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Should non-union city exployees expect to get the same raise and benefits as union employees?

Response Percent Votes
62% 484
32% 253
Not sure
4% 36
Total 773


RogueThrill 6 years, 6 months ago

Ideally, if you don't belong to the Union you wouldn't benefit from the Union. That's the jerk in me speaking.

But in reality, Unions exist to benefit all workers.

giveitsomethought 6 years, 6 months ago

I would have to claim not informed well enough to answer. Is it just police and fire unions in town? Are other city positions unionized as well? If it is just police and fire, I think they have a hazardous job and should have a better benefit and compensation package.

over_par 6 years, 6 months ago

Yes they should. As soon as they go through the same training and face the same hazards

del888 6 years, 6 months ago

All residents in the city should get the same raise. Where's mine?

somebodynew 6 years, 6 months ago

Well this is mis-leading as neither has a true Union. They are only recognized as bargaining agent and the "contracts" are just memorandums of understanding. Trust me that is pointed out by the City if they try to change anything (and on at least one occassion) the MOU did not stand up in court when the City decided to change something.

Richard Heckler 6 years, 6 months ago

Non Union involves higher paid staff with decent salary and benefit packages. Have not seen any at that level laid off lately.

It may likely there are wage increases written into their contracts. Not necessarily based on performance.

Cai 6 years, 6 months ago

I would argue that, ideally, the answer to this should change:

How much of the raise is the union ACTUALLY responsible for?

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

I'd say no.

If you don't want to join a union, that's your choice, but you should forgo any benefits that accrue from union membership, negotiations, etc.

Kendall Simmons 6 years, 6 months ago

Then you have to forgo any benefits that accrue from union memberships, too. Things that include workplace health and safety (of which I personally find bathroom breaks really, really useful).

Frankly, I wish unions weren't necessary. But, human beings being what they are, that will never be the case.

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

I would if I chose not to join a union.

There are federal regulations about things like workplace safety, etc.

Folks who are anti-union are entitled to not join one, but they're not entitled to reap the benefits of union membership if they do so.

Clovis Sangrail 6 years, 6 months ago

There are federal regulations about things like workplace safety only because there are unions.

Do you really think congress would pass the laws that put those regulations in place on their own?

skinny 6 years, 6 months ago

Equal pay for equal work! If you pay your union dues too!

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

If unions negotiate with employers for certain wages/benefits/etc. why should somebody who doesn't want to join a union be entitled to the benefits of union membership?

Sounds like wanting to eat your cake and have it too.

Alexander Smith 6 years, 6 months ago

Well first of all, being of a union background and not any more, unions are hurting our economy. They had there time and for the most part are no longer needed. Unions abuse budgets and while I was in the union, I have never seen such laziness and unwillingness to help other co-workers "because its not in my contract".

Non-Union should have same access to raises and benefits as Unions. To not to is discrimination. Also after being a part of both parties, non-union on average are more drivent to perform and provide better service then a union. They are more likely to go the extra mile to get the job done. So, to not offer a benefit or raise to a non-union is unfair.

Getting rid of unions would for sure lead to better use of budgets and less waste of resources. Effective, quality, efficiency DOES not equal UNION.

Now this is in general, I do know some union people that really work above and beyond.. the sad thing is they usually don't broadcast it because they will get in trouble with the union leaders. SAD

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

If raises etc. are offered on the basis of performance, then I would agree.

But, if they are part of negotiated agreements with unions, then I disagree. If people want the benefits of union membership, they can join the union.

some_random_person 6 years, 6 months ago

So why should a non-union employee get paid less than a union employee for the same exact labor? Because he voluntarily paid a due? Pathetic....Same work = same pay, no matter if you belong to some "club."

Union guys pay dues so they can be protected when they slack off at their job because they know the employers have to go through hell to fire them because the union protects the worker from scrutiny. Unions foster a work environment that doesn't encourage hard work or performance. So they can go to work and make the same or better pay for sub-par job performance, has some similarities to communism don't you think?

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

Unions negotiate with employers on a variety of issues, including wages, benefits, work environments, etc.

Why should somebody who doesn't believe in unions, and doesn't want to join one, reap the benefit of union negotiations?

some_random_person 6 years, 6 months ago

Why do union negotiations even exist for wages? Shouldn't the employer discuss the employee's wages directly with the employee. Why do we need a middle man to make money off that?

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

The fundamental idea of a union is that joining together in a group gives employees more power at the bargaining table.

It's easy for an employer to ignore an individual employee, and much harder to ignore a large group of them.

labmonkey 6 years, 6 months ago

Why should the person who doesn't take the risk of being in the Union and not pay the Union dues get the benefits and raises negotiated by the Union?

Ironmouse, I question your sincerity. I am currently in a Union and I doubt I would be making anywhere near what I make without it. There are a few disadvantages such as some people being kept around that should have been kicked out the door long ago, but for the most part we stand together and make sure that a Union brother doesn't get screwed. And you follow your job description in a contract... or else you are screwing someone else out of overtime. Unions do have their place as long as they aren't too weak to where a company can run all over the employees (to the point where the union employees are the first ones to go in a cutback), or too powerful to where they run their industry into the ground i.e. UAW.

Then again, I am in a company-union relationship and not a taxpayer-union relationship.

somedude20 6 years, 6 months ago

The union I have cannot strike so what power does it really have. "You know, if you do not make working conditions safer, the union will type a strongly worded letter or something."

My pops was a union man (better than the Confederacy) so I too have been one but unions ain't what they use to be. They use to have tiger teeth now they have the biting power of Zsa Zsa Gabor

Katara 6 years, 6 months ago

I don't know about that. I heard Zsa Zsa had a mean slap.

2002 6 years, 6 months ago

Unions for government employees are wrong. They do not benefit the employees and they cause great harm to the level of service provided to the public. Unionized public employees ARE NOT public servants. They, as a group, a self servants organizing in a fashion to attempt to look out for themselves first. Unionized public safety workers are the worst of this group. Unions don't get government employees anything extra, it is a market based employment system. If a government agency doesn't pay well they will end up with weak employees. What unions do is negotiate rules to preserve underperforming employees jobs and creating promotion rules that ignore performance.

I am actually pro-union for many fields, but adamantly against government employee unions; so yes, every employee should get the same union or not.

some_random_person 6 years, 6 months ago

Unions = A market-based employment system. Perfect way to put it. I agree with the purpose of a union to protect workers from abusive employers, but as unions exist today, it's all about the money. It's a money-driven employment market, far from the intended purpose of physically protecting the workers. Unions are some of the most corrupt organizations in America, and we should do away with them. We have laws now to protect the workers, we don't need unions...

some_random_person 6 years, 6 months ago

Labor is labor is labor. Just because some guy negotiated some "deal" with the people that cut the checks somehow this translates to different pay for the same type of labor? That makes absolutely no sense. And why should a union have anything to do with wage negotiation? Unions should only exist for their intended purpose in the 1920's, to ensure the health and safety of the workforce. Where in that statement does it say: "Negotiate better wage terms and benefits"? And guess what, we have laws now to protect workers. WE DON'T NEED UNIONS!!! What a joke, you people want to talk about our politicians being corrupt, take a look at Teamsters or other unions out there, CORRUPTION is their middle name. It all boils down to greed....

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

When workers organize in a union, that gives them more bargaining power in negotiations with employers, because they're a larger group, and not isolated individuals.

If people don't want to participate in that situation, that's fine, but then they don't deserve to get any of the benefits of it.

I have no problem with people choosing not to join a union, if they don't want to. But, I have a problem with people who choose not to join one, and then want to get the benefits of one.

labmonkey 6 years, 6 months ago

You're just mad there isn't a fast food worker union ot negoiate for you.

some_random_person 6 years, 6 months ago

Mature reply....

@jafs, so your argument is just because a group of workers have more power to negotiate they have the right to induce extortion upon the employer? Because that's what you're describing, a group of union workers collectively applying pressure on the employer for higher wages, is by definition extortion. So just because a group of 20 guys can collectively bargain makes a 40-hr week worth more than it actually cost in a non-union situation? Wake up, this is the fundamental flaw with unions (among others), look no further than GM's bankruptcy. They had sky-high labor costs and were being outpaced by foreign automakers BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T COMPETE. Their labor costs were too high!!! Especially for jobs that require no decision-making, have you ever seen an assembly plant worker work? Why does that position need to pay a person $29/hr (including benefits) that requires said person to make ZERO decisions? It's pathetic, it's overpaying. People in this country have been living too high on the hog for too long...It baffles me that people think they deserve higher wages for those type of jobs....

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

Unions came into being because of exploitation of labor by management.

In an ideal world, they wouldn't be necessary, but...

According to testimony before Congress, total union wages and benefits at auto manufacturers amounted to about 10% of total expenses. I'd say there are plenty of other areas that should be looked at.

If you want to be on your own, and take whatever wages an employer deigns to provide, then don't join a union. But don't expect the benefits of being in one.

The problems of mismanagement and unnecessary expenses at the top seem like larger problems to me than union wages. Competing with other countries in which people are being paid much much less isn't best solved by lowering our wages.

That's called the "race to the bottom".

Pete Kennamore 6 years, 6 months ago

Why on earth would I want to join a union? I will always trust in my own ability to out perform the collective and to negotiate compensation that my employer and I find agreeable.

ljwhirled 6 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, but what if there were 20 guys out there with your same skills willing to do the work for 1/4 your pay?

Unions protect unskilled labor by ensuring that they get a fair days pay for a fair days work.

Even men who work with their hands deserve to be able to feed their families.

Pete Kennamore 6 years, 6 months ago

Along the way, I too worked with my hands in unskilled and semi-skilled roles. In one case, I worked side-by-side with union co-workers. My position is the same, to the best of my ability, I sought to out perform. In every case, I reaped the rewards.

Cai 6 years, 5 months ago

the problem happens when there's so many people out of work. minimum wage is better than no wage, almost regardless of conditions. and yes, there's a limit to how much that wage is worth...but.

10 years ago, there was such a shortage of labor in general that free market (read: unionless) worked great by itself for setting conditions and wages - if your employer screwed up, you could get a job elsewhere. now?

I'm not so sure that works. too many people rely on their steady checks to keep going, and for the first time in my adult life, i may actually agree that the union and its dues aren't a waste of my money (note: my money. for me. with my skillset. i'm not advocating that they were a waste of money anyone or everyone. just me.)

some_random_person 6 years, 6 months ago

Unions protect unskilled and underperforming workers....They create a work environment that encourages fundamental laziness. If 20 guys can do the same job the same way for less pay, then that one worker thinks he deserves a higher pay than that job is worth. If that one worker can do a better job than the other 20, well that's a decision for the employer to make whether he wants quality or quantity. It's simple labor economics. Employers shouldn't be exposed to union pressure or extortion to overpay for unskilled work....That's what is making America so uncompetitive in the world today....

Don't like the pay scale? Well then vote for a higher minimum wage, or get skilled, or get an education....

jafs 6 years, 6 months ago

That gives all of the power to employers.

Which is easily abused.

Liberty275 6 years, 6 months ago

Yes no who cares. The real answer is fire and blackball every union member and compensate employes similar to how they would be payed in the private sector for like work.

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