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Archive for Friday, October 12, 2012

VP debate feisty, unlike Obama-Romney

October 12, 2012

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WASHINGTON (AP) — Fierce and focused, Vice President Joe Biden and Republican Paul Ryan gave voters the kind of substantive showdown that was everything the presidential debate was not. Abandoning his boss' caution, Biden uncorked a combative repair job.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan of Wisconsin participate in the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan of Wisconsin participate in the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin shake hands after the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin shake hands after the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

"Not a single thing he said is accurate," Biden shot back when Ryan leveled a charge that President Barack Obama was projecting U.S. weakness.

So it went from Biden all night, from taxes to Iran, where he suggested Republicans wanted a war. He looked directly at the camera to implore seniors like him not to trust Ryan on his Medicare plan: "Folks, follow your instincts on this one."

By going all in, Biden aggressively tried to score on two critical fronts: relating Obama's message in more heartfelt terms and blistering Ryan on multiple fronts so that the Republican nominee, Mitt Romney, would lose his recent surge.

Yet Biden also opened himself to interpretation, coming across to some as strong and to others as cocky and condescending. In the split-screen view, Biden was often rolling his eyes and smiling or laughing, as if Ryan's responses were beyond belief.

The youthful-looking Republican clearly held his own on the grand stage. The lawmaker from Wisconsin was more at ease on his familiar domestic turf and a little more rehearsed on foreign policy. Staying calm where Biden was incredulous, Ryan still poked.

"I know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground," Ryan chided his opponent at one point, "but I think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other."

That was a reference to Obama's listless showing in last week's debate, which gave a lift to Romney's campaign and set the context for this sole vice presidential debate. Ryan essentially played the role that Obama had tried, making his case without getting too tangled up with his partner.

History shows debates between the running mates have little influence on voters, but this one stood out because it now drives the narrative for at least five days, when Romney and Obama take the stage again.

The debate also signals for voters what's ahead, particularly from Obama, who will try to make up for his bad day with his own more aggressive approach.

Sharply run by ABC News moderator Martha Raddatz, the debate gave people what they wanted to see. Even with all the practice by both candidates, there was spirit and spontaneity. And legitimate differences on matters of life and death.

Biden set the tone by taking a question on the deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya and turning it into a defense of Obama's entire national security agenda. He reminded viewers that Obama was willing to chase the Sept. 11 terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden to the end of the earth, and he quoted Romney as essentially saying he wouldn't have done the same.

And it was up to Biden to take the shot Obama did not.

In one of the most memorable moments of the night, he brought up that Romney was videotaped saying that 47 percent of the American people see themselves as government-needy victims.

"These people are my mom and dad," Biden said.

In a ready response, Ryan did more than repeat the line from Romney that he actually cares about 100 percent of Americans. He turned Biden on Biden by telling the gaffe-prone vice president: "I think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way."

Obama had failed at his central mission of drawing distinctions with Romney in a crisp way that connected with people. The merits of competing tax plans or health care visions do not matter much if a debater meanders into the policy weeds or, even worse, fails to deliver a passionate fight. The president ended up doing both.

His aides look back at the first debate and see missed opportunities. Biden went the other direction, seizing any chance to jump on a Ryan inconsistency.

The danger for the aggressor is that both campaigns know the remaining undecided voters at home want answers for them, not partisan bickering.

Nationally, Romney got a clear national bump from his debate performance. But in the election-deciding battleground states that matter, most polls suggest the first presidential debate has not had a significant impact. Obama still holds an edge in Ohio, considered by both sides to be the keystone to the whole election.

Just as the Obama-Romney debate in Denver a week ago influenced what happened Thursday at Centre College in Danville, Ky., now the cycle spins ahead.

Romney and Obama will meet in New York on Tuesday in the midst of an election that is remarkably tight and, more than ever, a fight.

Comments

commonsenseanyone 2 years, 2 months ago

I think I would give the edge to Biden on this debate. Not for anything real specific, but it was clear Biden has a lot of experience due to the fact that he has been a career politician. Which to me, is a good reason not to vote obama/Biden.

However, any sort of positive reactions from his answers will be unfounded due to Biden looking like a complete condescending jerk by grinning and laughing throughout the night.

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

Sooo Romney going over his time limit and talking over Obama at the last debate and doing everything short of calling him "boy" was cool and OK and a sign of strength. Biden takes Ryan to the woodshed and he's being a "condescending jerk". I get it.

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

Since when did pointing out racism become "racist"? I'll get over it when at least a third of this country does.

Topple 2 years, 2 months ago

Wow....seeing racism in everything, eh? You might as well just start calling Romney a proven racist with that superb analysis, cait48.

fiddleback 2 years, 2 months ago

Do you mean to imply that Ryan isn't a career politician? At least Biden ran his own law firm for a couple years.

Matthew Herbert 2 years, 2 months ago

quick fact check: Joe Biden was elected as one of the youngest senators in American history. He began his campaign for the United States Senate before he was even old enough to be Constitutionally able to be in the United States Senate. He's a career politician no matter how you look at it.

fiddleback 2 years, 2 months ago

Never said he wasn't. Just sayin he did build that...

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

Ryan has been in politics since 1992, when he was 22 years old. He was elected to the House in 1998. So he's been in politics for 20 years and in Congress for 14 years, and he obviously has aspirations to stay in politics for the foreseeable future.

Ryan is clearly also a career politician.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 2 months ago

Just as an aside, the men in Ryan's family have a history of dying at a young age. Whatever Ryan's aspirations are, he better hurry.

Topple 2 years, 2 months ago

Ryan is also a racist. Just applying some of that proven cait48 analysis.

Romney is a racist, and Ryan is Romney's running mate, therefore Ryan is a racist.

Transitivity in action.

Kathy Getto 2 years, 2 months ago

Acceptance is the first step to recovery.

Kate Rogge 2 years, 2 months ago

Please. Crazed and aggressive Chucky doll Romney was the Republican wet dream in the last debate. So the equation you prefer is Aggressive/Obnoxious=Strength=Good, but only for Republicans?

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

Bill Maher: "911? I'd like to report an old man beating up a kid on my TV!"
Admit it. Eddie Munster got schooled.

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

I agree, Ryan looked like an inexperienced teenage boy.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 2 months ago

Biden did very well ANSWERING questions as Ryan rambled on many times in an effort to avoid revealing the Romney-Ryan positions.

"Biden was often rolling his eyes and smiling or laughing, as if Ryan's responses were beyond belief." Perhaps they were!

How many time did Paul Ryan not answer the questions ? Plenty

"Ryan chided his opponent at one point, "but I think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other." Romney did that plenty!

Romney/Ryan DO want to privatize medicare and social security which of course brings on ADDITIONAL OVERHEAD AND RISKS which nobody should want.

Paul Ryan said last night that should should be allowed to make more quicker investing in Wall Street which implies playing Wall Street is a sure bet which of course it is not.....absolutely not. If an investment-firm broker made this claim to his clients, he would be arrested and charged with stock fraud. Michael Milken went to jail for several years for making just this type of promise about financial investments. http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2010/0111orr.html

With corporations routinely defaulting on their pension promises, more and more workers must rely on their individual wealth to make up the difference. The stock market collapse at the turn of the millennium wiped out much of the financial wealth of middle class Americans, and the collapse of the housing bubble has wiped out much of their remaining wealth.

Making any cuts to Social Security now, either by raising the retirement age or cutting benefits, would have a huge impact on their remaining retirement income and are not necessary to “save the system.

Social Security does not contribute one dime to the deficit. In fact privatizing Social Security Insurance will add trillions to the debt and put the economy at further risk. http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2010/0111orr.html

Have elected officials which oppose Social Security Insurance lied to the public about Social Security Insurance? Absolutely! http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2010/0111orr.html

Matthew Herbert 2 years, 2 months ago

you ALMOST made it through an entire post without a hack cut and paste job. ALMOST.

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

What's the matter DIST? Feeling the sting this morning?

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

I have only given one thumbs up on this page and it wasn't to myself. Look again.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 2 months ago

From the clips I've seen, it appeared that Biden had a gerbil in his Depends http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=P...

fiddleback 2 years, 2 months ago

Lol @ gerbils and Depends-- you really know your kinks. Not that below the belt snark matters coming from the site's most invisible poster. I've seen piles of dog crap command more attention.

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

Charlie Pierce gives a great analysis on Esquire's website.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/paul-ryan-debate-joe-biden-13626962

"The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch."

Bob Forer 2 years, 2 months ago

The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

I beg to differ. He could have also given him and smiley face and a gold foil star, and written "plays well with others."

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

No conservative "plays well with others".

Topple 2 years, 2 months ago

"Great" meaning that it supports your views.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 2 months ago

Alternate realities from Biden: "..Vice President Joe Biden claimed that the administration wasn't aware of requests for more security in Libya before the Sept. 11 attacks on the U.S. mission in Benghazi during Thursday night's debate, contradicting two State Department officials and the former head of diplomatic security in Libya. "We weren't told they wanted more security. We did not know they wanted more security there," Biden said. In fact, two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests. "All of us at post were in sync that we wanted these resources," the top regional security officer in Libya over the summer, Eric Nordstrom, testified. "In those conversations, I was specifically told [by Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Charlene Lamb] ‘You cannot request an SST extension.' I determined I was told that because there would be too much political cost. We went ahead and requested it anyway."..." http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/10/11/biden_contradicts_state_department_on_benghazi_security

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

Even if Obama and Biden HAD been aware of it, you can't get extra security without paying for it. Mr. Pinocchio himself voted against the appropriation for it. The two state department officials who denied it did so because they didn't have the money and resources for it.
You can't get what you won't pay for. But nice try,

booyalab 2 years, 2 months ago

Biden blatantly lied in the debate to cover his ass. Are you going to admit it or was the "nice try" referring to Snap's attempt to get you to admit that he lied?

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

Biden clearly won. He came accross as an experienced and capable adult, while Ryan seemed like a boy in comparison. Seriously, can you imagine Ryan being president if something were to happen to Romney?

Biden had some great zingers, especially showing Ryan's and the republican's hypocrisy in condemning the bailout while simultaneously requesting funds from it. And how many times can Ryan refuse to answer questions about his tax plan before he loses all credibility?

Having said that, Biden's win would have been bigger if he had limited the smiling and laughing, which came across as disrespectful at times. But at least he brought some emotion (Obama certainly didn't).

mom_of_three 2 years, 2 months ago

Bore and liar - you just described EVERY politician

mom_of_three 2 years, 2 months ago

the plagarism was over 20+ years ago and it wasn't the first time nor the last that a politican borrowed from someone else. And Ryan isn't a liar....HAHAHAHAHA.

Kate Rogge 2 years, 2 months ago

Oh, I like Joe Biden. And I think foreign leaders would prefer to deal with Biden over nasty little lyin' Ryan any day of any week.

mom_of_three 2 years, 2 months ago

I only watched the part about Faith and abortion and Ryan came off so disingenuine and fake. Biden clearly understands what it takes to govern and ENTIRE country.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

Yet CBS shows Biden winning 50% to Ryan's 31% among the all important undecided voters.

Ryan lost the women's vote for Romney when he made his statements about abortion. He made it very clear that the Romney-Ryan ticket will want to get between a woman and her doctor when it comes to choice. Ryan believes his religion should be policy.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

An adult? You mean, someone who can write about the opposition without calling them names?

If you want to see it in your leadership, try it out yourself.

cowboy 2 years, 2 months ago

Biden schooled Eddie Munster last night forcing the candidate to try to speak past the first talking point exposing the shallowness of of the Ryan Romney diatribe. Also exposing the true intent of the Romney approach. Privatize the Social Security program Voucher Medicare Dissolve Medicaid and hand it to the completely unpredictable states Cut education Give mongo tax breaks to the rich Eliminate middle class deductions

The republicans while trying to make hay from Benghazi in Issa's kangaroo hearings exposed a classified CIA base. Brilliant ! They should have had the same fervor looking into the failed oversight by the Bush admin in missing the 911 warnings , faked intelligence leading us into Iraq and the impact of 4400 soldiers KIA and over 33,000 wounded.

Yeah sure I'd be behind electing a duo who wants to eff over the majority of citizens , start another war in the middle east , return to failed financial policies , gets its direction from skygods , and wants to let panels of men determine what choices women have . NOT !

Bob Forer 2 years, 2 months ago

"Biden schooled Eddie Munster...."

I have never seen anything so disrespectful as comparing a US Congressman to Eddie Munster.

I knew Eddie Munster. I watched him on TV. I liked Eddie Munster. I laughed at his one liners. And cowboy, Paul Ryan is no Eddie Munster.

Katara 2 years, 2 months ago

JonasGrumby 11 hours, 5 minutes ago "It looks as if Ryan took the condescending jerk to the woodshed."

JonasGrumby 11 hours, 2 minutes ago "It looks as if Joe "The Joker" Biden got schooled."

JonasGrumby 6 hours, 4 minutes ago "Yes, the foreign leaders who don't like us would prefer Creepy Joe."

JonasGrumby 10 hours, 36 minutes ago "Biden came off as unhinged last night. I wouldn't want that creepy guy's finger on the button."

headdoctor 2 years, 2 months ago

Yup. I think with the damage that could be done having Ryan that close to the oval office could be even more scary than Palin.

tbaker 2 years, 2 months ago

Team Obama needed not to lose this debate. The best they could hope for is avoid another gaff from the godfather of gaffs, and do no further harm to the campaign. By in large they didn't, thanks in large measure to the incredibly poor job of moderating Martha Raddatz did, and Ryan's unwillingness to throw the BS flag and more aggressively engage Mr. Biden.

I like Ryan, but he was timid. Binden delivered more effective answers on balance. But for his unsettling and often rude behavior, this would have been labeled as a close but solid win this morning. As it is, I don't think this is going to move the needle and reverse any of Romney's recent gains, but for team Obama's sake, it's not going to widen the growing spread in the polls anymore either.

Bob Forer 2 years, 2 months ago

The best moment was Joe catching the duplicitous lying Ryan slamming the stimulus program in the debate despite his prior pimping for stimulus funds on behalf of his wealthy constituents. I loved the way Joe smiled while losing his shoes up that weasel's rear end.

labmonkey 2 years, 2 months ago

Everyone here knows I am pro-Romney, but I would actually have to give the edge to Biden last night. It had to do with managed expectations... Biden's were low and Ryan's were through the roof. I fully expected Ryan to hand Biden his lunch and he didn't do that... as a matter of fact, he barely held his own. Ryan, for the life of him, could not give a straight answer to a question... to the point where I was saying out loud "Answer The F***ing Question!!!" Biden was typical "Crazy Joe,", but there were some clear victories for him (Afghanistan for example). These debates are nothing more than performance pieces, and last night, I think Biden actually came out ahead as it was a bad night for both, but a worse night for Ryan.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

"Ryan was the clear winner."

As our Vice President would say, that is malarkey.

Bob Forer 2 years, 2 months ago

"These debates are nothing more than performance pieces....."

Hmmm, so that's you summary after your boys got whupped. Funny, but you had a different perspective on the importance of debates when Mittens prevailed:

"I am definitely excited about him roasting Obama last night....."

"Obama will be backed into a corner after last night and after the beatdown Ryan will put on Biden next week....."

Reminds me of your boy Eddie Munster's hypocrisy dissing the stimulus program despite the fact that he was exposed for pimping it on behalf of several constituents.

I must therefore inform you sir, that you have just been Biden'd.

Have a good day.

labmonkey 2 years, 2 months ago

And if you read the rest of my post from last week you would see that I think Obama will be on his game for the next debate. You would also read that I said Republicans shouldn't get cocky for this reason. I did expect Ryan to roast Biden (and that was the general expectation). Since this didn't happen, Biden came out ahead, but by no means did he whip Ryan. The debates are nothing but performance pieces as both sides sling crap... it is who does it more convincingly who wins. Romney crushed Obama and Biden held his own and then some with Ryan.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 2 months ago

Neither Ryan nor Romney can answer questions directly, fully and honestly because the great majority of Americans would not like the answers. So they dissemble and dodge, and at times just outright lie.

But, sadly, Obama and Biden are in only a slightly better position in being able to answer questions directly, fully and honestly, since both teams of candidates are wholly invested in a status quo that will not improve the lot of the majority of Americans.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 2 months ago

Well known left leaning commentators say Biden won and well known right leaning commentators say Ryan won.

I'm shocked, I say shocked at the comments here. It almost makes me think people went into this debate with their minds already made up and they saw what they wanted to see. I say again, I'm shocked. :-)

Corey Williams 2 years, 2 months ago

Maybe you should have focused more on what was being said, rather than counting interruptions.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 2 months ago

So, were you counting the interruptions? How many times did Ryan interrupt Biden? Did that frustrate you?

Lisa Medsker 2 years, 2 months ago

But when Romney continually interrupted Obama, and talked over his time, it was "strong leadership", right?

bad_dog 2 years, 2 months ago

If true, then you could take a lesson or two from Obama.

Centerville 2 years, 2 months ago

Have to hand it to Peggy Noonan on this one: "They are making the old man dance."

jaywalker 2 years, 2 months ago

Biden was a jackass and uttered "uh" at virtually every pause excepting his memorized openers or closers. His fill was like a bad sports interview. Ryan, more often that not, seemed like a catalog model making the transition into political commercials.
Thought the whole thing was underwhelming. Found the last responses amusing, considering the question posed was about being embarrassed about the prevalent, nasty tone of politics these days; neither jackass disappointed when they chose to display that very tone to sign off.

Shardwurm 2 years, 2 months ago

Really doesn't matter. Barry is going to get walloped in November.

Anyone remember the mid-terms? Unless I'm missing something not much has improved since then.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 2 months ago

Actually, things have definitely improved, if only marginally, and the lack of greater improvement is just as much the fault of Republicans as it is the fault of Democrats.

My prediction-- If Democrats win, on balance, in the upcoming elections, we'll continue to see small, incremental improvement, but not enough to get the unemployment rate below 7%. If the Republicans win, for the great majority of Americans, things will get worse. How much worse? There will be a direct correlation between how bad things will get and the size of the Republican victory, but the unemployment rate will go back to the wrong side of 8%, and perhaps even higher than 10%. The only thing that might keep that rate down for Republicans is a dramatic increase in the number of people working at minimum wage with no benefits.

jafs 2 years, 2 months ago

If you really believe that, why don't you vote for D instead of third party candidates?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 2 months ago

I will in some races. But for president, it's pointless to vote for Obama because of the electoral college system. Instead, I'll vote for candidates who offer much better solutions to our problems than either major party has to offer.

jafs 2 years, 2 months ago

Not pointless, in my view.

If the third party voters voted D instead, then the D candidate might win by a much larger percentage of the popular vote, even if they lost the electoral college.

That sends a clear message to all of them.

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

I agree. The Electoral College is the antithesis of democracy. Your vote really does mean nothing in a legal sense. BUT it does mean something in a moral sense. The fact that Al Gore won the popular vote against George Bush undermined Bush's legitimacy during his first term.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 2 months ago

Gore won the popular vote even without my vote. His vote totals would have likely been even higher if it weren't for the electoral college.

And the Republicans couldn't care less about perceived legitimacy. Bush getting sworn in, no matter how badly they had to corrupt the process to get him there, was all they cared about.

mom_of_three 2 years, 2 months ago

From the CNN article, which differs from posts on here... "Biden was quick to interrupt Ryan, sometimes looking to the rafters or rolling his eyes as Ryan answered -- and occasionally laughed or smiled at the younger congressman's answers. Ryan, on the other hand, regularly smirked at Biden, shook his head from time to time and, at one point, chided Biden for the interruptions."

"Ryan and Biden spent 90 minutes trading punches. And while CNN's post-debate poll showed a slight edge for Ryan, the result was within the margin or error - meaning the event was effectively a draw."

mom_of_three 2 years, 2 months ago

I understand that, but this just shows that both of them were being smirky and judgemental to the other...not just biden.

jonas_opines 2 years, 2 months ago

"I'm shocked, I say shocked at the comments here. It almost makes me think people went into this debate with their minds already made up and they saw what they wanted to see."

Nah, that never happens.

Topple 2 years, 2 months ago

Yea, not sure how that's shocking. LJWorld is notoriously filled with a very liberal crowd, and sprinkled with a few conservatives. I can't possibly understand why politicians can't work together across the isle to get things done when sideline critics with no actual responsibility gripe like kids on the playground.

jonas_opines 2 years, 2 months ago

"LJWorld is notoriously filled with a very liberal crowd, and sprinkled with a few conservatives."

I'd say, really, that the ljworld is sprinkled with an almost equal number of vitriolically one-sided partisans leaning either direction, that spend every thread saying the same things to each other over and over again, and is largely filled with quieter folk who don't fit as easily into a bipolar liberal/conservative schematic.

Katara 2 years, 2 months ago

and now that LJW has a "like" button consistently like their own posts + their fellow trolls' posts in a lame attempt to make it seem like their views are more popular than they really are.

headdoctor 2 years, 2 months ago

It isn't hard to be considered a liberal on LJW. All you have to do is disagree with the fake conservatives and your labeled a liberal.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 2 months ago

"It seemed that Biden's plan was to disrupt and distract Ryan."

He was trying to cut the legs out from under Ryan before he could break into the same "Gish Gallop" that Romney employed, and Obama let him get away with.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/04/1139926/-Romney-Won-Using-a-Debate-Technique-Called-the-Gish-Gallop

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

Really WT (or who ever you are), you found Biden's antics annoying? Wow. Pot, meet kettle.

booyalab 2 years, 2 months ago

I will concede it was a tie on factors unrelated to truth. However, if the Democrats were smart they wouldn't let Biden speak.

good idiot

good idiot by booyalab

fiddleback 2 years, 2 months ago

That's actually fascinating. I imagine GWB comes up with pretty similar results? I guess in 'Merica, we just like to elect good-hearted idiots..

Liberty275 2 years, 2 months ago

I didn't watch it, but did Biden show up drunk?

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

Maybe you could give us another link to an article from The Onion to support your statement.

fiddleback 2 years, 2 months ago

I can assure you those mooks don't keep up with America's finest news source. And yeah, Joe had a little booze and plenty of other stuff but still killed it.

Windemere 2 years, 2 months ago

Watched all of it. Admit I have a strong distaste for people who interrupt others (stronger than average person), so Biden's rude, constant interruptions were outrageous to me. At least Ryan behaved in a civilized way, for the most part. Biden ought to be condemned for his behavior.

Say what you want about the Rep ticket's various wrong-headed, Tea Party pleasing poor stances on social issues. At least they have the guts to tell the truth on the debt & deficit. (at least more so than Pres). It is a moral failing to do as Obama and Dems want, not correct the over-spending.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

So you would allow someone to sit and say things that aren't accurate about you and you would just sit and take it, awaiting your turn?

Regarding over-spending, is it moral to give tax cuts to the extremely rich when we are at war and when we are in debt? To sign pledges not to raise taxes instead of doing what is necessary? That is moral failing.

Windemere 2 years, 2 months ago

I don't like the Norquist stubbornness on taxes, and I think (my impression, not based on hard facts) is that Romney will endorse a Simpson Bowles type of compromise in the end. The fact is, even hiking taxes dramatically on the rich won't hardly dent the fiscal problems. Politicians have bought votes for years by enlarging big spending programs and now we need to be grown ups and make the hard choices. It will only get far worse and painful if we wait. I don't want to be like Greece. We are doing things that lead us there.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

Even if I were to agree with everything you say, what grounds do Republicans have for saying they will suddenly be fiscally responsible?

We aren't anywhere near what is happening in Greece. I don't believe we should dramatically raise taxes, but cuts now will not help. They sure haven't yet, so why will they now? It will require lower spending with a more rational approach to taxes, in my opinion.

Windemere 2 years, 2 months ago

My point is we are the road. And that candidates who go on record as advocating appropriate policies to tackle the huge problems get my support over those who continue to pander to those who don't want unsustainable programs to be reeled in.

jafs 2 years, 2 months ago

Yes, and Ryan/Romney aren't the ones advocating "appropriate" policies, as far as I can tell.

Simpson Bowles was bipartisan, and dealt with the issue of increased revenue as well as decreased spending, and parceled out the cuts in such a way that it might actually be effective, and didn't spare either side.

Ryan voted against it going to Congress for an up-down vote.

Windemere 2 years, 2 months ago

And yes, I'd have the composure to not act like Biden did, and be proud I took the high road. I don't like when Oreilly does it on Fox, nor when a liberal does it.

Bob Forer 2 years, 2 months ago

I have a strong distaste for "polite" (read cowardly) people who sit on their hands nodding their head yes while another persons in soft words harms somebody or something else (in the case it was the truth)

You would have made a good citizen during the time Hitler was coming to power. Favoring form over substance-in this case an intellectually dishonest politician who murders the truth over a truth telling politician who has to interrupt to expose the lies--is for cowards with no backbone,.

With cowards like you, the rise of fascism is always a possibility.

Windemere 2 years, 2 months ago

So you are comparing Ryan to Hitler? Ridiculous red herring. Lets brand everyone who disagrees with us as monsters.

Bob Forer 2 years, 2 months ago

I think you simply don't get it. The form of the message pales in insignificance compared to the message itself. Scared, albeit polite people like you who simply want to get along and avoid confrontation at all costs are placated as long as the message is spoken gently, despite the fact that it may be dishonest, deception, disdainful and dangerous.

jonas_opines 2 years, 2 months ago

"Say what you want about the Rep ticket's various wrong-headed, Tea Party pleasing poor stances on social issues. At least they have the guts to tell the truth on the debt & deficit."

Only when they're not in control of a branch or two of the government. Their debt/deficit rhetoric, much like their limited government rhetoric, becomes a pale shadow of itself when they have the helm of our government, and it certainly doesn't translate very well into actual action. The federal spending levels have risen under every president, for several decades now. As for deficits, there's only two presidents that have overseen anything other than Budget Deficits for their entire term. Clinton during the last years of his, and Bush in the first year of his.

http://www.supportingevidence.com/Government/fed_budget_over_time.html http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1929_2010USk_11s1li011lcn_G0f_Deficits_In_Inflation-adjusted_Dollars

Windemere 2 years, 2 months ago

No question that there's blame to around. Ryan probably cast votes In the past I'd decry as adding to the problem. But at least they are addressing it now in a way much more direct and serious than Obama. I'd rather have someone in office who publicly promised to make headway than someone I perceive to be more likely to add to the problem.

jonas_opines 2 years, 2 months ago

So you're voting for Gary Johnson?

My point is simply: if they "probably" (certainly) cast votes in the past that added to the problem, and are only addressing it now, on the campaign trail against a president who is seen as a spendthrift, then how seriously are we to take their campaign promises? Seems much the same, to me, as Obama's talk of change.

fiddleback 2 years, 2 months ago

I have some blankets I'd like to give you...

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

I liked how it began by the Republican asking, "Do you mind if I call you Joe?"

Oh, wait, that was Sarah Palin.

Nevermind.

Centerville 2 years, 2 months ago

At least Biden knew enough to not use his old "I have the highest IQ in the room" line last night. Even that airhead running the debate would have hooted out loud.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

Seriously, good debate. Both presented their side well, neither probably won over too many undecided voters, and they showed passion for their views. Good for them. I think Biden won, but not by a huge margin. The main thing Biden did was give a jolt to Democrats who were not pleased with Obama's performance in the first debate. This helped to stop the bleeding.

Onward to the Presidential debate!

And how anyone can be undecided at this point is beyond me. Just saying.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 2 years, 2 months ago

They can debate all they want. Romney is a liar, jerk, flop-flopper, limbot, and generally a disaster waiting in the wings if the people if the U.S. elect him as president.

Ryan.....Eddie Munster?? Why do you hate Eddie Munster??

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

Biden may have been less courteous than Ryan, but I think women will vote for the jerk who will defend their right to reproductive freedom rather than the courteous guy who said he will take it away and impose his particular religious beliefs on everyone.

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

Suggesting that women will vote based on who is more courteous treats women as shallow. My point was that women will vote based on who will defend their fundamental rights. See the difference? Try to keep up.

Katara 2 years, 2 months ago

The right to reproductive freedom means that women get to decide what is best for them, whether it be an abortion or carrying a terminal pregnancy through birth. It means that women can choose how many children they can have, whether it be none or 20, like the Duggars. It means women make the choice as to what is best for their family.

Someone who sees reproductive freedom as just access to abortion really has no clue as to what that fundamental right really means.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

We should all show contempt for someone when they lie.

If you think women are against Biden because of his approach, you haven't realized that Ryan outed the Romney-Ryan ticket as wanting to eliminate women's right to choice. Substance matters to voters, even if you pretend they don't.

beatrice 2 years, 2 months ago

Yes, they are dead. He should ignore that they ever existed. (rolling my eyes)

yourworstnightmare 2 years, 2 months ago

As opposed to Edie Munster using the death of his father and his mother on SS and medicare to "garner" sympathy.

Sympathy is best garnished with a sprig of rosemary.

SnakeFist 2 years, 2 months ago

I heard an interesting insight on the radio this afternoon: The side doing the most complaining probably lost. I'm hearing an awful lot of complaining from Ryan supporters.

yourworstnightmare 2 years, 2 months ago

Eddie Munster was thoroughly schooled.

Particularly devastating were the letters that Ryan wrote to the administration begging for stimulus money to stimulate the economy in his district and then criticizing the stimulus.

Also devastating was Ryan criticizing the Obama policy in the middle east and then saying he agreed with the policy.

Biden for the win! Ryan = epic fail.

jafs 2 years, 2 months ago

That reminds me of his criticism of Obama for not taking up Simpson Bowles recommendations, after having voted against them.

How on earth do these folks manage to live with all of the cognitive dissonance?

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 2 months ago

Hahahahaha!
So Fox has now come out with the conspiracy theory that Biden was drunk during the debate. Which means that Paul Munster was schooled not just by an old man but a DRUNK old man.
"Find out what Grant drinks and send a barrel of it to each of my other generals!"
Abraham Lincoln - Upon hearing complaints that Gen. Ulysses S. Grant drank alcohol to excess.

fiddleback 2 years, 2 months ago

Oh come on--he had way more in his system than that. Makes Grant look like a Mormon.

tbaker 2 years, 2 months ago

I don't think either man "won" the debate, at least not to the extent this is going to matter in the polls one way or another. Although Biden did provide plenty of reasons for people to question whether or not they want a guy like him to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency. Besides being rude he was also somewhat wierd and inappropriate. If he isn't making me laugh at his incompetence he is giving me the creeps.

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