Archive for Tuesday, June 21, 2011

Kansas’ quick implementation of new abortion rules may force clinics to shut down

June 21, 2011, 4:43 p.m. Updated June 21, 2011, 5:29 p.m.

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— Kansas has taken only a few weeks to draft new abortion clinic regulations and plans to decide by July whether to give the state's three existing clinics the licenses they need to continue operating, according to documents released Tuesday.

The top executive for Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid Missouri said he's concerned imposing the new regulations so quickly will force all three clinics to shut down. The Planned Parenthood chapter operates one of the three clinics, all of which are in the Kansas City area.

The Kansas Department of Health and Environment sent Planned Parenthood a letter earlier this month saying its clinic would be inspected and notified by July 1 whether it would have a license. The other clinics received similar letters.

The Associated Press filed an open records request last week, seeking copies of the department's correspondence with the clinics. Planned Parenthood provided its copies of the letters, shortly before the agency released them. Both also provided a copy of the latest version of the new regulations, dated Friday, the same day clinics were required to apply for their licenses.

Peter Brownlie, the Planned Parenthood chapter's president and chief executive officer, said it is consulting with its attorneys about filing a lawsuit over the regulations and the process used to impose them.

"Certainly, it's unfair," Brownlie said. "It is rushed. It is disorderly. It is confused."

Department spokeswoman Miranda Myrick said the process for imposing the regulations has been "appropriate." Supporters of imposing the rules on the clinics argue they'll protect their patients against potentially substandard care.

But Brownlie and Jeff Pederson, administrator of the Aid for Women clinic in Kansas City, Kan., said they don't trust the regulatory process because Republican Gov. Sam Brownback is a strong abortion opponent, and fellow abortion foes pushed for the new rules.

"I already know the $500 I spent is wasted," Pederson said, referring to the annual licensing fee required of clinics. "They have a mandate from God, and they need to make political hay while they have control of the House and Senate and they have the governor's mansion."

The health department is imposing the rules under a law enacted this year by the GOP-dominated Legislature and signed into law by Brownback last month. The clinics received their first letters, telling them regulations were coming, on May 26, or 10 days after the signing.

A June 9 letter to the clinics came with draft regulations and said, "You will be notified of our decision to approve or deny your facility for licensing on or before July 1, 2011."

Four days later, the department sent another letter, saying a revised version of the same regulations would be sent to the clinics, the ones dated June 17. Brownlie said Planned Parenthood's copy arrived Monday; Pederson said his clinic received its copy Tuesday.

Officials at the Center for Women's Health, in Overland Park, did not respond immediately to a telephone message seeking comment.

Brownlie said though he believes Planned Parenthood's clinic, also in Overland Park, can meet the new regulations, he's not sure what issues will be raised by the inspection, scheduled for Wednesday, and whether Planned Parenthood or any other clinic operators will have adequate time to address perceived deficiencies.

Pederson said his clinic's inspection hasn't been set.

The new law requires annual inspections of each clinic. It also directs the health department to set standards for exits, lighting, bathrooms and equipment. The agency not only will issue annual licenses but have the power to fine clinics and could go to court to shut them down.

"The agency has been careful to follow the procedures and requirements set forth," Myrick said.

Comments

deec 3 years, 11 months ago

So females get themselves pregnant? Once again, there is no mention of the responsibility of the male for inserting part A in slot B and causing the pregnancy. I read somewhere else that these so-called pro-lifers should actually be called pro-birthers, since they have no interest in the welfare of the fetus and its mother once the fetus exits the womb and becomes a baby.

deec 3 years, 11 months ago

So are saying women impregnate themselves?

funkdog1 3 years, 11 months ago

I think deec is saying that allllll unwanted babies may be dropped off at his/her house.

deec 3 years, 11 months ago

I'm saying the probirthers should step up and support the pregnant women who wish to raise their children by supporting WIC,TANF, increased enforcement of child support on sperm donors, increased funding for medicaid and education, becoming foster parents,etc. If they don't want to fund these programs, they should not consider themselves pro-life. I'm a woman who had four live births and one spontaneous abortion. That means miscarriage. I had the choice to carry my pregnancies to term, and I support other womenn's right to make that choice for themselves.

dpowers 3 years, 11 months ago

So they should still be forced to keep these babies even if it is 1%?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

This has nothing to do with rape--it has to do with keeping medical care--sanitary and safe. We do not need abortion clinics with dead rats in the hallways like the one in KCK! These regulations should have happened years ago--but guess who blocked them?--Sebelius and her extreme left wing agenda.

TheStonesSuck 3 years, 11 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

notanota 3 years, 11 months ago

Except that the largest group of people who get abortions statistically are not teens, already have children, and are using birth control - though likely incorrectly.

If you really want to reduce abortions, you should increase family planning services and education to prevent adult women from unintended pregnancies.

notanota 3 years, 11 months ago

Really? Education out the wazoo? Huh. I think you must have attended a different Kansas public school system than I did. You've also magically found the land where doctors and nurse practitioners have more than 15 minutes per patient to go over all the available options, the risks/benefits, the proper use, etc.

That aside, you're proposing that married couples ought to know better than to have unitive but non-procreative sex. Because it's just like eating cheeseburgers or smoking, right?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Increase money to Planned Parenthood ? The largest abortion provider? These "Family Planning" organizations appear to be providing abortion as a method of birth control. Abortion on demand for all nine months of pregnancy is their agenda and we need to stop them!

notanota 3 years, 11 months ago

  • Not intended to be a factual statement

There, fixed it for you.

ivalueamerica 3 years, 11 months ago

The only thing that will happen if abortion is made illegal again, is that women will return to shady doctors because you simply can not force a woman to breed against her will, she is not a cattle.

Further, the Bible instructs priests to perform abortions on adulterous women, why do the Christian Militia never mention that?

Brock Masters 3 years, 11 months ago

Never heard of the Bible instructing priests to perform abortions. I'd like to read it for myself, can you quote chapter and verse? Thanks.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

Why Abortion is Biblical: How anti-abortion activists misrepresent the biblical record. http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

What has been so clearly demonstrated by the Bible - the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can be seen in a variety of Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period.

"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

"And Job said, 'Let the day perish on which I was to be born, and the night which said, "a boy is conceived." May that day be darkness; let not God above care for it, nor light shine on it.'"

"Why did I not die at birth, come forth from my womb and expire? Why did the knees receive me, and why the breasts, that I should suck? For now I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept then, I would have been at rest, with kings and with counselors of the earth, who rebuilt ruins for themselves; or with princes who had gold, who were filling their houses with silver,. Or like the miscarriage which is discarded, I would not be, as infants that never saw light. There the wicked cease from raging, and there the weary are at rest. The prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master." Job 3:2-4,11-19

funkdog1 3 years, 11 months ago

And, in fact, there are several protestant churches that don't take an official stance on abortion precisely because of these verses.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

That's crap. The protestant churches that take this stand are only doing it because they want their churches to be full of people to give money. If you offend people with the truth, they don't come and they don't give. Nobody is going to continue to go to a church where they are being told that what they are doing is wrong. It's human nature.

dlkrm 3 years, 11 months ago

None of the above has anything to do with abortion. Killing an unborn baby is punishable by murder under the mosaic law. Your lies have been discovered.

ksjayhawk74 3 years, 11 months ago

By "lies" you mean things that were quoted from the Bible?

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Quoted from the Bible out of context. You can never take the Bible and read one passage and make an absolute statement. Scripture is only accurately understood when you take into account, the meaning at the time it was written and the subject matter it was written about.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

"One sided. That's the abortion stance of most Christians -- one sided. We hear the Christian Coalition speak against abortion. We hear Focus on the Family tell Republican candidates it will not support them unless they state their opposition to abortion. We hear Operation Rescue's Christian members praying God will turn back the clock and make abortion illegal again. Over and over we are bombarded with the "Christian" perspective that abortion is outright wrong, no exceptions. With all these groups chanting the same mantra, there must be some pretty overwhelming biblical evidence of abortion's evil, right?

Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles. People will listen to their pastors and to Christian radio broadcasters. They will skim through easy-to-read pamphlets and perhaps look up the one or two verses printed therein, but they don't actually read their Bibles and make up their own minds on issues such as abortion. They merely listen to others who quote a verse to support a view they heard from someone else. By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context.

This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion. Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms: Psalm 139:13-16

Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed. But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical."

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

ivalueamerica 3 years, 11 months ago

I have reposted over and over..I suggest those who REALLY care what the Bible says to actually read it instead of rely on what someone tells you it says.

Numbers 5, 11-31 tells of how Priests are instructed to feed bitter herbs to adulterous women to abort their babies by the other man.

gatekeeper 3 years, 11 months ago

The problem with most Christians is that they have never really read the entire Bible and studied it. Guess what guys - what you hear in sermons at church or were taught in Sunday school as a kid is just a tiny fraction of that book and so much of what they teach in Sunday school is actually made up (Noah's arc story for example - most of the cr*p they teach in Sunday school about the flood isn't in the Bible).

The Harlot By The Side of the Road is a great book filled with a lot of excerpts from the Bible that most have no clue about. Guy that wrote it decided he would read the Bible to his kid and was shocked once he started reading it front to back and wrote his book to highlight what most Christians are very ignorant of.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

The Bible does not instruct priests to perform abortion at all. Point to the scriptural reference you are perverting please~! Secondly, when abortion was illegal it was controlled and very rare. It was viewed by the criminal code to be a crime and was so for centuries in the common law.

ivalueamerica 3 years, 11 months ago

You continue to either offer false witness, or if you are not telling a lie, you simply do not know the Bible.

Numbers 5 clearly instructs priests to give adulterous women bitter herbs to miscarry so not to have the other man's baby. That is abortion.

And if you are going to also pretend that history is on your side...common law also allowed arranged marriages to minors, made it legal for men to beat and rape their wives, hold slaves and a whole array of activities that we now realize as unthinkable...such will be the case of you deciding if a woman you do not know should be forced to breed after being raped by her father.

William Weissbeck 3 years, 11 months ago

Hey, how about publishing a copy of the letter and the proposed regs. I'd like to know what my government is up to. Does anyone think that a Kansas state agency actually wrote these regs, rather than some right wing think tank from Texas or Florida? Why do we even waste tax dollars paying for a state government? At this point all the laws and regs are being written by the "think tanks."

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Just like the left-wing "think tanks" that helped to make the coal-fire plants in western Kansas almost impossible. Don't think that one side plays any differently from the other! These organizations just help to promote their agendas and it happens from both sides of the aisle and from the direction of all political ideals.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

What has been so clearly demonstrated by the Bible - the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can be seen in a variety of Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period.

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

Louis White 3 years, 11 months ago

You just said it's ok to burn fetuses, Einstein.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

Let me guess: were you home schooled? I quoted from the Bible and made no statement of my own -- Einstein.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

Correction, I quoted from an article and made no statement of my own -- Einstein. I do not condone the burning of fetuses, they're much tastier when smoked.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Again you misquote the Bible. The woman was not burned to death. God did not instruct that she be burned to death. Her father-in-law was told that she was a prostitute and he said, "Bring her out and burn her", however it was all a misunderstanding and that was resolved. You cannot take a verse out of context and make an accurate interpretation of the Bible.

As far as your statement that the Bible does not recognize a fetus as a human being, you should read the passage below:

Psalm 139:13-16

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

The Bible clearly recognizes the "fetus" as a human being.
PERIOD.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

"Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms: Psalm 139:13-16

Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed. But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical."

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

That is one opinion--however, most Christian organizations, hold otherwise and do not agree with you interpretations (or rather) misinterpretations! Life begins and conception and each unborn baby should be protected from that moment. Killing these children as a method of birth control like we have done in America since the late sixties must come to an end! It is a brutal violation of the human rights of us all when one of these little ones is put to death by the abortionist's knife!

cowboy 3 years, 11 months ago

This is just plain and simple government abuse. The goal is clear. Abortions are a legal right in the United States. The born agains want to regulate them out of business because their ideology hasn't been supported by the highest court in the land. Planned Parenthood national should hire the finest lawyers they can and put these simple minded morons back under the rock they crawled out from under.

Gail Grant 3 years, 11 months ago

Exactly. It is amazing how Republicans say they want small goverment and not having the goverment involve in their daily life. But once it is related to women it is fine to abuse resources and take the most basic rights

dlkrm 3 years, 11 months ago

Prohibition of abortion protects life. Abortion takes life. The government is right to step in to protect life, especially of the defenseless. The woman's "right to her body" ends where the other body begins.

jonas_opines 3 years, 11 months ago

Or, alternatively, you're wrong. It's all in your assumptions. How you classify life, how you protect it, your mandate to protect it, etc.

There's no Truth to any of it.

Which is why it should remain a personal decision.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

The truth of it is, that if that is not a baby in a woman's womb, then she is not pregnant. The difference between a fetus and an infant is semantics. The fact is that if that fetus is allowed to continue to grow, it will grow into an adult human being. If that is not true, then why is it a crime to smash the eggs of a Galapagos Turtle?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Thank you for the name-calling it really lowers your position in the argument! Abortion is a brutal and ugly act have you ever seen one performed? Yes--you are correct that the Christian community in this nation is standing up to say it must stop-- I believe you will be amazed at how abortion will be curtailed over the next few years-- we are finally making progress to help women and children!

Phillbert 3 years, 11 months ago

Republicans like Brownback believe in the "rule of law."

They make the rules because they make the laws.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Last I knew, the Governor doesn't make the law, the legislature does.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Because they won the election fair and square!

Bob_Keeshan 3 years, 11 months ago

Can you imagine KDHE doing a 3 week hack job on environmental regulations?

At least Kansans can rest assured that there wasn't anything else for KDHE employees to be doing and they had plenty of free time to jump right into regulating abortion clinics.

Funny how they can't seem to keep up on their duty to regulate child care facilities and are always complaining about a lack of resources and staff. Funny sad, that is.

Joseph Jarvis 3 years, 11 months ago

An administrative rulemaking in 3 weeks is crazy. Social conservatives should pursue the laws they want. But sacrificing a fair process is bad governing, regardless of political views.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

There is no evidence that this has not been a fair process!

Joseph Jarvis 3 years, 11 months ago

@kansanjayhawk: The thing speaks for itself. Non-emergency administrative rulemakings in ~3 weeks are rare. Having personal experience in a federal regulatory agency, I would be surprised if it received the technical review a usual rulemaking would have received.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

The requirements of the law speaks for itself and it requires that the reg's take effect upon a certain date.

Joseph Jarvis 3 years, 11 months ago

@kansanjayhawk: You're making my point: The legislature gave KDHE less than 40 business days to do a technical rulemaking.

I'm sure KDHE staff have bent over backward to comply with Kansas's administrative rulemaking statute. But even with that compliance, it is not unreasonable to wonder if the rush has affected the rulemaking's technical quality.

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Abortion clinics are medical care providers. They must come under the same regulations as other out- patient medical clinics and surgicenters. laboratories, inhalation therapy departments, pharmacies, ex-ray departments have a litany of rules and regulations and inspections that they must endure. For example, The smallest hospital or clinic laboratory for years has been forced to comply with a whole host of oft bureaucratic but sometimes necessary regulations, such as, FDA inspectors for blood products, fire and safety inspection teams, quality control inspectors and daily continuous control testing and document compliance regarding all testing methodologies, radiation inspectors for radioimmunoassay protocols, JCAH inspectors, College of American Pathology inspectors, cytology expertise testing and cytology and histology lab inspectors and protocols of records keeping, Kansas state health department inspectors, CLIA (Clinical Laboratory improvement Act inspectors,), Coding specialist compliance officers, etc.. Much of this is just bureaucratic turf control, some is helpful, much is redundant. The point is this has been the state of the art and the standard operating protocol for decades, only recently has the abortion clinic been visited with a tenth of the oversight other medical care providers have had had to endure for decades.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Welcome to the miasma of harassing legislation and protocol that has markedly increased costs elsewhere in medicine. Bout time the abortionists were asked to provide their own pound of flesh rather than just harvesting that of others. Gkerr

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Huge jump here. Churches aren't licensed and don't perform life threatening surgeries. So, your comment makes no sense.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

That is simply not true. These clinics have been violating health and safety regulations for years because the bad behavior was covered by Tiller funded politicians like Sebelius and Parkinson! Guess you didn't hear about the dead rat on the floor of the hallway at the Kck clinic? Guess the mainstream media let you down didn't they? The legislature would not have passed this law unless there was evidence of clear violations of common sense health and safety standards. Brownback is doing the right thing!

Bob_Keeshan 3 years, 11 months ago

Shocking level of ignorance. Meanwhile, hundreds of child day care facilities go uninspected because KDHE can't find the resources.

dadt 3 years, 11 months ago

Excellent point. The Christian Militia care only about fetuses, not actual children. Slashing of funding of social services and education budges that affect our state's neediest kids, what's so pro-life about that?

Planned Parenthood saves lives and saves women from having abortions. Its primary, #1 goal, is the prevention of abortion. Abortion is a last-case scenario. Obviously none of these people have ever used a Planned Parenthood facility. I have, and I'm over 60. When I was in college, years and years ago, it was the best place to receive birth control. I was and am still a Catholic. What was I supposed to do? Ask my mother? Ask my doctor? Catholic girls aren't supposed to have premarital sex, but they did, and they still do. It's a fact. I thank God I had access to Planned Parenthood.

dlkrm 3 years, 11 months ago

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jonas_opines 3 years, 11 months ago

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Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

You obviously haven't read the news lately. Planned Parenthood has not such goal of abortion being it's last option. It is in fact the first option that they offer.

In fact Planned Parenthood's founder's goal was to kill non-white babies. That's a fact and you can't deny it.

funkdog1 3 years, 11 months ago

You obviously have NEVER, EVER actually walked into a Planned Parenthood and you have no idea what you're talking about. The "news" you're talking about is Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly, which is not news.

CloveK 3 years, 11 months ago

Or you can not swallow every pill Faux Noise puts down your throat.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

These are two separate issues--a person does not have to support one and oppose the other-- both should be enforced!

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Vertigo, They have not already complied with those regulations. They are a species of surgery center and have not been regulated with anywhere near the scrutiny of conventional surgery centers. That is the problem. Complications have not been reported and have not been searched for by overseeing agencies with any due diligent scrutiny. Reporting requirements regarding state law defined statutory rape notification have not been enforced. Surgical specimens have not been disposed of properly. Follow up therapy and post op complications have not been routinely reviewed by bureaucratic overseers, etc.. Gkerr

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

No database when it has been covered up for years by bought off politicians! Remember the Tiller charges dropped by his bought and paid for Attorney General?

50YearResident 3 years, 11 months ago

The Lord instructed Mr. Brownback to pass and enforce this law. Remember, everyone knew he was an excentric religious savior of the people politician. Kansas voted for him without my vote.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Hmmm...Last I knew the Governor doesn't make the law. I did vote for him and he will get my vote again. He will probably be the Governor again too, with or without your vote. Thankfully there are many of us who will vote for him again.

CloveK 3 years, 11 months ago

And that is why I will be leaving this ass backwards state. Lived here my entire life, but the way things are going I won't be sticking around to experience how bad it gets. Brownback has his personal agenda and it has nothing to do with helping Kansans.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Remember this law was passed by a huge bi-partisan majority in both legislative chambers! Health and safety regulations to protect women and children should not be controverial! The "Lord" i'm sure is pleased with the law but he was not the reason that our legislature and Brownback brought it up! It was to protect people who might go to one of these clinics from some of the filthy conditions that were found in the past!

pace 3 years, 11 months ago

The laws intention is not to regulate a medical procedure its aim is to restrict women from access to their civil right to a medical procedure. They are spending lots of tax money and government power to restrict access to a legal right to a medical procedure. Similar to Jim Crow laws designed to make it harder for poor and or minority people to access their right to vote. Oh they are doing that too.

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Wrong Pace, the law is intended to require the abortionists clinics to labor under the same stupid canopy of excess bureaucratic excess that the rest of medical providers must endure. It's just that the excess regulation now hits a darling of the government overseers just as it has tortured other medical providers for decades. It's about time. Gkerr

Andrew Reeves 3 years, 11 months ago

Wrong, gkerr. That is what this new set of regulations is hiding behind. How come this is an issue all of a sudden? They've had to pass regulations in the past. Why are they changing the laws?

I agree, if the clinics aren't up to code, they should be corrected. (just like any other medical establishment). But I suspect that it isn't as simple as that.

And how come they only have a month to correct the problems (if they have them)? Do they shut down other establishments if they don't fix their problems within a month?

pace 3 years, 11 months ago

If you believe that then you might want a bridge that is for sale. No the restrictive regulation is not to make abortions safer, it is designed to pass for that, but if you hope the laws work to decrease abortions or hope they don't, most people with any reasoning faculty will admit that just maybe they are designed to close clinics, increase costs and decrease access. If women's health and safety were the driving consideration behind the laws, they would read real different. They are using my tax dollars to create law to decrease a woman's access to the civil right. to a medical procedure. You might think that right should be, you are entitled to your opinion but I resent my state government using tax money to build road blocks to citizens civic rights.
I think their duty is to protect and preserve my constitutional rights. No matter how they feel.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

gkerr is correct the law is aimed at enforcing safety standards and has nothing to do with anti-abortion perspective per se. If the abortion industry wants to operate in Kansas they can have clean and sanitary clinics PERIOD!

pace 3 years, 11 months ago

Would you be interested in buying the Mass. st bridge across the Kaw? You seem to be an ideal investor/

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Lj world abortion Its an issue all of a sudden because the zeitgeist is changing a bit and more media articles are describing blatant violation of protocols in handling of complications, use of non sterile equiptment, failure to report complications to state authorities, failure to report deaths, failure to comply with reporting possible statutory rape as medical providers are supposed to do, failure to comply fully with informed consent laws and documentation.

Example,  the Chicago Tribune recently reported on marked underreporting to State authorities of  abortions, abortion complications and death.  In the article it is clear that oversight by state authorities was lax and abortion providers were negligent in their required self reporting of complications and deaths.  

Maurice Stevenson, who lost his wife to a lethal infection after her abortion at a Planned Parenthood center in Chicago told the Tribune he was  upset to learn of the Tribunes recent discoveries, saying, “It’s outrageous. These procedures, complications and deaths should be public record.”. Similar outrage was recently reported following stories in Philadelphia of an Abortionist surgeon responsible for several deaths from infection and hemorrhage due to shoddy technique and poor infection control. Oversight by authorities was lax in this case of multiple deaths as well.

As I've pointed out these increasing allegations of abuse by abortion providers have resulted in increased scrutiny of past lax oversight of Abortionists  compared to the norm. I believe and many others due too that a peculiar deference to Abortion providers and their mistakes is due to  bizarre 'politically correct' biases regarding abortion services versus other types of surgical clinics and providers. For decades now the secular cultural elites in News, medical bureaucracies, public health departments, Medical teaching centers, have refused to see the obvious abuses that have occurred because THEY Didn't Want To See Them. Gkerr

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

I think you are completely wrong and you need to do some additional research! This law has been in the works since an inspection at a KCK abortion clinic found horrible conditions there! Including a rat in the hallway and many violations of health and safety codes! We need this law to protect women from the still operating "back alley" abortionists who run these killing centers for profit!

evilpenguin 3 years, 11 months ago

Gkerr: There's an excess of the word "excess" in your post

Jeanne Cunningham 3 years, 11 months ago

Women will not stop having abortions. They will just take their medical needs to states or countries where they can get them addressed - especially those with enough money to do so - like "back in the day"... Don't you remember pre Roe v Wade? And, now that oursourcing is all the rage, this fits perfectly. More and more business gone from Kansas.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

"Women will not stop having abortions. They will just take their medical needs to states or countries where they can get them addressed - especially those with enough money to do so...." Thus making abortion available only to the wealthy. Brownback doesn't care if he shuts down clinics in the state. If his daughter needs one he'll just send her to Oregon.

dadt 3 years, 11 months ago

It's also a fact that they wealthy can get abortions. It's called a D&C, usually performed after a miscarriage. However, it can performed if the woman and her doctor expect a miscarriage to occur. In that case it is referred to as "expectant management". All a doctor needs to do is say that the woman expects a miscarriage, and therefore requires a D&C. Abortions in the first trimester are actually just D&Cs.

From http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/dandc.html "For some women, the emotional toll of waiting to miscarry naturally is just too unpredictable and too much to handle in an already challenging time. Healing for them may only start once the D&C procedure is done. A D&C may be recommended for women who miscarry later than 10-12 weeks, have had any type of complications, or have any medical conditions in which emergency care could be needed."

dadt 3 years, 11 months ago

That would be impossible to figure. Abortion has been going on as long as women have been able to get pregnant! At the time the Constitution was adopted, abortions before "quickening" were openly advertised and commonly performed. Criminalization of abortion did not reduce the numbers of women who sought abortions. In the years before Roe v. Wade, the estimates of illegal abortions ranged as high as 1.2 million per year. Although accurate records could not be kept, it is known that between the 1880s and 1973, many thousands of women were harmed as a result of illegal abortion.

dlkrm 3 years, 11 months ago

Wow, growing jobs by increasing abortions. You must LOVE Obama.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Well, that sounds sort of like. Kid's won't stop drinking at an early age, so we should just legalize it and let it be. Otherwise they will just drive over to Missouri and buy it. The fact that some people will break the law, is hardly a reason not to have a law, otherwise we should just not have any rules or laws. I think they call that anarachy. It hasn't worked out so well for anywhere that I know of.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Correct--the law is a great schoolteacher--showing us what is wrong. There is no excuse for these filthy conditions to exist in any of these clinics where we are told they perform "safe" abortions. This is a commonsense regulation that even a "pro-choice" person should support!

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Liberal, It is difficult to say what the death rate from botched illegal abortion was pre-Roe, 1973. Best estimate is less than 1000 annualy and perhaps less than 500. It is indeterminate as it is uncertain what were deaths due to Pre Roe legal D&C's for septic miscarriage and illegal back alley abortions with death due to hemorrhage or sepsis. Only very uncertain estimates can be made. Abortion death, legal and illegal, in the decades immediately preceeding Roe were far lower than in the 1930's because of antibiotics and other medical advances including widely available blood for bleeding emergencies. Post Roe abortion death rate is also not certain as underreporting of complications including death is a problem that is just now being adressed.

Abortion rate both pre and post Roe is uncertain. Guttmacher has pretty good figures post Roe some 1 to 1.4 million per year for the bulk of the post Roe years. Pre Roe figures are uncertain but all but wild propaganda estimates are far fewer abortions before Roe than after. Gkerr

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Yes- pre Roe much less destruction of the fetus--much less dismemberment of unborn babies and much more concern for morality and ethics. Abortion is a destroyer of both and it only came to be accepted once we Americans enbraced the "sexual revolution" which only hurts women and children.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

BB isn't just a "fundamentalist Christian", he is a radical, fundamentalist Catholic. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that he actually had membership in Opus Dei.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

In case you haven't heard. The Catholic Church still outlaws abortion. So I guess that every Catholic is a "radical, fundamentalist"???

notanota 3 years, 11 months ago

Except for the Catholics who get abortions. That'd be 28% of abortions in this country. Oh, and except for Sebelius, who was also Catholic. And Joe Biden, and...

Well, shoot. And you had a good straw man argument going!

verity 3 years, 11 months ago

Maybe you're being sarcastic, but he is a member of Opus Dei.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

Yes and the image of Sam Brownback practicing self flagellation warms my heart. :)

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

No evidence that Brownback would ever send his daughter to kill a baby in Oregon! You just made that up and it is a crazy statement.

Getaroom 3 years, 11 months ago

Brownbackward and his brownshirts. And people were worried about, Sarah Palin's made up death squads and Obama's secret private army and taking our guns away.

Brownbackward loves all of this control. How about having religion shoved down our throats by the ignorant? Looks like we got that. Thanks voters.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Your welcome. Hopefully we can get you a second helping!

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

No thanks. We're now moving for a recall vote. Surely a good portion of dip-sticks have died and gone to 'heaven' since the election and, therefore, we may overcome.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

No one is shoving "religion" down your throat. We will insist that reasonable health and safety standards be enforced at these abortion mills! Yes you can thank the voters because they elected legislators who agree that killing the unborn is wrong and should be restricted as allowed by the law! Pro-life and I vote!

verity 3 years, 11 months ago

Of course, this is a back door attempt to stop abortions and is blatantly illegal and unconstitutional.

I'm sure they know the law will be contested and maybe (probably) that is the point. Get the current activist Supreme Court to nullify Roe v Wade.

As to the ever-running argument on whether abortion is wrong or not, that really has nothing to do with this law.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Actually this is all blatanly legal. The legislature has the power to create law and the Governor has the power to sign the law into action. Nothing illegal about it.

verity 3 years, 11 months ago

I stand corrected. What I was thinking of was that you can't make a law regarding a certain entity, only a class of entities.

verity 3 years, 11 months ago

It would be interesting to know what really goes on in Brownback's brain, although knowing might be too much for my psyche.

Does he really think he's going to be President of the USA?

I guess if you're hearing voices, you can believe anything.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

I think Sam Brownback is standing by his core principles! I know that is rare for a politician but he really is pro-life and he really is a man who cares about the women of Kansas who might be injured at one of these dirty unregulated clinics!

Adrienne Sanders 3 years, 11 months ago

Uh, you guys realize that these clinics do a lot more than just abortions, right? I know Brownback doesn't but I thought other people did. These places provide health care services that women can't get anywhere else if they don't have insurance. It makes me fuming mad that these people are so intent on stopping abortion that they don't look at the other costs for half a second.

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Really, what services do these clinics provide that can't be gotten elsewhere?

Romans832 3 years, 11 months ago

I, too, question that there is nowhere besides Planned Parenthood that someone can obtain services, without insurance. Have you checked out Health Care Access? Heartland Community Health Center?

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

dulcinea47, Every walk in clinic, GP's office, Ob's office, Internist's office, public school nurses clinic, public health office, provide these 'other' services. Why even most gas stations have a safe and reliable form of birth control in their bathrooms. The Pill is easier to get in Kansas than a good mixed drink. Gkerr

Katara 3 years, 11 months ago

Have her kill 2 birds with one stone & tell her to get her annual Pap Smear there too.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

That is really bogus! These abortion mills do not provide any services for women that cannot be obtained at the county health department or at another doctors office. They really are in the business to make money--and lots of money--at killing and dismembering unborn children in their mothers wombs! That is the bottom line about abortion-it is a killing industry- they make their money doing the "dirty job" ! Many of us pro-life citizens would like to shut this industry down, however, given the law from the Supreme Court we are working to at least bring a degree of health and safety to these abortion mills. We do not want women to get hurt or injured at the hands of some drug-addicted abortion doctor. We do not want rats and filthy bloody rags laying on the floor or in the refrigerators. You need to look at the pictures from the KCK abortion mill from a few years ago. That was the beginning of the campaign to pass this law! This law passed by the legislature is very needed and it will benefit Kansans. You want "safe" and legal right?

Sigmund 3 years, 11 months ago

"Kansas’ quick implementation of new abortion rules may force clinics to shut down"

Then again, it may not. The real story here is that the State of Kansas does anything "quick."

somedude20 3 years, 11 months ago

What is worse, Brownback's actions as gov or the fact that people knew he was going to do this yet voted for him already? I knew a number of people that voted for Bush II the first time then complained about what he had done during that time only to vote for him again and would hear them complain again. Point is that many many many many many many people are just plain dumb

"What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men."

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Often Government officials get re-elected because the person challenging them is not clearly a better option. And some people are just gripers. My father-in-law has hated every President elected even the ones he voted for.

Richard Payton 3 years, 11 months ago

Plannedparenthood.org/kansas-mid-missouri/ offers more than just abortions. They offer advice on STD's, morning after pill and birth control. Many people wanting advice on sexual advice or health issues will not receive needed help which is a shame. Family planning should not be forced out of business because of new exit sign regulations.

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Rtpayton, Where have you been? In many Kansas towns the school nurses must get parental permission to give children a Tylenol but the school nurse used to arrainge for students to have abortions without their parents consent. In our town the Cheer Leader coach and counsellor would do the same. I suspect that School nurses can still give out pills and condoms to students without parental consent but maybe parental notification laws have precluded that, maybe not. Gkerr

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

As a Christian I would likely say that they offer bad advice. We need morality and we need our kids to wait until they are married to become sexually active. That will solve these issues alot better than Planned Parenthoods "safe sex" method with a back-up of abortion. Remember Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the U.S. They are part of the abortion industry.

ksjayhawk74 3 years, 11 months ago

Wait, you don't know why women get pregnant? I'm sure you can google that information.

I think you meant to ask why women have sex if they don't want to get pregnant. Pregnancies are very often not planned for a range of reasons I don't have to elaborate on.

I wonder why people drive cars if they don't want to die in a car wreck.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

That's an extremely sorry reason to have sex (and an extremely sexist thing to say).

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Cait and I don't agree often, but that is a sad comment.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

I am amiss why people bother to spend a minimum of 10 years in school if they don't learn critical thinking skills.

jonas_opines 3 years, 11 months ago

I am amiss at why people lose their jobs if they don't want to starve.

MarcoPogo 3 years, 11 months ago

I am amiss at why more than 30 million people bought Alanis Morissette's album "Jagged Little Pill".

missmagoo 3 years, 11 months ago

When life begins is a personal religious decision and should fall under the separation of church and state.

It will be a sad day for women everywhere if these clinics get shut down. Abortion is not illegal. Stand up for a woman's right to choose!

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

Legal does not equal right. It's also legal for the government to condemn your property and take it away under immenient domain laws.

By the way, Brownback didn't write that one either.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

Legal may not equal right in your worldview (or mine for that matter) but this country is built on the law and respect for the law. Ignore that at your peril.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

Nice try, rush. You really need to rename yourself to richardcranium.

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Missmagoo, Put your glasses on. Abortion is not illegal but many if not a majority think it is wrong. Those who think it alright should still want it to be safe, well supervised, well documented, and complications well treated.
Nonetheless, Planned Parenthood has a poor track record of compliance with safe protocols for abortion. The public purse is not a hog trough for every service provider who wants a hand out. Government at all levels is strapped or deep in debt. Taxes are high at all levels. Planned Parenthood has many extremely wealthy supporters, so do the arts, and PBS, let those wealthy elites and all you who support the disgusting act of killing an innocent baby in utero for nearly any reason support the clinics who want to do such awful things. You would be well served if they did them safely and complied with tracking data and proper surgical technique and infection control and emergency treatment form complications rather than hiding their disasters and crying like stuck pigs about complying with regulations required of all surgical clinics. Gkerr

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Abortion is the dismemberment and killing of a developing human being. I think it is really sad that since the late-sixties we have allowed these killing centers to be used as a method of birth control!

Terry Jacobsen 3 years, 11 months ago

I don't know about you, but I want to know that the medical clinic that your daughter might go to for an abortion is safe and clean and following the rules. If that is an over reach into private life then so be it.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

The clinics already follow the same regulations re: safety and cleanliness as any other stand alone surgery center. Seriously, if those regs are good enough for a carpal tunnel release or removal of a benign tumor, shouldn't they be enough for an abortion?

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Cait48,

Wrong. Removing a skin tag is not the same thing as abortion. Abortion is a dicey surgical procedure that has a high risk of infection, hemorrhage, and uterine perforation. As the pregnancy develops beyond 12 weeks the danger rises exponentially.
Gkerr

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

I didn't say "removing a skin tag". Reread my post. Benign breast tumors, biopsies of various body parts and carpal tunnel releases are often done in free standing surgeries. Heck, back surgery is being done in free standing surgicenters. "Skin tags" are removed in doctor's offices, not surgicenters. Try again.

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Cait48,

Excuse me, I thought you said..."....or removal of a benign tumor..."

Fibroepthelial polyps are benign skin tumors they are also known as skin tags. But your point begs the point that you thought abortion was like removing a benign mole or nevus which is absurd and a dangerous ignorance of the sort of ignorance responsible for the media and their acolytes to ignore the damage that occurs in the average abortion clinic because many abortionists are in over their heads and their staffs are poorly trained and NOT concerned with the life of the mother as much as quickly snuffing the life of the mothers baby. Gkerr

Bob_Keeshan 3 years, 11 months ago

Safe and clean and following the rules that we make up when "safe and clean" doesn't close it down...

If these new rules don't close it down, then make up some even newer ones, under the false pretense of "safe and clean". Oh, and ignore all the other work KDHE is supposed to be doing because this is the most pressing priority in Kansas.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

It is no secret that Brownback governs according to his beliefs in a magical sky god. He doesn't just have these beliefs, he governs on them.

Did you expect anything less? You get what you vote for.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

I didn't vote for this, Bea, and I didn't vote for him. I didn't get what I voted for and I doubt very seriously the majority of this board did either. Our speck of blue is held hostage to the sea of red in rural central and western Kansas. Brownie gave the farmers 8 years of federal subsidies and pork bellies while he was in DC and now they're paying him back. Oh and let's not forget the Koch money. They don't care about his "religiosity". it doesn't affect them or their bottom line. Just keep those tax cuts comin'.

missmagoo 3 years, 11 months ago

Brownback has been and always will be pushing his own agenda, not the issues of the people.

gkerr 3 years, 11 months ago

Beatrice, Your prejudices are telling. That you have no fear of giving offense on this blog is testimony of two considerations, you have nothing to fear from those who respect and love the sky God you demean, and you will be considered a bold and clever wag by many on this thread.
If you were in some countries, in the Mid East for example you would know intuitively to be more careful. Gkerr

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

Gkerr, your jealousy of Muslim men is very telling as well. Isn't it nice that we don't have to be afraid of Sharia law or forced into keeping our mouths shut just because we're women?

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

Let me be the first to suggest: RECALL VOTE! It's not that hard to do. Start gathering signatures, right? I'm certain that the Sham has lost thousands of voters over the past 18 months as the old coots have died off with time. It's natural. They're in 'heaven' now. Perhaps we can rally some folks who decided not to vote. The amount of ridiculous B.S. Brownback is shoving down people's throats will spur many to act, this time.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

Let me clarify for you: a baby is born and a fetus is not. No one supports killing babies. The abortion issue is only one of many political footballs that the Sham has fumbled. I don't live in that lib town, btw. Lawrence is full of liberals. So is Topeka. So is Kansas City. So is Wichita. I believe we have plenty of signatures from those four cities alone. And I know a few good old boy liberals out around Hill City that I can get on board along with all their friends. The youth of America is where it's at. We must mobilize them.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

How many fetuses do you claim on your income tax form?

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

Just to let you know, the American eagle was officially removed from the endangered species list some time ago. They aren't even a protected species anymore.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Well for every vote he has lost-- there are two that he has gained-- because he has stood up for principle and not just politics! He is doing what is right even if it costs him politically and I firmly believe that most Kansans respect him for what he is doing.

gudpoynt 3 years, 11 months ago

"He is doing what is right"

I see. And what exactly is that? Because from where I'm standing, he isn't doing things right at all.

Could it be, that his and your "right" might be different from my "right"?

Could it be, that for a democracy to work, leaders have to make compromises instead of simply going on what they think is "right"?

Why is the concept of differing opinions of righteousness so easily lost on the Teapublicans? No wonder they demonize intellectualism as elitist and smug -- much of their most outspoken constituency seems to lack the mental capacity to view a world outside of themselves -- diehard solipsism.

dpowers 3 years, 11 months ago

And how many unwanted children have you adopted krush?

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 11 months ago

The purpose of an abortion is between a women and her doctor and none of YOUR business. There are many reasons to have them; a woman has cancer and can't start chemo until the pregnancy is terminated, she was raped by a stranger while walking home from work, she has five children, no husband and no way to support a sixth child, the developing fetus has no brain or no liver or too many genes or not enough genes. It doesn't make any difference. Unless you are the woman facing the decision it's none of your business. Get over it.

Katara 3 years, 11 months ago

You understand that birth control can fail, right?

Katara 3 years, 11 months ago

That's not much of a response to the fact that birth control fails.

funkdog1 3 years, 11 months ago

And husbands and boyfriends NEVER pressure women to have sex "in the moment" when there's no birth control in the picture.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 11 months ago

The purpose of an abortion is to terminate the pregnancy. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus. It's basic biology. Put down the bible and get an education. Perhaps you should start learning about critical thinking and problem solving.

coloradoan 3 years, 11 months ago

Why hasn't anyone posted the obvious problem -

How about due process? Why isit that no one has addressed the fact that regulations are not enforceable until they have been adopted? They have to be put on public notice, and there has to be an opportunity for a public hearing. The facilities cannot be shut down without the opportunity to be heard. Even temporary regulations require more notice than has been given here!

And once a public hearing is held, well, show up and voice your opinion!

ivalueamerica 3 years, 11 months ago

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither... pass it on.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

GKerr, I did not demean the belief in a magical sky god. I simply pointed out that Brownback believes in one. I honestly do not care what anyone believes in, be it the tooth fairy, Santa, or Zeus, just as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves.. I do demean Brownback's form of governing, however, because he governs as if everyone shares his magical sky god beliefs. So yes, I am prejudice against those who want to base OUR laws on THEIR beliefs.

Your veiled implication of harm if I spoke as I do and lived in the Mid East (is that east of St. Louis?) proves my point of what happens when people let their beliefs control their actions. Dare not speak your mind against the tooth fairy ... or else. Do you really think that is the better way for mankind to live, that those who disagree with laws based on sky god beliefs should be dealt with in a harmful manner? It appears you do.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Here we go with the anti-Christian hateful bigotry again. I have noticed that the pro-abortion people who post on this site consistently demean and attack the personal religious beliefs of other members of society. We should be able to debate issues without attacking one another personally. Perhaps we do not all agree on issues even as large as the issue of abortion! Perhaps even families are divided by this issue and there are some who are pro-choice and yet would support reasonable health and safety regulations at aboriton clinics. No one should be personally demeaned and belittled by other simply because they do not agree with YOU or have a different opinion. How can there ever be a common ground if we attack the religious faith of another person?

Bob_Keeshan 3 years, 11 months ago

Yes, Lawrence is the only pro-choice place in Kansas. Way to bring the crazy.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

I think you r confusing different branches of conservatism. Really prior to Roe there was a consensus even in the Democrat party that abortion was something evil and something that should be avoided and outlawed. Remember abortion was considered a criminal act by the abortionist against the woman, society, and of course, the baby!

ivalueamerica 3 years, 11 months ago

got so excited that you repeated yourself..lol

Here is one http://people-press.org/question-search/?qid=1781228&pid=51&ccid=51#top

and while almost half of those asked today will label themselves pro life if given only a choice of the 2 labels, if you ask the REAL question, should a woman have access to an abortion is she should need one, notice that the number jumps quickly into the yes column.

Here is some more information that reveals the same thing, that Pro Life does NOT mean anti choice, just as much as Pro Choice is NOT pro Abortion.

http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=26880

However, the extremists can not admit to that or they would loose footing. They love claiming numbers, but without the whole story, it is just lies. False witness and they will have to answer for that to God.

Joseph Jarvis 3 years, 11 months ago

@kansanjayhawk:

"I have noticed that the pro-abortion people . . . consistently demean and attack the personal religious beliefs . . . We should be able to debate issues without attacking one another personally."

You often call for civility. Yet you demean and attack others frequently.

Last week you said a former judge and attorney general was immoral, incapable of fairness, incapable of applying the law, and didn't care about the Constitution. Last month you called gays unnatural, wicked, weak, unhealthy, and sinners.

How do you reconcile your own behavior?

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

Where is the personal attack? Seriously. I want it spelled out.

Brownback believes in a magical sky god, does he not? Where is the attack in that? It is fact. His god isn't a non-magical, ground-based god. No, he believes in a god that lives ... up there ... magically. You may not care to have such beliefs described in that manner, but it is accurate.

Is saying children believe in a magical jolly man who brings presents demeaning to the children? No, it is just a description.

The problem is when people govern others based on their own personal beliefs in magical entities that live in the clouds. Some of us don't like that. If Brownback didn't bring his religion into his governing, then the issue of his beliefs in a fantastic sky god wouldn't be an issue. Since he does, it is.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

Strange threading. The above is intended for kansasjayhawk, not Joe, of course.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

I know what I have written, and in none of my comments in the past several months have I made a personal attack against anyone. You are the one making the claim of "hateful bigotry," and it isn't the first time you have made such a claim. I'm asking you to support that accusation with evidence.

I say you can't support your accusation because I have not made bigoted or hateful comments. Go ahead, prove me wrong. If you can't, then you are just throwing out false and empty accusations.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

Why is reference to a sky god offensive? Doesn't the Christian god live in heaven, which is in the sky? If he doesn't live in the sky, please let me know where he lives. Likewise, he is magical, is he not. Magical sky god is an accurate discription in what people believe. The problem with your comparison of the "Anointed One" is that Obama wasn't anointed, he was elected. It isn't accurate.

My statement of keeping their beliefs to themselves is not in reference to speech, but legislation. I fully support Christians having every right to speak of their beliefs in their magical sky god. I don't believe they have the right to legislate and make laws for the rest of us based on those beliefs. I'm sorry if I didn't make that distinction clear.

Christine Anderson 3 years, 11 months ago

I despise Brownback. Didn't vote for him. I believe in non-violent forms of protest only. Still, according to my own personal convictions, if the damn clinics get shut down, I won't waste any time finding and playing a tune on that tiny violin. I'd be popping the cork on a bottle of bubbly.

Kontum1972 3 years, 11 months ago

what if was your daughter who became pregnant by Micky over in johnson county...how would u handle it...?

me curious....

verity 3 years, 11 months ago

I might point out here that if you study history, whenever religion and government get too cosy or become the same entity, things don't generally go well. They corrupt each other and power seems to corrupt everything it touches. Remember that a great deal of what the Protestant Reformation was about was corruption in the Roman Catholic Church, the lust for power of the hierarchy and how the common people were treated.

George W. Bush kept accruing more power to the presidency. Now when Barack Obama has continued to use those powers, the people who supported Bush's usurpation are crying foul.

I've said it before and I'm going to keep saying it---watch out what you wish for.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

What about when the secular humanists and the courts get too cozy and take away the rights of religious people? There are too sides to every story...

verity 3 years, 11 months ago

What religious rights have been taken away?

And, no, there are not necessarily "too" sides to every story. Sometimes there are numerous sides and sometimes there is only one.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

kansanjayhawk, I've asked this before without a response and verity just asked it. So here it goes again -- In what way has your freedom of religion been limited? Who is saying you can't believe as you choose?

Have churches be closed to punish those who worship in a spiritual entity? No. Have we put people in jail when they go door to door trying to spread their religious views? No. Are you allowed to believe in what ever god you choose? Yes.

You are mistaking your right to religious freedom with your desire to have society conform to your religious views. Well guess what, not all of us share your views and we refuse to live OUR lives based on YOUR religion, just as you wouldn't want to live your own life based on my complete lack of belief in some mystical higher power. The fact that you don't appear able to see the difference is where we have a problem.

Don't like abortion? Then guess what, you don't have to have one. Your freedom is not limited.

In other words, just because someone else is allowed to do something that runs counter to your religious beliefs is this in now way a limit on your religious freedoms.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 11 months ago

Many freedoms have been taken away including the freedom to pray in school and the freedom for a teacher to read the Bible in school or instruct the students in the basic tenets of religion. You need to read the various Supreme Court decisions that have limited the rights of the "religious" and try to enforce a more "secular" nation. Many of us view these as a secular assault upon our nation and our religious freedoms.

jafs 3 years, 11 months ago

Teachers and students are free to pray unceasingly in schools - they just have to do it silently and internally.

Schools can instruct students in religion if they do so in a way that isn't promoting that religion - ie. as part of religious studies coursework.

You may view this however you like, but you are incorrect. This is not any sort of "assault" on anybody - it is simply an attempt to ensure separation of church and state.

beatrice is right on - you seem to confuse your freedom to practice your religion with the freedom/power to impose in on others.

Kathy Getto 3 years, 11 months ago

"The left wing extremists know that religion is a tenet of that system." You do realize that a tenet is a belief or a theory, don't you? Do you really want your laws to be made up of beliefs and theories?

Not sure what you are getting at with the Communist rule comment, but I did want to share something I find interesting. If you are old enough YOU MAY remember the document porduced in the 60s which listed many pERceived goals of an imminent take over of America by Communisn. One of those was something along these lines:

"Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.""

I knew it all along - our gov must be a closet communist. HOW SINFUL.

Kathy Getto 3 years, 11 months ago

You are correct, however, I don't wish the laws to be governed by a mere belief.

"Now it's my turn to be confused. No, I do not remember the words from the 60s which you have penned here. Of course, I was not part of the Hippie movement back then. I was called a baby killer and spat upon when I came back from the 'Nam."

The document was not penned by the hippie movement to my knowledge. If memory serves me, it was a governmental committee. I'm sorry you were treated in that manner.

"Are you suggesting that Brownback's defunding of the arts in some way degrades artistic expression?"

Something to think about.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

You are saying that adding "under God" is what stopped us from falling under Communist rule?

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

kjh, if you think teachers should be allowed to read from a Bible then you must support a teacher who might also want to read to students from the Quran or any other religious text, correct? You must be okay with a teacher reading to your child from the Satanic Bible, or from L.Ron Hubbards book of Scientology, correct?

If you can't honestly say yes to these question, but still insist that teachers should have the "freedom" to read from the Bible, then you aren't talking about freedom. You are talking about biased Christian indoctrination.

You have the freedom to believe as you wish. That has not been stopped or altered in any way. What you don't have the freedom to do and never had the freedom to do is to force your religion on others.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

kjh, thank you for making it clear that your idea of freedom is the ability to force your religious views onto those who may not share those views. Many of us would not agree with this view of "freedom."

baa, "under god" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Somehow, I am thinking that we weren't exactly a religion-attacking nation run by leftists prior to this point. Also, the last time I checked, the U.S. Open Golf Tournament is a private business. Are you suggesting that businesses must now be making oaths "under god"? Sorry, but the golf tournament has the right to ignore any reference to any religion they choose. That is why it is called freedom. You are allowed to worship whatever god you choose and I will choose in the god of my choice, which is no god at all, and we are both free to do as we wish. I won't force my religion on your daily life and routine, and you can't force your religion on me. Can you really not see how this is what is meant by freedom? Really?

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

NBC is also a private business. Are you claiming businesses must now swear an allegiance to god to be truly American? You should also attempt to support your "left wing agenda" claim about NBC if it is to be taken seriously. Otherwise, you are just stating your opinion.

As I've already stated, you obviously can not see how freedom to worship as you choose does not mean you have the right to force your religion on others. Do as you wish, but don't tread on me in the process.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

So you are saying that a private business that doesn't make a pledge to god is left-wing. Got it.

Regarding forcing religion on others, you came to the defense of kjh, who wrote of "the freedom to pray in school and the freedom for a teacher to read the Bible in school or instruct the students in the basic tenets of religion." If you support the idea that teachers should have the "freedom" to read from the Bible in school, then that would be an example of forcing religion on others. Would you not agree?

The Pledge of Allegiance, as it was adopted, did not carry the words "under God."

jafs 3 years, 11 months ago

There is no attempt by "the left" to attack religious believers or eliminate them, in my view.

There is, in fact, a strong difference of opinion between those on the left and those on the right regarding the role of religion in public schools, among other places.

According to BAA and others, we are a "Christian nation" and that should be taught in public schools. At the same time, for many on the left, separation of church and state should guide decisions like that, and they think that there should not be "Christian" education in public schools.

This is a real disagreement, but it is one based on content, not personal animosity.

If you look at it, you can tell that the religious believers want to impose their set of religious beliefs on others in a public school, and those opposed simply don't want that to happen. The ones opposed are not trying to stop believers from practicing their religion at home, church, etc.

Parents who want their children to have "Christian" values taught to them can do it themselves outside of school hours, or home school them, or send them to a private school. I'm not sure why that isn't enough for them.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

BAA: "Editing due to ideology has a tendency to upset people as evidenced by the irate responses they received from American citizens. ... They should pledge allegiance to our country under God, just as it is written. End of discussion."

Of course, it wasn't originally written to include those two words, 'under god." That came about thanks to editing due to ideology. That type of ideological editing tends to upset people who don't believe in magical sky gods.

I must ask once again, are you or are you not arguing that companies must pledge allegiance to god? Isn't NBC a private company? Must they pledge allegiance to any god other than the god of monetary profit?

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

I've read your responses, but you continue to dodge and duck specific questions. Oh well.

I use magical sky god (don't forget the "magical") in my writing on religous matters because it is an accurate description, is it not? When I went to Sunday school, I was taught that god lives up in the clouds. He isn't an earth-bound being. He is also all powerful, I was told. He is, thus, a supernatural heavenly-based deity, or more simply, a magical sky god. You tell me -- what is incorrect in my statement?

It is generally used when people apply their religous views to matters that concern all of us, even us athiests and agnostics.

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

BAA, I have not used the term "tea baggers" since January. Because of the double meaning and obvious innuendo of the term, I stopped using it.

Sky god, however, is accurate and describes exactly what Christians believe in without using a single insulting word or double meaning. It is a wonderful example of precision in the use of the language. Just because someone doesn't want to admit to believing in something that can accurately be described as a sky god isn't my concern. I will continue to use it because of its accuracy. If it weren't accurate, you would have been able to tell me why.

No shame here.

So why is it Christians don't like to have their beliefs in a supernatural, non-terrestrial diety described in direct terms, but they don't have any problems with telling others they live in sin or are going to hell for all eternity? If I don't believe in hell, isn't that just a little bit of an insult? Shame, shame ....

beatrice 3 years, 11 months ago

Feel free to prove anything I've said here to be false. You won't be able to.

You have a nice evening as well.

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