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Archive for Friday, October 12, 2012

VP debate feisty, unlike Obama-Romney

October 12, 2012

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WASHINGTON (AP) — Fierce and focused, Vice President Joe Biden and Republican Paul Ryan gave voters the kind of substantive showdown that was everything the presidential debate was not. Abandoning his boss' caution, Biden uncorked a combative repair job.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan of Wisconsin participate in the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan of Wisconsin participate in the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin shake hands after the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin shake hands after the vice presidential debate at Centre College, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2012, in Danville, Ky.

"Not a single thing he said is accurate," Biden shot back when Ryan leveled a charge that President Barack Obama was projecting U.S. weakness.

So it went from Biden all night, from taxes to Iran, where he suggested Republicans wanted a war. He looked directly at the camera to implore seniors like him not to trust Ryan on his Medicare plan: "Folks, follow your instincts on this one."

By going all in, Biden aggressively tried to score on two critical fronts: relating Obama's message in more heartfelt terms and blistering Ryan on multiple fronts so that the Republican nominee, Mitt Romney, would lose his recent surge.

Yet Biden also opened himself to interpretation, coming across to some as strong and to others as cocky and condescending. In the split-screen view, Biden was often rolling his eyes and smiling or laughing, as if Ryan's responses were beyond belief.

The youthful-looking Republican clearly held his own on the grand stage. The lawmaker from Wisconsin was more at ease on his familiar domestic turf and a little more rehearsed on foreign policy. Staying calm where Biden was incredulous, Ryan still poked.

"I know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground," Ryan chided his opponent at one point, "but I think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other."

That was a reference to Obama's listless showing in last week's debate, which gave a lift to Romney's campaign and set the context for this sole vice presidential debate. Ryan essentially played the role that Obama had tried, making his case without getting too tangled up with his partner.

History shows debates between the running mates have little influence on voters, but this one stood out because it now drives the narrative for at least five days, when Romney and Obama take the stage again.

The debate also signals for voters what's ahead, particularly from Obama, who will try to make up for his bad day with his own more aggressive approach.

Sharply run by ABC News moderator Martha Raddatz, the debate gave people what they wanted to see. Even with all the practice by both candidates, there was spirit and spontaneity. And legitimate differences on matters of life and death.

Biden set the tone by taking a question on the deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya and turning it into a defense of Obama's entire national security agenda. He reminded viewers that Obama was willing to chase the Sept. 11 terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden to the end of the earth, and he quoted Romney as essentially saying he wouldn't have done the same.

And it was up to Biden to take the shot Obama did not.

In one of the most memorable moments of the night, he brought up that Romney was videotaped saying that 47 percent of the American people see themselves as government-needy victims.

"These people are my mom and dad," Biden said.

In a ready response, Ryan did more than repeat the line from Romney that he actually cares about 100 percent of Americans. He turned Biden on Biden by telling the gaffe-prone vice president: "I think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way."

Obama had failed at his central mission of drawing distinctions with Romney in a crisp way that connected with people. The merits of competing tax plans or health care visions do not matter much if a debater meanders into the policy weeds or, even worse, fails to deliver a passionate fight. The president ended up doing both.

His aides look back at the first debate and see missed opportunities. Biden went the other direction, seizing any chance to jump on a Ryan inconsistency.

The danger for the aggressor is that both campaigns know the remaining undecided voters at home want answers for them, not partisan bickering.

Nationally, Romney got a clear national bump from his debate performance. But in the election-deciding battleground states that matter, most polls suggest the first presidential debate has not had a significant impact. Obama still holds an edge in Ohio, considered by both sides to be the keystone to the whole election.

Just as the Obama-Romney debate in Denver a week ago influenced what happened Thursday at Centre College in Danville, Ky., now the cycle spins ahead.

Romney and Obama will meet in New York on Tuesday in the midst of an election that is remarkably tight and, more than ever, a fight.

Comments

atiopatioo 1 year, 6 months ago

Finally, a poignant revelation at Biden's masterful reason for destroying Eddie.

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tbaker 1 year, 6 months ago

I don't think either man "won" the debate, at least not to the extent this is going to matter in the polls one way or another. Although Biden did provide plenty of reasons for people to question whether or not they want a guy like him to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency. Besides being rude he was also somewhat wierd and inappropriate. If he isn't making me laugh at his incompetence he is giving me the creeps.

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Benjamin Roberts 1 year, 6 months ago

One truthful moment of the debate:

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Constitutional_Malfeasance 1 year, 6 months ago

It's just amazing to me that some want other peoples money so badly, they with a clear head defend Obama/Biden to the bitter end. That class warfare rhetoric came just in the nick of time didn't it? After all, Obama does make people faint.

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Cait McKnelly 1 year, 6 months ago

Hahahahaha!
So Fox has now come out with the conspiracy theory that Biden was drunk during the debate. Which means that Paul Munster was schooled not just by an old man but a DRUNK old man.
"Find out what Grant drinks and send a barrel of it to each of my other generals!"
Abraham Lincoln - Upon hearing complaints that Gen. Ulysses S. Grant drank alcohol to excess.

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yourworstnightmare 1 year, 6 months ago

Eddie Munster was thoroughly schooled.

Particularly devastating were the letters that Ryan wrote to the administration begging for stimulus money to stimulate the economy in his district and then criticizing the stimulus.

Also devastating was Ryan criticizing the Obama policy in the middle east and then saying he agreed with the policy.

Biden for the win! Ryan = epic fail.

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SnakeFist 1 year, 6 months ago

I heard an interesting insight on the radio this afternoon: The side doing the most complaining probably lost. I'm hearing an awful lot of complaining from Ryan supporters.

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ljreader 1 year, 6 months ago

I wanted to puke when Biden used the death of his wife and kids to garnish sympathy.

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atiopatioo 1 year, 6 months ago

Why are so many women offended by Biden? Is he the typical guy?

The Obama campaign is struggling to respond to mounting criticism of Vice President Joe Biden's bizarre behavior during last night's debate with Rep. Paul Ryan. Biden not only interrupted Ryan frequently--82 times, according to Republican National Committee chair Reince Priebus--but frequently laughed, smirked, and snorted at serious moments, showing contempt for his opponent and disturbing even friendly observers.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3cc_1350057250

http://www2.ljworld.com/users/photos/... Friday, October 12, 2012

Biden Just Lost the Women's Vote

Mollie Hemingway "Tonight, Joe Biden is embodying everything that women hate about talking with men.... The truth is that we've all been there -- and that goes for women and men -- where you're having a conversation with someone awful. Maybe he's drunk. Maybe he's just a jerk or suffering from low self-esteem. But whatever the back story, the result is that he's condescending, thinks he knows far more than he does and interrupts you when you're making a point. It's not enjoyable."

http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2012/10/biden-just-lost-womens-vote.html

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Fred Whitehead Jr. 1 year, 6 months ago

They can debate all they want. Romney is a liar, jerk, flop-flopper, limbot, and generally a disaster waiting in the wings if the people if the U.S. elect him as president.

Ryan.....Eddie Munster?? Why do you hate Eddie Munster??

0

beatrice 1 year, 6 months ago

Seriously, good debate. Both presented their side well, neither probably won over too many undecided voters, and they showed passion for their views. Good for them. I think Biden won, but not by a huge margin. The main thing Biden did was give a jolt to Democrats who were not pleased with Obama's performance in the first debate. This helped to stop the bleeding.

Onward to the Presidential debate!

And how anyone can be undecided at this point is beyond me. Just saying.

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Centerville 1 year, 6 months ago

At least Biden knew enough to not use his old "I have the highest IQ in the room" line last night. Even that airhead running the debate would have hooted out loud.

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beatrice 1 year, 6 months ago

I liked how it began by the Republican asking, "Do you mind if I call you Joe?"

Oh, wait, that was Sarah Palin.

Nevermind.

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Flap Doodle 1 year, 6 months ago

Happy actual Columbus Day, everyone!

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jonas_opines 1 year, 6 months ago

"Say what you want about the Rep ticket's various wrong-headed, Tea Party pleasing poor stances on social issues. At least they have the guts to tell the truth on the debt & deficit."

Only when they're not in control of a branch or two of the government. Their debt/deficit rhetoric, much like their limited government rhetoric, becomes a pale shadow of itself when they have the helm of our government, and it certainly doesn't translate very well into actual action. The federal spending levels have risen under every president, for several decades now. As for deficits, there's only two presidents that have overseen anything other than Budget Deficits for their entire term. Clinton during the last years of his, and Bush in the first year of his.

http://www.supportingevidence.com/Government/fed_budget_over_time.html http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1929_2010USk_11s1li011lcn_G0f_Deficits_In_Inflation-adjusted_Dollars

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Windemere 1 year, 6 months ago

Watched all of it. Admit I have a strong distaste for people who interrupt others (stronger than average person), so Biden's rude, constant interruptions were outrageous to me. At least Ryan behaved in a civilized way, for the most part. Biden ought to be condemned for his behavior.

Say what you want about the Rep ticket's various wrong-headed, Tea Party pleasing poor stances on social issues. At least they have the guts to tell the truth on the debt & deficit. (at least more so than Pres). It is a moral failing to do as Obama and Dems want, not correct the over-spending.

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Liberty275 1 year, 6 months ago

I didn't watch it, but did Biden show up drunk?

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JonasGrumby 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden bullies a constituent in 1988:

This was slightly before he was forced to drop out because he committed plagiarism. Note that in addition to the bullying, Biden's falsehoods were also evident 24 years ago.

1

SageonPage 1 year, 6 months ago

Debating with Crazy Uncle Jo' is like one commentator said, being trapped at a bar next to a 'know-it-all' drunk. His buffoonery turned off the independents they need to win. He also was found to be a liar again, and we all knew he was already a plagiarist. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/cbs-and-msnbc-journalists-bidens-libya-security-answer-could-mean-big-trouble-for-obama/

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booyalab 1 year, 6 months ago

I will concede it was a tie on factors unrelated to truth. However, if the Democrats were smart they wouldn't let Biden speak.

good idiot

good idiot by booyalab

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WristTwister 1 year, 6 months ago

It seemed that Biden's plan was to disrupt and distract Ryan. I found Biden's antics quite annoying and unfortunately, he seemed to be successful in disrupting Ryan's message. Perhaps no one among our elected politicians is more knowledgable than Paul Ryan when it comes to economic policy. America was the loser in this debate as the moderator allowed Biden to interrupt at will. This effectively fragmented Ryan's answers and made it hard for viewers to follow Ryan's points.

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jonas_opines 1 year, 6 months ago

"I'm shocked, I say shocked at the comments here. It almost makes me think people went into this debate with their minds already made up and they saw what they wanted to see."

Nah, that never happens.

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mom_of_three 1 year, 6 months ago

From the CNN article, which differs from posts on here... "Biden was quick to interrupt Ryan, sometimes looking to the rafters or rolling his eyes as Ryan answered -- and occasionally laughed or smiled at the younger congressman's answers. Ryan, on the other hand, regularly smirked at Biden, shook his head from time to time and, at one point, chided Biden for the interruptions."

"Ryan and Biden spent 90 minutes trading punches. And while CNN's post-debate poll showed a slight edge for Ryan, the result was within the margin or error - meaning the event was effectively a draw."

1

Shardwurm 1 year, 6 months ago

Really doesn't matter. Barry is going to get walloped in November.

Anyone remember the mid-terms? Unless I'm missing something not much has improved since then.

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jaywalker 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden was a jackass and uttered "uh" at virtually every pause excepting his memorized openers or closers. His fill was like a bad sports interview. Ryan, more often that not, seemed like a catalog model making the transition into political commercials.
Thought the whole thing was underwhelming. Found the last responses amusing, considering the question posed was about being embarrassed about the prevalent, nasty tone of politics these days; neither jackass disappointed when they chose to display that very tone to sign off.

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Constitutional_Malfeasance 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden's constant attempts to make Ryan foolish only made Biden look foolish. This seems to be the predominant take on the debate.

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Centerville 1 year, 6 months ago

Have to hand it to Peggy Noonan on this one: "They are making the old man dance."

1

justfornow 1 year, 6 months ago

I found it frustrating that Biden interrupted Ryan 82 times!

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jhawkinsf 1 year, 6 months ago

Well known left leaning commentators say Biden won and well known right leaning commentators say Ryan won.

I'm shocked, I say shocked at the comments here. It almost makes me think people went into this debate with their minds already made up and they saw what they wanted to see. I say again, I'm shocked. :-)

1

labmonkey 1 year, 6 months ago

Everyone here knows I am pro-Romney, but I would actually have to give the edge to Biden last night. It had to do with managed expectations... Biden's were low and Ryan's were through the roof. I fully expected Ryan to hand Biden his lunch and he didn't do that... as a matter of fact, he barely held his own. Ryan, for the life of him, could not give a straight answer to a question... to the point where I was saying out loud "Answer The F***ing Question!!!" Biden was typical "Crazy Joe,", but there were some clear victories for him (Afghanistan for example). These debates are nothing more than performance pieces, and last night, I think Biden actually came out ahead as it was a bad night for both, but a worse night for Ryan.

4

Bob Forer 1 year, 6 months ago

The best moment was Joe catching the duplicitous lying Ryan slamming the stimulus program in the debate despite his prior pimping for stimulus funds on behalf of his wealthy constituents. I loved the way Joe smiled while losing his shoes up that weasel's rear end.

5

tbaker 1 year, 6 months ago

Team Obama needed not to lose this debate. The best they could hope for is avoid another gaff from the godfather of gaffs, and do no further harm to the campaign. By in large they didn't, thanks in large measure to the incredibly poor job of moderating Martha Raddatz did, and Ryan's unwillingness to throw the BS flag and more aggressively engage Mr. Biden.

I like Ryan, but he was timid. Binden delivered more effective answers on balance. But for his unsettling and often rude behavior, this would have been labeled as a close but solid win this morning. As it is, I don't think this is going to move the needle and reverse any of Romney's recent gains, but for team Obama's sake, it's not going to widen the growing spread in the polls anymore either.

1

donttreadonme 1 year, 6 months ago

All I know is I don't want that high school kid one heartbeat away from the Presidency.

He apparently knows little, just spouts well-rehearsed lines.

5

commonsenseanyone 1 year, 6 months ago

Cait48, if Biden took Ryan to the woodshed, which everyone with a clear mind would not agree with. Romney must have taken Obama past the woodshed, over the hill, through town and to the forest.

VP debates don't mean much, they never have. Ryan held his own but his style was much more calm and his voice wass a bit to monotone to get any kind of edge on Biden.

If Biden wasn't so busy showing his smarmy, I don't think my poo stinks side, he would have scored better. Although, after last week I can understand you liberals would grasp at anything to make yourselves feel better about the smack down in Denver.

4

atiopatioo 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden’s Top Five Lies & Exaggerations: Debate Night Edition

Number 2: Vice President Biden Falsely Claimed Obamacare “Saved $716 Billion” – But President Obama Cut Medicare To Pay For Obamacare:

Vice President Biden: “Let’s Talk About Medicare. What We Did Is We Saved $716 Billion And Put It Back — Applied It To Medicare.” (Vice President Joe Biden, Vice Presidential Debate, Danville, KY, 10/11/12)

According To The Nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, Obamacare Cuts $716 Billion From Medicare. (Congressional Budget Office, Letter To Speaker John Boehner, 7/24/12)

Obamacare’s Cuts Will Cause Enrollment In Medicare Advantage To “Plummet By About 50 Percent” And Leave Seniors With “Higher Out-Of-Pocket Costs.” “In addition to flagging provider cuts as potentially unsustainable, the report [HHS] projected that reductions in payments to private Medicare Advantage plans would trigger an exodus from the popular alternative. Enrollment would plummet by about 50 percent. Seniors leaving the private plans would still have health insurance under traditional Medicare, but many might face higher out-of-pocket costs.” (Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, “Report Says Health Care Will Cover More, Cost More,” The Associated Press, 4/23/10)

· The Medicare Trustees Project These Cuts Will Drive 4 Million Seniors Out Of Medicare Advantage Plans By 2018. (Medicare Trustees Report, 4/23/12)

52 Percent Of Doctors Say Obamacare Will Compel Them To Close Or Significantly Restrict Their Practices To Medicare Patients. (Merritt Hawkins, “Health Reform and the Decline of Physician Private Practice,” The Physicians Foundation, October 2010)

The Medicare Actuary Has Estimated 15% Of “Hospitals, Skilled Nursing Facilities, And Home Health Agencies” Will Be In The Red Before The Decade Is Over. “In the Office of the Actuary‘s April 22, 2010 memorandum on the estimated financial effects of the Affordable Care Act, we noted that by 2019 the update reductions would result in negative total facility margins for about 15 percent of hospitals, skilled nursing facilities, and home health agencies. This estimated percentage would continue to increase, reaching roughly 25 percent in 2030 and 40 percent by 2050. In practice, providers could not sustain continuing negative margins and, absent legislative changes, would have to withdraw from providing services to Medicare beneficiaries, merge with other provider groups, or shift substantial portions of Medicare costs to their non-Medicare, non-Medicaid payers.” (“Projected Expenditures Under An Illustrative Scenario With Alternative Payment Updates To Medicare Providers,” Center For Medicare & Medicaid Services, 5/13/11)

NUMBER 3: Vice President Biden Continued To Make False Claims About $6,400 In Higher Medicare Costs Under The Romney Plan:

. . . .

http://beachcarolina.com/2012/10/12/bidens-top-five-lies-exaggerations-debate-night-edition/

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cowboy 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden schooled Eddie Munster last night forcing the candidate to try to speak past the first talking point exposing the shallowness of of the Ryan Romney diatribe. Also exposing the true intent of the Romney approach. Privatize the Social Security program Voucher Medicare Dissolve Medicaid and hand it to the completely unpredictable states Cut education Give mongo tax breaks to the rich Eliminate middle class deductions

The republicans while trying to make hay from Benghazi in Issa's kangaroo hearings exposed a classified CIA base. Brilliant ! They should have had the same fervor looking into the failed oversight by the Bush admin in missing the 911 warnings , faked intelligence leading us into Iraq and the impact of 4400 soldiers KIA and over 33,000 wounded.

Yeah sure I'd be behind electing a duo who wants to eff over the majority of citizens , start another war in the middle east , return to failed financial policies , gets its direction from skygods , and wants to let panels of men determine what choices women have . NOT !

4

JonasGrumby 1 year, 6 months ago

Rachel Maddow just said on The Today Show that most Democrats feel that Joe Biden won. Well, duh.

In the real world, CNN found that 48% thought Ryan won to Biden's 44%.

The AP found that Ryan won 51% to Biden's 43%.

Biden's constant smirking and rude behavior also probably lost the debate for him among independent, especially independent women. Luntz found this with his panel of independents. My wife, who is a registered Democrats, found Biden creepy and unsettling. She likened his smirk to Jack Nicholson's Joker in Batman.

At best, Biden's performance did nothing to stop Romney's momentum. However, it's much more likely that Biden has increased Romney's momentum among independents.

3

SnakeFist 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden clearly won. He came accross as an experienced and capable adult, while Ryan seemed like a boy in comparison. Seriously, can you imagine Ryan being president if something were to happen to Romney?

Biden had some great zingers, especially showing Ryan's and the republican's hypocrisy in condemning the bailout while simultaneously requesting funds from it. And how many times can Ryan refuse to answer questions about his tax plan before he loses all credibility?

Having said that, Biden's win would have been bigger if he had limited the smiling and laughing, which came across as disrespectful at times. But at least he brought some emotion (Obama certainly didn't).

7

Flap Doodle 1 year, 6 months ago

Alternate realities from Biden: "..Vice President Joe Biden claimed that the administration wasn't aware of requests for more security in Libya before the Sept. 11 attacks on the U.S. mission in Benghazi during Thursday night's debate, contradicting two State Department officials and the former head of diplomatic security in Libya. "We weren't told they wanted more security. We did not know they wanted more security there," Biden said. In fact, two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests. "All of us at post were in sync that we wanted these resources," the top regional security officer in Libya over the summer, Eric Nordstrom, testified. "In those conversations, I was specifically told [by Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Charlene Lamb] ‘You cannot request an SST extension.' I determined I was told that because there would be too much political cost. We went ahead and requested it anyway."..." http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/10/11/biden_contradicts_state_department_on_benghazi_security

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Cait McKnelly 1 year, 6 months ago

Charlie Pierce gives a great analysis on Esquire's website.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/paul-ryan-debate-joe-biden-13626962

"The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch."

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Flap Doodle 1 year, 6 months ago

From the clips I've seen, it appeared that Biden had a gerbil in his Depends http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=P...

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Cait McKnelly 1 year, 6 months ago

What's the matter DIST? Feeling the sting this morning?

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Richard Heckler 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden did very well ANSWERING questions as Ryan rambled on many times in an effort to avoid revealing the Romney-Ryan positions.

"Biden was often rolling his eyes and smiling or laughing, as if Ryan's responses were beyond belief." Perhaps they were!

How many time did Paul Ryan not answer the questions ? Plenty

"Ryan chided his opponent at one point, "but I think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other." Romney did that plenty!

Romney/Ryan DO want to privatize medicare and social security which of course brings on ADDITIONAL OVERHEAD AND RISKS which nobody should want.

Paul Ryan said last night that should should be allowed to make more quicker investing in Wall Street which implies playing Wall Street is a sure bet which of course it is not.....absolutely not. If an investment-firm broker made this claim to his clients, he would be arrested and charged with stock fraud. Michael Milken went to jail for several years for making just this type of promise about financial investments. http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2010/0111orr.html

With corporations routinely defaulting on their pension promises, more and more workers must rely on their individual wealth to make up the difference. The stock market collapse at the turn of the millennium wiped out much of the financial wealth of middle class Americans, and the collapse of the housing bubble has wiped out much of their remaining wealth.

Making any cuts to Social Security now, either by raising the retirement age or cutting benefits, would have a huge impact on their remaining retirement income and are not necessary to “save the system.

Social Security does not contribute one dime to the deficit. In fact privatizing Social Security Insurance will add trillions to the debt and put the economy at further risk. http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2010/0111orr.html

Have elected officials which oppose Social Security Insurance lied to the public about Social Security Insurance? Absolutely! http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2010/0111orr.html

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Cait McKnelly 1 year, 6 months ago

Bill Maher: "911? I'd like to report an old man beating up a kid on my TV!"
Admit it. Eddie Munster got schooled.

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Mike Gerhardt 1 year, 6 months ago

Biden is like the loud mouthed drunk uncle at the family picnic. Everyone just ignores him and hopes he will go away.

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commonsenseanyone 1 year, 6 months ago

I think I would give the edge to Biden on this debate. Not for anything real specific, but it was clear Biden has a lot of experience due to the fact that he has been a career politician. Which to me, is a good reason not to vote obama/Biden.

However, any sort of positive reactions from his answers will be unfounded due to Biden looking like a complete condescending jerk by grinning and laughing throughout the night.

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