Archive for Saturday, March 17, 2012

Gun rebuttal

March 17, 2012

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My comments concern the article from March 10, “Gun bill advances with opt-out for colleges.” In the article Scott Rothschild offered comments from Rep. Valdenia Winn about not wanting to stand before a class in which some students were armed. She was quoted as saying they may have issues about grades or assignments. I believe there should have been some counterpoint to Rep. Winn’s comments to offset the obvious negative point she was making. Fair journalistic reporting would have shown all sides of this issue.

For example, the fact that concealed-carry holders must be 21 years of age eliminates most junior class students and ensures that track records of behavior in the university environment are known. Secondly all Kansas concealed-carry permit holders must pass background checks through the Kansas Bureau of Investigation, the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office and the FBI. Students passing these checks would be at least as vetted as the KU campus police. Students who have passed these checks and taken the training course are probably the most respectable and highly cleared people on campus, more so than most faculty members I would guess.

It seems to me that if these facts were reported along with the opposing opinions of Rep. Winn and Board of Regents CEO Andy Tompkins, the people reading the paper could draw a conclusion based on all the facts and less on emotional reactions. As it was reported I do not believe the average reader can develop an informed opinion.

Comments

Joe Hyde 3 years, 1 month ago

If anyone should be allowed to carry concealed firearms anywhere on a university campus it should be the professors, not the students. Tazers for custodial personnel, and white phosphorus grenades for M&O mechanics.

number3of5 3 years, 1 month ago

Guns don;t kill people, people with guns kill people. The more people with guns, the more people will get shot.......................................

Jim Phillips 3 years, 1 month ago

The only minor flaw in your statement is that statistics don't back it up.

grimpeur 3 years, 1 month ago

Pretty sure every gun murder in our nation's history was committed by a person with a gun.

jafs 3 years, 1 month ago

This is good information.

The only problem is that numerous changes which weaken cc regulations are/have been implemented in KS, and many seem to want them weakened even further.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 1 month ago

With the trend among NRA supporters now calling for removal of any and all restrictions on concealed carry, what reassurances would Mr. Wilson give if/when current restrictions are completely lifted?

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 1 month ago

None, I would imagine. A similar question: what assurances of safety will you give if restrictions remain the same? The NRA's position is consistent with those who believe the 2A is an absolute right. Rules and restrictions impinging on that right are - more or less - anti-2A. It is a pretty black and white view in much the same way access to abortion is either argued by some as a right or as a crime. In my opinion, the leap to an absolutist 2A view is much shorter than many other "rights" not outlined in the Bill of Rights.

Shelley Bock 3 years, 1 month ago

The 2nd Amendment says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Question #1. Why are rules and restrictions Impinging on that right not consistent with "a well 'regulated' Militia"?

Question #2. "Security of a free State" relates to external threats, not police functions within the State. Why isn't that related to the Army Reserve, the National Guard and other armed forces reserve components which come close to the concept of a militia and not the general public?

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

Why does security of a free State only apply to external threats?

Given the events at the time of the Bill of Rights, it would make sense that the founding fathers would recognize the importance of standing up against oppression by their own government.

I'm not saying that is the current situation in the United States, but I think the Second Amendment is important to maintain individual freedoms.

Shelley Bock 3 years, 1 month ago

Given that "security of a free State" could apply to such uprisings as the "Whiskey Rebellion" or other insurrections, it doesn't include what would be "police functions".

Isn't the National Guard controlled by the individual state?

Is the present "militia" well regulated?

I still wonder.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 1 month ago

So does that mean I should be able to have a concealed stinger missile in my algebra class? You know, just in case.

Jim Phillips 3 years, 1 month ago

Perhaps you should wait until someone commits a crime before you convict them.

Which means your obvious counter point would be something to the effect of stopping a crime before it occurs. And I really hope you don't offer up something that lame. Neither restrictions on CCH permits or any law will prevent someone from shooting anyone else if they choose to do so.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

However, It is very uncommon for someone to commit a murder without a prior history of crime. By age 21, an individuals behavior and ability to function is society is fairly well established. Meaning, that someone is who more likely to commit a murder has probably already committed some kind of offense that would make them ineligible for a permit. Obviously there are exceptions, but once you start punishing the vast majority of law abiding citizens for the actions of a few, our freedoms go down the drain quickly. A few people use their vehicles unresponsively, should people give up their cars.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

"irresponsibly"

Wow, that was a bad one; and I didn't add a question mark at the end either.

Peter Macfarlane 3 years, 1 month ago

That may be true, but remember that a career criminal or anybody who has broken the law has to start somewhere. I would just as soon they not be able start shooting students walking on Jayhawk Blvd indisicriminantly or faculty because a student became totally upset about a grade in a course or not passing a thesis defense or comprehensive.

Any armed individual has the potential to engage in killing as an impersonal act done at a distance.

The difference between an armed individual killing versus the driver who kills by running over or into somebody is clearly intent, most of the time.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

Okay, let's take a scenario that a student receives a bad grade in a class, and it upsets him/her enough to begin shooting people on campus.

Would you say that person is well-adjusted? What is the likelihood that that person had committed an earlier infraction. Let's say that person did not have a CC, what is to stop him from going home and getting a gun and carrying it to campus?

Many people who don't agree with concealed carry worry about an individual "snapping." Psychologically, "snapping" doesn't happen. There is usually a long history of issues leading up the event; often those can be seen in a person's criminal record, but sometimes there are personal issues that no one takes seriously before the event.

My point it, as easy as it is to say, "it could happen," the truth is, it doesn't happen. If an individual is unstable enough mentally to pull a gun and fire on innocent people, he 1) isn't going to stop because he doesn't have a license and 2) probably has a history of warning behavior that was not appropriately managed.

Peter Macfarlane 3 years, 1 month ago

When the graduate student at the University of Texas started shooting from the tower, he had been judged to be "normal".

Such a student may exhibit warning behavior, but given the state of our mental health care system in the US and on most campuses, I wouldn't put any faith in its being able to prevent tragedy.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

Whitman himself knew he was mentally unstable. He sought a therapist concerned about his mental health. A brain tumor was found during his autopsy, I'm not saying for sure if that had an effect, but this was out of nowhere. That doesn't sound "normal" to me.

I agree, our mental health system is poor and is deteriorating even more, but that shouldn't be an argument against concealed carry. Our health care system has problems, should we ban concerts and malls because it's too easy to spread germs there?

RoeDapple 3 years, 1 month ago

You choose to pre-judge all students/ccw holders because of the possible actions of maybe .003%? Please surrender your DL and discontinue driving as you are more of a menace to society.

FlintlockRifle 3 years, 1 month ago

Mr. Wilson good points, somebody in an above posting just didn't read about the age limit before you can apply and maybe pass a background check, and the cost is a little above the average collage joe allowance

SnakeFist 3 years, 1 month ago

Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people. Why should everyone be judged by the actions of the one country (the U.S.) that has used nuclear weapons in war? When nuclear weapons are illegal, only criminals will have nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are complex and expensive, surely anyone with the brains and money to build them will be responsible. In that light, Iran has a right to nuclear weapons.

What's the difference between guns and nuclear weapons? None, if you're the one who's killed by them.

Kendall Simmons 3 years, 1 month ago

Sounds just as logical as the arguments that many people make about guns!

classclown 3 years, 1 month ago

"Fair journalistic reporting would have shown all sides of this issue."

==================================================

That isn't Rothschild's style.

If everyone is so concerned that a student will shoot his teach or the entire campus, that speaks volumes about both the university of kansas and the type of student it attracts.

Perhaps if an exception was made that allowed anyone but athletes to carry. Those would be the "students" I would be worried about.

SnakeFist 3 years, 1 month ago

"If everyone is so concerned that a student will shoot his teach or the entire campus, that speaks volumes about both the university of kansas and the type of student it attracts."

But that goes both ways: If people feel the need to carry concealed weapons because they expect a shoot-out at any moment, that speaks volumes about our whole gun-crazy society. Frankly, I'm considering getting a concealed carry permit to protect myself against the gunfighter mentality of those who already have permits.

Terry Snell II 3 years, 1 month ago

Its easy to comment on issue's when you have only a opinion and not a real life experience. As I learned from a trip to Nasville, a robbery can happen in seconds. When a gun is in your chest you realize our country is no longer so innocent. I have carried concealed ever since. My concealed carry has prevented a possiable robbery at a Topeka ATM when approached by a dirt bag sticking his head in my window asking for money at 10pm at night(imagine if it was your wife and kids at ATM). When I pulled shirt up to expose weapon he fled. Now lets say your daughter calls from college saying she is being stalked by some guy. The cops cannot follow her everywhere. She is 21 and is in fear of her life. As she attempts to get a weapon she is put on hold for days waiting for clearence to buy the gun. Now if she survives to get the weapon she is forced to pay fee's and wait for Sheriff's department and Attorney General to process Concealed carry application up to 90 days. Now if she survives this wait and is walking to her car on campus and approached by a stalker with a gun, Option A She draws weapon and shoots this animal and protects herself and others. or Option B( No Concealed Carry) She screams while being shot and lays helpless dying from laws passed by people who thinks this world is peace and love. When trouble comes knocking at your door what option do you want available for your family.

Kendall Simmons 3 years, 1 month ago

Let me see if I got this right.

1) A mugger in Nashville pulled a gun on you.

He pointed it at your chest and demanded your money. Scared the living daylights out of you. You actually could have been shot. You actually could have been killed.

2) A guy in Topeka...who just as easily could have been a panhandler, not a robber...did NOT pull a gun on you.

Rather, he asked through your car window if you had some money you could spare. You showed him your gun. He left.

So...why on earth do you believe that your "concealed carry has prevented a possiable robbery"???????

I mean, if the guy in Topeka had been like the Nashville guy, he would have aimed his gun at you...and you would have been screwed. After all, your gun was still "concealed". It was in your waistband...doing you no good...while his would have been in his hand and would have been aimed right at you.

Do you honestly believe that you'd have been able to suddenly lift up your shirt with one hand, pull out the gun with the other (while you were sitting behind the steering wheel), and surprised an armed robber so badly that he would not have pulled the trigger and shot you? Or told you to keep your hands where he could see them and taken your gun from you?

Or that he'd have been "fooled" into thinking that your movements were merely an attempt to get your wallet from your...stomach???

Like it or not, even if you had had a concealed permit in Nashville and had been armed, your concealed gun wouldn't have done you a darned bit of good. You still would have been mugged. (And, like it or not, the same thing would have happened in Topeka had that guy been armed.)

Or do you seriously want to argue that you could have at least pulled your gun out after the fact? Told the guy to "stop or I'll shoot"? Shot him in the back? Oh yeah. That would have worked for you real well.

The fact is that "concealed weapons" tend only to make a person "feel" safer. Heck...having your gun sitting out in plain sight probably would have kept the Topeka guy from asking in the first place!!

And your hypothetical college student daughter? Do you realize that you're simply whining because she has to pay fees??? Because there's a waiting period to perform background checks to make sure that she isn't a danger herself??? Do you seriously think that concealed permits should be offered to anyone who simply claims it's an emergency???

And, again, the stalker approaches her with his gun aimed at her. Please, oh please, oh please, oh please...tell us all how she gets to pull her gun out of her concealed location before her stalker shoots her himself?

Terry Snell II 3 years, 1 month ago

Listen to this guy. At a ATM and from the passenger side of car a charley manson looking guy put his head through my window and he is just looking for change. Does any normal person enter a vehicle that way at 10pm at night, at a Atm of a vehicle he does not own. Oh yes, he is sticking up for the poor unemployed robber with a gun in my chest and a Topeka BLVD freak. Please tell this is not the majority opinion. This is why you must vote! If you dont think there are woman out there being stalked by ex boyfriends or some mentally ill nuts your wrong.

Kendall Simmons 3 years, 1 month ago

Excuse me??? No one "entered" your vehicle. Some guy leans over and, through your open passenger window, asks if you have any spare change.

I'm sure he spooked you out. Particularly after your Nashville experience. And I'm certainly not saying his behavior was appropriate.

But...for all your "prevented a possible robbery" and "dirt bag" and "charley manson looking guy" exaggerations...the fact remains that all he actually did was ask you for spare change.

I'm not sticking up for him. I'm simply saying that your Nashville and Topeka experiences are NOT comparable.

And of course there are women out there who are being stalked. But, if you go back and read your own words, your complaints were about the cost and time delays in getting a concealed carry permit.

I shouldn't have to point this out to you...but what on earth difference does it make how long it takes for her to get a CCP? Isn't the real issue how quickly she can simply buy a gun???

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 1 month ago

Because it's been nothing but wild west shootouts everywhere ever since Kansas passed the concealed carry law. Read about it in the paper every day. What have we done?!? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCSP8i...

Terry Snell II 3 years, 1 month ago

Someone help me out here. All I see are nut cases shooting people across the us everday the news is on. When and where did a lawful concealed carry holder start shooting innocent people like the wild west. If a unknown person is walking towards me in a threating manner all I have to do is reach at my side without displaying firearm. They seem to immediatly walk the other way. We are not talking normal society, dark parking lots,fishing by the homeless under north lawrence bridge, and ATm's. Thiefs know where to find easy victims. DONT BE A VICTIM, BE PREPARED. Concealed Carry holders will not live there lives in fear, Meet force with force. As for crazy Larry I wish you all the luck trying to talk a criminal into putting his gun down.

Kendall Simmons 3 years, 1 month ago

From what you're describing, it certainly sounds like you are behaving like the threatening person! That you are acting armed and dangerous!

No wonder people move away from you and walk in the other direction! Did that possibility truly not even cross your mind????

Frankly, it sounds to me like you've got some post-traumatic stress issues from the Nashville incident that you haven't resolved yet. Please! Talk to someone.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 1 month ago

Oops! I forgot denote my comment as sarcasm. I do apologize. FYI: I've had my concealed carry license ever since Kansas passed the law back in 2006. Have renewed it once already. I carry my Glock 27 every day, everywhere I go. Have a nice day! http://www.proguns.com/glock-27.asp

classclown 3 years, 1 month ago

SnakeFist (anonymous) replies…

If people feel the need to carry concealed weapons because they expect a shoot-out at any moment, that speaks volumes about our whole gun-crazy society. Frankly, I'm considering getting a concealed carry permit to protect myself against the gunfighter mentality of those who already have permits. March 17, 2012 at 11:05 a.m.

==================================================

To me that is a bogus argument that I constantly see from the anti gun crowd. People want to paint the ccp holder crowd as wanna-be Rambos or Matt Dillons looking to be the hero to shoot up the rampaging shooter and ride off into the sunset.

In actuality, the ccp holder is concerned for his/her safety as well as the safety of his/her family. The person with a permit knows full well that (s)he is more likely to encounter a mugger or someone else in a more personal one on one type scenario than coming across someone shooting up a mall or campus.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone that wants that extra sense of security knowing that they are that much more prepared to defend them self either off or on campus from being a victim of crime. Which is more likely to happen with a student carrying a concealed weapon than tripping over a bad grade and shooting up his class would be.

David Reynolds 3 years, 1 month ago

Dean, you have struck on one of the many reasons the newspaper business is the fastest shrinking business/industry in the US.

Their total lack of objectivity & honesty has been their undoing for years.

The only problem is the blogosphere isn't any better. This is why people seeking better find it selectively on line from non-traditional sources.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

I would say the shrinking of the newspaper industry has more to do with their inability to keep pace with the speed of internet news. Good journalism gets traded for fast journalism.

Flap Doodle 3 years, 1 month ago

Increasingly, fast journalism is copy/pasting from another source. (from a source)

Kendall Simmons 3 years, 1 month ago

And I seriously doubt that students carrying legally concealed weapons is going to make us any safer.

It's so easy to fantasize about shoulda/woulda/couldas. Doesn't make it real.

Heck, remember all those CCP holders who brought down Jared Loughner in Arizona? Not a single one of them used the concealed weapons on their persons.

RoeDapple 3 years, 1 month ago

Nobody I know of who carries concealed is there to protect you. If you can't protect yourself or don't feel the effort is worth it then fine.

And how many CCW holders were present when Loughner opened fire? Name one. If there were any present they may not have been in a position to do anything about it without endangering others. Isn't that part of your argument against CCW ?

xclusive85 3 years, 1 month ago

So, even in a very dangerous situation they didn't make it worse and start shooting innocent people? Isn't that one of the arguments made by the anti CCP crowd? That in a stressful situation they wouldn't be able to hit what they were shooting at? Well, those CCP holders didn't do that.

On the other hadn, you show that CCP holders won't necessarially stop a crime in progress either. Seems to me like nothing really changed in that situation because of CCP, did it?

Terry Snell II 3 years, 1 month ago

Its easy to comment on issue's when you have only a opinion and not a real life experience. As I learned from a trip to Nasville, a robbery can happen in seconds. When a gun is in your chest you realize our country is no longer so innocent. I have carried concealed ever since. My concealed carry has prevented a possiable robbery at a Topeka ATM when approached by a dirt bag sticking his head in my window asking for money at 10pm at night(imagine if it was your wife and kids at ATM). When I pulled shirt up to expose weapon he fled. Now lets say your daughter calls from college saying she is being stalked by some guy. The cops cannot follow her everywhere. She is 21 and is in fear of her life. As she attempts to get a weapon she is put on hold for days waiting for clearence to buy the gun. Now if she survives to get the weapon she is forced to pay fee's and wait for Sheriff's department and Attorney General to process Concealed carry application up to 90 days. Now if she survives this wait and is walking to her car on campus and approached by a stalker with a gun, Option A She draws weapon and shoots this animal and protects herself and others. or Option B( No Concealed Carry) She screams while being shot and lays helpless dying from laws passed by people who thinks this world is peace and love. When trouble comes knocking at your door what option do you want available for your family

Corey Williams 3 years, 1 month ago

That post is just as boring and pointless as it was when you posted it earlier. If you're that worried about things, why do you leave your house?

tomatogrower 3 years, 1 month ago

Well they left it up to the Universities to decide, and they will make the decision, and it's really none of anyone else's business now at this point, unless you have students at that university or you work there.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

Or you are a student at a Kansas University.

costello 3 years, 1 month ago

"I believe there should have been some counterpoint to Rep. Winn’s comments to offset the obvious negative point she was making. Fair journalistic reporting would have shown all sides of this issue."

The original article appears to be a report of a debate in the legislature about proposed legislation. Presumably the reporter is neutral on the issue - at least for the purposes of reporting what happened. I'm not sure why the author of this LTE thinks the reporter should have added information to rebut the views of particular legislators. Isn't that the job of the other legislators present at the meeting? If they had raised the points in this LTE, those points would have been included in the article.

The point of this article isn't to present all of the facts on both sides of the issue. The point is to report the discussion at a meeting. Some background information might be useful. But I don't think the fact that the reporter failed to rebut the points made by one of the three legislators quoted means the story is slanted.

If the reporter had rebutted Rep. Winn's statement, then would he have also had to provide the rebuttal to Rep. Knox's assertion that "[c]riminals pay attention because they know there won't be any law-abiding citizens carrying guns in those buildings that are posted" (which I personally find as absurd as Rep. Winn's concern that a student is going to shoot her because they don't like their grade) or Rep. Mah's statement that the state shouldn't tell local governments what to do? Shouldn't all that be fully debated too?

Kendall Simmons 3 years, 1 month ago

No kidding. Apparently Wilson doesn't understand how factual reporting works.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 1 month ago

I don't think concealed carry has any obligation to prove that it makes society safer. There is no evidence and even evidence to the contrary that CC makes the world more dangerous. There are plenty of people who say it does, but that's not based on any facts.

So if you believe CC'ers are living in a fantasy world where they won't be able to protect themselves, so be it, that's fine. Since we present no harm to you, mind your own business.

I make no fantasy that I'm going to be able to draw a firearm and put down an attacker if he already has a firearm pointed at me. Obviously, every situation is different, and that judgment will be made at the time. If it's more dangerous for me to draw my firearm, I won't do it. As for the Arizona shooting, a concealed carrier did approach the scene after he heard the shooting. He arrived shortly after the bystanders had wrestled the shooter to the ground. He rightly assessed that the man holding the gun was not the threat and didn't fire. No, he didn't save any lives, but he wasn't a maniac looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

Concealed Carry is not about shooting every person you see doing something wrong. Concealed Carry is about having a tool to use when all other options are gone.

asixbury 3 years, 1 month ago

Maybe everyone should have one free kill in their lifetime. Then people would treat each other with more respect, not knowing if that person used theirs or not.

Of course I'm not being serious, but it's an idea.

tbaker 3 years, 1 month ago

I guess having spent most of my life carrying a gun and being surrounded by everyone I worked with also carrying guns as a part of my daily life has biased me to the point where I fail to see what the issue is. Opponents of concealed carry often express their fear of increased gun-related crime as a result, and people in favor of CC point to the reduction in crime supposedly caused by increased CC in a given state, etc. Neither argument is supported by statistics which show no appreciable effect on the incidence of crime with or without CC. The bottom line is when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Government cannot guarantee the safety of its citizens. Protecting oneself and family is a personal duty and the government should not impede the ability of responsible adults to defend themselves.

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