'Tis the season to be merry. Just watch out for the grinches.
The holiday season started on a sour note for Susan Turner, a Lawrence woman who said her home was burglarized and credit card stolen last week.
Turner said Monday that she was amazed at how easily the suspects racked up hundreds of dollars in purchases at local business on Black Friday - during the day-after-Thanksgiving shopping frenzy - using her credit card.
"Had somebody bothered to ask for ID, I don't think it would have gone that far," she said. "We all pay. We had to pay somebody to arrest them. We've got to pay to try them. It's not fair to anybody."
Something amiss
Turner, 49, who works in billing at a local medical office, said she woke up Friday morning and noticed something wasn't right in her apartment at Westgate Apartments, 4641 W. Sixth St.
"My cat usually sits in the windowsill there and she was leaning out of the window, so I noticed the screen was broken. I thought she had done it," she said.
When she went to get her purse later that morning, she couldn't find it and realized her apartment may have been burglarized. She got online and looked at her bank account.
"It was out. They had taken everything, plus overdrafted me," she said. "I called the police and had them on the way, and I called the bank."
According to police reports, her bank card had been used that morning to make two purchases at Wal-Mart, 3300 Iowa: one for $200 and one for $486. A third attempt to buy $723 worth of merchandise at the store failed, apparently because the account was overdrawn by then, Turner said.
'Astounding'
"I don't think that anybody at Wal-Mart was suspicious of them, and actually they should have been because there was three purchases - bang, bang, bang," she said. "That's kind of astounding to me. : You should have to show ID for every purchase. It's a pain : but that would have stopped them right there."
Jennifer Attebery, left, a personal banker at CornerBank, 4621 W. Sixth St., assists Susan Turner, Lawrence, with Turner's account. Turner's stolen credit card was used to ring up hundreds of dollars in purchases Friday. Turner said that even though she won't have to pay the cost of the stolen goods, she was amazed that the crime was so easy to commit. Police eventually caught and arrested three suspects.
Also included in the spree was a purchase for $43.64 at Hy-Vee, 3504 Clinton Parkway, and a $34 purchase at University 66, 2434 Iowa.
Kory Lundberg, a spokesman for Wal-Mart, said in a statement: "Like many retailers, we do not have a strict policy on ID confirmation for credit card transactions."
He deferred comment on the rules for verifying credit cards to issuers such as Visa or MasterCard. Visa's rules for merchants instruct them to match the signature on the back of the card with the receipt before accepting the purchase - and to make a special phone call if it appears suspicious.
But the rules say showing ID can't be a requirement for accepting the card, and that the company "believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures."
Convenience vs. security
Crimes such as the one that happened to Turner drain $56 billion annually from the U.S. economy, according to James Van Dyke, who studies identity fraud. That's not including other costs such as police, technology, courts and store security employees.
But consumers demand convenience.
"There's two forces at work here - one of security and one of convenience," said Van Dyke, founder and president of Javelin Strategy & Research in Pleasanton, Calif. "They kind of work against each other. Increasingly, to encourage higher levels of convenience, stores are not requiring a signature at all."
Purse thief goes on shopping spree during 'Black Friday'
Susan Turner is a victim of purse theft. The thief who snatched her purse quickly went to action jumping all over the holiday sales and racking up a whopping $1400 on her debit card before she knew what hit her. Because of the hectic nature of the day, none of the department stores the thief hit ever checked for his ID to match with the card. Enlarge video
He says banks should be giving cardholders the power to make customized security settings for their cards - for example, requiring a photo ID each time their card is used.
For now, he said, retailers look at fraudulent purchases as a cost of doing business. Usually, in a case like Turner's, the store where the purchase happened is on the hook for the cost. That means higher prices.
"The most successful businesses are always going to pass on their costs to consumers," Van Dyke said.
Turner said she didn't know what her cards were used to buy.
Three Lawrence residents - Christina Marie Briggs, 23, Joey Gipson Jr., 29, and Richard E. Elston Jr., 30, all of 1309 N.J. - were arrested in the case.
Gipson and Elston were charged Monday with aggravated burglary and theft, and Elston also was charged with criminal use of a financial card. Briggs was released from jail on bond Friday night before formal charges could be filed and was ordered to appear in court Dec. 8.
At the time of his arrest, Elston had two pending burglary cases: one for an auto burglary in June and one for a home burglary in September in Eudora.
"I know I didn't do this crime," Elston told Judge Pro Tem Peggy Kittel during his first court appearance Monday. She set his bond at $50,000 and Gipson's at $15,000.
Related articles
- Out of the Red: Holiday cheer minus financial fear (11-26-06)
- 'Tis the season for bargain hunters (11-25-06)
- 6News Video: Eager customers ready for "Black Friday" faced long lines
- Retail workers gear up for onslaught (11-24-06)
- See the complete report conducted by Development Strategies Inc., a consulting company hired by the Lawrence City Commission to study the city's retail market.
- 6News Video: Retail stores ready for "Black Friday"
- Holiday season renews debate on where to allow city's retail (11-23-06)
- Holiday events aplenty (11-23-06)
- Stores increase Black Friday hype with extended hours (11-21-06)
- Chat about Christmas toy shopping with Margaret Warner (11-20-06)
- Downtown events set to kick off holidays (11-20-06)
- Holiday shopping survival tips (11-20-06)
Comments
sublime 11 years, 6 months ago
That sucks. To steal someones card and jack thier credit is chickensh!t. I think it should be mandantory to produce an ID when making a credit purchase.
jonas 11 years, 6 months ago
Walmart doesn't ask for ID because they think, as Craigers said, that it alienates the customers. I used to collect checks for walmart when I worked for a local collection bureau, and some of the things we would come by were rediculous. Had I wanted, me and a friend could have pulled a one to two thousand dollar bad check heist at walmart with no particular difficulties.
There was one, where a guy gave them a freak'n starter check, and his name and address were, seriously, written on in crayon. And the check was for over 600 dollars!!
bretherite 11 years, 6 months ago
It is against the Visa/Mastercard merchant agreement to ask for ID if the card has a valid signature. A business can be fined up to 100,000 per violation. Merchants also can't require a minimum purchase for use of a Visa/Mastercard. A card is considered non valid if it does not have a signature and says "SEE ID"
anggrn99 11 years, 6 months ago
You know come to think of it, they dont even check ID when someone cashes a check! I had a bunch of checks stolen and they were wrote at Wal-Mart, but the thing that bothered me was that they didn't ask for ID because who ever had done this didn't even sign my husbands name right for one and another, the Driver License Number was KS 123-456-789! Does that make sense? Wal-Mart took me to court because of all of this, and was trying to sue us for 558.00, over a 42.32 check that we didnt write! Yea they dont give a crap about security measures!
tlinderflohman 11 years, 6 months ago
I have to show my ID when I buy one package of pseudoephedrine free cold tablets. Why is Wal-Mart so hesitant to ask for ID when someone makes a large purchase on a credit card?
Nikki May 11 years, 6 months ago
I would like to know the same thing. Ok, if you go in and buy toilet paper and it's only few dollars, fine don't id. But several hundred, come on. This happened to me when I lost my wallet. As soon as I knew it was gone, I got online to check my accounts, and called all the cards and cancelled. When the police came, they asked how I knew that things were used and I told them giving them printouts. Nothing ever came of it though. I was lucky in that they only used my paypal account and it only had $50 in it. They did try to charge over $400 at walmart 3 times though. THAT should have been a tip off. Walmart really should look at their policy.
lepchun 11 years, 6 months ago
So much for homeland Security.
craigers 11 years, 6 months ago
Too many people get ticked if you card them and then are mad when the people that steal their cards don't get carded. I worked at Target for about five years and I had people yell at me for checking their signature on every purchase with a credit card. And when they signed real fast and it didn't matched I asked for an ID. Boy did they get mad real quick about that, but I knew they would be the same people that get mad if I didn't ID a theif no matter what the purchase. There shouldn't be a spending rule on whether you check the signature or not. It should be to check the card with all credit card purchases or not at all. You have to give the cashiers direction on these fraud issues. The direction I received when at Target was that the risk of inconveniencing a guest is not worth them having to eat a fraudulent sale so signature checking went out the window. It really sucks. I purposely write check ID on all of my cards and it bothers me when people don't. Oh well...
Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years, 6 months ago
oh but jonas as long as it is not pencil it is leagal don't ya know. Stores do not check id because they say it makes custemors mad and of course it is all about the business of money, you add black friday to the mix and just about everyone was making several hundred doller and more purchases so no that would not have been the alarm for them. Sorry your purse was stolen hope that all the bull and hassle of getting this figured out does not get you down to much. Goodluck.
Sigmund 11 years, 6 months ago
The merchants do only what is minimally required to get people through the line a quickly as possible and while it is a hassle, the credit card company will remove the fraudulent purchases from the bill, deactivate the card, and issue another card.
Merchants pay a portion of every purchase as a fee to the CC company to cover the fraudulent use so their attitude is they have already paid the CC company to take care of any problems. Even accounting for all the fraud they have to eat the CC companies are among the most profitable of all businesses.
ctutgo 11 years, 6 months ago
Late Friday afternoon, I was asked for my ID to purchase about $25 worth of merchandise on my Visa at Walmart. I am not a Walmart "basher," but what is the policy? I was under the impression it was policy to check ID on purchases over $50. But come to think of it, I have made many purchases over that amount and have never been asked. I assumed, at the time (Fri,) that I was asked because it was "Black Friday" and they had enhanced security measures, which I appreciated. I guess I was wrong.
mom_of_three 11 years, 6 months ago
There are some retailers which do require you to show ID to use a credit card, and ask you to keep your card out. I have no problems with it at all.
I used to work in a retail store for 7 years and know how upset people get when you want to check ID, but the majority knows you are doing it for their safety.
craigers 11 years, 6 months ago
bretherite, I also sign the card along with the SeeID prompt. Either way, it seems like nobody checks anymore. And for the most part, check readers will automatically approve checks that are right under $10 so criminals can get a lot of little stuff and probably never get caught or declined if they write little checks.
Angel Gillaspie 11 years, 6 months ago
I may be in the minority here, but I always THANK the cashier who asks me for an ID or goes out of his/her way to turn my card over and actually look at the signature. We as consumers should be grateful to merchants who make it a point of checking - it is for the consumer's protection as well as the merchant's. Shoot, I may even start ASKING cashiers to check my signature! I have used my husband's check card at Dillon's and other stores and have never been questioned, either by the cashier OR by the bank. I have also heard that you can sign your name however you want, even using someone else's name, and the sale will go through. I am tempted to try it, using something like "Marilyn Monroe" or "George W. Bush," just to see...
tweetybird2 11 years, 6 months ago
My purse was stolen a couple months ago. It was a nightmare. They got my credit cards, debit cards, checks for two different accounts, keys to home and business, drivers license, social security card. I learned a very hard lesson. Have as little as possible in your purse. Before I realized it was gone they tried to use a credit card at a ATM. The ATM did not have a camera so there wasn't much that could be done. They went to Topeka and tried to use it several times but by then I had everything stopped. The Topeka police were no help at all. They said I was not the victim and would not even take a report. They said the stores would be the victims if they were out any money. They were not caught so now I am watching for idenity theft.
lynnd 11 years, 6 months ago
In my experience stores are more likely to check signatures or ask for ID when using a credit card....when I use my debit card, which is most of the time, almost no one asks to see it.
craigers 11 years, 6 months ago
lynnd, that's because if you use it as debit then you enter a PIN and that is just like an electronic signature.
Bone777 11 years, 6 months ago
Richard 'Dicky' E. Elston Jr., quit victimizing people.
You now will see what it feels like to have someone climb in your back door and steal something from you.
Better start stretching now.
craigers 11 years, 6 months ago
TOB, I think when all of us pay for tires and those large sums of money we would like to have a credit card with somebody else's name on it. :)
mom_of_three 11 years, 6 months ago
And Wal-mart probably won't take responsibility for their part is this fiasco.
One of their mechanics in Overland park broke the oil pan plug on our car last year, and Wal-mart home office denied it was their fault (without looking at the proof - the oil pan). Over $600 to get it fixed, and still waiting to be paid back.
I don't shop there unless it is a last resort.
This story only reinforces my thoughts about Wallyworld.
HappyFace 11 years, 6 months ago
Have you ever noticed that the cashier swipes the card (really fast) and hands it back to you without ever looking at the name? Then you sign the slip and they stuff it into the register drawer and never see the signature? It could belong to anyone! Sometimes (though rarely) someone will ask me for ID.....I always thank them for checking.....and they look at me like I was from Mars! laff :)
Linda Endicott 11 years, 6 months ago
There have been many times when I was asked to show ID when using my card at Wal-Mart. There have also been many times that I wasn't asked for ID. The same for checks.
Wal-Mart will check signatures randomly...not every time for every card. Same with checks. Their computer system is set up to ask for ID once in every however many transactions. So the request for ID may hit you, and it may not.
However, when my bank changed owners and names, and they also changed my account number, I was asked for ID at Wal-Mart every time I used the card for about a month and a half. The bank had issued new cards, and I guess they check more rigorously if it's tagged as a new card.
By the way, in case nobody else realizes this, you also have the option of using a debit card as a credit card, and signing instead of using a PIN. But you still can't spend more than you have in your account.
I would, think, however, that any transactions for a large amount of money would automatically require ID. I have had Wal-Mart card me if I used a check there twice in the same day. Shouldn't the same hold true for credit cards? Multiple purchases on the same card on the same day may mean nothing, especially at Christmas time, but I'd think they'd want to be safe rather than sorry.
Adrienne Sanders 11 years, 6 months ago
I don't think this has a dang thing to do with WalMart. I've had my signature checked at WM some of the time, but not all, and never had my ID checked. That seems pretty standard in my experience. The only place I can think of that has checked my ID, ever, was Kohls.
Clearly there's some debate over whether people should or even are allowed to check ID... but why can't the stores check the signature at least? Shouldn't they be doing so already?
bankboy119 11 years, 6 months ago
A few things:
Bretherite the card is still valid if it says "See ID." At the banks I have worked at we always told the customers to put See ID and not sign the card so that it would be safer should some one get a hold of the card. That way if some one does get the card and they don't know the person's signature they will not be able to forge it. If the card sig is forged, it is much harder to prove that it wasn't you who actually made the purchase unless there is video surveillance(sp).
One time my mother had given me her card to go make a purchase at a fabric store here in town. I signed it Santa Clause and was not asked for ID. It astounds me that if some one comes in with a member of the opposite sex's card they aren't always asked for ID.
Jonas you are completely right about the people who get mad at being asked for ID are the first ones to complain if some one makes a transaction out of their account that isn't them. Saw that in the branches more than once. We had to tell one gentleman who got so upset that he said he was going to pull "all his money" that we could put a note on his account saying that no one is ever to ask for any ID but that meant that anyone who came in off the street would be allowed to take it out as well. Tellers change often and there's obviously more than one branch, so no matter what branch would have serviced the account they would not have asked for ID. It shut him up.
bankgirl 11 years, 6 months ago
Go CornerBank!!!
imagold 11 years, 6 months ago
"Also included in the spree was a purchase for $43.64 at Hy-Vee, 3504 Clinton Parkway, and a $34 purchase at University 66, 2434 Iowa."
Why is everyone focused on Wal-Mart here? Hy-Vee and the University 66 should also be asked about their ID policies. There's no one to ask you for ID at a pre-pay gas pump, but no one's complaining about that, are they?
I feel badly for Ms. Turner and hope the guilty parties are punished. I'd also suggest a noisy dog. May not keep someone out, but might have made them think twice or roused her from her sleep.
Linda Endicott 11 years, 6 months ago
I personally focused on Wal-Mart because I haven't been to the other two places, so I'm not familiar with how they do things.
TheEleventhStephanie 11 years, 6 months ago
My debit card has my photo on it.
lawrencian 11 years, 6 months ago
a simple solution would be to add the letters "CID" on the signature line on the back of your card -- I am asked for my ID on almost every purchase I make of any amount, when I hand over my card, and I always thank the cashier for asking, since it is at my request.
cutny 11 years, 6 months ago
Well, at least Wal-Mart got their money, so that's enough for them to keep going. Bowhunter...If people knew what "whinning" was, maybe you could convince them to stop.
don_burgess 11 years, 6 months ago
I have "SEE ID" on the back of my card also, but no one ever asks.
I give my drivers license along with my credit card everytime I make a purchase. Even then, cashiers dont give a singe glance to my ID.
The system needs to be changed.
Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years, 6 months ago
You know what is so sad? No matter what messures are taken and laws are made the bad guys always seem to find away.
KansasKel 11 years, 6 months ago
A couple of weeks ago at Wal-mart I had to show ID AND get manager approval for a $50 purchase because I was using the same card for a 2nd time in the same day at their store. Yet these people managed to use it for hundreds of dollars of purchases in the same day??? So random.
Laura Watkins 11 years, 6 months ago
my checks were stolen three years ago and the person who stole them spent over $400 in three different wal-marts (the one here, one in blue springs and one in ottawa). coming from someone who worked in retail for two years, it's absolutely ridiculous that walmart doesn't have a strict id policy. i even turned away kids using their parents credit cards because it wasn't in their name (this was the store's policy).
Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years, 6 months ago
why you hate john? It really is the person behind the register and on black friday they jut are told get rung up and move on. Not very nice for someone whos stuff was stolen and then used but it is the reality of the times.
craigers 11 years, 6 months ago
ihatejohn, I know what you mean. I got yelled at quite a few times, especially here in Lawrence when I turned down people (students) using their parents cards. I asked if they were an authorized signer and they didn't know so we called and about 90% of the time they weren't and I denied the transaction. For some reason they didn't like that. I didn't understand why, if mom and dad were going to pay for the use of the card why not get one for them in their name on the account?
nbnozzy 11 years, 6 months ago
My business always asks for ID when someone uses a credit card unless the person has their photo already on it. Not once in 7 years have I taken a bad card. As the merchant, if I accept a fraudulent card, I am out the merchandise. Not worth taking the risk.
davidnta 11 years, 6 months ago
I am under the impression that by Visa's policy, they require that retailers do not check ID, but the signature on the back of the credit card. If the retailer checks the ID, then they are violating Visa's policy, and they can get in trouble for it. That is if you bother reporting them. I remember a couple of my friends reporting a store for checking IDs, and afterwards, they stopped doing that.
If you seen those commercials with Visa and the no checking ID, that's where it is coming from.
Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years, 6 months ago
wow just paid attention to the pic. I know who this is and she works hard for her money, like I said before goodluck with the after fact hassle susan.
OldEnuf2BYurDad 11 years, 6 months ago
Another common scam during the holidays is the passing of counterfeit money. Money is changing hands so fast, and so many people are impatiently waiting in line - the cashiers have to cut corners to keep the line moving. So, NO, if the person isn't wearing a t-shirt that says "I'm in a crime ring", they don't question a lot. Counterfeiters hold their "cash" all year, then hit the stores hard during the holidays. They get away with a lot simply because of how busy it is.
Remember what airline travel was like prior to 9/11? CONGRESS was looking into airline delays because travellers were conplaining about flight delays at airports. THAT is part of what made us so vulnerable on 9/11. The same thing happens in retail: when you have 20 red-faced people in your line, you do what it takes to keep the line moving. This is why these scams work so well: WE CREATE THE SITUATION by being so impatient and demanding. Don't blame Wal-Mart; blame the way you treat cashiers when you get impatient.
Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years, 6 months ago
from a former person of retail, thankyou oldenough.
Richard Heckler 11 years, 6 months ago
I say ID should be required on all check and credit card purchases always.
spammer89 11 years, 6 months ago
What is sad that on all my bank and credit cards i have written SEE ID in caps, you would be amazed at how many people will actually look right at it and never ask. It amazed me.
Bone777 11 years, 6 months ago
My wife had her wallet stolen in Topuke-a at Chuck E. Cheese's. Great place to steal, because everyone is watching their kids. The thief went directly to the mall and started running up charges.
We reported it immediately, so we weren't on the hook for the money , but we still tried to help get it resolved.
As soon as we received the cancelled checks, we would take them to the Topeka Police and give them to the detectives.
They did not do diddly. There were charges for a DELIVERY pizza, televisions, car detailing, etc. (over $8000 in all.) The detectives never did arrest anyone.
They told us that it was not a priority crime. Try going in any store and taking $8000 worth of merchandise and see if anyone makes it a priority.
Topeka Detectives = lazy cops
concernedparent 11 years, 6 months ago
obviously the "one" to blame here is the cat. What was he thinking just sitting there watching the burglar? She needs to take him to the pound and get a dog. Geez....
walleye9898 11 years, 6 months ago
You guys are so focused on griping about card policies that you ahve gone away from what really needs to happen.
Our great justice system puts them out on bond, one idiot had priors for burglary. They will all get minimum sentences if any and be back doing it again in the future.
The three idiots that stole and used her card ought to be dragged into the street, shackled to a post and give the lady a baseball bat and let her recover her money out of their hides.
As far as cards go, they all should require a PIN and be forced to use it just like debit cards.
Richard Heckler 11 years, 6 months ago
A team effort would help:
ID check required always plus substantial prosecution.
Sean Livingstone 11 years, 6 months ago
Other than checking ID, I think all banks should issue credit cards with photos of the owner on them. It reduces the hassle of having to take out another ID where you can also fake.
concernedparent 11 years, 6 months ago
On friday I used my card at Target for $344 dollars at 630 in the morning. I was never asked for ID. I went to walmart afterwards and spent 56 dollars, and was asked for ID. Later that night I went back to walmart for Toilet Paper and spent 7 dollars, where I was again asked for my ID since I'd used my card there twice. I don't really think people should be pointing fingers at Walmart.
kes18 11 years, 6 months ago
I work at a nation wide retailer here in Lawrence and I have been informed recently (this was only in the past month or so) to never ask for ID on credit cards, not even ones that say "see id" or CID. Though just before that and ever since I started working there, we did check the ones that said "see id."
So by company policy apparently I'm not supposed to check any IDs on any credit cards anymore.
At my store, I don't know if the signatures matter unless the person ringing you out actually checks them. I and my co-workers would always buy things on our credit cards and then have fun doodling or writing out messages in the electronic signature box.
We still must check IDs for check purchases though, which we would get in big trouble if we didn't.
dthroat 11 years, 6 months ago
Mr_R - Thank you (and I feel wierd saying that since I don't normally agree with you). OK - Some of you long time posters should recognize at least ONE name from that list, if not the address.
Seems like these people are frequent flyers and are CONSTANTLY breaking into peoples homes, stealing things, and using credit cards. There have been SEVERAL recent reports concerning these people and at least ELSTON has been arrested repeatedly. WTF is he still allowed out on bond to commit more and more crimes.
And this has nothing to do with the cops. They seem to arrest him a lot, he just keeps getting out (I assume on bond) even though he is arrested for the SAME STUFF again and again.
It is this kind of stuff that just p* me off. Regular hard working people are suffering losses, because the system WON'T keep people like this from preying on us.
OK, time to stop ranting.
Thank you
irnmadn88 11 years, 6 months ago
Imbed everyone with low jack identity chips and a line of credit...swipe your wrist and be gone. Hmmm....sounds like science fiction but ???
Whatever happened to good ol' green cash?
lynnd 11 years, 6 months ago
does anyone know why Visa ( and/or other credit card issuers) supposedly requires that retailers NOT check ID? Why is that a violation of Visa's policy? I'm curious about that. Perhaps people need to start complaining to the credit card companies if this is their policy. It really makes no sense to me why they would care if the retailer checks ID or not.
Sigmund 11 years, 6 months ago
Many years ago I had one check, the last one in my checkbook, stolen. I contacted the financial institution and had them close the account and set up a new account.
YEARS later I get a letter from a collection agency about a bad check. I go down and look at it and it was written to a store I never shop at and it has a forged signature and was returned "NSF - Acoount Closed."
When I told them that it was forged they had me give examples of my signature and fill out a sworn Affidavit to present to the DA's office that the signature was forged. Since the "signature" on the check was exactly as it was printed on the check and I NEVER sign my name liike it is printed on the check they backed off and the merchant ate the loss. It would have been trivial to show them hundreds of checks with my signature and it would be obvious to anyone it was not my signature.
lynnd 11 years, 6 months ago
Marion, I did check the link that you posted. It doesn't say WHY this is their policy, only that it is their policy. They only potential "clue" it provides is that the credit card issuer is out the money if the person goes over their card limit. What if it's not the authorized user who's making the purchase? Then what? I know most credit card companies have fraud policies in place where you can file complaints with them, but why not nip it in the bud in the beginning and save everybody the hassle, and just let the retailers check ID's?
If someone stole my credit card and used it, and wasn't ID'd because Visa won't let the retailers do that, and then I had to take the time and effort to fill out paperwork, I'd be mad. It could all be avoided if the retailer just checked ID and refused the sale.
Of course they'd have to actually check ID's, which many might not, but it could potentially prevent some fraud.
don_burgess 11 years, 6 months ago
Just what are you saying Mr Ramirez? Anyone who lives on the east side is an inbred, undereducated backwoods hillybilly?
I live on the eastside and I'm proud of my neighborhood, alright?
I'll bet you are one of the only mexians who live on the westside!
Bone777 11 years, 6 months ago
I would like to see an automatic upgrade on a persons original charge if they are arrested while out on bond.
Misdemeanors become felonies.
Mr. Ramirez -"squeal like a pig"
Rick Werner 11 years, 6 months ago
Just ANOTHER reason NOT to shop at Walmart. Man do I hate Walmart.
blessed3x 11 years, 6 months ago
The cashiers at Home Depot almost always ask me to keep my card out so they can compare signatures. Some of the other posters are correct, however, I have seen people blow up at cashiers who ask to see their ID.
javery 11 years, 6 months ago
Interesting link Marion. One mostly somewhat unrelated issue came up in my mind. There is a section that talks about extra charges for using a credit card. It indicates that Visa and Mastercard prohibit the practice, and lists Kansas as a state that prohibits, by law, merchants from charging customers extra for using a credit card. Anyone know if there is an exception for the government? I know that KU charges a 2% 'technology fee' if you use a credit card to pay for tuition/other fees.
lynnd 11 years, 6 months ago
Thanks Marion.
that is crazy. It's ridiculous to me that the merchant would be on the hook for fraudulent use, when the card issuer won't allow the merchants to check for fraudulent use. That makes no sense.
I've wondered too about the fee that some places charge for using credit cards. I know it's not allowed, but how do places like KU get away with it, as noted above?
Thanks again Marion for the legwork.
concernedparent 11 years, 6 months ago
and the county who charges 3% or something crazy like that to use it there.
melott 11 years, 6 months ago
Actually, it is against Visa card policy for any merchant to ask for extra ID. It is against state law for anyone to ask for a phone number.
mom_of_three 11 years, 6 months ago
However, if the merchant believes there is fraud involved, then the merchant can call Visa (and store management) to verify fraud.
Most credit card companies have tips to avoid fraud.
And since not having any sort of ID or other credit card may be a signal to merchants of "fraud", then merchants have a little leeway
mom_of_three 11 years, 6 months ago
The merchant is supposed to verify the signature on the slip with the back of the card. If the card isn't signed, then a merchant can ask for valid ID, while the card is being signed (and most merchants won't make them sign the card).
It's when the signatures or names don't match when the fun begins. Visa doesn't require the name on the back of the card to match the embossed name. FUN, fun.
And yes, I used to work in point of sale in retail, and actually trained people on how to work the registers and accept credit cards. Discover has a few different rules than Visa and MC. But it's all about the money.
mom_of_three 11 years, 6 months ago
That's why it is sometimes wise to get a department store credit card, because retailers can make their own rules, including checking signatures and verification.
kansaskate 11 years, 6 months ago
I usually look at the name when I'm ringing someone out and I check the back to see if it says 'see ID.' I wasn't aware that it's supposed to be signed as well, I'm glad someone brought that up.
Something cashiers can do, simply as customer service, is pay attention to their actions. If they pull out their ID along with their card and you see it, be courteous and ask to see their ID. It makes the customer happy. I mean, EXTREMELY happy. Plus, if someone has a problem with you asking to see their ID, there's probably reason to be suspicious, anyway.
don_burgess 11 years, 6 months ago
Mr Ramirez - - -
I didnt think they allowed individuals of the hispanic persuasion in the west side. Very interesting...
Are you in the lawn care industry?
Please feel free to continue to dump your garbage in my neighborhood. I've found some real "gems" from nosing through the dumpsters and trash piles from the folks west of Massachusetts... It would save me the trip of heading over to your side of town for my loot.
bankboy119 11 years, 6 months ago
javery good point about KU...anybody know the answer to that?
Laura Watkins 11 years, 6 months ago
yeah, i'd also like to know the answer to javery's question about the extra charge for tuition...
lepchun 11 years, 6 months ago
Hey I know what let's just tell everyone how they can get away with using someone else's credit card and not get caught?
bytheway 11 years, 6 months ago
Here in Wichita all the stores EXCEPT Wal-Mart, Target, & Dillons ask for ID's. Everywhere else I go requires to show proof of identification. All that is fine to me since my purse was stolen along with my credit cards and stuff. The idiots went and spent like 300 bucks at Walmart and various other places. Spent 50 bucks on pizza at Pizza Hut. Talk about a nightmare.
butrflkisz 11 years, 6 months ago
I know one of the people accused of this crime and fortunately for him this was strike #4. He already has 3 previous charges of burglary which makes his sentencing for the break in September anywhere from 25 years to life in prison so this latest crime spree just topped it off for him so hopefully he can't get out of jail this time and will end up right where he needs to be.
Ghost78 11 years, 6 months ago
Lynnd and Marion-
I've worked with credit processors for many years as both a bank agent and a merchant processor, and I can tell you plainly that Visa/MC/Amex/Disc don't care about fraudulent purchases because it allows them to increase their risk assessment, funneling into a higher discount rate charge and in turn charging the merchant a higher percentage of every purchase. This increase in risk assessment also goes into place every time a card is entered manually instead of swiping, every time a corporate card is used, and every you use your card online or over the phone. The bottom line for the credit card companies is that they are selling convenience, and anything inhibiting convenience undermines their product. It makes more business sense for them to charge a higher prime rateoan ALL credit card transaction and use fraud as a scapegoat for the rate increase.
This is also a big factor in the fight between the banking industry and Walmart when our favorite retail outlet got the bright idea to open their own in-store banks and run their own credit card processing. The potential savings to Walmart and subsequent losses to existing processors if Walmart stopped paying out processing fees would be massive. I've rambled a bit here, but the bottom line is that the issue isn't about fraud prevention, its about billions of earnings every year.
lynnd 11 years, 6 months ago
ghost78- I am not surprised at all. Of course it's about the bottom line and the earnings each year, it's never about protecting the consumer.
I just think it's ridiculous that Visa et. al. are allowed to push the fraudulent charges back on the merchant who accepted them, instead of eating it themselves, when they won't "allow" the merchant to try to prevent fraudulent charges.
I do know that there are credit card companies that do watch for fraud; someone stole my husband's credit card number (not the card, just the number, they apparently created their own card with it) and tried to charge over $1000 at Best Buy. We were not even aware of it until my husband tried to use his card somewhere else, and it was denied. When we called in to find out what the problem was, we were directed immediately to a security dept, who stated that since the Best Buy charge attempt was "out of character" for us, they had required some type of ID verification from the cashier before the charge would go through. Obviously the thief couldn't provide this verification, so lucky for us we weren't charged. I was very grateful to this company, but of course they said that many customers scream and yell at them for the inconvenience.
Godot 11 years, 6 months ago
I know Susan, and she is waaayyy cool. She works very hard, and is available to her family when needed, or not.
Susan does not deserve any extra problems in her life.
Sorry this happened to you, Susan. You rank way better than these scumbags delivered to you.
pelliott 11 years, 6 months ago
hree Lawrence residents - Christina Marie Briggs, 23, Joey Gipson Jr., 29, and Richard E. Elston Jr., 30, all of 1309 N.J. - were arrested in the case.
this was interesting. I would love to know how this success was achieved. Video camera, snitch, stupidity. Alas the police don't consider, as the legislature, crime to persons, theft, to be serious. If they did, the few who do the many might do more time.
nbnozzy 11 years, 6 months ago
As previously stated, I always ask for ID when a customer wants to use a credit card. Visa be damned if I am going to risk my product being lost because of scam artists (Visa reimburses the card holder, not the merchant of loss). I also refuse to let anyone, wife or husband, use each others card. I once attended a seminar the Lawrence Police had and they stated that it is illegal for anyone to use a card that is not issued to them. So, my practice of ID'ing will continue. Visa knows where to pick up their machine if they want it.
badger 11 years, 6 months ago
When I worked in retail, it was always store policy to check sigs, and if there wasn't a sig then to check ID. Only one person ever threatened to 'take it to Visa' and I never heard a peep back on it.
I have my signature and "See ID" on the card. I get asked about half the time for my ID, and I always take a second to thank the clerk for asking. If I don't get asked and I'm not in a super hurry, I ask if it's store policy to ignore what's written on the back of the card. The response is usually a blank stare, but if in fact it is the store policy, I let them know I won't be shopping there again.
Marion, that link you posted doesn't say anywhere that a merchant can't deny a transaction if the signatures don't match. It says, "TIP: If you don't want to provide personal information on a credit card sales slip, you can refuse to do so. The merchant has no right to refuse you the sale (although unknowledgeable clerks may have no authority to vary from store policy). Further, if you refuse to present identification, such as a driver's license, the merchant may not refuse to make a credit card sale under Visa, MasterCard, and Amex rules."
Reading comprehension is our friend. The above statements mean that if you don't want that personal information written down on the slip, or to provide your telephone number, they can't refuse the sale for that reason, and they can't refuse the sale if you refuse to provide ID.
Cite an actual credible source, like Visa or MasterCard themselves, if you want to talk about their policies.
Like when visa.com says, "Don't volunteer any personal information when you use your credit card, other than by displaying personal ID as requested by a merchant," at this link:
http://www.usa.visa.com/personal/security/protect_yourself/basics/index.html?it=l2|%2Fpersonal%2Fsecurity%2Fprotect_yourself%2Fid_theft%2Ftheft_prevention%2Ehtml|Protection%20Basics
Also from visa.com, in their "Small Business and Merchants" section (pay close attention to the section on 'Dealing with Unsigned Cards'):
http://www.usa.visa.com/business/accepting_visa/ops_risk_management/card_present.html?it=c|%2Fbusiness%2Faccepting_visa%2Fops_risk_management%2Findex%2Ehtml|Card-Present
"Request a signature. Ask the cardholder to sign the card and provide current government identification, such as a driver's license or passport (if local law permits)."
Gosh, do I believe some website Marion put up, or the policies as stated on the company websites themselves?
I'm
sure
that's
a
tough
choice
for
everyone.
Thanks,
Badger
EvanstonReader 11 years, 6 months ago
I would bet the vast majority of you that are commenting about how stores need to ID credit cards more would be up at arms if the story were about an illegal immigrant that was denied purchasing something because they did not have ID. The problem with you bleeding heart Lawrence liberals is that everyone is a victim and which ever side someone takes you will always find fault, especially if it is a business.
badger 11 years, 6 months ago
Attacking you personally?
Marion/hilary, you paranoid much?
You said, and I am quoting directly, "A merchant may NOT deny any customer's credit card even WITHOUT matching ID.
The credit card companies consider such and action to be "discrimination" and mercahts who deny transactions risk losing their merchant accounts!"
That statement is patently false. You supported it with a link to some random 'NO OMG RLY THESE ARE TOTALLY THE RULEZ FOR TRANSACTIONS pRTECT YRSELF KTHXBAI!' website. I countered the above assertion, that merchants can't ask for ID and refuse transactions based on that, with a link to the relevant info from Visa. They advise consumers to present ID when it's requested, and merchants to request ID under certain circumstances. That's directly counter to your assertion that "A merchant may NOT deny any customer's credit card even WITHOUT matching ID."
I didn't reference Visa.com with regard to "See ID." I stated my personal practice or policy, and how I handle it.
You stated earlier that you do all your transactions on the Internet so you don't have to 'deal with people'. That suggests to me that you're doing 'Card Not Present' transactions, for which signature and ID rules don't actually apply. There are security codes (the three-digit number on the back of the card) and address protocols that are in place for 'Card Not Present' transactions, among some other things. So, even if you really do process 'thousands' of credit card transactions, the fact that you're doing it without actually seeing the people you're charging means that your self-proclaimed 'authority' with regard to merchants checking ID is worth about what it usually is.
And as for attacks? There's really no attack I could make that would defame you as much as a simple reading of your posts will do. Were I to aspire to make you look bad, I'd be completely outdone by your own efforts. But if you'd like me to satisfy that paranoid itch for you, here, have some:
Marion, I suppose I could assume you know what you're talking about but it would require overturning months of well and firmly established precedent, for no apparent reason at all other than your suggestion that I do so.
I decline to do so.
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