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Archive for Tuesday, July 18, 2006

Conflict in Middle East reverberates in Lawrence

Residents pray for peaceful end to hostilities

July 18, 2006

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Lawrence resident Rabbi Zalman Tiechtel is paying close attention to news from Israel. His parents are there.

"My father is Israeli. Every summer, he goes there to visit his parents," said Tiechtel, who, along with his wife, Nechama Dina Tiechtel, opened the Chabad Jewish Center at Kansas University.

"A rocket went off 1,000 feet from where my father and mother were sleeping," Tiechtel said Monday.

The Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah has been firing rockets at northern Israel since last Wednesday and has kidnapped two Israeli soldiers during cross-border fighting. The provocations resulted in a fierce retaliation by Israel, and both sides have carried out daily bombings since then.

Tiechtel's father recalled the attack early Thursday morning near the Israel-Lebanon border - as well as a second encounter farther south - in an e-mail, which Tiechtel shared with the Journal-World.

"I have two kinds of reaction," Zalman Tiechtel said. "Emotionally, it's very hard to carry on with day-to-day activities, knowing this is happening. I feel that every person in Israel is my brother or sister. It is very disturbing that they cannot live in peace.

"My other reaction, on a more practical level, has been to get together a number of people to pray and commit extra acts of goodness and kindness," he said. "That is the way we can help a person on the other side of the world."

Fear in Israel

Both Tiechtel and his father insisted Israel has no choice but to defend itself.

"Americans, today, have no idea the fear that Israel is living in," said Tiechtel, who is posting responses to the conflict on the Chabad Jewish Center's Web site, www.jewishku. com.A friend of Tiechtel's, Rivkie Kaplan, a 30-year-old teacher and mother of five, was in Israel when the rockets struck.

"I heard a tremendous noise and glass shattering. I gathered my children," Kaplan said. "What I didn't know was that a rocket went off a meter away from the minivan my husband was driving. The minivan was destroyed; it is amazing he survived."

Since the family fled southward, she said she hadn't slept for several days.

"Every time I hear a noise, my heart stops," said Kaplan, a New Jersey native.

Kaplan said she has grown weary of the debate over Israel's reaction to the attacks.

"Israel needs to be more concerned now about the security of its people and not so much concerned about world opinion," she said.

Professors' reaction

Phil Schrodt, too, is keeping close tabs on the conflict.

"What really worries me is how rapidly this has escalated," said Schrodt, a political science professor at Kansas University who's studied the Middle East.

"This thing starts out with a small group of guys in Gaza attacking an Israeli army base, and here we are - in a span of two or three weeks - dealing with a full-scale missile war between Israel and Lebanon that could escalate to Iran, easily."

Schrodt dismissed the often-heard notion that Lebanon or Syria should somehow rein in Hezbollah.

"That's nonsense," he said. "If it was that easy, it would have been done a long time ago."

Middle East-watchers, he said, have been surprised by the depth and breadth of the Hezbollah attacks.

"They are very strong, very popular, very well-organized," Schrodt said, "and, obviously, very well-armed."

Israel, he said, suspects Iran of supplying Hezbollah, which raises another worry: "What everybody fears is what happens if Israel attacks Iran directly with long-range aircraft. That means flying over Iraq - well, who controls Iraqi air space? Like it or not, that's our backyard now.

"If Iran then retaliates with a long-range missile on Tel Aviv - which they have the capability to do - those missiles will be going right over our troops' heads."

Paul D'Anieri, a colleague of Schrodt's at KU, said he expects the situation to worsen.

"Israel's policy has been that when Hezbollah attacks from Lebanon, it attacks Lebanon - the logic being that Lebanon will then put pressure on Hezbollah," he said. "That seems like it would make sense, but it's actually causing so much resentment among the Lebanese, it's had the effect of strengthening Hezbollah."

The violence, he said, tends to silence the region's moderates.

"When Hezbollah does its thing, it empowers the radical right in Israel," D'Anieri said. "And when Israel reacts, it empowers the most radical of the Hezbollah. The moderates lose out."

Comments

audvisartist 8 years, 5 months ago

This whole situation just pisses me off! Is fighting / killing really the only response to every little situation that happens in that part of the world? Seems to me that in this day and age there'd be better options than beating each other senseless. More level headed people, on both sides of the equation, just need to assert themselves and take control. Although for some reason I just don't see that happening, as the extremists on both sides would probably just wind up killing those that want to use other measures besides force to take care of problems. And the saga continues...

ASBESTOS 8 years, 5 months ago

"That seems like it would make sense, but it's actually causing so much resentment among the Lebanese, it's had the effect of strengthening Hezbollah."

Actually that is NOT happening. THe Lebanese are as upset with Hezbollah as it is with Isreal. THese professors don't know very much for devoting so much time to study.

"When Hezbollah does its thing, it empowers the radical right in Israel," D'Anieri said. "And when Israel reacts, it empowers the most radical of the Hezbollah. The moderates lose out."

Oversimplification. Isreal has had restraint for a long time with Hezbollah. When Isreal occupied souther Lebanon they did not have rockets coming into their country, THAT was why they occupied these lands.

This is a UN problem. This is what we (the world) has to pay for because UN res. 1559 and 1641 was not implemented REQUIRING Hezbollah to DISARM. What are they doing with 12,000 missiles??

Addtionally the UN pays the refugees in this area from Palestine 5 TIMES what they pay any other refugee in the world.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

Schrodt dismissed the often-heard notion that Lebanon or Syria should somehow rein in Hezbollah.

"That's nonsense," he said. "If it was that easy, it would have been done a long time ago."

Head in the sand world policy.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

Even if the conflict subsides, both sides will have raised a generation of PTSD kids. The suffering will continue long after the conflict is resolved. As IF the conflict ever WILL be resolved.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 5 months ago

Schrodt has it exactly right. Violence begets violence.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

And when you turn the other cheek, sometimes we all need to realize that it will get smacked as well.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

and as usual bible boy dispenses his deep biblical wisdom

so Jesus said that right? "And when you turn the other cheek, sometimes we all need to realize that it will get smacked as well."

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword...

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

And once again moose says nothing but takes four lines to do it. Thanks moose. You can't always turn from violence when it is upon you. That is a fact of life and I was simply stating that. By the way where is your wisdom moose? Thanks for the title though, I enjoy it.

Centrist 8 years, 5 months ago

It would have been nice if this article wasn't so biased towards Israel ... terrible journalism. Did they even talk to an Arab?

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Also, please don't forget that Jews doctrine comes from the Old Testament. Remember the old testament? When they went to war, they destroyed everything and everyone. Keep that in mind while you watch Israel fight.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 5 months ago

Unfortunately, too many people believe like 75 x 55-- anything that didn't involve the mass murder by Israel of hundreds of innocent civilans in retaliation for Hezbollah's attack would be nothing more than "passivity."

The new world religion is the faith in violence and force to solve all problems, and its primary adherents are Christian, Jew and Muslim.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

hey yer welcome - and thanks for responding with the love of Jesus you hypocrite. I'm glad I dont have to fake my way through life like you. Must be exhausting.

concerned_citizen 8 years, 5 months ago

I wonder how the Rabbi feels about the "Carnival Against Capitalism" flying the PLO flag downtown yesterday (on space generously lent to them by US Bank).

Wilbur_Nether 8 years, 5 months ago

You're wrong, craigers. You can turn from violence when it is upon you. It is a choice you make. Respond in kind or refuse to be violent yourself. The choice is rooted deeply in values affected by religious beliefs, moral attitudes, societal context, and depth of personal convictions--among other things.

When choosing between the options of violence and non-violence, one must be willing to live with the consequences. And each choice will have consequences.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

well the right wing version of Jesus would certainly condone all that. I'm sure he would do the torturing himself as long as it was for the cause of God and good!! It's amazing how these religous nuts assume god is on board with their causes. We have people fighting people and both sides are convinced that god is on their side.

pathethic... we need to evolve out the dark ages people!!

monkeywrench1969 8 years, 5 months ago

ONe of the things we forget living in the US is we can actually sit down and talk problems out...for the most part.

As much as we want to fool ourselves, there will always be someone out there who will try to take something by force and violence. They do not respect anything but strength and like force in response otherwise they will keep taking and taking and taking.

YOu have to understand Isreal is the only Jewish state surrounded by 20+ arab countries. They have been dealing with suicide bombings and rocket attacks for over 40 years. They can't go oh well and turn the other cheek.

The other thing is the EUropean governments who set up this little middle east map after WWII need to get more involved in stopping the groups jacking with Israel. You can liken it to giving a person a million dollars and sticking them in a high crime area without a set of wheels and a map on how to get out of danger.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"Remember the old testament? When they went to war, they destroyed everything and everyone. Keep that in mind while you watch Israel fight."

The Biblical Israel also LOST many battles. They destroyed everything and won lopsided battles when they fought according to God's direct command to fight, when they fought with His might and authority. Do not confuse the Israel of 2006 A.D. with the Israel of 1400 B.C.

Part of why this conflict continues is because of U.S. support of Israel. Our support of Israel comes (in part) from the influence of misguided Christians who think that scripture teaches that the nation of Israel is to rise again before/as Jesus returns for the second coming. They have their convenants confused.

When did it ever take God's people multiple generations to win a war when God was behind the effort? If this is "God's will" that Israel be restored to it's former old covenant glory, then why has it taken so long? Sampson killed an army with a bone. God told Gideon to reduce his forces from thousands to hundreds so that when he won, it would be clear that it was God who won the battle. The stone walls of Jerico were reduced to rubble by the mere voices of the Jewish army. In other places angels actually did the killing and the Jews didn't even have to swing a sword. Why then is God allowing the "nation of Israel" to struggle against it's enemies?

This 21st century nation that we call Israel was not God's idea, which is why our grandchildren will continue to witness exactly what we are seeing today.

In case any of you are tempted: I'm not anti-Semitic. Just ask my sister-in-law. I'm just not willing to say "Israel is right" just because Pat Robertson thinks so.

Wilbur_Nether 8 years, 5 months ago

conservativeman suggested that "Often the consequences [when choosing between violence and non-violence] are death.

"Liberals are against war, they are pacifists when a republican is in power."

Of the first comment, pacifists would sooner choose to die than to take the life of another. Of the second, well, that's simply not true. An examination of the positions of Carter, LBJohnson, Kennedy, Truman, FDRoosevelt, Wilson, puts this misconception to rest.

allmine 8 years, 5 months ago

All must realize Israel has the military might in the middle east. Also this war has waged for well over 2000yrs, so what makes every one think that any one group over their wants our help or intervention? Yes I know hezzbozos and hamasass, sp on purpose, are new per say but this war is best left out of our hands.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

agendas it is all about agendas and the innocent are the ones who pay.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Oldenuf, I stated that to make sure people understand where they are coming from, not to confuse Israel 2006AD to 1300BC. Understanding the people that are fighting is key to understand why they wage war they way they do. Also too many "Christians" and christian haters forget the verse in the bible where it says that God is the same yesterday today and forever. People proclaim merely that Jesus is the prince of peace, but neglect other times where He himself said he didn't come to bring peace but the sword (of the Word) and divide families against one another among many other things. You are living in a diluted world, if you think that God doesn't favor standing up for yourself.

To Wilbur, no thanks. If you are getting a beat down, I don't think you will just lay there and say I wish we could talk this out. You would stand up for yourself. For goodness sakes, Israel is tired of it and is standing up for themselves, just like we would do in that situation.

And to moose, I asked you a question, thanked you for the titled and pointed out that you brought nothing with your comments but an attack. At least offer and idea. But yes it was full of hate you wretched one!!! Whatever man.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"All must realize Israel has the military might in the middle east. "

How? American-made F-16s. Financial support from the west. Name an industry in Israel or Palestine. Tourism, to some degree, but for the most part both sides are being supported from outside. Western Jews provide financial support for Israel. Middle-eastern Arabs provide support for Palestine and terroist groups. If western Zionists and middle-eastern Muslim radicals would quit funneling money into that region, both sides would have to consider peace. It's the flow of resources, resources that keep the populace from suffering the "full" consequences of constant war, that make it possible for them to continue this conflict. If all this fighting was dependent on their own GDPs, it'd be over in a week. Bomb-dropping would be reduced to small-arms fire, which would be reduced to rock throwing, which would be reduced to just a simmering hate. They'd have to turn their attentions to their mutual economies, food production and building infrastructure. They'd be too busy living to find the time for killing.

But, that's a little bit of wishful thinking. Both sides will have a bottomless pit of financial and political support for a long time.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

That incedent is still in dispute with of course both sides saying the other did it. The blurred lines of combat, unless one is right there one never really knows, only what we are told. Such a messy web they all weave.

Wilbur_Nether 8 years, 5 months ago

craigers, just because you would make one choice in a situation doesn't mean others will make that same choice. I'm not telling you to be a pacifist. I am suggesting you understand a little about them, though.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

It is sad that they can't just draw the lines for their territories and stay there isn't it momma? That is how much they hate each other though.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Understood, didn't mean it as an attack.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"God is the same yesterday today and forever"

Yes, but the context of that statement is that God's character never changes ("in whom there is no shadow or variation due to change" - James). His COVENANT and therefore His KINGDOM has changed. The idea that God was once a Zionist and therefore always a Zionist is wrong. His kingdom today does not differentiate between "Jew and Gentile". The kingdom of Christ replaced Zion. Where is God's temple? Where are His Levitical priests and the required sacrifices on the holy of holies? The former location of the holy of holies is now the sige of a muslim holy place! Where the ark of the covenant? Without a temple/tabernacle or a priesthood after the lineage of Aaron, complete with all the required sacrifices at the required location, there is no Zion. Today, all that remains is one wall, a place of mourning. That is not God's plan for His people. The Christ, and his kingdom is God's plan for His people. This is why I said that too many Christians have their covenants confused.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Oldenuf, since I know you know biblical facts, can you tell me what God plans to do with Satan (the enemy)? And why did in the old testament, did He have the Israelites destroy everything? I just want to get an idea of your thoughts on these things.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

According to that logic hippiechick, then all prosecutors should put Colt, HK, Smith and Wesson, Browning, etc on trial with every murder done by gunfire.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Oh, also Oldenuf, the covenant change is a change in how people can come to God and how He will ultimately treat His people. He extends grace and mercy to those who want it, but in the end if all efforts of grace and mercy are tossed aside by people then He will treat them the same way His other enemies were treated long ago.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

Conman - you are a fascist - I feel sorry for you.

craigers - I'm sorry you're caught in a world of demons and monsters. Try reading Elaine Pagels book "The Origin of Satan". Oh yes - you only read the bible and golf.

There is no devil!! do you check under your bed for demons at night and wear a crucifix and garlic to keep away werewolves and vampires?

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

mans inhumanity to man. God gave man free will so now we have a mess last count and in no means picking a side we know I do not do that...yet, 214 dead in lebenon and 25 in Israel. they are not military or terrorist just people. This is free will at work.

monkeywrench1969 8 years, 5 months ago

Here is where things get twisted in all these areas war is currently being waged. Militia's are civilians who bear arms against who ever. When the media lists the dead and wounded they claim "civilian causualties" when many of these were armed militia fighters at some point in the conflict.

THere are women and children who are killed and are legitimate non combatant causulties, but if you watched the most recent show of support in Lebanon this morning the of women and girls as young as six marching in the street with RPGs and Aks to show solidarity for Hezz. Why not carry signs instead of weapons. Could they become targets you bet...will they be considered civilians if killed yes.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

Conman said "War is good for business.

GIVE WAR A CHANCE!"

So I guess being pro-War is being nice? I guess in your twisted mind...

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

moose according to my wife, after drinking my Dt. Dr. Pepper, I could kill anything with my breath, so I don't worry about the garlic and crucifix. Actually I've read other books too. And to top it off, I have actually seen demon possessions so they are real. I hate to tell you that, but oh well you will ridicule anyway.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

I'm sure you've read "Pigs in the parlor"

So tell us about these verified demon possessions... Were people frothing at the mouth and hadnling snakes and speaking in tongues?

monkeywrench1969 8 years, 5 months ago

Hippie chick,

Is a self defense/martial arts instructor, when a woman uses what she learns to protect herself from a rapist successfully. No they get the kudos for helping out.

Once again in some cases certain groups only understand and respect violence. That is the only way one can protect themselves in those situations.

should a man who runs across a rapist brutalizing a woman only use words to stop the action or should he run up, grab the guy and use whatever force he needs to stop it and hold him for the cops.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

monkeywrench please remember of where you speak do these women have a choice? probably not but not there can not say 100% but you either. The deaths that are being reported are by rocket fire not arms fire. This would leave one to believe because of the terrorists placing and using of rockets which is right in the middle of peoples homes and apt. that they are just victims. Just because you do not stand up against a terroist does not mean you support them people do many things for many reasons fear is the biggest.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Actually He is very real, but I guess proof is only out there for those that are feeble-minded enough to believe in Him. Oh well, I will stay in my fairy tale.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

I've been in many pentacostal and charismatic churches where they supposedly exorcised people of demons. Expectations and the collective psychology of those kind of groups can "create" what looks like an impressive exorcism. And the people that suposedly got freed will even say they did just to appease everyone's expectations.

Demons, monsters, chupacabra, the living dead...

Man can create such wonderfully evil things with his imagination. But the real evil is in the mind of men who try to exert their will over others by force whether it be a husband, a boss, the President. Man willing to hurt others for his own benefit is the real evil. Look in the mirror folks. There is the evil.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

If I understand the symbolism in Revelation, Satan will be locked up for eternity (I don't have a Bible in front of me, I'm winging it from memory).

God ordained utter destruction because He knew that if any semblance of the pagan, idol-worshipping cultures survived, then Israel would "play the harlot" and go after those idols, etc. This is also why eating a calf boiled in it's mother's milk and tattoos were forbidden: these were popular practices of the people that had been driven out of the land, and God didn't want them to copy any part of those cultures.

There is also a place that states that God waited to free the Jews from slavery until the time that the sins of the Canannites was "full". Think: Sodom. God only decided to destroy Sodom once it was clear that 100% of the populace was steeped in sin (not one righteous person). This was also true for the Canannites and others that were driven out so that the nation could be established.

So, the idea was that God commanded them to completely destroy the people and all signs of their cultures for the sake of creating a safe place for His people to live, a place where they would not be tempted by the practices of any survivors of the former Hittites or Canannites. And... history tells us that they failed to do just that, and that they suffered greatly for having failed to do what they were commanded.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

Conman - sorry I offended you. Please note that I did not call you a nazi. I am concerned about this country sliding into fascism. Please see

http://mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

oh dear F Troop is at full strength.

I will not say that god doesn't exist. But I am very willing to say that the Jesus everyone worships definitely didn't exist. He is pure myth.

For a truer account of how xianity started try "Jesus, one hundred years before Christ" by Alvar Ellegard.

The new testament is based entirely on a mythical christ. It's funny how Paul - who would've been a contemporary of Jesus didn't know any details about Jesus at all except that he was crucified, and supposedly resurrected. Knew nothing about virgin birth, walking on water, etc. And the gospels were written a bare minmum of seventy years after Jesus' alleged resurrection. So no one that actually knew him (if he existed) wrote about him.

And again I commend "Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels to all my friends out there who are worried about Beelzebub. He is mythical too.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

Just because it has not been said and it was the point of the article of how this new action is affecting some one here in Lawrence. Rabbi Zalmon Tiechtel I hope your father stays safe and returns to you soon.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

well I think they answered kidnapping with fire but why split hairs.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Not in the sense of how you picture them moose. (This is in response to your question about demons). It actually wasn't in a church setting either, with somebody that is close to me. There wasn't a need to try and prove to unbelievers that they are real, no need to put on a show and I won't deny that some churches have done that in order to scare those in the congregation or other unbelievers. As for the person, they convulsed, had rage, and everytime I started to pray they reached to choke me, had a great increase in strength. However, when I spoke in the name of Jesus for the demons to come out, it all stopped. It was the first time I had ever encountered anything of that nature and the only thing that came to my mind was how to handle and deal with it according to the bible. It worked and not only this instance but other cases of miraculous healings have completely proven to me the existence of my Creator and the power of Jesus' name, which can only be because of His realness. Both life and death of His existence and resurrection. The spiritual realm of this life is real, in fact just as real as the physical.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Oldenuf, thanks for the discourse. I agree with your last post. I would think logically with Israel that this is why they wage war the way they do. That is what I was trying to get acrossed earlier was Israel's way of war probably hasn't changed much.

blessed3x 8 years, 5 months ago

It's always easy to say "don't get involved" until it's your family being lined up against the wall.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

some where in here was a story in the paper now it seems to be they did it no they did it but she started it no he did. people anything on the story?

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"It's funny how Paul - who would've been a contemporary of Jesus didn't know any details about Jesus"

Why do you say this? Because he didn't write about these things? Why would he write about them? Four people, at least 3 of which walked with Jesus, already wrote gospels. Why would Paul write another gospel?

You say that Paul wrote that Jesus was "supposedly resurrected". Look closely. Paul wrote that he actually encountered the resurrected Christ, so in that case, he had a firm knowledge of whether or not he was resurrected.

"no one that actually knew him (if he existed) wrote about him"... "the gospels were written a bare minmum of seventy years after Jesus' alleged resurrection"

Where did you get this idea from? I've read a lot of scholarship on the subject and have not read anything mainstream that supports what you just wrote. The LATEST that ANY of the gospels, or any part of the new testament, for that matter, was written was 90-95 A.D.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

No I've not read them. You could spend a lifetime reading naysayers. I don't have time for reading guys like Ehrman who sought God, then realized that God wouldn't conform to what they wanted God to be, so they use their God-given abilities to write something that justifies their choices.

No, life is too short. I've read enough stuff like that to know what it reads like.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

I agree 75x55. The manual is in their hands, no?

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

scenebooster, have you read "The Pursuit of God", "Mere Christianity", "Case for Faith", "Rightly dividing The Word", etc? No? It could be after reading a few of these books and if you disagreed with them, then you probably wouldn't want to keep reading books like it would you? Oldenuf is not coping out, he is stating that he read the same type of book, and didn't agree with it and doesn't want to read more.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"COP-OUT! "I didn't read it, but I know I don't like it". Erhman's book is thoughtful and well written. You seem to be afraid to be challenged in your beliefs..."

You apparently only read part of my post. I've read ENOUGH of that sort of stuff. Why would I spend time on a guy like Erhman? I know his story, and it reads like most: I went looking for God, became disullusioned, and took my talents in a different direction.

This is not a question of scholarship. I am 100% sure that it is very well-written. So what? This is a question of faith. Erhman lost his faith, which is why he wrote that book. That is his self-justifying way of rejecting God, which is unfortunate, because he's pulling others down with him.

I know my Father. I know my Father because of His Word. What seperates me from Ehrman is not who is smarter or more well-read, but which of us is alone and lost and which of us has discovered what it means to be re-connected to He who gives LIFE. Go ahead, fill yourself with the stuff of naysayers... and gain all the benefits of your choices. Me? Like I said, life is too short for reading stuff like that. I once ate a single pig rind and immediately realized that regardless of taste, it had no food value. I've not eaten another pig rind. I'd sooner listen to country music or Rush Limbaugh than read Ehrman. No food value.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

How did this discussion get "here"? Weren't we on Israel vs. Hells-bells or something?

Linda Endicott 8 years, 5 months ago

newagehippiechick, would you like to inform me of one country in the middle east that has NOT, at one time or another, tortured, raped, or killed (sometimes all three) women and children?

It seems to me that Israel has shown remarkable restraint through the years, considering how many countries are against them already. They would be against Israel regardless of what they did or didn't do.

Wilbur_Nether 8 years, 5 months ago

scenebooster wrote: "I think Pope John Paul said something about this..."

I believe you meant Pope John Paul II.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 5 months ago

"Erhman's book is not a personal religious history.

It's an exposition of the history of where some passages of the bible came from, origins other than what we've been led to believe.

I like to have the foundations of my beliefs examined before I act upon them."

Understood, but do you actually know Erhman's personal religious history? In that history you will discover how he arrived at writing that book.

You should have the foundations of your beliefs examined, but I'd encourage you to make sure that the "examination" you speak of gives equal time to God. Craigers suggested "Mere Christianity". I've read part of that, and other stuff from C.S. Lewis, so that would be a good one to consider. Personally, I think the best thing would be to read the Gospel of John. John was the closest thing to a "best friend" that Jesus had on earth, so he gives a very good perspective on the Christ.

Good luck.

Godot 8 years, 5 months ago

"Death. Taxes. Middle East conflict....."

....and change - all inevitable

monkeywrench1969 8 years, 5 months ago

Powershopper hit it on the head. Iran has been trying to divert attention from the Nukes and find a reason to target Israel. Iran claims 6 million + jews did not die during WWII. NOw if these people had shaved heads, were white and carried confederate flags, I think even Hippy chick would be all over them for some form of physical action to take place to assist Israel oin their fight.

If it was a jewish person on our streets being targeted because of their religion here it is a hate crime.

What's the difference in the two. The radical arabs are targeting an entire country for their religion and some are upset because Israel is fighting back. If the non-radical arabs really want to make change and not be associated with the bad guys they need to step up and burn them off to the powers that be so they can put a stop to this quicker.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 5 months ago

"Iran claims 6 million + jews did not die during WWII. NOw if these people had shaved heads, were white and carried confederate flags, I think even Hippy chick would be all over them for some form of physical action to take place to assist Israel oin their fight."

DING DING DING....We have another winner!

Radical arabs with cresents are no different than radical skinheads with swastikas.

mooseamoose 8 years, 5 months ago

Old - you should examine the Gospel of John's authorship. The Gospel of John was not written by that disciple.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html

What is disconcerting is that xians choose to believe a well crafted myth. It cannot be proven that Jesus of Nazareth even existed. Bart Ehrman did a great job of showing that. And by the way I have great respect for Prof. Ehrman who based on his born again faith became a biblical scholar. I am sure that none posting here could accomplish what he has accomplished. What a boring profession. But essential. And to find he could not even prove that Jesus of nazareth even existed. Which none of you can do either.

I personally think that Alvar Ellegard has it correct in his theory that the Essenes had a huge hand in turning what had been a sect of the jewish faith into Xianity with great help from Paul.

By the way - have you ever noticed that although Paul HAD to be a contemporary of Jesus - he knows NOTHING of the details of his life. That's very odd don't ya think? Doesn't know about the virgin birth, or Joseph and Mary or anything else. All he knows is that Jesus was crucified and (allegedly) resurrected.

Check out "Jesus" by Alvar Ellegard for a more realistic look at the origins of the xian church.

monkeywrench1969 8 years, 5 months ago

It was documented during WWII and now with the NEo Nazi's they have had strong ties because of their mutual hate for JEws. And how about the Nation of Islam...they have met with Metzger of the White Aryan Resistance in creating a segregated US. They have met on other occasions due to their hate of Jews.

What I equate this to is one or two guys (Iran and Syria) egging on an idiot (Hezzbozo) to pick a fight with a bigger guy (Israel) so they can create havoc. The big guy should still have the right to protect himself with whatever means nessesary (even the new Kansas law says you don't have to back up or turn the other cheek first) to protect yourself. It is not the big guys fault the stupid guy can't figure out he is going to get his tail kicked.

monkeywrench1969 8 years, 5 months ago

Here is something else that never got a lot of air play when it came to Syria and Iraq. Here is part of the first page and link

http://www.nysun.com/article/26514?page_no=1

January 26, 2006 Edition > Section: Foreign > Printer-Friendly Version

Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria, Sada Says BY IRA STOLL - Staff Reporter of the Sun January 26, 2006 URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/26514

The man who served as the no. 2 official in Saddam Hussein's air force says Iraq moved weapons of mass destruction into Syria before the war by loading the weapons into civilian aircraft in which the passenger seats were removed.

The Iraqi general, Georges Sada, makes the charges in a new book, "Saddam's Secrets," released this week. He detailed the transfers in an interview yesterday with The New York Sun.

"There are weapons of mass destruction gone out from Iraq to Syria, and they must be found and returned to safe hands," Mr. Sada said. "I am confident they were taken over."

Mr. Sada's comments come just more than a month after Israel's top general during Operation Iraqi Freedom, Moshe Yaalon, told the Sun that Saddam "transferred the chemical agents from Iraq to Syria."

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 5 months ago

I bet that's just the "slam dunk" BushCo have been looking for, monkeywrench.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 5 months ago

"My point is that the Bible is an incomplete, politically created document, not the "inspired by God, infallible, can't possibly question it, shut up and eat your vegetables" book conservative Christians justify every little unethical thing upon."

ANd you are RIGHT HGA, at least in MY opinion. I like the books that "good christians" don't read! I do however disagree with a broad brush painting all "Christians" by those that are posting on this blog, that is beneath you. your statement :

"The Christians here are all hell-bent on wiping out (some would call it "genocide") Muslims "because we have to"."

Please clarify in that non-broad brush definition.

craigers 8 years, 5 months ago

Oldenuf, I don't know if you will get this or not. After I left our discussion yesterday I started to think about my question about Satan a little more and then I started to remember more about Revelation. This goes a little bit further in proving that God will exact judgement on the people of this earth. When Christ returns like others have mentioned before, the battle of Armageddon, that blood will be shed and will flow up to a horses bridle. No matter how you look at it, it will be ugly at that point of history. My point is to show you that due to the new convenant, God has given unbelievers a pass on judgement for the time being and if they cover themselves with Christ they will be fine. However, for those that don't, they will have the same result as the earlier enemies of Israel had, utter destruction. His personality is the same because he is unchanging. The difference is that since we are under that new covenant, the judgement has been pronounced but only the ones that apply the covering of Jesus will not be destroyed. Once again, I do appreciate discussing things like this with you since you seem to have a good grasp of the bible and it's meaning.

Wilbur_Nether 8 years, 5 months ago

Try again, newagehippiechick. You're not even close.

How about: "When a group of guys (lots of countries, leaders, and political organizations) refuse to listen to each others' concerns and create mutually acceptable solutions, havoc ensues."

Linda Endicott 8 years, 5 months ago

Why do you keep bringing up Bush? Lord knows I don't agree with the man most of the time, but he has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. He didn't cause it, he didn't create it. This conflict has been going on, in one arena or another, for centuries.

The conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians, or Israel and Lebanon, were going on long before Bush got into office. I suspect they will still be going on long after he has left office.

And I fail to see what is so wrong with Israel standing up for itself. Finally. They've put up with enough guff from other countries for a long time.

worldofpeace 8 years, 5 months ago

Why don't we bring Bush to this, crazyks? He is the leader of the only nation that turns a blind eye to israeli excessive use of force, and is against any type of cease-fire, as of now. That made me sick to hear him claim that he cares about human life (in his post-veto speech today). If he did really care about human life, he would tell Ambassador Bolton to vote in favor of the UNSC resolution calling for a cease-fire, instead of applying a veto.

Bush is in a position of telling Israel to stop bombing Lebanese infrastructures and densely-populated areas, which have nothing to do with Hezbollah. As he spoke today, civilians were dying, and he encouraged it.

Those of us who have been closely following the Arab-Israeli conflict are aware that US foreign policy in the region is dictated by AIPAC, the most powerful pro-israeli lobby in the West. No US official (including the President) gets elected against the will of AIPAC. No wonder the entire Congress is going to formally vote in support of Israel in the next days.

I am not antisemitic, I just tell the facts the ways they are. You may wan to defend Israel that much, but you owe the truth to the millions of us whose tax dollars fund the israeli occupation of palestinian territories. Israel has systematically refused to abide by UNSC resolutions 181, 242, 338..., and the US has always turned a blind eye to that.

To have a better understanding of the situation, please read the study released by two american professors, whose objectivity on US-Israel relations is unquestionable. Here is the link: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 5 months ago

worldofpeace:

"Those of us who have been closely following the Arab-Israeli conflict are aware that US foreign policy in the region is dictated by AIPAC, the most powerful pro-israeli lobby in the West. No US official (including the President) gets elected against the will of AIPAC.

Rubbish, pure rubbish. What about President Carter who was clearly on the side of Sadat and PLO, and not Isreal. Next wandering generality?

"I am not antisemitic, I just tell the facts the ways they are."

Many KKK members have said something similar to "prove" the black race was inferior...just facts they said. (I don not subscribe to that, just referencing KKK BS for sake of discussion). Those are the last dying words of a "racist" and a very ignorant POV.

Your post is just as baffeling as your website you put up. LOndon book review of one of the most socialists authors of our time??? Are you kidding me? This is the guy that endorsed that maniac from Scotland that was taking bribes from Saddam and was giving the US hell, who is now in jail.

Name starts with a "G" I believe.

"Those of us who have been closely following the Arab-Israeli conflict ..."

What you mean is "Those of us that have a preconceived notion and are following political dogma that are closely following our own propaganda..."

There is not one scintilla of thought original or analysis in your tirade other that it screams "It is right because I thinkso!"

"To have a better understanding of the situation, please read the study released by two american professors, whose objectivity on US-Israel relations is unquestionable."

Not even on a good doy would I allow "Professors" to determine our Foreign Policy or National Security Policy. NOt even on a bet>

Your citation is crapola and very left wing....additionally it does not fit the facts... Check out "Sharon's Gambit", that is it.

Linda Endicott 8 years, 5 months ago

Bush is in a position to tell Israel to stop bombing?

Other countries have been in a position to tell Bush to stop what he's doing in Iraq, too. Has he listened? Has he stopped?

Being diplomatic isn't easy, and anyone who tries to say they could do it is an out and out liar. What country do we want to tick off today? What country that is our ally today might be our enemy tomorrow? Words, even just mere words, have consequences. And those consequences might not be readily known for years to come.

You're talking as if Bush is the only president that the U.S. has had since Israel became a nation.

Wilbur_Nether 8 years, 5 months ago

holygrailale wrote "Apparently, I do research a little faster than conservativeman." Which is excellent. You are now in charge of all of conservativeman's research.

[mildly indulgent chuckle]

worldofpeace 8 years, 5 months ago

ABSESTOS,

Obviously you cannot analyze, you have too much animosity towards those who freely express their opinions without blindly supporting a terrorist state (Israel). I am not inventing any facts - unlike your KKK buddies whom you referred to in your comparison (yes, you really had to go that low.) Calling me a racist is irreleveant, you don't know my race, I do not write like you.

By refering to President Carter, you just made my point. Yes, he was not reelected in part due to his position during the peace talks. The phrase "I'm not antisemitic" was just an anticipated answer to biggots who think that you really are whenever you disagree with the policies of Israel, which happens to be a jewish state.

You have the same feeling for the London Review of Books, but believe it or not, they did not order the research. This was done, if I may remind you, by two independent american scholars, and their evidence is irrefutable. Obviously you did not read the study, nonetheless you still think whatever they say is just rubbish. For your information, they are not trying "to determine our foreign policy", but rather give a balanced insight to biased readers like you.

I am not interested in any propaganda, and yes, I have been closely following the socio-political situation in the Middle East for the last decade. I have written several college papers on that issue.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 5 months ago

Has anyone heard if the Rabbis' father has made it home yet?

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