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Archive for Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Quantrill-themed T-shirt stirs bitter emotion

November 14, 2007

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A photo of a yellow-and-black T-shirt has disgusted some Kansas University fans.

The shirt displays a picture of Lawrence burning in William Quantrill's Raid of 1863. Below the picture is the word "Scoreboard" and a University of Missouri logo.

"They burned the town. It's related to slavery and anti-slavery stuff around this town, and that's just not something I would really want attached to sports," said Emily Baucom, a KU senior from Lawrence.

Another KU senior said while KU fans have worn "Muck Fizzou" shirts, the "Scoreboard" shirt goes too far.

"(Muck Fizzou is) just more of a vulgar comment than a history of violent act. It's just something completely different," said Cory Abbott, a KU senior from Leavenworth.

The "Scoreboard" shirt comes ahead of the Nov. 24 football game at Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City, Mo., where the No. 3 Jayhawks will play the No. 5 Tigers. The winner likely will play in the Big 12 Championship game Dec. 1 in San Antonio.

An outside user posted a photo of the T-shirt on the message board Web site Tigerboard.com, and other blogs picked it up. The Web site is not affiliated with the University of Missouri and is owned by Nick Witthaus, a Missouri alumnus. Witthaus said he had not seen any actual T-shirts.

"I couldn't see a majority of Mizzou fans buying a shirt like that. We've got people with bad taste, too, but there's a line most of us even won't cross," Witthaus said.

Comments

southstlouissully 6 years, 5 months ago

It was a violent time and atrocities were committed on both sides. The funniest part of the story was Red-leg Jim Lane, hiding from the attack in his nightclothes by running into a cornfield. The brave dead guys... well... not so funny.

The movie Outlaw Josie Wales is a good starting point for learning a bit more about the Missouri Kansas border war. "3 years with Quantrill" by John McCorkle as told to a ghost writer is also excellent.

The "slavery" angle is just a way for Kansans to rationalize their behavior. The Jayhawk mascot IS historically offensive, but I would expect blind loyalty from those who still teach their children Adam and Eve.

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Bill_Quantrill 6 years, 5 months ago

Give it up, Saint... these brain dead, self-righteous hypocrites stick their heads in the sand and refuse to see the truth. Nothing will ever change. They've been taught lies basically because throughout all time, history books are written by those who win the wars. So therefore, the books must be correct, huh?

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TopekaBlade 6 years, 5 months ago

And amazingly, while Osceola is rightly mentioned, the first burning of Lawrence in 1856 is forgotten. But perhaps that is just as well. Having been out here for a quarter of a century, this discussion has often seemed to me as having taken on the character of the old playground argument, "He started it." "Did not. He did."

If you look for saints on either side of the Kansas - Missouri border between 1854 and 1865, good luck. They were in short supply.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

If those "impassioned people" were part of stomping out the slave trade that Missouri was so keen on, then rock chalk. Suck it up, and stop pining away for the lost cause. Its not like Missourians were innocent. They burned down a city, remember? There were innocent people here too, so the retaliation excuse doesn't hold water.

Uh, did you miss History class entirely? Did you miss the entire postings above? The Jayhawkers burned to the ground the city of Osceola, Missouri a year and a half before Lawrence was even touched. They looted pianos, silk dresses, money from the bank, and liquor. Then they traveled all the way up here to Independence and Kansas City to loot here too. And where did all that stolen stuff go? LAWRENCE, where it was sold to the highest bidder. Osceola itself was so damaged by the raid that only chimneys survived of the houses, and the courthouse was blown up by cannonballs. They weren't confederate soldiers, and it wasn't illegal to own slaves at that time either. So why did they sack the town? Today, the only reason why Osceola is on the map is because it's the county seat, and H. Roe Bartle Boy Scout Camp is nearby. And you know what, I'm not saying that retaliation as it came down was a good thing, but after a full year of the Redlegs and Jayhawk indescriminate raids throughout Missouri, wouldn't you have had enough? I mean seriously, all your wealth is going to Lawrence, Kansas, who by the way is also harboring the people that took it in the first place, wouldn't you be pissed? And then I know what you'll argue next, you'll say that it wasn't right to burn the city down. And then I'll say that we're talking about a different time when people challenged eachother to duels over the loss of pride, and the only people free from work were teenagers. The young kids and adults were working on the farms, the teenagers were forming their own lives and marrying at the age of 18. Since we all know that the male brain does not really fully develop until their early 20's, you've basically got a bunch of crazy 18-19 year old kids riding into Lawrence hell bent on revenge for all the true atrocities, as well as the ones that were not true but they didn't know. But the sad thing is that the burning of Lawrence, which was commited primarily by a motley crew of males under the age of 23, goes down in history as an evil act. While the Jayhawker looting raids into Missouri, which was committed under Kansas military jursidiction, is forgotten. And then 25 years later, the name Jayhawk is adopted for a team on a football field in Lawrence, Kansas.... But it's just a fictional bird....kinda like the Aryan Race.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

Given that Missouri's cause was the one that lost the Civil War, every state is a free state. Maybe you should check out migration patterns and figure out why ethnic distributions are the way they are.

That's true, sort of. Missouri was technically a Union state by law, but not everyone agreed. Northern Missouri leaned more towards the Union, while the South the Rebs. That's why Quantrill the James Family, and Bloody Bill had most of their raids in and around Kansas City. Now what I find really funny is that all this has to do with slavery. Not that slavery is a funny thing, but that the Jayhawkers "FREED" black slaves from Missouri. This is true and it only took what, 5-6 years to do? And then it only took another 100 years to integrate the schools in it's own state. Slavery is bad, but not giving them a fair education at the same time.... wow talk about about a high horse. And if I remember correctly, it wasn't until a very high profile Brown V. Board of Education U.S. Supreme Court Appeal did it ever happen. And what I find really funny is that Kansas would not be where it is today without Kansas City, Missouri. Think about it, Johnson and Wyandotte Counties foot more than their share of the bills for the entire state. Johnson County itself would not be what it is without the integration of the Kansas City Missouri School District having to integrate black and white students. So what happened? White Flight to Johnson County. People accuse Missouri of being pro-slavery by a freaking t-shirt? I think that by staying here rather than moving away because of the fears of race speaks more than anyone who lives in Johnson County or Lawrence, PERIOD.

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lovenhaight 6 years, 5 months ago

Carol,

No one was saying that there is a problem with being a southern white person. It isn't even the issue at hand. If you were a southern white person who wore a shirt championing the cause of slavery, you would then be a jerk. There is the difference.

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lovenhaight 6 years, 5 months ago

Pink_Sock...

Given that Missouri's cause was the one that lost the Civil War, every state is a free state. Maybe you should check out migration patterns and figure out why ethnic distributions are the way they are.

Saintliest...

"Mascots are believed to bring good luck, especially to athletic teams. KU is home of the Jayhawk, a mythical bird with a fascinating history. Its origin is rooted in the historic struggles of Kansas settlers. The term "Jayhawk" was probably coined about 1848. Accounts of its use appeared from Illinois to Texas. The name combines two birds - the blue jay, a noisy, quarrelsome thing known to rob other nests, and the sparrow hawk, a stealthy hunter. The message here: Do not turn your back on this bird. During the 1850s, the Kansas Territory was filled with such Jayhawks. The area was a battleground between those wanting a state where slavery would be legal and those committed to a Free State. The factions looted, sacked, rustled cattle, and otherwise attacked each other's settlements. For a time, ruffians on both sides were called Jayhawkers. But the name stuck to the free staters. Lawrence, where KU would be founded, was a Free State stronghold. During the Civil War, the Jayhawk's ruffian image gave way to patriotic symbol. Kansas Governor Charles Robinson raised a regiment called the Independent Mounted Kansas Jayhawks. By war's end, Jayhawks were synonymous with the impassioned people who made Kansas a Free State. "

If those "impassioned people" were part of stomping out the slave trade that Missouri was so keen on, then ROCK CHALK. Suck it up, and stop pining away for the lost cause. Its not like Missourians were innocent. They burned down a city, remember? There were innocent people here too, so the retaliation excuse doesn't hold water.

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MacHeath 6 years, 5 months ago

I still like my t-shirt idea.

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Pink_Sock 6 years, 5 months ago

If Kansas is such a "free state" then where are all the black people at?

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ChristmasCarol 6 years, 5 months ago

It sure is strange being from Astoria Oregon finding people that are so strung out on history.

Atlanta has a history as well. Why is it all of you obsess with History so much?

I was born in the south and I am "white" is there a problem with this?

School rivalries and historical bias. Being in Lawrence that is half all I hear about besides their Basketball team and where the best bars are.

You should read some Edgar Allen Poe

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Lulu 6 years, 5 months ago

Voilence begets violence. These shirts are tantamount to a hate crime. Round these rascist pigs up and arrest them for crimes against humanity! Why don't they wear swastikas instead? A game for an unfortunate winner and an unfortunate loser, when they are both winners! The losers support Quatrill and his slave trade rebels. Let Missouri pay more for reparations than the rest of us.

Vote for Hillary and make America good!

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

It's a freaking t-shirt for Christ's sake! Oh my god, you're saying a t-shirt is worse than an ENTIRE UNIVERSITY AND IT'S ALUMNUS adopting the name of JAYHAWKS! Tonight, let's change the name of the Kansas City Chiefs to the Kansas City Blackshirts. I wonder if anyone would ever think of making the connection with Mussolini's Black Shirts in the 1930's and 1940's that murdered and stole from God knows how many people... I'm sure a lot of Italians would, but I'm sure that a lot of Native Tribes around here would be just fine with the change.

Aunt Jemima's racist mammy connotations and the Jayhawks are not the same thing. Stop throwing around the new information you just gleaned from your intro level sociology and women's studies courses.

How are they not the same thing? They're both used for A: profit, B: whitewashing of history, and C: distortion of history. Just because YOU say that the Jayhawk Mascot has nothing to do with the historical use of the word is not exactly the best way to make your point.

The truth is that it IS based in history. Take the Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers, or the San Francisco 49ers, or the FSU Seminoles, or the St. Louis Blues, or the New Orleans Saints, or the Detroit Steelers, or the Missouri Central Mules, or the Iowa State Cyclones, or the Missouri Tigers, or the Kansas City Royals, or the Colorado Rockies, or the Chicago Bulls, or the Houston Astros, or the Florida Marlins, or the New York Yankees, or the Boston Celtics, or the Washington Nationals, or the Nebraska Cornhuskers, or the Green Bay Packers, or the Minnesota Twins, or the Milwaukee Brewers, or the New York Mets, or the Florida Gators, or the Miami Hurricanes, or the Hawaii Crabs.............. What do all of these teams have in common with the KU Jayhawks? Their past, Geography, or their manufacturing base.

Now comeon, keep arguing that the Jayhawk has nothing to do with Missouri Murder....I can name even more teams.

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Rationalanimal 6 years, 5 months ago

"tasteless" is the perfect word to describe the "Muck Fizzou" shirt. If we are indeed KU and Missouri is who they are, why do we need to cast that message as our persona. If we are who we think we are, we don't need anything on shirt other than KU or Kansas or the University of Kansas. Anything else merely descends to the level of the rival we attempt to defame. Missouri is merely one-uping us in the race to the bottom of who can be the most foul and tasteless. This is the one competiton KU should let Missouri win.

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lovenhaight 6 years, 5 months ago

Aunt Jemima's racist mammy connotations and the Jayhawks are NOT THE SAME THING. Stop throwing around the new information you just gleaned from your intro level sociology and women's studies courses.

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lovenhaight 6 years, 5 months ago

Ok, I'm going to say this one more time and hope that it gets through your thick skull. The "cause" that the quote refers to would be slavery. Deal with the fact that KU is, has, and always will be the Jayhawks, and that just because you don't like it doesn't make it the issue at hand. The issue is that the shirt that Mizzou fans have created is tasteless and depicts the destruction of a city. Your explanation and defense of your use of the word "retarded" just illustrates the point of every sane person on here. You are an absolute ignorant jackass and need to find something else to do.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

One last thing here guys, then I'll leave you K-Youers alone...

Just because the mascot is a so-called "fictitious bird" doesn't mean that it's not based in some sort of hatred. I can think of a really good example of that, which is roughly about the same time frame as the adoption of the Jayhawk for KU. Aunt Jemima anyone? Yeah, today we see her as a smiling grandmotherly woman because she's got the best pancake mix in the world. In reality the entire symbol of her is a huge racial stereotype dating back to the mid 1800's.

But does it all really matter? I mean it is all just Ancient History, right? I mean, Aunt Jemima can't really mean anything racial by todays standards, right? And a team named the Jayhawks can't really mean anything to a bunch of Missourians...can it? And a t-shirt doesn't really mean anything in comparison to where we are today, and where we've both been yesterday...can it? And saying that the KU Jayhawk has nothing whatsover to do with a Kansan Jayhawker 25 years after it was adopted as a mascot for a University Football team is actually a good thing....right?

I wonder what would happen if a University named their mascot the Grand Wizards today. He'll wear a white robe. Oh the robes don't mean anything about racism, they're just being "symbolic" of the Fictitious Ancient Merlin of King Arthurs Court! Oh yeah, he walked around in white robes, I read it in a book somewhere! I mean it has been more than 30 years since the KKK has had any real power....

I wonder what would happen...hmmmmmm

Also, I don't peruse the LJWORLD website at all. This is my first time here, I linked to it from my yahoo homepage because the name of the article started with Quantrill. It's so nice of you guys to make me feel welcome though, much aprec.

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Fudgepop 6 years, 5 months ago

If you want to know my opinion, and I am sure you don't.

(But I don't care because the nags among you that won't leave me alone)

Many of you are tasteless in your vulgar jokes and such and you seem to be absolutely steeped in your filth about the history of your town and could care less to pull your head out of your a@@ about the present and the things most of you do and support so open your eyes.

I live in Astoria Oregon but because of some of you I have to stay abreast of what happens in your town....

I have to hate myself because I am white and hail frome the south and hate history about it and am absolutely obsessed with it and how it consumes how I think of the present. I am only an informed member of society and have to react to everything I think is current to justify my existence... this is in essence what I get the gist of what almost the entire of your town is like. So for all I care you pretty much deserve it. Zoe what!!

Hey grow up!!!!!!

I have to hate the history of my town because of the traders that got massacred in 1868 so why don't you crack a book of Edgar Allen Poe's and learn something about something besides your inbred opinions of history and your bigot political correctness.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

Saints-You are super duper good at cutting and pasting! And obviously someone with a lot of time on their hands. Doesn't change the fact that some Missourians created a tasteless t-shirt celebrating the death of innocents. Which is like:um:the point here. Glad you are a Mizzou fan! Please stay on that side of the border.

Yeah, that may be true about the tasteless t-shirt. But naming a mascot of a Major University the same name as one that is well known to have robbed, pillaged, and raped more towns than the one depicted on the t-shirt? I think you need to check your deoderant.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

Saintliest, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't use "retarded" as a synonym for "stupid" or whatever you intended it to be. Perhaps a thesaurus (or just your common sense) would find better adjectives. Also, it would really help your argument if you chose not to insult other posters. I would've been more likely to read your postings if you then didn't call someone a "douche bag" for disagreeing with you. I realize you are being insulted right and left (which I would hope you would've been better prepared for considering you are posting on the Lawrence Journal World website), but taking the high road would've made you much more credible. Good luck in the future, and perhaps you can find a better use of your time than arguing with petty people on a website. Evidently you are a very intelligent person, but could find much better use for your talents, in my opinion. And history is very subjective (as one history major to another, you know this as well as I). Respect others in their views and hopefully they'll do the same. Even if you differ. Good luck, Jessica

I understand your concern for the word retarded. But I sometimes use it when I'm addressing people that act like they're mentally handicapped in some way. I once had a cousin that had Down's Syndrome, so I know what you mean. His name was David and he died when I was 12 or 13 years old. He would be 35 now I think, and if he could do anything he wanted, he would be driving school buses for a living.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

"Raise the black flag and ride hard, boys. Our cause is just and our enemies many."

I don't see anything implying slavery here. I can think of a black flag that has nothing to do with slavery at all, the old skull and crossbones called the Calico Jack? Pirates ring a bell? Also known as Raiders? Ding Ding? The cause is revenge, and the enemies are the Jayhawkers. That quote has nothing whatsoever to do with slavery at all.

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auturgy 6 years, 5 months ago

Saintliest, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't use "retarded" as a synonym for "stupid" or whatever you intended it to be. Perhaps a thesaurus (or just your common sense) would find better adjectives. Also, it would really help your argument if you chose not to insult other posters. I would've been more likely to read your postings if you then didn't call someone a "douche bag" for disagreeing with you. I realize you are being insulted right and left (which I would hope you would've been better prepared for considering you are posting on the Lawrence Journal World website), but taking the high road would've made you much more credible. Good luck in the future, and perhaps you can find a better use of your time than arguing with petty people on a website. Evidently you are a very intelligent person, but could find much better use for your talents, in my opinion. And history is very subjective (as one history major to another, you know this as well as I). Respect others in their views and hopefully they'll do the same. Even if you differ. Good luck, Jessica

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Mike Ford 6 years, 5 months ago

I love selective outrage. People can be outraged that a bunch of banjo-players sacked Lawrence and forget the tragedies that occured at Haskell not long after Quantrill's raid in the name of getting a road built through a cemetery. For this selective outrage, I hope the Missourians who squatted on Miami, Shawnee, Delaware, and Kickapoo lands to get here and ride around with the stars and bars as ignorant as they do rub salt in your historically selective memories so that you see what Native peoples have tolerated for three centuries...... geez.....

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JM Andy 6 years, 5 months ago

Saints--You are super duper good at cutting and pasting! And obviously someone with a lot of time on their hands. Doesn't change the fact that some Missourians created a tasteless t-shirt celebrating the death of innocents. Which is like...um...the point here. Glad you are a Mizzou fan! Please stay on that side of the border.

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lovenhaight 6 years, 5 months ago

Saintliest:

My issue is with your condescending attitude and the fact that you don't seem to comprehend that there is a world of difference between Hitler and the holocaust and Jayhawkers. Perhaps you are just excited because one of your professors just told the class that history is written by the victor and are now attempting to lord that information over people on a blog about a SHIRT, but you are completely missing the point here. I don't have to rehash the Civil War with you when the issue at hand is the fact that Missouri supporters are ill informed enough to create a shirt with a quote that directly supports slavery. "Raise the black flag and ride hard, boys. Our cause is just and our enemies many." The cause there, my friend, is slavery. Its not about school rivalry, its the fact that someone was SO ignorant that they would actually think that a shirt bearing this slogan is appropriate. It doesn't matter if you like the Jayhawk as a mascot, it isn't like its going to change, and its understood meaning is something totally different than what you are trying to make it. I don't equate your rantings with treason, nor do I consider contradicting KU to be a treasonous act. I'm not even from Kansas, my family lineage includes several Confederate veterans, and my hometown was burned to the ground during the Civil War as well. Ever heard of Jackson, Mississippi? Whatever side my connections are to, the fact is that celebrating the fact that your people destroyed a city at a FOOTBALL GAME is tasteless, and coupling that tasteless act with a quote that directly states alliance with the idea of slavery is absolutely idiotic. As are you.

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macon47 6 years, 5 months ago

sorry but muck fizzou is degrading and childish just like the new mu shirt, so what is the difference except we are whiners, and mu fans are bullies? Four football fans go rock climbing one afternoon, a Nebraska fan, an Oklahoma fan, a Kansas fan, and a Mizzou fan. They had been arguing all the way up the mountain about who among them was the most die-hard fan.

Upon reaching the top of the mountain, the Nebraska fan proclaimed to the other three, 'THIS IS FOR THE HUSKERS!' and promptly threw himself off the mountain as a form of sacrifice, screaming 'GO BIG RED!' as he fell to his death.

Not to be outdone, the Oklahoma fan jumped up and shouted, 'THIS IS FOR THE SOONERS!' and threw himself off the mountain.

Refusing to be outdone by the Nebraska and Oklahoma fans, the Mizzou fan rose to his feet and yelled at the top of his lungs, 'THIS IS FOR THE MISSOURI TIGERS!' and without hesitation pushed the Kansas fan off the mountain shouting, 'FLY JAYHAWK FLY!!!

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

http://www.civilwarstlouis.com/History2/casteljayhawking.htm

The climax of Lane's march occurred at Osceola on SeptemÂ-ber 23. After exchanging a few shots with some Confederates on the outskirts, his men entered the town and proceeded to ransack it. They robbed the bank, pillaged stores and private houses, and looted the courthouse. Captain Thomas Moonlight bombarded this last building with a cannon, and others set fire to the town, almost totally destroying it. Many of the Kansans got so drunk that when it came time to leave they were unable to march and had to ride in wagons and carriages.[13] They carried off with them a tremendous load of plunder, including as Lane's personal share a piano and a quantity of silk dresses.[14] The "Sack of Osceola" henceforth was a prime cause of bitter hatred of Lane and Kansans by the people of West Missouri.

The majority of Kansans tended to classify all Missourians, at least those living in the border counties, as rebels. This viewpoint ran counter to the facts and largely reflected prejudice, ignorance, and a desire to rationalize the depredations in Missouri. Probably from one-third to over one-half of the people residing in western Missouri were loyal to the Union or at least neutral in 1861.[43] One of the main results of the raids of Lane and Anthony was to turn many of these Unionists and neutralists into Confederates. By the end of 1861 Major General Henry W. Halleck, then in command of all Union armies west of the Mississippi, expressed the opinion that a few more such raids would make Missouri "as Confederate as Eastern Virginia."[44]

Another serious consequence of the jayhawking incursions was that they transformed the already existent animosity of the people of western Missouri toward Kansas into an embittered and impasÂ-sioned hatred. This feeling was not confined to pro-Confederate Missourians, but it also affected pro-Unionists. On at least one occasion Missouri State Militia in Federal service warned that they would fire on Kansas soldiers if they did not stay on their side of the line.[45] By the spring of 1862 the situation along the border was so tense that Brigadier General John M. Schofield, commander of the Department of Missouri, feared "open hostility between the Union troops of Kansas and Missouri."[46]

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tell_it_like_it_is 6 years, 5 months ago

Amen Saintliest. Lawrence: Get over yourselves!! The Civil War was not fought because of slavery-it was fought the same reason as most wars-Money. Mr. Lincoln didn't give two hoots about slavery. It all boiled down to money. And Lawrence was burned in retaliation for innocent people being terrorized and killed in Missouri and the eastern and southeastern part of Kansas. No wonder most of the rest of Kansas wishes Lawrence would secede from the state. I hope MU whips your little sissy butts!!!!

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

Hey, history major. The "Northern Army" in the Civil War wasn't referred to as the "Northern Army". It was the Union Army, because the South seceded and created the Confederate States of America. So, you are what, a Freshman who has had 2 classes in History? Or are you even still in college, considering that you seem to enjoy perusing the LJWorld:

Yes, that is true that the "Northern Army" was called the Union Army. But when you address people that may not know too much about the Civil War, the terms NORTHERN ARMY and SOUTHERN ARMY are often used to try and discern the two. PLUS, it wasn't just the UNION army that won the war, it was in a small part due to guerilla units like the Jayhawkers, and the volunteers from Canada...who I doubt we would want to call part of the UNION as described by you as being part of the United States.

Comparing Jayhawks to the Hitler Youth is a bit much, and your comment about teaching children about historical whitewashing is off as well. Do you even remember that you are defending a shirt that is championing the cause of slavery? Having a kid wear a shirt talking about the just cause of slavery isn't exactly a testament to Missouri's enlightenment, now is it?

Why is it a bit much? Had Hitler won the war, a lot of what we now think of as wrong would quite possibly not be. Take the entire war against the Native Americans that we are JUST NOW beginning to admit was wrong. And it is Historical Whitewashing. You think that a Jayhawker or a Bushwacker were really any different? "Bloody" Bill Anderson and William Quantrill go down in history as being bloodthirsty and vicious, but Lane and Jennison's actions in Osceola, MO are completely wiped off the map...just like Osceola practically was after they were done. Had they lost, maybe instead of MU having the Tiger as a mascot from defending off "Bloody" Bill during the Civil War, they'd have made up something to commemorate his sacrifice for the lives of his fellow Missourians from those evil evil Jayhawkers. Either way, that there would be a mascot that is based upon the name of killing innocent people over whether you THINK they are pro-slavery isn't exactly a good idea. And to deny the fact that it's true...that's an even worse idea. Besides that, the Lawrence Raid was not based so much on slavery than it was on Lane and Jennison's actions against innocent Missouri farmers and their families.

Congratulations on the use of the word denigrated, I'm sure that it took you a while to look it up.

Congratulations on being a douche bag for thinking that contradicting KU is treason.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

And I'm sorry, but Muck Fizzou isn't that offensive. Making fun of the slaughter of most of the male residents of Lawrence is offensive. And no matter what, Quantrill's raiders were pro-slavery. The quote on the back of that shirt is extremely offensive, but we have to remind ourselves that plenty of ignorant rednecks in MO still drive around with confederate flags on their trucks. Rascism is still strong, but it's so sad it's become a part of a college football game.

You do know why the raid on Lawrence was made right? It's because of the numerous raids by Jayhawkers that killed many innocent Missourians, and their women, and burned their homes to the ground. They were also blamed for the collapse of a jail in Kansas City that killed relatives of Missouri Bushwackers. Whether true or not it doesn't matter. What does matter is that that is why Quantrill went on the raid; with a lot of young teenage boys that were pissed about not having a father anymore, and about riding into the same town where a lot of their stolen heirlooms were sold during the Redlegs/Jayhawker raids. Now violence does tend to beget violence, I will admit that it all started with the slavery vote years before. But Quantrill didn't come around until after he witnessed the Jayhawker carnage. But the sad thing is that everyone is demonizing the t-shirt for the raid, when the raid itself was in response to the burning of Osceola, MO by Jayhawkers Lane and Jennison. And the fact that everyone is denying the relationship between a KU Jayhawk based in Lawrence and a Kansas Jayhawker based in Lawrence that killed people THOUGHT to be pro slavery in Missouri....well that's just retarded.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

To the Saint that is supposedly a history major - I wouldn't claim that if I were you because you have a lot of learning to do. You didn't specify what your exact major was, but I doubt it's history of the US or civil war.

Missouri History, yes.

Jayhawkers were from many states and the name has had many definitions over the years. The KU mascot has nothing to do with the redleggers of the civil war. Get over that b.s. If mr. history major would have gone to KU's site, he would have seen that the old mascots didn't have red legs, they were yellow. And to quote the site:

Yes, Jayhawkers were from many states, just like outlaws in the 19th century as well. But where we attach these places in our head is the point. Outlaws in the 19th century...we think Wild West. Quite like the Nazis. We automatically first think of WWII and the Holocaust, even though they are still around today.

But what's funny is that often times in real life, if it looks like a duck and quacks like one.... I find it not quite so coincidental that nowhere in today's society do we really associate a Jayhawk unless it has anything to do with KU or the Civil War. And even more not so coincidental, the Jayhawkers in the 1850's and 1860's during the border war were based in LAWRENCE, KANSAS. QUACK QUACK QUACK.

And yes, I did go to KU's site, as you so obviously didn't see you freaking moron. And like I pointed out earlier, the whole leg is yellow, but in the 1920's and 1930's, there were red markings on the leg and prior to that it was all over the shoe. It has since dropped to just being the shoe buckle.

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classclown 6 years, 5 months ago

The bird makes me think of Heckle and Jeckle.

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JM Andy 6 years, 5 months ago

The shirt is tasteless and tacky. It's about a horrific mass murder. That ain't funny nor cute, regardless of the school or state it supports. I'm no fan of the MUCK one, either, but they are not comparable.

Saint--you are loopy and reaching for straws. A redstripe on the leg in 1923 means....?!?!? Wow. Take your meds.

Thanks kmat for setting things straight.

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kneejerkreaction 6 years, 5 months ago

C'mon you sanctimonious KUers, get over it. And don't give me that "pro slavery" crap is what the t-shirt is all about. Grow up you babies. Kansas was a free state for reasons that are far from any moral convictions damning slavery.

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lovenhaight 6 years, 5 months ago

Hey, history major. The "Northern Army" in the Civil War wasn't referred to as the "Northern Army". It was the Union Army, because the South seceded and created the Confederate States of America. So, you are what, a Freshman who has had 2 classes in History? Or are you even still in college, considering that you seem to enjoy perusing the LJWorld...

Comparing Jayhawks to the Hitler Youth is a bit much, and your comment about teaching children about historical whitewashing is off as well. Do you even remember that you are defending a shirt that is championing the cause of slavery? Having a kid wear a shirt talking about the just cause of slavery isn't exactly a testament to Missouri's enlightenment, now is it?

Congratulations on the use of the word denigrated, I'm sure that it took you a while to look it up.

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JJHawq 6 years, 5 months ago

It's pretty clever - Now I know that is in-sensitive to the people here who apparantly witnessed the burning of Lawrence - but that is a funny shirt....

I like this one as a response.

http://www.jayhawkertees.com/

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kmat 6 years, 5 months ago

http://www.historynet.com/magazines/american_civil_war/3031171.html

If anyone would like to really learn about the history, get off Wiki (it kills me that anyone considers anything on there fact) and visit this article which is really good and true.

To the Saint that is supposedly a history major - I wouldn't claim that if I were you because you have a lot of learning to do. You didn't specify what your exact major was, but I doubt it's history of the US or civil war.

Jayhawkers were from many states and the name has had many definitions over the years. The KU mascot has nothing to do with the redleggers of the civil war. Get over that b.s. If mr. history major would have gone to KU's site, he would have seen that the old mascots didn't have red legs, they were yellow. And to quote the site:

"During the Civil War, the Jayhawk's ruffian image gave way to patriotic symbol. Kansas Governor Charles Robinson raised a regiment called the Independent Mounted Kansas Jayhawks. By war's end, Jayhawks were synonymous with the impassioned people who made Kansas a Free State. In 1886, the bird appeared in a cheer--the famous Rock Chalk chant. When KU football players first took the field in 1890, it seemed only natural to call them Jayhawkers. How do you draw a Jayhawk? For years, that question stumped fans. Henry Maloy, a cartoonist for the student newspaper, drew a memorable version of the 'hawk in 1912. He gave it shoes. Why? For kicking opponents, of course. " http://www.ku.edu/about/traditions/jayhawk.shtml

And I'm sorry, but Muck Fizzou isn't that offensive. Making fun of the slaughter of most of the male residents of Lawrence is offensive. And no matter what, Quantrill's raiders were pro-slavery. The quote on the back of that shirt is extremely offensive, but we have to remind ourselves that plenty of ignorant rednecks in MO still drive around with confederate flags on their trucks. Rascism is still strong, but it's so sad it's become a part of a college football game.

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mom_of_three 6 years, 5 months ago

"jayhawkers" were actually from Kansas and Missouri. Anyone who crossed over the state line to steal and cause trouble. Not just for Kansas. Later on, it became a nickname for several companies during the Civil War, which is why it's more related to Kansas.

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gogoplata 6 years, 5 months ago

I just watched that video again and now I'm irritated that this game is going to be at Arrowhead now. I don't have tickets but if it was in Lawrence I'd go sit on the hill just to be a part of it all.

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gogoplata 6 years, 5 months ago

We're from Kansas. Jayhawkers, and proud of it.

Lets hope for another day like this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x2CuE...

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

Oh, and about making a case that the burning of Lawrence was "distasteful":destroying a town is seen as a negative thing in most circles. "Distasteful" is a gross understatement. Also, they were called the Jayhawkers, not the Jawhawkers. If you are trying to sound holier-than-thou it helps if you spell things correctly.

My bad, I'm used to typing JAW instead of JAY. When you type can type a word every second, you're bound to make mistakes somewhere. Boy I feel really denigrated here, someone have a shoulder I can cry on?

What's great about being a history major is that your expertise is looking back and seeing how historical events shaped our present. So yeah, praising the burning of a town on a t-shirt is probably a bad thing. But in the paragraph above the one you criticized me for, you stated that ""Muck Fizzou" isn't something that you really want to explain to children." Another thing you might not want to explain to children is how a mascot got its name from the same period after a bit of "Historical Whitewashing". Yeah sure there was a lot of pride in being called a Jayhawker prior to the University adopting it as a mascot, but there was also a lot of pride in being called a Hitler Youth at one time too. Had Germany won the war, like the Northern Army of the Civil War, maybe things would be opposite?

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Pilgrim 6 years, 5 months ago

Missouri: 6 million people, five last names.

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local_support 6 years, 5 months ago

Can't wait to bust out my Muck Fizzou shirt for the game. Haven't worn it in years and this will be the last time I do.

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gogoplata 6 years, 5 months ago

Are the Jayhawks wearing the red legs for that game? We probably should not be so self righteous on this one. The stuff I've read doesn't paint Jayhawkers in a favorable light. Have you ever seen the Outlaw Josey Whales?

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Smarmy_Schoolmarm 6 years, 5 months ago

thanksforcoming says: You can't remove people from a place for a T-shirt. It would violate freedom of speech and expression, no matter how tastless it is.

Unfortunately it did happen. Remember this? http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/31/sheehan.arrest/

I wonder if Lowe's knows they're supporting a site that promotes that incredibly hateful t-shirt.

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bobberboy 6 years, 5 months ago

Why anyone would want to look like a bunch of losers is not new. One thing though we'll have God on our side - slave lovin' redneck scumbag rebels aren't givin any preferences.

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Mr_Ramirez 6 years, 5 months ago

75x55 (Anonymous) says: point proven.


Yes, i agree.
Its called: Jealousy Now go back to your C-span and video games.

"Here's to you Mr. I hate sports guy. Youve been bullied by jocks your whole life, Now get back at them by posting on the internet.... background vocals I was always the last one picked!!*....Real men of geniusssssssss...."

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lovenhaight 6 years, 5 months ago

I agree that the Muck Fizzou shirt is inappropriate, but in an altogether different way. "Muck Fizzou" isn't something that you really want to explain to children. The Scoreboard shirt is offensive in a totally different way. The "just cause" that it refers to is the enslavement of other human beings, and that in and of itself puts it in a whole other league than switching around the first letters of some dirty words.

Oh, and about making a case that the burning of Lawrence was "distasteful"...destroying a town is seen as a negative thing in most circles. "Distasteful" is a gross understatement. Also, they were called the Jayhawkers, not the Jawhawkers. If you are trying to sound holier-than-thou it helps if you spell things correctly.

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laughingatallofu 6 years, 5 months ago

The "border war" theme has been used and promoted for years by both sides. Tasteless then and now but freedom to expression yourself stupidly is more important then all this pc, thought police crap. <<<

True enough. The "border war" has been taken advantage of by both sides.

But go ahead and wear a tasteless t-shirt to the KU-MU game and if you get razzed, beaten up or ejected from the game for being a stupid jacka$s for wearing aforementioned attire---no sympathy from me. PC and thought police may be crap, and freedom of expression may be noble, but tell that to the guy who's standing behind you at the urinal in the rest room at Arrowhead Stadium and doesn't like your "freedom to express yourself". Go ahead and try to sue him for a civil liberties violation---and win. But, alas, it's your money, not mine.

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logicsound04 6 years, 5 months ago

"Not only that, but to have the original mascot wear red leggings, just like the Redlegs did during the civil unrest. And where are the red leggings on the mascot now? The shoes."


Are they now?

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/kan/graphics/jayhawk-rowing300.gif

Hmmmmmm...are you referring to the buckles on the shoes? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Also, more about the bird:

[Kansas is the home of the Jayhawk, a mythical bird said to fly backwards because it doesn't give a damn where it's going - it only cares where it's been. The name became well known around 1850, after Illinois gold-rushers in Death Valley dubbed themselves "the Jayhawkers."

The Jayhawk combines the attributes of two birds: the blue jay, a noisy, quarrelsome creature known to rob other nests; and the "sparrow hawk', a stealthy hunter - the latter is not actually a sparrow hawk but is the American Kestrel. In any case, be careful: do not turn your back]--David Arthur Walters

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

Yes, the shoes are yellow, but not the spot near the laces.

http://www.ku.edu/about/traditions/jayhawk.shtml

If you look at the link, you'll see that the first picture has blue shoes with red highlights. The third and fourth incarnations both have the red on the legs, right where a Redlegs rider would wear it. I'll admit that it's not covering the full leg, but on the other hand I have been chastized for 'supposedly' not doing emperical research...so I wonder why the University would let red even be anywhere on the legs, considering Kansas History. Now we can argue all we want about why the Jayhawk name was chosen and how it came to represent a so-called "Patriotic Honor" to be called one. But remember that many families on the Missouri side who fought in the war, and lost members that fought in the war, were still alive in the 1890's when it all started. Naming a team after something that effected the lives of those people so greatly was like a slap in the face.

Besides, the University of Kansas first held classes in 1866, about 18 months after the close of the Civil War. Such a deep seeded history such as the bloodshed over the previous 15 years, I would think that the University itself would want to distance itself from ANYTHING having to do with how many people lives were effected in a negative way. Not to mention the fact that the founding of KU as a whole was constantly being pushed back because of it all.

Now I'm not saying that I hate the Jayhawk, I'm pretty sure that we've moved past all of that crap. But what I am saying is that sometimes the neighbors house is just as ugly as yours, but you don't see it because you never look at it from outside your perspective.

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ksharddem 6 years, 5 months ago

Excuse me Saintliest, while I think you made a valiant effort and I am not trying to pick a fight but if you are history major it makes me weep for the MU department. The mythical bird that is the Jayhawk was around before the name was given to the raiders from Kansas. Second our Jayhawk mascot has yellow shoes not red. And the color red on our mascot is more related to the fact that we take our colors (crimson and blue) from Harvard and Yale. Not from a Civil War group. While I would never expect a student from another school to know about our school. I would expect a history major to learn how to research before publishing something.

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jumpin_catfish 6 years, 5 months ago

The "border war" theme has been used and promoted for years by both sides. Tasteless then and now but freedom to expression yourself stupidly is more important then all this pc, thought police crap.

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ksharddem 6 years, 5 months ago

I am no different than the next Jayhawk fan, I love to play (and beat) MU. Having stated this, I totally disagree with either shirt. I believe "Muck Fizzou" to be just as rude and inappropriate as this "Scoreboard" shirt?" The MU shirt to me is more offensive because I am from Lawrence and been a Hawk fan for 31 years. I still have the ticket stub from the first game I ever saw in Memorial Stadium against Nebraska. But I am willing to bet that the "Muck" shirt is just as offense to a person born and raised in Columbia. This is a school rivalry not a war. This sports competition continues to get lost in something totally unrelated. How many of you really hate the State of Missouri? If Gary Pinkel was stranded in a snow storm and needed your help how many of you would drive by because he is the coach at MU? I love the Jayhawks and love watching my children grow into future hawk fans, but how can I teach them how to be a good sport if I state the one shirt is OK because it is just words but the other is not because of an action. Does that mean that they can walk around and say things like this to their teacher, priest, mother and I can take no action because it is just words??? I guess so as long as they don't hit anyone.
Stop pointing the finger Lawrence, we have our jackass' too.

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Saintliest 6 years, 5 months ago

As a Missouri History Major, I find this discussion quite interesting. What I really think is ironic is that the Jayhawk mascot is not included in the debate. Ok, Missouri Ruffians aside, it is true that some of the reasons why the James Family fought in Kansas during the Civil War was because they were terrorized by Redlegs and Jawhawkers. So much so, that when the brothers were young, they were forced at to guard their homes at night, carrying shotguns and rifles that they we barely strong enough to hold, much less aim.

Now you can make an argument that the entire burning of Lawrence is distasteful, wrong, and morally corrupt. But I can make the same argument for a mascot masquerading as a fake bird, who uses the name representing border crossing Kansans that raped, pillaged and murdered. Not only that, but to have the original mascot wear red leggings, just like the Redlegs did during the civil unrest. And where are the red leggings on the mascot now? The shoes.

I dunno, maybe 'The Outlaw Josey Wales' is never played in Kansas...but it would give you some insight as to what innocent Missourians went through at the same time.

Some may say I'm just overexagerating here, but just imagine for a moment the uproar a team would have if their mascot was say...A Templar Knight, one that fought for Christianity in the name of God and Freedom! But on the flipside, those that observe the faith of Islam would have a field day with it.

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youngitized 6 years, 5 months ago

It appears to me that Misery still can't get over the issue that was decided over 140 years ago. Same old thing from these ridiculous fans, classless and rude. They can't get over the past.

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Mr_Ramirez 6 years, 5 months ago

"Sports fans - the last bastion of childishness."

Did some jocks stuff you in a locker back in HS?
Let it go, nerd..........

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logicsound04 6 years, 5 months ago

"You can't remove people from a place for a T-shirt. It would violate freedom of speech and expression, no matter how tastless it is."


Actually you can. When you purchase a ticket to a entertainment event, you are signing a contract to abide by the rules and regulations of the arena in question. That includes speech and conduct.

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75x55 6 years, 5 months ago

Well, I must say that the designer of said t-shirt has been a great success in it's intent - scratching the thin, weak skins of the opposing sides fans.

Sports fans - the last bastion of childishness.

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laughingatallofu 6 years, 5 months ago

Jackie,

In case you haven't noticed, words often lead to other things (like fist-fights, homicides or little spats known as wars). On this forum, they also lead to "ad hominem" attacks on posters who point out the ignorance of others.

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jackie 6 years, 5 months ago

The Unions? What a joke. Please have a simple grasp on the subject matter before you post about the history of Kansas.

Muck Fizzou is nothing more than words. Celebrating the massacre of human beings is much more vile. Especially celebrating those who killed in the name of slavery. To accompany your cliches, "ignorance is bliss."

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laughingatallofu 6 years, 5 months ago

Don't know what all the fuss is about. the "Muck Fizzou" t-shirts are just as tasteless. Demonstrates poor sportsmanship. I guess "what goes around, comes around" and "you reap what you sow".

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mom_of_three 6 years, 5 months ago

I don't quite understand what you are saying, but hundreds of people came to Lawrence to promote Kansas as a free state through abolition societies and many settled in Lawrence and the Lawrence area.
There were people who came to Kansas to find jobs, but were not against slavery, but hated slaves because of the job situation. In fact, Brown killed 5 of those people in Pottawatomie. The closer you went to Missouri, the more likely you were to find pro-slavery sympathizers.

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Dollypawpaw 6 years, 5 months ago

Labor found a helpful ally in the sympathizers. But, the driving force was the job issues.

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mom_of_three 6 years, 5 months ago

Dolly, you are only partially correct. Some people were in Kansas because they didn't want slavery to take their jobs away, but were still considered pro-slavery. But a vast number of people in Kansas, particularly in Lawrence, were anti-slavery, because it was wrong.
History lesson over.....

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thanksforcoming 6 years, 5 months ago

Does it matter why they weren't a slave state? The fact is they voted to not own other people and they fought on the side of the Union which ultimatley, whether or not it was the Union's opurpose at the beginning of the war, freed the slaves.

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Mr_Ramirez 6 years, 5 months ago

Nothing surprises me from these Misery losers.........typical.

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compmd 6 years, 5 months ago

thanksforcoming, perhaps you do not remember the incident in Columbia where a KU student was kicked out of the basketball stadium. Why? Because he had a banner that the chief of university police disliked. When the student was kicked out, he purchased another ticket and reentered. Upon reentry, this police chief proceeded to arrest the student.

I certainly believe the same scenario could occur with a tshirt instead of a banner. Should it? No, it should not.

Hmm...this discussion just made me think of a fun new tshirt: "God Hates Tigers."

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Dollypawpaw 6 years, 5 months ago

Kansas wasn't a slave state because unions didn't want the slaves taking their jobs.

Get over your righteous horse crap.

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consumer1 6 years, 5 months ago

I think it would be cool to have a t shirt showing three mizzouri Ruffians being hanged with the words under it saying. "Justice will be served". and if this offends your delicate senses. then, "chuck you farley" !

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thanksforcoming 6 years, 5 months ago

You can't remove people from a place for a T-shirt. It would violate freedom of speech and expression, no matter how tastless it is. The Phelps's in Topeka are just as tastless and nothing ever happens to them because of the same laws. History shows us that their shirts are pointless. Scoreboard?? Seriously, didn't the north win the Civil War? Their shirt makes no sense. They one one little battle but lost the war. They will win certain little individual battles on Saturday in Arrowhead, but history shows us, they will lose the wore. Let them wear their ignorant T-shirts. It shows how clueless they are.

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Reality_Check 6 years, 5 months ago

150 years of being white trash scumbags. Some things never change.

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wysiwyg69 6 years, 5 months ago

maybe the police inside of the stadium could remove from the stadium any fan either side of the issue wearing shirts of this nature or give the person a chance to remove it and confiscate it

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PeteJayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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geekin_topekan 6 years, 5 months ago

I wonder if they would wear a tshirt that depicted the Trade Center burning if they played in New York?Pretty tasteless.And I rarley give a S**t about such things.

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MacHeath 6 years, 5 months ago

well, we could wear John Brown t-shirts with 'We shoud have killed more of em when we had the chance" on the back

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