Archive for Sunday, May 31, 2009
51-year-old man arrested in murder of George Tiller outside his church
Man expected to face murder, aggravated assault charges
The body of a shooting victim is removed from the Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kan., Sunday, May 31, 2009. Media outlets have identified the victim as George Tiller, the controversial abortion provider who has long been the subject of protests.
May 31, 2009, 11:43 a.m. Updated May 31, 2009, 9:07 p.m.
George Tiller shot to death at church
The man accused of shooting and killing Kansas abortion doctor George Tiller remains in jail.
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George Tiller shot to death
Controversial late-term abortion provider George Tiller was shot to death outside his Wichita church Sunday morning.
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Vigils held in Lawrence, Wichita for George Tiller
Hundreds gathered in Wichita and more than 100 people gathered in Lawrence for vigils to remember George Tiller, who was shot to death outside his church Sunday morning.
Wichita physician George Tiller makes notes while listening to the testimony of former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline in Sedgwick County District Court in Wichita in 2008.. Tiller was accused of violating a 1998 state law requiring that a second, independent Kansas physician sign off on most late-term abortions. Tiller’s attorneys subpoenaed Kline, saying he was overzealous in his investigation of Tiller.
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- Vigils held in Lawrence, Wichita for Tiller
- ‘Person of interest’ in Tiller murder has had brush with the law before
- Reaction to the shooting of George Tiller
- Obama issues statement deploring Tiller’s murder
- Anti-abortion groups fear Tiller’s murder could influence Supreme Court justice’s confirmation
- A timeline of other recent abortion-related violence
Late-term abortion doctor George Tiller, a prominent advocate for abortion rights wounded by a protester more than a decade ago, was shot and killed Sunday at his church in Wichita.
Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said Tiller, 67, was serving as an usher during morning services when he was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church. Stolz said the gunman fired one shot at Tiller and threatened two other people who tried to stop him.
A 51-year-old suspect was arrested in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Stolz said. Police had been looking for a gunman who fled in a 1993 light blue Ford Taurus registered in the Kansas City suburb of Merriam, Kan.
Although Stolz refused to release the man's name, Johnson County sheriff's spokesman Tom Erickson identified the detained man as Scott Roeder. He has not been charged in the slaying. Sunday night, he was taken from the Johnson County jail where he had been held for six hours. He was expected to be taken to Wichita for questioning.
Court records and Internet postings show that a man named Scott Roeder has a criminal record and a background of anti-abortion postings on sympathetic Web sites.
The women's clinic run by Tiller is one of three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy, when the fetus is considered viable, and has repeatedly been the site of protests for about two decades. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985.
Stolz said the suspect likely would face one murder charge and two counts of aggravated assault. Charges probably will not be filed until Monday, he said.
Stolz said all indications were that the man acted alone, although authorities were investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.
Stolz said that Tiller apparently did not have a bodyguard with him in church, although the doctor was routinely accompanied by one. An attorney for Tiller, Dan Monnat, said the doctor's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting.
Monnat said that Tiller recently had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. However, Stolz said authorities knew of no threats connected to the shooting.
Adam Watkins, a 20-year-old who said he has attended the church his entire life, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard a small pop at the start of the service.
"We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said.
Another usher came in and told the congregation to remain seated, then escorted Tiller's wife out.
"When she got to the back doors, we heard her scream, and so we knew something bad had happened," Watkins said.
He said the service continued even after an associate pastor announced that Tiller had been injured.
"We were just really shocked," he said. "We were kind of dumbfounded. We couldn't really believe it had happened."
He and other church members said anti-abortion protesters have shown up outside the church on Sundays regularly.
"They've been out here for quite a few years. We've just become accustomed to it. Just like an everyday thing, you just looked over and see them and say, 'Yup they're back again.'"
He added: "We had no idea that someone would come into our church and do such a bad thing like that — inside of a church."
Tiller's attorneys issued a statement on behalf of his wife, four children and 10 grandchildren.
"Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients. This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace," the statement said.
"Our loss is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality heath care despite frequent threats and violence."
Reformation Lutheran Church held a special service Sunday evening. Dr. Michael Bates, who has known Tiller for more than 25 years, attended and described it as a simple service featuring Bible readings. Reporters were kept out of the service.
As for the Tiller family, Bates said, "They're pretty withdrawn of course, still in shock."
At a vigil in downtown Wichita, about 10 people from Topeka's Westboro Baptist Church held signs emblazoned with such messages as "Abortion is bloody murder" and "Baby killer in hell." The church is known for picketing military funerals.
The protesters and about 20 Tiller supporters shouted at each other. A large number of police officers stood by to make sure the scene stayed under control.
The vigil was attended by about 200 people.
Earlier, Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri had said it was working with law enforcement to secure its facilities Sunday even after the suspect was in custody.
Anti-abortion group Operation Rescue issued a statement denouncing the shooting.
"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," said Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."
But Randall Terry, a veteran anti-abortion activist who founded Operation Rescue and whose protests have often targeted Tiller, called the slain doctor "a mass murderer," adding: "He was an evil man — his hands were covered with blood."
Nancy Keenan, president of abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America, praised Tiller's commitment to providing abortion services.
"Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita," Keenan said.
President Barack Obama also expressed outrage over the killing.
"However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," Obama said.
Tiller remained prominent in the news in recent years, in part because of an investigation started by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.
"I am stunned by this lawless and violent act, which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law," Kline said in a written statement. "We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."
Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.
Abortion opponents also questioned then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' ties to Tiller before the Senate confirmed her this year as U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary. Tiller donated thousands of dollars to Sebelius over the years.
As one of the few doctors in the nation to perform late-term abortions, Tiller had been a high-profile target of abortion opponents for decades. His clinic, Women's Health Care Services, was bombed in 1985, and Tiller was shot in both arms in 1993 by abortion protester Rachelle "Shelley" Shannon of Grants Pass, Ore.
In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests. After those protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media.
The clinic is fortified with bulletproof glass, and Tiller hired a private security team to protect the facility.
At his recent trial, he told jurors that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats and that he knew he was a target of anti-abortion protesters.
Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.
Someone named Scott Roeder, then 38, was charged in Topeka, Kan., in 1996 with criminal use of explosives for having bomb components in his car trunk and sentenced to 24 months of probation. However, his conviction was overturned on appeal the next year after a higher court said evidence against Roeder was seized by law enforcement officers during an illegal search of his car.
At the time, police said the FBI had identified Roeder as a member of the anti-government Freemen group, an organization that kept the FBI at bay in Jordan, Mont., for almost three months in 1995-96.
Someone posting to the Web site of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue in May 2007 used the name "Scott Roeder" in response to a scheduled vigil to "pray for an end to George R. Tiller's late-term abortion business."
"Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp," the posting read. "Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller."
A vigil in memory of Tiller is planned for 8 p.m. in Lawrence's South Park.
Check back to LJWorld.com for more information
Information from the Associated Press was used in the creation of this report.
More like this
- Obama issues statement deploring Tiller's murder 8 comments / May 31, 2009
- 'Person of interest' in Tiller murder has had brush with the law before 4 comments / May 31, 2009
- Anti-abortion groups fear Tiller's murder could influence Supreme Court justice's confirmation 16 comments / May 31, 2009
- Suspect in Tiller murder returned to Wichita 37 comments / June 1, 2009
- Reaction to the shooting of George Tiller 16 comments / May 31, 2009
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31 May 2009
at 11:49 a.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
From twitter: EaglePhotos
http://twitpic.com/6ca48 - Another photo from Tiller scene.
http://twitpic.com/6c999 - Photo from the Tiller shooting scene.
31 May 2009
at 11:51 a.m.
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Keith (Anonymous) says…
Not by an liberal I bet.
31 May 2009
at 11:57 a.m.
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merrill (Anonymous) says…
Some Pro Lifers have violent murdering tendencies….
31 May 2009
at noon
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Wonder which fundamentalist anti-abortion group he belongs to? Hope they quickly get the killer and all his helpers.
31 May 2009
at 12:02 p.m.
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Multidisciplinary (Anonymous) says…
Stunned.
31 May 2009
at 12:04 p.m.
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WereAllMonkeys (Anonymous) says…
Here comes the wingnuts.
31 May 2009
at 12:05 p.m.
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Irish (Irish Swearingen) says…
I think that what Tiller did was horrifying and wrong, and I am astonished to learn that he was a member of a church.
None of which excuses murder.
As a Catholic I hope and pray that it was not a Catholic who did it, and if it was that the Church denounces this person in no uncertain terms.
There are rogues in every church that will not listen to authority but create their own.
If there is a solution to this problem, I sure don't know it.
31 May 2009
at 12:06 p.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
Almost certainly the handiwork of a “good Christian.”
31 May 2009
at 12:08 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
And I'll bet he's a Wichita native.
31 May 2009
at 12:08 p.m.
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mcontrary (Anonymous) says…
Onward christian soldiers! Or, what happened to the commandments you tout so well, the one that says “thou shalt not kill”, the one you will probably use to justify this killing? Of course, your actions match thinking processes.
31 May 2009
at 12:11 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 12:12 p.m.
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KatWrangler (Anonymous) says…
Shocked and saddened.
31 May 2009
at 12:12 p.m.
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mcontrary (Anonymous) says…
You are astounded that Tiller was a member of a church? There are many members of churches who think similarly to Dr. Tiller, many of them Catholics. 50% of Catholics believe in abortion. Narrow minds make narrow choices and judgments.
31 May 2009
at 12:13 p.m.
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fearxile (Anonymous) says…
Pro-lifers murdering people.. hahahahaha!! Got to love it.
31 May 2009
at 12:14 p.m.
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akuna (Anonymous) says…
Just helps prove that Christians are hypocrites. Not that any more proof was necessary.
I feel for Tiller family and all of the young, lost people that he would have help. May he rest in peace knowing that he performed a great service to our society in uncertain times.
31 May 2009
at 12:14 p.m.
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sandersen (Anonymous) says…
Sigmund-
Exactly the kind of psychotic sheeple-speak I expect from your ilk.
31 May 2009
at 12:14 p.m.
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bookemdano (Anonymous) says…
Hope whoever did this is caught and rots in jail for life.
31 May 2009
at 12:15 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Sigmund, congratulations you are the first posters to support this killing. You must be very proud of that honor.
31 May 2009
at 12:15 p.m.
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merrill (Anonymous) says…
Guns,vandalism,bombs and murder…… maybe its' time for the FBI to keep an eye on these violent organizations.
31 May 2009
at 12:23 p.m.
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begin60 (Anonymous) says…
All Kansans should hang their heads in shame that an act of such brutal hatred typifies the abortion debate here.
31 May 2009
at 12:25 p.m.
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BrianR (Anonymous) says…
As I've said before, these wackos are domestic terrorists and need to be treated as such.
31 May 2009
at 12:26 p.m.
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ashmole (Anonymous) says…
Terrorism, pure and simple.
31 May 2009
at 12:26 p.m.
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akuna (Anonymous) says…
@sigmund I just read your comment. Even if meant in jest, you should be ashamed of yourself. That is not a particularly humane thought nor a particularly funny joke.
31 May 2009
at 12:27 p.m.
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misplacedcheesehead (Anonymous) says…
I am very much against abortion. I am equally against Dr. Tiller being murdered. I also believe in offering compassion to those who have chosen abortion because they thought it was their only option. I do not believe in offering “hate” after the fact; this solves nothing.
I believe in peaceful, non-violent means of protest only.
This is NOT right. This is as much “murder” as the late-term abortions he performed.
I like what Irish has said. This is NOT the way. Never the way.
The person who did this has accomplished nothing-but another murder.
You see, we are not all clinic-bombing, murderous people.
31 May 2009
at 12:29 p.m.
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BrianR (Anonymous) says…
“…I am astonished to learn that he was a member of a church.”
Why? This statement makes no sense.
31 May 2009
at 12:30 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
What I find shocking is that I am not shocked. I have learned to expect fanatics with access to guns to kill people they don't agree with. It is simply and sadly the American way.
My condolences to the Tiller family and friends.
31 May 2009
at 12:33 p.m.
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misplacedcheesehead (Anonymous) says…
I also meant to add that all pro-lifers should be prepared to “put our money where our mouths are”. Meaning, do not work to save an unborn, and then abandon the child and his/her mother once the baby is born. And yes, I include myself in that.
31 May 2009
at 12:36 p.m.
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monkeyhawk (Anonymous) says…
Interesting how most have already concluded the motivation of the perp.
31 May 2009
at 12:38 p.m.
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angel4dennis (Anonymous) says…
My prayers go out to his family member and friends. No child should have to witness the murder of anyone and to murder inside a church is appalling.
31 May 2009
at 12:38 p.m.
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willie_wildcat (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 12:39 p.m.
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djeyler (Anonymous) says…
No way to justify killing old george tiller. One things for sure a lot of babies will be getting a second chance tomorrow and a lot of mothers will need to decide if the murder of tiller is what they really wanted for their own child. No difference. George didn't deserve to die and nor does did all the babies he has murdered over the years. Rest is peace george.
31 May 2009
at 12:39 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
As I've said before, these wackos are domestic terrorists and need to be treated as such.
some of the same far left crazies want to give american constitutional rights to Al-qaeda terrorists and treat them like criminals instead of terrorists…hmmm who's the hypocrits?
***
the same commandment that Tiller routinely violated means that he shouldn't have been murdered.
in part, the blame goes to gov. billious and her crowd including the Wichita D.A. the legislature passed and past governors have signed restrictions on *late term abortions* but Tiller was frequently bending the definition of the “health of the mother” exemption, apparently aborting late term babies [yes I said babies] for the mother's transatory depression, for example. so most of Tiller's practice was continued in overt opposition to the expressed will of Kansans, as expressed through their legislatures and past governors. when the government fails to enforce the law, is it reasonable for vigilantes to rise up?
killing Tiller was wrong, just as his abortion practice was wrong.
31 May 2009
at 12:40 p.m.
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Patriot2 (Anonymous) says…
Whoa!!! Where did it say anywhere, yet, that this had anything to do with the abortion debate! Let's not jump to conclusions. I'm sure his life comprised more than being a doctor.
And begin60– go head and hang your head in shame, that's your choice.
31 May 2009
at 12:40 p.m.
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magnus (Anonymous) says…
My thoughts & prayers are with the Tiller family in light of this tragic event. I guess we can add this to a long list of shameful days in the history of Kansas. What hypocrisy from the “pro-life” side of this discussion.
31 May 2009
at 12:41 p.m.
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Defender (Anonymous) says…
“I have learned to expect fanatics with access to guns to kill people they don't agree with. It is simply and sadly the American way.”
This is not the American way, this is part of the human condition. Fanatics everywhere gets guns and kill others they disagree with, beatrice.
31 May 2009
at 12:50 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
akuna (Anonymous) says… “@sigmund I just read your comment. Even if meant in jest, you should be ashamed of yourself. That is not a particularly humane thought nor a particularly funny joke.”
It was a bad joke, nothing more.The person who is accused of committing this crime should be subjected to the full measure of Kansas law. This includes the presumption of innocence and full constitutional rights. If convicted they should be subjected to the maximum proscribed penalty. Any shame I feel for having for made a distasteful joke is several orders of magnitudes higher than any sorrow I feel that Dr. Tiller is no longer killing healthy babies just days from live birth.
31 May 2009
at 12:51 p.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
“Interesting how most have already concluded the motivation of the perp.”
What do think the odds are that the motive was other than extreme objection to his professional occupation?
31 May 2009
at 12:54 p.m.
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magnus (Anonymous) says…
Sigmund, Are you suggesting that if a woman's life was in danger due to potential complications from birth it would be wrong for Dr. Tiller to honor her wishes and possibly save her life?
31 May 2009
at 12:54 p.m.
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temperance (Anonymous) says…
Stunned and saddened.
begin60 is right – this is a sad day for Kansas. Maybe we can wait 24 hours before the “jokes” and all-out culture war debates? Maybe?
31 May 2009
at 12:55 p.m.
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jhokfan (Anonymous) says…
And the murderer thinks he has just earned himself a higher place in heaven. Except for the degree of destruction, what’s the difference between this guy and someone who flies a plane into a skyscraper.
31 May 2009
at 12:58 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I will consider all Religious Rite from this day forward
k i l l e r s !!!!
I will not differentiate. All Religious Rite will be considered killers.
I am pissed as hades on this one.
Tiller was a good man!!!
He did good things!!!
31 May 2009
at 12:59 p.m.
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athfo (Anonymous) says…
It's funny how people are already commenting on motive of and origin of the suspect.
31 May 2009
at 12:59 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
yes Monkey,
it displays the intolerant left at work, the people who preach tolerance.
what if Tiller were killed by a father who was angry his child had been aborted?
you people say the choice to abort her baby is the mother's alone. but if baby is born, dad gets stuck with the child support. but what if he had opposed the abortion and was angry?
for all we know now, this may have had nothing to do with the prolife movement. some women are scarred for life emotionally and physically because of abortion, what if it had to do with that? yes, having an abortion can decrease a woman's potential for bearing another child. increase her risk of breast cancer.
there are two scenarios. and I didn't have to work very hard.
***
wife's reaction:
“you live by the sword, you shall die by the sword.”
31 May 2009
at 12:59 p.m.
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texburgh (Anonymous) says…
The “pro-life” movement - an American Taliban with no respect for human life. These people and their legislative cronies believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth. The most rabid anti-abortion legislators also oppose health care for children, public education, universal preschool, job training for young mothers, and any other bill that might actually help and support people who decide not to have an abortion. And they just love the death penalty.
Pro-life? Not hardly. They are just anti abortion. Life has nothing to do with their moral underpinnings.
31 May 2009
at 1 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
The morale of this story:
Never! Ever Go To Church!!!!
31 May 2009
at 1 p.m.
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RedwoodCoast (Anonymous) says…
Yeah, Bozo, this was obviously a tragic coincidence. I don't know who you're quoting in that last post, but the person is probably smiling in front of his/her computer at the news.
Respect life my @ss.
31 May 2009
at 1:04 p.m.
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storm (Anonymous) says…
He was such a great and admirable doctor. My condolences are with his his family during this difficult time.
I hope women can continue to get the help they need and deserve from other fine physicians. We need to protect physicans somehow from these terrorists.
31 May 2009
at 1:05 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Defender: “Fanatics everywhere gets guns and kill others they disagree with.” True, but they do it with great frequency here in America because of the ready availability of guns in our country. It is a pure and simple fact, whether you want to admit it or not. It is the price our society pays for having ready access to guns. It is the American way.
31 May 2009
at 1:06 p.m.
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Thats_messed_up (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 1:06 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Operation Rescue had something to do with this. That California man who moved to Wichita to counter Tiller is a very nasty, unlikable man and not without his own strange sexual kinks (rumors abound in Wichita about him). He will go to his own kind of long-term hell for all that he has done against another human being and all women seeking choice.
I bet he aided in the crime, finding a low-intelligence person who he could brainwash with abstracted bible verses, that somehow justifies killing in the eyes of some strange god.
31 May 2009
at 1:08 p.m.
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RedwoodCoast (Anonymous) says…
Quoting from an article on msn.com:
“We are shocked at this morning’s disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller’s family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.”
Only in Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ is all I have to say. BS the pro-life movement isn't predicated upon faith.
31 May 2009
at 1:11 p.m.
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chicklet (Anonymous) says…
A sad, shameful day for Kansans. It makes me question why I would want to bring any child into this world.
31 May 2009
at 1:12 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
The Religious Rite are indeed considered domestic terrorists by the intelligence community. This act today is right up there with the Anthrax Killers (plural for a possibility), who was an extreme Religious Rite person.
So I take it it is now open season politically on the Religious Rite?? That is how I see it. Making a stand today.
Tiller's killer was in the church, premeditated this, probably practiced it.
OR maybe all that those good hearted Christians gave their hard dearned money to Operation Rescue so that OR could silently hire a assassin to kill Tiller.
The Religious Rite H A T E S. That is what they are all about.
31 May 2009
at 1:13 p.m.
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storm (Anonymous) says…
By the way, Operation Rescue didn't know Dr. Tiller was a doctor. Idiots.
31 May 2009
at 1:15 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
come on Marion, chime in and tell us about how Tiller was bad and handguns are good. Such a wonderful world you advocate for.
We know you would never be caught owning a Taurus.
31 May 2009
at 1:15 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
Wow!
31 May 2009
at 1:16 p.m.
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jhokfan (Anonymous) says…
For all those proclaiming that this is a shameful day for Kansans, I think it is a shameful day for Christians.
31 May 2009
at 1:19 p.m.
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twosides (Anonymous) says…
Religous right “kill for peace”
31 May 2009
at 1:21 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
I am a GOP member.
Some have posted here that some in our group are akin to the “American Talibahn”. That is true and I agree, the resulting death of Dr. Tiller doing legal procedures at the hands of a violent individual with dogmatic belief must be rejected and denounced.
“ALL GOP” or religious right is not “killers”, and do not believe in this at all. The poster that stated all wer killers is operating on emotional hate, I recommend not to turn it into hate. Hate is what killed.
Guns were not the culprit either, it was a dogmatic belief in supreme correctness, and whether it was a knife, a bomb, or a gun, it makes little difference. It could as easily have happened with a car.
One poster stated thatthey found a low intelligence person to do the dirty work, possible, but speculation at this point. Remember in the minds of those that will celebrate this, the person will be viewed (incorrectly I believe) as a saint that saved children.
One thing this misdirected person accomplished in murdering a person for “pro-life” stances did the following:
1.) Made the support of Anti-Abortion politically toxic. Just who is going to associate with this in any way?
2.) Marganilized the whole movement to “kill” to stop killing.
This will be tried as a “hate crime”, and therefore start the process of case history for other politically laligned groups. (Be careful about how happy you are at this point, if a particular party loses powere and is replaced then the reverse will then be no longer happy.)
My sympathies for friends and family in their tragic lose.
31 May 2009
at 1:21 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
magnus (Anonymous) says… “Sigmund, Are you suggesting that if a woman's life was in danger due to potential complications from birth it would be wrong for Dr. Tiller to honor her wishes and possibly save her life?”
Nope. Fortunately modern medicine in 2009 has many tools to prevent such tragedies and it is an extremely rare case that a child needs to be aborted in the third trimester to literally “save the mothers life.” Still it could happen and in those one in a million cases where this arises the mother should have the right to make any decision she likes including killing her baby girl/boy by partially birthing the child and then crushing its skull and sucking their brains out, or chopping the child limb by limb and vacuuming from her body, just days before live birth as sad as that would be.
31 May 2009
at 1:21 p.m.
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MyName (Anonymous) says…
This is just bad. You can talk as bad as you want about his work (which was 100% legal BTW), but you have to admit the man had courage to keep doing what he was doing for all of those years.
Tiller died just going out there living his life In spite of some of the crazy people that have decided their brand of religion and politics gave them license to do whatever they want to the “boogie man”.
31 May 2009
at 1:22 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“Richard Heckler (Anonymous) says… Some Pro Lifers have violent murdering tendencies….”
As do some pro-choice people. Violent murdering tendencies (whatever that means) do not discriminate.
“Richard Heckler (Anonymous) says… Guns,vandalism,bombs and murder…… maybe its' time for the FBI to keep an eye on these violent organizations.”
A) Learn how to use the comma and the space in conjunction, old man.
B) It is utterly hilarious to read a post from you advocating for increased government surveillance. Do you have no intellectual or ideological integrity? Wait, don't bother - I know the answer to that question, hypocrite.
31 May 2009
at 1:24 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Tiller will most assuredly rest in peace knowing that he was so much a part of free will that is the essence of the human race.
The Religious Rite Are Indeed Killers!
31 May 2009
at 1:25 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
The murder of George Tiller is wrong on many levels and will do only harm to those on both sides of the matter.
This was not correct way to stop his murder of babies in the womb but one must admit that it was effective.
31 May 2009
at 1:27 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
“…Any shame I feel for having for made a distasteful joke is several orders of magnitudes higher than any sorrow I feel that Dr. Tiller is no longer killing healthy babies just days from live birth.”
================================
So you are saying Tiller was all about aborting healthy babies just before birth? So all these women were simply evil, selfish mothers-to-be?
I have a hard time believing that a mother-to-be would feel life in her womb and yet decide on a whim after 6 months that she changed her mind. I was under the impression that most late term abortions were due to sever issues with the fetus that could not be uncovered on a sonogram at an earlier stage OR that the mother's health/life were truly at risk.
31 May 2009
at 1:28 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
This is the best thread ever to stay away from. I've got a myriad of comments, not necessarily all about Tiller being shot and killed. Conservatives, please proceed with caution. The posting left will be O K here, not conservatives. Be careful.
31 May 2009
at 1:31 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
“We know you would never be caught owning a Taurus.”
Marion writes:
Au Contraire!
I own four Taurus.
A Model 66, two Model PT92 FS 9mms and A Model PT92 AF, also a 9mm.
31 May 2009
at 1:33 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
Marion wrote:
“This was not correct way to stop his murder of babies in the womb but one must admit that it was effective.”
Buddy I have supported your viewpoint many times, and I do agree with you most the time. However this is not effective. Contraception is the most effective. Before anyone had taken a gun in to kill a doctor in a chruch of all places, they should have crawled down of their cross, and support the use of contraception. 850,000 abortions are done in a year, and 52% are 2nd timers, and another 9% are third timers. So in fact 60% of all abortions are a result of “contraception” after the fact.
This was no answer, and is not effective and will set back the movement, if not end it all together.
I for one an one Republican that is completely done with the Anti Abortion groups, in entirety, in the absolute.
They frankly do more damage to our society and our party that the amount constructive actions they produce.
I am simply done with the whole lot. Same with the anti evolutionairey people as well.
I am DONE!!!
Still a Republican, but done with these zealots!!!
31 May 2009
at 1:34 p.m.
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chicklet (Anonymous) says…
OK, you're right. A sad day for christians? Kansans?
No.
A sad day for WOMEN.
31 May 2009
at 1:36 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
A very, very sad day for free will (!!) and the rights of women everywhere.
31 May 2009
at 1:38 p.m.
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Practicality (Anonymous) says…
I am not condoning the murder of Dr. Tiller. But, all of the negative comments directed at Christianity and people who go to church is absurd. Of course there are nut jobs who go to church, just as there are nut jobs in all areas of society. But, in no way do they make up the majority of church members. You people lambast church members for the same thing you are doing right now. Being intolerant. Can you religious naysayers actually sit at your computer and convince yourself that all those elderly people, who go to Church every week, who donate money that often goes to help unfortunate people like the homeless and disaster victims, who fund Doctors and Nurses to go to third world countries to help people, are really as terrible as you are trying to make out? Hardly. Many aspects of our society have been helped by donations and volunteers who belong to a Church. Maybe you people should practice the tolerance yourselves first.
31 May 2009
at 1:39 p.m.
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smot (Anonymous) says…
Tiller had to realize that he was at risk for this type of ending and chose to perform a medical procedure that he believed was a necessary service to society. I am sure that he had been threatened many times. The person who killed him is truly evil incarnate and should be dealt with to the highest extent of Kansas law. Tiller was a brave man and has paid the ultimate price for his commitment to provide abortions. My prayers go out to his family who have likely dreaded this outcome for many years. Any person who believes that this was some type of justified killing should look deeply inside themselves to see if they have any clue as to the difference between right and wrong.
31 May 2009
at 1:40 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
chicklet (Anonymous) says… “A sad day for WOMEN.”
Unless your a baby girl just days from being born who would have been aborted by Dr. Tiller next week and now you can grow up to be a woman.
31 May 2009
at 1:40 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Don't bring a child into this world!
It is hard to protect them from the likes of thoughtless people like George Bush, Operation Rescue terrorists, and the extreme Religious Rite.
31 May 2009
at 1:44 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Asbestos:
Well, let's not hop, skip and jump to unwarranted conclusions here, as we don't know who killed Tiller or why; everyone is only speculating.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water, as it were.
31 May 2009
at 1:45 p.m.
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Alabamastreet (Anonymous) says…
According to numerous outlets, the suspect was driving a Powder Blue Ford Taurus with K-State Vanity Plates 225 BAB. Obviously not someone who was worried about getting caught with plates like that.
31 May 2009
at 1:46 p.m.
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athfo (Anonymous) says…
“And I'll bet he's a Wichita native.”
The car police are looking for has been said by multiple news sources to be registered in Merriam, KS.
31 May 2009
at 1:46 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Every single anti-abortion group should be classified as a terrorist group and treated as such. Especially operation rescue and Randall Terry in particular.
Tom, you, Marion, Godot, Parkay and especially those like Sigmund share the blame for this.
I hope this act will help destroy the Republican party and their mindless bowing to christian extremists. In plain english the entire evangelical fundamentalists movement.
31 May 2009
at 1:49 p.m.
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puppyfeathers (Anonymous) says…
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31 May 2009
at 1:50 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Don't bring a child into this world!
It is hard to protect them from the likes of thoughtless people like George Bush, Operation Rescue terrorists, and the extreme Religious Rite.
=============================
What an illogical, emotional comment.
Please tell us all what time in civilization would be a better time for children? wwi? wwii? Cold War era? Spanish inquisition? Roman Empire? Before we had modern medicine? During the Salem witch trials?
If you don't want to have kids, then don't. But making the current times to be worse than earlier times is right down silly.
31 May 2009
at 1:51 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
“Every single anti-abortion group should be classified as a terrorist group and treated as such. Especially operation rescue and Randall Terry in particular.
Tom, you, Marion, Godot, Parkay and especially those like Sigmund share the blame for this.”
NO they are not responsible for this. The responsible person took a gun to a church and murdered someone.
Be careful about how wide you “cast you net” about the “terrorists”.
Aren't you the guys that want to give rights to “terrorists”?
SO Non American Citizen “Terrorists” get “rights” but American Citizen with politiacl differences to your that are associated with a crime should loose all their rights”?
You would then have to expand that to include anarchists, and environmental people, etc ad nauseaum.
Be careful how you walk this forward, you may limit your own right by denying others theirs.
(And NO, nobody has the right to murder another person. ALthough you do have the right to defend yourself.)
31 May 2009
at 1:52 p.m.
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Liberty275 (Anonymous) says…
I like irony. It is one of my favorite things… It would have been ironic if his head had been crushed and he'd been sucked up with a vacuum cleaner. Of course, it could still be ironic if he was killed in the commission of a robbery by people stealing money he earned by killing other people.
I support a woman's “right to choose” AKA “abort their mistake”. I also know that abortion is the murder of a human. A man licensed to kill babies is dead, and I dont care. He could be alive tomorrow and kuilling more babiers and I wouldnt care any more or less.
31 May 2009
at 1:52 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
This horrible murder will sling-shot the Religious Rite right out of political influence. The Religious Rite, as of today, are dead within the political arena.
This horrible murder will diminish church attendance everywhere.
Like growing to be a woman is all that fun!!
This is still a patriarchial society with pay inequities, with religious finding all sorts of manners to keep you own and submissive, controllable. Women are raped, beaten, killed by men and spouses.
Husbands are the number one person most likely to kill a women.
Over 50% of the USA female population lives without spouses. I think this is something to celebrate. It is the first time that our country has experienced this. Men are no longer necessity, some considered dangerous and merely chattel to some women. How does it feel, big boys?? To know that you have been set aside much like a garage sale item?
The Bible belt leads the country on divorce rates.
Only half of children brought up within Fundamentalism continue to be fundamentalists.
The Religious Rite is addicted to porn.
The Operation Rescue leader in Penn. is in jail for abusing his children and wife.
This is no longer a man's world.
The killing today will light a fire, fuel it for women everywhere, to search for ways to live without religion and the men who seek to control them.
31 May 2009
at 1:53 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
http://videos.kansas.com/vmix_hosted_…
31 May 2009
at 1:54 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
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31 May 2009
at 1:55 p.m.
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Liberty275 (Anonymous) says…
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31 May 2009
at 1:55 p.m.
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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…
Sigmund says ….Nope. Fortunately modern medicine in 2009 has many tools to prevent such tragedies and it is an extremely rare case that a child needs to be aborted in the third trimester to literally “save the mothers life.” Still it could happen and in those one in a million cases where this arises the mother should have the right to make any decision she likes including killing her baby girl/boy by partially birthing the child and then crushing its skull and sucking their brains out, or chopping the child limb by limb and vacuuming from her body, just days before live birth as sad as that would be.
Alia says…..Sigmund, I'm glad you don't worry about the truth getting in the way of your hatemongering. Partial birth abortions have been illegal in Kansas since 1999. But, I'm sure the murder of Dr. Tiller serves your purpose to spread falsehoods to stir up your base. Pro-life, right? If you were pro-life, you would be demonstrating against the death penalty and 100,000's of Iraqi's murdered because of falsehoods about WMD in Iraq and the 4000 + service members killed since the invasion of Iraq. What a sad day! I don't know who perpetrated the murder of Dr. Tiller, but it is sad that some very misguided people are celebrating his murder.
31 May 2009
at 1:56 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
It is mostly men who kill their children and families.
It is the rare instance that women do it, while the media plays up these rare events.
And most likely those rare instances where women kill their children are religiously influenced.
31 May 2009
at 1:57 p.m.
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sad_lawrencian (Anonymous) says…
I feel sad for Dr. Tiller and his family. My prayers and condolences go out to them. This is a major setback for women's right and for pro-choice advocates around the country. It is sad that this had to happen in 2009. It is regrettable that the pro-lifers thought it was a good idea to resort to this. This accomplished nothing, and if anything, this sets the debate back another 20 years.
Also, what does this say about Wichita and Kansas? The rest of the country and world will see this and they will think of Kansas as a less civilized place than the stereotype it already is.
31 May 2009
at 1:57 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania posted:
“This horrible murder will sling-shot the Religious Rite right out of political influence. The Religious Rite, as of today, are dead within the political arena.”
I would agree with that statment, but you last post shows a deep seated resentment if not out right hatred for human males. ANd you positions you just posted are just as unseemingly.
Men are no longer necessary? It is better for 50% of women to live without spouses?
“Men are no longer necessity, some considered dangerous and merely chattel to some women. How does it feel, big boys?? ”
WTF?
So you hate men. Fine, but do not push that belief on all people.
Pretty psychotic post if you ask me.
31 May 2009
at 1:57 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Marion, they do. Too bad we can't ban all the evangelical churches AKA: the American Taliban in this country. Our Constitution which I strongly believe in won't allow it.
31 May 2009
at 1:57 p.m.
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djeyler (Anonymous) says…
And all the other murders in the nation must not had been committed by “christians”. So if you blame this one murder on those evil christians who do blame all the other murders on committed in the past 24 hrs? Maybe those much closer to your views I'm sure. One thing is for sure a christian wasn't killing thousands of babies for profit in the wichita clinic.
31 May 2009
at 1:58 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says… Don't bring a child into this world!”
I assume you've had yourself sterilized?
31 May 2009
at 1:59 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
“Too bad we can't ban all the evangelical churches AKA: the American Taliban in this country.”
So Machavelli hates men and you hate “Christians”.
Yeah, you are all really enlightened.
31 May 2009
at 2 p.m.
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frwent (Anonymous) says…
I am pleased at the conclusions of some of you that this is not the act of any sort of “Christian” person or organization. Jesus Christ would be moved to tears and dispair today at the horriffic acts that have been associated with his ministry. But the fact remains, that much of the anti- abortion crowd has hijacked “Christian” values to support their cause. Put plain and simple, murder motivated by the hateful and disgusting tactics of these right-wing nazis (and that is truly what they are) is in no way excusable, as no murder of anyone is excusable. It is noteworthy that until all the facts are known, it is pointless to make hasty assumptions about this case, however it is highly likely that the hate and vitrol produced by this no-solution debate produced this horriffic action.
But I am sure that Rush Limbaugh will have suitable logic to excuse the shooter.
31 May 2009
at 2 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
The procedure that crushes the fetus skull and vacuums out the brains was invented by a Religious Rite Dr. who created it deliberately to inflame reactions. It is never used in practice.
You are thoughtless to believe that this procedure was used by Tiller. His procedure is far less inflammatory and dramatic.
You must look far beneath the surface for the truth. It is a practice that you must use on everything, every issue.
31 May 2009
at 2:01 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
Hello Jonathan Kealing,
Are you going to let the usual left-wing users degrade the right and/or Christians here all day long? Look at the comments and the thread is barely a few hours old.
What is LJW going to do about the continual barrage of attacks on conservatives and Christians? Let it go unchecked? This was one lone nut as far as we know who shot Tiller, not a conservative/Christian conspiracy.
I'm not posting on this thread anymore, and most conservatives should proceed with extreme caution.
Why is it like this on LJW on-line? I'm not blaming this on you Jonathan, but who is responsible there? I can have the most offensive comments made about me, but I say one thing even bordering on over the line and it's gone pronto. Like Agnostick saying I'm into “self-gratification”, nothing happens.
Thank You,
Tom Shewmon
31 May 2009
at 2:02 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
The Christian Taliban AKA: Evangelicals caused this.
31 May 2009
at 2:03 p.m.
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jkealing (Jonathan Kealing) says…
Tom-
I'll take down comments that attack specific individuals, but I'm not going to limit criticism of groups of people. I certainly allow all of your comments that talk about “the loony liberals,” etc. Flag comments that you find to be attacking you personally and I'll review them.
Jonathan Kealing
31 May 2009
at 2:05 p.m.
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araker (Anonymous) says…
My prayers go out to the members of Reformation Lutheran Church (who are, you know, Christians) who have suffered through this tragedy this morning, and that they will be able to give the Tiller family the support they need in this time.
31 May 2009
at 2:05 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
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31 May 2009
at 2:05 p.m.
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moveforward (Anonymous) says…
Arhg. How hypocritical… and really sad ; (
31 May 2009
at 2:07 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
This has just begun, Nancy Boy. I loved Tiller. I knew Tiller. I tithed to his PAC. I am pissed and in mourning.
There will be a lot of slams on the Religious Rite from here on out.
And I am not liberal!! I was once GOP, and left the party due to reproductive right issues. I am pro-choice. I vote pro-choice. That is my one and only political party, which doesn't exist in organization.
31 May 2009
at 2:07 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
But Jonathan, I just read your answer, but beobachter *specifically* said me, Marion, Godot, Parkay and Sigmund share the blame for Tiller's murder. How does that not more than violate your policies?
Thanks,
Tom
31 May 2009
at 2:08 p.m.
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Eride (Anonymous) says…
So it is morally wrong to abort a fetus but perfectly fine to murder a human being?
Wow, you anti-abortion people really are irrational nut jobs.
31 May 2009
at 2:09 p.m.
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Seamus (Anonymous) says…
You reap what you sow…
31 May 2009
at 2:10 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
The procedure that crushes the fetus skull and vacuums out the brains was invented by a Religious Rite Dr. who created it deliberately to inflame reactions. It is never used in practice.
You are thoughtless to believe that this procedure was used by Tiller. His procedure is far less inflammatory and dramatic.”
Marion writes:
Machi, are you for real?
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/ha…
From the citation in the Dr's own words:
“The surgeon introduces a large grasping forcep, such as Bierer or Hern, through the vaginal and cervical canals into the corpus of the uterus. Based upon his knowledge of fetal orientation, he moves the tip of the instrument carefully towards the fetal lower extremities. When the instrument appears on the sonogram screen, the surgeon is able to open and close its jaws to firmly and reliably grasp a lower extremity. The surgeon then … pulls the extremity into the vagina.
…
With a lower extremity in the vagina, the surgeon uses his fingers to deliver the opposite lower extremity, then the torso, the shoulders and the upper extremities.
The skull lodges at the internal cervical os. Usually there is not enough dilation for it to pass through. The fetus is oriented dorsum, or spine up.
At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left hand along the back of the fetus and “hooks” the shoulders of the fetus wit the index and ring fingers (palm down). Next he slides the tip of the middle finger along the spine towards the skull while applying traction to the shoulders and lower extremities. The middle finger lifts and pushes the anterior cervical lip out of the way.
While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt curved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.
Reassessing proper placement of the closed scissors tip and safe elevation of the cervix, the surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull or into the foramen magnum. Having safely entered the skull, he spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening.
The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull contents. With the catheter still in place, he applies traction to the fetus, removing it completely from the patient.”
31 May 2009
at 2:10 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
misplacedcheesehead, 12:27 post - ditto
31 May 2009
at 2:11 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
I wish I could even remotely share your feelings Machiavelli mania. Half a million babies have no voice, some that would be 35 years old now.
31 May 2009
at 2:15 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says… “Alia says…..Sigmund, I'm glad you don't worry about the truth getting in the way of your hatemongering. Partial birth abortions have been illegal in Kansas since 1999.”
Not exactly true, here is the law as I understand it:
65-6721. Prohibition against partial birth abortion on viable fetus, exceptions; partial birth abortion, defined; report of determination; criminal penalties. (a) No person shall perform or induce a partial birth abortion on a viable fetus UNLESS such person is a physician and has a documented referral from another physician not legally or financially affiliated with the physician performing or inducing the abortion and both physicians determine: (1) The abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman; or (2) a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major physical or mental function of the pregnant woman.
http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-s…
Just because you don't like the facts doesn't mean you can misstate and/or disregard them.
31 May 2009
at 2:15 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says… This has just begun, Nancy Boy. I loved Tiller. I knew Tiller. I tithed to his PAC. I am pissed and in mourning.”
There are plenty of odd people who post on the LJW, but this has *got* to be some sort of performance artist rather than a real poster. No one is this crazy… or maybe the “mania” is a clinical diagnosis?
31 May 2009
at 2:16 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
Note: LJW has had at least 10 minutes to remove beobachter libelous remark about five specific conservative posters stating we share responsibility for Tiller's murder and it remains, as does the user.
31 May 2009
at 2:16 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
What babies?? We cannot communicate on this until the word terms are defined.
AND this is one area where your Religious Rite inflammatory terminology, which I will not use, I refuse to use, will not be able to support your case.
IOW, get the inflammation out of your words and then we can talk.
31 May 2009
at 2:16 p.m.
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riverat (Joe Hyde) says…
The murder of Dr. Tiller could have been a contract killing performed by a hired assasin. But most likely the shooter is someone long burdened by intense feelings of anger over the general issue of abortion. If this is the case, I would theorize that the killer, when planning this homicide, saw himself as something of an avenging angel — a good person who felt he had to take Dr. Tiller's life as a means of upholding some kind of strict fundamentalist religious belief. Most likely a Christian-based belief.
Interesting, then, that after gunning down Dr. Tiller — at a church yet — the killer did not lay down his firearm and remain at the scene so that he could personally take credit and responsibility, and receive contratulations from fellow Christians for his “right thinking” act.
Instead, he fled. By fleeing the scene he demonstrates in a way words can not, that he recognizes what he did was not only legally and morally wrong, it is also repugnant to the fundamental beliefs embraced by both himself and the majority of Christians.
Who are the people who motivated this man to such a state of lethal destructiveness? How long did it take to get him to this point?
31 May 2009
at 2:16 p.m.
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grammaddy (Anonymous) says…
Hurray for all the “pro-lifers” and their selective Christianity. This is what we have come to??!
My heart goes out to the family of Mr. Tiller. If I believed in prayer, my prayers would too.
Abortion has been legal in this country since 1973, take that up with your legislators.
31 May 2009
at 2:17 p.m.
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jkealing (Jonathan Kealing) says…
Tom,
I'd already removed the original comment by beo. That was certainly out of bounds. I missed the comments where that comment was quoted. They're all gone now.
Jonathan
31 May 2009
at 2:17 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Gee Marion amongst all your other skills, you are an expert on late term abortions. How many have you performed?
31 May 2009
at 2:19 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
Thanks, Jonathan. I never thought I'd be accused of being an accomplice to murder on this forum.
31 May 2009
at 2:19 p.m.
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edjayhawk (Anonymous) says…
One more eye sore for the “great” state of Kansas….BTK, Anti-Evolution, Fred Phelps…the list continues to grow.
I say annex Wichita into Oklahoma!
31 May 2009
at 2:19 p.m.
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denak (Anonymous) says…
The individual who shot and killed George Tiller is not Christian and is not Pro-life.
It is reprehensible that he took this man's life and to have done it in front of his family and in a church no less shows a marked disregard for all that is sacred.
It is my sincere hope that this individual is found, tried and found guilty for his deeds.
If he truly believes that he is Christian, he would turn himself in, and beg forgiveness from God and from the Tiller family.
Dena
31 May 2009
at 2:19 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
The fact is, the Religious Rite are murderously sore losers. They were totally unable to stop Tiller from gracing this world with his skills and willingness to use those skills. And so they murdered him. Right to life is not the issue here. It is the need for power over all.
AND I will not allow that power-mongering to go unchecked. I will redouble my efforts to fight the Religious Rite until they hang their porn-addicted heads in shame.
31 May 2009
at 2:21 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Well, darn it!
There goes a great oppoortunity for me to keep beo and bea spinning like tops.
Party poopers!
31 May 2009
at 2:22 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…AND I will not allow that power-mongering to go unchecked. I will redouble my efforts to fight the Religious Rite until they hang their porn-addicted heads in shame.”
lolz
31 May 2009
at 2:22 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Tiller was defeating the Religious Rite at all levels. There is no possible way they are innocent in this murderous act.
31 May 2009
at 2:22 p.m.
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Bubarubu (Anonymous) says…
Wichita Eagle is now reporting they've got the suspect in custody, presser at 4.
31 May 2009
at 2:23 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Jonathan, good luck on keeping this thread under control. I know I step out of line occasionally, as do others. Just keep it fair and even handed. That's why you get the big bucks,
31 May 2009
at 2:24 p.m.
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edjayhawk (Anonymous) says…
Me thinks it might have been a contract for hire killing…
31 May 2009
at 2:26 p.m.
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frwent (Anonymous) says…
Tom Shewmon, might I remind you of the right of free speech? Even disgusting and deplorable speech. While some of the attacks on Christian values are off-the-wall and deplorable, most intelligent people will see them for what they are. Your request to censor these remarks is distressing, as this is the action of a repressive society. You like Korth Korea? Well, why not go there where all the discussion and debate is liimited to what the “dear leader” allows and those that resist are shot.
I certainly do not agree with what a lot of these folks on this blog are saying, but I wil defend to the death (and I have served in the military) their undeniable right to speak their mind, no matter how disagreeable to others this may be. This is the hallmark of a free society.
31 May 2009
at 2:27 p.m.
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one2no (Anonymous) says…
One person has been arrested in merriam ks.
31 May 2009
at 2:28 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Jonathan, good luck on keeping this thread under control. I know I step out of line occasionally..”
Marion writes:
Now there is an understatement if I ever read one.
31 May 2009
at 2:31 p.m.
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Boeing (Anonymous) says…
I hear the person was arrested on I-35 NB in Gardner, the car is registered in Merriam.
31 May 2009
at 2:32 p.m.
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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…
Sigmund,
Please refer to page 3 of this link. There have been no partial birth abortions performed in Kansas since 1999.
http://www.kdheks.gov/hci/abortion_su…
31 May 2009
at 2:33 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
And now we will be barraged by anti-abortionist justifying what he did.
31 May 2009
at 2:34 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-george-til…
31 May 2009
at 2:35 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Gee, I wonder how many more posts of Marion's will be removed?
31 May 2009
at 2:36 p.m.
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bkgarner (Brent Garner) says…
I find it intriguing that the vast majority of the people posting here want to, without proof, blame this crime on Christians or church attenders in general, or on those who oppose abortion. How absolutely intriguing. I suppose those who have posted thus would have gone along with the Nazi propaganda which blamed everything bad in Germany on the Jews. How absolutely intelluctually vacuous. Perhaps, before you start calling for a police state, the disenfranchisement of those you disagree with, and the incarceration of those with whom you disagree, you should wait until the facts of this crime are investigated and its perpetrator caught. I doubt very much that there is any conspiracy involved here.
As for the reference to “nut” cases on the right hand of the political spectrum, let us not forget the terrible things that “nut” cases on the left have done in this country. To whom do I refer? Let's see. The Weathermen, The Black Panthers, The SDS, The Symbionese Liberation Army, and that nut case who lived in the shack and mailed bombs to corporate offices—sorry, his name escapes me at the moment.
Lunacy is not solely owned by any group or movement.
31 May 2009
at 2:38 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Interesting. The Religious Rite Killer wasn't driving a pink car. It was blue. Powder blue.
31 May 2009
at 2:38 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
bea, don't you know, Marion is special?
Unlike those of us who make mistakes and occasionally step over the line.
Have you ever seen a post of Marion's removed?
31 May 2009
at 2:39 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“bkgarner (Brent Garner) says… Lunacy is not solely owned by any group or movement.”
bkgarner FTW!
31 May 2009
at 2:42 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Brent, I agree. Until we know for sure, I think we should stick with what we know — murderer used a gun to kill another person, which will be just one of several murders with a gun committed in our country today.
31 May 2009
at 2:43 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
If someone like, Phred Phelps had been the victim, how the looney left would be responding.
31 May 2009
at 2:44 p.m.
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satar (Anonymous) says…
This is why i do not belive in god…everybody that i know that belives just use it as a way to justifly what works for them…come on how many wars have been started in his name and how many lifes have been lost in his name he is a loving god.. come on what a joke…
31 May 2009
at 2:44 p.m.
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Sparko (Anonymous) says…
“Astonished to learn he went to church?” I am astonished by the violent hypocrisy of supposed Christians. Kansas should always have remained a progressive state of tolerance and ethics. I am ashamed. This is what religious terrorism looks like. The Taliban the Great Plains.
31 May 2009
at 2:45 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Murder is murder, even if it was someone like Phelps or even you or me, it's wrong and is not justified.
31 May 2009
at 2:45 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Beo, yes, I have seen many of Marion's posts removed. So many, in fact, that were it anyone else I am sure she/he would be banned. Heck, he even recently had at least seven posts removed from a “blog” story he wrote! Yet he remains. I have no idea why.
31 May 2009
at 2:46 p.m.
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jl72 (Anonymous) says…
Right Wing Christian Extremists = American Taliban
Kansas = Swat Valley, Pakistan
Sad day to be a Kansan.
31 May 2009
at 2:46 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
There is no doubt whatsoever, to myself and others, that I have deep-seated resentment towards the Religious Rite. Never made any claims otherwise. They chased me out of a GOP affiliation where I was active for Traditional GOP causes. They sought to restrict my personal and individual freedoms, including my choices to do with my body as I so choose. They sought to seriously alter what my children are taught in school regarding science.
They bomb. They maime. They Kill!! All for an ideology against which this country was founded.
They are terrorists!! And the counter-terrorism community sees them as such.
This is my life's cause. That a women have the right to legally access medically-safe abortions, if she so chooses.
This is where I tithe. This is where I fight.
31 May 2009
at 2:48 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
In fact, the Religious Rite chased me out of Christianity altogether, and enticed a search for the truth about Christianity and it's manipulations of the words of a pretty great guy.
31 May 2009
at 2:48 p.m.
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jkealing (Jonathan Kealing) says…
We saw this photo via Twitter, allegedly of the car the suspect was driving pulled over on I-35 in Johnson County.
http://twitpic.com/6cq3u
Jonathan Kealing
Online editor
31 May 2009
at 2:50 p.m.
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athfo (Anonymous) says…
edjayhawk said: “I say annex Wichita into Oklahoma!”
Hmmm… let's see. Dr. George Tiller worked in Wichita, yet:
“Sedgwick County officials have confirmed that within the hour, a person matching the description of a suspect in the Tiller murder was taken into custody in the Kansas City area.
According to the Wichita Eagle, a suspect driving a vehicle matching the description broadcast by police was arrested in Gardner, near Kansas City. The vehicle was believed to be registered in Merriam, another Kansas City suburb.”
Annex the entire Kansas City area into Missouri!
Huh?
31 May 2009
at 2:51 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Marion: “If someone like, Phred Phelps had been the victim, how the looney left would be responding.”
I'm not sure how the “looney” left would be responding, but I'm not surprised to find that you equate a doctor who performed a medical service with an attention-seeking “preacher” of hate against gays. Sure, those on the left are the loons. Sure they are.
31 May 2009
at 2:53 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
bea, you're right. Checked Marion's history. He has quite a few removed. I guess I missed them since I tend tend to ignore his constant and continual rants.
31 May 2009
at 2:55 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
You will note that us loony lefts don't kill, maime, bomb, like the Religious Rite does.
31 May 2009
at 2:56 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
beobachter (Anonymous) says… “Jonathan, good luck on keeping this thread under control. I know I step out of line occasionally, as do others. Just keep it fair and even handed. That's why you get the big bucks,”
beobachter (Anonymous) says… “Murder is murder, even if it was someone like Phelps or even you or me, it's wrong and is not justified.”
As I too have been known to step out of line, I completely agree with beobachter . Good job Jonathan.
31 May 2009
at 3 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
athfo, funny last time I looked Merriam was close to Topeka. Since I live in Lawrence, should I now say I live in a KC surburb?
Or does the KC area now comprise the entire Midwest? Are Wichita, Omaha, Des Moines, St Louis considered near KC?
31 May 2009
at 3:01 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
About that hatred towards males: if I may correct your impression, the hatred is towards control-mongering men, in Operation Rescue, in abusive families, in alcoholism, in dating, in the workplace, in all levels of public service.
There are men out there, and I am married to one, that has found that happy place where he is highly companionable and a good friend. May all men adjust their tendencies to be more like my delightful spouse. This marriage is without the need to control each other. Take a lesson.
Being witchy (misspell intentional) is virtue. Respect it.
31 May 2009
at 3:02 p.m.
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jkealing (Jonathan Kealing) says…
beo-
Nah, Merriam is definitely a suburb of Kansas City. Off Johnson Drive, north of Overland Park.
Jonathan Kealing
Online editor
31 May 2009
at 3:02 p.m.
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beatle919 (Marcy McGuffie) says…
Merriam is NE of Johnson County, Beo.
31 May 2009
at 3:03 p.m.
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beatle919 (Marcy McGuffie) says…
I meant in NE Johnson County
31 May 2009
at 3:03 p.m.
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cms (Anonymous) says…
Absolutely tragic.
31 May 2009
at 3:07 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Marion, find a more objective source, because this isn't going to cut it for a rebuttal:
Marion writes:
Machi, are you for real?
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/ha…
31 May 2009
at 3:08 p.m.
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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…
frwent, is your 2:26 for real? You apparently didn't see what went around here prior to The Chosen One being annointed. A conservative had to watch every word written very closely–—the left ? Notsamuch. When W was in office and every other thread was a Bush bashing fest, you have to be kidding about freedom of speech, right?
31 May 2009
at 3:11 p.m.
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TheYetiSpeaks (Anonymous) says…
I find the murder of Dr. Tiller disgusting. I am not much of a religious person, but I also find the broad generalization of groups such as Christians, pro-lifers, and conservatives to be disgusting as well. Just because these groups believe that abortion is wrong does not make them complicit in Dr. Tiller's murder. It is generalizations such as these that will cause more needless violence in the future.
31 May 2009
at 3:12 p.m.
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Did_I_say_that (Anonymous) says…
Beo is thinking of Meriden; north of Topeka on Rt. 4.
31 May 2009
at 3:13 p.m.
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lawrenceguy40 (Anonymous) says…
Tom - you disappoint me. Such whining is best left to liberals.
Is Tiller in heaven or hell now?
31 May 2009
at 3:13 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says… “Sigmund, Please refer to page 3 of this link. There have been no partial birth abortions performed in Kansas since 1999.”
Here is your original post…
Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says… “Sigmund says ….Nope. Fortunately modern medicine in 2009 has many tools to prevent such tragedies and it is an extremely rare case that a child needs to be aborted in the third trimester to literally “save the mothers life.” Still it could happen and in those one in a million cases where this arises the mother should have the right to make any decision she likes including killing her baby girl/boy by partially birthing the child and then crushing its skull and sucking their brains out, or chopping the child limb by limb and vacuuming from her body, just days before live birth as sad as that would be.”
Alia says…..Sigmund, I'm glad you don't worry about the truth getting in the way of your hatemongering. Partial birth abortions have been illegal in Kansas since 1999.”
I was simply pointing out that under extremely tragic and rare circumstances late term abortions (including partial birth) might be necessary. I also pointed out that fortunately today it is almost never necessary, but if necessary it is LEGAL in Kansas. As for truth getting in the way of hate mongering, might I suggest you look in the mirror?
31 May 2009
at 3:13 p.m.
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KLATTU (Anonymous) says…
“When W was in office and every other thread was a Bush bashing fest…
One out of two threads is pretty good considering his approval rating. It should have been 4 out of 5 threads would be Bush bashers to reflect the national opinion.
31 May 2009
at 3:14 p.m.
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George_Braziller (Anonymous) says…
Guess I over-estimated by about three hours.
__________________________________
George_Braziller (Anonymous) says…
The guy's driving powder blue car with a vanity plate? Obviously not the sharpest tack in the box. He might as well be driving an ice cream truck with faux leopard seat covers and fuzzy dice hanging from the rear-view mirror. He'll be in custody by 6 p.m.
___________________________________________
Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
Tiller was shot dead at church this morning.
Via KWCH: Shooting suspect vehicle: powder blue '93 Ford Taurus, K-state vanity plate, tag 225 BAB.
31 May 2009
at 3:15 p.m.
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mike_blur (Mike Blur) says…
right_thinker, I thought you weren't going to post any more in this thread re: your comment at 2:01?
31 May 2009
at 3:16 p.m.
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notajayhawk (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“There is no doubt whatsoever, to myself and others, that I have deep-seated resentment towards the Religious Rite.”
No kiddin'. Ya' think? Glad it doesn't bias your opinions.
****************************
I am a conservative, and a Christian, and pro-life. And the murder of a man, in church, in front of his wife, makes me sick. Almost as much as the looney-left wingnuts of Larryville who inundated this thread within minutes with their vitriolic hatred. Most of them could care less about Dr. Tiller, it was just another chance to spew their hatred against Christians.
While you're all ranting, try to wrap your tiny little pinheads around this: If all Christians are murdering hate-mongers, why are you praising the deceased, who was killed while serving as an usher in a Lutheran church?
But don't let little things like facts get in your way. Please continue spewing.
31 May 2009
at 3:23 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“
none2 (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Don't bring a child into this world!
It is hard to protect them from the likes of thoughtless people like George Bush, Operation Rescue terrorists, and the extreme Religious Rite.
=============================
What an illogical, emotional comment.”
Tell that to military recruiters. LOL.
31 May 2009
at 3:25 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Marion, find a more objective source, because this isn't going to cut it for a rebuttal:”
Marion writes:
You should be careful what you ask for…………………..
How about this citaion:
http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/i/n…
'Intact dilation and extraction is an abortion technique in which the patient's cervix is dilated and fetus extracted in substantially one piece. The term “dilation and extraction” or “D&X” was coined in 1992 by Dr. Martin Haskell, who developed the procedure as an alternative to dilation and evacuation or D&E (see below). Slightly later, the term “intact dilation and evacuation” was proposed by Dr. James McMahon. The term “intact D&X” was later settled upon by combining elements of both proposals.
In the 2 to 3 day procedure, the cervix is dilated. The fetus is delivered feet-first. The surgeon inserts a sharp object into the back of the fetus' head, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains and its fluids are extracted. The head of the fetus contracts at this point and allows the fetus to be more easily removed from the uterus. The fetus can then be removed with less damage to the woman. The technique was pioneered by Dr. Martin Haskell in 1992.”
Or this one:
http://www.drugs.com/dict/dilation-an…
“dilation and extraction
a form of abortion in which the cervix is dilated and the fetus extracted in pieces using surgical forceps; technique used to complete a second trimester spontaneous abortion or as a form of induced abortion.”
Or this one:
http://www.alternativespregnancycente…
How many more citations would you like?
31 May 2009
at 3:25 p.m.
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jhokfan (Anonymous) says…
Tom Shewmon. Stop being such a nancy boy. My god, why don't you tell your mommy on us while you're at it.
31 May 2009
at 3:26 p.m.
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misplacedcheesehead (Anonymous) says…
Toda, “Yeti”. Well said. There ARE many of us pro-lifers out here who do NOT believe anyone had the right to murder Tiller.
31 May 2009
at 3:26 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
notajayhawk (Anonymous) says…
I am a conservative, and a Christian, and pro-life. And the murder of a man, in church, in front of his wife, makes me sick.
=========================
I seriously doubt that he was gunned down in front of his wife. The Wichita Eagle stated that he was one of 6 ushers. I would tend to think that his wife was probably already seated in the chapel at the time of the killing.
31 May 2009
at 3:33 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
notajayhawk, am hoping I don't know you and hope I never will. “tiny pin heads”? You are not a true Jesus follower with the need to publically insult like that. It is far easier to give up a religion than to eliminate the hypocrisy you just demonstrated with your senseless insult. Totally eliminates you as a true Jesus follower.
My dislike towards Christianity is also deep-seated. A religion based on manipulations and errors.
It is interesting that the US population is with me on this as church attendance continues to diminish in great proportions in this country. I am right on this. Look at the US census Bush wanted to eliminate (so we wouldn't know that Christianity is diminishing in numbers in this country). Look at all the efforts made to increase attendance in all churches. Look at the way one of the biggest growing church participating in this country is Islam, of which I do not belong, probably never will.
Look at how ineffective Christianity is at reaching the masses.
Look at how the late great Pope, a man I too loved in many ways, said the bible needed to be rewritten in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi finds.
31 May 2009
at 3:33 p.m.
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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…
Sig,
You honestly don't believe your graphic description of a partial birth abortion is hate mongering? Even when I provide a link that no partial birth abortions have been performed in Kansas since 1999, you still attack me rather than admit your graphic description of a procedure that hasn't occurred in Kansas in ten years has nothing to do with this story of George Tiller being murdered and was intended to evoke a negative emotional reaction about third trimester abortions. I realize that you will not admit that was your intent based on your comments on this story and others. So be it.
31 May 2009
at 3:36 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“
none2 (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Don't bring a child into this world!
It is hard to protect them from the likes of thoughtless people like George Bush, Operation Rescue terrorists, and the extreme Religious Rite.
=============================
What an illogical, emotional comment.”
Tell that to military recruiters. LOL.
=================================
Again, another illogical comment. You need counseling or some kind of help. All you spew is a bunch of hysteria.
The fact is you thrive on anti-abortion comments; they are your raison d'etre. You should also consider going back to the GOP as they love this kind of paranoia.
31 May 2009
at 3:40 p.m.
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Multidisciplinary (Anonymous) says…
I just got back..about 150 comments in 3 hours.
This has to be some kind of record.
31 May 2009
at 3:42 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
none2:” I seriously doubt that he was gunned down in front of his wife. “
_____
His wife serves in choir. dont be too sure.
31 May 2009
at 3:42 p.m.
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BigPrune (Anonymous) says…
The lady that shot Tiller in the arms 15 years ago is still in prison. The guy that burned down Boardwalk Apartments killing 3 people got 4 years.
I wonder if abortion was the motivator for this killing like everyone here seems to presume, except monkeyhawk?…
31 May 2009
at 3:46 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
I'm sure glad that Google exists to give Dr. Marion his medical knowledge.
31 May 2009
at 3:46 p.m.
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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…
Big Prune,
In terms of motivation for the murder, it is too soon to say for sure. But someone at the church reportedly recognized the shooter as a fairly regular protester at the church, according to a story I saw on CNN.
31 May 2009
at 3:50 p.m.
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inklines (Anonymous) says…
Most of the religion bashing on this thread reminds me of a quote that I heard a long time ago. I don't know who it is attributed to but it goes something like this; “If you tell a lie loud enough and long enough, people will begin to believe it.”
There is NO evidence that ANY organization that opposed Dr. Tiller was involved in his murder. There is NO evidence that ANY of these organizations had a desire to see him dead. As a Chistian, (I do not use that term loosely for I am unashamedly a believer, student and follower of Jesus Christ), the last thing I would want is to see Dr. Tiller dead because there would no longer be any opportunity for him to repent and receive forgiveness for the murder of children. We loved Dr. Tiller even though we did not agree or approve of his actions. We, like our father, do not want to see anyone perish. As Christians, we do not fear the hateful words of many of the posters on this thread for we know from whom they originate. “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” Ephesians 6: 12 NIV . And, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved”. - Jesus Christ, Matthew 10: 22, NIV. We do not fear the ongoing degradation of our 1st amendment rights to the free expression of our religious faith and free speech or the coming persecution of Christians in this country because we know that it is our Lord who will win in the end.
31 May 2009
at 3:50 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…
Sig,
You honestly don't believe your graphic description of a partial birth abortion is hate mongering? Even when I provide a link that no partial birth abortions have been performed in Kansas since 1999,”
Marion writes:
You are carefully selecting your stats, there, Alia!
Dilation and extraction is used to dodge the prohibitions against “partial birth” abortions and here are the stats on D&E from *YOUR* citation:
“Dilation & Evacuation 932 8.8%”
31 May 2009
at 3:55 p.m.
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mcontrary (Anonymous) says…
To those anti-abortionists who think that fetuses have no voice or are the forgotten, it is the mothers who are allowed no voice and are the true forgotten ones. To you, women are walking uteruses and living children do not exist. You are never heard to show concern about the living. You fail to lend your voice to assisting in providing for the health, physical and mental well-being of the babies you have “saved” or their mothers. Shame! Rather than the promoting the hypocrisy of the anti-abortion movement, put your energies toward helping the living and stay out of what is not your business- whatever is in some woman’s womb.
31 May 2009
at 3:55 p.m.
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mommyoffour (Anonymous) says…
Amen! Inklines, I was wanting to say something but I couldn't say everything I was thinking! I think you narrowed it down! Thank you and God Bless you!
31 May 2009
at 4:01 p.m.
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mike_blur (Mike Blur) says…
Inklines…..not yet….
31 May 2009
at 4:02 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
For those interested in dragging out the pro/anti abortion debate, non-partisan stats from 2004-2008 are available here: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ind…
The quick take away is the vast majority of people seeking abortions are young, poor, who inconsistently used (or did not use at all) contraception, and eighty-nine percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
The vast majority of people with anything to say about this topic are not “pro-abortion”. They aren't interested in murder or death, and do not think of themselves this way. Rather, they see themselves as making a difficult, but necessary choice.
Given these attitudes and the strong socio-economic correlations behind who gets abortions and why, the best way to reduce abortions is not murder abortion providers, but rather through social programs. Increased funding for contraception, education and women's health care will do more to reduce abortion in this country than any bullet.
31 May 2009
at 4:03 p.m.
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jhokfan (Anonymous) says…
Thank god I'm not a Christian.
31 May 2009
at 4:03 p.m.
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mike_blur (Mike Blur) says…
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31 May 2009
at 4:08 p.m.
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Orwell (Anonymous) says…
Spin this any way you want from either side – a good chunk of the culpability rests with those who adopt and foster a mindset that conflates an opponent and an enemy. The people – Coulters and Carvilles alike – who make their living stirring up hatred of fellow humans of any philosophy or belief should be deep in reflection and remorse.
Meanwhile, those whose first instinct is to launch verbal attacks (present company very much included) should consider whether their behavior is an early warning of the kind of madness that struck today in Wichita.
31 May 2009
at 4:10 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says… “Sig, You honestly don't believe your graphic description of a partial birth abortion is hate mongering?”
I'm sorry you don't like the graphical facts. I guess that allows you to twist or misstate them (“Partial birth abortions have been illegal in Kansas since 1999”) or to label those who accurately report them as a “hatemonger.” If I were to graphically report the facts of using a coat hanger to perform a back alley abortion in the case where a women's life would be in danger from a child birth, would that also be hatemongering?
No matter your position, the facts of abortion aren't pretty. But the only thing you can say about those who accurately state them compared to those that twist or misstate them is that the former is truthful and the latter is less than truthful.
31 May 2009
at 4:14 p.m.
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BigPrune (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 4:15 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 4:17 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
Thank you Orwell for a proper and intelluctually honest post:
“Spin this any way you want from either side – a good chunk of the culpability rests with those who adopt and foster a mindset that conflates an opponent and an enemy. The people – Coulters and Carvilles alike – who make their living stirring up hatred of fellow humans of any philosophy or belief should be deep in reflection and remorse.”
Well said.
31 May 2009
at 4:22 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
Yeah, isn't Etheredge in the Sedgwick County Jail, with a million dollar bond sitting over his head? Does he even have any ties to KC or Merriam? Without further info from authorities, that doesn't pass the smell test.
31 May 2009
at 4:24 p.m.
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Liberty275 (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 4:28 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
Good Lord Johnathan, you removed my post because I corrected an idiot for incorrectly posting someone's picture as the “Perp”
What wasy so damn bad about my posting stating that Thomas Etheredge was already in jail for fraud and theft in the West World in Wichita fiasco?
What is wrong with that post?
How ignorant can you possibly be?
Moderator or moron.
I lean to the “moron” part.
31 May 2009
at 4:29 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Liberty, why would it take “guts” to lie?
31 May 2009
at 4:33 p.m.
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jkealing (Jonathan Kealing) says…
Asbestos—
Hey, easy there. Your post still contained the link to the photo in question. If you want to repost with everything but the link, you can do that.
Jonathan Kealing
31 May 2009
at 4:35 p.m.
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TacoBob (Anonymous) says…
Condolences to the Tiller family. A terrible tragedy indeed.
And shame on all of you here that condemn Christians for this act. Every 'side' has its fruitcakes, and those that grab onto an issue and claim to be part of a group and its beliefs. This person was part of the fringe, and using his completely wrong actions to lash out at groups you don't like is foolish. He has no ties to reality, and is roundly condemned by all (most) regardless of their beliefs. Cheap and weak shots at best.
31 May 2009
at 4:35 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Maybe if one or more of those Lutherans, who are Christians also, as was Tiller, had possessed a concealed weapons permit, the Goodly Doctor might have been saved.
31 May 2009
at 4:36 p.m.
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ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says…
I forgot about that.
I am the moron, then.
My apologies Johnathan, YOU were correct.
31 May 2009
at 4:37 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Marion, I don't know many Dr.s that go to bambooweb to access their policies and procedures. I searched for real medical sites that teach or inform of the procedure you have strangely posted. I have never found one that mentions this procedure but there are other procedures mention that meet the same end. IOW, you are getting this information from a non-medical site and it invalidates the post and the rebuttal.
31 May 2009
at 4:38 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
So Christians are to carry guns to church now? This is a good reason not! to attend services.
31 May 2009
at 4:41 p.m.
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chargdup (Anonymous) says…
“Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
You will note that us loony lefts don't kill, maime, bomb, like the Religious Rite does.”
You're uninformed. For starters, please listen to the “Turncoat” episode of This American Life, available here: http://thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Epi…
Then, revisit the 1960s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherm…)
If you're human, you're capable of violent, extremist tendencies, regardless of your political position.
31 May 2009
at 4:42 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
The Religious Rite are a strange, small sect of Christians, and only around 11% of the US population. If I have defamed Christians, it comes from their manipulated, deceitful religion, not with the murderous act that came today.
However, it is and should be noted that the Religious Rite, classified as domestic terrorists by the US intelligence community, are Christian.
31 May 2009
at 4:44 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
No, I am not going to go to those sites. While you may not know about propaganda, I do. Wiki is a dubious reflection of information and I seldom honor and respect it's contents.
31 May 2009
at 4:48 p.m.
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RoeDapple (Anonymous) says…
As a male, registered Republican, church going, weapons enthusiast, I feel no connection to this murderer whatsoever. My faith is personal, I expect no one to agree with me, nor will I push others to believe. My politics, while predominately Republican, allow me to vote for who I think is the better candidate. My weapons, although potentially deadly, are my hobby, much like your golf clubs or your gardening. I have never used them against another human being and would prefer to keep it that way. They are stored in a concrete vault so access is denied to others who might misuse them. I consider abortion a woman's issue and have no intention of voicing an opinion unless I become pregnant.
Yet, I can state an opinion on any other of the above interests and be inundated with posts referring to me as being a 'wingnut', 'ultra right', 'pro-life murderering hypocrite' etc. by people who are so angry I would be extremely frightened of if they chose to arm themselves. To me this explains so much about them. They apparently have so little control over themselves and their emotions they must think everyone else is as whacked out as they are.
31 May 2009
at 4:49 p.m.
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jumpin_catfish (Anonymous) says…
Whoa, Machiavelli_mania, I think you need help. Stop posting and go to the emergency now before have a stroke or something.
31 May 2009
at 4:49 p.m.
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jumpin_catfish (Anonymous) says…
Whoa, Machiavelli_mania, I think you need help. Stop posting and go to the emergency now before you have a stroke or something.
31 May 2009
at 4:51 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Are you saying that the bombing and maiming and killing of people within abortion clinics, or in association with providing abortions, were not done by the Religious Rite? Do you really want me to believe that, despite all proof that they are?
“If you're human, you're capable of violent, extremist tendencies, regardless of your political position.”
Try this, chargdup:
Parents Who Kill Their Children Not Psychopaths but Have Emotional Dysfunction
Pauline Anderson.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/7…
May 29, 2009 — Unlike other murderers, parents who kill their own children are not typically psychopathic, socially isolated substance abusers with a long criminal record but may have distinct emotional problems that include the inability to feel remorse or empathy, according to a new study.
––––––—
You are going to have to get there in a manner in which you feel best. I have access.
Needless to day, Christianity is supposed to teach the ability to feel remorse and empathy. But it just isn't getting it done in some churches today. Some churches are more interested in politics than in matters of the soul.
31 May 2009
at 4:52 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
feeble (Anonymous) says…
For those interested in dragging out the pro/anti abortion debate, non-partisan stats from 2004-2008 are available here: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ind…
…
Given these attitudes and the strong socio-economic correlations behind who gets abortions and why, the best way to reduce abortions is not murder abortion providers, but rather through social programs. Increased funding for contraception, education and women's health care will do more to reduce abortion in this country than any bullet.
============================
I'm hoping that you are somewhat in the middle this whole debate. That center is what needs to grow if we are ever going to get anywhere past this whole debate.
You are so right that education and medical services are so important. Conservatives cannot condemn both health care funding and expect abortion rates to go down. You also cannot condemn condoms, sterilizations, and other non-abortive methods to prevent pregnancy. You also cannot stigmatize pregnant unmarried girls/women. Some make women out to either be virgins or sinners. Plus they see women as hens whose only purpose is to “lay eggs”. Those attitudes have to stop. Likewise, society has to insist that boys/men take responsibility for their part in reproduction. It took TWO to tangle — not just the girl.
That being said, the other side also has to be willing to compromise too. IF those services are in place and well funded as well as POST-birth services for those that do bring their babies to term (either to keep them or give them up to adoption), then they have to understand that society has a problem with totally elective abortions if the sex was consensual.
31 May 2009
at 4:54 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“Whoa, Machiavelli_mania, I think you need help. Stop posting and go to the emergency now before you have a stroke or something.”
Like you care for a nameless, faceless person!
Hey, this issue is my life's cause. It is what I choose to fight. It is deeply rooted following my flight from the morphed GOP.
And I have no issues with blood pressure, and take no medications for it, stokes are now pretty easy to control. I will continue to post.
And you will stop the need to control.
31 May 2009
at 4:56 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I am in agreement with this, Feeble:
“I'm hoping that you are somewhat in the middle this whole debate. That center is what needs to grow if we are ever going to get anywhere past this whole debate.”
31 May 2009
at 4:56 p.m.
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sciencegeek (Anonymous) says…
All the anti-abortion groups expressing shock about Tiller's murder—they all have blood on their hands. It is their incendiary rhetoric about “baby-killers”, “cockroaches”, etc. that led to this. Unfortunately, THEY aren't the only ones that must reap what they sow. God have mercy on THEIR souls, not just on Dr. Tiller's.
31 May 2009
at 4:58 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
RoeDapple, You are a person that would be pleasant to meet. Good post.
31 May 2009
at 5:01 p.m.
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hodgesmom (Dayle Hodges) says…
Regardless of my personal opinions regarding abortion, the murder of Dr. Tiller solved nothing. I pray (yes I'm a Christian AND a Liberal) that his family is respected and not harrassed in their grief.
31 May 2009
at 5:04 p.m.
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sci4all (Anonymous) says…
For those who are claiming that Tiller's death isn't related to his profession, see http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/a…
_ April 2007: Authorities say Paul Ross Evans placed a homemade bomb in the parking lot of the Austin Women's Health Center in Texas. A bomb squad disposes of the device, which contained two pounds of nails. There are no injuries.
_ Oct. 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian is fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. Militant abortion opponent James Kopp is convicted of the murder in 2003 and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.
_ Jan. 29, 1998: A bomb explodes just outside a Birmingham, Ala., abortion clinic, killing a police officer and wounding several others. Eric Rudolph later pleads guilty to that incident and the deadly bombing at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. He justifies the Alabama bombing in an essay from prison, writing that Jesus would condone “militant action in defense of the innocent.”
_ Jan. 16, 1997: Two bomb blasts an hour apart rock an Atlanta building containing an abortion clinic. Seven people are injured. Rudolph is charged by federal authorities in October 1998.
_ Dec. 30, 1994: John Salvi opens fire with a rifle inside two Boston-area abortion clinics, killing two receptionists and wounding five others. Sentenced to life without parole, he kills himself in prison in 1996.
_ Nov. 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis, who performs abortions in Vancouver, Canada, is shot in the leg while eating breakfast at home.
_ July 29, 1994: Dr. John Bayard Britton and his volunteer escort, James H. Barrett, are slain outside a Pensacola, Fla., abortion clinic. Barrett's wife, June, is wounded in the attack. Paul J. Hill, 40, a former minister and anti-abortion activist, is later convicted of murder and sentenced to death.
_ Aug. 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller is shot in the arms as he drives out of parking lot at his Wichita, Kan., clinic. Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon is later convicted and sentenced to 11 years in prison.
_ March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn is shot to death outside Pensacola, Fla., clinic, becoming the first U.S. doctor killed during an anti-abortion demonstration. Michael Griffin is convicted and serving a life sentence.
31 May 2009
at 5:05 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Ignorance and hate abounds.
A terrible thing that this man's life was taken from him. Likely by a mentally unstable or confused individual. Unfortunately, this lunatic only succeeded in creating a martyr. A sad day all around.
31 May 2009
at 5:06 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“Given these attitudes and the strong socio-economic correlations behind who gets abortions and why, the best way to reduce abortions is not murder abortion providers, but rather through social programs. Increased funding for contraception, education and women's health care will do more to reduce abortion in this country than any bullet.”
I think also that we need to get rid of, and perhaps have, if Palin's daughter is any example, the out-dated stigma that comes with unplanned, extra-marital pregnancies. This is not the 1940-1950's, where it was great scandal to be pregnant outside of marriage. Society is improving it's view on human frailties and mistakes.
Sometimes abortion is simply an option in determining the self-direction of a woman's future. It is a responsible and valid option.
Defining things as good or bad makes the world a horrible place to live. We all suffer from making mistakes. We all are greater people by learning to forgive. (and that is a lesson I will today ponder, following the angst and sadness of earlier today)
31 May 2009
at 5:10 p.m.
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Liberty275 (Anonymous) says…
Beatrice,
Sometimes facing up to the truth takes guts. I don't fault you for believing a woman has the right to do with her body as she wishes. I agree with you; in fact I think all people have the right to do anything they want with their own bodies and anything inside their bodies. However anortion means one minute a person is living inside a woman and 5 minutes later someone has done a few things to kill that person. Yeah, its legal, yeah, its the woman's natural right to want it killed, but at the end of the day, its murder, plain and simple. A person has with intent ended the life of another human. Even a parasitic human is still a human.
When you have the guts to admit it is murder and you still support it because its legal and a woman's natural right, and you no longer feel the need to wrap up your beliefs in pretty little euphemisms then you will own those beliefs. Right now you are just parroting what you have been taught and covering up the ugly reality because you cant bear it.
As for you guys that keep equating the right-wingers with violence, I have a few words. Stalin, il, pot, weather underground, jim jones. Sure, you guys arent jim jones, but the christians posting on this board haven't killed abortionists either.
Lest you try grouping me in with people that believe in gods, don't bother. I knew god wasn't real when I was 8. I've been an atheist longer than most of you have lived. On the other hand, I find people that believe in god to be honest and good people in general (and almost always better people than me). You people that try belittling or persecuting them do nothing but show how little faith you have in yourselves and your belief. Grow up and quit making atheists look like a$$h07es.
31 May 2009
at 5:11 p.m.
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classclown (Anonymous) says…
Somebody forgot to take their medication today. Or mistakenly took it twice.
31 May 2009
at 5:16 p.m.
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jhokfan (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 5:16 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Was it you, classclown?
31 May 2009
at 5:20 p.m.
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vavs0929 (Anonymous) says…
Im astonished that people are so shocked that he was a member of a church—not everyone believes what he chose to do for a living was wrong.
the man who killed him more than likely belonged to a church—does that “astonish” you, too? The most disturbing thing about this was that it happened at a church in front of so many people. Of course he didnt have a bodyguard…he didnt think he needed one at church. To me, this says that his killer knew he wouldnt have any protection. Stalking, pre-meditated murder… what a world we live in.
31 May 2009
at 5:27 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
The Presbytery decided not to take a stance on the issue of abortion. Wise and made with foresight. BUT the issue was an event that split a church in half here in Lawrence, while Ryun tried to wield a sword he did not hold with good grip. He split a Lawrence church in two over the abortion issue, a very dubious act indeed on the part of Ryun.
31 May 2009
at 5:27 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
An acquaintence send me her feelings on the matter in this way:
“When Joan Crawford died in 1977, Bette Davis had the last word in their decades old feud:
“You should never say bad things about the dead, you should only say good. Joan Crawford is dead. Good.”
Marion writes:
Now I don't necessarily agree with the idea but you gotta see the humour in it!
31 May 2009
at 5:29 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
LOL,
Peace, Marion?
Truce?
31 May 2009
at 5:31 p.m.
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artichokeheart (Anonymous) says…
Bless the beasts and the children. Rot in hell Tiller.
31 May 2009
at 5:31 p.m.
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RoeDapple (Anonymous) says…
jhokfan (Anonymous) says…
“Of all the colossally stupid ideas from the gun nut brigade, arming all citizens to cut down on shootings has to be tops. Shootings in the workplace and on our roads and highways would go through the roof. Hell, I might even shoot a few people. I can think of some co-workers I wouldn’t mind blowing away.”
Sounds like you are the very reason some of your co-workers should be applying for CCW permits! They would go through back ground checks, minimal training and be offered additional training to help insure that when you go off your nut someone might be there to keep your destruction minimal.
By the way, since concealed carry has gained acceptance in more and more states, the type of incidents you describe have gone down in numbers, not up. And 'arming all citizens' has never been the goal of CCW proponents.
Look it up.
31 May 2009
at 5:36 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Tiller will be going where free will is honored and applauded, in the afterlife. Free Will is what living is all about for the soul.
31 May 2009
at 5:44 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
LOL,
Peace, Marion?
Truce?”
Marion writes:
I gotta tell you that you are the last person I thought would find the post funny!
Truce?
Yeah, why not?
We both agree that this is a tragic event for all concerned, that the fallout is going to be heavy and come in unimaginable ways and that it's going to take a lot of working together to set things right.
31 May 2009
at 5:51 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Actually Crawford was not that great a gal. That is why I laughed.
Never had animosity towards you. I was always afriad (misspell intentional) you would correct my spelling.
31 May 2009
at 5:51 p.m.
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Irish (Irish Swearingen) says…
I don't understand so many postings on this subject.
Sure it is is bad that a man was murdered, but a lot of people were murdered today.
Since, I did not know the man I am not going to grieve for him.
Sorry, people, I just don't get it.
31 May 2009
at 5:52 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
To set things right, all will have to honor that women have a right to choose. That is the middle ground.
31 May 2009
at 5:55 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I didn't grieve for Elvis or Silverman or John Wayne or…
I won't grieve for any Bush or Cheney or all the rest of the bad guys in this world.
You have the right not to grieve.
31 May 2009
at 5:55 p.m.
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cait48 (Anonymous) says…
In my opinion Operation Rescue is as much responsible for this murder as the perp. They were the ones who published the “Tiller Watch” page on their website. They were the ones who nationally published the addresses of his clinic, his home and his church. They were the ones who incited “hate speech” against Tiller on a daily basis. Randall Terry was the one who dubbed him “Tiller the Killer” and called his clinic a “murder mill” despite the fact that the man was providing a legal service to women and broke no laws.
Every anti-abortion believer on this board who parroted Terry and did not hang their head in shame at the hate tactics and speech used by OR is just as responsible. Whether Tiller's murderer belonged to any organized anti-abortion group or not, your incitement of hate was just as responsible for this happening as the man who pulled the trigger.
Indeed if this murder had occurred in the NorthEast or the West it is my belief that ORs hate speech would be taken into account and Terry would be facing charges of incitement of violence. Sadly, that won't happen in Kansas.
I read the statement that OR made about today's events and wanted to vomit. The sheer hypocrisy of the statement, given the actions of OR in the past, is beyond belief.
31 May 2009
at 6:05 p.m.
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rdragon (M. Lindeman) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I will consider all Religious Rite from this day forward
k i l l e r s !!!!
I will not differentiate. All Religious Rite will be considered killers.
I am pissed as hades on this one.
Tiller was a good man!!!
He did good things!!!
rdragon writes
So are you also saying that all Liberal leftest are killers too? If your going to break out that broad brush, you better make sure you paint the whole canvas.
31 May 2009
at 6:05 p.m.
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76trombones (Anonymous) says…
Scott Roeder is a member of Operation Rescue …
If you Google “Scott Roeder” Operation Rescue, you will get the page, but something seems to be interfering in bringing up the actual page. You can still obtain the Google cache of the old page, and you can Save that as HTML. It looks like the site administrator is, as we speak, trying to scrub it from their pages!!
31 May 2009
at 6:07 p.m.
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TomPaine (Anonymous) says…
Exactly, cait48. Operation Rescue is crying crocodile tears.
31 May 2009
at 6:08 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Yes, I could say that, there are leftist killers. Look at what they are doing to pharma labs and the people in them. Which scares the beejeebees out of me.
But they didn't act today like the Religious Rite has.
31 May 2009
at 6:09 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
76trombones, let's hope you stored that page somewhere so it is not lost forever. Oh never mind, I know there are people out there that did.
31 May 2009
at 6:13 p.m.
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jhokfan (Anonymous) says…
RoeDapple:
There are no studies on a scale grand enough to determine whether concealed weapons would increase or decrease gun violence. I’m not opposed to people owing guns, but it only requires an ounce of common sense to realize that more guns equal more shootings.
And to that jerk on his cell phone who cut me off last week on my way to work, just be thankful I wasn’t packing a weapon.
31 May 2009
at 6:14 p.m.
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Defender (Anonymous) says…
“True, but they do it with great frequency here in America because of the ready availability of guns in our country.”
Just like in many other countries. Sorry beatrice, but your point is moot, if it is a point at all. Look at the international news sometime, it happens everywhere. To say it is because of the access to guns in this country is demonstrably false. People kill people, everyday, everywhere, with all kinds of weapons. Access to a gun only gave this person a weapon to use. He would have done it by other means if he had to.
31 May 2009
at 6:15 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
Just a few of many similar posts from Marion. You can find more using the LJW search box:
_______________________
Marion Lynn Tuesday, July 29, 2008: “Tiller The Killer may well be headed for the Greybar Hotel.With any luck, the Kansas Angel of Death will be locked away for years and I hope that he does drop the soap regularly.”
_______________________________
Marion Lynn Thursday, January 31, 2008 “Adolf Eichmann was anonymous, right up until he wasn't. So it is with the baby killers and those who advocate for Auschwitz On The Plains! They also have their “Wansee Conference” with Tiller as group leader!”
__________________
Marion Lynn Thursday, January 31, 2008
Tiller = Mengele.
___________________
Marion,
You are just one among many here who have engaged in regular hate speech against Dr. Tiller in the past. As Mike Hendrix wrote about the shooting suspect in an online column today in the Star:
“So far, we know very little about the suspect… we already know the identities of his accomplices.
They include every one who has ever called Tiller's late term abortion clinic a murder mill. Who ever called Tiller “Tiller the Killer.”
The groups who spent decades fomenting hate… . ”
Sound familiar, Marian?
31 May 2009
at 6:19 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
76trombones (Anonymous) says…
Scott Roeder is a member of Operation Rescue …
If you Google “Scott Roeder” Operation Rescue, you will get the page, but something seems to be interfering in bringing up the actual page. You can still obtain the Google cache of the old page, and you can Save that as HTML. It looks like the site administrator is, as we speak, trying to scrub it from their pages!!”
Marion writes:
Copying and pasting from Democraticdergorund, or are you “Faryn Balyncd” on that site, who wrote:
“If you Google “Scott Roeder” Operation Rescue, you will get the page, but something seems to be interfering in bringing up the actual page.
You can still obtain the Google cache of the old page, and you can Save that as HTML.
You can also do screen grabs.
But it looks like the site administrator is, as we speak, trying to scrub it from their pages!!”
Marion writes:
I don't tink anyone is “scrubbing” anything; the site is simply overloaded with traffic.
Evn happens to the LJW from time to time.
31 May 2009
at 6:23 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
” A lot of funny stuff”
Marion writes:
Please show the Gentle Readers wherein I have advocated for violence to be perpetrated against Geroge Tiller.
You can't because I haven't.
I advocated for Tiller to be brought to justice under the law.
31 May 2009
at 6:36 p.m.
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artichokeheart (Anonymous) says…
Now that Tiller is gone there is only one more left.
31 May 2009
at 6:41 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
Marion: “Please show the Gentle Readers wherein I have advocated for violence to be perpetrated against Geroge Tiller.
Marion: “I hope he does drop the rope regularly”
_________________________________
Marion, wishing that someone else be criminally sodomized is advocating violence.
31 May 2009
at 6:45 p.m.
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madman (Anonymous) says…
Wow. It is amazing to me (not really) that there is so much Christian bashing on this when Tiller himself was a Christian.
There are crazies on both sides of the equation and hypocrisy exists in all circles.
Murdering this man was not the right thing to do. I am sad for his family.
Fixing what you think is or is wrong with another wrong never makes it right.
31 May 2009
at 6:59 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
It isn't Christian bashing. It is Religious Rite bashing. Surely you are complex enough in thought to know the difference. IF not, I am sure a simplistic world is far more easier to navigate.
31 May 2009
at 7:03 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
it is entirely obvious that any abortion dr.'s murder is politically motivated.
31 May 2009
at 7:03 p.m.
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RoeDapple (Anonymous) says…
ArumerZ,
THAT was the first thing I thought when the news came out, have my doubts now, but hey, anything is possible…..
31 May 2009
at 7:06 p.m.
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notajayhawk (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“But they didn't act today like the Religious Rite has.”
Anyone keeping track of how many times the aptly named Ms. Mania has referred to the “Religious Rite?”
Let's see - only 20% of the population currently identifies themselves as Republicans. Yet about 85% of the population identifies themselves as belonging to a particular religion, so it would seem the 'Religious Left' outnumber the 'Religious Right' by a wide margin. Also, 50% of the population now identifies themselves as “pro-life” (more than identify themselves as “pro-choice,” btw). Which means there are more non-Republican pro-lifers than there are Republican ones.
Hmmm - couldn't be that your “deep-seated resentment towards the Religious Rite” is causing you to rant against a group that really isn't the cause of your problem, could it?
Oh, and there's no hypocrisy, mania (I can't bring myself to use the other half of your name, since that refers to someone of high intelligence) - just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I have to ignore the truth. A pinhead is a pinhead.
31 May 2009
at 7:08 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
edjayhawk
(Anonymous) says…
Me thinks it might have been a contract for hire killing…
… because whenever I'm hiring a hitman, I always look at his CV/resume…did he graduate from K-state?
lol
31 May 2009
at 7:12 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Naw, a professional hitter would have been gone and would never get caught.
31 May 2009
at 7:21 p.m.
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WhiteDog (Anonymous) says…
What Roeder says on a now-cached page at Operation Rescue. Guess he finally got inside.
Scott Roeder Says:
May 19th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp.
Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.
31 May 2009
at 7:29 p.m.
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AreUNorml (Anonymous) says…
Irish (Irish Swearingen) says…
I think that what Tiller did was horrifying and wrong, and I am astonished to learn that he was a member of a church.
None of which excuses murder.
As a Catholic I hope and pray that it was not a Catholic who did it, and if it was that the Church denounces this person in no uncertain terms.
************************************
Are you serious? you're astonished that the doctor was religious? Why, because he believes differently than you do?
And you automatically pray that it wasn't a Catholic who shot him? Why? Because that would project poorly on who YOU are? what a selfish statement. Besides, the Catholic church probably has as much or more blood on it's hands than all of Islam, and they're dripping red. If you aren't ashamed to be a Catholic by now, you never will be.
31 May 2009
at 7:31 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
notajayhawk
(Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“But they didn't act today like the Religious Rite has.”
Anyone keeping track of how many times the aptly named Ms. Mania has referred to the “Religious Rite?”
Let's see - only 20% of the population currently identifies themselves as Republicans. Yet about 85% of the population identifies themselves as belonging
to a particular religion, so it would seem the 'Religious Left' outnumber the 'Religious Right' by a wide margin. Also, 50% of the population now identifies
themselves as “pro-life” (more than identify themselves as “pro-choice,” btw). Which means there are more non-Republican pro-lifers than there are Republican
ones.
Hmmm - couldn't be that your “deep-seated resentment towards the Religious Rite” is causing you to rant against a group that really isn't the cause of your
problem, could it?
Oh, and there's no hypocrisy, mania (I can't bring myself to use the other half of your name, since that refers to someone of high intelligence) - just
because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I have to ignore the truth. A pinhead is a pinhead.
–Nota,
yes Mania is right! look back in her posting history, she reveals that she has deep psychological wounds from what a bunch of “athletic supporters” [her own words] did to her family; this was on an old school thread and boy was she buddied up with Bronzie, you know that paragon who' been kicked off seven times before as cool/ariadne/jaguar/coltrane/rusty2/spiderman/et al.
if she's the representative of proabortion people, I think they best worry!
31 May 2009
at 7:33 p.m.
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parlet (Anonymous) says…
“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” - Gandhi
31 May 2009
at 7:38 p.m.
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madman (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania
Just so we are clear. There are several post that specifically say Christians. If I wanted to use the term Religous Rite, I would have. I know the difference.
31 May 2009
at 7:38 p.m.
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AreUNorml (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I will consider all Religious Rite from this day forward
k i l l e r s !!!!
I will not differentiate. All Religious Rite will be considered killers.
I am pissed as hades on this one.
Tiller was a good man!!!
He did good things!!!
************************************************
This statement makes you as narrow minded as the people you blame. I have no belief in religion, but I am able to differentiate between nut jobs and the average individual with a belief system.
31 May 2009
at 7:41 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
Marion: “Please show the Gentle Readers wherein I have advocated for violence to be perpetrated against Geroge Tiller.
Marion: “I hope he does drop the rope regularly”
_________________________________
Marion, wishing that someone else be criminally sodomized is advocating violence.”
Marion writes:
I didn't mention “sodomy”; I simply wished him difficulty in retaining a grip on his bar of soap.
31 May 2009
at 7:43 p.m.
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AreUNorml (Anonymous) says…
religious rite - an established ceremony prescribed by a religion; “the rite of baptism”.
I think what “mania” wants to say is - religious right. it apparently refers to everyone who doesn't belong to the religious left….
31 May 2009
at 7:44 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
we do understand that for a church to accept Tiller, it must not hold the Bible in high regard. a “lutheran” church…possibly one of the liberal lutheran churches, some lutheran churches more liberal than ELCA. this Wichita church is most certainly not Missouri Synod; those good folks would not have welcomed Tiller.
***
whitedog,
that quote is *two years old* and contains no threat of violence.
again, Tiller violated the same commandment his killer did. Tiller was apparently paid $5,000 for late term abortions. women flew to kansas to get them from all over the country. it made kansas the late term capital of the U.S. his excuses to justify late term abortions were far outside the intent of the law. that is the law passed by the kansas state legislature and signed by past governors.
if the law is not enforced equally or properly, will vigilantes rise up? it is an old argument, but one applicable here.
***
I sure do pitty Ms. 'Mania's husband! sure do pitty him!
31 May 2009
at 7:49 p.m.
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verity (Anonymous) says…
This is a quote from a comment in another newspaper, but I think it pretty well sums it up–
“It's not about abortion. Some people will quickly make this event into another debate about abortion. But that's not the lesson. The lesson here is that when you have virulent, non-stop hate speech directed towards any group (i.e., “murderers”, “baby killers” in this case), you feed extremism. You give extremists the “food” their twisted minds require, the tacit permission to engage in their “holy mission” of violence. We've seen it with gays, and, historically, with too many other minorities. You do reap what you sow, even with words. That's the lesson.”
I repeat–”That's the lesson.” A lot of people from both sides of the issues on this thread should maybe think about that.
31 May 2009
at 7:55 p.m.
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WhiteDog (Anonymous) says…
Yes, the quote is two years old, which shows at least a two-year relationship between Roeder and Operation Rescue. It also shows his apparently long-standing desire to get inside the church. And I'll bet I'm not the only one who will find that interesting.
31 May 2009
at 8:06 p.m.
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Irish (Irish Swearingen) says…
Catholic bashing will get you no where. I did not understand abortion long before I joined the Church. I was not raised with any faith whatsoever, and as an adult chose the Church because of my love and reverence for her.
I am sorry there are people like Tiller who do what they do.
I am sorry someone felt they had to kill him, because it was his ideas that were bad and you cannot kill an idea.
If you don't believe in abortion it is very simple, stay away from the Dr. Tillers. All you can do is live your life, not anyone else's.
Still proud to be Catholic.
31 May 2009
at 8:08 p.m.
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riverdrifter (Anonymous) says…
To bad, so sad for this sorry loser Roeder. He now has a rattlesnake of a District Attorney to deal with.
http://sedgwickcounty.org/DA/nola_bio…
Good luck, dude -and enjoy.
31 May 2009
at 8:11 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“76trombones (Anonymous) says… Scott Roeder is a member of Operation Rescue …”
It would also appear that Roeder is a member of the “Freemen” movement and was arrested in 1996 on explosives charges. From CNN (although the page is no longer available):
'Freeman' arrested in Kansas
Suspect had bomb device, police say
April 17, 1996
Web posted at: 2:30 p.m. edt (cnn) a Kansas man identified by the FBI as a member of the anti-government Freemen group was being held Wednesday on explosives charges as the standoff in Montana entered its 24th day. Also Wednesday, a detention hearing was scheduled in Billings, Montana, for Freeman Ebert Stanton, 23. He and his mother surrendered last week to authorities
Bomb trigger
Scott P. Roeder, 38, was arrested Tuesday in Kansas after deputies found what they called a bomb-triggering device in his car. The Silver Lake man was arrested in Topeka and held on charges of criminal use of explosives, driving on a suspended license and failure to carry registration and insurance. He was stopped because his car didn't have a legitimate license plate. Instead, it had a tag indicating the driver was a “sovereign” citizen and immune from Kansas law. The same type of license plate is sometimes used by the Freemen, whose members in Montana are in a standoff with federal agents. Roeder's name is on an FBI list of Freemen members, said Sheriff Dave Meneley of Shawnee County, Kansas. In Roeder's trunk, authorities found fuse cord, a one-pound can of gunpowder, ammunition, a blasting cap and two 9-volt batteries, one wired to a switch the alleged triggering device.
31 May 2009
at 8:13 p.m.
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tunahelper (Anonymous) says…
God does exist.
31 May 2009
at 8:22 p.m.
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Cooky_the_Cook (Anonymous) says…
From the ADL militia watchdog website:
July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.
I guess Dr. Tiller killed the wrong right-wing nutbar's kid, huh ArumerZ? Probably a different Scott Roeder, right? I am also interested in how you feel about the Anti-Defamation League. Thoughts?
31 May 2009
at 8:23 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
25 May 2009
at 9:38 p.m.
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Anonymous
Machiavelli_mania
(Anonymous) says…
My children are not in this school system. Already pulled them out, … years ago, due to bad schooling with horrible teacher and principal. Put them in places
of real education and learning. I am happy with how educationally advanced they are. One of them may well be a Sabin, a Lisi, a Kaku.
But I pay taxes for this school system and thus I have some say in it's activities.
I am not at all in support of this athletic field. I find it a total and absolute waste of money.
And FYI, I am following family tradition here. When I was growing up, the local school thought they needed to build a gym. My father protested that, because
they wanted to put a mill levy on it (marion, don't bite my head off if I use the wrong word here). He owned more land than the supporters did and was
going to pay more for it than most other people, while having a family of girls who were barely able to play sports at the time (and you know the history
of girls' sports). Oh yes, the debate got so heated that men, athletic supporters (pardon the obvious pun) came to my house and threatened to kill my dad
right in front of us. Yep, athletic supporters really are a decent group of people, aren't they?!
31 May 2009
at 8:26 p.m.
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parlet (Anonymous) says…
Another dismaying aspect of this very sad situation is that, once again, a Kansas crackpot makes international news: Fred Phelps, BTK, “intelligent” design… No wonder the conversation dies in polite company when I mention I'm from Kansas.
31 May 2009
at 8:32 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
thanks for the info Gl0ck…
being a Freeman must not've paid well, he's driving a 17-year-old powder blue Ford Taurus!
Freemen aren't religious right, or rite. they have other things on their plate.
so, can we get apologies from the nutbag left posters one here now? it *wasn't* the “religious right.” remnant of militia/antigovernment.
31 May 2009
at 8:45 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says… thanks for the info Gl0ck…”
No worries. It is unfortunate that there isn't a reporter at this award winning website that can use google to find a thirteen year old article regarding the suspect in one of the biggest crimes of the year in this area.
31 May 2009
at 8:45 p.m.
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riverdrifter (Anonymous) says…
Coarse: vulgar; obscene; crude.
Pretty well sizes this event up.
31 May 2009
at 8:47 p.m.
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artichokeheart (Anonymous) says…
“Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Jonathan, good luck on keeping this thread under control. I know I step out of line occasionally..”
Marion writes:
Now there is an understatement if I ever read one.
beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Actually none2, all the ER's should have a firm rule. Come in with head injuries and no helmet, don't waste resources, he made the choice.”
Marion
Agreed understatement.
31 May 2009
at 9:02 p.m.
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lctchr1 (Anonymous) says…
Irish says…”If you don't believe in abortion it is very simple, stay away from the Dr. Tillers. All you can do is live your life, not anyone else's.”
Do you realize that that is a very pro-choice statement? This is how many people who are pro-choice feel. The don't like abortion, but they want the government to stay OUT! I have nothing against you, Irish, but your statement is very pro-choice.
31 May 2009
at 9:41 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
__________________________
Scott Roeder post on ChargeTiller.com Mon September 03, 2007, 09:49:40 ” It seems as though what is happening in Kansas could be compared to the “lawlessness” which is spoken of in the Bible. Tiller is the concentration camp “Mengele” of our day and needs to be stopped before he and those who protect him bring judgement upon our nation.”
___________________________
Marion Lynn post on LJW forums Thursday, January 31, 2008 “Tiller = Mengele.”
31 May 2009
at 9:43 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
There are natural consequences to hate speech. People need to understand this.
31 May 2009
at 9:47 p.m.
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lctchr1 (Anonymous) says…
Arumer—That is a good point, but it is a slippery slope when the government starts telling people what they can and cannot do with one's body. I firmly believe that if men got pregnant, this whole issue would be a non-issue. It would be one's choice.
31 May 2009
at 9:53 p.m.
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Thats_messed_up (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 10:09 p.m.
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lctchr1 (Anonymous) says…
Pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.
31 May 2009
at 10:10 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
“Marion Lynn post on LJW forums Thursday, January 31, 2008 “Tiller = Mengele.”
Marion writes:
So what?
I posted an opinion with which you disagree and because you disagree with it, you call it “hate speech”.
31 May 2009
at 10:17 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I am unaffected by you, bearded gnome. You are totally powerless.
31 May 2009
at 10:28 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Tiller never took any lives. That is where you go so wrong.
There will be someone who is so motivated by this murder that they will step up to the plate and replace him.
31 May 2009
at 10:29 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
It was the Religious Rite that incited this act. No doubt about it.
31 May 2009
at 10:41 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
If Tiller took lives, why wasn't he in prison???
I have sat and listened to Religious Rite preachers, while their logic twists at a certain point in sermon and they no longer track the logic they began with. Just as your post did.
31 May 2009
at 10:42 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
Tiller took no lives. He provided services that aborted fetuses.
31 May 2009
at 10:42 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I am thinking that your post didn't even began in logic.
31 May 2009
at 10:43 p.m.
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Bob_Keeshan (Anonymous) says…
ArumerZwarteHoop (Anonymous) says…
Didn't the left use lawless violence to end Vietnam and bring about civil rights.
––––––––––
Yes, nobody knew how to use violence as a means to achieve his ends like Martin Luther King, Jr.
31 May 2009
at 10:44 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
“Tiller took no lives. He provided services that aborted fetuses”
Rarely, very rarely a fetus.
But mostly zygotes and embryos.
31 May 2009
at 10:46 p.m.
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Irish (Irish Swearingen) says…
lctchr1 No, no, no, you totally misunderstand me. I am saying I give up. If I had my way no one would have an abortion, not for rape, not for incest. I would sign a petition to get a law preventing abortion. But, as the law stands today there is nothing I can do about it.
Every woman who is against abortion can refrain from doing what she believes to be immoral. But she may not be able to convince another woman that it is not the woman's body that is at stake here, it is the body of the baby who is a separate being from the mother though depending on the mother for pre-birth nourishment.
I hope this changes your mind about me.
31 May 2009
at 10:49 p.m.
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nschmi04 (Anonymous) says…
What a sick bastard. I hope he get's waterboarded by the Obama Admin. Isn't that what we do to religous zealots?
31 May 2009
at 10:50 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
beobachter (Anonymous) says…
“Tiller took no lives. He provided services that aborted fetuses.”
Marion writes:
I just don't know how to respond to that one.
31 May 2009
at 10:51 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
We aren't just talking about the life of a mother at stake. We are also talking about her reputation, her mental health, her dreams and aspirations, her desired future. And always is involves a “her”, not a “him”.
Tiller provided abortions mostly at early stages of gestation. And most people who seek out abortions seek them out at early stages of gestation.
If men had pregnancies too, abortion wouldn't even be a political issue.
31 May 2009
at 10:59 p.m.
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Katara (Anonymous) says…
verity (Anonymous) says…
This is a quote from a comment in another newspaper, but I think it pretty well sums it up–
“It's not about abortion. Some people will quickly make this event into another debate about abortion. But that's not the lesson. The lesson here is that when you have virulent, non-stop hate speech directed towards any group (i.e., “murderers”, “baby killers” in this case), you feed extremism. You give extremists the “food” their twisted minds require, the tacit permission to engage in their “holy mission” of violence. We've seen it with gays, and, historically, with too many other minorities. You do reap what you sow, even with words. That's the lesson.”
I repeat–”That's the lesson.” A lot of people from both sides of the issues on this thread should maybe think about that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This. This. This. This. This. This!
31 May 2009
at 11:14 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
I use “religious rite” because there is nothing whatsoever “right” about them.
31 May 2009
at 11:15 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“Tiller took no lives. He provided services that aborted fetuses.”
It never ceases to amaze me, beyond even simple recognition of the shortcomings of language, the degree to which people are prepared to organize reality around its failings.
31 May 2009
at 11:16 p.m.
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friend73 (Anonymous) says…
OOOO My Gosh! I so had to post my comment, What is the deal with people saying it christian or catholic or what ever? No abortions should not be a form of birth control But it's not ur body and u don't know the circumstances, So why is it anyone elses bees wax? Yes I agree, if u know ur pg and wish to abort, do it ASAP, But then again some girls don't no their pg, till later on. I think it's just crazy that people say, U can have a baby from rape, u can have a baby that will never talk, walk or ever live a half way normal life! Does anyone ever stop to think, About the medical bills? The care ect? Like I said I agree with it, then again I don't! I Do not agree that a person got murdered for being a doctor of that sort! that is utterly wrong. i look at it this way the person that shot the doctor did what he was against!
31 May 2009
at 11:16 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
And so collusion, you are presuming to replace your god now? You have decided what has been elusive since humans have walked this earth, since they have created gods.
So when does life end?
31 May 2009
at 11:19 p.m.
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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…
Abortions are not extreme. Killing people because of a belief system is.
31 May 2009
at 11:24 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
“Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says… I am thinking that your post didn't even began in logic.”
Is there some sort of crazy, hypocritical post to story ratio limit on this forum?
31 May 2009
at 11:28 p.m.
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Katara (Anonymous) says…
Mr_Collusion (Anonymous) says…
Katara,
I've thought about it and your wrong. Human life begins at conception. It's just that simple.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have no idea why you are addressing me. I've not said a thing about when human life begins on this thread.
Although… just guessing by your username, you don't posses a uterus and will never have an idea what it is like to be pregnant. I am truly sorry that you are so overwhelmed by womb envy that you cannot recognize women as individuals who have the right to control what happens to their bodies.
31 May 2009
at 11:37 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Mr_Collusion (Anonymous) says…
Can somebody tell me why Norma McCorvey was arrested at the Notre Dame protest on the 17th of this month. What was she doing there protesting? What was she protesting? Maybe you can Machiavelli_mania.”
Marion writes:
Mr, C; they won't but I will……………………………………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_MUUv…
31 May 2009
at 11:42 p.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
Mr_Collusion (Anonymous) says…
Katara,
I've thought about it and your wrong. Human life begins at conception. It's just that simple.
=============================
No, it isn't that simple. Yes to some degree there CAN be a life there, but in some cases the fetus stands little or no chance to actually live outside the womb even if brought to term. Case in point, there have been fetuses where there is no brain, only the stem which only allows for autonomic systems to function. The connection with the mother is the only thing that is allowing it to grow. It will not survive after 9 months. Should the mother be forced to endure the rest of the pregnancy when the end result is death anyway? Would you insist that parents keep a brain dead child on life support for 9 months?
I am very uncomfortable with elective abortions of healthy fetuses where the procreation was consensual. However, there are times where something simply goes horribly wrong. I would like to think the better of humanity. I do believe that most late term abortions are of that type. Why would any mother-to-be abort a fetus at 7 months just for the hell of it? I find it hard to believe that someone would go that far and just decide to change their minds on a whim.
Granted, abnormal fetuses or a woman's life/health situation are not common, but that is what is so frustrating about BOTH sides of the debate. It is ALL or nothing mentality. Either all abortions are wrong, or any situation is fine. As long as everything is extreme with no middle ground this issue is going to be a thorn in our society for years to come.
Both sides really need to come to some kind of middle ground where the end result is fewer abortions because women of reproductive age have all the tools (knowledge & resources) to not get pregnant in the first place or has all the stigma removed if they didn't have a white wedding dress before junior or juniorette was conceived. Such a goal takes money and commitment. Condemnation may be free, but it doesn't change anybody's mind nor help any future children.
31 May 2009
at 11:45 p.m.
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Katara (Anonymous) says…
Mr_Collusion (Anonymous) says…
Katara,
I'm addressing you because, yes it is about abortion. Why was George Tiller shot and killed? Tell me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are addressing me on something I have not spoken about on this thread.
Perhaps you should try Google to answer your numerous questions. Obviously, you have quite a few.
31 May 2009
at 11:45 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Voce Cartman:
“Wir müssen die Babies ausrotten!”
31 May 2009
at 11:53 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
31 May 2009
at 11:54 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Meanwhile, I can't help but find this rather… interesting:
http://www2.ljworld.com/users/Setting…
1 June 2009
at 12:02 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Marion, stop salivating in the front of the computer already. You're gonna get the keyboard wet with… saliva.
We get it… you're happy that a murder has taken place.
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
”
Marion writes:
There you go again., Aggie!
I try with you; I really do but you are indeed incorrigible.
I deplore the killing of Tiller The Killer as that was *NOT* the correct way to go about it.
Though I suspect the day will come and perhaps sooner than many expect, that such summary judgement may become commonplace, we are not yet there.
I have never advocated for violence to be perpetrated against baby killers but I certainly do understand it.
Your post is rude and meaningless; beneath you because you are smart person.
Why do you go to the last resort of those who have nothing to say; the Ad Hominem attack?
1 June 2009
at 12:02 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
1 June 2009
at 12:08 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Marion, I've chuckled over your egotistical idiocy for years. Your fetish with abortion, Nazi Germany, and the like. This is nothing new. Anyone who wants to see where the real “smarts” regarding the abortion issue need only look back through the comment records of each an every user on this forum—mine, yours, anyone's.
Take your can of hominy and sit on it, already.
Your concern for babies is false, feigned, meaningless…
1 June 2009
at 12:12 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
“And idiots like Marion, Collision, parkay (another missing name… hhhmmmmm ), and STRS will continue directing women with unwanted pregnancies into the building… to continue to inflate their own egos…”
Marion writes:
Oh!
OK!
Noiw I get to be an “idiot” because I beleive that life begins at conception and I value human life.
I got it now.
1 June 2009
at 12:24 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Conspirator,
Just so you know I'm no “Johnny-Come-Lately” to this thing, like yourself, here's a smattering of my posts on the issue. Check that against Marion's ramblings, which often mix in crackpot comments about Stalin and Hitler and the like.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/sep…
[Good overview of my position here]
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/aug…
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/aug…
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/dec…
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/dec…
[ Scroll up a few posts to see more of Marion's Abortion-Hitler fetish in this thread! Hilarious! ]
—Ag
1 June 2009
at 12:26 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
No, Marion, you're an idiot because you think a lot of people buy into your fake “concern” about human life.
Me? I see right through your act.
Always have… always will… ;)
—Ag
1 June 2009
at 12:28 a.m.
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sustainabilitysister (Anonymous) says…
Tragically sad. Dr. Tiller was a human rights advocate by advocating for children, not against. Dr. Tiller was and will always be a hero. We need him now more than ever.
1 June 2009
at 12:32 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Well, Aggie it is a fact that WW II killed around 50 million peole and since Roe v Wade there have been about 50 million killings of babies in the womb, so I'm not certain what your issue with my comparison is.
1 June 2009
at 12:38 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Looks like Roeder posted on the Operation Rescue web site… Free Republic… maybe others.
http://donklephant.com/2009/05/31/til…
Did he post here on LJWorld.com , too?
I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few user profiles “disappear” from here in the coming weeks, in connection to this act of domestic terrorism.
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
1 June 2009
at 12:40 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Operation Rescue web site is now down… perhaps seized by Department of Homeland Security, as part of domestic terrorism investigation?
1 June 2009
at 12:44 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
“domestic terrorism”?
It is to laugh.
A crazy guy killed another guy; that's what really happened here.
I'm certain that Operation Rescue's site is merely overloaded; exceding available bandwidth and the server melted down, as it were.
1 June 2009
at 1:50 a.m.
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mike_blur (Mike Blur) says…
Marion: Merely overloaded at 1:40 am? The site is still down. I was able to access it at 2 pm earlier today (my very first time visiting that site, so I had a clean cache.) You and I know that a web site like that, which is mostly text and therefore is a very light load on internet backbones, should be up by now. Either the operators have deleted it, the hosting company has (for now) blocked access to it, or it's been seized by law enforcement authorities as possible criminal evidence.
I'm wagering on the third option.
1 June 2009
at 6:23 a.m.
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ksdivakat (Anonymous) says…
I knew this thread would be hopping after I heard the news yeaterday. I just want to reiterate, that so far, there has been no connection with this coward who shot Tiller and any church. So to say that this is a religious rite thing, or that “there goes another christian killing someone” is totally off base.
Whatever someone believes, does not make it okay to shoot someone in their place of worship. No matter what you believe, or what your religious beliefs are, one thing should be a constant, and that is that a church should always be a place of peace.
I can only hope, that there were no children who witnessed this, as it is tragic enough that adults had too, this man is a coward and went for vigilante justice and he was wrong. I dont think you will get any christian to say he was justified in what he did, and if they do, then they are extremist and do not share the views of most christians.
I pray for peace in the coming days for his family, and justice be served to the fullist extent of the law.
1 June 2009
at 7 a.m.
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Hawkman_021 (Anonymous) says…
“…I am astonished to learn that he was a member of a church.”
Why would you be astonished, there are alot of people that go to church that lead very different lives
“A former church leader today dramatically confessed to carrying out the BTK serial killings which terrorised Kansas for nearly 20 years.
Dennis Rader, 60, the one-time president of the church council at Christ Lutheran Church and Boy Scout, admitted to 10 counts of premeditated murder in the Wichita area between 1974 and 1991.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news…
1 June 2009
at 7:13 a.m.
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barrypenders (Anonymous) says…
Obama's girl Janey Napoleantano can spot right-wing terrorists easily. Obama probably has her g-men canvassing the area right now.
Considering Obama's people, their and his highly intelligent progressive-ness, I am surprised 'baby tiller' was allowed to be picked off.
1 June 2009
at 7:33 a.m.
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motocross (Anonymous) says…
It's called justice to me….
Hmmm, I wonder how many lives he has killed and tortured….
Hmm, lets see…. Maybe a couple thousand poor innocent babies to one evil man… hmmm
No love lost here.
Wake up people, God is real, His justice is real.
1 June 2009
at 7:34 a.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/217156…
1 June 2009
at 7:45 a.m.
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justaverage (Anonymous) says…
In the United States, in the year 2000, there were 1,313,000 abortions performed. Of those, 2,232 were late term procedures. What does this say about our society? People need to take responsibility for their actions. Think before you act people!!!
1 June 2009
at 7:58 a.m.
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ksdivakat (Anonymous) says…
motocross….I dont know what God you serve, but I think your views are a bit skewed.
No man deserves to take the life of another man, and to make this more fo a tragedy, this was carried out in a place of worship, a place where one should be safe, a place of peace.
Nobody has the right to Judge Tiller, you may not agree with what he done, I dont agree with what he done, however, he did not deserve to die over it. What makes this coward any better? he did the same thing, he murdered a man, and he will have to be dealt with the same way anybody else who commits an act of murder is.
Im asking you nicely NOT to come on here and tell my friends on this thread that this is justice carried out by God, because that is a lie as a lie as a lie! There is no truth to that watsoever. My God, is a God of love, and one who seeks peace, and is a forgiving God, EVEN to George Tiller…nobody is immune, and everyone is welcome, and obviously Tiller thought so also, as this heinous act happened in his church!
1 June 2009
at 8:03 a.m.
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Left_handed (Anonymous) says…
Machiavelli,
What rite are you referring to? There are many religions, and they have many rites. Can you be more specific?
1 June 2009
at 8:25 a.m.
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JohnBrown (Anonymous) says…
The Kansas Taliban strike again.
1 June 2009
at 8:30 a.m.
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artichokeheart (Anonymous) says…
God has nothing to do with this but it is most certainly justice.
1 June 2009
at 8:32 a.m.
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RedwoodCoast (Anonymous) says…
Oh man, Unprogressivemen is certainly playing the kook card.
1 June 2009
at 8:35 a.m.
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none2 (Anonymous) says…
http://ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp…
1 June 2009
at 8:35 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
none2 - “Granted, abnormal fetuses or a woman's life/health situation are not common, but that is what is so frustrating about BOTH sides of the debate. It is ALL or nothing mentality. Either all abortions are wrong, or any situation is fine. As long as everything is extreme with no middle ground this issue is going to be a thorn in our society for years to come.”
While that is a wonderful thought, and very middle-of-the-road and conciliatory - it just won't work. Some would say that we had already reached that sort of accord, where the atrocious late-term abortions were illegal, except for very specific and defined (and extremely rare) instances. Then we have a fellow that made those extremely rare instances much more 'common'.
Sometimes right is right, and wrong is wrong, and there is no middle ground. Sometimes there is no 'solution' that will be acceptable to all parties, and the best that can be hoped for is a state of fluctuating 'equilibrium'.
––
“Kansas Taliban” - seriously?
1 June 2009
at 8:37 a.m.
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mom_of_three (Anonymous) says…
nice post divacat and I also like what misplacedcheesehead said.
1 June 2009
at 8:42 a.m.
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motocross (Anonymous) says…
ksdivakat-
Do you also realize that in the Word is states that God's wrath is upon them who do evil????
God isn't put into a little box, He is the Creator!
Bless you.
1 June 2009
at 8:43 a.m.
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disgustedagain (Anonymous) says…
Reading all these posts just makes me sad. One would think that people who support Operation Rescue and have endlessly spewed hate against George Tiller would take a breath and consider what their inflammatory rhetoric has accomplished: a mentally disturbed person has heard “mass murderer” and has committed yet another murder using anti-abortion principles as his justification. I'm sure most Christians and non-Christians equally condemn this sort of violence. (It is pathetic to read all the early posts by pro-lifers who ludicrously tried to claim that it might turn out to be a random act of violence unrelated to abortion beliefs!)
My personal opinion is that members of Operation Rescue and other such extreme groups ought to be feeling very uneasy after this and should be questioning the violent rhetoric of people like Randall Terry. Note that I don't say they will be; sadly, I'm sure many will be claiming there is no connection between OR's hate speech and this act of violence. I do not go so far as to say they are legally culpable in this crime. Randall Terry condemns this act of violence and in the same breath continues the inflammatory rhetoric by saying that Dr. Tiller was a mass murderer with blood on his hands?? By doing so, he condones the violence in his own words.
Hate speech clearly DOES have an impact on unbalanced individuals. A climate of hateful rhetoric (and calls to action!) can have deadly consequences, and members of groups like OR should not be so quick to disown any responsibility. Yes, most responsible pro-life Christians work within the law. But it can't be denied that many pro-life proponents go way too far in their angry rhetoric condemning abortion rights advocates and pro-choice doctors.
Condolences to Dr. Tiller's family and friends. Dr. Tiller will be sorely missed. I have donated to Medical Students for Choice and encourage pro-choice advocates to donate in tribute to Dr. Tiller. We can hope that the rhetoric of hate by various pro-life groups (and by pro-choice groups in response) will be moderated in response to this example of the consequences of hate speech.
1 June 2009
at 8:52 a.m.
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deathpenaltyliberal (Anonymous) says…
I hope that the murderer, a true domestic terrorist, is prosecuted to the full extent.
And I hope that maybe the Bill O'Reilly's (who all but called for Tilller's murder) of the world realize that their hate-filled rhetoric can result in lawlessness and tragedy.
1 June 2009
at 8:55 a.m.
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disgustedagain (Anonymous) says…
As for the posters who are actively rejoicing in what they call “justice,” they will be judged by their Maker I am happy to say.
1 June 2009
at 9:18 a.m.
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ksdivakat (Anonymous) says…
motocross….then his wrath would be on ALL of us, as we ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory.
And I agree with disgustedagain, the posters who are rejoicing in this mans death will be Judged harshly by God, as you are leading men astray, you are promoting a God of hate and injustice, and not a God of love and justice.
It is NO mans place to Judge and certainly NOT to be the executioner as well. One sin does not cover or justify another. If you believe what Tiller did was murder and a sin, then it is Gods place to judge that, not yours, and not mine, we are directed to love them anyway…..please show your love to those who are mourning the death of their loved one.
1 June 2009
at 9:26 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
Conservativeman, welcome back! I was wondering when you would crawl out from under your rock.
Odd that you should choose to reappear as recently as Friday… perhaps you had big plans for the weekend, eh? ;)
Still have some of your “love notes” in my email… I'm sure I can count on more!
Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com
1 June 2009
at 9:38 a.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
The guy is a murderer. That is all. Not a terrorist.
1 June 2009
at 9:41 a.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
The difference between a murder and a terrorist is ideology. I submit that Roeder has previously expressed extreme ideological partisan ship, and is in fact a domestic terrorist.
1 June 2009
at 9:44 a.m.
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temperance (Anonymous) says…
Nice posts ksdivakat
The insanity and joyful bloodlust of motocross has no resemblance to Christianity as practiced by the majority of good Kansans. It’s almost as if he’s purposely trying to make his “side” look as crazy as possible. Although his ends-justify-the-means logic gives us insight into the mind of Tiller’s murderer, it might be best to ignore him – his ignorance and sense of self-righteousness puts him beyond rational debate or discussion (and he’s certainly not the only one on this thread to whom that applies).
1 June 2009
at 9:45 a.m.
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livingstone (Anonymous) says…
As Buddha said: “If I don't go to hell for someone else, who will?”. Many Christians do “good work” because they're scared of punishments after death, and honestly, not from their hearts. Tiller is a person who is helping with others' life, and willing to go to hell for them. Bring out all truth of the pros and cons for abortion, and let us decide scientifically.
To Unprogressiveman, yeap, if the constitution is properly followed, gays do have the rights to be married.
1 June 2009
at 9:46 a.m.
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tolawdjk (Anonymous) says…
feeble: A much simpler way to express that:
If I agree with his actions but publicly abhor them = murderer.
If I don't agree with them, and publicly denounce everything associated with them = terrorist.
You can't follow the players if you don't buy a program before the game!
1 June 2009
at 9:53 a.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
He killed one man with one shot. That is a murderer. He didn't strap a bomb to his chest and blow up the church. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were terrorists. Big difference.
1 June 2009
at 9:55 a.m.
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prospector (Anonymous) says…
What an unselfish act by Dr. George Tiller. He knowingly forfeited his freedom and life to secure the lives of so many women. I will continue to pray for him and I would ask all good citizens to consider donating to Planned Parenthood. His family needs our support now and our understanding. His murder was heinous and his constitution rights will be protected by the prosecution and execution of this man.
Still, I can't help but wonder if Operation Rescue had something to do with this?
Respectfully,
=======================
resistant to change, I fixed that for you.
1 June 2009
at 10:01 a.m.
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barrypenders (Anonymous) says…
He off'd an improtant chooser. To those people, a very important man has been stopped. With his departure there is only 6,783,693,283 humans left on the planet…whoops been a few birfs, 6,783,693,296…
1 June 2009
at 10:15 a.m.
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cubbear (Anonymous) says…
Looks like Tiller was the victim of a late term abortion (he was clearly in his 3rd trimester of life). Wonder if they are going to charge this guy with practicing medicine without a license.
Seriously, I would love to know what Tiller had to say when he met his maker…think he's still pro-choice?
1 June 2009
at 10:20 a.m.
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jrlii (Anonymous) says…
Here we see the result of long term rhetorical excess: Violence.
When people in respectable and responsible positions repeatedly call abortion murder, then it must be OK to kill an abortionist, right?
The time has come and passed to tone down the rhetoric, particularly from the social right wing. If it does not, we will have a civil war. A real civil war, an “American Taliban” vs. secular America. And such violence will make the violence in Pakistan or Afghanistan look like a brotherly quarrel.
1 June 2009
at 10:22 a.m.
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igby (Anonymous) says…
I'm glad that the shooter did not kill the two witnesses that he pulled the gun on when he left the church. By him not killing them tells me he did use some restraint of compassion for others who he had no conflict with; even though they were his down fall and got his lic. plate number.
I suppose the shooter really did his own will and choose to not hurt anyone else. This fact, howbeit a grim setting, does divide him from a terrorist who just kills at random. He could of concealed his true intent by just shooting several others and shooting Tiller as well; that is, in light of all the church and school shootings we seen lately. His target was Tiller and Tiller alone. I'm glad he did not hurt anyone else.
His trial will be a long drawn out political circus with protesters on both sides making Kansas, a political tipping point in the abortion battle. The people of Kansas, really don't deserve this black history in the abortion battle and I really have to wonder why.
But Tiller did bring this trouble to Kansas because of a weakness in the state legislatures inability to make clear the legal statues regarding the law on abortion and support the law with SRS funding in which the state still has failed to do.
We can only blame our law makers and political electives for this weakness in addressing the statues on abortion. This weakness has allowed politicians to use the gray area for their own political advancement and has contributed to making Kansas appear to be a state of stupidity and twisted logic in the abortion battle. This gray area in the law brought the abortion battle here and allowed Tiller to become a merchant of services that no other state offered.
Tiller's death may for better or worse bring a sobering moment of need for legislators to debate the gray areas of the law and bring Kansas, out of the dark cloud of this abortion battle. The third trimester abortion should be a matter of the judicial family courts and should be overseen by SRS, not a second opinion by a doctor who is paid as a merchant for an opinion.
1 June 2009
at 10:23 a.m.
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Jaminrawk (Anonymous) says…
I can definitely see the wrong on both sides here. While the radicals that decide it is ok to blow up these clinics and murder the doctors ARE acting like terrorists, us left-leaning folks shouldn't condemn all Christians either, especially since Tiller was one.
The fact is, the two sides will never come close to agreeing about this subject. I do find an interesting parallel between the American Christian fundamentalist condemning the Islamic fundamentalists when they both basically decide they are killing in the name of God. Still, these folks are far and few between and I would be willing to bet most “pro-life” folks would never seriously consider killing anyone.
What this boils down to is a man was murdered in cold blood in front of his church and family presumably because a lunatic decided that the man's job was against God. It wasn't right and it should be a wake up call to Christians to publically condemn these types of actions as much as they publically condemn abortion clinics.
1 June 2009
at 10:24 a.m.
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shockchalk (Anonymous) says…
This is such a sad story. Christians aren't even safe to worship without fear of being killed. There seems to be so much hate and intolerance for people who choose to worship God. My prayers to his family and his church family that he worshiped with. May God grant them peace.
1 June 2009
at 10:28 a.m.
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prospector (Anonymous) says…
I see Mr. Unprogressive got his self disappeareded. Let me know how much you plan to donate to the murderer's defense fund so I can match it at Planned Parenthood.
Cubbear, Seriously? If so, go find out and let us know.
===========================
When I saw news video of the murderer's car, it had a K-State Power Cat front license plate. Just reporting the facts.
1 June 2009
at 10:29 a.m.
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disgustedagain (Anonymous) says…
cubbear, Dr. Tiller will be welcomed by his Maker and his long life of dedication to medicine and courage in the face of unrelenting threats against him and his family and his coworkers will be rewarded.
It's too bad that so many every day Christians are tainted by the acts of extremist Christians with intolerant belief systems. see below.
“Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriam, Kan., whom authorities have described as a suspect in Sunday’s fatal shooting here of George Tiller, the doctor who had been a focal point for abortion opponents for decades, was once a subscriber and occasional contributor to a newsletter, Prayer and Action News, said Dave Leach, an anti-abortion activist from Des Moines who runs the newsletter. Mr. Leach said he and Mr. Roeder had met once, and Mr. Roeder had described similar views to his own. Of Dr. Tiller’s death, Mr. Leach said, “To call this a crime is too simplistic,” adding, “There is Christian scripture that would support this.” NYT, Suspect Is Identified in Killing
No Christian I respect would say there is scripture to support murder.
1 June 2009
at 10:31 a.m.
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sciencegeek (Anonymous) says…
Unprogressiveman (Anonymous) says…
What an unselfish act by Scott Roeder. He knowingly forfeited his freedom to secure the lives of so many children. I will continue to pray for him and I would ask all good citizens to consider donating to his defense fund. He needs our support now and our understanding. His 240th trimester termination of the GT Killer was unfortunate, had our constitution been properly followed this would never have been an issue.
Still, I can't help but wonder if Obama had something to do with this?
Respectfully,
=====
AS a Christian, this just infuriates me.
This is exactly the kind of un-Christian, uncompassionate, judgemental verbiage that has alienated so many from churches. Jesus Christ would never speak like that; he actually loved ALL people. To speak and act with thinly-veiled hate and moral superiority, to act as Christ never did, is a slap in the face of God himself. Check your Bible—Jesus saved his greatest anger for the self-righteous religious leaders of his day. You are all modern-day Pharisees.
As to the pro-life movement—Tiller's blood is on your hands. You can't constantly pour gasoline on flames, then express shock and dismay when someone gets burned. Your ways are not God's ways, no matter the cause. Hypocrites, all!
1 June 2009
at 10:32 a.m.
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cubbear (Anonymous) says…
Shockchalk… I'm not sure why you feel that Christians are not safe to worship…now if you had said Abortion doctors are not safe to worship, I would agree (based on yesterdays events), but christians…come on…kind of a broad sweeping statement isn't it.
1 June 2009
at 10:50 a.m.
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prospector (Anonymous) says…
cubbear, nothing broad here, obviously by your statements, you are not a Christian.
1 June 2009
at 10:51 a.m.
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cubbear (Anonymous) says…
With everyone so quick assign the “terrorist” moniker, here's some food for thought…
Where the french & german underground who fought the goverment sanctioned genocide of nazi germany terrorists?
Was Patrick Henry a terrorist for fighting to take Englands sovereign terrority away from them and make it his own…or any of the American Revolutionaries for that fact.
Are the confederate soliders who fought in the US civil ware terrorists? If so, why are they honored with their own cemetarys.
1 June 2009
at 11 a.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
LJW administrators, thanks again for taking out the trash this morning. :)
1 June 2009
at 11:10 a.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
cubbear is conflating insurgence with terrorism. easy to understand, give the spin put on daily events out of Iraq.
Terrorism is not defined by the number of victims killed or injured by the perpetrator. It is defined by the motivation for that violence and who is targeted by the violence. Dr. Tiller was a civilian, despite the crowing of some on the far right. His murder is an attempt to quash reproductive rights through violence, rather than through democratic means, and to inspire terror/fear in other abortion providers, clinics and those who would avail themselves of those services.
“The end justifies the means” IS the credo of the terrorist. That so many posters on this board are willing to give carte blanch to this sort of behavior underscores the importance of the recent Homeland Security report warning about a marked rise in right-wing extremism.
Barry Goldwater was wrong, extremism in the face of liberty is a vice, especially when it leads one to abandon democratic principles in favor of violence.
1 June 2009
at 11:15 a.m.
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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…
Not terrorism? Seriously?
This man killed another man because he felt that the other man's chosen profession was morally wrong.
He committed a violent act against a non-combatant with the goal of inciting fear for the purpose of furthering an ideology.
I don't know how you *don't* call that terrorism.
1 June 2009
at 11:21 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
The thing in this thread that I find most interesting and frightening is the classification by the Left of discussion and expression of opinion; otherwise known as Freedom of Speech, as”hate speech” , followed by the notion that if discussion continues, crazies may be incited to commit acts of violence.
This attitude is, of course, nothing more than a very transparent attempt to stifle discussion, stifle freedom of expression and to murder Free Speech.
“Don't talk about that! Someone might go crazy!”
Essentially, if the Left doesn't like it, it is “hate speech”.
1 June 2009
at 11:22 a.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
bearded: “Freemen aren't religious right, or rite. they have other things on their plate.
so, can we get apologies from the nutbag left posters one here now? it *wasn't* the “religious right.” remnant of militia/antigovernment.”
Yes indeed. Anyone who said it was the religious right may indeed owe some apologizes. The killer may not have been part of those religious nuts on the right. Instead, he may well have been part of the militia/antigovernment pro-gun portion of the right — you know, the other nut-case branch of the right.
1 June 2009
at 11:26 a.m.
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shockchalk (Anonymous) says…
cubbear………..I think it's ironic that there are so many posts bashing the right, as well as christianity, when this man was serving at a church that he attends regularly. He believes in Jesus Christ, the son of God, who is the creator of the universe and many of these posting are completely opposed to that. In fact, they are intolerant of christians, conservatives, or anyone assosiated with the “right”. The truth will set you free indeed. I don't know any christians that would approve of this man being murdered. That isn't a tenet of the faith. It is not a christians job to judge and determine punishement. Just as it is ignorant for people to lump, and then bash, anyone who has a difference of opinion with them. There isn't anything “tolerant” or “progressive” with hating someone because they are pro-life. If it wasn't so sad, it would be almost comical that most of these hate-filled posts today are from people who claim to be tolerant of others views. Dr. Tiller, as a christian first, and doctor second, wouldn't share the views of many of these people who are spewing their hate today under the mask of sadness because of his death. It is a shame it isn't safe for christians to worship in the house of the Lord without fear of being murdered.
1 June 2009
at 11:27 a.m.
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prospector (Anonymous) says…
cubbear, Check your fridge, your food smells rotten.
“Where the french & german underground who fought the goverment sanctioned genocide of nazi germany terrorists?”
No they fought a government, not an individual.
“Was Patrick Henry a terrorist for fighting to take Englands sovereign terrority away from them and make it his own…or any of the American Revolutionaries for that fact.”(?)
No, same
“Are the confederate soliders who fought in the US civil ware terrorists?”
No they were all given unconditional pardons.
================
Cubbear, chew on this. Are people that kill for an ideology terrorists? What murders are justifiable to you? Who else do you want to see dead?
1 June 2009
at 11:48 a.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Yes, now it seems that the defenders of this great nation are under attack by loons.
Little Rock reports:
http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0609…
The suspect's pic:
http://www.acc-tv.com/images/katv/new…
I'm wondering who should “apologise” for this tragedy?
1 June 2009
at 11:49 a.m.
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ImAllThat (Anonymous) says…
aaaaaaaa…so a killer got killed…whats the big deal, happens in KC all the time? I really don't care that much. (ahhhhh, reclining in my lazyboy) If you're killing others then you should eventually expect to be killed.
1 June 2009
at 12:04 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
wow.
1 June 2009
at 12:16 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
I'm curious to know why the attack in Little Rock is being attributed to the left by posters on this forum. There is no statement by LEOs, no name given for the perp, only
ID'ing this guy as an extremist is premature, but given Arumers comment history (re: racism, chauvinism) it is not suprising to see this attribution coming from that poster.
Of course, this is absolutely a red herring and off-topic, as it has no relation to Tiller.
1 June 2009
at 12:28 p.m.
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charliejohnson (Anonymous) says…
That took a long time to read and to decifer.
I gues all that left to say is,
Marion, Marion, Marion.
Nuts,Nuts,Nuts!!!!!!!!!!
1 June 2009
at 12:30 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
To clarify, the suspect should be tried, and if found guilty, given the harshest possible penalty under law, but we don't know enough about him, or his victims, to say he is politically or ideologically motivated.
My condolences to the deceased soldier's family, and to the vet and their family, as well.
1 June 2009
at 12:43 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
In other words Marion and AZH, guns were again used to kill someone in America. Yes indeed, you are making a very good case against the left with that bit of information. Nice argument you have going there.
I guess the NRA is a leftist organization as well?
1 June 2009
at 12:52 p.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
motocross, while I do believe that people reap what you sow, I completely disagree with you that this is God exacting judgment on Tiller. If that is how you view God and His reaction toward sin, you need to take a look at the New Testament and start understanding what Christ did on the cross. The dispensation of Grace is upon us now and God deals with us in a complete new way. Did you pay a price for your sin in order to saved? Please stop spouting off that this is God's judgment. Don't you see how that completely does God and Christ a dis-service? God didn't exact judgment on Tiller, or New Orleans, or any other event you would want to categorize like this.
1 June 2009
at 12:52 p.m.
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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…
I enjoy bagels.
1 June 2009
at 1:08 p.m.
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kthxbi (Anonymous) says…
bagels are delicious.
1 June 2009
at 1:32 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
It will be noted that I didn't say the perp in Little Rock was “left-leaning”, AZ did.
I never wrote that the perp is “left-leaning” but some of you are clearly reacting as though I had, proving that you do not read what is written but what you “think” (sic) has been written.
Comprehension issues?
I think not but rather a willingness to paint with a broad bruch and to try to spin virtually any comment by anyone with whom you disagree into a comment which says something entirely different that what was written.
What I did you was ask who should “apologise” for this incident.
The alleged perp is quite obviously “black”; a “person of colour”; an “African-American”.
Based on the demands of certain posters in this thread, should not a prominent member of that community “apologise” for the behaviour of a member of that community?
Perhaps Louis Farakhan who has called for violence against whites.
Maybe the Goodly Reverend Wright; the radical minister under whose tutelage your president remained for many years.
Or possibly your president who is clearly a member of that community should “apologise” to the country for the violence.
What do *YOU* think?
Who should apologise for this bit of violence?
1 June 2009
at 1:37 p.m.
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kthxbi (Anonymous) says…
I will. I apologise.
1 June 2009
at 1:44 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
kthxbi (Anonymous) says…
I will. I apologise.”
Marion writes:
Do you have proper status to make this apology?
Are you a member of the correct group?
1 June 2009
at 1:52 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
it is worth noting that something around 35% of all demographics do not vote in presidential elections. An even greater portion of the public is apolitical for down ticket contests. So, while it is true that African Americans, as a group, overwhelmingly voted for Obama, only 65% of eligible African Americans actually voted.
The only piece of information Arumer is base his asserthttp://www2.ljworld.com/news/2009/may/31/tiller-shot-death-wichita-church/#commentsion that the shooter is a leftist is race.
Of course, unless someone can provide information to the contrary, none of this has anything to do with Tiller , Roeder or abortion.
1 June 2009
at 1:54 p.m.
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kthxbi (Anonymous) says…
um.. I am a member of…No, I guess not. But did it make you feel better?
1 June 2009
at 1:56 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Oh, feeble, of course it does!
Certain posters are calling for an “apology” from pro-life groups for the killing of Dr. Tiller.
Although my posting will undoubtedly be termed “racist” by those same posters, my post is best described as a fine example of “Ad Absurdum”; merely a response to the riduculous requests.
1 June 2009
at 2:13 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Marion, instead of looking at things as a race issue for an apology, perhaps it should just be another in a long line of apologizes owed to the American people by the gun-rights lobby and NRA members.
Guns, when used as intended, kill.
1 June 2009
at 2:21 p.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
beatrice, your ignorance is astounding.
1 June 2009
at 2:51 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
75, please explain. Are you saying that guns don't kill when used as intended?
Guns are the one thing that the death of Tiller and the killing in Little Rock have in common. I find that far more important than the racial issue Marion was discussing. So please, do go on about my ignorance — in the meantime, how many people will be killed by guns in America today? It is gnorance that makes people ignore the truth about gun violence in our society.
1 June 2009
at 2:56 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Marion, instead of looking at things as a race issue for an apology”
Marion writes:
Toldja that “certain” posters would play the so-called “race card” even after I had told them what I was realy up to.
Perfect.
1 June 2009
at 3:01 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
The key differences here is that we had prior information about Tiller. There has been very harsh language advocating violence directed at Tiller before.
He was shot by a self-avowed member of pro-life movement, and his clinic was bombed. As far as I can tell, this sort of prior history does not exist in the Little Rock case.
Now, if the shooter turns out to be a campaign staffer for Obama's Arkansas operation, had met several times with Axelrod or has Obama's cell number on an envelope in his car, had previously joined violent, anti-military organizations or expressed violent anti-war opinions. I would concede that you are closer to having a point. Of course, the vast majority of citizens on the left do not hold negative views of the military, whereas the opposite cannot be said for the Right on matters of reproductive freedom.
However, as it currently stands, there is not evidence to suggest that this recruiting office has been targeted by left-wing radicals in the past, nor is there evidence suggesting that the two vets were themselves previously targets of domestic left-wing radicals.
In Tiller's case, we have a preponderance of evidence showing that radical right wing conservatives have targeted Tiller and his practice in the past. We have *years* of evidence.
In the Little Rock case, all you have is unfounded attribution about the shooter based on race.
Posters trolling for some kind of apology are being disingenuous at best.
1 June 2009
at 3:12 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
feeble (Anonymous), you talkin' to me?
You talkin' to me?
Who are you addressing?
Can't be me because I never wrote that the Ark perp was a lefty.
1 June 2009
at 3:14 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
So far we know that a single man committed a crime. One man murdered another man. If convicted the man guilty of the crime will be punished. That is how justice works.
All of this politically motivated bs about what group he was or was not a member of, or what his beliefs were don't matter outside of his prosecution. It wasn't a group that committed this act it was a man.
There is a big difference in wanting someone dead and going out and making it happen. In a free country people are not punished for their beliefs. They are punished if those beliefs are followed by criminal action.
1 June 2009
at 3:23 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Marion, but you were talking about race. I'm certainly not playing any “race card,” nor do I know anything about the other case other than it is another example of gun violence in America, which I feel is more pertinent than the race issues you posted. You, Marion, are the only one to discuss race in relations to these disconnected cases. You.
1 June 2009
at 3:35 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
_______________________
Marion Lynn Tuesday, July 29, 2008: “Tiller The Killer may well be headed for the Greybar Hotel.With any luck, the Kansas Angel of Death will be locked away for years and I hope that he does drop the soap regularly.”
_______________________________
Marion Lynn Thursday, January 31, 2008 “Adolf Eichmann was anonymous, right up until he wasn't. So it is with the baby killers and those who advocate for Auschwitz On The Plains! They also have their “Wansee Conference” with Tiller as group leader!”
__________________
Marion Lynn Thursday, January 31, 2008
Tiller = Mengele.
_____________________
Marion Lynn Sunday, May 31, 2009
Maybe if one or more of those Lutherans, who are Christians also, as was Tiller, had possessed a concealed weapons permit, the Goodly Doctor might have been saved.
_________________________________
Marion Lynn Tuesday, February 5, 2008
Tiller charges a bundle for killin' all those babies so he has a lot of it to spread around; each dollar stained with the blood of a murdered child.
________________________________
Marion Lynn Thursday, January 31, 2008
Oh, well; there is nothing to weep about as fetuses are not “alive” according to “Pro-Choice” people.
Fetuses are only blobs of unviable protoplasm, much like an amoebae out of water.
Pull off the legs, suck out the brains, shoot in some acid and let'em rip!
Tiller The Killer; The Kansas Angel Of Death!
Support the selection!
Do not stand in the way of the extermination!
40,000,000 is only a NUMBER!
Just ask Joseph Stalin!
Wir müssen die Babies ausrotten!
_________________________________
Marion Lynn Thursday, October 26, 2006
Tiller is nothing more than a serial killer.
Tiller The Killer.
Thanks.
Marion.
__________________________________
Marion Lynn Thursday, October 26, 2006
Some info on The Thoroughly Modern Mengele; Dr. Tiller:
http://www.dr-tiller.com/
Thanks.
Marion.
1 June 2009
at 3:35 p.m.
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notyourmom (Anonymous) says…
I still say that if a man could get pregnant, abortion would be a god given right. And since it would be a quality of life thing, insurance would pay for it.
1 June 2009
at 3:39 p.m.
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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…
notyourmom, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be legal, available on every street corner, and fully-funded by the federal government.
If boys could get pregnant, abortion would be sanctioned by the Vatican, and blessed by the Pope.
—Ag
1 June 2009
at 3:42 p.m.
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tom_bodett (Anonymous) says…
Thank god he is dead!
1 June 2009
at 4 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Marion, but you were talking about race. ”
Marion writes:
In the original post, I did not mention race.
I mentioned it in a susequent post on the matter in which I predicted what you would do.
Apologies Ad Absurdum, remember?
And Boston_Corbett, you will note that I called only for proper legal action against Tiller with a few prison jokes on the side.
No calls for violence.
1 June 2009
at 4:33 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
If it were a right wing pastor who died, my guess is there would be a major role reversal. So many people here are hypocrites.
1 June 2009
at 4:34 p.m.
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Katara (Anonymous) says…
Marion (Marion Lynn) says… And Boston_Corbett, you will note that I called only for proper legal action against Tiller with a few prison jokes on the side.
No calls for violence.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pure unadulterated bull crap! Your rhetoric about abortion on LJW is absolutely no different from the rhetoric spouted by Randall Terry and his Operation Rescue and other like-minded misogynistic terrorists.
Each and every word you chose to use in the examples, Boston_Corbett are couched in violence. And you are surprised when it ends in violence.
You and every other person who engages in that type of rhetoric know exactly what you are doing - manipulating the emotions of others - whipping people up into a frenzy.
Words have power. You chose to use yours irresponsibly and are “outraged” when someone takes them seriously.
Free Speech is one of our most important rights but it never ever absolves you from the responsibility of your words.
1 June 2009
at 4:49 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
So, Katara….
Are you responsible if your words upset someone and they commit an act of violence, say against Operation Rescue or Randall Terry? After all, you were clearly upset, and your emotions are clear from the rhetoric that you are using. People logically want to protect their family and loved ones against “terrorists”. So, if your words and emotion whip someone up into a frenzy who then commits an act of violence, are you going to take responsibility?
Oh, but I am sure there is a difference….I am holding my breath.
1 June 2009
at 4:53 p.m.
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gogoplata (Anonymous) says…
What goes around comes around.
One murderer killed by another.
1 June 2009
at 4:58 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Marion: “In the original post, I did not mention race. I mentioned it in a susequent post on the matter in which I predicted what you would do.”
In other words, you mentioned race first and I said it isn't an issue. Wow. You sure got me there.
By the way, this remains a gun violence issue.
1 June 2009
at 5:01 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Beatrice…
“this remains a gun violence issue”
Guns are violent? I knew I shouldn't have made fun of them when we were kids.
1 June 2009
at 5:08 p.m.
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artichokeheart (Anonymous) says…
Words only have the power one allows them to have. I have noticed those who put so much power into hate speech are the greatest offenders. However it appears some have a real problem with their own logic being used against them.
1 June 2009
at 5:47 p.m.
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Katara (Anonymous) says…
Satirical (Anonymous) says…
So, Katara….
Are you responsible if your words upset someone and they commit an act of violence, say against Operation Rescue or Randall Terry? After all, you were clearly upset, and your emotions are clear from the rhetoric that you are using. People logically want to protect their family and loved ones against “terrorists”. So, if your words and emotion whip someone up into a frenzy who then commits an act of violence, are you going to take responsibility?
Oh, but I am sure there is a difference….I am holding my breath.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please point out where I have used any inflammatory rhetoric. At most, I used the word “terrorist” and that is an accurate description of one (or a group) that wishes to end an action/or negate an opinion by violence and instilling fear into others that do not share their views. I don't think you would disagree with that definition.
Emotion does not always equal inflammatory. One can express one'e emotion without couching the discussion in violence or violent imagery. One can also express one's emotion without portraying the “opposing” party as pure evil or inhuman.
I am confident that you do know the difference and understand it well.
1 June 2009
at 6:55 p.m.
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bkgarner (Brent Garner) says…
Given that the majority of those who have posted here believe that all those opposed to abortion are complicit with Mr. Tiller's killer and should be treated as domestic terrorists, etc., I have a question.
This morning, in Little Rock, AK, a black man in an SUV drove up to a US Army recruiting center and fired several shots. One US Army soldier was killed and another wounded. The perpetrator is in custody. Using the logic of those who have so loudly called for punishment of those opposed to abortion should we then respond to this act of “terrorism” in LIttle Rock by arresting each and every black man we can find? The absurdity of that is self-evident as is the absurdity of the abortionists calling for a police state tpye action against those who oppose abortion.
1 June 2009
at 7:06 p.m.
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jonas_opines (Anonymous) says…
“And shame on all of you here that condemn Christians for this act. Every 'side' has its fruitcakes, and those that grab onto an issue and claim to be part of a group and its beliefs. This person was part of the fringe, and using his completely wrong actions to lash out at groups you don't like is foolish.”
While I applaud your sentiments, Tacobob, I wonder if your rather continuous postings about The Dems and The Libs really entitles you to post that.
1 June 2009
at 7:09 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
Come on Brent, if you are going to post then at least take the time to carefully read all 465+ posts that others have written before you. It is your duty to the LJWorld board.
As I've already written, race isn't the issue: we obviously aren't rounding up all white people for Tiller's murder so why should we round up black people for the sad case in Little Rock? However, if we are going to hold anyone complicit in both cases, it should be gun owners, the NRA and its members, since guns were used in both instances. Killing others with guns = The American Way!
How many more will be killed in America by someone using a gun before the week is up?
1 June 2009
at 7:23 p.m.
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lavoy (Anonymous) says…
If the doctor was an aborshionist, it does not neccessary mean he was killed because of who he was professionally.
And if he was killed because he performed abortions, the person does not have to be a pro-lifer to do it.
It is very narrow-minded to think that a christian person would do something like that. Perhaps, it was set up that way that the christians would get the blame. It would certainly be convenient for all the christian haters.
1 June 2009
at 7:28 p.m.
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beobachter (Anonymous) says…
lavoy, do you also believe Elvis is still alive and there was a shooter on the grassy knoll?
1 June 2009
at 7:31 p.m.
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Katara (Anonymous) says…
“When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.”
—Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, speaking of doctors who perform abortions, in an address to the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance, 8/08/95
1 June 2009
at 7:34 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Katara….
“I am confident that you do know the difference and understand it well.”
I see the difference between a hypocrite (you) and someone who knows how to argue without demonizing and characterizing their opponents.
–––––––––
“Please point out where I have used any inflammatory rhetoric.” – Katara
“Your rhetoric about abortion on LJW is absolutely no different from the rhetoric spouted by Randall Terry and his Operation Rescue and other like-minded misogynistic terrorists.” – Katara at 4:34 p.m. on June 1, 2009
––––––––—
“I used the word “terrorist” and that is an accurate description” – Katara
You grouped Marion and associate him with other people/groups whom YOU describe as a “terrorist.” You are the one “that wishes to end an action/or negate (Marion’s) opinion by instilling fear into others that do not share their views (by calling him a terrorist).
––––––––—
“One can also express one's emotion without portraying the “opposing” party as pure evil or inhuman.” – Katara
Which is exactly what you did when you did more than insinuate Marion was a terrorist:
“Your rhetoric about abortion on LJW is absolutely no different from the rhetoric spouted by Randall Terry and his Operation Rescue and other like-minded misogynistic terrorists.” – Katara at 4:34 p.m. on June 1, 2009
–––––––––
I understand that you group Marion with other groups, rather than quote him directly, to make it easier to attack him.
I understand you claim he should be responsible if a listener decides to take action based on his words, but deny that you too should be responsible for the same.
I understand that when you use inflammatory rhetoric to get your point across you think it is okay because the ends justify the means, but attack others for doing the same.
1 June 2009
at 7:59 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Katara….
“I am confident that you do know the difference and understand it well.”
I see the difference between a hypocrite (you) and someone who knows how to argue without demonizing and characterizing their opponents.
–––––––––
“Please point out where I have used any inflammatory rhetoric.” – Katara
“Your rhetoric about abortion on LJW is absolutely no different from the rhetoric spouted by Randall Terry and his Operation Rescue and other like-minded misogynistic terrorists.” – Katara at 4:34 p.m. on June 1, 2009
––––––––—
“I used the word “terrorist” and that is an accurate description” – Katara
You grouped Marion and associate him with other people/groups whom YOU describe as a “terrorist.” You are the one “that wishes to end an action/or negate (Marion’s) opinion by instilling fear into others that do not share their views (by calling him a terrorist).
––––––––—
“One can also express one's emotion without portraying the “opposing” party as pure evil or inhuman.” – Katara
Which is exactly what you did when you did more than insinuate Marion was a terrorist:
“Your rhetoric about abortion on LJW is absolutely no different from the rhetoric spouted by Randall Terry and his Operation Rescue and other like-minded misogynistic terrorists.” – Katara at 4:34 p.m. on June 1, 2009
–––––––––
I understand that you group Marion with other groups, rather than quote him directly, to make it easier to attack him.
I understand you claim he should be responsible if a listener decides to take action based on his words, but deny that you too should be responsible for the same.
I understand that when you use inflammatory rhetoric to get your point across you think it is okay because the ends justify the means, but attack others for doing the same.”
Marion writes:
Nice takedown!
Thanks!
1 June 2009
at 8:05 p.m.
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Katara (Anonymous) says…
Satirical,
I would encourage you to read Marion's past posts on abortion and then to do a side by side comparison with quotes from Randall Terry and other organizations that have been associated with violence against doctors & clinics that preform abortions.
And then I would like for you to explain the difference between the rhetoric Marion has used here on LJW in his posts (Boston_Corbett provides you a small sampling of them) and the rhetoric used by the above mentioned organizations.
And then I would like for you to explain how I am incorrect in my assessment of Marion's posts or how pointing out the similarities between his rhetoric and those of pro-life extremists is inflammatory or could potential incite someone to engage in violence against Marion or anyone else associated with the above mentioned organizations.
Many who have pro-life beliefs are able to express them without comparing those with pro-choice beliefs to Mengele, the Angel of Death, serial killers, etc just as Marion has done.
There are many who have pro-life beliefs that work to reduce the number of abortions without advocating or invoking imagery of violence. These people help reduce unwanted pregnancies by providing education, effective birth control and support for women that have unplanned pregnancies. These are responsible people who know the power of their words and use them in positive ways. And their ways are effective.
But anyhow, I'll wait for you to explain how Marion's and the organizations that use similar rhetoric don't contribute to violence against a legal activity.
1 June 2009
at 8:24 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Well, my, my!
Turns out that the fellow who shot up the recruiting office was indeed motivated by religion and his actions certainly meet the criteria for “terrorism” set down by certain posters on this forum.
Seems the guy's name is Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad and he is a 24-year-old Little Rock resident formerly known as Carlos Bledsoe.
Plice have said that his terrorism was motivated by “religious reasons”; his “religion”, of course, being Islam.
Tsk, tsk.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/a…
From the citation:
“While authorities continued to investigate a motive, Thomas said Muhammad is a Muslim convert and, based on preliminary interviews with him, investigators believe there were “political and religious motives” in the shooting.”
1 June 2009
at 8:43 p.m.
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feeble (Anonymous) says…
Indeed he is, and as I stated in my 12:30p. I hope he gets the harshest sentence under law. More info on the perp here: http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansa…
In reference to your earlier question Marion, I was directing my comments to the forum at larger, but mostly Arumer.
1 June 2009
at 8:44 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Apparently Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad took to heart the Left's hatred of the military and all things American and decided to kill one guy and wound another over it.
Certainly need to shut down all that hate speech from the Left, don't you think?
I think the Left should apologise, don't you?
1 June 2009
at 9:30 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Katara…
“…read Marion's past posts on abortion and then to do a side by side comparison with quotes from Randall Terry…”
You are the one making the argument that Marion’s quotes are similar to those of Randall Terry, not I. I am not going to do your job for you. I don’t have to prove they are dissimilar. I have never said, nor tried to argue one way or another, I just find your hypocrisy amusing and thought I would point it out. But apparently the statements aren’t very similar or else you would have already done a side-by-side comparison to support your argument.
––––-
“And then I would like for you to explain how…pointing out the similarities between his rhetoric and those of pro-life extremists is inflammatory or could potential incite someone to engage in violence against Marion or anyone else associated with the above mentioned organizations.” - Katara
Calling someone a terrorist is emotionally charged rhetoric used to disable critical thinking about the opposition and authorize violence to stop them.
“Many who have pro-(choice) beliefs are able to express them without comparing those with pro-(life) beliefs to (terrorist), etc just as (Katara) has done.”
You would be much more convincing if you practiced what you preached. I am sure (as you have already stated) the difference in your mind is that you really feel these people are similar to terrorists so you feel justified in your analogy, and don't feel it incites violence, even though others may disagree. But what you seem to fail to understand is the opposition really feels people who perform late are child killers, and their analogies are justified, and don't feel it incites violence, even though other may disagree. So really you are doing exactly what you think is disgusting.
1 June 2009
at 9:32 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
Marion: “And Boston_Corbett, you will note that I called only for proper legal action against Tiller with a few prison jokes on the side”
________________
So, hoping that a person be subjected to prison rape and sodomy is a joke?
Yea. That's a real funny joke Marion. It is advocating violence. And you have recommended the same for others on LJW forum. Search your own posts, angry old man.
1 June 2009
at 9:35 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Correction: “But what you seem to fail to understand is the opposition really feels people who perform late (term abortions) are child killers…”
1 June 2009
at 9:44 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Arumer…
I wonder what would happen if people started stereotyping Muslims (the religion of the person who allegedly committed this crime) the way so many on this blog have stereotyped those the Religious Right, or Christians or pro-lifers. I wonder what they would do if people started saying all Muslims terrorists, etc. (which I would never do, nor advocate someone doing).
My guess is they would be the first to defend Muslims. Isn’t hypocrisy funny.
And once they find out the kook was a Muslim religious nut-job, not a Christian nut-job they are all strangely silent about religious motivations. I guess in their backwards world it isn't really persecution if you are persecuting the majority religion.
1 June 2009
at 9:44 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
regarding Satirical's 9:30 response to Katara.
Without responding to the length of your exchange, just let me agree with Katara that the rhetoric used by some on these boards mimics very much that of Randall Terry, in intent, tone, and vocabulary. You know some of the names.
And Satirical, if we did print such a “comparison” the LJW mods would pull it, as they already have, of mine, on this very topic.
Non-stop speech intending to inflame and incite has implications. Those like Randall Terry, and yes some on these boards, bear some moral responsibility for what has happened.
Why else are the supposed Pro-Life groups taking down all their hate-speech web-sites and forums? They just can't erase the you-tubes and transcripts.
1 June 2009
at 9:46 p.m.
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WhiteDog (Anonymous) says…
Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Apparently Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad took to heart the Left's hatred of the military and all things American and decided to kill one guy and wound another over it.
Certainly need to shut down all that hate speech from the Left, don't you think?
I think the Left should apologise, don't you?
***************************
ArumerZwarteHoop (Anonymous) says…
Thsoe anti war protesters are dangerous animals. We need to make sure there is no hate speach floating around that would inspire more of these incidents.
***************************
Really? You want us to buy that this person was incited to violence against the American military because of anti-war protesters? That's almost as absurd as the insistence that the soap remark wasn't an allusion to sodomy. You got a bridge to sell me, too?
1 June 2009
at 9:54 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Boston_Corbett…
Your agreement is noted, but you still have not supported your argument with any facts, so your agreement is meaningless at this point.
––––—
“And Satirical, if we did print such a “comparison” the LJW mods would pull it, as they already have, of mine, on this very topic.”
Odd that Katara’s post at 7:31 p.m. has a direct quote from Randall Terry which has yet to be pulled, which you claim would happen. And if you are able to copy a past a quote from Marion, then my guess is since they didn’t pull the post before, they wouldn’t do it this time. So looks like you would be able to do a side-by-side comparison. Also, the fact that the LJWorld has (as you claim) removed some of Randall Terry's quotes, and not some of Marion's posts is further evidence they don't agree they are substantially similar. Sorry, but again the fact still don’t support your theory.
––––––-
“Those like Randall Terry, and yes some on these boards, bear some moral responsibility for what has happened.” – Boston_Corbett
So you would agree that is someone called pro-choicers terrorists they would bear some moral responsibility for what has happened?
–––––
“Why else are the supposed Pro-Life groups taking down all their hate-speech web-sites and forums?” – Boston_Corbett
Again, no evidence to support your claim. Why am I not surprised.
1 June 2009
at 9:55 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Correction: “So you would agree that (if) someone called pro-choicers “terrorists” they would bear some moral responsibility for what has (or could) happen?”
1 June 2009
at 9:59 p.m.
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tennesseerader (Anonymous) says…
I shed no tears for this murderer. My tears are shed for the most innocent that he killed.
1 June 2009
at 10:02 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
If you follow twitter traffic, the pro-life groups, other than engaging today in the wholesale destruction of their hate web sites and forums, are also raising the same red-herring of the Arkansas shooting.
That dog don't hunt.
1 June 2009
at 10:09 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Boston_Corbett…
Was that last post a response to me? Still only anecdotal evidence to support your claim? I guess the phrase “real evidence” just doesn't compute.
Also, were you going to respond to my other questions/statements or were you just planning on dodging them and instead pondering why your dog won't hunt.
1 June 2009
at 10:15 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
WhiteDog…
Maybe he was incited to violence because he thought the guy was Rush Limbaugh….
“'Rush Limbaugh, I hope the country fails, I hope his kidneys fail, how about that? He needs a good waterboarding, that's what he needs.' Obama thought this bit was pretty hilarious, grinning and chuckling and turning to share the “joke” with the person sitting on his right.”
http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2009…
1 June 2009
at 10:17 p.m.
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lwctown (Anonymous) says…
Nobody deserves to get shot down in cold blood. This was completely preventable however …if only his Tillers or Roeders mother would have believed in abortion and exercised her right this would have never happened.
1 June 2009
at 10:18 p.m.
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Boston_Corbett (Anonymous) says…
Yes Satirical, it was a response to you. And others.
1 June 2009
at 10:30 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
Let's do some terminology…
I think pro-life is a bit absurd…the opposite is pro-death. Does anyone honestly believe that those who believe in choice are running around believing death is the best option? No. So, pro-choice or anti choice are correct terms to use. Anti choice isn't a bad label; it simply means that a women shouldn't be able to choose to terminate the fetus (based on the principle that it is already living). Thus, pro choice believes that a woman has a right to terminate her pregnancy based on her own beliefs.. Pro-life and Pro choice just don't seem oppose eachother correctly.
And another thing, pro abortion is another term that shouldn't be used. That's like saying abort abort abort all fetuses.
1 June 2009
at 10:36 p.m.
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WhiteDog (Anonymous) says…
Ok, Satirical,
But what do you have to say about THIS?????
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,5…
It took me a long time, I have to admit, to find an article equally cogent to the discussion of Dr. Tiller's murder as the one you posted, but I think I got it.
1 June 2009
at 10:55 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
One must think deeply about his operations. Most, if not all, of the late term abortions that he preformed were not because a woman simply did not want her baby. Many of these women had drug and alcohol problems. By the time they learned of their pregancies, the fetus was already suffering and would have continued suffering after birth. It would have to deal with a drug dependent mother who may or may not get it together. There are millions of children that need to be adopted. Not many families want to take on a birth defected infant. Other women were already mothers who had already birthed children. Their lives were in extreme danger. Save the fetus or the mother already supporting her developed children? To say that he killed tons of innocent lives does not even touch the point of his legal services. There is a lot more to it than that, it was never and never will be a question of “innocent lives.” The right to terminate a pregnancy is not just about the fetus.
From a personal viewpoint, late term abortions sicken me, they honestly do. The procedure is violent, the fetus can feel it and the woman's body endures a lot of pain and disruption. But I need to be logical and I know that some of my fellow women need these medical procedures. All that I can do is share my love and compassion with them. The body that is theirs, is just that, their own.
Aside from that, late term abortions always require a second opinion, for the sake of fetus.
How about the anti choice folks out there start working on mental health care for women who have been through these operations?
1 June 2009
at 11:25 p.m.
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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…
Excellent post 9070811. I agree with everything you said except for the use of “anti-choice”.
Those who oppose abortion aren't against the general notion of choice, only the right to choose in a specific situation. Moreover, the thing they are specifically fighting is abortion, making them literally “anti-abortion”.
Plus, “anti-abortion” isn't a negative term if your fundamental principle is that abortion is wrong.
But regardless, yours was a well thought-out comment.
1 June 2009
at 11:28 p.m.
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parlet (Anonymous) says…
500
1 June 2009
at 11:42 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Arumer…
I wonder what would happen if people started stereotyping Muslims (the religion of the person who allegedly committed this crime) the way so many on this blog have stereotyped those the Religious Right, or Christians or pro-lifers. I wonder what they would do if people started saying all Muslims terrorists, etc. (which I would never do, nor advocate someone doing).
My guess is they would be the first to defend Muslims. Isn’t hypocrisy funny.
And once they find out the kook was a Muslim religious nut-job, not a Christian nut-job they are all strangely silent about religious motivations. I guess in their backwards world it isn't really persecution if you are persecuting the majority religion.”
Marion writes:
Nice!
Thank you for your insightful post!
1 June 2009
at 11:45 p.m.
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bkgarner (Brent Garner) says…
Beatrice, for your information I have read every post here. In fact, I have re-read the entire list at least three times since the announcement of Mr. Tiller's death. What I am referring to, and which you do not seem to be able to understand, is the extreme anger of those who are opposed to conservative, Christian, anti-abortion people. I have seen post after post after post in which such people are villified as “terrorists”. That is a very strong term. The anger coming from such posts is murderous. I cited the Little Rock incident in an effort to show just how ignorant and absurd those hateful posts are. You apparently cannot see that. You are blinded by your issue which is the ownership of firearms. For your information I have never seen a firearm, gun, weapon, call it what you may, jump up and harm anyone. They cannot. They are inanimate objects. It requires a human being to pick up one and decide, usually before hand, that they are going to harm someone else. Now, what you gun control advocates seem to think is that if you rid the world of guns then all would be peaceful and safe. Australia, to cite an example, has done just that. Sadly, violent crime such as robberies and home invasions have shot up. Why? Because the criminal element, people who couldn't care less what the law says, do not care nor ever intend to abide by your gun control laws. Only those who are law abiding will and in doing so they automatically create a body of people on which the criminal element knows it can prey without risk or danger. Or, are you proposing a well armed police detachment posted on every block? Excuse, that sounds just a bit Soviet-like to me. No thank you.
If we were to truly follow your logic to its natural conclusion then we should also remove from every home knives, forks, needles, etc. and any other inanimate object with which a human being may harm another. Now, wouldn't that be absurd? Well, so is your position. People kill people. Objects do not kill people.
2 June 2009
at 8:32 a.m.
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ksdivakat (Anonymous) says…
Wow! Nothing since last night, Im impressed! So let me start today by saying this, what I believed yesterday to be true, may not be what I think today. Let me explain….I stated yesterday that I didnt like abortion, however, I also am very sad for Tillers family and think that he should be mourned as he was killed in sucha heinous way.
Last night, I heard our Governor say something that for the first time since Ive ever heard a politician speak made sense, and made me start to think…..He said that we have to get over this crap that the right is terrorists and the left are baby killers. We have to agree that we just have 2 very different views about a controversial subject, before we can even begin to have a conversation about it. That struck a cord with me, as it makes total sense.
So, I have decided that I should have more of an open mind and I should be more than willing to sit down and have a discussion about this issue.
So I would not be against it, if there were Governing practices that overseen this. Let me explain. In this day and age of technology, we have sonograms that can pinpoint when the baby was concieved, how much it weighs, and we even have 3-D and 4-D sonos now, along with other technology that can and does determine if there is an issue BEFORE 21 weeks gestation. So this makes the NEED for a late term abortion, almost obsolete.
Ok so this is the rights side of the story. So the lefts side would be that its her body and her decision, again, this is true, so why cant we compromise????
Why cant we say, as a country, that it is a womans right to choose, however, we are going to do this under constant supervision under specific guidelines set down by the medical association, (or whoever makes the medical rules)SO a woman whose baby might have slipped through the systems checks and balances with technology, and for some reason the woman wants a late term abortion, why cant it be done in a hospital as a surgery, where the patient can be monitored for several days to make sure there are no complications? To make sure that there are no Doctors out there making money off the backs of emotionally spent women who feel this is the only option? We have to remember this, Tiller was no saint, but then again none of us are. But in his tenure, Tiller is responsible for over 60,000 abortions…when you figure that in terms of dollars and cents…thats a whole lotta money! This is my problem with it, abortion is a money making procedure, and it is my belief, that it is practiced mostly without the womans best interest as a priority. But this is just my opinion. I hope that someday, we can start having a real conversation about it, and not call names, not insult each other, and certainly, and most importantly not kill each other over ones beliefs.
2 June 2009
at 9:04 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Clearly, 'free speech' is far too dangerous for it to be allowed for those that have any deeply held convictions and opinions. After all, those folks are just 'terrorists-in-waiting'.
2 June 2009
at 12:09 p.m.
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beatrice (Anonymous) says…
brentg: “I have seen post after post after post in which such people are villified as “terrorists”. That is a very strong term. The anger coming from such posts is murderous.”
So terrorists is too strong, but murderous isn't. Okay.
“For your information I have never seen a firearm, gun, weapon, call it what you may, jump up and harm anyone.”
Guns don't kill people, but they do make it a lot easier. Same is true of anti-aircraft missles and nuclear weapons. I guess you think those are reasonable weapons then.
“Australia, to cite an example, has done just that. Sadly, violent crime such as robberies and home invasions have shot up.”
Yet how many murders by someone using a gun are committed in Australia each year?
And the other objects you mentioned — knives, forks, etc. — have another primary purpose. The primary purpose of a gun is to fire a bullet. That is it.
The problem I see, Brent, is that you appear to mistake my meaning. I'm not an all out anti-gun “nut,” as you might say. The right to own is right there in the Constitution. I appreciate that fact. I'm much more in line with the idea that all gun owners should at least go through the conceal and carry rules in order to arm themselves. You may not agree. Fair enough.
However, my point is simply that if we are saying that hate speech can lead to violent acts and that those who are saying the hateful things may be complicit in the violence, then in a country that far exceeds others in the industrial world in deaths and murders by guns, then the gun rights groups are then likewise also complicit in those deaths. I'd say the same of automanufacturers when it comes to car deaths, which in turn leads to safer cars.
I'd just love to hear gun owners admit that they understand that guns in a society leads to more deaths by guns in that society, but it is a price they are willing to pay in order to have their gun.
I'll openly acknowledge that there are more deaths by automobiles than guns, and that I drive as a convenience. I don't like that our roads are dangerous, but I acknowledge that moving faster than one can walk poses dangers. The risk is one I am willing to take and feel most of society agrees with me.
Why can't you simply admit that living in a society with guns poses dangers as well? Guns are the one thing that ties these two kilings together. How many killings by guns become too many before society stands up and starts to ask serious questions — that is my point.
2 June 2009
at 1:55 p.m.
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parlet (Anonymous) says…
Guns were created solely to wound or kill other living things. Gun nuts are just weak, frightened little people.
2 June 2009
at 2:15 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Boston_Corbett…
“Yes Satirical, it was a response to you. And others.”
Still refusing to answer or respond to my other questions I see. So be it.
2 June 2009
at 2:18 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
9070811…
“Pro-life and Pro choice just don't seem oppose eachother correctly.”
I think you just don’t quite get it yet. The whole point is that there are competing interests. It doesn’t have to be a polar opposite in order to contradict it. For example, assuming ‘X’ and ‘Y’ are mutually exclusive, if one person supports ‘X’, the other person can oppose them by supporting ‘Y’. The other person doesn’t have to support ‘not X’ (the polar opposite) to oppose ‘X’ “correctly”.
I think you could have summed up your statement by simply saying, “I agree with the rhetoric used to label the side with which I agree (pro-choice), rather than the rhetoric used to label the side with which I disagree (pro-life).
I could just as easily present opposite arguments claiming pro-life is better than anti-choice and pro-choice would be more correctly labeled as pro-death. But this is pointless since the whole point is there are competing interests. Only fools think their side is the only side with legitimate arguments in this debate.
2 June 2009
at 2:22 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
WhiteDog…
“But what do you have to say about THIS????? (link)”
I tried the link twice and I didn’t find anything applicable on that link.
2 June 2009
at 2:35 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
Ksdivakat…
You are taking what I believe is a very sensible and pragmatic approach. I agree that both sides of this debate have legitimate arguments, need to listen each other, and should not demonize the opposition.
After Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the government can impose substantial restrictions on abortions after the point of viability (Roe v. Wade trimester approach changed). With medical science continuing to advance, the point of viability keeps moving further and further back towards conception, and will inevitably lead to fewer abortions legally allowed.
I don’t think there is a lot of disagreement for abortions that are necessary for the life or significant physical health of the mothers; the true debate is about elective abortions (for mental health). I think this needs to be solved on two fronts, as Obama stated, trying to prevent the number of unwanted abortions, and educating women on the options available and consequences of an abortion. These things can be done without changing the current state of the law, and I believe are sensible approaches. Assume PP v. Casey doesn't get overturned, I think medical science will take care of the rest.
2 June 2009
at 3:17 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
Satirical,
I already understood what you pointed out.
2 June 2009
at 3:22 p.m.
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WhiteDog (Anonymous) says…
Satirical,
That was the point.
And I think you might be mis-named.
2 June 2009
at 3:28 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
9070811…
“I already understood what you pointed out”
So you recant your post at 10:30 on June 1, 2009?
2 June 2009
at 3:33 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
WhiteDog…
If that was your attempt to be humorous you could have found a post that referenced the mating habit of whales or something. Then specifically stated to which of my posts you were comparing. Keep trying my young apprentice.
2 June 2009
at 3:51 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
Dude, Satirical, you're obnoxious and argumentative. I just want a two term system that correctly describes two opposing points. Therefor, pro life and pro death don't work for this issue.
As for you asking me if I recant… no I don't. People are allowed and can understand both sides. While also understanding its background, theory, whatever. Understanding a point of view and desiring another are very different things.
As for the use of pro life. I prefer the term for that belief, its positive and convincing. But its opposite is pro death, which does not accurately reflect the opposing belief.
So there's your needed explanation, it's just a small pet peeve of mine, that you felt was necessary to dissect.
You chose a very good blogger name to describe your motivations.
2 June 2009
at 4:09 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
9070811…
How dare you claim that I challenge preconceived notions and try to argue with people!! Oh, wait that is what I do.
I am not sure if my first post was over your head, because you said you agreed, but then just reposted your original post, when those two are mutually exclusive. So, let me try to make this even easier for you to understand.
––––––––––––
“I just want a two term system that correctly describes two opposing points.” - 9070811
The two terms (pro-choice, and pro-life) do describe the interest each side is advocating or wanting to protect. By claiming one term correctly describes one side, but the other side incorrectly describes the other side really shows you don’t understand the other side.
–––––––––-
“But its opposite is pro death, which does not accurately reflect the opposing belief.” - 9070811
Again, you seem to think in order to be opposed to something one must take the polar-opposite position, which isn’t true. You are clearly trying to label the group, with whom you don’t agree, with a different term because it makes it easier to support your belief that they aren’t really wanting to protect a legitimate interest.
I could say just as easily say “anti-choice” doesn’t accurately reflect the opposing belief, and since abortion kills (whether it is a fetus, a person, or whatever you want to label it), the term “anti-life” is more accurate. But then I would be guilty of the same fallacy as you. I would seek to simply the arguments to make it easier to support my preconceived opinion rather than try to objectively and honestly try to understand that each side has a legitimate argument and wants to support a legitimate interest. And if this is too argumentative for you, I apologize for being a gadfly.
2 June 2009
at 4:25 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
You really get worked up about a whole lot of nothing. I said….it's just a small pet peeve of mine. And yes I would like polar opposite terms. Agreeing and understanding are two different things.
And I agree most with anti choice but there are lots of negative things that can come out of many carried to term pregnancies.
You are clearly trying to label the group, with whom you don’t agree, with a different term because it makes it easier to support your belief that they aren’t really wanting to protect a legitimate interest.”
That was never my point. I think you just like to think the worst of people.
2 June 2009
at 4:37 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
To me, anti choice means:
You have become pregnant with the gift of growing an another human being. The human being is here to be loved and cared for by you or something who is out there if you aren't able to do either of those things. The choice of dealth should not exsist because it is a life. We have to realize, though, that there are many, many outstanding circumstances in which this decision presents itself. Which is why it has to remain as a legal medical procedure.
Which is why we need to have more clinics like the Choices Medical Clinic. But they shouldn't all be based on Jesus, cause a lot of women probably don't want to get into that.
2 June 2009
at 4:41 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
9070811…
I am not worked up at all. I am as calm as could be. I think you are confusing logical arguments with “get(ting) worked up.”
–––––––—
“That was never my point. I think you just like to think the worst of people.” - 9070811
It may never have been your conscience objective to alter the label of one of the groups to support your preconceived opinion rather than try to objectively and honestly try to understand that each side has a legitimate argument, but that is the end result.
The whole reason each side choice the term “pro-life” or “pro-choice”, respectively, is because it succinctly sums up the interests they believe they are protecting, and it is stated in a way that no one would want to be the polar opposite (but people that can think for themselves know they are not the polar opposite simply because the hold an opposing view). But since you only want polar opposites, as do many unintelligent individuals, of course you don’t want to think of yourself as anti-life. So, you would rather label the other group as anti-choice because that fits better with your preconceived notions of what is “right,” and doesn’t make you out to be something that you view is negative.
This exactly what the people who make these phrases want you to think. They want you to abandon critical thinking, oversimplifying the opposition, and just think in terms of labels, not actual arguments. Congratulations for falling for the bait and abandoning critical thinking to make it “easier” to satisfy your “pet peeve.”
2 June 2009
at 4:48 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
Maybe I just don't care what those people think. I use critical thinking. I don't care to satisfy my pet peeve (because I understand the meaning of the labels) and I didn't fall for any bait. It's just a simple thought.
I am not an untelligent individual.
I am not anti life, I want life for the baby.
2 June 2009
at 4:49 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
9070811…
“To me, anti choice means:”
Thank you for again illustrating you don’t understand the other side (call them whatever you want, it doesn’t change the fact you don’t truly understand their arguments). The funny thing is, I bet you get upset at “anti-choicers” that you think are thick-headed and won’t listen to your arguments, but you are doing exactly the same thing.
2 June 2009
at 4:57 p.m.
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Satirical (Anonymous) says…
9070811…
“It's just a simple thought”
I think you summed it up nicely. I agree, it is a “simple” thought.
I think we are done here.
2 June 2009
at 4:57 p.m.
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9070811 (Anonymous) says…
To me..
Doesn't mean that I don't understand the “otherside” it just means “to me.”
There are many different reasons as to why someone is anti choice because they support life.
2 June 2009
at 6:27 p.m.
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WhiteDog (Anonymous) says…
Oh come on, Satirical. Kate Gosselin in a bikini is MUCH more humorous than the mating habits of whales.
2 June 2009
at 9:14 p.m.
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RonaldWilson (Anonymous) says…
Admittedly, I didn't read the 500+ comment on this story, but what stands out is the lefties' desire for a pro-lifer to defend or justify Mr. Roeder's actions. It seems to be killing them that no one will do it. Most of the posts have condemned the guy and none I read have praised him for anything. They have this preconceived notion that pro-lifers somehow are secretly joyous that Tiller is dead. I'm pretty damned conservative, and I know no one who is joyous. We're disgusted that this has to occur at all. Some of us are not particularly sad about it, but no one I have spoken to thinks it should have happened. The worst comment I have heard in my right wing circle is “good riddance.” Hardly the hate speech you are all looking for.
2 June 2009
at 11:19 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
So, was Tiller's demise just an unusually-late-term abortion?
( … just trying to stay abreast of the cultural “evolution” of language. )
3 June 2009
at 4:15 a.m.
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roger_o_thornhill (Anonymous) says…
Glad this snooze-fest is put to rest. Time of death, 11:19p.m. Move on folks, nothing more to see here.
3 June 2009
at 7:31 p.m.
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jonas_opines (Anonymous) says…
“Admittedly, I didn't read the 500+ comment on this story, but what stands out is the lefties' desire for a pro-lifer to defend or justify Mr. Roeder's actions. It seems to be killing them that no one will do it. Most of the posts have condemned the guy and none I read have praised him for anything.”
Those comments got removed by the site staff. There have been a couple. (Not to suggest it in any way is indicative of anything more than individual mindsets.
By the way, I would consider “Good Riddance” in regards to a legally innocent man being cold-bloodedly murdered to be considered hate speech. Not that I'll stop you from saying it.
3 June 2009
at 8:39 p.m.
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TacoBob (Anonymous) says…
jonas_opines (Anonymous) says…
“And shame on all of you here that condemn Christians for this act. Every 'side' has its fruitcakes, and those that grab onto an issue and claim to be part of a group and its beliefs. This person was part of the fringe, and using his completely wrong actions to lash out at groups you don't like is foolish.”
While I applaud your sentiments, Tacobob, I wonder if your rather continuous postings about The Dems and The Libs really entitles you to post that.
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Well, I like to think so. *grin*
And I like to think I don't reach for the weak and lazy conclusion that many knee-jerk to when someone on the 'other' side flakes out. Case in point - when Blagojevich imploded, the easy argument was to take a swipe at all Dems and say he was the rule rather than the exception. He was and is a nut burger, and to say he is a 'typical' Democrat is silly.
I just find this type of logic from either side to be utterly boring.
And while everyone does it, some more than others, and yes, even me from time to time, the truly interesting comments here are ones that stand on their own - meaning that they are not easily swapped between who is presenting them. Meaning the argument is easily flipped depending on if your guy did something. And one would argue just the opposite if their guy did the same thing. Not stated eloquently, but you get my drift.
And by and large JO, I find your comments among the more interesting here. Not always right….but interesting none the less…… *grin*
4 June 2009
at 1:58 p.m.
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Navin_R_Johnson (Anonymous) says…
you know, i am personally opposed to shooting abortionists, BUT i really wouldn't want to impose my belief system on others.
btw, did you see that other 500 post thread of unbridled outrage over the muslim convert who shot those 2 Army recruiters, killing one, in Arkansas last monday?
…me neither.
4 June 2009
at 10:39 p.m.
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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…
“legally innocent”
*technically* *correct*
5 June 2009
at 3:34 a.m.
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roger_o_thornhill (Anonymous) says…
Beat that dead horse! Get in the last word! Woo Hoo! USA! USA!
5 June 2009
at 8 a.m.
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motocross (Anonymous) says…
Hey TEMP-
Do any of YOU actually read your WORD!?!?!
Hmmmm, my God says HIS Words rather clear.
5 June 2009
at 6:29 p.m.
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roger_o_thornhill (Anonymous) says…
Never say die!!! This thing just keeps going and going…like an Energizer Moron.
5 June 2009
at 6:29 p.m.
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roger_o_thornhill (Anonymous) says…
Never say die!!! This thing just keeps going and going…like an Energizer Moron…I mean Bunny.