Archive for Thursday, October 26, 2006

Anti-Kline mailings linked to Tiller

Nonprofit group warns voters to be wary of ads

October 26, 2006

Advertisement

— Who is behind mailings and ads in the attorney general's race is about as clear as the mud being thrown by the candidates.

Republican Atty. Gen. Phill Kline and Democrat Paul Morrison, the Johnson County district attorney, are locked in a bitter campaign that has attracted special interest groups that aren't what they appear to be.

On Wednesday, it was revealed that Kansans for Consumer Privacy Protection - the group responsible for the recent "Snoop Dog Kline" mailings criticizing Kline - is linked to George Tiller, the Wichita doctor who specializes in late-term abortions.

And the group responsible for recent ads that accuse Morrison of being soft on crime operates from K Street in Washington, D.C., and is bankrolled by some of the largest corporate interests in the nation.

Brooks Jackson, director of the nonpartisan and nonprofit FactCheck.org, said voters need to be wary of what they see, hear and read during the campaigns.

"Stay very skeptical and be aware that some of this false stuff is going to seep into your brain. It's an insidious thing, and it's very powerful," Jackson said.

FactCheck.org monitors the accuracy of political ads and statements and is part of the Washington, D.C.-based Annenberg Public Policy Center.

Tiller money

Kline's campaign said Tiller was trying to hide his efforts opposing Kline through a group called Kansans for Consumer Privacy Protection.

"This is evidence that George Tiller is beginning his back-door assault on the attorney general," said Kline spokeswoman Sherriene Jones.

Kansans for Consumer Privacy Protection has the same office address as ProKanDo, a political action committee, or PAC, started and financed by Tiller. Shortly after taking office in 2003, Kline, an ardent abortion opponent, launched a secret inquisition into clinics run by Tiller and Planned Parenthood.

Kline sought the medical records of 90 women and girls, saying he was investigating allegations of child rape and illegal late-term abortions.

The clinics challenged subpoenas for the medical records, saying Kline was on a fishing expedition. Morrison has said the inquisition was part of Kline's political agenda and an "abuse of authority."

'Snoop Dog'

In recent days, Kansans for Consumer Privacy Protection has mailed campaign pieces critical of Kline, saying that while the attorney general was prying into medical records, crime was on the rise.

The group has not registered with the Kansas Governmental Ethics Commission. It doesn't have to because it is not specifically advocating voting for or against a candidate.

The address on the group's mailing is 6505 E. Central, No. 106, in Wichita. The group filed as a corporation with the Kansas Secretary of State's office Aug. 28 with the address of 555 N. Woodlawn St., Suite 215, Wichita. That is the same address on ProKanDo's registration as a PAC, according to state officials.

Morrison's campaign said it had no dealings with Kansans for Consumer Privacy Protection.

"I'm not familiar with the group," Morrison spokesman Mark Simpson said. "But a lot of people have problems with Phill Kline's serious invasion of privacy."

ProKanDo v. Kline

Tiller's PAC, ProKanDo, was founded in 2002 to help elect candidates who support abortion rights.

Julie Burkhart, chairwoman of ProKanDo, did not return a phone call seeking comment. On ProKanDo's Web site, Burkhart says: "Kansas is now on the frontlines in the national battle for women's rights. Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline is on a crusade to glorify his personal political agenda by trampling on the rights of women."

In 2002, Tiller contributed more than $150,000 to try to defeat Kline. The funds went through ProKanDo to another PAC called Kansans for Democratic Leadership, which bought radio ads touting Democratic attorney general candidate Chris Biggs.

Biggs, who was relatively unknown statewide, came within a few thousand votes of defeating Kline.

Kline backers

Meanwhile, a group called the Republican State Leadership Committee has been running an ad saying Morrison is soft on crime.

The committee is a so-called 527 group, an independent political committee that isn't restricted by federal campaign contribution limits. It is among the top fundraisers in national politics and receives most of its money from corporate interests.

Morrison has said the Republican State Leadership Committee has spent about $1 million in television advertising against him in Kansas. The group's spending won't be disclosed until a Monday filing deadline.

Jones, the spokeswoman for Kline, said the Kline campaign has had nothing to do with the group. But she said the group supports Kline because he opposes frivolous lawsuits.

The group's ad, however, focuses on a crime bill that was approved in 2003 in Kansas.

Comments

rhd99 8 years, 8 months ago

Americorps, & others who CAN'T STAND KLINE, if someone was to tell me Kline was better than Morrison, which he isn't, can they point to KBI numbers that suggest crime rates went down during Kline's REIGN or would the KBI suggest that the numbers for violent crimes skyrocketed during this SCUM'S term in office?

heysoos 8 years, 8 months ago

Still never heard back from Godot re: Are you a doctor?

I'll make the assumption that you aren't, and therefore aren't really even qualified to consider whether or not there may be an instance where a viable fetus would need to be aborted to save the life of the mother.

Oh, and I hate those automated calls, regardless of who is making them. Stupid loopholes for political campaigns in the Do Not Call rule...

moderation 8 years, 8 months ago

Morrison never said he would halt the investigation into Tiller??? REALLY??? Hummm, well, then explain this... http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/sep...

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

That is a dilation and extraction procedure and is only one of the many ways in which to perform a late-term abortion whether legal or illegal.

If you are truly curious about the different methods of performing an abortion and when they are considered necessary for the life of the mother, I would think that a visit to Dykes or a post on a forum for medical professionals would be more likely to satisfy your curiousity.

Dykes can be found at http://library.kumc.edu/, or you could get to them through PubMed as well. Good luck in your search, Godot.

SettingTheRecordStraight 8 years, 8 months ago

"Not all late-term abortions are illegal." -Baille

But some are? Sounds like that's what you're saying. Do you think Tiller has performed any of these illegal late-term abortions?

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

Look, Marion, I understand what these websites say, but I am not going to say the Tiller broke the law without the underlying facts having been litigated are admitted.

All late-term abortions are not legal. Viability is judged by the physician, but it has to be by two physicians financially independent of each other. If it occurs after a certain point there are reporting requirements as well.

But this campaign isn't about Tiller. It is about who is best suited to be AG. I think the person best suited is the one who know the law, who does not encourage churches to break the law, who does not violate court orders and get reprimanded by the Supreme Court, who does not use his office to gather the personal information of citizens in order to solicit finds for his campaign, and who will not put his personal agenda above the duties of his office. The only person who meets that criteria in this race is Paul Morrison.

Godot 8 years, 8 months ago

ReturnedKansan, thanks for that link! I am so glad I heard that interview. What a slippery talker. He knows something, but doesn't know something, his campaign sends a letter threatening to pull the broadcast licenses of 18 stations if they run a political ad that he doesn't like, then he says he doesn't know anything about that, then he says governor Seblius did it, then the interviewer says that the Governor did not threaten to pull their licenses, he is rude, contentious, comptemptuous, he lies, he obfuscates, and he has a very hot temper when confronted with the facts that disprove him.

No wonder he changed parties. He really is a Democrat, after all.

GOPConservative 8 years, 8 months ago

Godot,

When did this happen? That is terrible!

If the fetus was viable, and the doctor stabbed it in the head, his actions obviously had nothing to do with saving the mother's life.

If that actually happened, then it is clearly murder. I'm sure Paul Morrison will prosecute it just as vigorously as he has been prosecuting other murder cases for the past two decades.

However, I don't see where your mentioning such a hideous crime should be seen as a reason to vote for such a despicable person as Phill Kline.

Godot 8 years, 8 months ago

I cannot imagine an instance where an abortion of a viable fetus would be necesary to preserve the life of the mother when cesarian surgery and induced labor are available.

Richard Heckler 8 years, 8 months ago

Just goes to show that complimenting a person can get you into real big trouble after said person is fired for incompetency/unable to work with office companions.

I've been told many times by male and female alike how great I look for my age. Don't we all like to hear those words every now and then?

This political party that Kline is associated with has some history of digging for matters sexual when running on issues is no longer working.

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

"Kline, a Republican, also sharply criticized his Democratic rival for pledging to drop the inquisition into possible child rape and illegal late-term abortions if elected.

"But Democratic challenger Paul Morrison on Wednesday denied he had made a pledge to drop the investigation.

"Absolutely not accurate," he said.

"Morrison said that if he were elected, he would examine the case on its merits and then decide whether to proceed."

http://www.cjonline.com/stories/100506/leg_agrace.shtml

Now I don't know which account is true, Moderation, but I know that Kline lied about the efficacy of his fishing expedition, misled the public about the "settlement" with former Johnson County DA employee, and has been pointed out to have acted unethically. I believe Morrison over Kline, but it is a matter of belief only.

Jamesaust 8 years, 8 months ago

"These contributors should have to be listed somewhere for the public to know who is financing the particular mailing not the hiding behind some BS name for the organization."

I agree. I could care less that interested parties wish to speak. I do, however, want to know who is doing the speaking. That's information necessary to judge whether the speech is more likely a deliberate falsehood or a self-interested party just pointing out a few (truthful) facts.

moderation -- As you well know, if Kline had probable cause to demand any patient's medical records then the courts would grant him a search warrant. You are deliberately distorting the facts, however, that underlie Kline's deceitful and illegal actions - demanding private records en masse before identifying probable cause (a/k/a, a "fishing expedition"). My records are PRIVATE and General Kline will need specific, individualized EVIDENCE against ME if he wants to sneak a peek (the nasty pervert!). Until such time as we fully repeal the Bill of Rights (and we're well on our way), the bedroom-cam in my home is TURNED OFF.

GOPConservative 8 years, 8 months ago

I'm against late-term abortions, but I am also in favor of Constitutional rights. There are ways to investigate without violating the rights of the innocent.

Whether one is Pro-Life or Pro-Choice, I think we should all agree that the tactics used by Phill Kline, both while in office and now, with his despicable, dishonest and misleading television ads, are proof of a man who has absolutely no sense of honest or decency.

ReturnedKansan 8 years, 8 months ago

packrat how would you know "Tiller has not turned over his records."? It's suppose to be a sealed investigation. The only parts that are open record are those filed with the KS Supreme Court...have you been talking to Paul?????

BTW - Morrison was quoted in this paper by Scott Rothschild saying he would stop the investigation.... it took more than a month before Morrison said no I didn't say that....still haven't heard if he demanded Scott to retract the story...

have you heard Morrison's meltdown on AM580? Check it out...

http://www.raubinandmegan.com/blog/

...not sure I want a short-tempered man with a history of sexual harassment as my ag...

rhd99 8 years, 8 months ago

One more thing about Tiller & Kline, Kline primarily is the issue here, obviously, but DID KLINE receive funding for his campaign on his ILLEGAL church swings from Fred Phelps & CRONIES?! I heard that these two CREEPS are neighbors. KLINE IS GOING DOWN in November. HASTA LA VISTA, KLINE you HYPOCRITE!

moderation 8 years, 8 months ago

This explains why Morrison has said that he will walk away from the investigation into Tiller and Planned Parenthood, even after a judge has found probable cause that evidence of criminal late term and partial birth abortion and failure to report child rape exists in those records.

Morrison should be ashamed.

packrat 8 years, 8 months ago

Why isn't anyone talking about Phil Kline's efforts to pass Jessica's law?

I find the amount of misinformation in these posts to be staggering. Even when the judge found probable cause of child rape, Tiller still refused to turn over the records. I believe that medical personnel, along with teachers, are required to report suspected child abuse. I guess that Dr. Tiller considers himself above the law.

heysoos 8 years, 8 months ago

"Posted by Godot (anonymous) on October 26, 2006 at 11:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I cannot imagine an instance where an abortion of a viable fetus would be necesary to preserve the life of the mother when cesarian surgery and induced labor are available."

Godot- Are you a doctor? Just curious...

Godot 8 years, 8 months ago

GOP, if the mother is complicit in the murder, and the murder occurs in the course of a medical procedure, and the medical staff are the murderers, and there is no police report made, and the medical records are kept private, how will Morrison discover the crime and prosecute it?

dacs23 8 years, 8 months ago

Vote For Kline

this message brought to you by (VWP)

Voters With Peladophobia.

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

"But some are? Sounds like that's what you're saying."

Sure there are. That is what the statute says. If the exceptions are not met and the procedure is performed the it would seem to violate the law.

"Do you think Tiller has performed any of these illegal late-term abortions?"

I have no idea. I have no access to the facts and refuse to speculate.

packrat 8 years, 8 months ago

"As an example of a misplaced priority, Morrison noted Kline's inquisition into clinics operated by Dr. George Tiller in Wichita and Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri in Overland Park. "

Don't we all just love the reporter's bias creeping into the story.

The real nightmare for predators is Phill Kline http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/jan...

rhd99 8 years, 8 months ago

For all of you Kline Supporters, let's get one thing straight, Kline was after George Tiller's blood when he became our SO-CALLED attorney General. Kline was acting as though George Tiller was RUNNING for office AGANINST HIM (KLINE). How STUPID is THAT!? He fished Tiller's clinic WITHOUT proper evidence. Then the stupid stunt Kline pulled by INVADING Patients' PRIVACY by ILLEGALLY snooping in their records at abortion clinics, Morrison didn't need to help Tiller, Kline already helped Tiller himself by providing the bait (HIMSELF) during his FISHING expedition against abortion doctors, clinics, & others when the law did NOT give hime Permission to do so. Let's think here KLINE or Morrsion? HMM. Morrison! Morrison! Morrison! TAKE A HIKE KLINE!

GOPConservative 8 years, 8 months ago

Godot: "GOP, if the mother is complicit in the murder, and the murder occurs in the course of a medical procedure, and the medical staff are the murderers, and there is no police report made, and the medical records are kept private, how will Morrison discover the crime and prosecute it?"

In other words, this "crime" of which you so knowingly speak is simply a figment of your overactive imagination.

Godot 8 years, 8 months ago

Heysoos, my comment was "bait." I was hoping someone would come up with an instance where chemically inducing a violent labor, then partially delivering a viable fetus, and then stabbling scissors into its brain while it is still in the womb, is the only option available for saving a mother's life.

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

Morrison never said that.

And there really isn't any criticism of Kline for conducting the inquest Certainly there is no place in Kansas for illegal abortions or sexual abuse. However, it is the way that Kline conducted the inquest that makes him unfit for office. As has been said here many times, there was a way to conduct this inquest reasonably without delving into personally identifiable confidential medical records until after specific probable cause had been established. Kline chose to take the path that would garner the most press for him personally. And then when things got tough, he violated court orders and acted unethically just to make himself look better.

Morrison never said he would stop the current investigation. He has stated, and I hope it is true, that he would not conduct such investigation the same way.

You may not like Morrison, but there is no need to make up positions for him based on unsolicited campaign donations. I feel the same way about Kline and Phelps. My opposition to Kline rests on his record and what I perceive to be his character flaws. I would hope that those who oppose Morrison could articulate the same.

Frank Smith 8 years, 8 months ago

Kline doesn't "oppose frivolous lawsuits." He opposes lawsuits against corporations that underwrite his many campaigns. Almost 15 years ago, a D.A.'s office employee who was fired because she made the work environment difficult for many other employees filed a frivolous lawsuit against the office. The judge in the case threw the suit out on a motion for summary judgment. That means it was completely lacking merit, and the office didn't even have to present its case. The employee refiled the nuisance suit against Morrison, claiming that a single disputed remark he made constituted sexual harassment. The new case's judge denied a motion for summary judgment, saying there were grounds to proceed, even if they were just "he said, she said."

Kline told reporters on video (posted on the Wichita Eagle website) that he had been aware of these ancient charges for some time, but when asked if he "intended to use them," he said, "I'm not," though by bringing them up in the interview he obviously was intending to do so. Kline posted 18 pages from the suits on his website, only a couple of pages of which contain any actual testimony from depositions. Even those are hardly damning and would lead a resonable person to conclude they seem to exonerate Morrison. One can assume that Kline dug through Morrison's entire personal life and professional career looking for something, anything, with which to slime him, and this is all he could find.

The frivolous suit was soon dropped, not because it was "settled," as Kline regularly and mendaciously claims, but by the agreement of both parties with no settlement. The only thing this entire issue proves (and Kline's ad is playing on my t.v. set as I write) is that Kline is a compulsive liar and that he will do anything to win. That shouldn't surprise anyone who knows him.

Godot 8 years, 8 months ago

Baille, save me time. Tell me when the dilation and extraction is the only option to save a mother's life.

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

"Even when the judge found probable cause of child rape, Tiller still refused to turn over the records. I believe that medical personnel, along with teachers, are required to report suspected child abuse. I guess that Dr. Tiller considers himself above the law."

This is absolutely not true from what I have seen. These subpoenas were not issued on a finding of speficic probable cause whether it be for child rape or illegal abortions. While they still could be issued on probable cause of criminal activity, it would have been more reasonable to have the records redacted until such probable cause could be established.

Further any defendant or subject of a subpoena has a right to object to a subpoena and to appeal certain decisions made during the course of litigation. From my understanding the subjects of the subpoenas in Alpha did turn over their records following the Supreme Court decision.

There is also no information to suggest that anyone in Alpha failed to comply with the mandated reporter statutes.

While I do agree that the amount of misinformation on these boards is staggering, unsubstantiated assertions of fact add to this load.

Do you have anything to show that the parties in Alpha failed to turn over records pursuant to the Order of the Supreme Court, violated the law during the course of litigation, or failed to fulfill their duties as mandated reporter?

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

"The real nightmare for predators is Phill Kline..."

Cause he supported Jessica's Law? C'mon. What AG would not support Jessica's Law?

What has Kline done besides voice support for legislation written by another, passed by a different branch of government, and signed into law by a Democratic governor? That is all he has?

Anyway, that would be a great story for a candidate for the legislature or Governor. The AG doesn't make law or sponsor law. He enforces the law. The problem is that Kline doesn't seem to understand or can not conform himself to the laws in which he is supposed to enforce. He should spend less time preaching and more time working.

packrat 8 years, 8 months ago

I am not familiar with the workings of Alpha.

"Posted by Baille (anonymous) on October 26, 2006 at 11:50 a.m. (Suggest removal) This is absolutely not true from what I have seen. These subpoenas were not issued on a finding of speficic probable cause whether it be for child rape or illegal abortions. "

The subpoenas were issued to look for child rape. Tiller has not turned over his records.

dacs23 8 years, 8 months ago

Negative campaigning has taken a new low. I got one of those automated calls to my home last night around 9pm from Paul Morrison's camp going on about Kline's short falls. I'm not sure what all they said since I hung up and went back to my computer game as soon as I figured out what it was.

My vote goes to whomever annoys me the least and so far Kline is in the lead. As for Morrison, if you're out there, DON'T CALL MY HOUSE WITH YOUR CHILDISH TRASH TALKING. At the very least don't hide your number so that I can call back and speak my mind about you interrupting my poker game.

BigDog 8 years, 8 months ago

I have no problem with groups including George Tiller (a person I totally don't agree with) and corporations (who are mostly out for themselves) sending out mailers. Though, I believe that any group should have to identify the major contributors to the mailing. These contributors should have to be listed somewhere for the public to know who is financing the particular mailing not the hiding behind some BS name for the organization.

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

"The subpoenas were issued to look for child rape."

True only in part.

"Tiller has not turned over his records."

That goes against everything that is in the public record at this point. On what do you base this statement?

cutny 8 years, 8 months ago

What happened consumer1? Did you let your dreams die? That's sad, but then most of your comments reflect a person who has given up.

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

One would get the medical records in their redacted form. No identifiable information would be in the records, but things like DOB and stage of pregnancy would be. Once probable cause was established as to an individual (e.g. that the patient in Record #27 is 12 years-old) then those specific records would be released, but still sealed, in their unredacted form. In this way the privacy of all patients would be respected.

Further one can not discount that Kline violated and/or authorized the violation of the court's order sealing these records and other sensitive documents during the litigation. One does not enforce the law by violating the law.

Godot 8 years, 8 months ago

Well, at least HGA is providing clarification that, in the minds of the pro-embryonic stem cell research fanatics, that research and abortion are inextricably linked.

RAPettifog 8 years, 8 months ago

"The records at issue are from clinics operated in Wichita by Dr. George Tiller and in Overland Park by Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri. A Shawnee County judge subpoenaed the documents in September 2004, but the clinics resisted. The case went to the Kansas Supreme Court and back to district court, where it remains." John Hanna AP as reported in LJW 10/6/06.

"However, it is the way that Kline conducted the inquest that makes him unfit for office. As has been said here many times, there was a way to conduct this inquest reasonably without delving into personally identifiable confidential medical records until after specific probable cause had been established."

How else was Kline to investigate? For those not from Wichita it is well known nationally, that Dr. Tiller performs late term abortions. "We have an unparalleled record of safey in late abortion services and we have more experience in late abortion services over 24 weeks than anyone else currently practicing in the Western Hemisphere, Europe and Australia." Direct quote from Tiller's website see: http://www.drtiller.com/. Kline was enforcing the law and Tiller refused to cooperate with the subpoenas issued by the state Court Judge. Interesting how the law, and legitimate court orders do not apply to some.
The facts are not in dispute: despite law prohibiting the procedure, late term abortions continue in Kansas

dacs23 8 years, 8 months ago

Yes couranna1.. I wanted to tell off the machine... then again perhaps I was not being so literal as mush as using an illogical statement to emphasize the level of emotional irritation I felt at the time. Though I do thank you for pointing out flaws in logic of my statement as an example of the practice of negative campaigning as a form of distraction from real issues or the point of my post. Good job.....Couranna1 for AG.

Larry Bauerle Jr. 8 years, 8 months ago

Neither candidate should be particularly proud of the support of these groups. Though I believe it is time for Kline to go do something else, hopefully somewhere else, I would be just as opposed to standing side by side with George Tiller. If these organizations didn't feel some reluctance to be identified by whom they are supported, they wouldn't feel the need to hide their identities.

justthefacts 8 years, 8 months ago

I know not all agree with me on this, but I truly believe that the AG election will come down to how individuals vote on the topic of abortion.

Whether either candidate intends or wants that to be the litmus test, or not, that appears to be the real fulcrum point. Both camps would point to their other areas of expertise or interest (or attack the other guy for not having those expertises or interests), but what is coming through loud and clear on the streets (where the voters walk) is that the voters are focusing upon the differences of each man with regard to their personal and public views on abortion.

lawrencechick 8 years, 8 months ago

Thank you George, now please stop butchering 8 month old fetuses.

Baille 8 years, 8 months ago

"Interesting how the law, and legitimate court orders do not apply to some."

Not all late-term abortions are illegal.

65-6703. Abortion prohibited when fetus viable, exceptions; determination of age of fetus; determination of viability; reports; retention of medical records; viable, defined; criminal penalties.

(a) No person shall perform or induce an abortion when the fetus is viable unless such person is a physician and has a documented referral from another physician not legally or financially affiliated with the physician performing or inducing the abortion and both physicians determine that: (1) The abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman; or (2) a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.

staff04 8 years, 8 months ago

Where is lunacydetector? Someone needs to point out the liberal slant of the author without reading the article first...after all, he did it yesterday...

xenophonschild 8 years, 8 months ago

parkay:

I struggle to understand how anyone, in our day and age, can hold such sophomoric beliefs. The truly shocking addendum is that you are obviously a true believer in such utter nonsense.

Your view of the value of human life is in error. Human life - all life for that matter - is wonderful, but within limits. For example, we are human beings . . . but we are also animals. We are just now beginning to understand that we are accidents of evolution, and that it is incorrect to accord too much reverence or awe to our existence.

Perhaps the adage - "It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round" - is true. Perhaps you belong somewhere in the spectrum of belief systems.

Emily Hadley 8 years, 8 months ago

Women WILL still seek abortion for both medical and psychological reasons, and the more it is openly understood, for those who have no choice, the better the choice others may make, for or against it. Late abortion is deemed medically necessary in some cases, and those women deserve a safe medical environment. It seems to me that anti-abortion sentiment has contributed to the lack of choice that women have, bringing women to Dr. Tiller from all over the country. The more we all understand about late abortion deemed medically necessary, the less we will assault those who receive and provide it, and the safer the environment will be. Maybe someday women won't even have to go to Wichita for an abortion, they will have a better legal alternative elsewhere, perhaps with a doctor whose bedside manner will better equip them to decide against the procedure.

The control that some seek over others, by forbidding medical procedures that offend them, is control really of what they must deal with in the mainstream, in their structured world of commerce and order, and they do not seem to care to extend their worldview beyond the law, despite the facts that women all over the world, throughout human history, have chosen to terminate pregnancies.

The abortion issue reminds me of the tactics used in our "war on drugs"--the more medical and historical facts one has, the more able one is to make sound, healthy, preventative decisions. Unfortunately in both cases, some would prefer to conceal real experiences and medical studies and instead bombard the ignorant with extreme propaganda and false facts. They then expose their lack of integrity and offend their targets so much that their arguments are dismissed and perhaps work against them.

To go beyond chasing symptoms of a preventable social ill and keep it from prepetuating, there is only one solution: EDUCATION. We can't prevent things we don't anticipate or understand, and prevention is the only answer to unwanted pregnancy. Sex, peer pressure, health, reproductive functions, rape, date rape, abortion, contraceptives, economics, law, politics, sanitation, and drugs -- all require education to prevent or respond to!!

If we are supposed to make good decisions about this junk before we are adults, we all need to know a bit more before we are adults, regardless of whether they want to use thing, penis, or weenie in the wording.

Whether you value more the privacy of an individual or the right to life, it is human life that drives that, and everyone here is human, so let's try to be kind to one another in the comments. We're all neighbors, and your daughter just might end up dating their son...

Godot 8 years, 8 months ago

Emily, please state a reason why any woman in the US, a woman who could have access to state-of-the-art obstectric medicine if she sought it out, would have to abort, rather than simply "deliver," a late term baby, to save her life.

There are countless women who endure painful in-vitro fertilization procedures to conceive, and then walk on eggs to bring these babies to term and to life, while others conceive easily, and then murder their babies weeks or days before birth. How can you reconcile the two disparate conditions?

Please, please give me an example of when it is necessary to murder a third trimester unborn child to save a mother's life. I am not talking about murdering a child to improve the quality of the mother's life, I am talking about sacrificing the child to save the mother's life.

In light of the state of medicine today, Why would that ever be necessary?

Please, enlighten me.

dacs23 8 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Lifesupport 8 years, 8 months ago

holygrailale says "I conclude therefore that, since the thesis of the pro-life crowd is that each and every egg/sperm is a potential child, God is the ultimate abortionist."

Egg and sperm are cells. When they unite, they form a new living unique human being. How do we know this? The fertilized egg has 23 pairs of chromosomes and it begins to divide and organize itself into an embryo that then goes through several more life stages. It would not do that if it were dead and it would not be human if it did not have 23 pairs of chromosomes.

There is a big difference between a death occurring naturally and someone deliberately ending a life. So what if God is the ultimate abortionist. He is also the ultimate Creator. He has that right. Humans should not have the right to take another person's life except to save his/her own life.

If the baby has hydrocephalus, install a shunt. It is amazing what they can do with fetal surgeries now days to correct birth defects and give these children a normal life. If the baby is anacephalic, then let him die naturally. Why kill him? Doctors make mistakes sometimes, and some do not die right away. I've heard of cases where the child lived a month or more. These parents still love the time they get to spend with their child.

"Less than 1% of abortions are performed after 22 weeks." Let us assume the abortionist diagnosed the correct fetal age and did not fudge the record to make it appear legal which has been known to happen. Do you know what 1% of a million abortions per year are? That is 10,000 babies murdered. Have you seen what a 22 week old fetus looks like? Looks and functions like a human being but needs to mature more to survive in air. I do not think all 10,000 of those babies have a defect that is incompatible with life outside the womb. Mothers go through labor of a premature or stillborn fetus all the time. How is that worse than abortion? Given the proper counseling and support, they can cope with it.

Lifesupport 8 years, 8 months ago

plumberscrack says: "I find it ridiculous for men to be deciding what a women can/can't do with her body?! I personally don't like it and wouldn't do it. Don't like abortion, don't have one! Just like you say about the smoking ban issue, right? Oh, that's right...you're against smoking ban (Because of government intrusion) but FOR abortion ban (Another government intrusion). I guess you just decide which government intrusion fits YOUR agenda, huh? Sounds more like an (sic) hypocrite to me!"

Men/government decide what women can and can't do with their bodies all the time. The FDA decides what medicines are safe to go in our bodies. The USDA decides how the food that goes in our bodies should be handled. Government boards decide who should be allowed to practice medicine on our bodies. They decide that you have to be 18 to smoke cigarettes and 21 to drink alcohol legally. There are laws against female circumcision. I could provide more examples, but you get my point. You are for those intrusions. Right? Conversely, should we take all restraints off because they don't fit your agenda? The government decides these things through our elected representatives and their appointees. Thus, it is we the people who decide which government intrusion fits society's agenda through the ballot box or legislative hearings on the subject. Why should abortion be any different like it is some sacred right?

Abortion is a procedure that is not performed solely on the mother's body it involves the destruction of another person's body. Shouldn't that baby have the right not to have his arms and legs torn off, scissors stuck in the back of her head, or be burned with saline, etc.?

I am against abortion, and I won't have one. However, I also have the right to advocate for the victims of abortion just as I speak up for victims of child abuse, rape, domestic violence, etc. I have never committed any of these things either. According to your logic, I should just not do those things and not argue against abusing children, raping or assaulting people. I am sure men who commit war crimes would be happy with that scenario just as abortionists do not want people to speak the truth about what they do.

Lifesupport 8 years, 8 months ago

Gee holygrailale, why so hostile and defensive? I am not attacking you personally, but I am disputing your arguments.

God creates new life through parents. Have you read The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran? Please read the pages On Children to understand what I mean.

Yes, I can worship a God that does the very act that I find objectionable in humans. One of His commandments is Thou Shalt Not Kill. He reserves that authority for Himself.

I do not pretend to know God's purpose for every life or event or need to understand it. Obviously, He has infinite knowledge and a longer range view than I can possess. I have no problem with God being in charge. You make it sound as though the distorted, unviable, or people born through rape or incest have no place in society. That is false. Human society is not reserved for the perfect; the imperfect contribute to society all the time. What we see as a problem may not be to God. Moreover, God gave us a free will and some problems are our own creation. For example, a child born with fetal alcohol syndrome may not be what God intended.

Your assumption that I have not seen a baby with hydrocephalus is incorrect. I do not purport to be an expert on the condition, but my husband works with the disabled. I am acquainted with many people with various disabilities.

As far as the child with no lungs, I guess you mean you spent one day with him/her after birth because, actually, that child spent many days in utero where lungs were not as necessary. I hope that he/she experienced compassionate care while alive though.

Why is the child with no brain the fault of humans? Where did I say that?

I am not immune to personal or society's problems. Though I have seen and experienced plenty, I do not get bitter over them. Are you angry with God? With all the references to God in your post, I get the feeling you should speak to a member of the clergy.

Maybe God does not solve problems the way we would like, maybe He solves it later, but God solves problems. Miracles happen. He also works through the skill of medical personnel, social workers, etc. to help people.

Sometimes, the doctor causes the problem in the patient. Women who walk in the abortionist's door do not ask for a perforated uterus, an incompetent cervix, excessive blood loss, PTSD, and the multitude of other complications that have been documented as a result of "safe, legal" abortions.

You asked before why pro-lifers focus on the less than 1% of abortions that occur after 22 weeks. Clearly, we focus on all abortions. With your questions about birth defects and rape/incest cases, then why are you focusing on this very small percentage of abortions? Nearly all abortions are done to healthy babies on healthy mothers.

Lifesupport 8 years, 8 months ago

holygrailale, I would not categorize what I wrote as a diatribe, but I certainly detected a negative tone in your posts. There is also a touch of sarcasm. I only thought you were being hostile and defensive by the tone of your writing and never claimed you were amoral or loveless. I've debated other pro-choice advocates without thinking they were hostile or defensive. In fact, I think a lively civil discussion on an issue is very democratic.

I may be religious, but I am not from the religious right. Are you lumping me with the religious right because I am pro-life? In which case, that would be stereotyping. Is your rant motivated because of an opposition to the religious right?

There is a huge difference between God and the devil. The devil uses deception, lies, distortions, etc. to accomplish his purpose. He tempts people into thinking that what they are about to do is the right thing to do when it is not. The devil wants to trap and enslave people. God is not like that.

Perhaps, you should just accept the fact that I am not going to get pissed off at God over miscarriages. I've never experienced one, and if I did I would probably grieve for awhile. I do not feel like rebelling against God because of miscarriages or other misfortunes that happen in the world. I am not blindly following God either.

"What we see as a problem may not be to God." ---- LifeSupport That's heresy. Plain and simple. ---- holygrailale

How is that a heresy? First, I was pointing out that human perspective and God's perspective may be two different things. For example, I may think it is a problem that all my children are the same sex and that I never had a child of the opposite sex. To God, that may not be a problem because He wanted me to bear only sons or only daughters.

So rape and incest are trumped on your morality scale by an anencephalic unviable fetus??? ---- holygrailale I think you are talking apples and oranges.

I also remind you of what our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness . . . That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government . . . " It is my contention that with the Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton decisions government became destructive to the unalienable right of Life. Thus, it is our duty to exercise our free speech and peaceful assembly rights to alter such a government.

Lifesupport 8 years, 8 months ago

shadower, Science defined that life begins at conception prior to the development of oral contraceptions and the legalization of abortion in the 1960s. Some scientists and the Alan Guttmacher Institute then introduced the concept that life does not begin until implantation of the embryo into the uterine wall. This was so that they could argue that certain forms of birth control (the pill, IUDs, morning after pill) were not abortifacients. When in vitro fertilization began in the 1970s those scientists argued again that life does not begin at conception because they would create several embryos in a test tube but did not insert all of them into the mother. Then, if the leftover embryos were frozen and/or destroyed they could say it is not a human life. Thus, these scientists were trying to confuse the point of when life began to suit their own agenda. Conception was the accepted point up until then. They also figure that by repeating a lie often enough it will become accepted as the truth or keep the issue undefined.

There are only two states of being alive or dead. Conception is the result of the union of a living egg and a living sperm. This cell goes on to divide, grow, and organize itself. Dead cells do not do that. A dead fertilized egg won't come back to life at a later date. The same goes for an embryo that fails to implant or a pregnancy that is miscarried later. If we say that life begins at implantation, what was the embryo doing prior to that? It had to be alive for the week or so that it took for it to implant because dead embryos do not implant themselves.

Furthermore, we know that the fertilized egg is human when it has 23 pairs of chromosomes. Except for a clone or identical twins, those chromosomes contain a unique combination of DNA. Thus, making this the beginning of a new human being.

Lifesupport 8 years, 8 months ago

holygrailale, Who are smith and manhattanite? Why should I care what they say?

"Let's see, this is new. Appealing to the Constitution with regard to the "right to life" but proposing changing the Constitution when it doesn't suit you. Also, you aren't referencing the Bible as the moral authority on the "right to life" issue.

Why is that???" --- holygrailale

Where have I proposed changing the Constitution when it does not suit me? The Constitution is changed when an amendment is added to it. Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton were Supreme Court decisions in other words the Justices interpreted the Constitution in reference to the cases before them at the time. We can alter government by electing certain legislators, passing new laws, and confirming new justices. It does not require changing the Constitution.

Does it infuriate you that I am not referencing the Bible as the moral authority on right to life issues? I don't need to reference the Bible. It seems that all you would do is shoot it down. How many times have you mentioned God or religion in your posts compared to mine? Perhaps, you are more hung up on the religious issue/angle than me. Can you debate the abortion issue without bringing God into it?

"Now clarify this for me......

is killing a child seven days after birth any different from a first trimester, second trimester, third trimester, partial birth abortion, child murder, teenager homicide, adult slaying????" --- holygrailale

Killing is killing

Lifesupport 8 years, 8 months ago

shadower,

Thank you for pointing out to me the different scientific views. I will stick with my contention that someone is either alive or dead and that dead cells do not regenerate into someone who is now considered living. You are alive today, you were alive yesterday, and the day before that, and so on. You can continue going backwards that way until the point of conception. Would the non-genetic or metabolic point of view scientists say the individual is dead prior to they point they established as life beginning?

Commenting has been disabled for this item.