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Archive for Friday, December 9, 2005

Creationist plans run for education board

Fossil hunter hopes to unseat Wagnon in ‘08

December 9, 2005

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A fossil hunter who supports intelligent design will run for the Kansas State Board of Education seat now held by a defender of evolution.

"These evolutionists are saying that Jesus was half-chimpanzee, so was Mohammed and Buddha," said Alan Detrich, a 58-year-old Lawrence Republican who takes classes at Kansas University. "I don't think that's right."

He said he planned to challenge Bill Wagnon, the Topeka Democrat who represents parts of Douglas, Shawnee, Osage and Wabaunsee counties on the state board.

Wagnon is one of four board members who voted last month against new science standards that critique evolution using an intelligent design perspective.

Wagnon's seat isn't up for election until 2008.

"That's almost tempting enough for me to run for re-election," he said when told of Detrich's challenge. "But I'm not running for re-election."

"Good," Detrich responded. "I've already got him scared."

Detrich earned fame as a fossil hunter, unearthing a triceratops skull that was displayed at the Lawrence Public Library in the spring, and a Xiphactinus audax - known as an X-fish - that swam in the sea that covered western Kansas about 150 million years ago.

He moved to Lawrence about a year ago, to study at Kansas University and create religious sculptures made out of fossils, precious metals and bits of machinery.

Some of those works, along with his musings about "evil-lutionists," can be found at his Web site, spearofjesus.com.

Detrich said he was convinced that life is too complex to be the product of evolution, and that those beliefs will be the centerpiece of his three-year campaign.

"I want to get the question out, not the answer, but the question out," he said. "The question is the story of the rock and the clock. If you find a rock in a field, no big deal. If you find a clock in a field, you look around for who created it.

"Did we just appear like the rock? Or did it take intelligent design to make us?" Detrich asked. "I think it took intelligent design to make us."

Mainstream scientists overwhelmingly support the theory of evolution and reject intelligent design, which they say can't be scientifically tested. Detrich's early candidacy suggests the debate in Kansas won't quiet down anytime soon.

"These debates have been going on since Darwin wrote his book," Wagnon said. "They've never gone away, and they're not going to go away."

Even though the design viewpoint is now written into state education policy, Detrich feels his allies are still on the defense.

"The creationists, their side has not been told. It's simply been said they believe in God and that's wrong," he said. "If that's wrong, I'm wrong too."

Comments

Calliope877 8 years, 4 months ago

hobb2264,

"The theory of evolution does not speak to origins as far as I can tell, and origins is really all the Bible (Genesis) speaks to."

That opinion is based off faith, and you're entitled to it. :) My opinion is that faith should stay within the confines of the family unit. Faith doesn't have to be taught in schools if the foundation is already implanted by the parents. I think evolution is just as important. Evolution SHOULD be taught in schools as an alternative viewpoint about the origins of the human species. Parents should be comfortable with these alternative viewpoints if they have properly instilled their faith outside of the school. Faith is a private thing, and parents should have no reason to fear that the theory of evolution will corrupt their child's faith.

I was brought up with a very strict Christian father. He never argued with the theory of evolution because he knew that I had my own mind and I would come to my own conclusions as to what the "truth" was.

He knows that that I see things different, but he doesn't lecture me. He knows that it's between me and God, and he hasn't failed me by instilling this belief in God. I just don't follow the norm, and I don't think that's wrong. And I don't think anyone has the right to tell me it's wrong because they don't know anymore about God than I do...they're foolish if they think the do.

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

Calliope,

My personal feeling is that there are a lot of Christians out there who understand that taking formal prayer out of public schools does not hurt our children. I see it as my job to be the primary teacher to my children. The school system will fill in the blanks. I think it is this personal responsibility to our children that is really at the heart of this issue.

I also don't see why there has been such a huge fight against teaching of evolution. The theory of evolution does not speak to origins as far as I can tell, and origins is really all the Bible (Genesis) speaks to. As I said before, as long as origin is not taught in the science classroom, everyone should be hunky and/or dorey.

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LarryFarma 8 years, 4 months ago

Posted by Calliope877 on December 9, 2005 at 8:23 p.m. LarryFarma,

Please elaborate your definition of the "clod-hopper" image. I've never heard that term before in reference to Kansas.

The term "clodhopper" was used in a Lawrence Journal-World article titled, "Evolution debate may tarnish state's image," at --

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/nov/11/evolution_debate_may_tarnish_states_image/?evolution

The article said, "But Bader said: 'The clodhopper image was there long before Dorothy became popular.' "

The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines "clodhopper" as a "clumsy and uncouth rustic." My printed dictionary says it can mean "plowman" or "a clumsy, stupid person; lout." It can also mean "a large, heavy work shoe or boot."

Of course, any synonym, like "hick" or "bumpkin," could also be used.

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Calliope877 8 years, 4 months ago

LarryFarma,

Please elaborate your definition of the "clod-hopper" image. I've never heard that term before in reference to Kansas.

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Calliope877 8 years, 4 months ago

You know, I don't think any religion really has it right when it comes to the nature and agenda of God. I think we see just a glimpse, and that small glimpse fuels the fire for an individual to be a good person and do well unto others -- or it could fuel the fire of a psycho fanatic to do harm unto others who don't see the world as they do. But if you really think about it, all of the holy books in present day religion (the Torah, Kaballah, Bible, Koran) were written by human beings, and human beings are flawed. Whether you call it God, Allah, Yahweh, or the Higher Power, I think it's arrogance to believe that human beings are even capable of understanding the true nature of such a powerful entity if such an entity exists (and I for one, believe it does), and that such arrogance would be considered a blasphemy to that faith.

I think a powerful entity that is the creator and all knowing trying to explain its existance to mankind may be the equivalent of a human being trying to explain his/her existance to a clever rodent.

Of course, human beings are more intelligent than the cleverist of rodents (well, most of us are -- there's obviously a few exceptions), so I guess I don't understand why people in state offices are trying to infiltrate a belief system into public schools when faith is a very personal thing to those who seek it? And why try to force those who don't seek it into seeing the world the same way they do when we live in a Democracy and not a Theocracy. There's a big difference between the two.

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LarryFarma 8 years, 4 months ago

From post of Mr_Christopher, December 9, 2005 at 5:09 p.m.

Liesure Suit Larry Farma said -- "Instead of just moaning about Kansas's clodhopper image, Kansans should emphasize the positive things about Kansas, like the proud heritage of the aircraft industry of Wichita."

Translated: People should ignore the terrible state of science in Kansas and the backwards Board of Education and how the creationists are cleverly putting Intelligent Design in our schools while eroding science and just pretend it is not happening.

Mr. Christopher, I do not need a translation, nor do I need people putting words in my mouth. I was speaking only of Kansas's unfortunate clodhopper image, not about an alleged "terrible state of science in Kansas," which the Kansas ID-bashers are trying to associate with that clodhopper image for the purpose of bashing ID. The Kansas ID-bashers are hypocrites who claim that they care about the image of Kansas but they really don't -- they just exploit the state's clodhopper image in their ID-bashing campaign.

       Unfortunately,   I was not able to elaborate on my original statement above because of space limitations in the message.
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Calliope877 8 years, 4 months ago

"Did we just appear like the rock?"

Well, according to the Holy Bibile we spontaneously appeared out of the dust. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this could very well coincide with the theory of evolution which was recgonized by the Catholic church.

"I can't speak for the majority of Christians, but I can speak for myself. This is another reason why formalized school prayer is a bad idea. I do not want someone who has no idea about what the purpose of prayer is to lead my child (as of yet ot be born) in prayer. It just makes no sense." -by hobb

I really hope a majority of Christians out there are like you. I think the story of Creationism and prayer should stay at home. If parents want their children to learn about creationism, God, and prayer, they need to take the initiative to teach their children by taking them to church. Evolution being taught in public schools will not damage that child's faith if they are brought up right. Parents need to give their kids a little more credit. And if anything, the kids WILL hear both sides of the story by going to church AND learning about evolution in school.

It seems like a no-brainer to me.

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MadAnthony 8 years, 4 months ago

Boycott Narnia!!!!

Read the subversive and unintelligible ravings of CS Lewis....why the man was clearly into ID, at best, and may have even been a (shudder) creationist. Gawd help us, they are everywhere in history! Our founding fathers, almost all of the scientists prior to the French Revolution, most all great literature producers prior to the same, even our grandparents! Thanks be to god (er, make that ancient minerals) we have been liberated from all of that rot, much like the Russians by the 1918 Revolution.

We must, comrades, stand firm against ID theory, lest our beloved Kansas backslide into the superstition that ruled all previous generations prior to the golden age that broke, mechanistic modernity, in the 1900's. How do we stand firm? BOYCOTT NARNIA. lest our eyes be opened to the wonders of Aslan and we slip back into the wonder of a theocentric world view.

Wonkers of the world unite!

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pepper_bar 8 years, 4 months ago

i was afraid with no mirecki story today there wouldn't be a live wire thread... but this one brought game!

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LarryFarma 8 years, 4 months ago

From a post of observer, December 9, 2005 at 5:40 p.m.

Actually, Larry, the last thing I would ever highlight is Wichita. Granted the airline industry is great, but the the total nut case fundlies that inhabit it cancel out all the good. As you travel towards Wichita from either direction, you don't need road signs telling you are close. Just note the total fundies billbords screaming about all the fundie beliefs, Anti-abortion, etc, etc etc.

The aircraft industry in Wichita has fallen on hard times over the last few years, but at least it is still there, which is more than I can say of the aircraft industry in California. We in California can make fun of Kansas while we go to our lousy low-skill, low-paying service industry jobs while the people of Wichita go to their high-skill, high-paying aircraft industry jobs. I'd take Kansas any day.

By the way, though Wichita has airliner manufacturing, it is best known for manufacturers of small aircraft, like Cessna and Beech.

I suspect that the reason for the anti-abortion billboards near Wichita is that Wichita is the home of one of the few abortion clinics in the USA (I think that there are only three) that perform 3rd trimester abortions.

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observer 8 years, 4 months ago

Maybe those billboards are an effort to force their beliefs on others and maybe they simply show the ignorance of the people living there. Hate to smear a lot of good people there but if they let the fundies define them,that's their problem.

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

observer,

"Just note the total fundies billbords screaming about all the fundie beliefs, Anti-abortion, etc, etc etc"

Hmmm....I wonder if it is because of the multi-million dollar abortion industry that exists in Wichita. Maybe those billboards are a last ditch effort to remind the people of the seriousness of the act.

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

Christopher,

"And I think you will agree that the overwhelming majority of Christians do not want science teachers trying to teach their children about God, creationism, faith, etc."

I can't speak for the majority of Christians, but I can speak for myself. This is another reason why formalized school prayer is a bad idea. I do not want someone who has no idea about what the purpose of prayer is to lead my child (as of yet ot be born) in prayer. It just makes no sense.

Anyway, this has been a good discussion. I really don't think that this is that divided of an issue among the majority of Kansans. As I see it, the BOE will be overturned in the next election, and the standards will be thrown out. The X-fish guy will not get elected--especially if he is running in a district that contains any part of Lawrence. The LJW will keep beating us senseless with this "controversy", until we finally all admit that no one is going to change their minds....then the LJW will give us a few stories about roundabouts, SLT, or fruitcake (and the cycle begins again). The only constant is that wendt will continue to be his sarcastic, cynical self... :-)

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observer 8 years, 4 months ago

Actually, Larry, the last thing I would ever highlight is Wichita. Granted the airline industry is great, but the the total nut case fundlies that inhabit it cancel out all the good. As you travel towards Wichita from either direction, you don't need road signs telling you are close. Just note the total fundies billbords screaming about all the fundie beliefs, Anti-abortion, etc, etc etc. Why is Wichita home to so many fundie legislators? That is not something to be proud of. By the way, you're from California, you've got enough nutcases of your own. Arnie and the recall process top the list. In other words, f**k off and mind your own business

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

And the book of leviticus is basically a slave owners manual...

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KWCoyote 8 years, 4 months ago

There's a theological problem with ID. It is that conservative Christian theology demands a perfect creation so there can be a Fall of Man (into sin) which then requires a sacrificial savior (Jesus). If fundies had ID as a scientific orthodoxy, they still wouldn't be happy and would have to throw it out in favor of hocus-pocus creation so they could claim that the Fall of Man occurred. GWithout that, conservative Christian theology makes no sense. And ya know, it really doesn't.

Forgiveness is important, the mark of a saint, right? So God can't forgive that Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Or any other human failings or meanness since that mythical event? So God demands payment in blood and death for his hard-heartedness? So Jesus demanded that people be more kind-hearted and forgiving than God? There are so many logical holes in this brand of theology, not to mention factual points, that it's entirely understandable how fundies have a problem with science.

While I'm more dissatisfied with the claims of conservative Christianity than it's polite to say, it could be noted that Jesus' preaching was probably a protest of the harsh judgmental moralism and hate-the-poor, blame-the-victim popular Judaism of his day, with views more like the Taliban than like modern Judaism. I also think that all the works of St. John should be removed from the Bible as they simply don't fit the main points of the reformist preaching of Jesus. In particular, the Revelation of St. John, like the book of Daniel, is just plain propaganda.

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

Liesure Suit Larry Farma said

"Instead of just moaning about Kansas's clodhopper image, Kansans should emphasize the positive things about Kansas, like the proud heritage of the aircraft industry of Wichita."

Translated:

People should ignore the terrible state of science in Kansas and the backwards Board of Education and how the creationists are cleverly putting Intelligent Design in our schools while eroding science and just pretend it is not happening. Hey look at all the pretty snow! Why talk about creationists who want religion taught in school when we have all these cool aircraft facilities!

ps. Hey larry, you should apply to be Dietrich's campaign manager. I bet you'd get the job and I bet he'd win. Seriously.

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yourworstnightmare 8 years, 4 months ago

I like the FSM/Cthulhu ticket.

Although, if I was the FSM I would be watching my back during my entire administration.

Yog Sothoth would be just what we need in Iraq; it could be Secretary of Defense.

The Necronomicon could be the party platform, and the campaign could kick off at Miskatonic University.

Oh, save us Great Race...

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

hobb2664 says

"Well, one science teacher dogmatically preaching atheism is just as bad as a science teacher teaching Genesis. "

Hobb, I agree with you completely. A science teacher should not address issues of faith one way or another, that is beyond the scope of science and it is simply wrong in my opinion for any public school teacher to push a child in either direction. Wrong wrong wrong. When it comes to a child's faith (or a lack thereof) it is best taught from home and not a public school.

I think most anyone would agree that when a science teacher starts talking about faith or a lack thereof they are outside the scope of their responsibility and bordering on recruitment or evangelizing. Clearly not the role or responsibility of public education.

"To bring up a concept such as Creation in the science classroom was frowned upon because it is a philosphical argument"

Creationism is viewed first and foremost as religious concepts and not science or or philosophy and we have laws that forbid goverment /public schools teaching religion.

Personally I do not want a science teacher teaching my children about creationism, religion, or atheism (or creationism in sheeps clothing - "ID"). Not in science class.

At a university level I think teaching creationism is fine in philosophy or religion class.

And I think you will agree that the overwhelming majority of Christians do not want science teachers trying to teach their children about God, creationism, faith, etc.

Now if a christian does not want their children to learn about evolution they will either have to home school them and use Of Pandas and People as a science text (as most Christians home schoolers do) or send them to a Christian school that does not teach evolution or one that uses of Pandas and People.

Of course keeping a child from learning about evolution guarantees making their child scientifically illiterate, at least in biology, but I suppose they have the "right" to do that...

That is a whole other debate....Do parents have the right to make their children illiterate in biology for religious reasons? A debate I have no interest in :-) I plan for MY children to be very astute in the sciences (including biology) and I am not concerned whether people want to raise theor children to be ignorant in biology or not.

Oh and I plan on teaching my children about ID, if ID is still an issue when they reach that age. We'll use ID as a means of teaching them how to spot bull sh**. How to look up and research what the ID folks are proposing and how to spot their misinformation, distortions, etc.

Anyhow, for what it is worth, your atheist science teacher who was recruiting you for atheism was out of line. But you didn't need me to tell you that.

creationism is not a philosophical argument, it is a religious one. Yet I think it would be fine to discuss it in a p

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

Christopher,

I think I should clarify. First of all, I think for the most part that high school science teachers are competent enough to address this issue without offending anyone's particular beliefs, however my high school experience was quite different. At the time I was not a Christian and was heavily influenced by her bias against Christianity. I have since had the opportunity to examine the facts and think for myslef. However, had I known then what I know now, I proabably would have filed a complaint. Like most kids that age I saw my science teacher as an elder and wise person...

You said, "not to be rude, but big deal". Well, one science teacher dogmatically preaching atheism is just as bad as a science teacher teaching Genesis. Neither are right or justified. I have a feeling that if the latter case had occurred, YOU would fervently stand up against the act. But most people tend to ignore the former...It's no big deal, right....

I will be honest, I have not cracked a high school science textbook in over 10 years. I know that when I was in high school, it was perfectly fine to discuss concepts such as the big bang theory and the "natural" origins of life because these are "scientific" discussions. To bring up a concept such as Creation in the science classroom was frowned upon because it is a philosphical argument. Does this not seem like a double-standard to you? Science can not prove (or disprove) either explanation of origins.

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LarryFarma 8 years, 4 months ago

Posted by fossilhunter, December 9, 2005 at 1:47 p.m.

where's Larry??

Glad to know I was missed. LOL

Here are some of the doomsday predictions about the effects of the Kansas school board's new science standards regarding intelligent design --

(1) High-tech companies will not want to establish facilities in Kansas

(2) Kansas graduates will find it difficult to be admitted to out-of-state universities or be hired for scientific or technological jobs by out-of-state employers

      If these predictions were accurate,  then the graduates of K-12 religious schools -- particularly evangelical schools -- would be suited only for higher education in a seminary,  or maybe just a major in the humanities at a regular university.     However,  these graduates apparently are prepared to study science at the university level.

      The following quotes are from websites that discuss the rejection of religious secondary-school science textbooks by reviewers at the University of California --

http://www.cccsmurrieta.com/secondary/wsj.asp says --

--- The university sends out a form letter to any school that proposes to teach biology and physics using one of the two biggest Christian textbooks now in circulation. The courses that assign such books, the letter claims, will not be "consistent with the viewpoints and knowledge generally accepted in the scientific community." Students thus "may not be well prepared for success" in the university's science courses. Chris Patti, the university's general counsel, tells me that the textbooks have many "scientific errors" and the "biggest one is [the way they describe] evolution. Such a statement is itself far from rigorous. The physics textbook is like any other -- with pure science in it -- except that a verse from Scripture stands at the head of each chapter. Barbara Sawrey, a chemistry professor at the San Diego campus, who advised the university on this matter, told Burt Carney, the school association's legal-affairs director, that the verse appearances alone were enough to disqualify the textbook. (Talk about biased.)[comment in original] As for the biology textbook, it is certainly true that it includes a presentation of creationism and intelligent design, but it presents evolution as well, straightforwardly. ----

      http://www.cccsmurrieta.com/elementary/pdfs/lawsuitoverview.pdf says (on page 3) ---

---- When asked whether poor college performance by students from religious schools prompted the rejection of the textbooks, UC representatives responded negatively. They also acknowledged that UC did not have any objective evidence that students from religious schools are deficient in science when they arrive for their freshman year of college. ----

Instead of just moaning about Kansas's clodhopper image, Kansans should emphasize the positive things about Kansas, like the proud heritage of the aircraft industry of Wichita.

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Ragingbear 8 years, 4 months ago

Vote for the Flying Spagetti Monster, running mate Cthulu 08'.

The FSM will embrace you with his noodly appendage. If you don't like that. Cthulu will devour your soul.

Other perks of this presidency: Loosening of a moral code : Legalize Oregeno Removal of all religios barriers. Worship Cthulu or be devoured. Actually, he may devour you anyway.

FSM is smarter than Bush. Cthulu is more Evil than Cheney.

Both have noodle or tentacle like appendages.

Free beer fountains, more strippers, and the occassional gateway into the plane of eternal destruction for all.

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

Hobb2264 said

"I just didn't want you (or anyone else) to think that the everyday Christian is a complete idiot."

That would be a mistaken and wrong conclusion. Yet I know some people belive it, hey some people believe ID is scientific, we can't keep people from making groundless conclusions. I certainly know everyday christians are not idiots (complete or partial).

" I think for the most part, Christians just feel like scientists and science teachers, especially those in biology, are trying to make the claim that there is no God"

And note that an irrational sense of persecution is often the cultural currency of many christians, it gives them purpose and sense of community (us against them).

A reasonable response to an unreasonable claim (s"cience says there is no god") would be "faith and God are outside the scope of science. End of discussion. I mean who cares if someone thinks there is no god?

I do not see science teachers telling children there is no god. Most wisely sidestep the issue (when questioned by a student) and point them to theior own family for answers.

" (I have personal experience with this). For the most part, I know this to not be true (although I have encountered notable exceptions in my time)."

Well, not to seem rude but big deal. Someone tells you something you do not agree with or find objectionable. Welcome to the real world and adulthood. In this situtaion you simply have to agree to disagree. And scientists and even nutcases have the same freedom of speech rights that christians do.

Look if you think everyone on the planet is going to adopt or even respect your ideas you are in for a very difficult life.

Someone says there is no god? Disagree with them and move on down the road.

If a public school teacher is teaching children there is no god then you have an issue of them teaching something that is clearly not in the science curriculum. Complain about it. Tell them to knock it off.

You know, people seem to forget that just because someone says there is no god doesn't mean you have to abandon your belief in god. you can always disagree or ignore their ideas.

Pat Robertson says I am going to hell and I am a terrorist sympathizer. Well I can cry and moan about it or I can write him off as a nutcase and go on about my life.

Same principle applies to your arguement.

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

Yeah not ALL evangelical christians are dupes or are scientifically illiterate. But that is generally the group that the discovery (dishonesty) institute appeals to and seeks support from (the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell crowd).

I mean, just look at the most visible ID supporters in the state of Kansas, starting with the Board of Education, hardly the kind of people who seek to advance science or even understand what science is and is not. In my book they are misguided dupes of the Discovery (dishonesty) Institute.

And let's not forget most scientists are in fact believers (in God) so again not ALL believers (evangelical or otherwise) are anti-science.

The fact that the ID theory is nonsense does not mean a God does not exist. It simply means ID theory is nonsense and from a scientific standpoint, not scientific. ID is OBVIOUSLY recycled creationism.

But ID is also obviously a cash cow for many people, and an opportunity for a power grab for people such as the nutcase in this article..

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citizenx 8 years, 4 months ago

That's a beautiful X-fish specimen Detrich found. Amazing. ID proponent or not, he deserves several million. I know it will probably fund his campaign (campaign of evil), but the value of a find like that can't be denied.

Um, and how exactly does he find fossils that are hundreds of millions years old and then say the universe is a mere 6,000 years old? Or does he say that? I thought ID believers also don't believe in geological time...I could be wrong...

By the way, IDers are NOT the least educated among us. Sadly, many of them are getting degrees in molecular biology and geology at KU. I know this to be true, and it's scaring the $hit out of me. This is not over--it won't be, until these freaks are designing the science curriculums. Yes, they are freaks. Yes, they will use their qualifications to design curricula. Their 'evidence' that ID is scientific? The gap in the fossil record. This is a crazy way to 'prove' something. They ignore most of the real evidence for evolution, either saying that it doesn't exist or not mentioning it at all.

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fossilhunter 8 years, 4 months ago

very well said Miyagi. I like your phrase "world view" because if you ascribe to ID, it really should become your world view.

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Miyagi_Rules 8 years, 4 months ago

I just wanted to point out that not all Christians, even evangelical Christians, are complete idiots. While I certainly agree with you Mr. Christopher that there is a "herd" mentality within the evangelical church and that a large number of people just believe what their pastors tell them to believe, there are several of us who still believe in the power of critical thinking.

Frankly, it is through critical thinking that I've arrived at a point where I question evolutionary theory and feel that there is mounting evidence that points to a creator. Not just evidence from biology, but also from cosmology, astronomy, and meta-physics that point to a world that is marked by 'Intelligent Design.'

That being said I in no way feel that ID or Creationism should be taught in public school, because I classify ID as more of a worldview than science. Certainly, it appropriates ideas from science to support itself, but it is not testable or falsifiable. Like any other religious belief it requires faith and a certain sacrifice of the intellect, because we cannot PROVE God.

ID has obvious religious implications that should be discussed in churches, homes, and other private venues where people are interested in learning about it, but not in public schools. There is a HUGE danger whenever we start mixing religious belief with public institutions.

Just my 2 cents.

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

Kodiak,

It just goes to show you that your mind can play tricks on you. I read that quote four times and each of the first three times I read it the same way....until I read it the fourth time (after you pointed it out to me). I hate it when that happens.

Christopher,

Thanks for the clarification. I just didn't want you (or anyone else) to think that the everyday Christian is a complete idiot. I think for the most part, Christians just feel like scientists and science teachers, especially those in biology, are trying to make the claim that there is no God (I have personal experience with this). For the most part, I know this to not be true (although I have encountered notable exceptions in my time).

The fundametalists just tend to go too far sometimes. I appreciate their fervor, but unfortunatley it typically goes to waste and makes them look pretty bad.

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fijeseque 8 years, 4 months ago

Silly evil-lutionist carbon dating was soooo yesterday's trend

Literal interpretation and retro-thinking is back this season...

Common sense will tell you that the earth's flat. If it were round like those pesky scientist tell us we'd all fall off unless we lived at the North Pole.

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

Kodiak,

Oops...need to check my eyes... :-) Thanks for the correction.

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

hobb2264 - I mean the folks who support (believe in and promote) the ID theory promoted by the Discovery (dishonesty) Institute. The folks who despise evolution/science.

The Pat Roberston crowd. The folks the DI peddles their nonsense to. Those who think of Pandas and People is science...

This includes mostly fundamentalist evangelical christians. The least educated of all religious groups.

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Kodiac 8 years, 4 months ago

Hey Hobb2264,

"Better check your units on this one (or take a History of the Bible course). I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't on earth 120,000 years ago. "

You better check your brain. You need to redo your calculations buddy.

How does 33 x 60 = 120000. Think about it.

"Also, I had always learned in my geology coursework that the earth was around 4.6 byo...but hey, what's a couple billion between friends, right. ;-)"

Hobb you need to reread nightmare's post - when he said that evidence of life on this planet stretches back 3 billion years or more, he wasn't talking about the age of the planet......

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

"ID supporters tend to be the least educated and most easily manipulated population"

Christopher,

What does it mean to be a "supporter" of ID? Do you mean a supporter of the political movement or a supporter of the idea that there is an "intelligent designer" (God) out there?

Just curious....

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DuQuesne 8 years, 4 months ago

I'm not an astronomer, but I have a telescope - just in case. There's 'way too much outdoor lighting to permit much stargazing here any more, but I have new neighbors next door and . . . .more about that later. Back to my point I have an intellectual understanding of the time scale VoijaRisa refers to, but I don't think most people can really APPRECIATE the time scale involved in phenomena like geology and evolution. It's just plain outside our direct-experience frame of reference to be able to deal with anything with a duration longer than the interval between TV commercials or physical distances longer than a parking space. Or, for some, words with more than one syllable. And no, I don't know why "syllable" has so many syllables. -Schuyler DuQuesne

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

You're an astronomer?

OMIGOD that's so cool! I'm a Pisces with a Taurus rising and my moon in Scorpio! Should I move to Bimini to work with polar bears or open a line of cannibalism-themed restaurants?

runs

Hey, wendt?

Actually, you said, "Plus you saw it first, it's yours." That makes it mine, so get yer grubby paws off my poison beer.

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

Although the question was not directed at me, I think this guy and many others are simply realizing what the Discovery Institute figured out long ago - ID supporters tend to be the least educated and most easily manipulated population. ID is a cash cow and can be a stepping stone to power and money. A seat on the school board is one example.

The Discovery (dishonesty) Institute has been around for years, they currently have a 4 million dollar annual budget. Yet they have never provided any scientific evidence to support the ID "theory" yet they are a thriving institution with major financial supporters.

They publish and sell scores of books and videos, heck they were all making between $100-200 (Demski charged $200) an hour to defend ID at the Dover trial (none of the plaintiff's expert witnesses charged a dime).

In short, ID is a cash and opportunity cow. I think we'll see more like this guy who are simply cashing in on the opportunity to accumulate money and or power from ignorant ID supporters/cultists.

Evangelicals hate anything that contradicts the bible, obviously science contradicts the creation myth. They will blindly lend their support and give their money to anyone who throws stones at science.

They also thrive on fear and a sense of persecuation and they believe science persecutes them (they also believe Sears and Target persecute them too) so getting support from ignorant and uninformed evangelicals is not rocket "science" :-)

This guys is just another ID opportunist who know how to manipulate the uninformed and ignorant evangelical masses. I bet he gets quite a bit of support for his run for the schol board seat.

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hobb2264 8 years, 4 months ago

From above:

"A mental exercise:

Think of one year as one second of real time....

Jesus lived 33 minutes ago."

Better check your units on this one (or take a History of the Bible course). I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't on earth 120,000 years ago. Also, I had always learned in my geology coursework that the earth was around 4.6 byo...but hey, what's a couple billion between friends, right. ;-)

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VoijaRisa 8 years, 4 months ago

---"Since when do religious beliefs qualify someone for office?"--- It's gotten Bush elected twice.

---"Can this guy say evil-lutionist and ape-iest without taking heat? Hmm, should we question this guys credentials and get offended by his comments about individuals who believe in evolution? Fundies or Evil-lutionists? Isn't that name calling also? I guess that I ask too many questions right?"--- I actually pointed this out in a letter to the editor that I wrote to KU's paper last week and was published on Tuesday. It's wonderful to see that Mirecki gets blasted for comments that are directed towards a very specific group, yet people like this can use terms like "evilutionist", "fag enabler", "heathen", "crypto-nazi", etc... and get away with it just fine. Makes me even more sure that Mirekci's case has just been a witch hunt.

---"The "finding a clock" analogy I have heard over and over from IDers."--- It's one of their favourite arguments. It's called the watchmaker argument and is well over 100 years old. It actually fails because complexity is a poor determination of design. A snowflake is complex, but we know that can form easily through natural processses.

---"Does anyone, creationist or scientist, have any real conception of this length of time?"--- As an astronomer, I'll say that I have a working understanding, but I'm frequently dealing with things that are on the order of billions of years, which is a number that, while I can use easily, it hard to really wrap my head around.

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DuQuesne 8 years, 4 months ago

This "candidate" is a living example of why it's so hard to convince the ID crowd of the validity of natural selection. If too many individuals in any population possess attributes which are not survival attributes (idiocy, stupidity, general moronic behavior, nonspecific dumbassedness), and they are allowed to breed before those non-survival attributes remove them from the gene pool, then ... Well, you see the difficulty. -Schuyler DuQuesne

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

If you find a beer in the field, drink it.

It might be poison and you would be saving the life of anyone who happened along and might accidently drink it.

Plus you saw it first, it's yours.

Get away,.........I said "It's mine!".....Go Away, I'm saving your life, leave me alone.

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

Hey, I need read no further. He's got my vote!!

This guy makes Abrams & Morris look good and that's hard to do.

Maybe that's the strategy. Look for a third candidate emerging to oppose Wagnon,... crazy as a loon, but not AS crazy as this idiot.

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

Oh, and just a note:

If I find a human in a field, I go looking for a pulse, not a watchmaker or his biological human ancestors.

I also hope said human has pants, because frankly I've seen just one too many pantsless people wandering around in a field, looking a little confused and faintly embarrassed.

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

Prospector and Schuyler-

snort

Lovely.

I ask myself, is it possible this guy is a parody? That he's doing this to be just as outrageous and ridiculous as he possibly can?

Or is he just a loony?

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

Hey this is from his website:

"spear-it (spirit)

evil-utionist = ape-iest = malarki-ologist

a "scientist" sighs... then tests

... there are NO PERKS in purgatory

Life is a short story with a L o n g e n d i n g."

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

"If you find a rock in a field, no big deal. If you find a clock in a field, you look around for who created it."

That is why ID is not science and ID cultist look so dumb. They ignore the natural evidence (rocks, etc) and use man made objects as the basis of their "theory" of biology.

If you find a human in a field you don't go looking for a watch maker, you look for the humans biological ancestor(s).

Doh!

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

There are good posts and then there are great posts.

That was a great post, Schuyler.

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prospector 8 years, 4 months ago

After I viewed his website, I am sorry I questioned his education.

A masters in Fine Art, a maker of none.

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

Jesus was into swords, remember? I think the spear thing means the spear they shot into the Tortured One's side, no?

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Kodiac 8 years, 4 months ago

Fossilhunter, I think you should keep your name and sue LJW for slander and use of your name without permission.

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Kodiac 8 years, 4 months ago

Where are our usual ID crowd...Hmmm I wonder if Mr Detrich has them scared already as well....

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Kodiac 8 years, 4 months ago

Still laughing DuQuense. I guess that means I going to burn in hell as well....

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DaREEKKU 8 years, 4 months ago

I really feel that people with blatent disrespect (and lack of objectivity!) for the field they are running for should not be allowed to run. At least Mirecki would have taught the subject objectively! as he is known to do with his other classes* This country was not founded on Christian principles, what a selfish idea! I thought Christians were supposed to tout humbleness? Even more of a reason to be athiest.....BLAH!

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DuQuesne 8 years, 4 months ago

Jesus' last words were actually, "Paul, I can see your house from up here." Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Please stop me before I blaspheme more. -Schuyler DuQuesne

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DuQuesne 8 years, 4 months ago

Oh. My. Gawd. Mr. Peepers is off his leash again. Further proof that creationists cannot evolve, regardless the amount of environmental selective pressure. And oh, yes there will be pressure and it will be selective. -Schuyler DuQuesne

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Herding_Cats 8 years, 4 months ago

wendt:

You broke the response borders! That must be due to your wicked, evil-lutionist powers. I cast thee into the chilling Kansas snow to cleanse you!

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

Damn, I can't type this morning.....

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

Let's see.....

Clark Kent is taken.

Flea is taken.

Page Hamilton is taken.

Dosen't_have_to_be_dressed_by_a_third_party_in_the_morning_like_some_creationists is available!!!

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fossilhunter 8 years, 4 months ago

I was thinking more of "irreduciblycomplexobjecthunter"

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prospector 8 years, 4 months ago

fossilhunter

I suggest you change to "watchhunter".

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

"Spear of Jesus"???

"Spear" used to be a euphemism for "penis" in pulp fiction books.

Besides, Jesus was a nunchuku freak. Peter was into spears.

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prospector 8 years, 4 months ago

fossilhunter

"The ID backers are probably lined up trying to push him back into the closet."

Is this the same closet that Corkins is having his "meet the people" in?

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fossilhunter 8 years, 4 months ago

Mr_C...Some of that art is kind of scary...

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fossilhunter 8 years, 4 months ago

Oooo - it just dawned on me that he calls himself a fossilhunter. I feel kind of yucky. I may have to change my screen name....

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

Go to his web site, some of it is a hoot! I laffed and laffed.

This is actually good news and I hope more like him come out of the closet and onto the playing field. A few more like this on the front page of the paper and every person with more than two brain cells will be sick to death of intelligent design, the Discovery Institute, and ignorant evangelicals in general.

The back lash will be sweet to watch.

It is too funny to witness the kind of ignorant, scientifically illiterate morons Intelligent Design attracts meanwhile listening to the Discovery Institute and other ID cult members insist ID is science.

Funny funny funny. Kind of sad too, I suppose, but I'd rather laff than cry!

Hey look at me I am half ape half man!

Banana! Give me banana! I want banana!

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fossilhunter 8 years, 4 months ago

You know, actually having this guy come to the forefront in favor of ID may be the best thing that could possibly happen for us critical thinkers that appreciate true science. He seems to have a track record of very poor political performance/decision making. The ID backers are probably lined up trying to push him back into the closet.

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bige1030 8 years, 4 months ago

So are we really trying to get an F- for our science standards or what?

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prospector 8 years, 4 months ago

Silence-Dogood

"And how can someone be both a "fossil hunter" and a champion of ID? Don't his own findings cancel out the latter?"

You would think.

Did you know that the fossils we find are only the proof of the "great flood"? That is what Jerry Falwell and these IDers say.

Oh, so the flood drowned the fish???????

YUCK YUCK YUCK

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

Hey, Alan, the chimps called.

They'd like their half of your DNA back.

Honestly, craigers, I would think the whole ID debate itself makes creationists look bad. To me it says, "We're so insecure in our faith that we need science and science classes to validate our worldview, instead of simply believing in it ourselves and not requiring that everyone else accept it for it to be valid and relevant."

I believe some things science can neither explain nor fully disprove. But you don't see me out there demanding that the possibility that magic might exist should be taught as an explanation for particle physics in addition to electron theory, just because electron theory is 'only' a theory, do ya?

Most of the pagans I know would be horribly embarrassed by me if I did that, just like most of the Christians I know are embarrassed by the rabid segment of the ID contingent.

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Silence_Dogood 8 years, 4 months ago

And the idiocy in Kansas continues. What will it be tomorrow?

Now, as a flaming liberal, my feathers are ruffled because of his scandalous site that calls "liberals"--because most Kansans can't seem to think, like their president, beyond black and white--"evil-lutionists." How can I go about getting him to not run? Maybe I can get Dr. Mirecki to help me. And, if I don't get my way, or even if I get my way, I think I could just wait on a country road for him in my big Ford F-150.

And how can someone be both a "fossil hunter" and a champion of ID? Don't his own findings cancel out the latter?

Way to go.

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craigers 8 years, 4 months ago

I'm glad this creationist is giving us a good name. Not. That analogy is stupid to me and I believe in creationism.

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Mr_Christopher 8 years, 4 months ago

I bet a shiny quarter larry farma will be his election campaign manager!

And i bet this bozo wins too. Any time you appeal to a base ignorance like this guy does you're going to get a lot of evangelical votes.

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bobberboy 8 years, 4 months ago

Alan, the evolutionists don't say anything of the sort. The only person that if half chimpanzee is you. P.S. The other half of you is a baboon.

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yourworstnightmare 8 years, 4 months ago

"The question is the story of the rock and the clock. If you find a rock in a field, no big deal. If you find a clock in a field, you look around for who created it. Did we just appear like the rock? Or did it take intelligent design to make us? I think it took intelligent design to make us."

So, God created living things but not rocks?

The "finding a clock" analogy I have heard over and over from IDers. This is a very poor analogy for many obvious reasons (e.g. clocks are not living creatures which can self-propagate).

ID supporters tend to dimiss entirely the concept of time; that evidence of life on this planet stretches back 3 billion years or more. Does anyone, creationist or scientist, have any real conception of this length of time?

A mental exercise:

Think of one year as one second of real time.

By this scale: The first evdience of single-celled life was 95 years ago.

The first evidence of multicellular life was 15 years ago.

Dinosaurs have been extinct for nearly 2 years.

Apes and hominids diverged about 115 days ago.

Homo erectus left Africa about 12 days ago.

Agriculture was invented about 2.7 hours ago.

Jesus lived 33 minutes ago.

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mason_powell 8 years, 4 months ago

Can this guy say evil-lutionist and ape-iest without taking heat? Hmm, should we question this guys credentials and get offended by his comments about individuals who believe in evolution? Fundies or Evil-lutionists? Isn't that name calling also? I guess that I ask too many questions right?

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one_more_bob 8 years, 4 months ago

This guy is a comedy writer's dream come true. "Here, you can have my fossil, but only if you give me a $10 million tax deduction!"

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prospector 8 years, 4 months ago

This guy was a antique (junk) dealer in Great Bend before he found his calling, fossils hunting. He should stick to what he knows.

He either has spent to much time in the sun on his digs or is doing his artwork in an unventilated room.

How much edumacation does this guy have? Yes, I meant to misspell that. Will he disclose his transcript? Other than tripping over, digging up, and selling fossils for big bucks, what does he know that qualifies him for this?

A student at KU now? I can not believe he would attend this heathen godless school. He should take some Geology courses and see the light. A freight train bearing down on him.

The statement by Bill Wagnon was that he was not running for re-election has nothing to do with this guy. Alan, the three years you have to run will give you plenty of time to learn that the job you seek is to educate the children of this state so that we do not continue to get F's for our crazy notions. You are not qualified. Period

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Eudora_Smitty 8 years, 4 months ago

Uh...Jesus=half-chimp. I'm pretty sure that the other day, when I fell and hit my head on the ice, that Jesus appeared to me and he was definitely not half-chimp. It was more like 1/4-Mountain Gorilla, 1/4-Dinosaur; 1/4-Son of God, about 1/4-Ultra-Conservative and possibly a smattering of either Muencher's Apple Fritters or one of those truffle cakes they have.

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Herding_Cats 8 years, 4 months ago

"These evolutionists are saying that Jesus was half-chimpanzee, so was Mohammed and Buddha"

Well, that's just wrong. 99% of the DNA between humans and chimps is identical, not 50%.

"I've already got him (Wagnon) scared."

Wow. How arrogant can you get?

"The creationists, their side has not been told. It's simply been said they believe in God and that's wrong," he said. "If that's wrong, I'm wrong too."

And the hits just keep comin'. The creatonists' side has been told for a couple thousand years at least. And it's pretty straight-forward too. I think most of us have heard it. And how many of you "evil-lutionists" have been saying that creationists and ID'ers are wrong simply because of the God factor?

All of you, I bet wink

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dirkleisure 8 years, 4 months ago

This needs to be stressed again and again - his quote says all you need to know about the ID crowd:

"Did we just appear like the rock? Or did it take intelligent design to make us?" Detrich asked. "I think it took intelligent design to make us."

Sir - if it took intelligent design to make "us," then it also took intelligent design to make the rock.

If you don't believe that, then you don't believe in intelligent design, which means you don't believe in yourself.

Sounds like ID needs to be taught not in science classes, not in religion classes, but in Psych classes.

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

I remember when Benny had this airfoil on the top of his head. He's gotten rid of it, but I still appreciate how he goes for the "I'm an Indian mystic too!" symbolism / vibe, with the Nehru jackets and the cadence of his language.

I saw the airfoil on television at a hotel room in Ozark MO. I about peed my pants.

I gotta find a picture of it. I'll find one and post it.

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yourworstnightmare 8 years, 4 months ago

This is good news. Let this guy run and air his views.

If the voters of Kansas like what they see, then this state is in more trouble than even I thought.

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fossilhunter 8 years, 4 months ago

Sorry, Wendt - I forgot about that. That makes all the difference!

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badger 8 years, 4 months ago

I...

I...

falls over laughing

I'm an evil-lutionist!

Oook! Oook!

Yeah, you know, if there was one guy like this in every city, state, and federal election, the campaigns would be a lot more interesting.

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

fossil hunter:

But had your Xiphactinus been blessed by Benny Hinn???

Washed in the blood of the lamb? And subsequently cleaned to get the yucky blood off. (Normal Saline and/or H2O2 work nicely).

me first:

One subject seems to work for the Christians.

A vote for me is a vote for Christ!!! A vote against me is a vote for HELL!!! You don't wanna go to Hell, do you??

Corkins had no education background, unless you count lobbying against funding for education.

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classclown 8 years, 4 months ago

Posted by Bowhunter99

The only school where ID whould be taught is in SUNDAY SCHOOL

The problem with that is there are not enough children in Sunday School to push ID on due to the fact that their parents are either:

A) Too lazy to take their kids to church to learn the word of god B) Heathens C) Not the right kind of christian (or perhaps misguided) and go to the wrong kind of church.

Making religion part of the curriculum of public schools makes for a larger captive audience to impose their views on.

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fossilhunter 8 years, 4 months ago

He's a maroon....he tried to "donate" a Xiphactinus fossil to the state in return for a tax writeoff -- $10 million! Hell, I have a better one in my basement.

pssst - Alan, ID is not religious. You're not sticking to the script.

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a_flock_of_jayhawks 8 years, 4 months ago

Boy, this place has whack jobs coming out of the woodwork. classclown makes a salient point: the fundies have no fear of repercussions or accountability for spewing their fire and brimstone speeches with their shots spread across a wide group.

They've really taken their purported "mandate" from the last couple of elections way out there. I hope voters come forth to get this car back on the right road.

Bowhunter99 is spot on.

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mefirst 8 years, 4 months ago

So his entire campaign will be based on one issue, grounded in his religion beliefs? Since when do religious beliefs qualify someone for office?

What the hell does he know about education? There's not ONE mention of how this man is qualified for the job. Another glaring example of how the media plays right into their hands.

Hey Joel, next time ask a pointed question or two...get to the heart of the matter. Isn't that your job???

I'm tire of this silly game.

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Bowhunter99 8 years, 4 months ago

Let him run for office... That way we can defeat him AND the rest of the lunatics now in office in order to send a clear message... Just like they did in PA. Get rid of every single one of those religious freaks.

The only school where ID whould be taught is in SUNDAY SCHOOL.

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observer 8 years, 4 months ago

sadder still are the ones who will vote for him

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DaREEKKU 8 years, 4 months ago

What a sad and pathetic joke.

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wendt 8 years, 4 months ago

"He moved to Lawrence about a year ago"

Jeez, I've been here for eight years. Does that mean I can run for Governor?

I'm uncomfortable with someone whose been here less time than a sophomore running School Board policy for the entire state.

=====

The pool on the results of the next election starts now.

---Will it be like Dover PA and do all the members get voted out??

---Will only the conservatives get voted out?

---Will only the rational members get voted out?

Place your bets.

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Jamesaust 8 years, 4 months ago

"These evolutionists are saying that Jesus was half-chimpanzee"

I thought the "evil-lutionists" said that the chimpanzee was half-Jesus.

""Did we just appear like the rock?"

Oh, no. Sorry, better get ready geologists. Now, religious dogma says that rocks "appeared" (read Genesis, I guess). You'd better start revising that textbook.

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classclown 8 years, 4 months ago

Alan Detrich was most likely in a tizzy and part of the crowd out for blood at the "insensitiveness of his ilk being refered to as 'fundies', yet has no problem calling people that don't believe the way they do "evil-lutionists". But I guess the people that believe in such "nonsense" aren't oppressed like the poor bible thumpers are so it's okay.

However he is yet another ID proponent to admit that ID is about nothing more than religion.

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Azure_Attitude 8 years, 4 months ago

Evolutionist saying Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammed are half chimpanzee? that is ridiculous! These conservative yutzes are the ones saying that Adam and Eve walked among the dinosours. what level of idiocy is our state going to sink to if this guy and others like him get/stay on the board?

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even_money 8 years, 4 months ago

Oh, great. Another live wire. Just what we need.

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