The signs and shouts said it loud: The Columbus Day holiday always isn't shining reflections of sailing oceans blue. Not for everyone.
Rather, for the 50 or more American Indians gathered around the South Park gazebo Monday, the holiday stirred memories of generations of natives lost in the New World.
"He's a man who came here with dreams of exploiting our land and our people," said Derrick White, a member of the Navajo-Pottawatomie tribe and Haskell Indian Nations University student.
The group, made up of Haskell students from several tribes and local activists, rode and marched down Massachusetts Street, waving native flags and carrying signs.
In the park, they stood at the top of the gazebo steps and insisted that all native suffering, from 1492 until today, stemmed from the moment Columbus set foot in the New World.
"This is where they've taken us," White said.
The day of protest was the first in Lawrence since 1992 - the 500-year anniversary of Columbus' discovery of America.
Since then, White said, Haskell students' Columbus Day protests have fizzled out.
Willow Jack, a Haskell Indian Nations University student, holds a sign to protest Columbus Day in South Park. About 50 people, mostly Haskell students, gathered to protest the holiday honoring Italian explorer Christopher Columbus on Monday afternoon.
"Nobody was really getting anything going," he said.
Then, a conversation in an American Indian Studies class at Haskell inspired White to send a campuswide e-mail. Just because Haskell gets the day off - it's a federal institution - White said he didn't want to sit by idly.
"I thought: I'm not taking the day off," he said.
The turnout, he said, shocked him. He expected no more than the four or five classmates he first discussed the idea with.
But with a boisterous, almost celebratory crowd, White and others stood and spoke about native perceptions of the Columbus holiday.
Jimmy Beason, an Osage tribe member and Haskell student, read from a poem. In the U.S. today, he said, anyone with a contrary viewpoint of the country and its history is considered an enemy.
"So be it," Beason said. "Because this is occupied territory."
Not everyone perceived the holiday as wholly negative.
Mike Ortmann, a social studies teacher at Lawrence High School, said that he emphasizes American Indians' plight to students.
Watch 6News video report
But he also shows them that Columbus' landing - which officially happened Oct. 12, 1492 - began the exchange of ideas and goods between the old and new worlds.
"It was the whole interchange between the New World and Europe that occurred," he said.
But at South Park on Monday, the students and others voiced their anger toward the memory of the Italian explorer - and the hope that this wouldn't be the last year of the Columbus Day protest.
"Maybe this can continue in the years to come," Beason said. "This whole park could be filled up."
Comments
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DaREEKKU (anonymous) says…
We have such a diverse community in Lawrence, I absolutely love it. Good for them!
Solomon (anonymous) says…
What a horrible thing for the Indians.
Just think, they could still be living without indoor plumbing, heating, air condtioning, or any manufactured goods. They could live this idyllic life. They would be free to conduct forays against other tribes, killing them and/or taking their women and children for slaves. They could trek across the country, living a nomadic existence, pulling their meager posessions on travois' pulled by dogs and women. With no written language, they would have no books, so there would be no need to attend school. No pesky science to get in the way of the medicine man's practice.
Yes, what a horrible thing for the Indians.
DonnieDarko (anonymous) says…
Wow, Solomon. We won't even go into the overtly racist overtones of your post (i.e., "they would still be savages if it wasn't for us smart white people").
Before you get too proud of yourself and what you feel we "provided" for them, I'll just leave you with 2 words: smallpox blankets.
Go crawl back in your hole, Solomon. And this time, wait until we can nail the lid down.
ChinaSyndrome (anonymous) says…
Solomon
The problem is with the idea that they were "discovered."
Here's a handy preschool story to illustrate the idea:
A spaceship from another planet landed in your backyard. Being the friendly open-minded person you obviously are, you greet them gratiously, showing them your home, your land, your ways of life, and generally befriend them. Then, the aliens turn around and kill most of your family and friends. They like your home so much that they kick you out of it to find a new one. If you stand up for yourself, they will kill you too. Fast forward a hundred years, two hundred years, three hundred years, every year you and the remaining fellow earthlings get the pleasure of celebrating the arrival of the Aliens and the discovery of you.
Does that help get the point across to you, Solomon?
If that doesn't, here's this answer for your question: (1) who's to say the Native American populations wouldn't have come up with those things on their own? If my history is correct, you didn't bring them air conditioning. It wasn't even invented for quite some time. (2) Who's to say it's what they wanted? You assume too much in your post and I am angry at wasting so much of my time on you in writing this response.
Shardwurm (anonymous) says…
I'm glad they have the right to protest.
Moreover I'm glad they were allowed to take time off from work in order to do so. (Or whatever it was they normally do.)
What they fail to recognize is that prior to (and even after) the arrival of Europeans in this country they were fighting each other. They would wipe out encampments of other tribes in order to gain control of hunting rights.
They were brutal to each other but I guess that's ok.
In other news - you lost. The good thing about that is you've got a guaranteed free lunch from government subsidies for the rest of your life.
My family was driven from their homes in the Ukraine by the communists. But that was over 80 years ago and I've got better things to do than waste my time protesting something that no one cares about and can't be changed anyway.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
Sounds good to me solomon.
Euroamericans introduced greed,poverty,racism,can't live without destroying his own surroundings,prostitution,nuclear waste,road rage,had to be introduced to the bath tub,obesity,and his latest contribution of emailing young pages.
It's hilarious that people today look at basic survival skills with fear and terror.Haul your water from the spring,build toilet facilities,build your home,look at your elders with respact and admiration instead of putting them away in a home because they're too much a pain to care for.
Look at Katrina last year.People today are lost without those things solomon described.they can't survive and it scares the crap out of them,the very thought of not having these things and conditioned to relying on something other than themselves to provide it for them.
I was raised without that stuff.But guess what?By working past sundown to make sure I and my sisters had the basics,and learned a respect for the other guy.A virtue that euroamericans failed to bring with them.
ChinaSyndrome (anonymous) says…
Shardwurm, sweetheart, they didn't take the time off of work. They are federal employees as Professors at Haskell University and get Columbus Day off every year. Students also get the day off because they can't exactly attend class on Federal Holidays.
It says this in the article to which you are responding. Did you read the article or just start writing your response?
I think you should work on your attentive reading skills before making commentary next time.
DaREEKKU (anonymous) says…
Solomon, they are Natives, not "Indians" first of all. There is always this assumption that the technology Europeans brought over automatically made them superior, simply not so. Geekin, I agree. Keep up the protests~
Parrysmom (anonymous) says…
Shardwurm, did you forget that we wiped out most of them to get their land? Did you forget that we came in and brutally attacked them, so we could get the good land? How is that different from them wiping out tribes to get good hunting land?
You forget that our ancestors lied to these people, stole from them, cheated them, and did brutally horrible things to them. Some probably worse than what they did to their fellow natives.
prioress (anonymous) says…
nice day to lay (sic) around in the park
==========
That's "lie around the park," BTW. We are amused with the racist tones of some posters. Americans were not noble or quiet, just surviving within their cultures. The romanticizing of any population is always dangerous. To allege the first Americans would not have developed a more sophisticated and technological culture over time is an extreme insult. Besides, if Chen Ho, the eunuch emperor had not lost his nerve and pulled back the fleet, the Chinese would have made it to the west coast first and probably taken over much territory long before the Europeans got lost trying to find a new spice route.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/...
sgtwolverine (anonymous) says…
geekin:
"Euroamericans introduced greed,poverty,racism,can't live without destroying his own surroundings,prostitution,nuclear waste,road rage,had to be introduced to the bath tub,obesity,and his latest contribution of emailing young pages."
Let's not idealize one race too much. American Indians are humans just like Europeans; things like greed, poverty and racism were not invented in Europe and imported to America. Maybe it would be best to acknowledge that neither the Europeans nor the American Indians had it right, and neither one has it right now.
tuschkahouma (anonymous) says…
firstly, shadwurm, it's called rent for the land you're living
on, not subsidies. The rent hasn't been paid very regularly anyway. If the United States were a tenant, as they are, they would've been evicted for sporadic payment a long time ago. However, when these malfeasances can be swept under the rug by the U.S.
Congress and the Department of Interior in a denying
manner, the public remains uninformed and makes these
ridiculous comments that I'm seeing. Also, Shadwurm,
Russia has Indigenous Peoples, as does Finland. I wonder how the Russians treated the Sami Peoples
and the Peoples of the Siberian coast? Indigenous
Peoples are exploited and pushed out over much of the
world. The difference being that the United Nations
intervenes in countries besides the US. The US stays
away from the UN because they know they'd be held to the same standards as the rest of the world for their
treatment of Indigenous Peoples. Indigenous Peoples
went to the League of Nations in 1921 to protest US
treatment. Lastly, if more than 700 nations on this land
were doomed to fail, how is it that there are almost 600
nations either state or federally recognized in this country? Lastly, it was the Wampanoag People in Massachusetts that saved the incapable of planting their
own food pilgrims. Sa Chahta Okla grew 200 acre fields of corn which the Spanish and other interlopers stole
because they were too dumb to feed themselves.
I love seeing uninformed people whine who are the recipients of theft.
Chi pisa li chinni
Nahollo ahalabi
craigers (anonymous) says…
I just wish my job recognized Columbus day so I could have the day off. Oh well, guess not this year.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
Marion,
Are you a freemason or Bill O'rielly? You sound like it. You still on the "technology makes us better people" crap? Face it dude, you are a racist. You say we were doomed to fail without looking at the oppression that happened, without looking at the fact that Columbus began the slave trade in this country. He was not a good man like YOU are trying to portray. We had warfare but it was mostly revenge for things that people did to each other, or over territory, it was never religious warfare where one took the stance of superiority over another for what they believed in. Quite unlike your crusading white ancestors. No one here has to "prove" anything to you in regards to there being racism in kansas. You have more than covered that base.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Marion,
You might considering shorting your posts or making them into two posts so that people are more likely to read them entirely.
As for the smallpox blankets...
The Europeans did understand how smallpox was transmitted. However, they were just as afraid of it as anyone is now of a potentially deadly infections disease. The likelihood of convincing a European to expose themselves to the disease is remote.
I can't remember the specific battle/siege in one of the Northern territories, but the commander does make specific mention of smallpox blankets as a means to end the siege.
There is not evidence either way to know whether or not they were actually distributed.
There is, however, strong evidence in later generations (after the 13 colonies became states) that biology warfare (i.e. disease) was used to weaken the Cherokee in North Carolina.
Not a myth, but commonly misunderstood and misused.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
I meant to say "shortening" not "shorting" sorry about that.
chzypoof1 (anonymous) says…
I agree with Marion (for once :)) It was survival of the fittest. It's exactly what the "natives" were doing to other tribes: the stronger survived. The Natives couldn't defend themselves, so the europeans won.
Also, I am a Native American. I was born in America. Does that give me rights to free school and money? My ancestors (cuba) didn't kill your people, so why do I pay taxes for your schools and land? I don't get it.
The past is tragic for many people, races, religions, etc. It's the way it is all over the world. Most people just pick themselves back up and move on.
tweetybird2 (anonymous) says…
Solomon,
Not all Native Americans live with the comforts we do. I have a friend who is native american who grew up in a shack with no indoor plumbing. There was not enough room in the shack for he and his brothers to sleep so they slept outside every night all year round. They bathed in the creek. Maybe you should take the time to talk to some native americans to see what conditions they do live in.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Marion,
It pains me to say that otherwise (beside what I wrote above) I agree with you post.
Now I know something is wrong with me. :)
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Marion,
As I said above, I recognize that there isn't any evidence that they actually distributed the blankets, just that the commander had the idea to distribute.
What it does suggest is the recognition of the impact of disease on the native people.
Other people latch on to this idea and assume that it was common practice. These are generally (though not always) the same people who have the misconception of the "Noble Savage."
I'm just suggesting that you don't have to respond to everything in the same post. You will have fewer people skimming, and then misinterpreting because they aren't reading your entire post, if your posts are shorter. :)
craigers (anonymous) says…
Oddly enough I agree with Marion too.
Chzypoof I agree with you too. We must move on. If we keep going in circles we will get nowhere, but if all the races of people would decide to move forward together, then this world would be better. As bad as some of our ancestors lives were and how bad they were treated, we can't change it and no number of apologies will fix it. We need to move on.
sunshine_noise (anonymous) says…
Ponce de Leon landed in this country in the straits of Florida way before Columbus did. He didn't make any claims so he went about his business. Columbus got wind of this and by favor of the Queen (to get in her good graces) took 3 ships - because he got the funding - sailed here and the rest is history. Ponce de Leon didn't get the recognition because I guess he didn't mingle with the natives. Europe was all about gathering up as much land as possible more land, more power. Didn't matter who they stepped on to get it. Columbus earned favor of the Queen by being a cute-throat.
I do not appreciate how they teach about Columbus in schools and I tell my child he doesn't have to believe it. I don't want him growing up thinking that the behavior of a man like Columbus is acceptable. The truth is the truth and it shouldn't be color-coated because the man had royal clout bestowed upon him. Doesn't excuse what he did to innocent natives.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
You said
"Columbus was not a "bad man"; regardless of whatever time he lived in, this does not excuse his actions towards people. And by the way chzypoof1, cubans are not native americans. Just because you were born here doesn't make your ancestors native to this country. The reason natives get free school is because of the land below your feet. And have you ever stayed at Haskell? If you did, you would know it's not the lap of luxury that is KU. People died for that land and paid for it with blood. I don't know why you pay taxes because that is the biggest scam in the country. The natives didn't "run out of time" because we are still here. I have to quit arguing with ignorant people.
passionatelibra (anonymous) says…
Replace Native American with African American or Jewish and I am willing to bet this conversation would be completely different...
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Taking things out of context is so much fun.
passionatelibra,
You want to spell out your argument? Not sure exactly what you are trying to say or which way you are going with that statement.
passionatelibra (anonymous) says…
I am saying that people need to think about how they view things. All my life I have seen people be understandably upset with how African Americans and the Jewish were/are treated. Yet when it comes to the Native American movement we were "saved" it was "just how things were" and "quit your whining".
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Ok, passionatelibra, I just wanted to make sure that is what you were saying. I didn't want to misinterpret like people do so often on these posts.
passionatelibra (anonymous) says…
Not a problem :o)
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
That's what I'm saying passionatelibra. How are Natives supposed to "get over it and move on" when they see the results of colonization everyday? How are we supposed to have pride in who we are when people celebrate a man who brought destruction to us? People want us to be "over it" so that they don't have to think about how they are accountable TODAY.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Columbus didn't even "discover" what is now the United States anyway.
Look at a map.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
What I mean is, those people who are confused by my statement, should look at a map. :)
roger_o_thornhill (anonymous) says…
Oh my God! Did I actually read the words "Social Darwinism" on this thread? Holy crap. I hope it was "tongue-in-cheek" because otherwise I've got a nice "vaccine shot" to administer. Unfortunately if silly ol' Chris Colombus didn't show up, some other knucklehead would have.
My very favorite part of this is how little almost everyone here understands about pre-European history of the Western hemisphere. I'm sure I will now be told how wrong and stupid I am, but so many of the posts here try to encapsulate thousands of years of the histories of thousands of different groups of people into one or two paragraphs. How many would dare try the same thing with their European History?
Smarmy_Schoolmarm (anonymous) says…
In reference to Solomon's post (I don't have enough energy to bother with Marion's today):
At the time when Euros were coming to North America they had no indoor plumbing, their heating systems weren't much different from what Natives were using, they had no air conditioning and little in the way of manufactured goods. Few Western Europeans could read or write. Formal education was for the wealthy. Science hadn't developed a vaccine for smallpox, diphtheria, measles, or scarlet fever.
Europeans were conducting forays into other tribes (think Africa), killing them and /or taking their women and children for slaves.
How is any of this so different than the way Native Americans were living in the 15th century?
Why is a nomadic life a bad thing? Because it goes against the European idea of land ownership? Look where that's gotten us through history.
You forget that the oceans of this planet were huge barriers to the explorers/nomads. Columbus was unable to cross the Atlantic until technology advanced enough to make that possible. North America was incredibly isolated until then.
Your argument isn't worth the time it took you to type it.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Roger,
History is always more complicated. Unfortunately, there isn't enough space to discuss the history of a very diverse people. Obviously, for simplicity, multiple tribes must be condensed into the every popular "Native People" catagory.
Marion,
I knew it would happen...
I have studied Social Darwinism, and I can tell you it is a perversion of the concept of natural selection.
Social Darwinism does not stand up to critical analysis. Meaning that it doesn't hold water when looked at from an unbiased objective position.
Social Darwinism has been used time and time again to justify why one culture is "superior" to another culture and therefore justified in eliminating that "inferior" culture.
You were doing so good today too.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
I must have missed where Social Darwinism first reared its stupid head, otherwise I would have said something earlier.
Anyone want to tell me where it is? I don't feel like rereading a bunch of posts.
Thanks :)
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Does anyone realize that there were several tribes that were not nomadic? They had established governments, agriculture, etc.
These were the so-called "Five Civilized Tribes" by the Europeans, though there were others too.
One of the reasons Europeans considered the "Natives" savages is because men hunted while women farmed. In Europe, hunting was considered a leisure activity, and women were not suppose to farm, they were suppose to work inside the home.
Because women farmed, Europeans never considered the native people to have agriculture. It's a wierd male prejudice, but fun historical fact nontheless.
When Europeans "civilized" native people, they made the men farm (who had no talent for it) and the women stay inside.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
Marion,
You can make substitutions in just about any definition for it to mean what you want it to mean. That doesn't make to concept anymore valid.
While the simplified definition of Social Darwinism might strike many people as logical, the actual concept (meaning in it's entirety) does not stand up to scrutiny.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
Marion I have a challenge for you. Why don't you bestow upon us your "theory" at Haskell Indian Nations University in an open forum of students, staff and faculty? You should have told this to the group of 50+ people at the Columbus day gathering. I bet they'd all love to be enlightened by your profound wisdom and education about the history of Native people of this country.
prioress (anonymous) says…
Social Darwinism is, in itself, a racist invention used to justify oppression.
http://stmarys.ca/~wmills/course203/8...
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
I didn't ask you about guns. I asked you to come to Haskell and tell all of us about what you know.
crazyks (anonymous) says…
Columbus didn't even land in the U.S., so he didn't really "discover" it, did he? Historians can't even agree on where he landed first, but it's commonly believed that one of the places he landed was in what is now Cuba, which is probably what chzypoof is referring to.
From what I've read, the natives on this continent were originally referred to as Indians because the Europeans thought they had discovered a route to India.
Celebrate the man? I've lived in this country all my life and have never celebrated Columbus day. Back when I was in school, we were taught about Columbus, and that's as far as it went. We didn't get a day off from school because of it.
As for how Europeans treated the natives, yes, it was atrocious. The way in which the natives treated each other was also sometimes atrocious. It was atrocious how Europeans treated each other from time to time. It is atrocious how peoples in Darfur today treat each other. Just as it was atrocious how the Romans treated pratically everyone they came into contact with. It seems that atrocious behavior is a human failing, not a racial one.
It is also a theory by historians that the Native Americans traveled to this country via a land bridge to what is now Alaska, and so they weren't truly native to the country, either.
But my main question is: what is the point of a protest? Do they want to abolish the holiday, the celebrations? Do they want to abolish the U.S.? Do they want all the white people to leave? Exactly what IS the point?
I for one am getting tired of being blamed for things that I had nothing to do with. I personally didn't move anyone from their ancestral lands, or rape, pillage and burn any villages or peoples. I had no control over any of my ancestors who may have done so. And I don't see why I should be blamed for it and asked to pay any kind of retribution. I had nothing to do with it, and I can't change what happened.
Exactly what can be done to change it now, anyway? It happened. It can't be undone. So it seems the best solution now is to move on and learn from the experience, and make sure that you, personally, no longer practice any kind of discrimination against others.
Living in bitterness doesn't do anyone any good.
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
Assimilation is a good thing. How many years do you intend to be bitter about things that happened to your ancestors so long ago?
sunshine_noise (anonymous) says…
Bravo - well put Crazyks
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
sunshine_noise (anonymous) says…
Martin L. King Jr. has nothing to do with this. And he did do something. He helped change the minds of white racists. He brought dignity and humanity to the black race and I honor him for that. Yes he commited adultry but that was for his wife & family to deal with not us. As far as the plagerism - can't answer for this becuase it is the first time I've heard about it.
Umistout (anonymous) says…
I think the point of their protest was for people today to recognize that racism is still happening towards Native American people today. We act like there is nothing we can do but we can change a national holiday if enough of us say "Hey maybe we shouldn't be supporting a false history." People protest because they believe strongly in how they feel. Maybe there are Native Americans in lawrence that are tired of being made to feel like it's okay to celebrate a man who only got them killed for gold. So the point is, you can do something about it today, regardless of who your parents and grandparents were.
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
to "blue harley" and "crazyku",
I am assuming you two are "white" because only "white" people have the luxury of saying "lets move on" or "that was a long time ago". But the aftershocks of what happened long ago can still be felt on our native communities. But you would not know that because you've never been involved with us on that level so how would you ever be in a position to offer advice on how we should "get over it all"?? You have the luxury of saying get over it because everything around us is "your" culture. You are not being dominated by another culutre that is diametrically opposed to yours. Capitalism, bills, that fact that we must rely on huge companies to satisfy our basic needs to survive shows how deep your tentacles are imbedded in our lives. How would you feel if we, Indigenous people, invaded an all white gated community and forced you to move out, change your religion, change the way you dress, beat you whenever you speak English, done away with members of your family, then years later told your grandkids, "get over what happened to you people and get with the program! You being assimilated is a good thing!!" See, that is what is the matter with you people. Blue Harley said "assimilation is a good thing." I'm tired of you occupiers, saying what is good for us in our OWN lands. And as for crazyks, talk about someone who has lived in a bubble for the majority of there life...And marion needs to stop acting like some professor on Indian affairs. I might as well start a "Caucasian Studies Class" to figure out why you people are the way you are. Go to your family's burial plots and dig them up and see how inferior they are to the Indigenous race. Maybe discuss why it was only the Europeans who spread across the globe like a pan-demic plague. I will start one at Haskell immediately....
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
Marion,
still no comment on the freemason status, eh?
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
dear marion,
Just because you are old and falling apart like Clint Eastwood, does not mean you are him, PUNK! And aren't you a little old to be obsessed with gun play. You repeatedly bring guns into the equation, like some Charleton Heston sycophant. And when did I actually physcially threaten you? I didn't make a threat, it was a promise. Of course somebody like you is probably packing 24/7 the way you ogle "guns" so I'd be shot and another white man would be set free. So don't get beat down like Ken Shamrock....
passionatelibra (anonymous) says…
Shaypshifter,
I agree with every word you typed. Thank you for putting it in words that everyone should understand!
P.S. I'm going to watch Shamrock get beat down for a 3rd time tonight!
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
hey samurai? doesn't marion have a striking resemblance to hunter s. thompson? if thats his real picture.....And don't act like "threads" are some elite debating ground in saying it is "reduced" to bodily harm...they way you are acting is it surprising that someone would finally be agitated enough to say something "like that"???? And besides, I'm about 40 years younger than you are, so I think its obvious who would be pummelled.....later a**wipe
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
I guess its lunch time...everyone is gone....
evaiam (anonymous) says…
Whoa this is amazing. I've always thought of Lawrence as a town that welcomes and embraces diversity. I was raised on a reservation and was relieved to get away from the disputes between the white people and the Natives. After living in Lawrence for six years, I returned to my reservation to teach Native students. The biggest challenge I face is showing them that their cultures and traditions are something to be proud of. Then when students from Haskell get together to revive Columbus day protests to show and educate the community these are the types of responses we get. Wow some of the people in Lawrence need to spend some more time opening their minds to diversity!!
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
must be a secret meeting going on.
mojorrisin1 (anonymous) says…
to the people ranting and raving on this online comment board, good job, you're parading around your quasi-intelligence on this online comment-board which shows that you do not have much to do today first of all. second of all native people have a rich tradition that holds many things sacred, unlike the europeans we held a sort of homeostasis with our natural environment which kept our resources rich and still naturally useable....think about that and where our civilization would have been under those circumstances. third, its not that we were technologically underdeveloped, its that through oral tradition our elders knew the value of keeping our traditions and not falling to the knees of technology as so many do today. now i'm not going to say that indigenous people today are not colonized, but when you're bombarded day to day with schedules, times, and the agenda of the colonizer in which you are forced to follow, you tend to lose the ways you followed years before. overall what i'm saying is that, there are many things you cannot learn about indigenous peoples in books, its a way of growing up, not something you just learn by sitting in a class.....the saying "you can't tell a victim how to feel" can be applied to this in the sense that unless you are indigenous you do not know how it feels to be so, the prejudice, anti-indianism and so forth, so do not "study" our past and then tell me or anyone else how to feel.
also, i organized this protest/rally because i feel that columbus is not a person to be glorified, the things he stood for as an explorer involved exploitation in the peoples and lands in "discovered" read kirkpatrick sale's "conquest of paradise" and you'll start to understand what columbus was finding compared to what he left. word.
evaiam (anonymous) says…
Very Well said mojorrisin1!
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
to evaiam,
sometimes people are too indifferent with issues that involve other people. What marion fails to realize and other that have similar comments, is we are still here as Indigenous people, after they attempted our sysetmatic destruction. People like marion, harley blue, crazyku and etc, do not want us to be defiant. They do not want us to make a fit or ruckus because that would force them to acknowledge the messed up history of this "country" they probably love sooo muucchh. They live in communities where they have little contact with the people they blow off. When things like columbus day approach, it is viewed as trivial and we get talked down to as if our feelings aren't important. They can easily disregard what we say because they are not the ones being insulted. They have no real connection to this land base. There culture was shedded to embrace American culture, which is basically, consumerism and individualism. You see, they FEAR us because we represent the dirty past this country sweeps under the rug. When a stepfather continually beats a child, his main fear is the child growing into a man, realizing he does not need him and will overcome him. These "marion" types think we actually NEED technology to live and survive, and there arrogance will be there downfall.
mabear (anonymous) says…
Native Americans pay taxes
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
I'm glad someone finally said it. And I loved the ken shamrock refference by the way. LOL
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
shaypshifter - so much hatred. It must suck to be you.
Rationalanimal (anonymous) says…
What's new, another malcontent minority group complaining about something that happened 400 years ago. Just take the day off and enjoy it. Lots of people throughout history have gotten royally screwed. But, by n large, the people that overcame were those that stopped dwelling on it and adapted to the change of circumstances.
bluerain (anonymous) says…
Oppression....Overt as well as subtle, is present among many in one way or another. Ask yourself...do you help those in need based on their humanness or do you extend a helping hand to somebody based on their affiliation, status, gender, or Nativeness as you define it?
Rationalanimal (anonymous) says…
re one_more_knob's comment to Marion:
Nicely put for an individual that has posted 3523 times since the production of "Brokeduck Mountain". Surely, there is no expert opinionation contained within any of those 3523 (soon to be 3524 posts since the itch to respond is irresistible).
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
acg (anonymous) says…
shaypshifter, save your breath sweetie. Marion is a racist, we've known that for a long time now. He talks about every race like he's superior. He talks about every topic like he's the first and foremost authority. He has an unnatural relationship with his dog. Ignore him. He's like an annoying bug. Just swat at him, he'll go away. :)
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
Wow shaypshifter, you sure know a lot about me, don't you? From your ranting and rash assumptions, you earn no respect from me. Why not take a recent lesson from the Amish. Forgiveness.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
No culture? That is a ugly comment....I feel you owe an apology...
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
OK,Im back.
Whatd I miss?
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
First of all "blue", I do not want nor either desire respect from you. And you want to talk about "forgiveness" and "lessons from the Amish"? Why not tell your government that in regards to 9/11? That was five years ago, so get over it and move on!! Remember "forgiveness"!!
And as for good ol' marion. Ha! Thanks! I needed the laugh! Especially the part about breaking somebody's eardrums! Marvelous! I take back everything I said about you! Your alright! Don't know about the biting of the genitals bit, sounds a little "brokeback". Why would you even allow yourself to be put in a position where an "opponent" could negotiate that type of position? Are you both fighting buck naked??!!!!!
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
Redneck, I don't owe you an apology or any other good ol' boys...so go crack open a bottle of "keystone light" and give that mud boggin' truck a good washing!!!!
Rationalanimal (anonymous) says…
one_more_knob:
Your assumption that I scrolled through all 3523 (now 3524) posts exposes a tinge of narcicism. The number of any user's posts are readily available. Although, I'm quite confident you are not as naive as you led others to believe. Tell me, what is more creepy, 3523 posts in the last year or so, or referencing the number of an anonymous user's posts (the number of which is obtainable merely by clicking on the user name)?
crazyks (anonymous) says…
Okay, shapyshifter, so you're angry about it. Fine. Be angry. What does that do for you? Anger will eat you alive if you let it, and it sounds like you're letting it.
Don't want to celebrate Columbus day? Fine. Don't celebrate it. I don't, either. Want to take it away as a national holiday? Sure, go ahead. Makes no difference to me. To me it's just another Monday that the banks close. I didn't get the day off from work, and many, many other people don't, so it wouldn't make any difference to them, either.
White? I'm part white. I also have some Native American in my roots. You probably didn't know that and didn't care. Probably doesn't make any difference to you now that you do know. I also am part Jewish, part English, part Irish, yada, yada. Most of my recent family is from Germany, and I know next to nothing about the culture. See, in the days when some of my ancestors got here, the point was to assimilate as soon as possible, to become American, and so that culture was lost to me. But I can learn about it. I can celebrate any part of it that I want to, in my own home.
I suggest you do the same. Celebrate whatever parts of your culture you want to. If you don't want to, don't. If you don't want to celebrate parts of American culture, then don't.
Lived in a bubble all my life? Not knowing anything about me, how DARE you assume anything? Isn't that the very thing you're ranting to others to stop doing about Native Americans?
I grew up dirt poor and I'm still poor, and there's no worse kind of discrimination in this country or any other than that shown to those who are less fortunate financially. Don't look down your nose at me, honey. Although I've had people do it to me all my life, thinking I was less than human because I had nothing, so you doing it won't be any different.
You talk about kindness and tolerance, and then show absolutely none to other posters on the board. You make threats to them. Wonderful way to show everyone what a peaceful culture Native Americans have.
Take Columbus day and do what you want to with it. It won't change my life at all. Will it change yours? Will getting rid of a useless government holiday change your world?
Yes, I said get over it. There's nothing you can do to change the past, anyway, and constantly dwelling on it won't do any good. Obsessing on anger and hate and bitterness will not change anything.
Does discrimination still exist in America? You bet. And it's not just your culture that's discriminated against. Do I wish it didn't exist? You bet. Do you? Or would you still be willing to discriminate against white people?
Columbus was a little twit who had no idea where he was going or what he was doing, and I see no reason to celebrate the man or the day he supposedly discovered anything. Are you happy now?
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
shaypshifter - although you try to separate yourself from the facts, if you are a citizen of the United States, this government is as much yours as it is mine. You have the same rights and responsiblities as I do. You are free to make choices too. Only you choose to live in the past. I choose to move on.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
Wow, how can you debate someone who quotes Vince Lombardi? Marion, you have the reputation of starting racist conflicts on this board and no one is scared by your insinuating toughness. I'm serious though, you should come to Haskell and have an open forum and tell us all, to our faces, about how technologically inferior we are to you and your white brethren. I'd like to see you stand there and take the heat in person for the things you are posting on here rather than sitting there at your desk wasting time. But you won't because you would get your a** handed to you. You really should read books about Native Americans not written by white people before waltzing in with your ad hoc academic background. Quoting PBS eh? Oh I forget, the television always tells the truth about everything. And I bet you are a freemason, only they would call themselves a "social club".
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
To lighten things up a bit...
Monument Fund
Dear Friends and Relatives:
I have the distinguished honor of being on the
committee to raise $5,000,000 for a monument to George
W. Bush. We originally wanted to put him on Mt.
Rushmore until we discovered there was not enough room
for two more faces.
We then decided to erect a statue of George in the
Washington , DC Hall Of Fame. We were in a quandary as
to where the statue should be placed. It was not
proper to place it beside the statue of George
Washington, who never told a lie, or beside Richard
Nixon, who never told the truth, since George could
never tell the difference.
We finally decided to place it beside Christopher
Columbus, the greatest Republican of them all. He left
not knowing where he was going, and when
he got there he did not know where he was. He returned
not knowing where he had been, decimated the well
being of the majority of the population
while he was there, and did it all on someone else's
money.
Thank you,
George W. Bush Monument Committee
P.S. We have raised $1.35 so far.
chzypoof1 (anonymous) says…
crazyks: The best, truthful, most comprehensive response on the board. Nothing shayp says will top it.
Bravo
KSExpat (anonymous) says…
I'm stunned. And grateful I left Kansas.
What a pseudo-intellectual crock of scatology is it to say that you shouldn't judge historical figures through the lens of modern mores? Why? Because evil is somehow washed away by the passage of time? Should we all look at Hitler and just dismiss his genocidal insanity because he was a product of the post-WWI German culture? Marion, you are mentally defective.
And who is the shmuck that keeps bringing up MLK? Are you actually saying that somehow adultery and mass murder/mayhem are morally equivalent? If you're not saying it, then please shut the infernal regions up!
There is no excusing what was done to the Native Nations. Murder, mayhem (read some of the accounts of Sand Creek and you'll vomit), rape, imprisonment without due process, repeated treaty violations, and forcible conversion to Christianity are just some of the beauties that the American government used to expropriate this land.
And you want the Native Americans to 'celebrate' Columbus Day? Why not have the Jews celebrate Himmler day? Or the blacks celebrate Justice Taney day? It's utterly inconceivable what goes through the closet racists' minds (Marion you're here).
Face up to facts. We received this wonderful $10 trillion economy from the bloody hands of our ancestors. And we still grouse about Natives paying their 'fair share' in taxes ... Isn't the whole continent more than a 'fair share?'
If you look at the 'promises' made to the Natives in exchange (coerced exchange!) for their land, you'll understand what the Natives receive isn't a handout. It's payment -- a payment that's always been late or never delivered.
The BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) and the Interior Department can't even account for the monies owed and as the Cordell case progresses it looks more likely that officials actually embezzled the monies until this year. Yeah ... what a free ride those Natives are getting.
But I'm not surprised at the ignorance and racism. It takes a 'special someone' to shoot unarmed women and children ... And obviously, I'm talking to some of the 'special someone's' descendants now.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
"Some 80% of the scions of what was at that time the British Ruling Class was wiped out in cavalry charges against machine guns!!"
Citation, please?
-----------------------------------------
"Jimmy Beason, an Osage tribe member and Haskell student, read from a poem. In the U.S. today, he said, anyone with a contrary viewpoint of the country and its history is considered an enemy.
"So be it," Beason said. "Because this is occupied territory.""
1. Just because 'he said, anyone with a contrary viewpoint...' doesn't make that true. Nice way to think if you have a martyr's complex, but truth it's not.
2. "Occupied territory" - no. Perhaps 'annexed territory', but possession was decided long ago.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
If Columbus stirs such great conflicting feelings, let's use Columbus Day to celebrate the other great event that occurred in 1492, just like the Spanish do.
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
I gotta admit, that is funny!! what is that saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Not that we are "enemies"...maybe marion....but we can all agree that W is a monkey in a suit, sitting at the controls in the cockpit, and we are all on the same ride.......
Kodiac (anonymous) says…
"Come, let us put our minds together to see what kind of lives we can create for our children?" - Sitting Bull
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
thank you, KSExpat and shaypshifter. Thank you, thank you, thank you... and marion, you said "By the way, one of the guys from whom I learned self defence was this Native American guy raised on the res in Oklahoma." Really? What was his name? Which rez are you talking about? Cuz you know, all us Indians know each other and I bet he'd like to know about his inherent inferiority.
calvin (anonymous) says…
Columbus did not discover what is now known as America. He was lost at sea and accidently ended up here.
kcwarpony (anonymous) says…
"During Columbus' tenure as "viceroy and governor" of the Caribbean Islands and the American mainland from 1493 until 1500, he instituted policies of slavery (encomienda) and the systematic murder and rape of the Taino population. Dominican priest, Bartolome de Las Casas was the first European historian in the Americas. He was an eyewitness and wrote in painful detail of the tortures he witnessed. In a survey conducted in 1496, he estimated that over 5 million people had been exterminated within the first three years of the Columbus rule. [Actual survey conducted in 1496 by Bartolome de Las Casas, cited in J.B. Thatcher, Christopher Columbus, Vol. 2 [Source: New York: Putnam Sons Publishers, 1903-1904), p. 348ff. cited in Churchill.] Later accounts that gloss over the horrors of the Columbus regime are the revisions of history."
"The Christians, with their horses and swords and pikes began to carry out massacres and strange cruelties against [the Indians]. They attacked the towns and spared neither the children nor the aged, nor pregnant women nor women in childbed, not only stabbing and dismembering them but cutting them to pieces as if dealing with sheep in the slaughterhouse. They laid bets as to who, with one stroke of the sword could split a man in two or could cut off his head:They took infants from their mothers' breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags***They made some low, wide gallows on which the hanged victim's feet almost touched the ground, stringing up their victims, in lots of thirteen, in memory of Our Redeemer and His twelve Apostles, then set burning wood at their feet and thus burned them alive."
- Bartolome' de Las Casas, The Devastation of the Indies: A Brief Account (originally published in 1547) reprinted by Johns Hopkins Press, 1992. pp. 42-45. Las Casas was a Dominican priest, the first European historian in the Americas."
http://www.transformcolumbusday.org/f...
Celebrating Columbus Day = condoning genocide.
prioress (anonymous) says…
"The Christians, with their horses and swords and pikes began to carry out massacres and strange cruelties against [the Indians]."
=========
What horrors we inflict on each other in the name of our loving gods..............
75x55 (anonymous) says…
prioress -
=========
What horrors we inflict on each other in the name of our loving gods...
Odder still that this Bartolome de Las Casas was a priest, who initially supported the actions taken by Spanish colonists against native populations, then repented these thoughts and spent the rest of his life standing up for the human rights of these natives.
Gee, a man of God standing up for what is right....imagine that.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
I find it somewhat humerous that no one, not one person has touched the controversy that paleontologists, anthropologists and archeaologist have discovered factual evidence along the atlantic coast that the so called "native" americans weren't the first group of peoples here and in fact the europeans were here and had a few settlements that have left artifacts that with carbon dating has been proved that they are older than any Indian artifact or bones found in the americas
Shardwurm (anonymous) says…
mojorrisin1 -
Unfortunately for you it's 2006 not 1406. I did not screw your people. Nor did any of my forefathers as they all immigrated here after 1900. I think it's safe to say that no one left alive today had anything to do with the fall of your society. Get over it.
Sorry things didn't stay the way they were. Sorry you weren't strong enough to protect your interests. On the plus side at least your situation shows us why we need a strong military.
Can you go to a globe and show me ANY country in the world today whose borders have remained unchanged since 1492? I'll wait here while you look.
I think you'll find that nothing today is the same as it was 600 years ago. Lots of people around the world have died or lost everything they had. You're not the only ones.
So instead of self-absorbed pity and an absurd chip on your shoulder why don't you and your people work on improving your lot in life and becoming a part of this country instead of lamenting the one you lost over 100 years ago?
METALQ2 (anonymous) says…
I thought our history books read Columbus was lost. If that is true how in the h&ll could he come here with the intentions of expoiting your land and your people? He never intended to land here. Get over it.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
Leprechaunking13: If you are referring to kenniwick man you are sadly misled. You should research the actual accuracy of carbon dating and let me know what you find. It's way off.
Shardwurm: We were strong enough to protect our interests, that's why custer got greased on the battle field. So, you have nothing to do with the occupation of the US today right? Then what the hell are you doing here standing on Indian Land? I'm not absorbed in self pity nor do I have a chip on my shoulder. I just don't like racist people telling me how I should feel about my family getting killed in vast numbers by their families. Maybe you should find out why your family left their mother country in the first place.
Metalq2: Columbus was wondering around the carribean in search of gold and riches. He killed the natives there, exploited them and then brought more settlers with him on his next journey. Read a book.
KSExpat (anonymous) says…
Shardwurm ... It's well-established legal tradition that those who receive stolen property are culpable regardless of whether or not they are the original thieves.
English common-law ... so can you can the crap of how you didn't do anything? Your own legal tradition shows you have responsibility. But I guess laws are unimportant too?
I'd like it if the cud-chewers could just for once actually engage their reasoning processes. Because if you live by the gun, you die by the gun ... You should thank your lucky stars that the Mexican immigrant tsunami doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking.
Bovine.
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
LEpre
Nice for going there,,,that's where I have been getting ready to go. What most have failed to understand is the whole land bridge theory has been disputed by many over the last ten to tfifteen years and the cuurent geography was not like this 10s of 1000s of years ago.
WHy hasn't anyone discussed it? 75% of Native Americans have asian prehistoric dna markers and 3% have prehistoric european dna markers. Also a lot of research and exploration of underwater settlements on both coasts are being done showing land confirgurations were much different and trade may have been conducted for much longer than the Native Americans claim to be in North and South America
Additionally, linguistically it takes approximately 40,000 to 60,0000 for one language to split into two if they were isolated. The Native Americans have over 140+ languages. It is clear they were not isolated due to the prehistoric asian and european dna evidence.
Here is an interesting little side note. In Washington State someone found a skeleton in a wooded area they initially thought was a murder. They later found it was a murder but the person was 10000+ years old. (Ballistics found he was shot with an arrow after xray). THe subject had asian physical characteristics as well as physiological characteristics. The Native Americans demanded the body and proper burial without further research. Why?
METALQ2 (anonymous) says…
What gives them the right to burn and American flag?Nothing was said about that in the Urinal World.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
keystone? Man, we made that crap for haskell students.
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
Sam
Kennewick is only part of the controversy. It is clear more trade and immigration went on and along other routes for much longer than many would want to admit because it refutes who actually discovered the Americas and who took over it first. It also supports the prehistoric dna evidence. If five tribes claimed rights to him, his southeast asian dna would support asians were here at the same time at least as the native americans...here is a question where are the asians that were here at that time....did the native americans wipe them out.
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
Info on "Kennewick man" and the controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewic...
evaiam (anonymous) says…
guess what? I seen a couple of white folks burning an american flag on fourth of july as well........maybe it was for the same reason. things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm
tuschkahouma (anonymous) says…
Wow, it's the marion post show! I don't speak for the
people who were at the protest yesterday, but I can
say this; 1/3 of this country was taken without treaty
before and during the revolutionary war. The 13 colonies
acquired lands from tribes illegally before an act of congress was required for tribal lands to be alienated
from tribal ownership. The supreme court case, McIntosh
V. Johnson gave my Choctaw and Cherokee forebearers
the highest right of occupancy, but not the ownership of
said land. This flawed premise came from the discovery
doctrine, which was based on the date of Christopher
Columbus' landing in Cuba. Many of the treaties that
separated tribes from their lands were never ratified
by the U.S. Congress. The U.S. Congress excersized
the right to abrogate treaties with the Lone Wolf V.
Hitchcock ruling of 1903. Even if your ancestors came
here in 1900, they are the beneficiaries of the US
Government's unquenchable thirst for land, not to mention those people promoting white flight and the
building of homes in former corn fields. Indigenous
People live in spite of your assimilationary attitudes.
We don't have to join anything. We were and are here.
Chahta sia hoke, sa okla ut chahta okla hannali. 514
years of death, theft, genocide of people and culture
at the hands of supposedly civilized Christian Europeans
hasn't changed this, we are here and we still are who we are, in spite of the measuring sticks that anthropologists and other scientifically-minded ethnocentric academics use to say we've lost our culture.
You say land, I say yakni, you say moon, I say Hushi
bolukta, you say ok, I say hoke. We celebrate because
we have something to remember.
smallpox-infected blankets were advocated and used as a biological weapon by General Geoffrey Amherst at Fort Detroit in 1758, during the French and Indian War, against Odawa leader Pontiac and coalition of Algonquian
and Haudenosaunee warriors in their
siege of Fort Detroit. I recalled this
off of the top of my head.
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
the wurm wrote:
"So instead of self-absorbed pity and an absurd chip on your shoulder why don't you and your people work on improving your lot in life and becoming a part of this country instead of lamenting the one you lost over 100 years ago?" There goes another white boy with a god complex insisting that we get with the program. Just so you know, God is not white, the white man does NOT know what is best for everyone, and if you don't like the fact that you must listen to the original inhabitants express anger, then ROW your hairy a** back to the motherland of europe. How can you sit there and say we should improve our lot when it was due to the invasion of the European snakes that "our lot" was compromised in the first place?? The reason we must improve, is because we were subjegated by disease ridden wanna be Christians. And as for being defeated militarily, the bow and arrow was a better close combat WEAPON than the "musket"! Our numbers were drastically reduced and we could not defend ourselves because the white man was crawling with all kinds of germs!! Read a history book and you'll find Europeans did not bath because they considered it immodest. Then you say to become a part of this country, as if WE were the ones who are interfering with YOUR society. Why couldn't your people come in and join OUR society, instead of murdering everything in sight? Hell, YOU should be the one getting on you knees thanking us for this land!! But as usual, the only thing you people believe in is whoever has the biggest guns is right. Thats what you are is just a "worm"! And I am sorry to God for insulting his creation of the worm in comparing them to this person!! And your archaeologists are always coming up with theories as to who the first people are, as if there is some hidden agenda to be waged, so the whites can justify there presence on this continent. Those are "theories" NOT facts, although you and others like you think they are the same thing. Do yourself a favor and do some research on your own, everyone of you pinheads!!!
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
no I'm not talking about kenniwick man I'm not talking about celtic peoples who migrated here long before "natives" if that's what you want to call them. there have been artifacts like arrowheads that were made to specific design by a certain group of people that were commonly found on the coasts of what is now modern day france. these people were the only ones that flinted the arrowheads in the way that they did for these to pop up in the US along the Atlantic Coast is more than just coincidence
BOE (anonymous) says…
What, no song lyrics from Marion?
Guess it's up to me, then.
-
The Great Nations of Europe
By Randy Newman
The Great Nations of Europe, they stand upon the shore
They conquered what was behind them, and now they wanted more
So they looked to the mighty ocean, they looked to the western sea
The Great Nations of Europe in the 16th century
Hide your wives and daughters, hide your groceries too
The Great Nations of Europe are coming through
The Grand Canary Islands, first land in which they came,
They conquered all the canaries there which gave the land its name
There were natives there called Gwanchies, Gwanchies by the score
But bullets, disease, the Portuguese they weren't there anymore
Now they're gone, they're gone. They're really gone
You've never seen anyone so gone
They're pictured in a museum, some lines written in a book.
But you won't find a live one no matter where you look
Hide your wives and daughters, hide your groceries too
The Great Nations of Europe are coming through
Columbus sailed for India, found Salvador instead
He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead
They got TB and typhoid and athletes foot, diphtheria and the flu
Excuse Me! Great nations are coming through
Balboa found the Pacific and on the trail one day
he found some friendly Indians, whom he was told were gay...sooo..
He had them torn apart by dogs on religious grounds they say
The Great Nations of Europe were quite holy in their ways.
Now they're gone, they're gone. They're really gone
Some bones hidden in a canyon, some paintings in a cave
There's no use trying to save them, there's nothing left to say
Hide your wives and daughters, hide your sons as well
With the Great Nations of Europe, you never can tell.
From where you and I are standing, the dawn of a century
Europe's have sprung up everywhere, as you and I can see
But there on the horizon is a possibility
Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me
Destroying everything in its path from sea to shining sea
Like the Great Nations of Europe, in the 16th century.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
so why would we get on our knees and thank you for the land you all stumbled upon like your people sprang up out of the earth from different parts of the US, shaypshifter you are just another angry REDMAN. don't be angry that our immune systems were far more developed than your peoples or the fact that your people teamed up with whites to go after the enemy tribes don't blame us that your people never claimed this land as "theirs" but as it's own intenty if they had maybe the "whiteman" wouldn't have outsmarted your people into signing treaties that handed us the land aside from a few of the original settlements very minimally was any land taken viciously by the US
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
hey leperchaun quack! don't believe everything you see on the discovery channel! like I keep saying, look things up and quit believing the crap they feed you on a repeated basis....war is peace....you must obey....
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
I look up stuff like this everyday and learn about this everyday this is stuff I go to school for, maybe you shouldn't believe everything your medicine man feeds to your brain and don't look up all your information from your tribal elders or from other angry "natives"(as you all like to call yourselves) you need to get over what you all think your situation is your race went through what every other race in human history has at some point gone through get over it move on take advantage that your people have made the US government feel bad about what our past leaders did to you and take your free food and schooling and make something of yourself instead of sitting there talking about how you still have inequality
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
wurm wrote:"a few of the original settlements very minimally was any land taken viciously by the US". Where do you get your information from Bill O'Reilly? Seriously, I want citations and references. With everything the US is doing now, and how this government has lied to you, especially about the current conflict in the mideast, lied to the soldiers about WMD's,lied to people about fighting for freedom, at the same time limiting the, supposed freedoms, here with the Patriot Acts I, II and III, all of this, why do you continue defending the US. you say land was not taken viciously, then I ask, how else did they take over this continent?? They didn't ask for it! They weren't nice about it! The longest military campaign the US was ever involved in was the so-called "Indian Wars." And as far as being "outsmarted" there is nothing smart about lying. You may find it a noble virtue, but our people were very trustworthy and continually were taken advantage of that fact. When you make an agreement you are suppose to keep it. Our people lived by our words, yours were always trying to swindle each other, thats why you have all these laws and protocols about signing everything and why we got to have birth certificates and ID's to function....that was a virtue the Europeans brought with them....
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
so who has been talking about the government now? umm...or the patriot act I dont' believe mentioning either of those, but yes it is outsmarting someone if your people didn't have the brains to be like "hey they've already done conned us out of land once or twice lets not sign and make treaties with other tribes against them, but no your people couldn't or wouldn't do that, by the way do you know all of your genetics I'd be willing to bet that you have atleast a very small portion of the white blood that you seem to hate so much, plus the fact that your "native" blood is asian so why don't you leave this land ruled by people you hate so much and go back to your true native land of asia it'd make it easier for us whites
shaypshifter (anonymous) says…
make it easier for what? so you don't have to hear about it? you people always want to act like your better than the rest of us. What a NAZI!! You'd fit right in there with Himmler and the rest of the S.S.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
haha good one "you people" is that a racist comment, I can't believe that ALL people think that it's ok for every race to talk about any and every race except white people, no we don't act like we're better we actually more or less know that we are that's why we colonized most of what is the modern world, face it sh*tshifter if it wasn't for us whites it would have very well have been someone else, oh and for your information I may have a lil german in me but I also have jewish german and polish in as well and with the great and heralded irish background in my family you think that I don't understand a group of people being opressed by another it happens everywhere in the world and has since humans have been around quit acting like you inguns are the only ones that this happened to
Shardwurm (anonymous) says…
"How can you sit there and say we should improve our lot when it was due to the invasion of the European snakes that "our lot" was compromised in the first place??"
This is a great example of being filled with self-pity and blaming everyone else for your problems.
I never said God was white. Your 'country' was invaded and you lost. It's pretty simple. Were there a lot of shady things that happened? Were there atrocities commited by the Europeans? Yep. Were you screwed? Probably.
But you see, you have two choices:
1. Live in the past and blame everyone else for the fact that you can't get beyond your self-imposed limitations.
2. Disregard what happened decades before anyone alive today was even born and realize that YOU live today in a country where there is no limit to what you can become...unless you subscribe to point #1.
My father was an alcoholic who beat my mother while she was pregnant with me. My sister was a drug addict who died of overdose 18 months ago. My mother was single and raised 4 kids by herself. I had no father figure. I could use all of that as an excuse for why I can't get on in life. Instead I realize that I am what I am and there is nothing I cannot achieve if I'm willing to make the sacrifice.
You might try that some time and see what happens. As a Native American you have more advantages than I do to get started. There is a TON of legislation that gives you a leg up that I don't have. So instead of sniveling about how your Great-Great-Great-Grandfather got hosed out of a bison hunt why don't you strap it on and get out there and make something of yourself?
I would think your ancestor would be more impressed with that then to see you wallowing in self-pity.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Wow some of you people are close-minded. All the arguments against this protest I've seen are "you're just jealous because we had the technology/our immune systems were more developed/you were barbarians, too/you lost, get over it."
Makes me ashamed of who I am because of people like you. Leprechaun, you're outright racist. I can't believe you.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
no I state the true facts just because you are blind to them or are too afraid of what others will think of you to state what is right and/or true that's not my fault and no I'm not a racist, however there seem to be many "natives" posting on here who are racist so I hope tychoman that you are not one of the whites that just stands there and takes the verbal lashing that every other race seems to think we deserve, but I hate people arguing points that aren't there to begin with or people talking about how they had their lands stolen 600 years ago as pilgrim put it "boo freakin hoo" and shardwurm thank you for posting something worth reading here and showing them what they're people should have done and still can do and should do instead of how most of them choose choice #1
Shardwurm (anonymous) says…
"Shardwurm ... It's well-established legal tradition that those who receive stolen property are culpable regardless of whether or not they are the original thieves."
You're a pretty funny guy. Can I catch you on Comedy Central?
By the accepted international law of the time this country was conquered and settled by Europeans. I'm sorry. You may not like it but that is the way it is. I would like to see your legal title to the land though. Oh wait - you didn't have any because you controlled land by force not law.
Live by the bullet die by the bullet? It would seem that before the Europeans you were killing yourselves for land pretty nicely. So when someone stronger shows up now it's not fair? Doesn't fly Sir.
Can you name for me a single country that exists today that is still in the possession of its original inhabitants? I'll wait while you look that up.
History is full of winners and losers. The borders of countries have changed dozens of times. You don't have to like it but your people lost a war. That's the way it is and you won't change it. The longer you ponder that the longer you'll just be another loser.
Germany lost two wars last century and they're an economic juggernaut. Japan got nuked twice 60 years ago and they're stronger than ever. In fact, the best thing that ever happened to them was to lose the war. Just like the Native Americans we gave them everything they needed to become successful. The difference? They took advantage of it and moved ahead. You're still living in a past that will not change no matter what you say.
By the way - I'm a Native American too - I was born in Minnesota.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Shardwurm are you saying that Germany and Japan should thank us for the situation they're in? Are you saying that because of the U.S. the world is such a better place, more advanced and all that? That was 60 years ago, why can't you let things go?
"Can you name for me a single country that exists today that is still in the possession of its original inhabitants?"
--China, Africa, Middle East, Europe.
"You don't have to like it but your people lost a war." It wasn't a war, it was a massacre and illegal.
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
classclown (Class Clown) says…
""Can you name for me a single country that exists today that is still in the possession of its original inhabitants?"
--China, Africa, Middle East, Europe."
========================================
Only one of those is a country.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Man oh man I wish this argument were in a real room, face to face so I could stand up and applaud you for opening my eyes to all the beautiful things the white man has done for the world. By the way, leprechaun I wasn't even referring to you or answering your question.
I answered Shardwurm's question, you brought up different subjects in history and threw them back in my face. You're terrible at arguing.I should thank you for being the first all-out racist I've ever spoken to (that I know of). You're expanding my horizons, leprechaun.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
I figured whole regions rather than countries would make a better point, clown.
Katara (anonymous) says…
Marion wrote:"The Americas were ripe for the taking by any culture which had developed seagoing navies and superior weapons technology."
Really? Then explain this...
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistor...
And if anyone is in doubt about how Marion feels about anyone who doesn't claim European heritiage, you may peruse this thread
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/sep...
Here is a select quote from that thread that I'm sure will enlighten you.
"I am 1/8 "Native American" and recognise exactly why that culture FAILED and why it should NOT be emulated.
I much prefer to follow my European heritage.
Ya'll have a nice day.
Thanks.
Marion."
Her words speak for themselves.
crazyks (anonymous) says…
Marion is a man.
The female version is usually spelled "Marian".
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
do you know what a racist is hmmmmm? if that's your definition of a racist than I am a racist because I am white basically because incase you haven't notice whites are the butt of every racial joke from every group of people why is it only racist when white people do it? tychoman I threw that back in your face cause you obviously wouldn't comment on mine and because your argument is dumb besides the fact that you said nothing about religions you couldn't say anything to the fact that I was right about those "countries" as you called them I see 1 country and 3 continents and you are right about that one the continents have stayed the same and I wish this was face to face myself just so I see the look on your pitiful face every time I shot one of your incoherent ramblings down
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
oh and tychoman the middle east is a section of eurasia that's split into many countries and many of those warring nations have changed the boundaries on those many times over the last 50 years
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
"your argument is dumb." Wow I'm offended. That snarky remark is going to keep me up all night.
"pitiful face." Holy crap I'm telling on you!
But seriously, me hearty, did you not read my post where I explained why I posted regions instead of countries? I didn't comment on yours because I didn't see it, don't be so insulted. I called you a racist because that's what you are. I never said that white people can't make racist comments about others and that other races can make cracks about whites. Nothing of the sort. Besides, you haven't shot any of my "incoherent ramblings" down because: none of my ramblings ARE incoherent. Ramblings, yes, but very coherent for most people who have a mastery of capitalization and general good grammar, unlike some fictional creatures who portray themselves as monarchs with unlucky numbers.
Katara (anonymous) says…
@ BOE
These song lyrics are the ones I thought of when you posted yours.
White man came across the sea,
Brought us pain and misery.
Killed our tribes, killed our creed,
Took our game for his own need.
We fought him hard, we fought him well,
Out on the plains we gave him hell.
But many came, too much for Cree,
Oh will we ever be set free?
Riding through dustclouds and barren wastes,
Galloping hard on the plains.
Chasing the redskins back to their holes,
Fighting them at their own game.
Murder for freedom, a stab in the back.
Women and children and cowards attack.
Run to the hills, run for your lives.
Run to the hills, run for your lives.
Soldier blue in the barren wastes,
Hunting and killing for game.
Raping the women and wasting the men,
The only good Indians are tame.
Selling them whisky and taking their gold,
Enslaving the young and destroying the old.
Run to the hills, run for your lives.
Run To The Hills
by Iron Maiden
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
well those regions have still been changed over and over and over through history so your point still isnt' valid why don't you get that. So now you think it's ok for whites to make racist comments as well? wow I'd really like for you to clarify this for me cause I've seen plenty of other racist comments throughout this whole discussion most of them indian comments yet I don't see you saying one word about those seems you have some sort of double standard going. and yeah if this was face to face it would be pitiful cause you wouldn't get a word in edgewise
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
my original post had nothing to do with this anyway my original point was that the so called "natives" shouldn't protest so hard about this being their land because they weren't the original inhabitants
Katara (anonymous) says…
Posted by crazyks (anonymous) on October 10, 2006 at 7:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Marion is a man.
The female version is usually spelled "Marian".
crazyks, many baby books would disagree with you along with good ol' Mrs. C from Happy Days. I'm thinking it is more of a unisex name either way.
Though the meaning of his name is most apropos for him.
"war-like, bitter."
BOE (anonymous) says…
" by Moira: October 10, 2006 at 7 p.m.
Leprechaunking13,
Personal attacks are not allowed here. Read the ToA please. "
====
And to what may be of additional interest to some, the ToA's appear to have no prohibition on multi-paragraph postings.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
"So now you think it's ok for whites to make racist comments as well?" Show me where I said that.
"I've seen plenty of other racist comments throughout this whole discussion most of them indian comments yet I don't see you saying one word about those seems you have some sort of double standard going." I have seen no racist-against-white comments so far.
"If this was face to face it would be pitiful cause you wouldn't get a word in edgewise." Oh the potential to have fun with that sentence...Heck, why not? I wouldn't be able to get a word in edgewise because of your inane babbling, racist rants, and bad enough English it's difficult to understand what your point is trying to be.
Two words: use grammar. Does the 13 in your name refer to your age?
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
And OMB smashes another one clear out of the ballpark!
All in good fun, Marion. :)
johaskell (anonymous) says…
What a bunch of Columbus Day.
BOE (anonymous) says…
" by Katara on October 10, 2006 at 8:21 p.m.
@ BOE
These song lyrics are the ones I thought of when you posted yours. "
===
Thanks Katara. Also had some Paul Revere and the Raiders lyrics floating thru my brain, but I'll skip posting them. ;)
But here's a link to rams of Randy Newman, when he performed on Prairie Home Companion. Sound is a little rough, though.
Just scroll to "Great Nations of Europe" ("Sail Away" is excellent, too.)
http://prairiehome.publicradio.org/pr...
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Oh, the Marian Sydney Lynn. She's hot when she's fiesty. Or drunk off gin.
jayhawkster (anonymous) says…
Definitely an impassioned debate with interesting posts, but I've yet to see a feasible solution.
I think I might have one (unless your Italian-American... then you're just going to have to go eat some rigatoni).
Honestly, I don't give two scheizes what the day is called, so lets make everyone (except the Italian-American's) happy, and call it Sitting Bull Day! Shoots, in Venezuela they call it Day of the Indigenous Resistance. We could take that route, but I'm all about brevity.
Any beef? Going once... twice... sold! Hereafter on this forum we will refer to the second Monday on October as Sitting Bull Day.
Solid! I love solutions.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Yep, shapeshifter you are absolutley right...we are diery lying barbarians....Man it takes some stones to to proudly beard the whitey lion like you are doing....oh wait, you insult people(True, you were goaded a little) but will not put up a real name.....I asked for an apology for saying We do not have any culture.... and you started going off at people....I'll tell you what...how about I arm and armor myself in 15th century gear from my culture and you in yours and let's go at it....? sound fair? After all now you do not have the disease thing crippling you.....So what do you say....I'm all for an honorable fight....would you be up for it or would you be to busy trying to steal my horses and cattle?
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
exscuse me....DIRTY , lying barbarians....
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Hell, I'd even go bronze age against you....i should be a pushover...a fat, slobby white guy is no match against a warrior such as your self....
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Or we could go un armored with bows....I'll take an welsh longbow and you take one from your culture and we can fire arrows at each other.....wait, my bow can shoot 250yards and yours can't.....OK, you can go horse back and I'll be on foot.....no, that won't work because you got horses from us.....hmmm..allright back to the bronze age gear, that sounds the most fair.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
atalatls at dawn!
independentlyindigenous (anonymous) says…
First of all, this day is not a protest but a celebration of indigenous tribal solidarity or you can look it up on these web sites as sovereignty:
http://www.ncai.org/
http://www.aio.org/
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/
too bad everyone( leprechaun,Marion,chzypoof1,Solomon)
we survived ! Guess our "immune systems" weren't that bad after all.
By the way...hate to tell you but those of us who are survivors have been talking about all of this on an international level for some time. So all the countries that you original "immigrants" came from...your Indigenous Peoples know us and we are brothers and sisters with them. Too late! WE are organizing through tribal relations that we are continuing like our ancestors...visiting each other, marrying each other etc. WE are growing stronger every day the sun comes around.
Also, we know our languages and yours too! How many of "ours" do you know? Hmm that is right you "still don't know" what we are saying about "you all" in our own Indigenous tribal tongue here on this land base.
>continue on next post<
independentlyindigenous (anonymous) says…
>continued continue on next post<
independentlyindigenous (anonymous) says…
>continued> Marion try using spell check it is "your language" maybe your should use it properly..."we had to".
Just to let everyone else know...this story was posted on a major Indigenous news link. So we all know what is being said. That is how I found out about all these interesting "words of intelligence"
indigenous bolt of light & beauty!
Mimi (anonymous) says…
Well put IndependentlyIndigenous!!
It saddens me that people in our community have a very ignorant view on the Indigenous people of North America. But in response to all that has been said--
Hell No we will not get over it.
To honor a man who has comitted such brutality is not right. It sure is nice to have a day off but for what???
Somebody posted earlier change the word native for Jews of African Americans and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. That being said--If there were a "Hitler Day" would you be suprised if the Jews were opposed to such a holiday. I would think so! And this might be just a little off but could you imagine the people in Iraq celebrating "Bush Day?" After all he did liberate their people!!! How absurd!
I am native and I am proud. We all know that Colombus never made it up here to our shores but who cares?!? Natives are still affected by this today.
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
funny u all talk about your people your ways or your people looks to me like your enjoying the american lifestyle once your are in NM on the reservation maybe but u all are indoors on computers speaking english so I don't see your arguement right now about how you are winning this the war was over long long ago
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Longest...sentence...ever. I'll ask you again, does the 13 in your poster name refer to your age?
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
independentlyindigenous effin rox! I heart you! Leprechaunking13, don't be mad. Maybe you should get over it. I don't think you will ever see how this war is being won because you'd probably be too afraid to step foot on any reservation or even engage in a civil conversation. I want to thank everyone who truly supported the efforts of Indigenous people both here and across the globe. Without people who know the truth of what happened in the past and who are doing what they can TODAY to make a difference, we would all be close minded forever. Racism may still exist, small minds are everywhere, but we have endured this long. we are still here.
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
There is a lot of racist comments from boths sides here about what columbus day represents.
The flaw in the argument is we were here first so you took our land. We all are arrogant to think the geographic layout of the world has been the same for 100,000 of years so who was on the land 400 years ago has sole claim to it. That is crazy.
Global warming is the catch phrase now and by even Gore's claims the US is in in trouble of being sucked into the ocean. We know for a fact portions of middle US were under water and have prehistoric fossils to prove it. What was it like 10,000 years ago...we know of specific warming and cooling trends.
It has been majorly disputed on all fronts Columbus was not the first to discover the Americas and documentation shows norse and celtic artifacts along the Alantic coasts dating farther back than 400+ years ago. does that mean the Europeans should lay claim to it. How about the SOutheast Asians like the Polyniasians (SP), Malayians and Filipinos claiming the Western coast because the Kennewick Man is a direct decendant.
We need to make this more simple. Man in general is warlike and will take things by force when they are in need and ALSO when they just WANT and have no other means to take it other than force. Execpt in very few situations and cultures, this is clear across the board in both European and Native American Cultures. We need to take a hard look at ourselves as indivuals both culturally and socially.
We have to think how we can break down the barriers between groups. My family immigrated to the US from Germany and Italy in the 1920s and 1930s. Were they NAzis and Facists... no...many ended up returning to Europe to fight them.
Lots of things upset me about history but we as a group who care need to find more constructive ways of finding solutions. Lawrence is full of people who want to protest and point out problems without presenting common sense solutions.
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
Katara
Iron Maiden Kicks ass been listening to them since the the self titled album.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
There are MANY comments I wish to refer to but they since there are so many and others have already responded (strongly) to it, I will leave those be. But I will say some things about these past posts. I took the time out of my day to read every single one of theses posts, during class and during work. I would have responded and read to these posts yesterday but I had to many classes and no time to look at the site later that day. Here is what I say.
marion: You pissed me off the most, you have no knowledge of the culture nor the people. You claim 1/8th Native, but you don't know anything about your heritage do you? You claim to have all these facts out of books, which books did you read? Did you read only ones about the white man or did you actually make a small effort to read ones written by Natives? Just as was suggested by mojorrisin1 and independentlyindigenou. Books that shouldn't be needed for our tradition of history is oral.
It is true the Europeans had technology over us, at that time, but it doesn't mean they were the better fighters. There were battles and wars we won because the Generals or w/e you want to call them had no military strategy to speak of, at all. You also say that "to understand history, it must be viewed from the standpoint of the time in question without the imposition of contemporary standards." I agree, but I say to that is Columbus' own fellow country men believe what he did was harsh and brutal, I would even go so far as to say barbaric.
You also quote many things, so far that I've seen it's from movies. It makes me believe you get your knowledge from movies or television, not books at all. Our culture was NOT "OUT of time." Your "culture" destroyed its home, what the Great Spirit, Creator, God, or whatever your name for he/she/it is, so it had they had to find a new place to live and survive. Then they destroy our home. They also wanted to escape religious discrimination and the suffering of being a different race so they come over here and do what was happening to them to us.
Technology isn't all that is important, as you noticed, because of technology Mother Earth is dying. Soon she will no longer be able to support us.
Another thing, you may not write history, but you preach as though you know all. You say to shaYpeshifter, "you responded in exactly the manner in which I planned for you to respond; you were so taken aback by what I said about dealing with physical confrontations that you laughed:. I'm not poking fun at you; yours is the typical response and my comments were designed to provoke exactly that response. Additionally I have created doubt in your mind: you are thinking and because you don't know for sure, you would hesitate and lack confidence even for the shortest moment but that short moment is all that a properly trained and experienced opponent needs to achieve victory." This is arrogance at its highest point.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
shardwurm: Though there was war, it was for a reason. Was there not war in wherever it is your ancestors came from? But war wasn't done out of cruelty. Your family may have been driven from their homes, but would it not bother you if the people who did it celebrated it every year? You say we have two choices.
1. Live in the past and blame everyone else for the fact that you cant' get beyond your self-imposed limitations.
2. Disregard what happened decades before anyone alive today was even born and realized that YOU live today in a country where there is no limit to what you can become: unless you subscribe to point #1.
Well the fact is, you don't understand Native history and culture, ours is to have knowledge and understand the past as well as prevent things such as this from happening in the future. American "culture," if you can call it that, does teach history but only one side and doesn't do anything to prevent the events happening in the past happen in the future, it is evident with the war in Iraq today. (The also applies to Rationalanimal.)
You say "as Native Americans you have more advantages than I do to get started. There is a TON of legislation that gives you leg up that I don't have." That is a HUGE misunderstanding. If we do get one or two small things, it is because it was what is owed to us, that and a heck of a lot more. It is as another person put it, we paid in blood. You say you are Native American, ha. You have no ties to the culture. You aren't native, you an apple if anything.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
blue73harley: (October 10, 2006 @ 1:41 p.m.) you say to shaypshifter "although you try to separate yourself from the facts, if you are a citizen of the United States, this government is as much your as it is mine. You have the same rights and responsibilities as I do. You are free to make choices too. Only you choose to live in the past. I choose to move on." In response to the fact that we are all citizens of the U.S. it shouldn't be that way. I should only have to be a citizen of my people. Whites are the visitors just as if someone goes to the Ukraine or China or Japan they are a visitor there. It just so happens that whites decided to force themselves into permanent residence. As to the second part, I've already replied to that.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
moneywrench1969: you said that "75% of Native Americans have asian prehistoric dna markers and 3% prehistoric European dna markers" well my response to that is that I do not entirely trust dna research such as that. Making sure someone's baby is theirs yes I'll believe that but that there are such specific markers as that? It is in some ways believable but there is also people out there claiming that there are way to test to see if someone is native just by taking their blood and then they go even so far as to say they can find which tribe the dna originated from. Should we believe those as well?
Tempest (anonymous) says…
leprechaunking13: You pissed me off as much as Marion did. You say "don't be angry that our immune systems were far more developed: don't blame us that your people never claimed this land as 'theirs'." Your immune systems might've been stronger but that has nothing to do with it. That disease was over in Europe for a reason. We didn't claim the land because it wasn't ours, we were just living off what was given to us. Mother Earth as an entity of her own, she is not ours to claim. We would were sharing her.
You say "take your free schooling and make something of yourself instead of sitting there talking about how you still have inequality." There is no such thing as free when it comes to whites. Everything has been paid 50 times over by our ancestors and they didn't even know what they were paying for! Besides the fact, we still pay for many of the things you believe we get free, the government does not fulfill its promises and we do not get anything without a price still.
You say "your people didn't have the brains to be like 'hey they've already done conned us out of land once or twice lets not sign and make treaties with other tribes against them, but no your people couldn't or wouldn't do that." What you don't understand is that our Native ancestors mostly tried to see the good in others and that no matter if they made treaties with other tribes or with the government themselves, whites would still take the land. they are still trying to take more today!!! even when we have bairly any left!!!
Last but no least: you say "no we don't act like we're better we actually more or less know that we are that's why we colonized most of what is the modern world: if it wasn't' for us whites it would have very well been someone else." Well that first part is most defiantly saying you are a White Supremacist, tell you the truth, kinda makes me wonder if you are part of the KKK. To the second part, whose to day it was someone else? You guys might went on believing the world was flat. Another thing, it probably would've been a lot later if someone else "discovered" us. Also, what most whites fail or choose not to recognize is the fact that Vikings and others had been trading peacefully with us LONG before Columbus ever headed this way.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
As for those I agree with and have supported and argued for Natives I say thanks and am glad to be apart of that group. I would especially like to thank samurai_5 and ControlFreak, I was happy and excited whenever I read your posts. I also agree with independentlyindigenous, cool person.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
Hmm.
I've read this article and many of the posts closely, and yet I am still puzzled.
What is the purpose of this protest, and the desired beneficial result of it?
Demonizing Columbus might be helpful for rallying protestors, but it cheapens the actual history and situations by making them terribly two dimensional.
Pretending that native populations were, in any way, idyllic and unspoiled cultures before the evil white man came, cheapens them as well.
Not recognizing that history contains stories of great injustices and evils is just as reprehensible as ignoring the positives.
I suppose what I'm trying to understand here is what will this hoped-for-annual event actually do to make the current situation better? To lessen rather than exacerbate racial conflict? To promote unity and harmony, rather than feed self-destructive fires of division and alienation?
Or is it a situation where division and alienation ARE the perceived 'positive results'?
bunnyhawk (anonymous) says…
75x55 gee........are those your verbal and performance iq scores?
the point of the protest is to remind us all that our school book versions of AmeriKan History don't tell the whole story! Why don't you get your head of that dark place and examine the history of how we treated indigenous American peoples across this continent......about our soldiers who slaughtered women and babies who were already starving to death because we'd forced them onto barren lands?
gr (anonymous) says…
Has anyone ever proved the indians ever existed and was not a fabricated myth for extortion? Bunny (what a name) indicates school book versions are incorrect. Maybe the whole thing is fabricated. Any proof it's not?
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
I see the point you are trying to make....but answer this, if somebody jumped up on this board and talked about the murders and rapes that happened to the settlers from the hands of the tribes...Would or would they not be called racists and hate mongers? or would people try to justify it by saying they were defending their land?or would they say these things never happened?
i am only pointing out that when people use absolute arguements and try to idealize their point, they will end up in the kind of arguements you see here.....and I am talking about both sides here being guilty of not bending in their position.
as_I_live_and_breathe (anonymous) says…
Posted by tweetybird2 writes.
"Solomon,
Not all Native Americans live with the comforts we do. I have a friend who is native american who grew up in a shack with no indoor plumbing. There was not enough room in the shack for he and his brothers to sleep so they slept outside every night all year round. They bathed in the creek."
Doesn't this describe the idyllic life that was stolen from them?
75x55 (anonymous) says…
Bunny, bunny, bunny..... your bilious response is a perfect example of what I was pointing out. Fighting, division, alienation - it's all self destructive thinking and reacting.
What good does that do?
I don't know what "school book histories" you speak of, unless you're at least 65 or older - that allegedly sanitized presentation has been gone for some time. The only problem with most history school books today is that some tend to go to the extreme in the other direction (ie., Howard Zinn's abomination) or are so simplistic as to be functionally useless.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
75x55,
those books you don't believe are tought anymore are still tought. They are updated with the current "history" as you so call it such as 9/11 and all that but I grew up with history books that still don't tell the entire story. I knew both sides because my mother taught me what wasn't taught to me in school.
as_I_live_and_breath,
that in no possible way discribes the life of Natives before Europeans got here. We lived indoors, just no the same structure as you did, we may not have had indoor plumming but neither did you until someone thought of it, and who is to say we wouldn't of thought of it ourselves? we had more than enough room for whatever form of shelter we lived in.
As for the purpose of the protest, I was there and participated. If you still dont' understand after that question has been answered twice, you won't understand if it is restated again.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Here is a question...and please do not take it like I am stirring the sh!t pot......Why did the northren american tribes(or at least the ones who traded with central america) never picked up on using the domesticated llama? They had them for a long time down there, yet they never made their way north....Anybody?
75x55 (anonymous) says…
"those books you don't believe are tought anymore are still tought. "
OK, you've proven your point.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
go into an elementry school, middle school, highschool, more than likely even a college and look at the history books. see if they tell the whole story of Columbus and the day he "discovered" american and what happened afterwards.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
See if they tell the whole story of world war I....have they sanitized for the sake of brevity...most likley...Is there elements of propaganda....most assuredly....I'm not trying to call you out tempest....I take umbrage at people like shaypshifter who uses only the bits of history HE wants and will never concede that their is allways an ugly side to any arguement....so he has become the same beast he was fighting against.....And what about those llamas?
75x55 (anonymous) says…
"And what about those llamas?"
They spit?
They taste better than dog?
Tempest (anonymous) says…
Because there was no need for llamas? I don't know. I'm not central native.
Agent_X (anonymous) says…
You know nothing Tempest.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
I've no idea what you are reffering to. If you are trying to bait me you'll have to do better than that.
HRmom (anonymous) says…
I am half Native American and Half a mix of "other"....this post has brought out the best and worst in people here...maybe the Indian wars are indeed not over.
I am NOT living on a reservation...I do NOT have a Native American Tribal card. I do NOT expect the government to support me because I am 1/2 Native American. I am happy, however, that our freedom of speech is still alive and well. Everyone here has a right to their viewpoint regardless of what it is. I value those of you who may not agree with another's viewpoint and yet treat them with some respect about it. The Native American population gets smaller and smaller with time it seems. For all of those who don't agree with the Native Americans on these issues, just wait. The Native Americans will probably be just a memory one day and nobody will have to fight about it anymore. Facisious, yes?
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
For all you naysayers on the site (75x55, Shardwurm, etc.) keep in mind that history is written by those who WON.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
exactly!!! Thank you Tychoman.
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
Tempest.
Research and technology has become so advanced in the past 20 years they can do just that. Additionally in the last three years they have mapped out dna to the point of determining when certain hereditary diseases may begin development and enhancement through specific strands and combinations, which includes but is not limited to ethnic groups.
Believe it or not someof this research came as a result of the war on terror and the fear of biological warfare and the use of specific diseases, namely mad cow. This research is making leaps and bounds as a result in the areas of "old timers", CF and other hereditary diseases related to the pirons.
Don't get caught up with the christian right in not trusting science because it might disprove a previous theory. I think at the time of Columbus they thought hte world was flat. One of the things I remember from my "indoctrination by the man" concerning Columbus was he wanted to prove the world was round rather than flat because the "scientists" of the time believed you would fall off the end of the earth. I was taught his theory was when he watched a boat sail away the sail would drop down into the sky line instead of just get smaller so he concluded the earth was round. The other thing I took away from it was he wanted to find a faster trade route to India and that was how he accidentally came across the Americas. If there is a problem...explore new avenues to solve it not rest on old bad information. Of course this was the lesson I took away from it.
HRmom (anonymous) says…
True, Tychoman.....and the Native Americans passed thier history from one generation to another through verbal means and stories only....so who has the upper hand in what goes into the history books? You hit the nail on the head.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
"For all you naysayers on the site (75x55, Shardwurm, etc.) keep in mind that history is written by those who WON."
Is it? There seems to be quite a list of books above that were written by those that probably wouldn't put themselves on the 'winning side'.
'naysayer'? I'm a 'naysayer' to what?
Nay perhaps to having to pick one of the two sides being the 'correct' one.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
As for the christian right in not trusting science, I am not christian. I didn't say I don't trust science, I said I don't entirely believe everything they claim they can do. I find science sad in a way because it seems some people can only accept things once they have an explination behind something. They can't accept something that is natural for what it was, natural. They always have to discover new things, have explinations for the unexplainable.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
Those books listed were just recently written and aren't read or taught in classes.
75x55 (anonymous) says…
"Those books listed were just recently written and aren't read or taught in classes."
Hmm... that's convenient.
Seem to recall being assigned to read a Dee Brown book published in 1970, oh... probably 25+ years ago in a class. That and several others of the genre that were coming out about that time. Not to mention histories of the Trail of Tears, etc.
No, this isn't a 'recent' discovery in American history. Many many of us cut our teeth on this history, quite some time ago.
Again, what am I 'naysaying'?
Tempest (anonymous) says…
When were you assigned those books? In college I'm guessing? After you were already ignorant of the rest of American History?
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
Rednekkedbuddha,as a card carrying native I can testify that llamas are too greasy and they spit.
llama mall.
palindrome.Cool?
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
too many natives who can't get over what happened so long ago you are in this situation deal with it whites aren't leaving and you will have to deal with everyone in this country and this government for a great deal longer so maybe you should take your situation and make the best out of it instead of wallowing in self pity for 2 days like you all have
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
Tempest
With your analogy why do you have to have an explanation for the unexplainable. Many cultures without science of some sort do the exact same thing. How many Native American stories explain the reason for rain, the sunset, reason for th egreat white buffalo (personally I like the short live version by Ted Nugent)...
Every culture has an explanation.
Anyone who wants to sit stagnant, needs to prapare for disappointment when their belief system is disproven. It is important to get a variety of sources for your information including those you do not agree with and search the truth.
Let me explain it in a "natural way" which has been discussed in Asian and some native american communities (hmmm another similarity in between Asian and Native American cultures). There are all types of similar stories of the rebirth and evolution of the mythological bird the phoenix every 1000 years. What is the moral... all aspects of life grow develop and come to an end and are eventually reborn which include ideas, thoughts and now science.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
agreed!
Self pity and baseball mascots accomplish nada!But, the constitutional right to gather and protest is good practice and many young people,native or whatever,need to realize this and practice it!!
Good for you Haskell students.
However,my original post still stands.So,bleaaa!!hahahahaha!!!
monkeywrench1969 (anonymous) says…
Also
It is harder to refute oral history than it is to refute written history. You can't destroy all books written on a subject but oral history can change with the perception of the orator and the motives of that person.
Have you ever played the game where you have a string of people and one person starts with a phrase and whispers it to the next person and at the end it sounds nothing like what was originally said.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
Leprechaun... musta used that to discribe your height, you don't have an room to talk. Who said anything about us wallowing in self-pity? You did. We just want to correct a wrong, we want the truth to be told. There is nothing we can do to change the past yes, but there is something we can do about changing the fact that part of the past is being ignored or covered up.
monkeywrench I never said that there weren't stories, that is our tradition, oral in other words stories. What I say about scientists is that they can't accept those stories, they have to have explanations why it happened, if it happened. That is why you won't really find many scientists who believe in religion. That game is just that, a game. History, our ancestors, our tribal history is NOT a game. Nothing something to fool around with a change, why do you think ones that do so are frowned upon?
About Asians and Natives have similarities, yes they should, as should all races considering we all experianced the same thing at the same time conserning natural disasters such as The Great Flood, or Noah's Arch as Christians put it and the other ways these stories are told by the diffrent races.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
so funny how the insults have nothing to do with the post, but how is this not self pity? honestly you think that oral traditions your people have passed down especially about whites hasn't been distorted any bit? you think that YOUR truths have stayed exactly the same? no of course not so maybe since you all have the great knowledge your people have provided you through the history you could take both sides and come up with an answer that everyone or most people can agree on instead of taking the stance we're right we have always been right cause I'm sorry if you believe that's the case cause you are very very wrong
Tempest (anonymous) says…
leprechaunking,
inorder to live in this world as a Native, you have to be able to think both ways unless you become completely colonized. oral history is hard to keep up with yes but there were ways to remember and there were elders who found those ways to keep passing on our stories and legends. writing and reading aren't required if you are able to remember what is imporant. yes, it is required now, but why does everything needed to be recorded on paper? if people stuck to their word, there would be no need for contracts, signing, the ability to read and write. That was how it was, before Europeans came and forced these upon Natives. If you believe you are completely in the right, you are extreamly disillusioned. I admit that there was wars and killing among tribes, but there were also reasons for the wars. Also, it wasn't (as anothe person put it perfectly) a massacre of a race, tribe, people. Even your own history books record the massacres.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Whoa! there is allways a need to read and write....The act it self is worth it...And a large % of europeans did not read or write....And they had mnemonic tricks to remember too.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Leprechaun, feel free to answer my question about the 13 referring to your age, because your ignorance, arrogance, and racism are really getting on my (and others') nerves. Don't even get me started on your grammar.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
If people in europe could get along without the ability to read or write then why did they force it upon people? Because it made them feel suprior to others.
I would like as well to know Leprechaun's age, and agree with Tychoman, about his comment that Leprechaun's ignorance, arrogance and recism is really annoying.
Katara (anonymous) says…
"Custer Died For Your Sins: An Indian Manifesto"
An excellent book. It was required reading in one of my classes, along with this book
http://www.amazon.com/Lakota-Woman-Ma...
and this book
http://www.amazon.com/Bury-Heart-Woun...
Very interesting reading.
@ monkeywrench1969
Bruce Dickinson is HAWT! Although that is not the reason I love the band.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
dude that's retarded...people started to learn how to read when they were allowed the chance..When reading started not being the province of the priests and the rich....the fact we are arguing this over a website is the definition of irony.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
that is why they tried to squelch the printing press....when the common scum had the ability to read what was going on in the world it pissed those who were in power off.....why they forced you guys into The schools was indoctrination... they were going to make think like a white man....not agreeing with it, but there it is.
crazyks (anonymous) says…
Are you saying that reading and writing are skills that Native Americans don't need? Would you rather they had never learned?
African Americans in this country at one time were not allowed to learn how to read and write. But many of them risked death in order to do it anyway.
But you don't think those skills are important? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Learning to read and write was a bad thing, because they were taught English?
I haven't heard anyone here saying that the old, old history books weren't wrong, and that a lot of bad things that were done, by both sides, weren't taught. But they are now, and they have been for many decades.
No one who is educated at all believes the old myths about natives and the Europeans anymore. No one here is denying that.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
good points crazyks, tychoman are we in english class? I think not, in fact the 13 is not the number of my age what does my age matter I can tell that even in my early 20's I have far more common sense and much clearer perception of the world than you. besides the fact that all you can come up with to throw at me is my grammar online? and a number in the name that I use? come on atleast if you are gonna try and offend me give me something to work me up you have failed to do so everytime and frankly you doing so is getting on MY nerves.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Oh please, Marion. Your attitude of "I meant to do this all along as an experiment, therefore I'm still better than you!" is such a crock.
Leprechaun, I haven't even tried to offend you. Merely pointing out some things about your (lack of) writing style that would make your misguided, racist points that much easier for the rest of us to read.
You say you're in your early 20s? Wow we're the same age. Now start writing (and thinking) like it.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
I think a friend of mine will explain to you all what this is all about. Since you seem to want to go off in many different directions, here is the actual perspective from a critical thinker, who just so happens to be Native American. Hopefully this will help explain.
"I watched a cool movie called "Trudell" the other day. It was awesome to say the least. Anyways when the reporter lady asked what John Trudell thought of Columbus Day he responded "Asking a Native American to celebrate Columbus is like asking America to celebrate Osama Bin Laden day."
Since we have days that honor killers (Columbus Day, Presidents Day, Thanksgiving), then we should go the full nine and celebrate them all. Why not establish new national holidays; Osama Bin Laden Day and Adolph Hitler Day. Call me un-American or unpatriotic or what have you but I think that a country celebrating a thief and mass murderer like Columbus is outright inhumane. Do you think Japan celebrates the days that we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki? (By the way, you noticed that we bombed Japan and NOT Germany right? The American governments are some racist bastards.)
I may even get in trouble (since the First Amendment no longer applies to U.S. citizens) but it goes as they say "the greater the risk, the greater the reward". Some of you may think that I am trying for self gain but really I want to educate you. Think for yourself. Don't believe what the mass media says. The government controls them, because if you do believe them, then you are supporting a system that oppresses people. They have done so in the past, and they continue to do so now (the War in Iraq). They do so here in our own country as well. There are children in this country who have nothing to eat as we speak. Let's take care of home before we try to take care of the rest of the world.
>>>> Continued <<<<
Tempest (anonymous) says…
>>>> Continued >>> Continue <<<<
Tempest (anonymous) says…
>>>> Continued <<<<
And some of you may ask "who does this have to do with Columbus Day?" It has everything to do with Columbus Day. Some of you may say "why protest Columbus, he's been dead for 500 years". Columbus' Ideas are very much alive. Only in this age we call it "Americanism" or "Democracy" or America's favorite "Freedom". The day that Columbus landed on America is the day that "The Idea" declared war on the Indigenous people of the Americas. We wouldn't live and think like they do, so they decided to kill us. Didn't work, I'm still here. But I'm sure they are still trying. And I know that it didn't just happen here. It happened to all Indigenous people in the world including Africa, the Philippines, Australia, etc. They enslaved Africans and brought them here to unwillingly work for nothing. They continue to do the same now but this time we enslave them in their own countries and make them work for nothing. The same system that enslaved a nation and made this country the richest country in the world is the same that tells you that you have to be the BEST even if you have to walk over your neighbor, that you have to buy certain GOODS to be HAPPY, that you have to believe a certain religion to be spiritual, that you have to submit to their SYSTEM of control or you will not be complete and it will be your own fault. Or so they tell you. And they tell you to your face. Yes they do, and you help them everyday by turning on the TV. Every time that you pump gas into your SUV, you celebrate Columbus Day. Every time you wave the American Flag, you are celebrating Columbus Day. Every time you put money into the collection plate at church, you are celebrating Columbus Day; God doesn't need money, he's god. Every time you buy an excessive amount of name-brand clothes and other sh*t you don't need, you are celebrating Columbus Day. Every time you think that our men and women in uniform overseas are doing a good job, dutifully violating human rights (killing innocent people, imposing colonialism) so that YOU and I can be FREE (does freedom still feel good?), you are celebrating Columbus Day. Bring the Troops Home now.
When you celebrate Columbus Day, you are celebrating: Greed, genocide, wars, Slavery, the destruction of cultures, ethnocentrism, Euro centrism, Religious persecution, racism, crimes against humanity. Should people be celebrating these things? That's for you to decide.
F*ck Columbus Day! F*ck Presidents Day! F*ck Thanksgiving! F*ck the Fourth of July! And F*ck the government.
Some people may say "If you don't like this country, then leave." Well I say to them "if you love this country so much, how come y'all f*cked it up and what are you doing to fix it???" Don't tell me to leave. I'm the landlord, motherf*cker! Coming to collect his due."
I hope this clears things up for all those who don't understand and it also goes for those who think we are only arguing for Natives, it applies to all people.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Probably a bit much, Tempest, but I admire your passion.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
I try to see what we can achieve from this day forward.
I am grateful that our ancestors were looking out for us when they signed the treaties which guaranteed certain staples for us.they did this not by holding a grudge but by looking at the children and considering the generations ahead.That would be me.
Among these are the peace of mind of knowing that I always have a sliver of property on the rez in which to build a house someday.Free medical and dental(limited,but free)which many do not.The BIA offsets my son's tuition for which I am eternaly grateful.
Everyday these are under fire as the US Government is trying to weasel out of these laws but I will use them while they are available and I would urge anyone on their roles to do the same.
But what can we do as a people?For starters we can quit blaming the past and as stated by other posters,quit living in the past.Never forget it,but don't re-live it either.I think we do our ancestors and the ones who died at the hands of the new comers a great disservice by wasting our energy by holding this grudge.We can use that energy for more constructive things and become a major political force in this country if we would quit drinking and fighting amongst each other.If it isn't my tribe is better than your's,it's my family is better than your's.I heard this or that.She said he said...Anyone from indian country on this board knows exactly what im talking about.All that gangsta crap on the rez makes me wanna puke!I went home and saw "westside" painted on the side of a building.I had to ask,"westside of what?That beanfield?".I think,sometimes,that I'm too late.But thats the attitude that "they" want of me.
The passion of the young warriors society is good to see.the drunks talking smack about there tribe or "spirituality" weakens any credibility.Nobody loves a drunken indian.
The ones who repeat that we are "a defeated" people or "conquered race" have nothing to offer so let them rant.We have bigger fish to fry.
We as a people surrendered to guns and fire power.That was a hundred years ago.But they left something for us.Today we can surrender to the alcohol and gossip.Those things are poison to native people and we all know it.Now we have to consider our children.the land and the buffalo hunt is gone.Let's not die with it.For all you warriors that shout anger at the white man and western civilization turn that passion inward.Not the anger but the drive.Are you ready for that challenge?We can't win a war against the white man but we can be victorious when we play their game.
crazyks (anonymous) says…
I always thought that Thanksgiving was a celebration of both cultures, since the natives helped the colonists and kept them from starving.
That's what Thanksgiving is all about. To give thanks for what we have, not moan about what we don't.
kcwarpony (anonymous) says…
Well said geekin. I know exactly what you mean and I agree with you.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
so tempest why do you think that germany wasn't bombed....maybe because they had 4 fronts already on their asses with the US, the UK, France, and then Russia at the end and they were just about finished the japanese were the only stronghold left out of italy, germany and japan that was the only way to weaken them at that time, but I can see where you thought it was racist act with the order coming from a bushwhacking missouri native like truman, but it wasn't it was a tactical move to end the war everywhere. you have a really distorted view of world history as well as your own "american" history
tuschkahouma (anonymous) says…
quoted from American Indian Movement Member, Mr. Russell Means, Lakota, book, "Where White Men Fear
To Tread", in 1970, the 350th anniversary of the Pilgrim-
Wampanoag Nation meal was being celebrated by the
Pilgrim's descendants. Wampanoag Peoples, who'd
ancestors had been at the meal and had survived the
55 year aftermath that led to the Metacomet, or King
Philip's War of 1676-79, discovered a colonial decree
stating that there was to be a meal of thanks every time
it was announced that an Indian village had been wiped
out. A Wampanoag leader in 1970 was asked to speak
about Thanksgiving and his speech included this historical account. He was not allowed to speak by the
descendants of the village burners. Mr. Means gave his
famous survival speech at the base of the statue of
Massasoit, the Wampanoag leader, who tolerated the
thieving and oppressing Pilgrims so much so that his
son, Metacomet, didn't. Metacomet saw how his people
were treated in they years following that meal, and
led the uprisiing against the colonists, who eventually
killed Metacomet and put his head on a stake. The
male combatants were taken to Deer Island in the Boston Harbor, and sold into slavery in the Indies and
Bermuda. The descendants of these combatants came
back to the Schmetzun Celebration that the Mashantucket Pequots have every year. They remember
the stories of their ancestors, as they were brought to
Bermuda to slavery, 308 years ago. They live to tell their
stories as other Indigenous Peoples do of survival, just
like Columbus Day. Your history books sanitize the truth
for little children to be lied to. That's why we don't read them. Remember all of this as you celebrate genocide
in November.
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Marian Sydney Lynn =
Ignorance and Racism become you. You really are cute when you get drunk on the bathtub gin and your face turns the color of an overripe beet. I can feel the overwhelming aroma of cheap booze and self-importance when I see your posts.
Oh, whether or not you are 'hetersexual' has no relevence on whether you are male or female.
You so silly. Flippy flippy.
roger_o_thornhill (anonymous) says…
Read Howard Zinn.
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Marian -
Please spare us the long-winded recap of your numerous long-winded rants. I've read Jared Diamond as well and your regurgitations of his writings are kind of sad.
You so silly. Flippy flippy.
trinity (anonymous) says…
geekin, your post just was so very right on. thank you! my wish would be for everyone here (and heck, elsewhere too) to read it slowly, carefully, and let the words soak in to their psyches. wow. hats off to ya.
>>>passing geekin my daily Klondike bar! :)
number3of5 (anonymous) says…
I've read through most of the comments here. Some are so trivial that it is insulting to read them. The original story is lost in arguements that are downright ridiculous. Ja-la-gi ale yo-ne-ga a-gi-gv-ha-tli. Which for everyone's ability to understand says," I am part Cherokee and part white". I choose to claim the Cherokee ancestory. When I started reading beyond what was in history books, I cried. Yet, I wanted to learn more.
Yes, those history books were written by the "winning" side of my ancestory, but I was still appalled. I still am. Do we need to get over it, each person has to deal with this in their own way. Are we getting a free ride from the government, certainly not. I had to pay for my education at Haskell Indian Nations University. Sure it was not as expensive as it would have been at The University of Kansas. I don't get free money each month as some tend to believe. My earnings are taxed.
I do get a certain amount of my health care free. But not all of it.
Did the attrocities end after Columbus? No. How recently was the Black Hills taken from the Natives? When were the Native Peoples given the right to vote? Which president did the most to help the Native Peoples? These are not usually discussed in school history books. Even today, mascots and logos are still used to depict Natives.
Come on people, give us some respect. This is something I found more of on the campus at Haskell than anywhere else in Kansas. "respect"
Let us protest against the attrocities in our lives and our ancestor"s lives. Respect our views in doing so.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
Geekin_topekan: what you are saying is that I and the rest of the protesters aren't looking out for our future generations when we are. We want them to know the truth of what happened to their ancestors. The government may give those things but not ever nation receives even what you say you have. What you are also saying when you say "the US Government is trying to weasel out of these laws but I will use them while they are available" is saying that you are unwilling to fight to keep even what you have for your son and his children and their children. They won't even have the land you have now that you claim. Even as I type this and am in school, my family's inerrant land is under threat by the government. You think you are looking out for the future generations when you would allow the government to stop giving what they barely give now? What happens when your children and your children's children can't afford anything? Can't improve their lives? Can't even get what you are getting now? You say quit living in the past, never forget, but don't re-live, you have lost the heritage where you know the past and prevent it from happening in the future. What happened back then to us is happening now to others. America doesn't even know its history, it teaches it and preaches only parts they want to remember but it doesn't accept it all and doesn't learn. If you become a major political force, then do it for the people, not only for yourself. Even if it may seem to late you have to keep trying to improve what you have left. Drinking is a problem in the Native community yes, but not all drink and not all are drunks. The one who I quoted previously was NOT drunk. The anger is the drive that put us out in the protest that day. We will be victorious in playing their game. We are using what the US government supposedly gives its citizens; we are using their schooling, their amendments, their own language.
Crazyks: that is an extremely childish and ignorant view. I think tuschkahouma answered it perfectly.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
tempest you are using the government for what it gives it's citizens you act like you are gearing up for battle what is it you think you are going to accomplish you think the government is gonna give you back all the lands or what do you think you are going to be able to change things that drastically, your people are being given aid by the government use it to make something of yourself and make your children something instead of trying to plan some attack on the US that will lead you to no where
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
How about a highschool elective class? because there is no way they can squeeze in all the info into a regular history class.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
Tempest,
First of all,please don't put words into my mouth,it belittles both of us.
Second of all I do write the letters and I do keep lobbyists as updated as I can as well as listen to what they are hearing and saying.Today we are on the verge of passing a huge native health care initiative.Let me get with the lobby group and I'll tell you all about it.By urging the governement to uphold it's own laws I don't feel I am selling my grandkids down the road.
Thirdly,**"What happens when your children and your children's children can't afford anything? Can't improve their lives? Can't even get what you are getting now?..."**This is a little too defeatist for me.Please re-read this portion of your post.Out loud to your classmates if need be,you'll hear the futility and dependence in this way of thinking.I have no intention of teaching anyone that if they are down they must stay down.
Fourthly**"..If you become a major political force, then do it for the people, not only for yourself..." My friend,I can't change the world by myself or for myself.Only my little corner of it.I can build as positive a way of life as I am capable with whatever resources are available.Those being my brain,my health,prayer and community.I do what I think is right for today and learn what I can.I expect you to do the same.If we both walk this path,together we can achieve great things for our people.Divided we can only expect more of the same.But we have to start somewhere.
Say to yourself,"Let it begin with me"and give thanks for the other three elements.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
wow finally a post from someone of native blood that has some common sense and is taking the steps necessary to make things right for him and his own if only all natives could/would do the same thing as geekin then this board would not be necessary
kujeeper (anonymous) says…
Get over it... either incorporate into society, get a job & quit mooching off the government or go live in the Canadian woods and smoke and drink yourselves silly. you can"t change history! Oh and let us build the damn trafficway....
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
pesky mesquitos,huh?LOL!!
crazyks (anonymous) says…
Why is it childish to say that Thanksgiving is for giving thanks, to be grateful for what we have?
Maybe that wasn't the original intent of the holiday, and maybe the history that was given in the beginning wasn't accurate.
However, that is what is what the holiday is all about to me.
But what the hell is wrong about giving thanks, to whatever deity you believe in? Don't natives do that, too?
kcwarpony (anonymous) says…
"But what the hell is wrong about giving thanks, to whatever deity you believe in? Don't natives do that, too?"
Yes, but we do it every day. To make giving thanks a one day a year "holiday" seems silly.
How about "Boat People Day"?
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
kujeeper,
You CAN change history. Did you ever read 1984? Same thing here. I live in your society, I have a job and I don't "mooch" off the government. But yet you still act arrogant. When is the time going to come when Americans realize that the Indigenous people of this world deserve respect? I don't drink and I barely smoke cigarettes. How about we build that trafficway through your yard? Better yet, how about we dig up all your dead relatives in the process, go to your church and tear it down and then build it through your yard?
Leprechaunking13,
It's called punctuation and proof reading. Learn it. You are (or claim to be) out of high school, you should know this stuff.
Marion,
The only reason you left was because I asked you to come to Haskell and give an open forum. You probably couldn't think of a real reason to get yourself out of that one so you left. I know you are a freemason/illuminati bastard.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
If you people would actually READ the posts instead of skimming through them (both mine and the one I quoted) you would understand and be able to respond accurately.
geekin: The government makes laws, but them cuts them down and defines them to fit their need in order for them to uphold them. The laws may be clear as day, but the government will define them however they so choose. I never said that the future generations will stay down but I hope they will rise up in the world just as I am but they'll also need a little help, everyone does, which is why I'm going to fight for Natives to keep what little they have left. And I never said you or someone alone could change the world, or even the government, I am just saying that it could make a small difference to help.
kujeeper: you are just jumping into this for one and two you have no knowladge of me or what goes on in the Native community. All you know is sterotypes, which is proof from your comment. Three, I never said I could change history, did I ever mention that I wanted to change history? I said I wanted to change the way history was taught in schools. Fourth, there is a reason Haskell is not selling the land to let you build a stupid traffic way, which you wouldn't understand. I explain things over and over and you still don't allow it penetrate into your senses.
whyus_whythen_whynow (anonymous) says…
Why do people have to have such hateful views on other peoples beliefs. it is Haskell's right to stand up for what they believe. no one tells you to shut up and sit down when you want to stand up and say something. We want respect for what has happened to our Nations! Be considerate and take time to educate yourself on these matters before you voice your opinions on something so important to the Native American community. Lawrence is suppose to be a place for all cultures to live in but how are we suppose to feel comforable here when people like Marion say hatred things toward our cultures. we all have different beliefs and should be respected.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
I dare leprechaun to produce a post that has more than 3 grammatically correct sentences.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
W?W?W?,Don't be intimidated by this forum.Even I was shocked when I first started reading becuase I had no idea that Lawrence was so full of hatred but you know what?After a while you'll realize that most of it comes from the same sources over and over and the same,mmmm,half dozen are spewing the trash.Lawrence is still the fun loving and compassionate town it has always been.You just won't find that in this forum most of the time.It's all hot air and fun and games so don't take anything you hear in here to heart.OK?If you do you'll go mad.
Even Marion has something to say if you listen long enough.
kcwarpony (anonymous) says…
www, things are a lot better than they use to be. My father came to Haskell in the early 1950's and he said some locals were down right hostile back then. Even when I was young (late 60's) use to go into Dillons on Mass with my father and this old white guy who would hang around all the time would try to spit on me when my father wasn't looking. Never my father, just me. Guess he didn't have the b*lls.
Stick around when the subject of the South Lawrence Trafficway comes up. The lack of respect will make your head spin.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
tychoman once again this isn't english class get over it that's the only reason you are still posting haha it really is funny that you have nothing else to offer to this discussion than my grammar online stop posting if you have nothing to contribute, not that you had anything to contribute before anyways
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Leprechaun, even we at the LJWorld boards have standards of posting.
I guess I win my own dare.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
Marion: People have shown you time and again where you have said hateful and racial things yet you continously deny them, even when they are shown to your face. If anything, you have selective sight instead of selective hearing. That, and you live in a world of delusions.
Leprechaunking13: It is just polite to type in correct english. If you take the time to learn something or are forced to learn something, at least take the time to apply it so it doesn't go to waist. If anybody here hasn't contributed it's you, you have proven time and again you are a white supreamist and a racists. If you have nothing to add to this topic (even if it has gone way of course) then don't post anything.
Mahunney (anonymous) says…
Hey people - TODAY marks the day, the week, the month - We are here all together. Good luck with your lives...this month, this year. You know I would like to say something or more about this...but to those of you who truly know - may the greatfather protect you from those who do not know...but we live in THIS world today and it is just so. I attend Haskell, it's a good place for those with the right frame of mind - for those to mold their minds and make these choices we have to face TODAY. Forgive me -hygue- if your world has suffered and I showed no sorrow. But our world has suffered also and my sorrow is empty...Perhaps it would be better that Haskell relocate, perhaps we don't belong here, - you take my people and turn things around...maybe that was how you were treated, and your people. But forgive me, I do not know your story - you do not know mine. Maybe it will be better someday, that the culture of all our people including yours is dead, is that what you want? don't answer that. The hygue answer too many questions. I am sorry you feel angry, that you feel the gathering was out of anger - it was not - nor was it out of hate...Perhaps for some...but for me I see your people and I see mine, WE are all HUMAN...we are all people! Stop hating, stop looking down on others because they are not a certain way...we are all different, don't tell me "good for you" you don't know what you are saying. These angry spirits come from those before us, let it go! move on with your lives...the young people - of all races don't know any better, they will follow each other...When we do things like this, they will listen, but the others will make fun...because they learn from their families, their mothers and fathers...their brothers and sisters etc. YOU influence those in your household - no matter what. Young people on this "comment page" be good people, stop hating each other - be good citizens of your community. Old people - you should know better, be good people...you're going to die soon...well- i guess you think you can do what you want to do, but People - the angry things you do and say will anger more people and there will be no peace...some people actually want no peace...how can they be that way? alright my people of all races, be good people - I really mean it...I'm not like some of the other people who leave you with sarcastic comments....they need to be real. Wake up. -----Mah - take care all of you...see you around. peace.
Agent_X (anonymous) says…
Where is TemPEST?
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Tydoman?
crazyks (anonymous) says…
Kcwarpony: I do give thanks every day of my life for what I have. Just because it's only recognized as a national holiday once a year doesn't mean anything. I celebrate every day for the things I have in my life. I also celebrate on Thanksgiving day.
Whyus: I have been told all my life to sit down and shut up and not speak my mind. It hasn't stopped me, and I don't expect it to stop you, either. I don't think anyone should be expected to sit down and shut up. We all have our opinions, and we all have the right to state them, no matter whether anyone else agrees with them or not.
Tempest: I don't always (hardly ever, in fact) agree with the policies of the government. And I voice my opinions on that every year when I go vote. Everyone else should do the same.
But I don't think I deserve to be discriminated against because of my race. No one deserves that. I had no control over what race I was born into, and neither did anyone else.
Discrimination against any race is abhorrent. Reverse discrimination is just as bad.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Marion I was asking more into why you were mentioning me at all, because I didn't say any of what you posted.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Opening the other one might help (just trying to lighten the mood, nothing personal if there's a serious medical thing).
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Tydoman - Oh Comedy. Thanks!
Tempest (anonymous) says…
It's getting pointless, we are going in circles and I grow tired or trying to defend myself to some people who are to thick to thick they aren't racists when they aren't, think they are supirior to other races and don't understand what the protest was about when it's clearly been stated many times. All I can hope for is maybe oneday you'll open your eyes.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
You're as cold as the weather, Pilgrim. And no, that's not a compliment. I know how you take things backwards, so I just wanted to clarify.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
What's up with Marion's eye?
Or is he reading the way I used to drive?Cover one eye and keep it between the ditches!(kidding)
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
"See, minority groups stand outside white culture, and every now and then the whites feel they ought to be guilty about something. So they pick a minority group, and they let them talk. Minority groups have been waiting twenty years to say, "Hey, this is what you did to us, and we'd like the damage repaired." The attitude of white society is, "all we have to do is say we did it and were sorry and then go on." Minority groups never catch on that that's all that's going to happen. So you get a Dennis Banks standing up there saying, "we demand reparations," and all that, and the point he doesn't realize is this is a ritual drama that white society goes through every twenty years. It has nothing to do with reality. They're never going to change anything. Five years later there's an FBI manhunt on for Dennis Banks all over the country. South Dakota is ready to kill him. Somehow you've got to bring a realization to the Indian community, particularly the intellectuals in the Indian community, the realization that, "hey, these are people who destroyed two or three continents. They say they're sorry and they think that's all there is to it." And if you still say, "O.K., we should have reparations," they're gonna turn around and kill you. I mean you've got to recognize that to begin with."-Vine Deloria Jr.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
"I think that history is the most important. I think you've got to get new interpretations of oral history. See, Indians are really exotic quantities set off there. You've got world history that starts in Sumeria or Egypt or wherever, and it's got kind of an arrow direction, see, and it's heading a certain way. All of a sudden in 1492, zap, here are the Indians. And whites can't understand what this group is, and so what I think you've got to do is really throw in with extremely heretical thinkers and break up the evolutionary interpretation of human experience. One of the ideas I'm currently working on is the whole intellectual climate of Western culture over the last hundred years, which is the acceptance of the theory of evolution and its implications in social science. You can go through a lot of Supreme Court cases and discover that they justify the confiscation of Indian lands on the basis that Indians are hunters and you want to give their land to white farmers. This is the order of nature, and, therefore, you don't have to argue legal rights. You just say, "Well, the farmer is destined to take over from the hunter, and since he is going to do it anyway, we'd just as well give it to him now." As long as people are trained in evolutionary thinking they are going to look at Indians as a previous state of existence, and they're going to look at their own culture as if it were superior. See, you're always going to get the BIA educational mentality, that we've got to teach these people to speak English, because if they speak English then they are partially civilized. So what you've got to do is use the ecological movement and new theories of history to break that mind set."
"If you look very closely at white expectations, just take the Southwest as an example, they want all Indians trained in Western education capable of working for Merrill Lynch and doing everything that whites do, at the same time they want them down at the Santa Fe station selling pottery and painting. And you try to point out that schizophrenia and they can't recognize it. They can't see that at all. The minute you try to go do one thing, they say you're losing your culture, the minute you try to build up the culture, they say "Well you're superstitious, you're looking at the past, you can't save that, you ought to go get an education." So Indians ought to recognize that the schizophrenia is in the white men and not in themselves."
-Vine Deloria, Jr.
Tempest (anonymous) says…
Marion: You do NOT study history "rationally" and/or "reasonably." You should NOT catagorize yourself in either of these for you are actually a VERY racist person. As I said, there have been examples of your racism throughout these posts, I've read them and responded to them in order to hopefully show you, to make you look in a mirrior and realize who and what you are. You a racists 55 year old who acts like a child when he has nothing else to say. Seriously, refering to me as a pacient? I thought that went out in my middle school years. Do not compair me to the Holocaust deniers, those people are ashamed of what they did, I have nothing to be ashamed of. I am proud of my ancestory and culture. I am not racists against whites but do not condone their actions, there is a difference. You have no right to judge me, you don't even know me. Your immaturaty is shown in your posts. Sad to say, I'm probably even more mature than you are.
Lastly, i do not censor history!!!! If anybody does, it's the government because they dont' want to change their history books saying that another person from the Europe area or w/e visited America long before Columbus stumbled upon it. They also don't want to acknowlagde the fact that tribes had been trading with Vickings and others long before the person before Columbus found this land. How is is possible that I am lying about history when over 90% of American citizens are ignorant of what really happened? Seriously? Do you even know what happened to tribes? You spout history like your an expert yet it only seems to be the one side the do teach in school. Learn all sides of the history of before you become so arrogant. You may be old, but you are not an elder. Elders are ones with knowladge, someone to look up to, respect and learn from. If anything, you are a child still learning.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Wow samurai...Thanks for lumping all caucasians as "white culture"....i guess we all look the same to you....This is the double standard that I despise...if somebody said"all haskell students do is smoke dope and get kicked out of the harbor lights for being drunk idiots"...well I guess that would be ok...you set the standard here, so i'll run with it......i guess i could say things like"all the sioux nations hate the ponca"...Or "all Hopi chicks are fat"....hmmm, what else can we generalize and stereotype....Oh ya, "the backfeet were uncle toms".
must be nice to have the carte blanche to be a racist and have the people you despise say" He is so noble, standing up to us like that"....Seriously man, your comments p1ss me the f*ck off.
Katara (anonymous) says…
Proof that Marion does not have racist tendencies (rolls eyes)
http://www.rivercitytalk.com/RCT/show...
Some not safe for work language is on this website.
As a side note, this is the same website that Marion links to to show you pictures of his doggies (handsome fellows that they are - the dogs, not marion).
lizzieborden (anonymous) says…
Tsk,Tsk that means nothing as it is not from this thread or any other LJW thread. Case in point the link you provide discusses music and pride much like Native flutes and drums. Sadly your example only proves you grasp at straws.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
rednek,
Say what you want about Haskell students and say what you want about me. Call me a racist if you will, it wouldn't be the first or the last time. So I'm a racist because Amerikkka refused to own up to its responsibilities and keep the promises that were made. I'm the racist because I say something that is true about society today and how most people, like you, shirk the common decency to have respect for other diverse cultures and people. Oh I forget, all KU students are quiet little christian saints that sit in the library on friday nights and wouldn't be caught dead drinking downtown, right? KU students NEVER go to Harbour Lights, they never smoke dope, aren't ever fat and never ever hate on other ethnic groups, right? But if you knew how to read you would see that I was quoting the late Vine Deloria, Jr. You can call me a racist all day and I'm not gonna care because I'm not. I have plenty of white, black, asian, polynesian and all kinds of friends who would agree with the above statements. You on the other hand get mad when people say it. Maybe that's because you are a racist. Here's another one for you...
"Racism is a white problem and white people need to work with each other to confront it. The effort must begin with an understanding of the privilege that comes with being white. . .white is normative, average, ideal, and therefore preferred."
- Nancy Schreck, OSF, "If your Racism is unconscious you are a problem:
Reflections of a Recovering Racist", LCWR Resolutions to Action
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Wow.
Quality Racism, Marian.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
Dang Marion,just googled BRVO.Good luck with that.
As a diabetic I try to stay on top of these things as I can.Peace.
My first post still stands though!bleahh!!!hahahahaha!!!
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Bob, the board's stagnating. Jokes, quick!
mrhanky (anonymous) says…
Stan: "We want to commit our friend, Tychoman, please."
Nurse: "Reason?"
Kyle:"He is a clinically depressed fecal-feliac on prozac. "
( Just funnin you man. Gotta love South Park)
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
A horse walks into a bar, bartender says "Why the long face?"
Mr. Hanky, South Park is glorious, I take it as a compliment.
Takes one to know one :P
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
samurai....How many times must I explain that i admit i come from a savage barbaric people who bent your people over a sawhorse and put it in dry?I find your outrage adorable....So go ahead and tell me how your people used to live in the magic forest and crapped rainbow sherbert...i guess along with the buffalo we wiped out the unicorns to.
if we are ever at the same bar please talk to me the way you write at people.....and when idiots like you call me a racist that just means to me that you ran out of arguements......you say i do not respect your culture....i say i leave your culture alone, when I come up and kick you in the ass when your tripping on peyote, then you can whine about me stepping on your culture....So you have friends that are not indians...Big deal....glad to know you are keeping score
Have i posted anything against the protest?no....Here, I'll be a good little guilt ridden whitey that you have come to expect from lawrence...."give back the wetlands!!!!free peltier!!!!no native mascots!!!go team! There does that sooth your more noble than me spirit?
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
Wow, what a bad ass you are. Do you know that I'm a female? Do you know that I will call the cops on you? It's not my fault that your self proclaimed native family never taught you about respect. Ran out of arguements, wow, that's the best you could do without adressing anything I've said eh? Why do you care what an idiot, peyote tripper like me thinks? Seek therapy.
Katara (anonymous) says…
@ Tychoman & OMB
Knock knock!
Who's there?
Banana.
Banana who?
Knock knock!
Who's there?
Banana.
Banana who?
Knock knock!
Who's there?
Banana.
Banana, who?
Knock knock!
Who's there?
Banana.
Banana who?
Knock knock?
Who's there?
Orange.
Orange who?
Orange you glad I didn't say banana?
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
It's true that "natives" were trading with other Europeans and Vikings before columbus landed, but again I must state that Europeans were here long before any "natives" had made it across the bering strait.
Katara (anonymous) says…
@ Marion
While I understand your issue on being proud of your heritage, "white power" is not associated with just being proud of your heritage and is all about subjecting other ethnicities to the "superiority" of the caucasian. There really is nothing empowering so to speak for causcasians in white power. Caucasians already hold a big chunk of the power.
If you want to express your pride in your Northern European heritage, you certainly can do so without being accused of being racist. For example, being proud of having Irish heritage or Polish heritage.
There are festivals and various other celebrations around the nation that do just that and they are not considered racist.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Priceless, Moira.
Katara, a panda walks into a bar, orders a sandwich from the bewildered bartender. He eats the sandwich patiently, then promptly pulls out a gun and pops a cap in the dude sitting next to him and walks out the door like nothing happened. The man sitting on the panda's other side panics and asks the bartender just what the hell happened. The bartender says "Well, it was a panda bear, look it up in the dictionary." So that night, the man looks up panda in the dictionary and finds the following: Panda, noun, eats shoots and leaves.
Leprechaun, are you saying that Europeans have been on and around this continent for the last 20,000-30,000 years?
Katara (anonymous) says…
I am too curious about Lep's claim. Sources, please.
Tychoman, a duck walks into a drug store looking for some chapstick. The clerk gets it for him and asks how he want to pay for it. The duck replies, "Just put it on my bill".
Wokka Wokka Wokka.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
There have been, among other things, arrowheads found along the Atlantic coast of the U.S. that anthropologists, paleontologists and archeaologists have proved that they came from Celitc peoples that lived on the Atlantic coasts of northern Europe. They have been dated back between 15000 and 20000 years. Plus Tychoman if you look at human migration patterns pieced together by scientist that the Americas have only been heavily populated about 12000 years. So that puts 3000 years difference between those peoples who crossed the atlantic and the "natives", give or take a couple thousand.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Caution- This is a joke that may offend blondes- if you're blond and touchy about it, spare yourself. If it offends a blonde, I apologize in advance.
(whew- those PC disclaimers wear me out)
____________________________________________
I needed a few days off work, but I knew the Boss would not allow me to take a leave. I thought that maybe if I acted "CRAZY" then he would tell me to take a few days off.
So I hung upside down on the ceiling and made funny noises. My co-worker (who's blonde) (there's that word) asked me what I was doing. I told her that I was pretending to be a light bulb so that the Boss would think I was "CRAZY" and give me a few days off.
A few minutes later the Boss came into the office and asked "What are you doing? I told him I was a light bulb.
He said "You are clearly stressed out. Go home and recuperate for a couple of days".
I jumped down and walked out of the office. When my co-worker (the blonde) followed me, the Boss asked her "...And where do you think you're going?"
She said,"I'm going home too. I can't work in the DARK!!
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Leprechaun, no. I really don't think they did. Sources. Could it be that arrowheads are *gasp* common?
Beautiful, ljreader.
I wonder if Helen Keller jokes would be out of line....because I've got loads :)
Katara (anonymous) says…
Lep, please. Sources would be nice.
Actually (and I'm working on finding the source on this) there is a settlement in Peru, I believe that has been dated @ approximately 17,000 years.
Katara (anonymous) says…
And actually there is a skull in Brazil that was found in 1975 & was studied in 1999-ish that is dated @ 11,500 years old. The features of the skull are very characteristic of Australian aborigines so it is just as likely that the 1st people of the Americas were neither Native Americans or Europeans.
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewssto...
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Thanks, Tychoman- I DIG Helen Keller Jokes- It's not like blind people are going to see them. God, Did I say that?
I've got one-
Q-Why are Helen Keller's socks yellow?
A- Her dog is blind, too.
Bring em on, dude
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
yeah gee tychoman arrowheads that predate any native artifact are pretty common, especially since they were found on the atlantic coast 3000 miles away from where these people crossed the bering strait thousands of years before it happened
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Here's a random one while your getting your Helen jokes posted.
A burglar broke into a house one night. He shined his flashlight around, looking for valuables, and when he picked up a CD player to place in his sack, a strange, disembodied voice echoed from the dark saying,
"Jesus is watching you."
He nearly jumped out of his skin, clicked his flashlight off, and froze.
When he heard nothing more after a bit, he shook his head, promised himself a vacation after the next big score.
Then he clicked the light on and began searching for more valuables.
Just as he pulled the stereo out so he could disconnect the wires, clear as a bell he heard, "Jesus is watching you."
Freaked out, he shined his light around frantically, looking for the source of the voice. Finally, in the corner of the room, his flashlight beam came to rest on a parrot. "Did you say that?" he hissed at the
parrot.
"Yep," the parrot confessed, and then squawked, "I'm just trying to warn you."
The burglar relaxed. "Warn me, huh? Who in the world are you?"
"Moses," replied the bird.
"Moses?" the burglar laughed. "What kind of people would name a bird Moses?"
"The same kind of people that would name a Rottweiler Jesus."
Katara (anonymous) says…
Monte Verde is the name of the settlement in Peru. And there are 2 theories on migration patterns. 1. Land bridge through Alaska & 2. migration from South America on up the coastline and then spread through N. America.
If you are referring to Kenniwick Man, the thought is now that he is not caucasian but rather related to the Ainu.
Personally I think he looks more like Jean Luc Picard.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Did you know that Helen Keller lived in a treehouse?
--Neither did she.
How did HK's parents torture her?
--They rearranged the furniture.
"I'm not bad, Mr. Valiant. I'm just drawn that way."--story of my life.
Leprechaun if you were entirely up to date, you'd know that the Bering Land Bridge isn't the only way that peoples reached North --and South America.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
no it's not kenniwick man, the one you are thinking about in south america is actually believed to be aboriginees who have made cave drawings of giant armadillos which have been extinct since before the last ice age. it's believed that those people were killed by pre-mongol SW asians that entered through the phillipines, but this is South America not North America which is what I was referring to. but it's NOT kenniwik man
Katara (anonymous) says…
Lep, if you are going to be sarcastic, I'll just assume you have no credible sources for your assertion that they Celts were here earlier.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
BOOM goes the dynamite!
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Good ones, Ty
success:
At age 4 success is . . not peeing in your pants.
At age 12 success is . having friends.
At age 16 success is . . . having a drivers license.
At age 35 success is . having money.
At age 50 success is . . . having money.
At age 70 success is . . . having a drivers license.
At age 75 success is . having friends.
At age 80 success is . not peeing in your pants.
Katara (anonymous) says…
Lep, please see my post regarding 2 different theories on migration in the Americas. Monte Verde is also not the one with drawings of ancient armadillos and I was wrong about where it was located. It is in Chile, not Peru.
Anywho. Got to go. If you come with the articles, I would love to read them.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
At least two distinct groups of early humans colonized the Americas, a new study says, reviving the debate about who the first Americans were and when they arrived.
Anthropologists Walter Neves and Mark Hubbe studied 81 skulls of early humans from South America and found them to be different from both modern and ancient Native Americans.
The 7,500- to 11,000-year-old remains suggest that the oldest settlers of the Americas came from different genetic stock than more recent Native Americans.
Modern Native Americans share traits with Mongoloid peoples of Mongolia, China, and Siberia, the researchers say.
But Neves and Hubbe found that dozens of skulls from Brazil appear much more similar to modern Australians, Melanesians, and Sub-Saharan Africans.
The scientists examined 81 skulls unearthed over many decades in Brazil's Lagoa Santa region. They represent the largest collection of early American remains, many of which had to be tracked down in European museums.
These "paleoamerican" or "paleoindian" skulls feature projecting lower jaws, broad noses, and broad eye sockets, the researchers report. These traits are unlike those of modern Native Americans.
This strongly suggests that those early Americans were in fact a distinct group, Neves says.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne...
this is for the peoples in southamerica you seem to know oh so much about katara
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Samurai.....So talk to some of my country girl friends the way you write.....Let's get some things straight.....If we were the evil people you portray us as....Why did'nt we just finish the job? And respect is earned sweetcheeks....i would of showed you courtesy,but you came raging into this post with your cute little idealistic rage....face it, you want an enemy to fight...understandable.....And like i have said to you before....I would bet large bills that you are a bigger tool of the mainstream then i ever have or ever will be......believe what ever you like....protest all you want....but until you learn to balance what you believe should be and what is, you'll allways sound like a zealot.....have fun brainwashing yourself.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
I like the way you think rednek
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
hahaha right on marlboro
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
Uh oh!PW's back!!
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
What disgusting posts, Marlboro.
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
rednek,
So you are gonna get some ho to fight me to prove you aren't racist? Is that right?
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Goodness. Just when I thought this was another piss'n match... real and actual Comedy. Quality jokes, folks. Count me entertained.
And then Marlboro Man aka Marian's lackey posted. Then it was fantastic Comedy. Ignorance Rules!!!
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Let's get back to the roots, Bob:
What's the difference between a violin and a trampoline?
*********************************************
You take off your shoes to jump on the trampoline.
Katara (anonymous) says…
Kids are all tucked in now. The silence is wonderful.
@ Lep
Your article is interesting & really doesn't disprove what I said about 2 separate migrations to the Americas. In fact, it pretty much supports what I was talking about, although I will amend it to multiple migrations.
As an interesting side note, the Olmec statues also have been listed as proof that non-Asian populations have been to the Americas and perhaps it was the ancestors of what we consider the Australian & New Zealand aborigines.
What I was wanting was the sources you had to back up that the Celts or Europeans if you prefer, were here prior to any migration across the Bering Strait. I would sincerely like to read the info if it is credible.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
This will probably get axed. Read em while ya got em.
____________________________
A man and his wife were working in their garden one
day and the man looks over at his wife and says, "Your butt is getting really big, I mean really big. I bet your butt is bigger than the barbecue grill."
With that he proceeded to get a measuring tape and measure the grill and then went over to where his wife was working and measured his wife's bottom. "Yes, I was right, your butt is two inches wider than the barbecue grill!!!" The woman chose to ignore her husband.
Later that night in bed, the husband is feeling frisky.
He makes some advances towards his wife who completely brushes him off. "What's wrong?" he asks.
She answers, "Do you really think I'm going to fire up this big-@$$ grill for one little weenie?"
Katara (anonymous) says…
Thank you for the interesting articles on the Topper site, Marion but it still does not prove Lep's assertion that the Celts were here way before anyone else.
I also believe (and I will check this out. I maybe thinking of the other sites found) that there have been quite a few problems with the carbon-dating on the Topper site.
Finding artifacts, while it may tell us about the technology of the people who inhabited the site, does not tell who the people were genetically.
Katara (anonymous) says…
And I will add all the argument over this or that site predating clovis era does not excuse the mistreatment of any of the people considered Native American today or in the past.
Katara (anonymous) says…
From your posts, Marion, you don't wear those clinical glasses very often, so I doubt you do on this.
I'm sure you will find info on possible influence and the presence of Celts in North America but I doubt you will find any credible evidence that they predated any Native American populations there. I seriously doubt Lep is referring to the Hallstatt or La Tene cultures showing evidence of being in North America.
There is evidence that Vikings were in North America that predates Columbus's "discovery" but it does not predate Native American populations nor does it prove that Europeans were in North America prior to any Native American populations.
If you do find the info that supports Lep's claim, I definitely would be interested in reading it.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Samurai....No , I just would like to see if you have the guts to talk to another woman face to face in the same manner that you write.....And let me get this straight.....You constantly b!tch and moan about how evil the European settlers(or invaders, your choice) were....in other forums you stated that we were std ridden incestuous, and have no moral fibre....and in the same comment went on to say your culture(Nice lumping of all the nations.....you like to pick and choose with that)that your ancestors had none of these, or quite frankly any faults whatsoever....I on the other hand, if you will go through old posts, have been very open about acknowledging the many flaws of the europeans at the time.....And When I call on people like you to look at your people and admit that they to were flawed creatures....that you are the one that believes in racial superiority.....You have the stones to call me racist!
What you deem as "racist" (remember this honey..If you use that magic word too much it will lose it's power) is actually bafflement at encountering someone who refuses to have guilt over something that they absolutely no power to change,namely the way I ended up being born here.
yourworstnightmare (anonymous) says…
Columbus was a Johnny-come-lately. It is established archaeological fact that Viking peoples of modern Norway had regular contact with North America, established colonies, and cut timber for their settlements on Greenland, all around 900 ad, well before Cristobal Colon.
It is true that their influence did not remain and they retreated. The mini ice age forced the Vikings to retract, as did conflicts with the numerous natives already occupying the land. The Vikings did not have the benefit of smallpox to wipe out 95% of the native population as did the Spaniards.
Timing is everything.
Katara (anonymous) says…
@ Marion,
I am not sure why you bring up Africa and claiming that I misquote you because I have done neither. Your past posts (on many topics) indicate that you are not an objective person. I would need only to direct attention to your posts in any thread that discusses abortion. And, please, let us not get into that topic (can of worms) since I am just stating this is an example of your inability to be objective or being able to wear your "clinical glasses".
I certainly don't need a "lecture" from you on the state of affairs in Africa. One could interpret your post as patronising. Your post neither proves or disproves whether you are indeed racist or not although many white supremacists make the same argument as you regarding technology and certain cultures and try to portray it as "historical" perspective.
I honestly believe you are racist but to be overt about it offends your sensibilities. It would not be a topic of polite conversation but then you probably don't mind making a few snide remarks about non-caucasians when none are around.
As for holding you to the proof about Celtic cultures being here prior to Native American posts, Lep is the one responsible for proving that as he made the assertion. I merely said if you happen to find something on it, that I would like to read it.
You mention that there is a body of evidence out there that Europeans and Africans may have come to NA 15-20K years ago. There is evidence that people have been in NA that long ago (Topper site & Cactus Hill for example) but that is not evidence that Europeans/or Africans are the ones who were here. All the items found at those sites are artifacts. There is nothing to show what type of people these were (no skulls or other bones, teeth, etc).
The African evidence has already been discussed and that is in SA not NA. The info on Luiza discusses that.
As for the Vikings, the only evidence so far is L'Anse aux Meadows dated approximately 10th century. This is in Newfoundland (Canada) and while interesting, is still not related to the mistreatment of Native Americans from the time Columbus "discovered" America on through present time.
Unless you are suggesting we celebrate Leif Ericksson Day a la Spongebob instead of Columbus Day?
yourworstnightmare (anonymous) says…
"Unless you are suggesting we celebrate Leif Ericksson Day a la Spongebob instead of Columbus Day?"
Sounds good to me. It would be just as meaningful. Why we have a holiday celebrating Columbus is a mystery to me. I have variously heard that the holiday is a catholic conspiracy or a klan conspiracy.
About the mistreatment of native americans: yes, they were mistreated and subject to genocide. This is a terrible aspect of American history. Basically, they lost, and America was not a gracious winner. More important than protesting Columbus Day is addressing modern problems faced by native americans such as poverty, discrimination, opportunity, and education.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
I'd rather celebrate Viking Day or Erik the Red Day (not sure if he came over, too, just one Viking I can name off the top of my head) than Christopher Columbus, celebrating the most influential accident in human history.
If the Vikings did meet with Native Americans, they probably would have treated them better.
Ljreader I've got one that certainly will get axed:
Why was the blonde's bellybutton all bruised?
Her boyfriend's a blonde, too! BAgagagaga.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
:-*, Moira.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Jeez Marion, lighten up! Don't hold it against me because I've never heard of skraelings of Lanse aux Meadows.
I'm not an expert on everything like you are.
roger_o_thornhill (anonymous) says…
365 posts. Now 366. Think this horse has been beaten to dust?
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
No tychoman but you do have to comment on it like you know everything. Funny how you are only here to make negative comments and tell jokes.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Thanks Moira.
Leprechaun, all you've done is make negative comments. At least I tell jokes to lighten the mood. If you actually read what I've posted, you'd notice that not everything is negative comments. You're just mad because your shift key is broken 80% of the time and your period key is a little iffy. No need to apoloogise, though. God forbid you admit when you're wrong.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
Sorry Katara I shouldnt have said Celtic. However the Arrowheads found in Virginia can only be found elsewhere, on the coast of France. The people inhabiting that during the final ice age were Celts and Goths.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
No Tychoman you make comments that show how little you know about what everyone is talking about, and then make jokes to change the subject because you have nothing to add.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
solutreans! i couldn't think of the name of the group I was talking about, but there it is. Here's some interesting reading for you katara
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/...
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Holy crap. Bitter, much, leprechaun?
Oh by the way, congratulations on using proper grammar and English. All of us that have graduated high school here are proud of you.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
yeah unlike you I'm familiar with writing to people online where grammatical errors aren't looked at like in english class, I know how to write just because I'm lazy with my english on this board doesn't discount my posts especially since I'm actually contributing to the discussion
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
here's another katara
http://www.centerfirstamericans.com/m...
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
You should see the way I type on instant messenger. Message boards are different.
Your racism discounts your earlier posts, and copying and pasting links is hardly contributing to the discussion. At least you're posting your sources this time.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
Dude, you have no reason to even post anything on here anymore. You have not made any contribution on here that has anything to do with this topic. You are only on here to post jokes, and question everyone elses posts, yet you have no knowledge on anything with the subject. Yes I made some racial slurs DAYS ago. This in no way discounts any of my posts because I stand behind everything i have said and proved it to be correct by posting links to what I was saying. You have been proved wrong on anything beneficial you have tried to provide this board so why don't you do everyone a favor and stop posting.
You have only made yourself look dumb and ignorant for almost a week now.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
oh and tychoman having and etic point of view is not racist most normal people do have an etic perception of the world
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Etic? Leprechaun, I have plenty to post on this subject. "Yes I made some racial slurs days ago...I stand behind everything I have said." That means nothing to you? My God you're such an ass.
I disagree with you. I haven't been proved wrong on anything beneficial I've had to say, what are you talking about? The only thing that has been proven on this board is that it's hard to prove who was here first. The jokes weren't for YOUR benefit, they were for Moira and ljreader.
Do everyone else here a favor and stop posting, you've only made yourself look dumb and ignorant for almost a week now. You're new here and have no right to lecture me on what I post.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
Yes ETIC, do you know what the word means? It's an anthropological term. This board should be for posting on the subject, which is just about all I've done except defend myself to idiots, like tychoman and now Moira, who for the most part don't know what they are talking about. If all you want to do is trade jokes maybe you should use something called EMAIL or instant messaging! i know this is a tough concept but post boards should be to post on the article not post jokes. so if you have something beneficial to post do it otherwise shut the hell up.
Katara (anonymous) says…
@ Marion
Evidence of L'Anse aux Meadows being connected to the Vikings battling the Skraelings is sketchy at best. Munn studied Icelandic manuscripts which are about 1 family of Norsemen, Thorvald, Erik & Leif. The theory is that the "Vinland" settlement that Leif "discovered" & settled is L'Anse aux Meadows. However, that has never been proven. All reference to the Skraelings being the Native Americans come from those manuscripts and some other sagas (such as Freydis's saga). These stories are not evidence. In fact, according to your Canadian history website, Eirik's Saga is disputed as it seems to be missing info that is in other sagas such as teh Greenland Saga.
While it is considered a Viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows, there is nothing to connect it to Leif Ericksson or that the Skraelings were Native Americans. All your articles make a big assumption that the manuscripts that refer to Vinland are referring to the settlement in Newfoundland (L'Anse aux Meadows). There have been no other Viking settlements found in North America other than L'Anse aux Meadows.
@ Lep
I am familiar with the website http://www.centerfirstamericans.com/.
The BBC article is interesting and gives food for thought.
I imagine more DNA evidence and tracking will help us find out.
However, to claim that Europeans were here first using stone-age standards and arguments about the migration patterns of human in NA is missing the point of the article and of those who are Native American. If you really want to argue about origins then the Europeans were originally Africans so we can claim that Africans (acoording to that standard) were the original inhabitants of NA because they were the first recognized hominids. See how silly that sounds?
Also assuming that evidence proves without many doubts that people from the Solutrean cultures colonized America, are you suggesting then that Native Americans are European in heritage?
So that would make the mistreatment of them from other European cultures when Columbus "discovered" America acceptable?
Or their outrage of Columbus' and subsequent American mistreatment any less?
While this has been a very interesting and educational discussion on a topic I enjoy very much, you miss the point as to why Native Americans are upset about the celebration of Columbus Day.
I now propose we now celebrate Solutrean Day instead of Columbus Day. Although I think Leif Eiricksson Day a la Spongebob could be more fun. How can anyone have any resentment or anger if everyone is wearing a stereotypical Norseman's helmut with horns?
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
if you look at recent genetics testing and the work they have done with haplogroups then you'll see that most native americans have the same haplogroup as europeans. also if you read more articles and look up solutreans they think that eskimos came from these people mixing with the siberians coming across the bering strait and that these peoples way of life is probably how they survived the voyage across the icy atlantic(at that time anyway) which makes a lot of sense, plus they think that the clovis culture came from the solutreans as well
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
either way any evidence the solutreans left here outdates the clovis culture by a good 3 or 4 thousand years
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
well you also have to understand that there was a war for this country when europeans started to immigrate here whether the natives realized it or not and they lost, everywhere in the world this has happened in some way and the loser is/was always subject to how the winner wants things to be
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
but Im down for solutrean day we can all make spear points and go hunt seals and fish
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Actually lep, if you want to get technical about this, this board isn't about anthropology. It's about relations between Columbus and the treatment of Native Americans. The board's gone on a tangent away from its original intent. I suggest you get back on task.
So I'm an idiot, huh? You're one to talk. Do us a favor, and don't.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
moira you are correct thank you for pointing that out to me Etic isn't the word I was wanting to use Ethnocentric is the one I wanted sorry going back to freshman year cultural anthropolgy. to answer your question scientist are pretty sure that in South America Australians were there first with settlements in caves and cave drawings going back almost 50000 years and are thought to be the original aboriginees I sent a link to a website earlier for katara on this subject
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
True, but if these certain races handled the way their people came across to the public and didnt' advance stereotypes already established this would be a lesser problem. I agree to some extent that how the government treated these people was poor, but the government has atleast tried to make reparations and still are. This article was about how the haskell students protested what columbus did and the treatment of their people from then on and how they deserve their lands back, but the protest should have been about correcting the flaws in the system now, not b*tch and moan about things from the past and what they deserve from our forefathers through us, which is how I personally percieved it
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
You perceived it wrong. The whole point of the protest was to correct flaws in the system.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne...
no moira check this one out
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
and you honestly believe that this is the place to protest for that? In the most liberal place in Kansas? You are preaching to the people who are the most open minded in this state.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
i can agree with that and support that, thank you for putting it in a different light, moira I like the discussions you bring to the table
Katara (anonymous) says…
@ Lep
Please don't try to imply that you were the one to supply me with info on the South American - Australian Aborigine link.
May I remind you of this post...
Posted by Katara (anonymous) on October 13, 2006 at 6:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And actually there is a skull in Brazil that was found in 1975 & was studied in 1999-ish that is dated @ 11,500 years old. The features of the skull are very characteristic of Australian aborigines so it is just as likely that the 1st people of the Americas were neither Native Americans or Europeans.
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory....
The link for that info was provided roughly an 1 hour prior to yours and your snide comment to me in your post.
Some would perceive that as being dishonest.
And, no, scientists are not "pretty sure" that there is a link. There is a theory out on it, and some of what I consider some pretty good evidence for it, but it is not a commonly accepted theory in the human migration area of paleoanthropology.
@ Moira
It is the National Geographic link that Lep provided. Although you can check out the one I provided earlier ... http://www.planetark.com/dailynewssto...
It makes a specific reference to "Luiza" which is one of the skulls that was studied. The article mentions Walter Neves which is one of the archeaologists Lep mentions.
I don't think ethnocentric can be used to describe all the comments on this forum although it would definitely describe Marion's comments and perhaps that is the word that is more appropriate in describing him. There are some definitely racist comments appearing here.
Etic is an actual term used in cultural anthropology. I guess you remembered a little more than you thought from your introductory class on anthropology your freshman year. There is a difference between emic & etic descriptions in conducting an ethnology. This would have been at least on a chapter test, if not a midterm.
If anyone is interested... http://faculty.ircc.edu/faculty/jlett...
Katara (anonymous) says…
and Moira proves to be the wisest one of us all (absolutely no sarcasm intended).
Katara (anonymous) says…
I am just too slow on the posts today. I have them composed & get distracted & come back to actually send them. Apologies, Lep & Moira.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
your right katara I simply provided more information for you a widely accepted theory is what I would consider pretty sure but again that's just me, the ethnocentric is how I percieve most people look at there culture whether they want to admit it or not it just may not be to the extreme of me or marion
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
so katara what is your theory on what happened to those people like luiza did the asian populus kill them off or assimilate them
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
sorry moira did i strike a nerve
Katara (anonymous) says…
Neither. I think they were breed out. Either the dominant culture, so to speak, had way more children that reached adulthood than the other or the two eventually intermingled so much that charateristics of both are found in later population. I don't consider this to be assimilation through culture some would.
@ Moira
I know I don't even come close to reaching extensive on this but I know that I am interested in the topic. It is absolutely fascinating to me. There are so many ways that we could have come about here.
Katara (anonymous) says…
@ Moira
Really? I associate it now with science fiction stuff like the Borg.
Katara (anonymous) says…
Plus, how would they kill the Asian populus off if they were there before them? Wouldn't be the other way around?
http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news14...
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
you read it backwards katara that's what I said did they assimilate with the asian populus that showed up after them or do were they killed off by the asians. I don't know I think they had to have been killed off or just died out because I don't see any aboriganal features in amazonian peoples, they look much more mongoloid
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
according to that site the solutreans still outdate them and isn't that the same article you posted earlier a couple times
Katara (anonymous) says…
Nope, I hadn't posted that one. I just found it a little while ago. Plus it has a picture! I think you are mistaken that is a widely accepted theory though.
The Luiza stuff is dated 1999 which is before the Solutrean info really came out. I am open to the idea of the Solutrean's being among the first inhabitants.
It just had nothing to do with Native American outrage at celebrating Columbus Day.
You're right, I was reading it backwards. I don't think they were killed off by the asian populations that appeared. People tend to make love more than making war in my opinion.
Physical features are not always expressed. It doesn't mean that there is not some ancestory there. I would have to take a look to see what DNA info has been published to see what has been done there.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
I could have sworn that article said the same exact thing as another one you posted from a different link but you're right it does have a picture looks very aboriginee
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
are you an anthropologist katara?
Katara (anonymous) says…
No. I have a degree in Anthropology but the arrival of children put Grad school on hold. I wish I was one of those people who have the ability to do it all. I will never be that organized or efficient. Plus, I like having the time to enjoy my family & my job. Once my children are grown and I'm retired, I'll go back and get a chance to really devote myself to my studies. As for now, I just try to keep up as much as I can on areas of interest that I have.
philipestigoy (anonymous) says…
This is a touch long, I warn you.
This is simply in response to the posts that the Native Americans need to simply "get over it".
It is very difficult to believe that the U.S. government does not hold to some of the racist philosophies of the past when we see Andrew Jackson honored on the U.S. currency today.
In case you wonder why Andrew Jackson is so hated in Indian country, it's because he pushed through the Indian Relocation Act(against a direct Supreme Court order no less), which led to the Trail of Tears for the Cherokee and the virtual eradication of the Seminoles when they refused to go along with it.
There are certainly other indications of racism still in the U.S. as well. The fact that the professional football team in Washington uses a racial slur as it's mascot should tell you something. I can understand the use of Indians, Chiefs, Braves, and the like to an extent(Then again, you don't hear about a team called Africans, Jews, or Hispanics). However, you would never hear those ethnicities spoken of as a slur, when it is apparently ok to do so for Indians.
How do you "get over" racism when you hear racial slurs about your people every week?
Oh, and to those who say that natives are given everything by the government, you are misinformed. There are a few things that the U.S. government is required to do under international treaties, granted, the U.S. has broken more of them than it has kept, but at least the U.S. is honoring some of them.
It is not a benevolent government helping the poor Indians to get educated. It is the U.S. honoring it's own laws and providing some of what the international treaties require the U.S. to provide.
RomanNose (anonymous) says…
I can't believe some of the remarks that have been made in here. To know absolutely nothing about anything remotely "Native American" and then to stand tall here boasting a story as if it were told by your father from his father whose father lived within a nightmare, is ignorant.
Plains Indians recorded history by means of a "winter count," an inwardly spiraling pictograph in which each image stood for the year's most important event. A Yanktonai Sioux winter count spans the years 1825 to 1911, during which the tribe moved from tepees to reservation log cabins at Devil's Lake, North Dakota. A circle with X's records a meteor shower of November 1833, while the spotted figures fifth and sixth to its left represent smallpox outbreaks in 1837 and 1838.
Visiting the scene of the Wounded Knee Massacre, the Oglala Sioux holy man Black Elk found dead and wounded women and children scattered all along the a dry gulch where they had sought cover. Some lay in heaps where they had huddled together. An infant was trying to suck milk from its dead mother's breast. Eighteen of the troopers who took part in the killings were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.
An eyewitness who saw the aftermath of the Sand Creek Massacre testified, "worse mutilated than any I ever saw before, the women all cut to pieces...children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors." Of the 123 dead, nearly 100 were women and children. The commision's final report concludes that "the Indian problem can never be remedied until the Indian race is civilized or shall entirely disappear."
It's important to know that the word Indian does not derive from Columbus mistakenly believing he had reached "India." India was not even called by that name in 1492; it was known as Hindustan. More likely, the word Indian comes from Columbus' description of the people he found here. He was an Italian, and did not speak or write very good Spanish, so in his written accounts he called the Indians, "Una gente in Dios." A people in God. In God. In Dios. Indians.
HelenBrown (anonymous) says…
http://www.culturekitchen.com/mole333...
http://www.belizenet.com/history/chap...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigeno...
http://www.panhandlenation.com/prehis...
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancie...
roger_o_thornhill (anonymous) says…
This is like the energizer bunny--it keeps going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going...
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Ok Lep- I haven't contributed anything to this discussion except jokes. Since the jokes seem to bother you, I'll make one serious post on this subject.
Though interesting, this isn't about all the "Fred Flintstones" that may have walked this part of the earth before this particular group of people were here.
It's not really even about them living in the past, holding grudges -or wallowing in self pity.
As I'm seeing it this is about nothing more than THIS group of people and THEIR feelings and how the American culture has always -and continues to ignore, disrespect, and invalidate their feelings, or even the defend their right to have them.
Anyone who can recall how the indigenous people were treated when their land was "settled", and is not moved to tears has no soul.. True, brutalities are suffered and committed by both sides in any war. That's a fact. However, if this were the contest some posters have to tried to make it out to be, -of which side suffered the most brutalities and losses-, we know who "wins" hands down. The way Indians were treated is nothing less than a disgrace.
The "get over it" attitude is the main reason those wronged can't let go, move on, and possibly even forgive. The wrongs have not been left in the past. Not because Indians are wallowing in self pity, but because they are still feeling wronged even to this day. How can you let go and move on from the past when the things that wronged you are not in the past, but still occurring? Insult to injury.
All this is really about,( I think), is recognition and respect. It is (understandably) perceived by the indigenous Americans to be insensitive and disrespectful of their feelings to (among other things) celebrate Columbus Day.
Acknowledgment, respect, validation, and recognition (or lack thereof) is central to this whole issue. It isn't fair or productive for people who aren't the ones feeling wronged to define to others what they should be feeling, or that it's dumb to feel that way, or why it's dumb to feel that way. It is what it is.
I don't think the anger, pain and resentment can be replaced with forgiveness until non-Indian people facilitate the process by offering up a whole lot of respect.
It can hardly be perceived as respect when we not only have celebrations that are insensitive to people, we defend our right to be insensitive , and invalidate and mock their feelings and opinions when they speak out against it...
That's my contribution.
The next remarks from me, if any, will be more blond jokes.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
haha honestly ljreader lots of comments on here seem to be jokes to me
KathleenG (anonymous) says…
Pray to God but row towards shore. Christains never learn you know.
carolannfugate (anonymous) says…
This Columbus issue comes up every year. Discovery is such a loose term. Either way it is not a cause for celebration.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
I don't know if it should be a cause for protest either
carolannfugate (anonymous) says…
You may be correct there. I think for the most part the Natives protest because of the many years schools portrayed Columbus a hero of sorts. Over time research has shown he was not the first. Regardless more of the protest is due to the actions of Columbus being celebrated. I would favor disposal of the Holiday altogether.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
I agree that the holiday is pretty pointless especailly since the americas are named for another italian, Amergo Vespucci. I don't think there are many Americans that portray him as a hero, the man stumbled upon the continent and wasn't the first to do so, but to protest him for being an evil man is just dumb and a waste of time. He had no idea he landed in an unknown place.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
I find it funny though that it seems that Indians have it set in their minds that they tried to welcome the Europeans with welcoming arms. Though this may be true for a few tribes, I'm sure there was as much hostility coming from the natives towards the Europeans. So to sit there and act like whites just came in took over and dominated the Natives without them being attacked also or first is just absurd.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
Not to mention that you can't blame just the settlers or the government, because these people were being sent by royalty and the rulers from other countries to take over this land so if you really want to blame anyone it should be towards the English Rulers, the French rulers ,the Spanish rulers, and the Italian rulers of the time because they're the ones who wanted to extra land.
Katara (anonymous) says…
by carolannfugate: "I would favor disposal of the Holiday altogether."
Or we can change the holiday to "Just a Cool Day to Have Off From Work for Everybody" Day and make it mandatory for all employers (including government) to celebrate it.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
"slack day"
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Okay- I know I said my last posting would be my last serious one, but one more. (I say "last one" in bars, too, but often don't stick to it).
Lep- How many people welcome the invasion of their country "with open arms"? I know I certainly don't.
It's called war. It was a war won not only by overwhelming force, but also by broken promises, betrayal and lies. I know it's said that all is fair in love and war, but this war was not fought with honor by the invaders.
Not content to defeat the "enemy", the Europeans attemped to strip indigenous people of their culture and spirituality. This has always struck me as being hypocritical, since the Europeans were themselves seeking freedom to worship as they pleased, but felt only their own freedoms to be of any importance.
Axe Columbus Day. Other than an opportunity to have a paid day off (for some, anyway), no one gives a hoot about it. Though not a national holiday, Groundhog's Day gets more attention and celebration.
If dumping Columbus Day would help to mend relations between us, it's worth it.
Replace it with a holiday celebrating friendship, respect and compromise. Or make a holiday that celebrates the American Indian culture, or someone they hold in high esteem- (a decision to be made by THEM). Or "slack day" works too.
I'm with carolannfugate- dump Columbus Day.
The_Original_Bob (anonymous) says…
Marian -
Hey Sugarbritches. I did see Air America filed banruptcy. I'm glad. Remember. I'm not a liberal. And I hated Al Franken when he was a hack writer on SNL. Sorry Love.
Do you have a good bankruptcy lawyer for them to use? You seem to have a lot of experience.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Actually, leprechaun, the colonists were so hardline that the rest of Europe didn't want them. Not until the early 19th century were people being sent over to actively conquer North America.
One more joke, LJReader, just for the Columbus Day occasion: it's from the Far Side.
Two Native Americans are standing on a beach waving to Columbus and his fleet goodbye. One turns to the other and says "Was I the only one who got a weird feeling when he said 'See you later'?"
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
so you are saying that not until the 1800s was America being populated? wow that's weird cause I kind of remember from high school that our government was founded in 1776 which is I believe the 18th century so maybe you mean the beginning of the 18th century but even that is wrong. not until the 17th century did it start to have bigger colonies. hahaha the 19th century you must be a comedian even though the jokes you intend to tell aren't funny, your knowledge of history is quite amusing.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Good one, Tychoman. And this should be the 500th post!
We did it!
ljreader (anonymous) says…
Scratch that. Make it 450- Now 451- Way past this old thing's bedtime. Later.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
The original settlers from Europe were being persecuted so they left. Your math is weird, too. And I'm talking about New England, not necessarily the Caribbean.
Early 19th century = early 1800s when the United States had finally established its government and allies and all the little minutae that comes with starting a country. Lewis and Clark, exploring west, etc.
"Actively conquer North America."--see Manifest Destiny and the colonists believing that the entire continent was a gift to their's from God and it was their job to conquer it "from sea to shining sea."
We may have to euthanize this subject; it's getting old going around in circles with creatures that don't really exist.
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
#454.
Earlier this year I had the pleasure of driving across the country with a young white lady from S.Cal. who,I am not joking,believed that the reservation was still covered with teepee villages.I really couldn't believe what I was hearing.I th0ught she was joking at first because this ignorance was just uncomprehensable.She was dead serious.
xenophonschild (anonymous) says…
Human beings do terrible things to each other.
Those who understand these things, and decide not to participate, are good people. But being inexperienced is not the same thing as being innocent. You have to understand racism - and from more than one viewpoint - before you find out who and what you are in relation to it.
Most of my years in the joint, the Indians lined up with me and mine in our skirmishes with blacks. Danny Smith, Louie Masqua, John LaViere, Junior Wishteya, Curtis Bentley were good convicts, good men. I noted recently that one of Louie's grandsons was involved in a stabbing here in town; no doubt, if he were still alive, Louie would smile wryly and say: "Don't seem like much has changed."
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
Oh rednek,
You said,
"Samurai....No , I just would like to see if you have the guts to talk to another woman face to face in the same manner that you write...."
Well dude, I have no problem saying this to anyone, face to face or other wise.
"And let me get this straight.....You constantly b!tch and moan about how evil the European settlers(or invaders, your choice) were....in other forums you stated that we were std ridden incestuous, and have no moral fibre....and in the same comment went on to say your culture(Nice lumping of all the nations.....you like to pick and choose with that)that your ancestors had none of these, or quite frankly any faults whatsoever"
Um, I did say that the media created a stereo typical image of the native american that perpetuated the myth of the "noble savage" and people ate it up. I also said that we were never so "innocent and pure" as the media makes us out to be.
"I on the other hand, if you will go through old posts, have been very open about acknowledging the many flaws of the europeans at the time.....And When I call on people like you to look at your people and admit that they to were flawed creatures....that you are the one that believes in racial superiority.....You have the stones to call me racist!
What you deem as "racist" (remember this honey..If you use that magic word too much it will lose it's power) is actually bafflement at encountering someone who refuses to have guilt over something that they absolutely no power to change,namely the way I ended up being born here."
I never said that we were better than you are. I have done a lot of research on history, and the justification for the land grabbing has always been the stance of racial superiority on the side of the settlers who just believed that they were more deserving than everyone else. Read some books on tribal/federal law and/or treaties and you will find this to be true as well. This is exactly what Deloria was talking about. You can't expect anything past and apology and a "get over it" before they decide they want to kill you to shut you up. connect the dots. Perhaps you hate the fact that you are that 1/8 native or whatever you proclaim, but you aren't going to bully me into being ashamed of my ancestry.
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
Gee, Patriotman, it must take a lot of work to be that ignorant and so full of misinformation and racist hatred.
rednekbuddha (Kelly Powell) says…
Whoa honey! you are mixing me up with marion...I know we all look alike to you, but i never claimed to have any naitive blood....
what you want to do is trace the descendants of the robber barons and make them personally accountable....they were the ones who prompted most of the goverment action against the nations....Not the average white shmuck whose ancestors were either forced here as indentured servants or came here because some rich bastard kicked them off their land in europe.
as_I_live_and_breathe (anonymous) says…
Tempest says:
that in no possible way discribes the life of Natives before Europeans got here. We lived indoors, just no the same structure as you did, we may not have had indoor plumming but neither did you until someone thought of it, and who is to say we wouldn't of thought of it ourselves? we had more than enough room for whatever form of shelter we lived in.
good lord how old are you?????
samurai_5 (anonymous) says…
You are right rednek, I did confuse you with marion. Sorry bout that. And all the rest still stands.
By the way, I took the liberty of looking this up, just to clear the air...
rac§ism /[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Oh God conservativeman's back AGAIN.
boomersooner4ever (anonymous) says…
columbus day sucks because i had to work
geekin_topekan (anonymous) says…
#472
BOE (anonymous) says…
" by Patriotman October 16, 2006 at 10:50 a.m.
The Indian was incapable of co-existance. "
===
While it's no guarantee, the study of American history could certainly help to prevent such embarrassing displays of ignorance.
Even a cursory reading of the removal of the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek, and Seminole from their ancestral lands in the S Eastern US, would dispel such a ridiculous notion.
There is no "co-existance" without equal protection under the law.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
good points patriotman
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Bad points, Patriotman. They never should have been forced to relocate anyway. Why didn't the settlers respect their sovereignty?
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
The land wasn't the settlers' to take.
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Then the invasion was wrong. Duh!
BOE (anonymous) says…
Yo mama's so fat,
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when she was diagnosed with the flesh eating disease, the doctor gave her 5 years to live.
kcwarpony (anonymous) says…
"The indian culture was unacceptable. Had they figured it out they'd still be in the south. Seminole and other tribes same thing."
What?! There're no Indians in the South?
Gee, wish you would have told us sooner. I guess the meeting the United South and Eastern Tribes org had last week at the Mississippi Choctaw home turf was all a dream...
http://www.usetinc.org/defaultpage.cf...
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
why was the invasion wrong? just cause you think it was wrong for the europeans to take this country? what ethnicity are you tychoman are you full blooded Indian? if not than you should thank god that you those people did INVADE this land because we wouldn't be here otherwise so think you before you react to anything before jumping blindly into conversation to back up your liberal hippy talk
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
Sasquatch, there might have been an ethnocentricman on the boards for like 45 seconds or so.
Leprechaun: It wasn't theirs to take! No, I'm not full-blooded Native American, but I am a member of a tribe down in Oklahoma. I'm descended from them.
"If not than you should thank God that you those people did INVADE this land because we wouldn't be here otherwise so think you before you react to anything before jumping blindly into conversation to back up your liberal hippy talk." English, please. Remember our little talk last week about people taking you seriously?
I should thank God (agnostic, but thanks for assuming) that the white people (my ancestors, too) invaded this land? Yeah, God forbid we live in europe. That is the most laughable comment you've made yet, leprechaun. But keep going, you're excellent at raising the bar.
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
Tychoman-
I'll type on here anyway I damn well please if you hadn't noticed I dont care about my sentence structure for this i'm not being graded. who is talking about being in Europe, no one why bring that into the conversation, so you have white ancestry? than good thing they came right? cause otherwise you wouldn't be here! I suppose not such a good thing but that's my opinion of you Im sure somewhere there is someone who loves you, so if you don't thank some god for the fact they came thank europeans which is not to say Europe like your monkeya** did
Rainydaze49 (anonymous) says…
Hmmm.... Trail of Tears....Relocations....Massacres....assimilation. But we are still here. Whether these people see that or not, we as indigenous people are still here. Whether they throw alcoholism in our faces, supposed "statistics" and "recent studies", whether they throw "government handouts" into the mix, we are still here. After all these years. After all the trials and tribulations. We are still here. We have suffered at the hands of this country's "leaders". We have our bad just as any others, but we have a lot of good. We have a lot to be proud of. We have a lot to show. I'm glad that there are these fine ignorant men and women on here, who believe what happened to Native Americans is okay. Rock on. It gives me fire to prove it all wrong. It reminds me that we are still at war on our own lands. Say what you will, but when it all comes down, again, we'll still be here. We don't ask for your approval of out society. But you do well to keep showing everyone what this country has always believed; Native Americans are in the way. So go ahead, keep on with all the little remarks about how natives never would have made it without the kind heroic white man, cuz just like the typical American, there is hatred and anger and fear behind those little remarks. Fear that we know something you don't. Fear that we are still leaving after all that we've endured. Fear that we never backed down, that OUR men and women were faced with some of the harshest treatments that man could create. We are still here, we are still thriving, there's some truth for your a$$....
Tychoman (anonymous) says…
You didn't understand my post--story of your life. And saying that none of us would be alive today if our ancestors had invaded a sovereign people's land, engaged in backroom and illegal tactics to break their own deals is just speculation and a ridiculous argument on your part. Surprise, surprise.
ljreader (anonymous) says…
NOW it's 500 posts!. woohoo!
To celebrate: http://www.therightfoot.net/mystuff/w...
gr (anonymous) says…
Sasquatch34: "At any rate, what I am saying is the breaking of the treaties with many Indian tribes was wrong. According to our Constitution any treaty signed by our government becomes constitutional law. "
So, a country invades another. It takes their land. It drives them away. Then it makes up a law. Then it breaks that law. Somehow, that makes it "wrong".
Is it just me or is something "wrong" with this concept of "wrongness"?
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
Are you saying that the initial wrong made the invaders infallible ever thereafter?
How convenient!
carolannfugate (anonymous) says…
Sasquatch said
I love my country. I believe we are, for the most part, good people. That is why this subject troubles me so.
Sitting Bull said
If a man loses anything and goes back and looks carefully for it he will find it, and that is what the Indians are doing now when they ask you to give them the things that were promised them in the past; and I do not consider that they should be treated like beasts, and that is the reason I have grown up with the feelings I have...I feel that my country has gotten a bad name , and I want it to have a good name; it used to have a good name. And I sit sometimes and wonder who it is that has given it a bad name Sitting Bull (Sioux)
That is my favorite Sitting Bull Quote; thanks for reminding me so early in the morning.
gr (anonymous) says…
Bozo: "Are you saying that the initial wrong made the invaders infallible ever thereafter?"
"Infallible" according to what? Are you saying the people who do wrong are held to their standards?
How absurd!
===========
Sasquatch,
Don't narrow it down to just Wakarusafest. That's pathetically trivial. What about American citizens being held without trial? Sure, whatever happened at the drugfest is important now, but things that happened during the formation of our country is rather mute compared to what's happening now.
And Imminent Domain kind of makes any treaty null and void.
kcwarpony (anonymous) says…
I think you mean eminent domain, the right of a government to take private property for public use by virtue of the superior dominion of the sovereign power over all lands within its jurisdiction.
A treaty is a contract between sovereign nations, government to government. The Constitution declares that treaties are "the Supreme Law of the Land". Eminent domain can not be applied here.
gr (anonymous) says…
Ok, eminent domain. Thank you for correcting me.
The "sovereign nation" was within the "land within its jurisdiction". I seem to be having a hard time in explaining this. Maybe an example will help. Suppose someone came and stole your house. Then, they made up a "treaty" saying you could live in your garage. Later, they kicked you out of the garage. You, and others, seem to be whining about how terrible it is that you are kicked out of the garage but are missing the whole point of having your house stolen.
Do you propose that "treaties" are somehow more important than right to trial and the senate voting that it's ok to torture people who are "labeled" enemies?
The house is falling down on our heads, and some only see a issue with whether there was lead in the paint.
kcwarpony (anonymous) says…
Two sovereign nations, U.S. government and whatever Indian tribe (nation) the treaty deals with, both sovereign nations with their own lands. Like the United States and Canada. US can not take lands from Canada through eminent domain.
The Supreme Court has said that an Indian treaty is not a grant of rights to Indians but a grant of rights from us. Treaties do not grant rights to Indians but remove the rights we had. With that said, any right NOT expressly extinguished by a treaty or federal statute is reserved to the tribe. This fundamental principle of Indian law is known as "reserved rights" doctrine. We have many rights in addition to those described in treaties.
Lands ceded by treaties are gone but not our rights. Breaking a treaty is breaking the law.
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
gr said,
"Are you saying the people who do wrong are held to their standards?
How absurd!"
No, I was just trying to figure out what the hell you were trying to say.
I still don't know.
SpeedRacer (anonymous) says…
I have thrown off the yoke of oppression called Political Correctness so intend to speak my mind. The continental aborigines are not unique in being a conquered people..it has happened wordwide for thousands of years and those ethnicities who are the conquered still are bitter about it as I expect will always be the case. I feel bad that the smallpox that was inadvertantly unleashed on the population contributed to its almost absolute extinction. But I will feel guilty about Columbus Day. I celebrate the accomplishments of my forefathers just as I would expect that the aborigines would celebrate the accomplishments of their own ancestors.
SpeedRacer (anonymous) says…
Corrections: that should read "I will not feel guilty..." also, I believe from the history I have read that measles rather than smallpox caused the most deaths in the population.
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
You don't have to "feel guilty." Just recognize Columbus for the greedy, murdering bastard he was.
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
If you weren't such a loud-mouthed crank, maybe you'd get a reply.
SpeedRacer (anonymous) says…
Shadower, I don't know about all of the posts missing, but I know that when someone is banned and all posts have been removed (as has occurred here) the posts are still in the count but there is no trace of them. This would occur on any of the threads where that person has posted.
gr (anonymous) says…
Pony: "Lands ceded by treaties are gone but not our rights. Breaking a treaty is breaking the law."
Yeah. And what about what I said before on being held without trial? Only difference is one is a has been and the other is happening now. You also seem to be forgetting the main point: what about an invasive country taking over land - then forming "treaties"....
Leprechaunking13 (anonymous) says…
what about the fact that this has gone on for hundreds of thousands of years since humans came into existence. Remember it, but also remember that this has happened to EVERY race of people just because you are the most recent doesn't mean anything, you are just like everyone else. again don't blame this country for invading other countries did that
atat_at_at_at (anonymous) says…
You said a true thing, Moria.
atat_at_at_at (anonymous) says…
Oh, golly, no! Simple keying error, that's all. Sorry.
carolannfugate (anonymous) says…
Let's try something new and crazy just for the fun of it. We can talk about the topic on every thread today. The Topic of this discussion is {American Indians revive Columbus Day protest}
carolannfugate (anonymous) says…
I have never emailed a single person on this or any other forum; you must be confused.
janeb (anonymous) says…
Marion says
And some of you out there actually believe that I control what the LJW does on its own website as though I am The Illuminati, the Jesuits, The Free Masons, Professor Moriarty, the the CFR and the Whatitsburgers all rolled up into one!
Jane says
Yes Marion is everyone and everything including Tarzan Lord of The Jungle.
atat_at_at_at (anonymous) says…
Moira, very interesting.
carolann must have so many usernames going that she just forgets what she has done on each one.
atat_at_at_at (anonymous) says…
An excellent reason to stay anonymous.
atat_at_at_at (anonymous) says…
Seems like an ill wind blew through there for a moment.
RomanNose (anonymous) says…
Lawrence is a good town and has always treated me very kindly. I've never had to deal with any racism and feel very comfortable here. I attribute this to my incredibly handsome Cheyenne features, which all of you are far too busy gazing upon. Had I protested on Columbus Day, the good citizens of Lawrence would have probably erupted in some sort of raunch-riot after watching me parade around like some prized animal and I was more concerned about this rather than about Mr. Columbus. Plus you never really see anybody protesting the aniversary of the Bighorn and from what I understand was pretty nasty for George and the 7th.
ControlFreak (anonymous) says…
It's been almost a month and this is still one of the most active discussions? Come on, people.
livingstone (anonymous) says…
For those who are living in the shadow and believe what Columbus had done is great... you are also acknowledging the efforts of Osama Bin Laden too.