 1828 biography of the explorer, written while Irving was living in Spain. So Columbus' legacy didn't emerge until early 1800s and hey, it was a novel! And then, it wasn't until 1937 that the United States, under President Franklin Roosevelt, declared October 12 Columbus Day. President Nixon made Columbus Day a national holiday in 1971.
Hey, DotsLines, it wasn't a hundred years ago, it's 1971 when Columbus Day became a national holiday. It wasn't the truth of Columbus that made Columbus great, but a NOVEL!!!
Now, do you get what I mean??
7 October 2007
at 1:33 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
Read this, I'm pasting the last portion to enlighten all of you about Columbus Day!
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/america…
Columbus died in Spain in 1506 and within 50 years of his death, his name vanished into obscurity.
In the United States, American writer Washington Irving brought Columbus into the spotlight with his 1828 biography of the explorer, written while Irving was living in Spain.
It wasn't until 1937 that the United States, under President Franklin Roosevelt, declared October 12 Columbus Day. President Nixon made Columbus Day a national holiday in 1971.
Columbus lives on in America's classrooms, street names and institutions, with both the positive and negative aspects of his voyage and its repercussions spurring the debate.
“It has to be done carefully,” said noted historian Howard Zinn, author of “A People's History of the United States, 1492-Present,” of the challenge of properly explaining to students Columbus and the effect European exploration had on the Americas.
“You don't want to crowd into their minds horrible pictures of violence and blood,” he said. “And yes at the same time, we must not hide the truth.”
if you don't want to invent history, than don't invent one in the first place!!!
7 October 2007
at 1:35 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
I need to repeat myself:
If you don't want to change history later on, then don't invent one in the first place!
7 October 2007
at 1:38 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
All of history-like human memory-to some degree (to a high degree) is “invention.”
7 October 2007
at 1:45 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“All of history-like human memory-to some degree (to a high degree) is “invention.”“
If Columbus is only a character in the history book, that's fine. But treating an invented figure as a national hero, that's different from treating George Washington as a national hero. History should be corrected if it's found incorrect. We don't need another invented heroes in this country. If you want Columbus Day, how about a Spider Man Day?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/america…
If you don't want to change history later on, then don't invent one in the first place!
7 October 2007
at 1:48 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“If you want Columbus Day, how about a Spider Man Day?”
Max Headroom Day!
(We could use a little more headroom.)
7 October 2007
at 1:52 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Okay,
I will start a history lesson with everyone here.
Columbus did and didn't:
1. Columbus accidentally discovered America and not intentionally. He didn't know about America in the first place.
2. Columbus Day was “invented” in 1931 based on a novel written in 1824. So his “legend” was somehow fabricated and not necessary true.
3. Columbus Day became a National Holiday in 1971, so it ain't that distance in the past. So, it's not too late to change the direction of Columbus Day.
4. Columbus was just a businessman, who was trying to find a route to Southeast Asia, East Asia and South Asia. He was here to benefit the Spanish and Portugese Ruling family. His intention was for these families and had never thought of settling in America or did anything good for America.
5. His courage was fabricated by the novel and later on by two US presidents. If Spain didn't honor him, America should be the last place to honor him.
Now DotsLines, do you understand that you didn't know about Columbus real history and the agenda behind this? My suggestion is to keep your mouth a little silent…. for those who didn't know the history behind all these movements. But hey, there's freedom of speech, even KKK is allowed to talk here.
7 October 2007
at 1:55 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential,
“Max Headroom Day!”
True, yeah! People need a little headroom for more brains. I'd rather go for the more sexy Wonder Woman Day.
7 October 2007
at 2:09 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“I will start a history lesson with everyone here….”
You forgot one:
6. “Columbus is the capital and the largest city of the American state of Ohio. Named for explorer Christopher Columbus, the city was founded in 1812….”
- wackypedia
7 October 2007
at 2:20 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
livingstone says: “History should be corrected if it's found incorrect.”
anonymous says: “tangential, certainly you're not suggesting that we should adopt a version of history simply because it's “more entertaining.”
I think it safe to say that any given historian is prepared to “entertain” some versions of history and not others.
(My bad… off-colour man speak with forked tongue.)
7 October 2007
at 2:21 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential,
The city can keep its name, and all Columbus Statues in this country should remain. But just let people know that Columbus was fabricated by the two Presidents and was a fascination of a novelist back in 1824. That will keep Americans more educated about their own history. Well, we can also keep Columbus Day, as a warning to all future Presidents, regardless of colors, that no one should be allowed to fabricate history.
Our kids need to know the reality of life. I think so many are so detached from it nowadays and that is really my huge concern. They're expecting an A even without working in my class, and thought that everything's so rosy in life. Not true. Let the changing and education of the Columbus Day origin be the beginning of this journey.
7 October 2007
at 2:25 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“I think it safe to say that any given historian is prepared to “entertain” some versions of history and not others.”
Quite honestly, that would mean our holidays will become: GI Joe Day (Memorial Day), Santa Clause Day (Christmas Day)….. that would be fun! Maybe we should move our White House to Hollywood Boulevard?
7 October 2007
at 2:44 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… non sequitur, there, “breathing rock”
7 October 2007
at 2:55 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/america…
7 October 2007
at 3:15 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“What Columbus did - no matter his motives - was an epic feat which contributed to the colonization of this continent.”
I almost posted this very sentiment at one point in time…
Whatever Chris was-or wasn't-there must have been days, standing on the bow of that lead ship, which must have “smelled like napalm in the morning.”
7 October 2007
at 3:29 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Lincoln wrestled bears?
7 October 2007
at 3:45 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
You're doin' fine Dots!
Keep up the good work!
7 October 2007
at 4:35 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
I want a GretchenJP Day. :D
7 October 2007
at 4:42 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… kinda self-serving, wouldn't you say?
(I'm content with Groundhog Day, personally.)
7 October 2007
at 5:33 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
Ask you one question: Did Columbus did it for America?
If we accept Columbus even if he got the “courage”, then, we should have a day for anyone great… which can really crowd our calendar. Cheers!
We should not reward greed…. and anyone who didn't do it for America, should not be honored by Americans, regardless of your color.
7 October 2007
at 5:34 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Marion (Marion Lynn) says:
“You're doin' fine Dots! Keep up the good work!”
I'm supposed you should support a Malcolm X day…. cheers!
7 October 2007
at 5:36 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Thanks for so enlightening me. The rant of the truely desparate: If you don't agree with me, you must not understand. I'm a fairly educated person, livingstone. Nothing in your “real history” in any way diminishes what Columbus did - or if it does, then your “heroes” like George Washington need to be taken down a couple of notches, too. And obviously there's freedom of speech - morons like you can post your whining drivel at will.”
George Washington did it for America. Even I have no problem honoring the leader of the Slave states as they did it for America. But did Columbus did it for America or simply because he was white and he awoke the Europeans about new exploits in America?
7 October 2007
at 5:42 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
breathing rock say: “Ask you one question: Did Columbus did it for America?”
Yer startin' to talk like tha' shrubbery….
7 October 2007
at 5:43 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I'm glad you told me that you're educated… it's kind of a joke.
“2. Columbus Day was “invented” in 1931 based on a novel written in 1824. So his “legend” was somehow fabricated and not necessary true.”
So once again, he didn't even make the trip? Then how did he do all those terrible things to the inhabitants?”
If this is what you said, than anyone who made the trip should be honored? Then, should we set up a day for the black slaves, mostly unknown, but suffered the long journey in far worst conditions than Chris Columbus and many didn't make the journey alive?
Again, you refuse to read my posting again and again. I didn't say that he did anything terrible. I was saying that he was just a businessman, and he didn't do it for America. If not, the queen who sent him to America… should be honored as American hero too!!! Wow, what nice argument you have. read my posting!!
7 October 2007
at 5:46 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous,
“Yer startin' to talk like tha' shrubbery:.”
Hahahahah
DotsLines,
If I treat what you say is true, then, the Mexicanos who braved the desert to walk to America and work illegally should be rewarded with citizenships? Guetemalans suffered more throughout the journey you know….. hahahahhahahaahahah
7 October 2007
at 5:47 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I see it comin'… “a bucket filled with fake blood and dismembered baby dolls”…
Mark my words!
7 October 2007
at 6:23 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
livingstone:
Yeah, “Slave Day” is good idea!
You could get some really hot chikcs to dress in leather and lace and……………………………….
oh wait
that's not what you meant
never mind
7 October 2007
at 6:26 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Marion (Marion Lynn) says
“Yeah, “Slave Day” is good idea!
You could get some really hot chikcs to dress in leather and lace and::::::::::::.
oh wait
that's not what you meant
never mind”
If you have the IQ, you should know what I mean (unless you've such low IQ not to know). Columbus has his place in history book, that's it. Slaves should have their place in the history book, that's it. Holiday to honor someone should be reserved for those who contribute to America. Period. Now, you understand this low IQ explanation?
7 October 2007
at 6:33 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Marion says: “You could get some really hot chikcs to dress in leather and lace and: oh wait… that's not what you meant….”
Actually, I think that may be exactly what he meant…
… earlier Breathing Rock say: “I'd rather go for the more sexy Wonder Woman Day.”
,:-D
7 October 2007
at 6:47 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Das_Ubermime
“Well shoot. There goes Valentine's Day, Easter, St. Patrick's Day, Thanksgiving day (no America then), Halloween and Christmas. Reality is understanding that we reward deeds more than motives. If somebody cures cancer, my first thought won't be “I know (gender neutral term) cured cancer, but did he do it with a pure heart?”“
Valentine's Day: No one's name is mentioned and no one's honored, except your Valentines.
St. Patrick's Day: None of the American's business, except Irish-Americans wearing green. It has not been a holiday and no one's honored. No presidential endorsement.
Thanksgiving: Starving settlers helped by Native Indians, and Native Indians are Americans already. No one's names mentioned during Thanksgiving.
Halloween: Who's honored here? Any name mentioned?
Christmas: A religious beliefs and only practice by Christians, no one else. It's not even called Jesus's Day.
Columbus Day: Honoring Columbus… see that problem? He was illegally trespassing America, should he be deported just like the illegal aliens?
7 October 2007
at 6:51 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Das_Ubermime,
More, why Einstein didn't get honored when he was the one who thought of the formula for the a-bomb that helped the world win over evils? No Einstein Day?
There are something that are best left in history book. Even today, historians are still debating on people who died thousands of years ago! So why not Columbus? People are still debating whether Ceasar was a good guy or a bad guy…. but Caesar never got his holiday…… or honor. Columbus is a guy in the history book, but not on the Calendar. Period.
7 October 2007
at 7:16 p.m.
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fozzworth (Anonymous) says…
heres an interesting article about our friend Marion Sidney Lynn. http://ikillspammers.blogspot.com/200…
it turns out that this guy is quite pathetic. he sends out email spam with stock tips for a living. also, he has been accused of stealing homeless peoples identity.
7 October 2007
at 9:18 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“fozzworth (Anonymous) says:
“heres an interesting article”
This explains a lot about these forums. History and “news” come from “articles” in someone else's blog”
If you treat CNN news source as a “blog”…
7 October 2007
at 9:26 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“First, it's *Saint* Valentine's Day, and the name is from two Christian martyrs named Valentine, you dolt.”
What is Valentine's Day celebrated for? Martyrdom? Or love?
“You are aware that both Julius and Augustus Caesar have entire months named after them in our calendar, aren't you?
You really are illiterate.”
Did we get July and August holiday and in honor of Caesar? Dots, shouldn't run away from the real meaning of Columbus Day. What is the meaning of Columbus Day?
Read my previous post: I supported Columbus, OH to retain its name, just as must as Columbus statutes. Columbus Day can remain if it wasn't for honoring Christopher Columbus for his “courage” and his “contribution” to America. Correct the history if it ain't right. As a moron yourself, you just kept on diverting from the real issue.
First, I didn't call Columbus a Racist. I called him a Businessman. Second, I didn't find him contribute much to America, so he should be spending time on the history book and not on our honors rolls, and he accidentally found America on his way to India… I supposed. Third, the meaning of Columbus Day was to honor him… July and August weren't taught to be heroes, they simply represented as months. Valentine's Day isn't about martyrdom, it's only about lovers.
Future Columbus Day shouldn't be about the courage of Columbus, but how folly led a guy to a land that causes so many arguments here.
I bet you should be smart enough to read what I am trying to say and not put words in my mouth. You should be smart enough to know that historians are still disputing histories and Columbus isn't alone. This 'news' isn't about removing Columbus from history book, it's about putting the real meaning inside our Calendar. Thought that you might want to learn English all over again.
7 October 2007
at 9:33 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I'm a Moron….. for arguing with your pointless argument and pointless rebuttals.
“Yeah. Just ask the Guatemalans how they get treated when they get caught coming across Mexico's southern border. (Mexico doesn't want Guatemalans taking American jobs from Mexicans.) Come on, livingstone, entertain us some more. This is really getting amusing now.”
So just tell me why you said this: “For feats accomplished in the distant past, you clod! Even in the legal system, you can't charge someone for a crime that wasn't a crime at the time the act was committed.”
First, I didn't claim what Columbus did was a crime. When did I say that? So, don't try to put words in my mouth everytime. I got sick of that!!!!! Second, you want to throw such a huge honor to Columbus when what he did was for economic reasons, so what is so honorable about traveling such long distance for economic reason? Just as what the Guatemalans did, and the Mexicans did, just that they walked shorter time, without names? I can see the start of you trying to differentiate races, just as one of your previous posts stating that Irish had better reasons to illegal come into the United States than other illegals… hmmmm…..
So how about those black slaves that got shipped in far worst conditions than Columbus himself? What have we put in the Calendar to honor them? You didn't answer this question.
I proposed this solution, keep both in history text and period!
7 October 2007
at 9:42 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
Read my lips:
Columbus is not part of America's history. He was part of Spanish history and he spoke Spanish and not English!
7 October 2007
at 9:51 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
fozzworth says: “heres an interesting article about our friend Marion Sidney Lynn.”
??
???
?
7 October 2007
at 9:54 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I thought you've watched too much Hollywood movie on Christopher Columbus.
A short real history about Christopher Columbus will tell you what I'm trying to tell you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christop…
First, he was searching for India and China, and not America. Second, he never set foot in what become the United States of America. Third, Columbus was particularly embraced by the Italian American, Hispanics and the Catholic Communities (thanks to the work he had done to lay the foundation for a Christian Americas).
So why is Christopher Columbus celebrated only in America for? Makes no sense…
7 October 2007
at 9:57 p.m.
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lawrenceofkansas (Anonymous) says…
Discover America? How about I “discover” money in your pocket?
7 October 2007
at 10:01 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
See where Christopher Columbus had visited:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Co…
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Co…
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Co…
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Co…
Let's say I accept what you said about the journey being horrific and he should be honored. Hey, there are too many heroes out there for us to hail! How about the Vikings? How about Zheng Ho? They never really set foot in the United States of America by the way, but spent a lot of time in the sea, just like Columbus. I thnk they also qualified some days on our calendar.
7 October 2007
at 10:08 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Das_Ubermime,
“What exactly are your criteria for cutting out Columbus Day? You started out with motive of the participating parties, then nationality and benefit to Americans, then federal government recognition and somewhere in there you fit the number of people being honored and how many people practice it. Could you focus your argument and come up with some sort of organized thought process by which I can show you how erroneous your train of thought is? It would really save some time.”
August and July are “advertised” as months and not as Augustus or Julio.
Valentine's Day are “advertised” as day for lovers and not St. Valentine's.
St. Patrick's Day shouldn't be here anyway, it's just the Irish.
Thanksgiving: Happen right here in America, communication between settlers and Native Indians. Of course, no name mentioned.
I think you should read my postings in full!!!!! Before writing.
Okay, your turn, so what is there to honor Columbus when he has never set foot in USA before? Base on what should we put him on our Calendar?
Valentine's Day, Christmas are all celebrated days around the world, V Day is tied to lovers and Christmas as a season. No human is involved and honoring no one. Closer to home, Memorial Day is for Veterans and those who had fallen and died for this country, Indepdence Day for America independent from the Great britain. Christopher Columbus? Where is his stand in American history? Tell me which other countries celebrated Christopher Columbus?
7 October 2007
at 10:11 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
With this forum rapidly approaching 300 posts, with each post seemingly lengthier than the last, I trust that you all will be calling a moratorium tomorrow, Columbus Day…?
(Well, perhaps not Breathing Rock, whose native American name I've used to properly conceal his identity.)
7 October 2007
at 10:25 p.m.
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tuschkahouma (Anonymous) says…
just like last year, a gazzilion posts by uneducated people who discuss everything under the
sun except the repudiation of an exploiting genocidal explorer who killed laid the groundwork
for the killing and enslavement of indigenous peoples from Argentina to Alaska for the next
five centuries. I guess the intelligent people must've stayed in Europe. They're probably
laughing at all of the uneducated billybob comments that have nothing to do with the subject
of this post from across the pond. they must be proud!!! yee haw!!!!
7 October 2007
at 10:30 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
It's going to be OK.
Everything is going to be OK.
Just step away from the keyboard.
No, don't look back.
Keep going.
Just keep going… going….
7 October 2007
at 10:44 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
OK, it's a total loss… looks like we're going to have to call in the extraction team….
7 October 2007
at 10:46 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
No, some of you guys got it all wrong!
St. Valantine's Day is this day on which a bunch of Dagoes and Hebes shot up another bunch of Dagoes and Hebes over who was going to control the beer in Chicago!
http://www.prairieghosts.com/valentin…
tush, baby!:
No one is saying that this biosolid didn't happen but let's not get crazy about it!
What happened is entirely in line with the mores and ethos of the time; not that the circumstance makes it right by modern standards!
From a modern standpoint and quite reasonably and rationally, just what is it that we are suppoed to do about it at this late date?
I'm serious!
Enlighten us!
7 October 2007
at 10:47 p.m.
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bolshavik_vw (Anonymous) says…
Im sorry The Indians were here in North America, way before Columbus stepped off the ship.
7 October 2007
at 10:50 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I am outta here….
7 October 2007
at 10:51 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Commie_VW:
Start doing your homework as there is a growing body of evidence that there were peoples in the America who preceeded the “Indians”.
7 October 2007
at 11:12 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
TRA:
Remember Napoleon!
7 October 2007
at 11:14 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Hey guys, I'm having my beer now. Good luck to those who want to celebrate Columbus Day. I'm rallying for Pope's Day tomorrow.
7 October 2007
at 11:17 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“Well, maybe when you said “To the Native Indians, Columbus was a criminal” there was an element of confusion:
Not that it mattered. My point (look up - too late, it whizzed past) was that, as I (and others) stated about a zillion times, you can't judge people from 500 years ago by today's standards…”
Sir, do you need more beer?
7 October 2007
at 11:18 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Marion,
Okay, okay, I'll rally for Napoleon Day tomorrow too!
7 October 2007
at 11:31 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Dots,
One more….. happy?
7 October 2007
at 11:45 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Captain_Obvious,
I'm here to make sure Dots gets his/her wish (getting over 350 postings).
By the way, who do you want for the rest of the days (we've got at least 280 to rally for)? Does Captain Cook sounds good? Stalin might be a good choice too, he was our ally. Maybe one for the hardworking drugs dealers down the streets. It's not an easy life selling drugs you know.
7 October 2007
at 11:47 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
“In German and English I know how to count down!
And I'm learning Chinese (And Spanish!), says Werner von Braun!”
Apologies to the Great Professor Thomas Lehrer!
8 October 2007
at 12:53 a.m.
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ksmom (Anonymous) says…
> denver-Police arrested 83 Columbus Day Parade protesters including
> American Indian Movement activist Russell Means after fake blood and
> dismembered baby dolls were poured on the parade route Saturday.
> At least 10 of those arrested faced charges of resisting arrest, while
> most faced charges of blocking a parade route or interfering with a
> peaceful assembly, police spokesman Sonny Jackson said. The parade
> through downtown was delayed about an hour.
>
> George Vendegnia, one of the organizers of the parade, said the
> protest
> and delay were planned for and caused minimal disruption.
> “With this protest, it's just motivating people more to be back next
> year and exercise their right to participate in an American holiday,”
> Vendegnia said.
I would suggest that since the demonstration “caused minimal
disruption”, and “motivated people to be back next year to exercise
their right to participate in an 'American' Holiday”, then perhaps the
protesters could register to be a participant next year. They could
build a float depicting Indians being bound, hung, and burning to
death. They could put vicious dogs attacking Indian men, women, and
children. They could put Indians being massacred and piled onto each
other by the hundreds.
I mean, after all, if the Columbus celebratory idiots are going to get
off on their parade, we should give them the true depiction of
events….yes?
8 October 2007
at 1:29 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Well, anyway, the sub-humans are out to kill off a superior species!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/…
Commies are scum and the group which is kiling the gorillas are commies; all in the name of Marx and Lenin!
As far as I am concerned, such sub-human scum as would kill the gorillas may well be shot on sight.
Same with certain other legitimately endangered species.
Such people have no respect for from which they came so their passing will not require or draw attention.
8 October 2007
at 1:20 p.m.
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BigPrune (Anonymous) says…
It would be nice to know why the flags at half staff. Does it have something to do with Columbus and mourning the discovery of the continent we now live?
8 October 2007
at 2:26 p.m.
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123_abc (Anonymous) says…
My god, most of you have a 4th grade education, if any at all. Where do you get your opinions? Is this the best you can make up with your limited intelligence? What kind of childhood trauma are you getting over? Your so aggressively average. I suppose it's just the colonizers' method of teaching you in school. All I can do is scoff at your naive thoughts. Ah well, I have places to go, people to meet. I'm going out to make a difference!
8 October 2007
at 4:20 p.m.
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tuna (Anonymous) says…
And once again Leif Erikson Day gets outshined…
8 October 2007
at 4:42 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Too late. Your head is buried way too far up there.”
Whamf you sphay? I can'ph hearh youh.
8 October 2007
at 11:08 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grader,
“Good god, why can't you people just enjoy the day off?”
How would you feel about the conference that denies the holocaust? And Ahmadinajah's comment that he wanted to destroy Israel?
Cheers.
8 October 2007
at 11:11 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“The name was popular before 1776, long before Irving's book as you said (how odd that is if he had passed into obscurity after he died, as some suggested), and is the name most of those others you mentioned derive from. Which would seem to indicate that the people who colonized America honored him by informally naming the whole darn place after him, before we had a city named Washington or any federal holidays.”
That was before Civil Rights…. ahem……..
8 October 2007
at 11:15 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Marion (Marion Lynn) says:
“Well, anyway, the sub-humans are out to kill off a superior species!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/…
Don't blame the commies…. it's human nature. When humans are too hungry, they will do anything… including running here to the United States. That's how millions of Europeans migrated to America since 1700s and 1800s… Whales and seals were nearly wiped off the planet, the message is clear. Before these “sub-humans” were given guns, they were living side by side with these animals. Who gave them these guns? Hmmm…. don't blame the commies.
8 October 2007
at 11:37 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Livingstone:
Are you discounting the bow and arrow?
Get real.
8 October 2007
at 11:54 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Marion (Marion Lynn) says:
“Livingstone:
Are you discounting the bow and arrow?
Get real.”
Bow and arrow ain't as powerful as guns, so the “sub-humans” couldn't kill all the animals and make them extinct. They had to live side by side with the animals. Put guns into those who are poor, and you can see the results. Put drugs in the hands of the poor… you can also see the same result.
8 October 2007
at 11:55 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Livingstone try to fill you with biosolids velly, velly good long time!
8 October 2007
at 11:58 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“WTF??? What does that have anything to do with? Another change in direction since every word you have been posting has been shown up as pure BS?”
Hey, what's the huge reaction about? I wasn't linking your posting to my past posting. I was only saying 1700 to 1900 was before civil rights movement. How does that make my comment a BS? Sure, Columbus was honored and hailed as hero. But it wasn't a holiday till 1970. His story was not right until recently (before, we were taught that he was the first man to discover America, later, first European). Sure, many places were named Columbia or Columbus. If only Native Indians had that much rights today and didn't have to stay in the reserves then…. I bet there would be far less Columbia and Columbus. That is my meaning. Stop your BS.
9 October 2007
at 12:02 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Marion (Marion Lynn) says:
“Livingstone try to fill you with biosolids velly, velly good long time!”
Hey, you were the one who blame on the commies… I am the one blaming the economy for the killings. What has the commie got to do with gorilla's killings? And breading “sub-humans”? Poverty breeds desperate livelihood, that is the problem with animal protection in Africa. I wasn't talking about Columbus in this case. To prevent animal killings, you gotta give something back to the people who live in poverty, not blame the commies.
Put guns with the poor, this is the result you will get.
By the way, I like your joke. But I hope you make some senses out of it.
9 October 2007
at 12:09 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Face it, livingstone. Everything you said here in the last two days was completely refuted. It's one thing to be ignorant. That can be learned away. If you're going to keep pushing your argument, you just make yourself look like a BS-er that's deliberately posting mistruths. Just say you were wrong for pity's sake.”
Why do you have to get so angry over a small posting. It's not that I will become a president and needs to be crossed examined. You didn't overturn the followings and I didn't BS:
1. Columbus didn't step foot near or on the United States of America.
2. Columbus accidentally found the Carribean when he was trying to find India and China.
3. He was a businessman and seafarer.
4. He did it for Spain and the king/queen of Portugal and Spain.
5. He faded into obscurity in Europe.
6. Columbus Day didn't exist till 1931, and wasn't made a holiday till 1970.
7. The story of Christopher Columbus was corrected for a few times, first, the “first man to discover America” was dropped, second, the “first European to discover America” was again dropped. More mistakes to come?
Obviously, you watched too much hollywood movies…. cheers.
9 October 2007
at 12:15 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“God your a cretin livingstone. Just shut up or admit you've been posting BS. Your whole argument last night was that Cloumbus didn't do anything for this country, he was just a made-up legend.”
Dots, don't put words in my mouth. First, I didn't ever say he was a racist. I didn't ever remember saying he was a made-up legend. I only said his story was “beautified”. Wasn't it? He was the “first man to discover America”… didn't that got corrected?
“Now it appears his name was held in esteem long, long before Irving published his book. Then, after saying over and over again that you weren't saying Columbus didn't do anything terrible, or criminal, now you're going to change direction (once again) and say since the holiday wasn't official until 1971 we should judge him by today's standards.”
He didn't do anything terrible. The Native Indians said that he did, but I didn't. I kept telling you that he was just a Businessman serving the queen or king of Spain. Find me the quote that I said he was a criminal and I will apologize. Stop your BS! And stop putting words in my mouth!
“Funny, as when I pointed out that in a court of law you can't charge someone with a crime that wasn't a crime at the time, you went ballistic and claimed you never said he was a criminal.”
I always said that he's a Businessman serving the King and Queen of Spain. He didn't set foot on North America. So he didn't actually discover America, he discovered the Carribean. Point to me where I had claimed that he's a criminal and I will apologize. If you, you better apologize for your bs!!!
“The only regret I have is I wasted so much time arguing with a mindless drone who talked a good game for a while, but turns out not to know jack.”
Hey, you like to put words in my mouth, don't you? You're a joke!
9 October 2007
at 12:22 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
Stop your BS and don't put words in my mouth.
Try to find my posting where I said that Columbus was a criminal? I will apologize if I said so, if not, please apologize.
I didn't claim that he did anything terrible. I was saying that he was a businessman who was serving Spain at that time. The Native Indians claimed that, not me.
Why all these BS reaction and getting angry? Over what?
9 October 2007
at 12:31 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“God your a cretin livingstone. Just shut up or admit you've been posting BS. Your whole argument last night was that Cloumbus didn't do anything for this country, he was just a made-up legend.”
Columbus wasn't a made-up legend, he was real. His story was beautified, especially by a Hollywood movie and a Novel (since when can you rely on a movie and a novel for historic accuracy?).
My last night argument was circled around “He didn't do anything for this country (the United States of America)”, yes. Didn't I make my argument? He didn't even set foot on this country, so how can he “do anything” for this country?
9 October 2007
at 1:27 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Someone please tell me to open up my CD of “The Wind”.
9 October 2007
at 1:36 a.m.
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Danimal (Anonymous) says…
Why can't we have both? And just rename Columbus Day, “Beginning of Permanent European Colonization and Subjugation Day” that should appease everyone without stepping on too many toes.
9 October 2007
at 8:43 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education
“Are you suggesting that we create a holiday celebrating holocaust denial or Ahmadinejad? I don't get it. Maybe you are asking how I would feel if we did create such holiday, but we got the day off for it? Considering that these are relatively modern events, I believe that using a modern perspective would be appropriate. Therefore, these would likely not receive holiday treatment. Instead we should have Columbia tuition refund day:”
Exactly, holocaust was a crime, but at that time, it was “acceptable” for the Germans. During those days in Europe, Jews had to suffer serious consequences and horrific discrimination. It wasn't until the Nazi that brought real justice to the Jews. Back then, the discrimination against the Jews was also considered acceptable by most European society (though not as horrific as what the Nazi did). In no way, we're going to have a holocaust denial day, so there's no way we're going to celebrate someone who didn't find America. The “meaning” of Columbus has been changed several times and until recently, it had become the “courage” of finding America and explore the unknown. Historians will dispute that again and again, and of course, we cannot live in untrue history, no matter how much Hollywood movie or Novel beautify them. It'd be more meaningful to rename Columbus Day as something else to avoid the continuous protest.
(*see, I didn't even protest against the movie or novel, they've the right to do whatever they want, as they don't really represent the facts. But if it's in the history book, historians have every rights to dispute anything that they considered not a fact).
9 October 2007
at 8:48 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Danimal (Anonymous) says:
“Why can't we have both? And just rename Columbus Day, “Beginning of Permanent European Colonization and Subjugation Day” that should appease everyone without stepping on too many toes.”
Nope, Columbus didn't actually call for the colonization of the New World and he wasn't responsible for the slave trade. Later generations were responsible for that. He didn't commit a crime and he wasn't a racist. He was just a businessman who was serving the king (or queen, I couldn't remember) of Spain. We don't need to have a day to remember the colonization, just put that colonization and slave trade in our history book, together with Columbus, period. Just cancel Columbus Day. He belongs to our history book, just as any other men and women.
9 October 2007
at 9:07 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Why do you keep arguing? Do you really enjoy making a fool of yourself? Everything you've said was invalid, and you just keep on and on and on.”
So you are disputing my facts and said I BS:
Your facts are:
1. Columbus did step on the United States of America.
2. Columbus wasn't on his way to India and China.
3. He wasn't a businessman and seafarer.
4. He did it for the United States of America.
5. He didn't fade into obscurity in Europe.
6. Columbus Day existed in 1800s.
7. Columbus is the first man to discover America.
By the way, how about your claim that I said he was a criminal and a racist?
“Fine, want to argue the civil rights aspect? That they shouldn't have given him a holiday in “1970” (you're wrong about that, too) because it was after civil rights?”
You said this! The protest against Columbus Day started way back in the 1970, not recently. It just fell into deaf ears. Back in those days, you think the All-white government cares about what the minorities say?
“Come to think of it, I believe it was Lincoln who proposed making Wa…..?”
How many times must I say that Columbus didn't commit any crime, wasn't a racist, and didn't even do anything for America! He didn't even colonize America, cos he was in the Carribean (beach man, beach!). Obviously, you miss my argument. Columbus is a non-comparable to Washington. Washington lived in the United States of America, Columbus didn't. Columbus was serving Spain and not America. Remember, America's celebrating Columbus when the world isn't?
“What the heck are you arguing? First it was that “his “legend” was somehow fabricated” (your words - yes, fabricated means the same as “made-up” in English)”
Obviously, you didn't read my post. I was saying his story was “fabricated” not him. At first, he was “the first man to discover America”, then, “first European to discover America”, then we found that he didn't actually find America. Whether he had the “courage” is still being disputed by historian. He paid all his crew men and was fighting with the Natives (so obviously he didn't enslave them). He didn't have any slaves on his boat. But he obviously didn't step on North America. Washington came out with the foundation of this country at that time, and everyone discirminated against non-white back then, so that is fine as he was acting according to his time.
Columbus was fine, he was doing things for his time. But his story was still in dispute today and he didn't set foot in America.
9 October 2007
at 9:10 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“Please, livingstone, shut up while you're behind. If not for your own sake then for ours. It was hilariously funny reading for a while, but watching your continual self-imolation has become painful.”
You mean you don't respect freedom of speech?
By the way, you didn't apologize for putting words in my mouth and accusing me of saying that Columbus wasn't a criminal.
Obviously, you didn't catch the meaning of debate, and remember, those who dispute Bush's argument for the invasion of Iraq was hilariously laughed at back then. I was one of them.
Change the Constitution before asking me to shut up. I didn't ask you to.
9 October 2007
at 9:15 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“What Hitler was doing wasn't fully known to the rest of the world until after he was dead and the camps were discovered. And way before that the rest of the world rose up to defeat him - it was something called World War II, sorry you missed it, it was in all the papers. Your reality is very, very twisted if you believe the holocaust was “acceptable” behavior at the time.”
Were the Jews being discriminated across Europe? Obviously, you put words in my mouth again. I didn't say that holocaust was an “acceptable” behavior, I was saying “discrimination” against the Jews was an acceptable behavior back then. Obviously, you're trying to twist my language.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelr…
Jews are still being discriminated in some parts of Europe today, in Russia especially. But there isn't a holocaust. Again, trying to put words in my mouth.
9 October 2007
at 10:54 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines, you're such a whiner….. I don't want to argue with you anymore, because you kept on twisting my words and put in your own incorrect interpretations.
“You didn't say discrimination. You said “holocaust.”
This is what I said: Exactly, holocaust was a crime, but at that time, it was “acceptable” for the Germans. Later on, I followed with the statement that it was acceptable for other Europeans to discriminate the Jews. Which I wrote: “During those days in Europe, Jews had to suffer serious consequences and horrific discrimination.”
See that I put “” to my acceptable, and only said that it was “acceptable” to Germans, I didn't say that it was acceptable to Europeans. Remember the fire Germans set on Jews properties? Remember Germans obviously started killing Jews right on the streets before they were sent to the concentration camp? Remember most Germans back then labeled Jews as a sub-human race? The killings of Jews started not on the concentration camp, but right on the street. That didn't happen elsewhere in Europe (the Jews were just discriminated badly).
You said: “6 October 2007 at 8:16 a.m.
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
“To the Native Indians, Columbus was a criminal”“
Bingo!! I did say the Native Indians are the one who treated Columbus as a criminal, not me (I didn't know how many times I have to repeat myself). Which part of the statement shows that I am saying that Columbus was a criminal?
Obviously, you're just a desperate guy trying to say that I'm wrong by twisting my words and even changing the meanings. Nice try but hey, no score.
9 October 2007
at 11:08 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Tell that to the citizens of the Republic of Columbia.”
Obviously you didn't catch my point. Did I ever propose a change to the names of so many places? Even the Native Indians got it wrong for treating Columbus as a criminal and racist. We got him wrong too.
Read this: http://www.answers.com/topic/columbus…
The meaning of Columbus Day is “observed in the United States in commemoration of the landing by Christopher Columbus in 1492 in America”
Obviously, I'm not alone. South Dakota has named it a “Native Americans Day”, Bahamas calls it “Discovery Day”, and “Day of the Race” is popular in many parts of Latin America. What is there to commemorate for man landing in the Carribean? Oh, he landed in a small island in the new world… so? Is that what we're celebrating?
Obviously, I'm not alone.
9 October 2007
at 11:30 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education
“Yes.”
Obviously, you can see how unimportant is Columbus Day. Any unimportant event can make it onto our calendar….
9 October 2007
at 11:44 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“It's not my fault you don't understand the language you're trying to talk in. If all these things that *you said* are not what you *meant*, then for God's sake shut up until you learn to express yourself correctly.”
Obviously, a way to push responsibility. How about you accusing me of labeling Columbus as racist and criminal? Isn't that simple English that I said I didn't? Oh… it's other people's faults, never mine…. what nonsense. Obviously, you apparently didn't want to read my words the way you want to. I'd call that a mental block. Obviously, you're just trying to run away from responsibilities. Wake up kid.
“Please, please, oh great and noble livingroom, if what Columbus did was so ordinary, please regale us with the tales of your own mighty adventures that compare to his humble and obscure act.”
So obviously we should have an Einstein Day? Nobel did great things for the world you know, so why we didn't have a Nobel Day? Mother Teresa (no one can be like her who traveled to a distance country to help thers)? Even the great Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan who pulled down the Berlin wall? There were at least two men who flew around the world (when the plane was so poorly built) and they were all Americans? How about the great Ghenghis Khan who woke up the Europeans somehow? They are all great men, but where did they live? In your history text.
9 October 2007
at 11:47 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Actually, this was all pretty much for amusement, anyway. There's no point in arguing with an illiterate incompetent uneducated slob that whines about life not being fair - 500 years ago.”
First, you called me a BS, then you called me a slob, uneducated, incompetent… wow, the list goes on….
Did I whine that life is not fair? Did I say that it wasn't fair because it was 500 years ago? Columbus Day started in 1971…. 500 years after the conquest…. obviously, you know I'm talking about 1971 and not 1489 right?
9 October 2007
at 12:07 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Go back to answers-com, and see if the West Indies is considered part of the Americas.”
So Mexicans are also part of America…. so why are we calling them illegals? Hmmmmmm….
“Nobody accused you of saying he wasn't. Seems you have no trouble twisting your words all by yourself, stone.”
Obviously you mixed up my postings with the others…. You're accusing me of saying Columbus was a criminal.. check your own posting. Obviously you didn't want to accept responsibilities. “Nobody” means you or who?
“Trust me, stone - we're still laughing hilariously at you, but that's not why.”
Trust me, sometimes, the fools laugh the loudest. The wise men often sit at the corner without any expression. Many great men were laughed at, Vincent Van Goug…. etc… and trust me, wise men never laugh at others…. only fools do. The reason? Because the fools concluded their perceptions too early and didn't get the full picture. The last laugh is the most important laugh.
9 October 2007
at 12:08 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“Considering that I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for this event, it is pretty important to me. Considering that the United States would not exist as it does today but for this event, I think it's pretty important.”
True.
9 October 2007
at 12:16 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Goin' for 400?
( I'm beginning to regret the “discovery.” Curse thee, Christopher! )
9 October 2007
at 12:17 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“Considering that I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for this event, it is pretty important to me. Considering that the United States would not exist as it does today but for this event, I think it's pretty important.”
True. To add to more, without the gun powder invented in China, Europeans would not be able to win the Native Indians. So, does that mean we need to have a China's Gun Powder Day? It's apparently an important event to people of European origins, and thus the Native Indians treated it as unimportant. Thus, the call is not to eliminate Christopher Columbus, but cut away Columbus Day.
9 October 2007
at 12:20 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“Well, Einstein lived in Germany, then Italy, then Switzerland, Poland: ….ou're revising again:
Your limitless knowledge of history and command of the language continues to amaze us:”
Caught you! Columbus was from Italy and lived in Spain, he discovered the Carribean not the mainland in North America.
At least, Einstein lived and died in America during his last days and his idea E=mc2 helped us stopped the Germans and the Japanese. Wasn't that a greater achievement? And all these while, Einstein didn't benefit from the wealth created by the Nuclear history. He was serving America and its ally.
9 October 2007
at 12:30 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
Obviously, you miss out that this argument is for DotsLines. And you miss out my stand on illegal immigration (keep them out). You may want to read my postings before you even comment further on this issue.
9 October 2007
at 12:50 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I get it… another expression of the primordial need to have the last word.
( I can relate. I've been similarly afflicted. But I'm better, now. Won't see me wasting my time in another dead-end forum…. )
9 October 2007
at 12:57 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… no way… not me… nosirrreeeee…
9 October 2007
at 1:06 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… uhn-uh… not on your life… ain't gonna happen…
9 October 2007
at 1:09 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… nope… no-sir-eee, Bob!…
9 October 2007
at 1:09 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“One might argue that escaping Nazi Germany (you know, being Jewish) might have been a pretty big personal motivation.”
So, you're saying that Einstein (where he got his theory while he was still in Europe) was trying to escape Germany so he shouldn't be given much credit and that his stay here was a “big personal motivation”. hmmmm….. so Columbus was here not for “big personal motivation”? Hmmmm…….
9 October 2007
at 1:10 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… cat… tail… gator… ade….
9 October 2007
at 1:12 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Is livingstone more than one person posting under the same name or is he D.I.D.? Or just a jerk who doesn't even remember what's he's saying from post to post?”
Ahhh….. caught you… accusing me again…. When did I have the time to create another name. So you're admitting you cannot accept an alternate point of view right?
Livingstone is livingstone. Just check D.I.D posts… he/she had his/her own postings and links. I'm not alone here….
9 October 2007
at 1:15 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
word
9 October 2007
at 1:19 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education,
“Sorry, I have a tendency to apply common definitions and meanings to words and sentences.”
That's okay. I don't support illegal immigration, I only support legal immigration. My stand is clear. I support the strengthening of our borders, but I also support work permits for some jobs that need to issue some temporary work permits.
“This can be said of ALL scientific discovery. Does that diminish their importance?”
Yes, it diminishes the importance. China is the third country to fly into space, the world didn't celebrate, just China. We're the first country in the world to send a man to walk on the moon, that's celebrated by nearly all countries, except the Soviet Bloc. That's the difference. America has never been discovered, because you cannot discover a land when it's already inhabited. I don't support giving credits to the “Africans” who discovered America nor the Native Indians who also discovered America. So I don't support giving credit to Columbus who “discovered” American.
9 October 2007
at 1:22 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Mein Führer, I can walk!”
9 October 2007
at 1:24 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
logicsounds04,
“There was nothing specific to Columbus' landing that was conducive to the formation of the United States. Any explorer could've confirmed the existence of a land mass in the Western hemisphere, thereby opening the door for European settlement and therefore, the United States.
One thing he did “inspire” (or at least had in common with the colonists) was a disregard for the native inhabitants of the land he'd just “discovered”.”
If we're going to give credit to him, and the later conquest, we'd have to give credit to the Chinese. Without gunpowder, the small tiny population in Europe couldn't colonize the entire world and definitely not America. If both sides used bows and arrows, I bet the Europeans had already died and no more conquest stories. The credit to the Chinese is pretty huge you know. :P
9 October 2007
at 1:26 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“In heaven, everything is fine…”
9 October 2007
at 1:31 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“You boob. Look back up a few posts. I said that myself you imcomprehensible idiot. My comment was referring to your rather limited understanding of the language you're trying to argue in, when you asked where did these “men” (including Mother Teresa) live, and said that they “lived” in history books. God, I don't have to explain things this simple to my five year old.”
Let me compare Mother Teresa and Columbus side by side: Both are Europeans (checked), Both didn't land on the United States of America (no checked, Mother T. came to America at least once). Oh, I don't have command in the language that I'm using… (checked). Sure… God, your five year old is being misled by your bluffs… he/she's too young to understand the nonsense and I bet he/she hasn't got the smallest idea about the Native Indians… cheers.
“So now you're switching to the *mainland* in North America as being the entire New World. Handy.”
I never switch, read my posting that shows you the four maps on where he landed. Carribean has never been considered North America… or should I say you're missing out geography classes? I'm worried for your 5 yo you know…..
“One might argue that escaping Nazi Germany (you know, being Jewish) might have been a pretty big personal motivation.”
Well, Columbus didn't have his “big personal motivation”? Why did he migrate from Italy to Spain in the first place? Or you think he was volunteering without money?
“Yep, history rolls on (and on and on:)”
Yeap, that's the job of the historians, to keep history accurate. If not, America would have sounded a lot like a communist country…. twisted its history.
9 October 2007
at 1:32 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“In heaven, everything is fine:”
Not true. Now, there's an Allah, a God, a Buddha…… hey, who discovered heaven first?
9 October 2007
at 1:33 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… you've got your good things, and I've got mine.”
9 October 2007
at 1:34 p.m.
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RKLOG (Mark Andrew) says…
Columbus Day will soon be a thing of the past, get over it.
9 October 2007
at 1:50 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“: you've got your good things, and I've got mine.”
Your good things cannot be everyone's good thing, you know…. You are free to join any klans, any black panthers, but it's just you, and no one else.
9 October 2007
at 1:52 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“: you've got your good things, and you've got mine.”
9 October 2007
at 1:55 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“Weird, considering:…..”
Great, tell me, what is the “other” name for North America (Canada and USA)? Mexico is called Central America, Jamaica, the Carribean. So what's the USA and Canada?
9 October 2007
at 1:57 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“: you've got your good things, and you've got mine.”
Hey, it's a little too much, care to give me a hand?
9 October 2007
at 2:04 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
All,
I don't know why we call the movie “Conquest of Paradise”…. I bet the Europeans ain't that familiar with beaches back then, and probably all of their beaches were smelled and stink with poobs…. At least, the Europeans found Paradise in the Carribean. I wonder if Columbus found the very cold Canada, he would ever thought of staying, or he'd simply rush back home and tell his masters “hey, they have nothing there, just some more snow that we do here, let's not go there anywhere”. Yes, he found beaches!!! That's where I'm going to this weekend! Those damn good beaches in South Florida, that's Paradise!
9 October 2007
at 2:06 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“I would appreciate it if before your next post that you make sure that you have a basic understanding of the words that you are going to use.”
Sorry for using “North America” inappropriately. At least I apologize. I thought someone else was accusing me of calling Columbus a criminal?
9 October 2007
at 2:07 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous
“Is the midwest a continent? Oooh ooh ooh, let's make California a continent.”
Nope, California is a country… Republic of California! Yeah!
9 October 2007
at 2:11 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Eraserhead
9 October 2007
at 2:31 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Hey, I didn't realize we've passed the 400 mark! Let's make it 500 and keep the record!
9 October 2007
at 2:55 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Let's not…
( and just *say* we did. )
9 October 2007
at 3:17 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Your knowledge of history continues to astound. The even smaller population of Italy alone conquered half the known world 1500 years earlier. So tell us, stone? How many Europeans were there circa 1500? And how many inhabitants of the Americas were there?”
Wow, an honest irresponsible response.
Oh, the Romans were using recruits and slaves… didn't they? Did they “colonize” the world? Wow, that's pretty ignorant. Obviously, Europeans didn't conquer Americas immediately. The process was slow… I though you know that? Wow, the Spanish didn't use gun to fight the Native Indians?… they must have had learned their kungfu fighting skills from Shaolin monks.
http://armscollectors.com/gunhistoryd…, the Europeans already had guns by the time they reached Americas. Obviously, in one of the wars between the Mayans (if I remembered correctly), the Spanish had only a few hundred but thousands and thousands of Mayans…. obviously they had guns. Later on, the “intimate relationship” between the Native Indians and the Europeans helped pass some diseases to them and wipe out quite a lot more Native Indians.
“Look up the Hudson Bay Company and the history of fur trading in Canada, moron.”
Ahhhhh…. someone was accusing the Commie of killing the gorrillas…..
“Gee, I step out for a minute, and you get torn to shreds by other posters before I can even read most of your inaccurate ranting. All your BS posts about the Caribbean not being in America and so forth already got shot down (but 4th_grade_education, when you said “any kindergartner would know that already:”? Apparently livingstone isn't just *any* kindergartener.) Bummer.”
When you stepped out, something happened. We all agree that you're just a jerk. Cheers.
9 October 2007
at 3:18 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Apparently, this *triangle* has two obtuse components…
( which sharply reduces the likelihood of any distant intersection. )
9 October 2007
at 3:20 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Livingstone,
“Interesting moral dilemma there. Obviously nothing justified their methods. But suppose they had discovered a cure for cancer. Should we not have used it if they had?”
Interesting twist, just as you always liked to do…. put something irrelevant and make it relevant. If they had found a cure for cancer, we'd have used it. Only religious leaders would oppose it. The idea of a toxic gas that could kill millions during battle came, ironically, from the Germans (that was why one of the very nice British's saying, the German gas). Nice twist, nice twist.. but hey, as usual, the ranting against some sensible discussion.
9 October 2007
at 3:24 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I'm going to go, now, and let the two of you *date* in private.
( My, just look at the time! It's… October 9th. )
9 October 2007
at 3:27 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“Your knowledge of history continues to astound. The even smaller population of Italy alone conquered half the known world 1500 years earlier. So tell us, stone? How many Europeans were there circa 1500? And how many inhabitants of the Americas were there?”“
By the way, how long did the Romans fought and how many died? Compare that figures to Americas.
9 October 2007
at 3:28 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
anonymous says: “Who's dating?
Breathing Rock and… Pebbles Sticks
( with an occasional tryst involving Little Big Scholar )
9 October 2007
at 3:33 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangent…
“Breathing Rock and: Pebbles Sticks ( with an occasional tryst involving Little Big Scholar )”
I think sticky was trying to push up the that half millennium mark, scholar and rockie are trying to help him.
9 October 2007
at 3:39 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Egad! According to my native-American *traditional* name:
“Arrow Pondering Moon”
I'm a closet GAY!
“ewwwwwwwe”
9 October 2007
at 3:46 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Tangent,
“I'm a closet GAY!”
Who's not gay? Anyone never play with themselves before?
9 October 2007
at 3:53 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Notice: “Four Trees Falling in Forest” speaks, but makes no sound!
9 October 2007
at 4:17 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Hey, it seems like our posting is growing and growing…. looks like the population of India now…. Cheers! Move it quick.
9 October 2007
at 4:18 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
West India?
9 October 2007
at 4:23 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grader,
“Columbus' landing in North America surely furthered the science of geography.”
Nope he didn't. You need geologists make those discovery. He didn't know that was America in the first place, he thought it was India. Hence, Native Indians. He couldn't further the science of geography if someone already know the existence of that land. The best he did was that he confirmed the land only for Europeans, probably you could accredit him to further geography for Europe. At that time, I strongly believe the Mayans already had their own “geography” (if not how did they build those temples etc.), but the texts were simply burnt…. China, Arabs…. all had their “geographies”….
9 October 2007
at 4:25 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“I decided to have an intelligent conversation with someone who actually *thinks*”
I didn't know that you know how to. Cheers.
9 October 2007
at 4:27 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangent,
“West India?”
Oh, who found “West India”?
9 October 2007
at 4:32 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“… didn't many people believe that the world was flat prior to 1492?”
Whut do you mean, “before” 1492?
9 October 2007
at 4:37 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“But geographic exploration is not something that lends itself to the scientific method.”
Generally, geographic exploration wants its money up front.
9 October 2007
at 4:46 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
“And the consolidation and standardization of global understanding of geography does not further the science of geography? I'm sorry, didn't many people believe that the world was flat prior to 1492? Didn't that change in large part because of Columbus' voyage?”
Nope. The “Many people” are generally Europeans and Christians.
Before the Europeans embarked on this journey to “conquer” the world, they thought that the rest of the world civilizations were “less smart” than them. In fact, many didn't treat the Native Indians as civilized. Nearly all the books by the Mayans were burnt. They thought that Christianity was the correct way of live and nothing else. The Mayan sciences were burn.
On the other sides of the planet, sciences were already bubbling. Elsewhere in the Arab World, India, China, Mongolia, Majuphahit (Southeast Asian) empire. Their scientific methods and research methods were very different from the western methods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
The Arabic World had already acknowledged that the world is round since 1200s and when did the voyage started?
Zheng Ho, the Chinese Admiral, who went around the world and reached as far as West Africa, had already acknowledged that the world is round.
So what is there to prove except to the Europeans? Embarrassingly, it's the Europeans who wanted to eliminate the knowledge that had been created around the world and make everything starts from point zero.
So largely, Columbus was there to prove to the Europeans that the earth is round. The Chinese and Arabs already acknowledged and confirmed it. Who know the Mayans know already?
9 October 2007
at 4:47 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Didn't many people believe that the world was flat until 1492?”
Whut do you mean, “until” 1492?
9 October 2007
at 4:48 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“Didn't many people believe that the world was flat until 1492?”
Nope, I had already proved to you that only Europeans believed the world was flat. The Arabs and Chinese already knew the earth is round. The “many people” were in Europe. Unless you refuse to believe in the sciences from China and Arabia?
9 October 2007
at 4:49 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
And, while we're on the topic, whut do you mean…
“Nope. The “Many people” are generally Europeans and Christians.
Before the Europeans embarked on this journey to “conquer” the world, they thought that the rest of the world civilizations were “less smart” than them. In fact, many didn't treat the Native Indians as civilized. Nearly all the books by the Mayans were burnt. They thought that Christianity was the correct way of live and nothing else. The Mayan sciences were burn.
On the other sides of the planet, sciences were already bubbling. Elsewhere in the Arab World, India, China, Mongolia, Majuphahit (Southeast Asian) empire. Their scientific methods and research methods were very different from the western methods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
The Arabic World had already acknowledged that the world is round since 1200s and when did the voyage started?
Zheng Ho, the Chinese Admiral, who went around the world and reached as far as West Africa, had already acknowledged that the world is round.
So what is there to prove except to the Europeans? Embarrassingly, it's the Europeans who wanted to eliminate the knowledge that had been created around the world and make everything starts from point zero.
So largely, Columbus was there to prove to the Europeans that the earth is round. The Chinese and Arabs already acknowledged and confirmed it. Who know the Mayans know already?”
9 October 2007
at 4:54 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines ,
How come you mis-read everyone's postings? Even 4th Grade!
“You need a geologist to discover continents?”
4th grade was saying Columbus contribute to the science of geography. He didn't say discover continent. Again, you slap on your own face. No one discover the continent, unless you're saying that Europeans were the only human beings around?
I said: “I strongly believe the Mayans already had their own “geography” (if not how did they build those temples etc.),”
You said: “That would be architecture. Often confused with geography - by morons, at least.”
The geography of China and Arabs were far more superior than the Europeans before 1500. The Christian missionaries burnt all the Mayans literatures, jealous? They already had their own astronomy, mathematics, and even geography. Watch History Channel, it can be an eye opener for you.
9 October 2007
at 5:01 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Does the consolidation of the knowledge of various geographic knowledge bases further the science of geography or not?”
It furthers the science of not.
9 October 2007
at 5:07 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Well, at least he's thinking!
9 October 2007
at 5:11 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I assure you, sir, I do not consider Columbus Day to be a “joking” matter.
9 October 2007
at 5:33 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“I just did a quick search and discovered that Columbus Day was celebrated in the United States in 1792, 1892, 1866, and 1869.”
I can understand 17- and 1892, but 1866?
( In 1869, they just needed to find some way to entertain the 500 remnants of the Timberstock festival in upstate New York. )
9 October 2007
at 5:39 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
You know, the 500th poster wins tickets to the Columbus Day celebration in Denver, next year!
Second and third place (501st and 502nd posters)… Austin, Texas.
9 October 2007
at 5:48 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“And Europeans don't qualify as many people? Changing the minds of (speculating on the number) millions of people doesn't further global understanding of geography?”
Europeans' understanding. If they'd have looked further into the Arabia, they'd have gotten the answer that the earth is actually around. I like your word “global”…. how does European's understanding of geography (that earth is round) being global when China, India and Arab (should have twice or more population than Europe at that time) already knew that the earth is round? It's like the Europeans say: It's not going to be science until it's in our book. Pretty bigotry….. that is the mindset that started the colonized and exploitation process!
The knowledge that earth is round is always there, indeed, there are evidences that the Arabs were teaching the Europeans that the earth is in fact round! Zheng Ho, amongst others, showed foreign delegates to the emperor, and many European missionaries were impressed with the knowledge of the East. One of the knowledge was that the earth is round. In fact, that knowledge had already been passed on to Europe to only a small proportion of Europeans. Again, bigotry Europeans refused to acknowledge that the world was far superior.
So, what is so great about the “discovery” of Columbus?
9 October 2007
at 5:55 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“thinks Columbus' name was forgotten until Irving's book;”
Nope, Columbus was always remembered by morons, like yourself.
“thinks Mother Teresa was a man;”
I thought she was the pope?
“thinks geologists are needed to discover continents;”
No, the chims discovered North America! They walked in from Africa!
“thinks geographers build temples;”
You heard of the subject in civil engineering called surveying?
“thinks the discovery of North America furthered European geography;”
You thought that Europe was the only place with “knowledge”?
“thinks the Caribbean is not part of America;”
I thought it's a bean?
“thinks Mexico is part of Central America;”
Hmmmm… they're the United States of America!
“thinks the holocaust was considered acceptable at the time;”
Why not?
“thinks Bill Clinton should be in the company of MLK and JFK;”
Hey, at least he has a few women… how many MLK and JFK have?
“can't tell the difference between “logicsound” and his own name when replying to posts;”
Ah…… sounds like another accusation….
“can't use basic English, apparently not understanding the difference between “was” and “wasn't”“
Amigos!
“thinks the people who have refuted his drivel are supporting his argument:.”
Hey, at least, I'm trying my best to get to the 500 mark!
9 October 2007
at 5:57 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“I say we nominate livingstone to go as our representative - dressed as Columbus.”
That'll be quite a departure from his usual attire. Couldn't he just go as Isabella?
9 October 2007
at 5:59 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
“Because until they are in agreement, the global understanding of geography is less than what it would be once consolidation occurs. Imagine if Newton had kept his findings of gravity to himself. Or, imagine if Einstein had kept the theory of relativity to himself. My question is:
Does the spreading of scientific knowledge further science?”
The Arabs and Chinese didn't kept the knowledge to themselves. If not, how did gun powder get to Europe? If not how come Marco Polo brought back to Europe so much knowledge? The Europeans refused to listen, that was the problem. I think many Europeans still refuse to listen today.
The Arabs share their accounting skills with the Europeans. We called that bookkeeping. They invented the theory call “0”….. if not, how is nothingness defined? The Chinese invited many Europeans, including Missionaries to China for visits and hoped they could bring things back to Europe to “open their minds”… but what did the Europeans did? They picked and choose selectively, and then used them against others. And called everything their own discovery.
Opposite to your claims, the Arabs and Chinese were more than willing to share their knowledge, but the Europeans refused to listen and “stole” ideas and made them theirs.
9 October 2007
at 6:01 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
“That'll be quite a departure from his usual attire. Couldn't he just go as Isabella?”
I don't like Isabella.. I like Britney!
9 October 2007
at 6:04 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Hey, at least, I'm trying my best to get to the 500 mark!”
Ah… mindless male bonding… and we have a 15th-Century, pig-headed egotist to thank for it.
9 October 2007
at 6:07 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
Recently, there's a program on the Native Indians' inventions that were burned by the European settlers and missionaries. There were many knowledge and inventions by the empires, but they were burn and all were gone. Things are then rediscovered later on, and of course the credits go to the Europeans. This is a nice way of the Europeans for trying to clean up the pasts so that everything began with them. If no missionaries burn the knowledge and books, I thought many discoveries and knowledge could have been associated with the Indians.
9 October 2007
at 6:08 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
“Does the spreading of scientific knowledge further science?”
It does. The spread of the Arabic scientific knowledge further science too. Any spreading of scientific knowledge further science. How can you attribute that to Europeans or Columbus?
9 October 2007
at 6:11 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
4th Grade,
“Does the spreading of scientific knowledge further science?”
Of course, the European settlers could have spent time reading through the Mayan texts and not burnt them, and reinvent the wheels. The “Western” way of doing research somehow is borrowed from the Arab world, and later on got mixed with the gregorian priests' method of analyzing the bible. So European discovery doesn't contribute to the spread of scientific knowledge, in fact, they hijacked the spread.
9 October 2007
at 6:12 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“Next question:
Did Columbus' landing in North America assist in spreading the idea that the world was round?”
NO!
9 October 2007
at 6:14 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“Next question:
Did Columbus' landing in North America assist in spreading the idea that the world was round?”
NO! He didn't reach the real India, and didn't continue from India back to Europe. The earth could still be flat! If he had successfully reached India and then travel back to Europe back to India, then the earth is round. He completed half his task and that task didn't prove that the earth is round.
9 October 2007
at 6:16 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Did Columbus' landing in North America assist in spreading the idea that the world was round?”
Uh… the world is spherical… -ish.
9 October 2007
at 6:19 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“There are only two ways to answer this question. 'Yes' or 'no.'
Did Columbus' landing in North America assist in spreading the idea that the world was round?”
NO! The idea had already existed in other more populous part of the world. The best claim is only “spreading the idea to Europeans”. The World means China, India, Arabs, Africa…. which at all means, already know that the earth is round. Columbus didn't reach India and China and then traveled back to Europe from there. So, he didn't prove that the earth is round!
9 October 2007
at 6:20 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“As a follow-up to my last question:
Did Columbus' landing in North America assist in Europeans' understanding of geography?”
Yes, he did. So Europeans should be celebrating him. Why Americans?
9 October 2007
at 6:20 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
uh… it's orbular….
9 October 2007
at 6:27 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Granted, I once had an inflatable globe, and, when it deflated, it could have been described as being “round”… -ish.
I called it “Pangea Ultima,” because, when properly smooshed, all the continents fit together.
9 October 2007
at 6:29 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“So, it did assist in spreading the idea that the world was round? After all, Europeans are people too, right?”
… just not very well-rounded….
( although, apparently many of them are quite orbulent! )
9 October 2007
at 6:30 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“So, it did assist in spreading the idea that the world was round? After all, Europeans are people too, right?”
That was not Columbus was celebrated for.
9 October 2007
at 6:32 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“I called it 'Pangea Ultima'…”
In fact, I discovered it.
Someday, the One-World Order will name a Day after me….
9 October 2007
at 6:35 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
You're really a 4th grade.
“So you must now agree that Columbus' landing furthered the science of geography. Even though:
me: “Columbus' landing in North America surely furthered the science of geography.”
you: Nope he didn't.”
“me: “Did Columbus' landing in North America assist in Europeans' understanding of geography?”
you: Yes, he did. So Europeans should be celebrating him. Why Americans?”
What a moron! He assisted Europeans in understanding geography from their point of view, but his landing didn't further geography as a whole world of knowledge. The knowledge of geography was already there, so how can he contribute to that body of knowledge? The body of knowledge comes from the world.
If you understand science, a discovery made in South Korea but never anywhere in the world belongs to the world. A later discovery made by India, for example, doesn't add to the body of knowledge. Why are you slapping yourself?
9 October 2007
at 6:37 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“In fact, I discovered it.
Someday, the One-World Order will name a Day after me:.”
You guys are talking scientific discovery. If there is an existing knowledge, it's no longer a scientific discovery. It's not a One-World Order, in science, there is only one authority, unlike religions.
9 October 2007
at 6:40 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
“So you must now agree that Columbus' landing furthered the science of geography. Even though:
me: “Columbus' landing in North America surely furthered the science of geography.”
you: Nope he didn't.”
“me: “Did Columbus' landing in North America assist in Europeans' understanding of geography?”
you: Yes, he did. So Europeans should be celebrating him. Why Americans?”
An understanding of the science of geography is not equal to furthering the sciences of geography. Theory of relativity was discovered long time ago, but understanding that theory occured later. So the “understanding” and the “discovery” are two things.
9 October 2007
at 6:47 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“It's not a One-World Order, in science….”
… but it is a OWO in 'Pangea Ultima'!”
9 October 2007
at 6:47 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th Grade,
“Doesn't the learning of this discovery by other people further science?”
First, it's not a discovery if it's already known. It won't help people further science if it's just understanding. Any kids in high school will be taught and they will understand the theory of relativity, does that further science? Maybe. But until that kids become interested, and pursue Ph.D. in Physics and discover more than the theory of relativity, there's nothing to further “science”. It's just the spread of knowledge. Nothing else is discovered when you spread it.
“If it belongs to the world, doesn't the world need to know about it and accept it?”
The fact that earth is round existed long before Columbus' trip and had been widely accepted by the Arabs and Chinese. The World need to know what? Accept what?
“Didn't Columbus' landing provide the vehicle for the spreading of geographic knowledge hidden by other cultures and some that had not even been discovered yet?”
It's not hidden by other cultures. The Arabs and Chinese actually broadcasted it real loud and clear and invited even Europeans over there! It was never hidden. Mark my words, it was never HIDDEN.
9 October 2007
at 6:49 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
4th_grade_education (Anonymous) says:
“This is ridiculous.
You are arguing that science is not furthered by the education of others. Why do we bother teaching science in schools?”
Understanding Science and Discovering Science are two actions. You are trying to put two together. Columbus did spread the understanding of science, but his voyage didn't discover any science. The science was already there!
9 October 2007
at 6:52 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“It's not a One-World Order, in science:.”
: but it is a OWO in 'Pangea Ultima'!”
Then human can walk to the other corner… and all become flat again….
9 October 2007
at 7:40 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… not to worry… we all know that there are lurkers, out there, just waiting to place that final “eBay bid” and claim the prize!
9 October 2007
at 7:59 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
seven
9 October 2007
at 8 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
six
9 October 2007
at 8 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
five
9 October 2007
at 8:01 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
four
9 October 2007
at 8:02 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Ï
9 October 2007
at 8:03 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Oh, nooooooo, it's an asymptote!
9 October 2007
at 8:40 p.m.
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oldgoof (Anonymous) says…
Just was trying for the 500th prize
9 October 2007
at 8:49 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
You win!
( quick, duck and cover! )
9 October 2007
at 9:13 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“The earth could still be flat!” “Which is about as intelligent a thing as he'd ever said.”
Ask Thomas Friedman….
“As fun as this might have been once, I leave livingstone to recite his rhetoric without an audience. Maybe he'll make it to 500 (I can't figure out who he thinks he's still talking to), getting whatever fun he can find continuing the intercourse with himself.”
Hahahaha, wrong, I didn't win the 500th price.
I know who I'm talking to…. people who didn't use their brain.
9 October 2007
at 9:30 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Captain_Obvious,
I stoned to death anyone who smurf with me, using Stone Dung. Dotted Lines must be filled with stinko dung by now.
10 October 2007
at 9:02 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
logicsound04,
Someone here suspects that I'm you….. or I've created you to mirror my message….. but the first difference I see if that your writing style is very different from mine. But at least we agree on most issues.
10 October 2007
at 9:23 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
the thing that wouldn't die!
10 October 2007
at 10:06 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“the thing that wouldn't die!”
We always thought that sub-10 100m wasn't possible.
10 October 2007
at 10:11 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
logicsound04 (Anonymous) says:
“livingstone,
If you did create me, that would be a pretty intricate deception, as my profile has existed since 7/5/2005. :)
I'm a bit flattered, as this is the first time I've been suspected of being one of multiple user names under a single user.”
Just as Columbus thought that he was the “first man” to have discovered Americas….. many people here are just trying to find an excuse to justify Columbus Day.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/10/colu…
With this happening so frequently, how could we start a real racial integration and start calling everyone Americans?
10 October 2007
at 10:31 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
I'm waiting for this to happen…….. a drunk man uttering nonsenses to himself.
It's like he's trying to say that Hillary and Obama are the same person, and no two persons can agree on the same issue. Good try.
By the way, logicsounds04, are you originally from Kansas?
10 October 2007
at 11:13 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
logicsound04,
I'm born and raised in a small town outside San Diego, in the “Republic of California”…. ;P
Dotted Lines still couldn't figure out who's who here….
10 October 2007
at 11:37 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Ohhhhh yeahhhhhh….. the 600th marks…. DotsLines couldn't find anything to say….. I will try to help you anyway… my pleasure always!
10 October 2007
at 11:41 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Obama ain't black enough, Hillary ain't feminine enough….. Now I understand why there are such knuckle heads around…. Oh! Obama is Hillary and Hillary is Obama! Yeah!! Cheney is Bush and Bush is Cheney!!! Yeah!!
logicsound04, what's your sign-in password? I could use it to “imitate” you…. Also, yeap, for some Californians still think Arnie is a Democrat (too liberal to be a Republican)…. hey, who says you got to be conservative to be a Republican or a liberal to be a Dem? Some people think that Ron Paul is too liberal to be a Republican, but I think he's too liberal to be a Dem too! He should be a Green or Libertarian… hey, that's stereotying at work!
Cheers! Hillary for President 08!
10 October 2007
at 1:57 p.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
I just keep looking at this and thinking, “Oh, it's so clear now! The solution to ending racial and cultural prejudices is just renaming stuff until we homogenize *language*! How silly of me not to get it!”
10 October 2007
at 6:54 p.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
Actually, sweet cheeks, I do get it. I'm just an advocate of significant and meaningful change, as opposed to socially progressive linguistic palliatives that distract from the fact that no matter what you call the day he's celebrated on, there still remain a lot of people who don't find anything wrong with the exploitation of indigenous people touched off by Columbus' arrival, and that *changing the name of a holiday will do jack-all to change their minds*.
By the same token, I still say mailman, policeman, and waitress instead of postal carrier, police officer, and server. I use 'he' as the gender-neutral singular pronoun when I feel like it, and call ships 'she'. Why?
Because I refuse to play the self-indulgent masturbatory wordsmithing game until the words are actually reflective of social attitudes. Anything else promotes a dangerous sense of complacency. We have not changed the ideas those words represent, and I will use those words as a flag to remind myself of that fact until those ideas are changed.
When people at large begin to take seriously the wrongs inflicted on the indigenous peoples of the Americas, either the meaning or the observance of 'Columbus Day' will change. That's a little more important than empty proclamations from the powerless city council of a college town in Kansas.
10 October 2007
at 8:24 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
“That's a little more important than empty proclamations from the powerless city council of a college town in Kansas.”
Oliver L. Brown et.al. v. the Board of Education of Topeka (KS) happened in the small city of Topeka.
10 October 2007
at 10:11 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous: …
11 October 2007
at 12:05 a.m.
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myhrmayd1 (Anonymous) says…
Why not have a 'unity day' where everyone of every race comes together to revel in our differences?!?!
If I remember correctly..waaaaaaaay back when America was becomming America, the whole point was that we're a melting pot of cultures.
Sooooooo…why not get everyone together, and share our differences. Perhaps then, they wouldn't be scary and invoke fear and hatred….
Just a thought
11 October 2007
at 2:23 a.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
And livingstone, you get something into a court of law, you get anti-discrimination and hate crime legislation with teeth in it before a legislative body, you make actual changes in school curriculum, and then I'll call it other than a meaningless smoke-and-mirrors gesture. A 'proclamation from the city council' changes no law, changes no practice, and is unlikely to change any minds. It's just fancy self-indulgent word games and political posturing on an issue that's seen far too little of substance already.
Comparing “Hey guys, let's say we really think the name of this holiday ought to be changed and we're gonna call it somethin' diff'rent in Lawrence now (but no one else has to if they don't want because we don't like our version of 'making a stand' to actually upset anyone outside our constituency…)!” with the landmark Brown vs the Board of Education that forced a reconsideration of segregation law across the nation is almost as laughable as it is insulting.
Change all the names you want, sparky. But don't expect people who want real change to be pleased that you've wasted your energy on hollow feel-good gestures that only detract from the reality that there's been no change of substance and there's unlikely to be any so long as a significant number of self-proclaimed 'activists' are obsessing over things like this. Think about it. The longer they hold you out over Columbus Day before they ultimately give in, the more likely it is that you'll be distracted by your 'victory' for a little longer - distracted enough to forget about addressing actual issues of poverty, resource theft, discrimination, substandard medical care, and an indifferent approach to ensuring your children have schools. They hold bones like this over you because they know if they tease long enough, when they finally give you the biscuit you'll fawn and wag for them.
I used to have patience for that sort of wasted energy and symbolic victory. I could look at people like you in a movement and delude myself into thinking that your enthusiasm to make any change at all represented the possibility of 'chipping away' at established prejudices, that your focus on symbolic victories was waging the war against hate in its own way even if you never effected demonstrable change yourselves. No more. I only count as gains the changes that make actual substantive differences in the lives of the disenfranchised. Changes in law. Changes in established policy. Changes in things that will stand longer than public opinion. Because a 'proclamation from the city council' can be set aside or re-proclaimed a different way under a new council, and then your 'hard-won victory' is meaningless and fleeting.
11 October 2007
at 7:44 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I've looked for a “Suggest removal” link for this article, but can't seem to find one….
11 October 2007
at 8:46 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger (Anonymous) says:
“And livingstone, you get something into a court of law, you get anti-discrimination and hate crime legislation”
Look at what you said: “That's a little more important than empty proclamations from the powerless city council of a college town in Kansas.”
I was replying you that a small town of Lawrence can do something big for this country. That is the most significant case ever in Topeka. Topeka can do something for the country, why not Lawrence? Why why why….. people has to misinterpret the meaning!
11 October 2007
at 8:49 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“I've looked for a “Suggest removal” link for this article, but can't seem to find one:.”
That's censorship. LJ World will only remove vulgarity and not debate. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me, fine. Move on!
11 October 2007
at 9:11 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“That's censorship. LJ World will only remove vulgarity….”
vulgar |&*&char114&*& vÉlgÉr|
adjective
lacking sophistication or good taste; unrefined : the vulgar trappings of wealth.
¢ making explicit and offensive reference to sex or bodily functions; coarse and rude : a vulgar joke.
¢ [dated] characteristic of or belonging to the masses.
aloha…
11 October 2007
at 9:14 a.m.
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jafs (Anonymous) says…
I am fairly horrified by much of the posting on this subject.
Even many who call this what it was seem unconcerned about it - it was simply the conquest of a less technologically developed society by a more technologically developed one, for example.
What is there to celebrate about that??
As with slavery and the mistreatment of black people, our country has a significant amount of violence and brutality at it's beginning and through it's history.
I am personally saddened and ashamed by this history.
Badger, while I completely understand your point (and agree to some extent), I think sometimes symbolic actions can at least bring attention to issues and force some amount of discourse about them, which may be valuable.
Peace.
11 October 2007
at 9:19 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Tangent,
“aloha:”
I bet you know aloha has more meaning than simply “greeting”…. it's being more “open”…. which means, you accept vulgarity too… and you try to “censor”? What irony?
11 October 2007
at 9:24 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
jafs (Anonymous) says:
“I am fairly horrified by much of the posting on this subject.
Even many who call this what it was seem unconcerned about it - it was simply the conquest of a less technologically developed society by a more technologically developed one, for example.”
Exactly why Columbus wanted to go the other way: To avoid the Arabs who were controlling the trading route to the East. In fact, if you view Columbus from the Arab's point of view (where the Arabs were technologically more advanced at that time), he was a “coward” trying to avoid confrontation (war) with the Arabs….. Maybe he was wiser, since at that time, a war between the Arabs and Europe would have brought down Columbus and his continent to their knees.
Yeap, so winning the less technological Native Indians… what's there to celebrate? If we curse the crusade today, what an irony to celebrate a crusade against a technologically weaker civilization (indeed it was a crusade as the other things the Spainish brought here was Christianity)?
11 October 2007
at 9:32 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
JAFS says: “I am fairly horrified by much of the posting on this subject….”
“Son, this ain't no western movie matinee
And you're a long way off from yippee yi yay
'Cause I can tell at a glance
You're not from 'round these parts
Got a green look about ya
And that's a gringo for starts
Sometimes the only thing a western savage understands
Are whiskey and rifles… and an unarmed man, like you.”
- Wall of Voodoo
11 October 2007
at 9:37 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
I wonder if the Russians ever taught in their history book that they “discovered” Siberia…. ha ha ha!
11 October 2007
at 9:54 a.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
livingstone said: “I was replying you that a small town of Lawrence can do something big for this country. That is the most significant case ever in Topeka. Topeka can do something for the country, why not Lawrence? Why why why:.. people has to misinterpret the meaning!”
If I could parse your grammar, I might echo your 'why why why…people has to misinterpret the meaning!'
Let's actually look at what I said.
“That's a little more important than empty proclamations”
By 'empty proclamations' I mean statements that change no law or policy. There are hundreds if not thousands of state, local, and federal proclamations every year. They're PR opportunities for a politician to look good for a group that managed to press the politician into a 'show of support'. Once he's given that, the pressure on him to take real action is relieved, and he can go back to futzing around with smoking ordinances and commissioning planning studies.
“from the powerless city council”
The city council can't enact laws changing the way settlement history is taught in school. They can't change state or federal law. Heck, they can't even require a citizen standing in front of the City Hall to call it something other than Columbus Day, or businesses to stop having Columbus Day Sales. All they can do is say “Hey, we agree with them!” and without some sort of real change, that's a very nice gesture, but effectively useless.
“of a college town in Kansas.”
This seems to be the only part of my sentence you read. It's the least important part. I don't know how many more ways I can say “Brown changed law and desegregation policy. Because it changed law it substantially affected segregation in this country. It had a significant impact on the civil rights movement because it addressed the Constitutional position on segregation. Topeka may claim credit for it, but the real action happened at the Supreme Court. Where they decide what laws mean. Because they have the power to do that. Because they're the Supreme Court.”
This 'proclamation' being asked for isn't even a legal case. No chance for it to go to the Supreme Court, no pressure on legislators to play ball for all of Kansas, nothing. No legal changes, just “Hey, Lawrence, this is what we think!” Your comparison demonstrates a profound ignorance of the significance of Brown and the power in a city council proclamation.
(BTW, Brown had some 200 plaintiffs in five cases across four states. It was a lot more than just Topeka affecting the world.)
11 October 2007
at 10:04 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
537 posts and counting… someone still badgering livingstone, I presume…?
11 October 2007
at 10:08 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
Let me show you more examples:
1. A tiny black woman in Alabama and the civil rights movement. Though it was already a national movement, but that woman made that little contribution and put fuel on the fire.
2. One tiny Mother Teresa
3. One man in Bangladesh who started the bank that loans to poor women initiated a trend throughout the poor countries.
It just take one person, one effort to put fuel on the existing fire. Anyone can make the difference, even Lawrence, KS.
11 October 2007
at 10:11 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“537 posts and counting: someone still badgering livingstone, I presume:?”
Realize that the topic actually changes…..
11 October 2007
at 10:17 a.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
jafs said:
“Badger, while I completely understand your point (and agree to some extent), I think sometimes symbolic actions can at least bring attention to issues and force some amount of discourse about them, which may be valuable.”
Symbolic actions can have value, true. But this issue has attention, and you can see from the postings here the sort of attention the renaming discussion brings from people looking for a reason to dismiss the concerns of indigenous peoples as trivial.
The tribal communities have much bigger fish to fry, and people waste time and energy on this garbage. How many kids in tribal populations (on and off reservations) will go to college? How many will graduate high school? How many have decent medical care and full bellies right now (New Mexico and Arizona, I'm lookin' at you)? How many families and communities are torn apart by alcoholism and hopelessness? All of these problems, which are rampant in tribal communities, very likely stem from abuses by white America. I'll never deny that. But this hectoring over names and who did what four hundred years ago is tantamount to treating pneumonia by giving the patient some lipstick and a pretty hat. Sure, the situation might look a little better to the casual observer, but medical care would probably have a better effect, and the patient's 'new look' might fool that casual observer into not looking any closer.
It's a matter of choosing your battles. It will take a lot of energy to win this one, and even if you completely 'win' the battle all it can possibly do is 'raise awareness'. What if the same energy were applied to raising people out of poverty, improving their chances at education, getting them decent health care? Even if you only reached half your goals on any of those three, you've still improved the lives of thousands of people without even 'winning'.
What if, instead of 'raising awareness' about the way Christopher Columbus is taught, people spent the same energy and money 'raising awareness' about the thousands living in abject poverty? Which symbol do you think it's better to etch in people's minds: Columbus as a jerk or a hungry child being helped by compassionate people?
11 October 2007
at 10:25 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
“The tribal communities have much bigger fish to fry, and people waste time and energy on this garbage. How many kids in tribal populations (on and off reservations) will go to college? How many will graduate high school? How many have decent medical care and full bellies right now (New Mexico and Arizona, I'm lookin' at you)? How many families and communities are torn apart by alcoholism and hopelessness? All of these problems, which are rampant in tribal communities, very likely stem from abuses by white America. I'll never deny that. But this hectoring over names and who did what four hundred years ago is tantamount to treating pneumonia by giving the patient some lipstick and a pretty hat. Sure, the situation might look a little better to the casual observer, but medical care would probably have a better effect, and the patient's 'new look' might fool that casual observer into not looking any closer.”
Yeap, white men brought a lot of good stuffs to those savages, who didn't have modern medical care, full bellies, alcoholism, hopelessness….. that's quite a bigotry…. the same reason why Europeans came here and found “savages” in the first place. And of course, white men were just killing the same way the Mayans were killing themselves. The Mayans didn't have colleges to educate their people, they didn't know how to plant their own food, didn't know how to cultivate, didn't know how to fight with guns…..
Oh, of course, Africa…. those people were living in dung huts, and fighting with bows and arrows. They should be given guns and educated in colleges, believe in Christ…..
Really, bigotry.
Just wonder how did they survive before the Europeans reached them…… without those college education, bigger fishes, bigger pieces of meat….. the Europeans really “contributed” a lot…..
11 October 2007
at 10:26 a.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
livingstone, I don't see where Rosa Parks and Mother Teresa demanded proclamations from the city council in support of their actions. They were too busy, well, acting. Nor, if you really want to draw more irrelevant comparisons, did Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, or the students in Tien An Men Square. I'm not saying a single person can't change the world. I'm saying that:
This.
Is not.
The way.
To do it.
Get active for real social change, and people will follow you. This hashing out what to call a holiday no one actually celebrates (unless you call a three-day white sale some racially perverse way of celebrating it…) is hardly going to galvanize a movement of right-minded people in your support.
11 October 2007
at 10:32 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
“Columbus as a jerk or a hungry child being helped by compassionate people?”
Nope, he wasn't a jerk. He was just a man who was on a Spanish mission, avoiding direct confrontation with the Arabs and tried to find another way to India.
1. He wasn't trying to find America.
2. He didn't discover America.
3. He wasn't help America.
4. He didn't find India and China.
5. He wasn't trying to prove that the earth is round (or spherical).
6. He wasn't trying to help the Native Indians.
7. He wasn't trying to develop all the modern luxuries.
8. He wasn't trying to spread science.
He was on a mission commissioned by the Spanish monarchy. If we had war with the British against “colonization”, why are we still “worshipping” someone who's original intent was so close to what the British was doing?
11 October 2007
at 10:39 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I don't feel like teaching you the right history, but just pointed out that you're using a twisted history book.
“But while the Arabs (at great cost and taking hundreds of years) were able to hold off the Europeans, they did not exactly sweep in and invade Italy and Spain.”
Look at the map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ag…
Spain became part of Arab's land…… once.
“Columbus' desire to find a shipping route to the Far East had nothing to do with the Arabs being in his way. Especially in a time before railroads, shipping was the best way to move goods, much preferred over traveling overland.”
The real history: The silk road route was established by Marco Polo between 1271 and 1274. The route was thousands of miles long and took months to travel. The route was dangerous because robbers would loot the traders of their goods. Fine, but the Europeans didn't make those trips, the trips were made by individuals who brought the goods at a shorter distance.
In 1435, the Ottoman Empire blocked the European trade route to the Far East. If the Europeans wanted to continue trading with the Far East, they would have to find another route. If not, a direct confrontation would be unavoidable… but Ottoman Empire was pretty powerful at that time. Sorry, they weren't Arabs by the way.
What's wrong with your history text?
11 October 2007
at 10:40 a.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
Wow. Speaking of ad hominem…
You're just not reading any more, are you? I never said that those problems didn't stem from white abuses (that was in the part where I said “All of these problems, which are rampant in tribal communities, very likely stem from abuses by white America. I'll never deny that.” You quoted it). I said they're more deserving of attention than holiday name changes. Wherever they came from, they're big problems now, and whether fixing them means improved government funding, better legislation, better community structure, more support for organizations that help their communities, tribal leaders and activists are far better served by dedicating their activities to the real problems facing their people than to demanding name changes and hoping that just because white America *caused* the poverty, it will suddenly pull its head out and *fix* the poverty. Hey. instead of marching for a name change, why not march for poverty relief?
Children are starving. Today. Right now. When that's happening, semantic political considerations about the communities those children are in need to go out the window. I've done what I can do short of going there and making them food myself (letter-writing, advocacy, donations). When it comes to poverty, kids, and education, I'm a lot of things, but 'bigot' doesn't even begin to apply.
Every child in this country or any other deserves to go to sleep with a full belly tonight. Way too many won't. So, yeah, calling me a bigot for telling you that your insistence on wasting your efforts on something like this when you could be demanding better medical care instead, that's probably pretty asinine on your part.
11 October 2007
at 10:44 a.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
logicsound, if I ever saw people dedicating the same sort of energy to fighting poverty in tribal communities that I see livingstone expending here, I'd agree with you.
But I don't.
11 October 2007
at 10:47 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
You realized that the Ottoman Empire was pretty powerful one time in history right? The Muslim World was pretty large right? Yet, surprisingly, they didn't colonize many parts of the world.
http://www.princeton.edu/~humcomp/ott…
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~rs143/map6…
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~rs143/map2…
In fact, those expansions nearly brought many Europeans to their knees. But luckily Columbus found another way to improve the situation. So Columbus did help the Europeans a lot, by finding another route that would avoid direct confrontation with the emerging Arabs.
So, at that time, things were different….
11 October 2007
at 10:57 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger (Anonymous) says:
“logicsound, if I ever saw people dedicating the same sort of energy to fighting poverty in tribal communities that I see livingstone expending here, I'd agree with you.”
Fighting poverty isn't about giving a good name to Christopher Columbus. The National Science Foundation kept on promoting the use of “role model” for minorities. While the majority has good examples in life to follow, many minorities didn't have. The majority has George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc. etc….. The black only has Martin Luther King. There isn't a good one for the Native Indians. We cannot give them Christopher Columbus…. they will definitely reject.
Why are we talking about fighting poverty?
I love what the Bhutan's King once said: “Even our GNP per capita is one of the lowest in the world, but our Happiness per capita is the highest in the world.”
Bhutan was left untouched by colonization, they remained economically poor ($1,400), their poverty level marked by modern definition is considered extremely high (31.74%). They were not dying in the millions or struck by hunger etc… like in Africa. Their society remains very primitive but what they have are enough for themselves. So, they are economically poor by today's definition, but their lives are pretty well-off and meaningful. I don't even call Bhutan an impoverished nation! They have plenty to eat (not much meat though, it's a buddhist country), and they don't have many hungry people! I wonder what kind of poverty we have to fight in Bhutan?
This is the best example of how a tribe left alone will be much better than to introduce them all new modern technology and make them more impoverished…..
11 October 2007
at 11:02 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“we just got worn out from beating our heads against a stone wall.”
Define “we”….
I hope hitting the stone wall will wake you up…. :P
11 October 2007
at 11:06 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines
“Then you take blurbs from some book or other piece of “history” and hold onto it dogmatically. For example, you clung to the idea that Columbus' name was forgotten for centuries until Irving's book,”
I consider that posting “history”…… wow
You said: “You're sentence structure, syntax, and misuse of common words and phrases makes it look almost like English is not your native language, or at the least it's one you struggle with…..”
Wow, “You're” sentence structure…… and “it's one you struggle with”…. talking about English….
11 October 2007
at 11:08 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“You're” sentence structure:: and “it's one you struggle with”:. talking about English:
It's Your sentence structure, and it's the one you are struggling with…. English, hey, Columbus didn't know how to speak English! Wow!
11 October 2007
at 11:13 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“But the way in which you conduct your “arguments” questions whether your opinion is rooted in fact or misunderstanding of what you read, or even whether you have a firm opinion or just like being contrary.”
Speaking of Rome…….
11 October 2007
at 11:25 a.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
livingstone:
That's a very nice story about Bhutan. Totally irrelevant, but very nice.
Would the current tribal populations be better off if whites had never come here? I don't have a crystal ball, so any answer is just pure speculation. I'd say 'probably' is a reasonable assumption.
But unless you can travel back in time and prevent it, the real question is going to be how we can improve the lot of our tribal peoples starting from their current situation.
Myself, I think that what Columbus did or did not do (and I'd love some examples of average people actually celebrating Columbus Day as anything other than a possible day off…) is actually less relevant than abuses that have happened in the last 30 or 40 years, and yet awareness of concerns over Columbus is much higher than awareness of events from, say, the 70s, or current policies that offer funding for college educations but don't fund high schools well enough to prepare kids for college. Issues of funding have a much greater likelihood of having an impact on the lives of real people than a battle to change the name of a holiday - a battle you've no chance of winning in under ten years, but ironically a battle you might not even have to fight then if you spent those ten years devoting that same energy to the community itself.
11 October 2007
at 11:39 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
First, if you follow my post, I didn't call Columbus a criminal or a racist. What he did wasn't to exploit Native Indians, but to explore a route so that the Europeans could avoid direct confrontation with the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was aiming at Europe at that time, and could potentially invade Europe. That could cause a huge confrontation between two civilizations. But remember, Europeans were not as organized and technologically advanced as the Ottoman Empire at that time. The English, Portugese, Italian and Spanish were all grasping for air against a possible occupying force. Columbus was on a trip to find another way to avoid the Ottoman Empire, more efficiently, than to simply sail around Africa. In fact, what he did was to benefit Spain, and not even the entire Europe.
He didn't find what he was supposed to. And he had no intention of killing the Natives. He went back again and again and that set off a colonization and immigration wave from Europe a few decades later, instead of trying to find the way to Asia, they found another way where people who were stucked in the bad times in Europe could find new grasp of lives in a newfoundland for Europeans. There came with the Europeans, were diseases and exploitations, where Missionaries thought the locals were worshipping bad idols and had the wrong knowledge. They thought that these people were savages, who didn't know how to organize themselves. And were “poor”.
Again and again, we didn't think that having the right history is important. But it is. It is how human society learns and avoid mistakes committed by their ancestors.
Surprisingly, while we're trying to “fight” poverty among the Native Indians, we actually brought more bad things to them. For example, the Casino rights…., that gave them such easy money and the root of all evils? Money. The Native Indians need a role model, and are we going to give them a national hero, that we can all look admirably at together? There are more than enough white men on the calendar. Give one to the Natives. A lot of poverty comes from the mind. Isn't MLK a good role model for the blacks?
11 October 2007
at 11:43 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
I understand your argument. We shouldn't be so concerned about Columbus Day. But then, putting the wrong meaning to a day can be devastating. Indeed, Columbus Day should have started in the first place as it was an “excuse” to give people a break…. It's like putting a Pope Day on our calendar… pope didn't do anything wrong? But why it invites so many criticism from other christian denominations? If we are going to have a Pope Day, I bet we'll get the same problem.
Of course, I don't support a Pope Day. But if it's Religious Awareness Day, that might be better off.
11 October 2007
at 11:47 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
“And the Ottomans weren't Arab.”
I apologize, but I think I did correct that in one of my previous posts.
11 October 2007
at 11:51 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
“If you had meant to say “Muslim” instead of “Arab,” you should have said that. You have absolutely no credibility when it's apparent you don't understand, or at the very least grossly misuse, the historical “facts” you throw around.”
Same to your postings too…. but I didn't use such strong languages to accuse you. One Muslim and Arab mixup…. and then you said “absolutely no credibility”, “grossly misuse”…. I thought that is very very rude. Beware of what you're using.
11 October 2007
at 11:54 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Badger,
I apologize, I was too quick, the above post is for DotsLines….
11 October 2007
at 12:02 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
Let me correct your “perfect” English:
Yours: “I mentioned that the Arabs hardly swept over Europe during the crusades, and you come back with: “Spain became part of Arab's land:: once.”
Mine: It should be: I had mentioned that the Arabs hardly swept across Europe during the crusades.
Yours: : “And the Ottomans weren't Arab. ”
Mine: And that the Ottoman Turks weren't Arabs.
Yours: “You have absolutely no credibility when it's apparent you don't understand, or at the very least grossly misuse, the historical “facts” you throw around.”
You have absolutely no credibility. Apparently, you don't understand history, or at the very least, grossly misinterpret historical facts that you threw around.
Mine, mine, what happened to your English? You're supposed to write and speak well, apparently, it's the only language you speak and write with!
11 October 2007
at 12:24 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
logicsound04 (Anonymous) says:
“Egads, this thread might yet reach 600!?!”
I just gotta do more editing on DotsLines postings, we could be looking at 700 soon. So what have you done lately to break that record?
11 October 2007
at 12:54 p.m.
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badger (Anonymous) says…
livingstone, who are you proposing as that role model? I'm sure there are many candidates, and working to get one formally honored would be a better symbolic gesture than this wrangling over Columbus, if indeed you insist on a symbolic gesture. Elevate, don't tear down. Much more effective. I'd support a drive to get someone who's done good things honored, absolutely.
I might add, though, that MLK is not just a role model for 'the blacks'. He's one of mine, and I'm white (German-American to be precise). I would think that anyone who'd made substantive improvements in the human condition, such as he did, is worthy of admiration regardless of race.
Your Pope Day comment makes no sense. As you've become kind of incoherent and are having difficulty tracking the people involved in the debate, I'll consider that I've had my say and let you get on with your bad self.
11 October 2007
at 1:03 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“And incidentally, the Moors who conquered Iberia were led by Tariq ibn-Ziyad, who was a Berber, not Arab (and yes, I know the Berbers were under Arab rule at the time - but not all the Moors were Arab. Although they were a lot closer than the Turks.)”
Did you just check that up on the internet just now? Nice ….. hey, there are a lot more histories than those pieces of information ya' know. Isn't it nice to know that you learn something today?
11 October 2007
at 1:07 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
badger,
“Your Pope Day comment makes no sense. As you've become kind of incoherent and are having difficulty tracking the people involved in the debate, I'll consider that I've had my say and let you get on with your bad self.”
Did so many people protest against the other Days? Do we need to change the meanings of the other days so frequently?
11 October 2007
at 1:23 p.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
make it stop.
11 October 2007
at 1:33 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
logicsound04,
Not yet, 23 to go… oppsss 22 now….
11 October 2007
at 1:34 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
22
11 October 2007
at 1:34 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
21
11 October 2007
at 1:35 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Can someone take over?
11 October 2007
at 2:03 p.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
Where's Marion when we need him?
11 October 2007
at 2:05 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
I think out of my 400+ posts, over 150 could be attributed to this one…. I think I should be celebrating Columbus Day myself!
11 October 2007
at 2:22 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Andini says: “Where's Marion when we need him?”
He's pulling all the strings!
He is, after all, the puppetmaster… and, we, his little Marionettes!
11 October 2007
at 2:27 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I once tried to sever myself from the puppetmaster, cutting all the apron strings.
It just left me in a heap on the floor.
But, eventually, I learned to crawl-and Marion would throw me scraps, perhaps more for his own amusement than for my sustenance.
Oh… and there were the good times, when he would step too close, and I'd be able to sink my teeth into an ankle….
11 October 2007
at 3:05 p.m.
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Gootsie (Anonymous) says…
and I helped!
11 October 2007
at 3:23 p.m.
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kcwarpony (Anonymous) says…
Talk about beating a dead horse…
But at least it's not me! :)
11 October 2007
at 3:27 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Marion?
11 October 2007
at 3:29 p.m.
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kcwarpony (Anonymous) says…
As long as it's not me!
11 October 2007
at 3:34 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
You know, the sad thing is that, if we even *unwittingly* push this thing to 600, it will only breathe new life into it (thus sucking even more life from each of us).
11 October 2007
at 3:36 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
And why? What's the motivation? the inspiration?
11 October 2007
at 3:36 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
12 more…..
11 October 2007
at 3:37 p.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
If there's a Columbus day then why can't we have a Coronado day too?
11 October 2007
at 3:37 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Is it Columbus? The man, the myth, the Marionette?
11 October 2007
at 3:38 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“And why? What's the motivation? the inspiration?”
In the name of Christopher Columbus! I think we might be holding back an LJ World's decision to write something on thanksgiving…..
11 October 2007
at 3:38 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Is it the three hot chicks in the photo?
11 October 2007
at 3:40 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Is it the dread fear that the coyotes finally took down Marion?
11 October 2007
at 3:41 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“Is it the “three” hot chicks in the photo?”
Are you talking about trinity? That's very offensive you know….
11 October 2007
at 3:42 p.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
I think there's a song written about Shereena…just sayin'
11 October 2007
at 3:42 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… or that … gasp! … he fell prey to marauding chickadees?
11 October 2007
at 3:58 p.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
600….I'm out.
11 October 2007
at 4 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
You fool! You fool!
You've loosed all manner of evil upon mankind with your careless post.
Now we are only three score… away from the apocalypse!
11 October 2007
at 4:09 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
History repeats itself:
Why single out a single race? There's black history month, now people want indigenous peoples day? I, too, have native blood in my veins, but also caucasian. What about the caucasian side of me? What about the african american side of my children? When will the race war ever end? Sadly, i see no end in sight.
………….
11 October 2007
at 4:10 p.m.
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tuschkahouma (Anonymous) says…
these chuckleheads have succeeded in completely speaking of nothing relating to this
subject. Nice display of intelligence?
11 October 2007
at 4:19 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tuschkahouma,
“Nice display of intelligence?”
We're half a Bush….. satisfied?
11 October 2007
at 4:34 p.m.
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kcwarpony (Anonymous) says…
Congrats! You've hit over 600!!
Please stop.
Buzzards are circling and the flies are getting thick…
11 October 2007
at 6:14 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“The ninety-two people represented in this film all have names that begin with the letters FALL. The names are taken from the latest edition of the Standard Directory published every three years by the Committee investigating the Violent Unknown Event - the VUE for short.
The names are presented in the alphabetical order in which they stand in the Directory and represent a reasonable cross-section of the nineteen million other names that are contained there.
The FALLS is presented in ninety-two different languages of which this is the most recent English version….”
11 October 2007
at 7:21 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
kcwarpony
“Please stop.”
The party has just started……
12 October 2007
at 9:21 a.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
I'm in.
12 October 2007
at 10:14 a.m.
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bluecollar2 (Anonymous) says…
My Irish, English, Swedish & German blood says give the Natives to this land their day. There should be a “Native Pride” day! My forefathers crossed the Ohio Valley, like so many others, but settled in with Natives, all in peace. I don't think Columbus Day would be the best day of recognition, though. How about the day that Gen. George A. Custer fell? I know he was just doing his job, but too many times it seems once the boys of the Calvary started their slaughter, they just couldn't quit. Of course, with my heritage, I also think that the Irish should have a day of rememberance, as well. How many suffered in captivity, as slaves, to go into the mines on the East Coast? Brutally beaten and starved to near death. We sure don't hear about that often enough.
12 October 2007
at 11:06 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
bluecollar2,
How about St. Patrick's Day?
12 October 2007
at 11:10 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
You know I was suffering from withdrawal syndrome yesterday night!
12 October 2007
at 11:55 a.m.
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consumer1 (Anonymous) says…
why are you still beating this to death???? get a life!!!
12 October 2007
at 7:21 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I got nuthin'
12 October 2007
at 8:01 p.m.
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bluecollar2 (Anonymous) says…
Livingstone,
Sorry, I thought St. Patrick's Day was a day of recognition for the Alcoholic's to line up for a parade, burning precious fuel to drag floats and throwing more trash on our city streets. Didn't realize that our country used this day to remember the Irish slaves. Hum?…
So back to the Native Americans; let us remember the Trail of Tears. And should we forget the countless children, seperated from what was left of their family and forced into a white-mans school, diciplined for trying to speak in their Native tongue?
My peace has been spoken, the best to all.
12 October 2007
at 10:23 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
bluecollar2,
can't remember which side of the bed you found yourself when you woke up in the morning…?
12 October 2007
at 11:02 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
You know, the only value in pursing this thread, at his point, would be the production of a “marathon reading festival” candidate.
( or, if Marion et al were to return-unrestrained-a “Banned Blogs Week” reading entry. )
13 October 2007
at 6:50 a.m.
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janeb (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
Well, at least we have a holiday based in proven historical facts that we can all** get behind: St. Patrick's Day.
**Unless you're a snake, of course.
In truth is was not Snakes that were run out of Ireland it was Witches.
13 October 2007
at 10:38 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Waki further says: “… Legend also credits Patrick with teaching the Irish about the concept of the Trinity by showing people the shamrock, a 3-leaved clover, using it to highlight the Christian belief of 'three divine persons in the one God'….”
Hmm… so whut's up with that “lucky” four-leaf clover?
13 October 2007
at 11:16 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
It's quite fun to know:
1. Christianity originates in the Middle East.
2. There are some accusation that the Native Indians were practicing “human sacrifice” when the Europeans arrived, but weren't the Europeans trying to eliminate “witches” in their continent?
3. There are plenty of theories proving that human walked out of Africa…
Didn't we realize that we're all one? As a Hapa myself (50% Asian, 40% White, 10% black), there are too much dedicated to the White side of me, but very little on the Asian part of me. For example, my white great grand-dad arrived at about the same time as my Asian great grand-dad, but my Asian great grand-dad was, at that time, considered an illegal. By the second generation, my white grand-dad was considered an American, but my grand-dad wasn't. Even today, most Americans don't know that there are 7th generation Asians in this continent. I'm not against white, nor against asian, I'm just so disappointed by all the ignorance going around that has affected racial integration. I thought people should be more sensitive about naming Columbus a hero simply because he was a European.
13 October 2007
at 11:28 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“As a Hapa myself (50% Asian, 40% White, 10% black), there are too much dedicated to the White side of me….”
“I am but Half A Man,
Half A Man
I'd like to be a dancer
But I'm much too large
Half A Man, Half A Man
I'm an object for your pity
Not your rage”
- Randy Newman
… oops … wrong forum
13 October 2007
at 11:40 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous
“: oops : wrong forum”
Double standard!!!
See below
“bluecollar2 (Anonymous) says:
My Irish, English, Swedish & German blood says give the Natives to this land their day. There should be a “Native Pride” day! My forefathers crossed the Ohio Valley, like so many others, but settled in with Natives, all in peace. I don't think Columbus Day would be the best day of recognition, though. How about the day that Gen. George A. Custer fell? I know he was just doing his job, but too many times it seems once the boys of the Calvary started their slaughter, they just couldn't quit. Of course, with my heritage, I also think that the Irish should have a day of rememberance, as well. How many suffered in captivity, as slaves, to go into the mines on the East Coast? Brutally beaten and starved to near death. We sure don't hear about that often enough.”
13 October 2007
at 11:41 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous,
Read my lips: I thought people should be more sensitive about naming Columbus a hero simply because he was a European.
13 October 2007
at 11:48 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“I thought people should be more sensitive about naming Columbus a hero simply because he was a European.”
Hey… aren't we all.
13 October 2007
at 11:52 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous
Then what's this?
“: oops : wrong forum”
13 October 2007
at 11:57 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… three-word elliptical post, wrapped in quotes(?)
13 October 2007
at noon
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous
Thomas Szasz
“Two wrongs don't make a right, but they make a good excuse.”
13 October 2007
at 12:02 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I've heard that three lefts make a right…
( one block, removed )
13 October 2007
at 12:04 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Aldous Huxley
“Several excuses are always less convincing than one.”
13 October 2007
at 12:05 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Edward R. Murrow
“Difficulty is the excuse history never accepts.”
13 October 2007
at 12:09 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Statistician.
13 October 2007
at 12:10 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“When a man points a finger at someone else, he should remember that three of his fingers are pointing at himself.”
13 October 2007
at 12:13 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I thought this is more suited for you:
- Accuse. To affirm another's guilt or unworth; most commonly as a justification of ourselves for having wronged him. (Ambrose Bierce)
13 October 2007
at 1:07 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I'll try to put tangential_reasoners_anonymous quote in the right place:
“I am but Half A Man,
Half A Man
I'd like to be a dancer
But I'm much too large
Half A Man, Half A Man
I'm an object for your pity
Not your rage”
- Randy Newman
: oops : wrong forum”
13 October 2007
at 1:16 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
Sometimes I do admire your ignorance, and feel flattered by your accusation:
“It is honorable to be accused by those who deserve to be accused.” (A Latin Proverbs)
You said: “The Nobel prize is a European award”: Oh, really?
Let's check on the winners of the Nobel Peace Prize: http://www.nobelprizes.com/nobel/peac…
Maybe it's a way for the Europeans trying to hint us as Americans: “Hey, you're just a bunch of idiots who still dispute the theory of evolution and climate change, maybe we should give you this Nobel Prize and band you together with the “developing” countries.” Cheers.
13 October 2007
at 1:33 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
Just for your education purpose, Nobel Peace Prize has a deeper meaning that other prizes. It hopes to solve global problems by giving that prize to the one with the highest priority. That is why Al Gore doesn't get it alone.
For example, 1983' Lech Walesa, not for him but for “human rights”. He wasn't a good President, ya' know.
Anyway, this posting is in the wrong place.
13 October 2007
at 2:17 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
A joke I got from the internet, I laughed and laughed when finally I can associate someone with this joke!!! Here it goes:
A blonde lived on a farm. He didn't get many visitors, so I went to see him:when I got there, he was standing stiff as a board, out in the middle of the cow paddock. I yelled out to him, and asked what he was doing standing out there all still and straight. He replied that he was trying to win a Nobel Peace prize.
I said, “Well, that's great, but what are you doing in the paddock?”
He replied, “I was reading the newspaper, and it said all you had to do to win the Nobel Peace prize was to be outstanding in your field.”
13 October 2007
at 2:31 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
You said: “An accurate representation of Al Gore. Now I can see why a little sycophant like you admires him and thinks he's deserving of honor.”
“We have two incredibly credible witnesses here.” - Sen. Biden at Thomas hearings from Bob Ericson (Marlboro, MA, USA) …. wahahahahaha, Oh my God, I hope all these made everyone's day!
13 October 2007
at 2:39 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
I thought you might want to cool down a little from your anger. Maybe this joke will:
“A Dell technician received a call from a customer who was enraged because his computer had told him he was “bad and an invalid”. The tech explained that the computer's “bad command” and “invalid” responses shouldn't be taken personally.”
Cheers!
13 October 2007
at 4:49 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
livingstone says: “Cheers!”
“… where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to go where people know,
People are all the same;
You want to go where everybody knows your name. ”
- anonymous
13 October 2007
at 5:56 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous,
When Lakers Ruled!
14 October 2007
at 10:32 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
To think that this forum might last through October is just scary.
… let alone that this turkey might persist well into November.
By December it would be downright massive.
Better to niX this MASS before the New Year.
( … although I'm sure its memory would be tugging at my heart by February. )
[ someone, stop me, please, before I post again ]
14 October 2007
at 2:24 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous),
It has been over 7 years since the twisted vote in Florida and people are still talking about it. Our president was still talking about Columbus Day in 1971, even when Columbus landed in some remote island far away from where we're staying now, and in 1489. So, pushing this one to 700 doesn't hurt anyway.
14 October 2007
at 6:31 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
It's the page reloads that are killin' me.
14 October 2007
at 8:01 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“It's the page reloads that are killin' me.”
Man, I didn't know page carries a gun! Man, we should have banned gun in the first place…. are you ok Tangent?
14 October 2007
at 8:26 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
So, we learn too late that online forums are, indeed, *self*-limiting.
Shame we didn't have the foresight to limit posts to one-liners.
14 October 2007
at 8:35 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
… on the other hand, maybe it's the “Number of the Beast” which constrains us.
I'm out at 665-that is, unless Mount Blue is cast into Clinton Lake, before we approach it.
15 October 2007
at 10:06 a.m.
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thebigspoon (Anonymous) says…
Is it possible that this post is sponsored by….
Well. I guess we'll see what happens when the “number” appears on the web site.
Good lusk to all, and all you who haven't prepared yourselves for the 'end of days”, well, hope you'll let us know what's there after all.
15 October 2007
at 2:43 p.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
It's less than a year to Columbus Day 2008!!!
15 October 2007
at 9:31 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Christopher Omnibus.
( Seems like an awfully small contribution to warrant a holiday… not even a desirable way to travel while on holiday. )
16 October 2007
at 4:30 p.m.
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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…
700 posts by Friday? Go for it!
16 October 2007
at 6:10 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Christopher Columbine… another ugly, ugly episode in history.
16 October 2007
at 7:01 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
This is the discussion that goes on and on. This is the discussion that never ends. It just goes on and on and on.
16 October 2007
at 11:22 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Wave upon wave (upon wave)…. Wait, in the distance, Land Ho!
17 October 2007
at 5:33 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
One small schlep for man; one giant heap for mankind.
17 October 2007
at 5:35 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Did everyone give up?? I thought we were gonna try to make it to 700!! I think we've lost the point of this discussion, huh?
17 October 2007
at 6:17 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Looks like it's just you and me, Gretch.
I think I have a fitting end for this forum,
going back to the days when Vangelis had a rock band…
17 October 2007
at 6:18 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
The day the walls of the citys
will crumble away
uncovering our naked souls,
we'll all start singing,
shouting, screaming
loud, loud, loud, loud.
The day the circus horses
will stop turning around,
running fast through the green valleys,
we'll sing and cry and shout
loud, loud, loud, loud.
The day the cars will lay in heaps
their wheels turning in vain,
we'll run along the empty highways
shouting, screaming, singing
loud, loud, loud, loud.
The day young boys will stop
becoming soldiers, and soldiers
will stop playing war games,
we'll sing and cry and shout
loud, loud, loud, loud.
The day will come up
that we'll all wake up
hearing the shouts of joy
and shouting together with the freaks
loud, loud, loud, loud.
The day the world will turn upside down
we'll run together round and round
screaming, shouting, singing
loud, loud, loud, loud
17 October 2007
at 6:19 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
And when the lamb
opened the first seal,
I saw the first Horse.
The Horseman held a bow.
Now when the lamb
opened the second seal,
I saw the second Horse.
The Horseman held a sword.
…
And when the lamb
opened the third seal,
I saw the third Horse.
The Horseman had a balance.
Now when the lamb
opened the fourth seal,
I saw the fourth Horse.
The Horseman was the Pest
The leading Horse is white,
the second Horse is red,
the third one is a black,
the last one is a green….
17 October 2007
at 6:28 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
la la la la la.. typing about nothing in particular.. trying to make this mindlessly long… yeah I have nooooo life.. I'm at work and pretending I'm busy.. whoo hoo, look at me.. wheeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!
17 October 2007
at 6:30 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Oh damn!! I think I missed the 666 post by one, TRA got it!! Grrrrr, not fair. I was so hoping to be the beast, Dotslines.
17 October 2007
at 6:38 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
What does he win???? Devil horns? Oh wait, he already has those. ;o)
17 October 2007
at 6:51 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Dots!
Your unexpected post displaced the apocalyptic post by one place, so you unwittingly have forestalled the inevitable!
17 October 2007
at 7:34 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I have done my part.
I will leave
… further colonization to others.
17 October 2007
at 8:05 p.m.
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Martin_D_15 (Anonymous) says…
I too am a Native American, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather emmigrated from Scotland to Boston, Mass back in 1649!
17 October 2007
at 9:03 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Look!
Apocalypse forestalled, and they all come flooding back!
17 October 2007
at 9:48 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
I KNEW you couldn't stay away, TRA. *anxiously awaiting Dotslines next post* We clearly have NO life.
17 October 2007
at 11:34 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
You are caller #679, congratulations!! And you win… absolutely nothing!! Do you think LJW has ever forcefully stopped a discussion forum because it was just getting entirely too long?
18 October 2007
at 6:39 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“I KNEW you couldn't stay away, TRA.”
“I try to get out, but they keep pulling me back in!”
18 October 2007
at 11:26 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
this many…
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
123456789012345678901234
19 October 2007
at 7:48 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I can get only about half way up… it appears to be about “the holocaust.”
19 October 2007
at 5:09 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Having compared the count with the actual number of posts, I find that LJW apparently has awarded seven (7) bonus posts, as this is the 682nd post, but the count indicates 689.
SO, if the count reaches 700, it appears that it will include a 1% error.
19 October 2007
at 9:14 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
At this posting, this reader forum has spanned two weeks,
from October 5 - 19.
19 October 2007
at 9:15 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
At this posting, this reader forum had 97 different participants.
19 October 2007
at 9:16 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
The 12 most prolific posters were:
livingstone (191)
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (147)
DotsLines (80)
4th_grade_education (34)
Captain_Obvious (25)
Marion (19)
logicsound04 (17)
posessionannex (16)
badger (10)
Das_Ubermime (8)
GretchenJP (8)
Andini (7)
19 October 2007
at 9:17 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
At this posting, more than 5600 unique “words” have been posted.
19 October 2007
at 9:19 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
At this posting, the 40 most frequently used words were:
2674 the
1344 to
1226 of
1221 and*
1018 a
901 that
766 you
757 in
717 &*
625 I
581 was
510 it
507 is
463 for
390 day
382 not
381 Columbus
322 this
313 have
304 he
299 they
294 are
292 as
288 be
288 on
275 we
261 but
253 by
251 your
234 or
232 if
232 what
229 with
227 so
224 were
220 all
217 America
216 didn't
213 just
209 people
19 October 2007
at 9:20 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
This is post number 707 (700 actual).
19 October 2007
at 10:42 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
livingstone.
20 October 2007
at 8:45 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
We ought to recruit livingstone to compose a single sentence having ALL of the 40 most frequently used words.
20 October 2007
at 8:42 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“By the way, has anyone else noticed that while previewing your comment, you can actually 'Suggest removal' even before you post it? Why would you do that?
I understand that Marion makes frequent use of this very feature.
20 October 2007
at 10:29 p.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous,
Please change my tally to 8.
Dotsline,
How long did it take you to do the 700 design?
Andini
21 October 2007
at 12:21 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“… Word …”
Still trying to get the last word in, I see….
21 October 2007
at 5:10 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
make it stop
21 October 2007
at 6:03 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
oh crap… what have I done
21 October 2007
at 9:09 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Gretch is back?
( I've been away all day-perhaps I do have a fragment of a life, after all. )
I guess that if I have but one post to make, it may as well be here.
Hmm… but what would I say…?
I'm going to have to get back with you on that….
21 October 2007
at 9:32 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
*twitching* LJW blog! I must check the LJW blog! I must see what Dots and Tang has posted next! *convulsing*
21 October 2007
at 9:48 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
We're here only to provide your fix, Gretch. Look another line….
21 October 2007
at 9:58 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Well, shake it up, Gretchen, now, (shake it up, Gretchen)
Twitch, convulse. (twitch, convulse)
C'mon c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, Gretchen, now, (come on Gretchen)
Come on and blog it on out. (blog it on out)…
21 October 2007
at 10:10 p.m.
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not_dolph (Anonymous) says…
people…people…
21 October 2007
at 10:10 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
*fainting* *regaining consciouisness* meds! meds! i need meds! *fainting*
21 October 2007
at 10:12 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
You know, Dots, it just occurred to me: Gretchen has been the impetus, here, all along.
Marion isn't the puppetmaster, it's Gretch!
( Have you noticed that “Gretchen” and “Columbus” have the same number of letters? And that when you perform a particular arcane, iterative, alphanumeric translation of “Gretchen,” you get “Columbus?!” I don't know about you, but I won't be sleeping tonight. )
21 October 2007
at 10:13 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
I know where you live.
21 October 2007
at 10:16 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Ooh Ooh and I've been on a boat AND I live in America… and and… and I bet Columbus and I BOTH have 10 fingers and 10 toes. Spoooooooookeeeeeeeeeeeee.
21 October 2007
at 10:31 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines (Anonymous) says:
“Unfortunately, Columbus Day and livingstone have the same number of letters, too:”
And DotsLines has the same number of letters as Columbus… with the space after the “s”… ORRR, DotsLine or DotLines has the same number of letters as Columbus!!!! That's it, I'm checking myself into an asylum.
21 October 2007
at 10:33 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Gawd, I hope they have internet access there.
21 October 2007
at 10:48 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Dots,
I'm impressed with you, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.
I hope this will…. cheers!
21 October 2007
at 10:55 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Dots, Dots, Dots, you little instigator you.
21 October 2007
at 11:27 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
*popping popcorn and awaiting the next installment*
21 October 2007
at 11:41 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Perhaps I should duck for cover.
21 October 2007
at 11:59 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
LOL I am very amused at work tonight. Maybe he was doing the whole “doorbell ringing and runaway giggling” thing.
22 October 2007
at 12:15 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Thank GAWD it's no longer October 21!
… a night which will live in infamy….
22 October 2007
at 12:21 a.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Oh dear lord please someone provide me with a link.
22 October 2007
at 8:09 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Wow, I have so much impact on Dots' life thus far. Cheers!
22 October 2007
at 8:59 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
not_dolph says: “people:people:”
It appears that dolph-is it appropriate to call not_dolph “dolph?”-is JUST trying to edge out “JUST” on the top-40 words list…
217 America
216 didn't
213 just
209 people
22 October 2007
at 9:27 a.m.
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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…
I had pizza for dinner last night.
22 October 2007
at 10:13 a.m.
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Andini (Anonymous) says…
Dear Journal World,
Please put an end to this forum.
I'm addicted and need to work more instead of wasting my time here.
Thanks,
Andini
22 October 2007
at 1:21 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Dots,
“kidneystone”
The right medical name is Renal calculi. It also seems like kidney stone has a long history and people didn't even know that it was a “crystal” in the kidney. Medicine has come a long way. Or do you think it's more appropriate to keep our old way of kidney stone treatment rather than doing more to update our medical book?
22 October 2007
at 5:30 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!! 750 posts! This is either really cool or really retarded.
22 October 2007
at 5:34 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines and Livingstone, stop flirting!!
22 October 2007
at 6:22 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I expected this thing to end at 600.
I even promoted the apocalypse at 666 (forestalled by Dots).
I posted closing summary statistics at 700.
Looks like we're going to have to insert spoon into the matrix….
22 October 2007
at 6:31 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
I say we keep going until Christmas.
22 October 2007
at 7:13 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Dots,
“And still not a single intelligent statement by livingstone.”
Teach me how to talk to an idiot using intelligent words?
22 October 2007
at 7:24 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Dots,
And worse, you keep falling into my “unintelligent” statements.
Though I'd love to make it a millennium post, my job schedule doesn't allow that. Will be in Europe for the next two weeks, nowhere near Norway but I'm going to check out how our dear friends on the other side feel about Al Gore and Columbus.
Maybe they can tell me some more unintelligent stuffs, like global cooling, Nobel War Prize, and the Environmental Destruction Agency. I bet I will meet some cowheads, probably less intelligent than myself and share the experience of milking the Nobel Prize Committee to give us some kindda Nobel Prize for doing nothing. Who knows? I don't care, I just want my frequent flyer miles!
Cheers!
22 October 2007
at 7:27 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Looks like we're going to have to insert spoon into the matrix:.”
There is no spoon.
( Sheesh, you hand feed it to 'em, and they're too busy arguin' to notice. )
22 October 2007
at 7:30 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Dots,
“Actually, livingstone, I really don't care as I never had a kidney stone (until you). You are, however, just as I imagined such a severe pain in the urethra would be every time you show up:”
When you feel some pain, you gotta see the doctor. Global warming could burn your a….s… you know.
22 October 2007
at 7:32 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
I'm gonna knock their heads together. Both of you go to your rooms!
22 October 2007
at 7:32 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“DotsLines and Livingstone, stop flirting!!”
I don't necessary find Dotted Lines suit my taste very well. I drive on them everyday to get to work.
22 October 2007
at 7:34 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“I'm gonna knock their heads together. Both of you go to your rooms!”
This doesn't involve both of us only. It's an ORGY!!!
22 October 2007
at 7:34 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
NOW you're talkin' my language! Bow chicka bow bow.
22 October 2007
at 7:40 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Ow! Get offa my urethra!
22 October 2007
at 7:40 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
These 2 are completely entertaining me. *grabbing a bowl of popcorn*
22 October 2007
at 7:50 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“NOW you're talkin' my language! Bow chicka bow bow.”
Italiano or Espanol?
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/flash/
22 October 2007
at 7:51 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
French
22 October 2007
at 7:52 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Dots,
Hey, your post has “Los Angeles”! Woohoooo!! Close to my home! Oppss, what's gene deficiency?
22 October 2007
at 7:56 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“French”
Desole…. Colomb n'etait pas un français. De plus, Les Americains detestent français.
22 October 2007
at 7:59 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
True, Columbus wasn't French… or WAS he?? *rubbing chin and raising eyebrow* And not ALL Americans hate French. We just hate the way they smell. Was that politcally correct?
You two need your own talk show.
22 October 2007
at 8:04 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Wouldn't it be funny if you found out you both work for the same company?
22 October 2007
at 8:13 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“True, Columbus wasn't French: or WAS he?? *rubbing chin and raising eyebrow* And not ALL Americans hate French. We just hate the way they smell. Was that politcally correct?”
Hey, French makes the best parfum!
22 October 2007
at 8:15 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“Wouldn't it be funny if you found out you both work for the same company?”
My company normally doesn't employ anyone who has an IQ lower than 55.
22 October 2007
at 8:20 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
“My company normally doesn't employ anyone who has an IQ lower than 55.”
I knew that would start a whole new set of insults. I guess I AM the instigator queen.
**********************************************************
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
“Hey, French makes the best parfum!”
No not really but they DO have the best bakeries.
22 October 2007
at 8:26 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Wouldn't it be funny if you found out you both work for the same company?”
Gretch, they're conjoined twins, separated at birth, reunited in cyberspace.
See it on an upcoming Montel.
22 October 2007
at 8:27 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP ,
“I knew that would start a whole new set of insults. I guess I AM the instigator queen.”
At least I'm doing my part to get this post closer to the millennium mark.
“No not really but they DO have the best bakeries.”
I like Italians….
22 October 2007
at 8:29 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Awww! I'm getting schmaltzy! Except I think Ricki Lake is covering that topic.
22 October 2007
at 8:31 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
“I like Italians:.”
Mamma Mia.
22 October 2007
at 8:32 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Dots?? Dots?? Where are you? I miss you!!
22 October 2007
at 8:40 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“Dots?? Dots?? Where are you? I miss you!!”
You have to give him a break. Sometimes, people do get tired of posting the same thing over and over again.
22 October 2007
at 8:47 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Gretch, I think everyone needs a hug….
22 October 2007
at 8:54 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Just look at those three women at the top of the page. No teeth. No claws. Just peaceful reverie.
Dots, livingstone, each of you pick one, and emulate!
22 October 2007
at 8:55 p.m.
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clyde_never_barks (Anonymous) says…
I haven't read the gajillion posts above here, but did anyone ever notice that the picture that accompanies the story looks like the Pinta, Nina, and the Santa Maria? Just curious.
22 October 2007
at 9:02 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
That's Nina in the middle?
22 October 2007
at 9:23 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says:
“Gretch, I think everyone needs a hug:.”
“Dots, livingstone, each of you pick one, and emulate!”
This one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNg8oU…
Or this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVynnb…
Cheers!
22 October 2007
at 9:26 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Let it gooooo, Dots, let it gooooooo….
Remember what fred sed:
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.
And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
22 October 2007
at 9:38 p.m.
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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…
I had tacos for dinner tonight.
22 October 2007
at 9:41 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“If you gaze long enough into the nachos,
the nachos will gaze back into you.”
22 October 2007
at 9:45 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Dots… Stone… kiss and make up.
*************************************************
The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says:
“I had tacos for dinner tonight.”
Look out! Bob's gonna drop some shrimp in the wok tonight.
22 October 2007
at 9:50 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Shrimp tacos?
22 October 2007
at 9:51 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP (Anonymous) says:
“Dots: Stone: kiss and make up.”
You sure? We won't make it to a thousand.
22 October 2007
at 9:57 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
“You sure? We won't make it to a thousand.”
You're right, keep going. Besides, I love reading these. Neither one of you are a force I'm going to reckon with.
22 October 2007
at 10:01 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I blog all night. I work all day….
22 October 2007
at 10:03 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
Gretch… you want the honor…?
22 October 2007
at 10:06 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay!
He blogs all night and he works all day!
You can count on me to be your mounty.
22 October 2007
at 10:09 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP,
“You're right, keep going. Besides, I love reading these. Neither one of you are a force I'm going to reckon with.”
I've ignored this Dotted Lines long time ago. But he got me so addicted on poking him all these while. I just couldn't stop when people take some comments so personally. I quit and start making jokes after jokes. Even the most humiliating jokes won't stop him! But I just keep on joking and joking….
22 October 2007
at 10:15 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP,
And you should have realized that I quited long time ago, but Dots just kept on mentioning my names again and again and again… it makes me feel like a drug for him! I didn't know when I became a heroin. It was like, if I didn't show myself, he'd have gone crazy soon.
22 October 2007
at 10:16 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
livingstone (Anonymous) says:
“But I just keep on joking and joking:”
He's like the energizer bunny!
22 October 2007
at 10:18 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
I love the F5 button!!
22 October 2007
at 10:54 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Mother Teresa wasn't a man?
22 October 2007
at 11:26 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
We have SO broken the 800 mark.
22 October 2007
at 11:27 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP,
“He's like the energizer bunny!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgrSCV…
Sounds very much like this… keep using the same words again and again and again…. people will start thinking that he's correct even when he's wrong most of the time.
22 October 2007
at 11:28 p.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
DotsLines,
“Mother Teresa was a man”
She's a Lesbian…!
22 October 2007
at 11:31 p.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
You're so vain. You probably thing this blog is about you, you're so vain. You probably think this blog is about you, don't you, don't you.
22 October 2007
at 11:58 p.m.
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kansasdaughter (Anonymous) says…
livingstoned, dotslines, gretchen, and tangential: get a room and do not post the details.
23 October 2007
at 12:02 a.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
But I like to kiss and tell.
23 October 2007
at 12:04 a.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Kiss and post.
23 October 2007
at 12:11 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
kansasdaughter (Anonymous) says:
“livingstoned, dotslines, gretchen, and tangential: get a room and do not post the details.”
Don't tell you that you're suggesting four….me…? Yeeks! That spook me out!
23 October 2007
at 12:16 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
Seems like self-chanting is a new kind of therapy nowadays.
23 October 2007
at 12:18 a.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
Oooooh, you just love to stir it, dontcha? *grabbing another bowl of popcorn*
23 October 2007
at 12:25 a.m.
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GretchenJP (Anonymous) says…
You gotta admit, he's a source of entertainment.
23 October 2007
at 12:39 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
GretchenJP,
You running out of popcorns?
23 October 2007
at 7:19 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“You're so vain. You probably thing this blog is about you, you're so vain. You probably think this blog is about you, don't you, don't you.”
Ah… Gretchen… you are wise beyond your years.
23 October 2007
at 7:25 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“livingstoned, dotslines, gretchen, and tangential: get a room….”
Perhaps you would be confusing us with: Bob & Carol & Ted & livingstone?
23 October 2007
at 7:28 a.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Name Change Sought For Thread. I suggest “the worlds slowest chatroom”
Would that be in reference to page reloads, or participants?