Archive for Thursday, August 11, 2011

Town Talk: Peking Taste to move to 23rd and Louisiana; Mirth Cafe has new owners; city rolls out hybrid buses; lane changes at Kasold construction; chamber may not conduct national search

August 11, 2011

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News and notes from around town:

• I had heard that a few people were interested in the future of Peking Taste, the longtime Chinese restaurant near 23rd and Iowa that featured a buffet so large and so inexpensive that … you fill in the blank below. (Why do I always have to come up with this stuff?) Indeed the restaurant has closed, but speculation that it will reopen in a new location also is correct. Through ancient Chinese methods, I have learned that the restaurant will move into the former Scarlet Orchid location in the Louisiana Purchase shopping center at 23rd and Louisiana streets. (OK, perhaps how I found out is I let the phone ring a really long time at the Peking Taste location, and an answering machine finally picked up and provided news of its pending move.) According to the message, the restaurant is expected to reopen in September. There had been some speculation by the bloggers below that any new location would be carry-out and delivery only. I’ve put a call into the man listed as the owner of Peking Taste to inquire about that and other issues, but I haven’t heard back. The Scarlet Orchid space is pretty decent size, so I would be surprised if it didn’t include a buffet. But what do I know? Trust me, Chinese buffets have surprised me before.

• In other restaurant news, the Mirth Cafe at 745 N.H. has new owners. Former Mirth general manager Ron Zahorik and two partners — Lena Howlett and Alan Brownlow — have bought the restaurant/coffee shop from the former ownership group led by Rob Wilson. Zahorik said he’s not planning any major changes to the restaurant currently. He said a renovation is underway in the east dining room to add some new booths and improve the look of the area. But as far as the menu goes, it will remain largely unchanged, with a heavy emphasis on breakfast and specials that take advantage of locally grown produce. In the future, Zahorik said the restaurant may develop a new dinner menu. Currently the restaurant stays open until 10 p.m. but stops serving food at 8 p.m.

Zahorik has been in the restaurant business for about 15 years, but this is the first establishment that he has owned.

“I’ve been doing this work most of my life, so when this opportunity came along I felt I had to take it,” Zahorik said.

• While you are out and about today in Lawrence, you may very well see a first of its kind in Kansas. The city’s public transit system today is beginning to use three new hybrid electric diesel buses. The roll-out marks the first time hybrid buses have been used by a public transit system in the state of Kansas. The 40-foot buses will both look and sound different. The hybrid technology is similar to that on hybrid passenger cars. During low speeds on flat ground, the buses normally will operate only off battery power. That will mean riders and passersby won’t hear the rumble of a diesel engine, but rather a hum more similar to a supercharged golf cart.

A new hybrid diesel-electric bus that is a new addition to the city's public transit fleet.

A new hybrid diesel-electric bus that is a new addition to the city's public transit fleet.

The diesel engine — which will be a lower emission model than older diesels — will kick in on hills, higher speeds, or when the batteries are running low. The bus will look a bit different because the batteries are stored in a compartment on the bus’ roof. The batteries are charged by the diesel engine and also from energy built up by braking.

The buses cost about $600,000 apiece — or about $250,000 more than a standard bus. But the city was able to make the numbers work because it had received $1.8 million in federal stimulus funds that could be used to cover the purchase. The city ordered the buses in late 2009, and city officials said at that time they expected the buses would have lower operating costs than standard diesel buses. Look for the buses to mainly be used on Route 11, which is the large route that serves downtown, the KU campus and the 31st and Iowa street area. The buses replace three models that have been in service since 2001.

• Motorists also should be on the lookout near the Clinton Parkway and Kasold Drive area today. There will be a change in the traffic pattern near that intersection. The eastbound traffic on Clinton Parkway will be limited to one lane, beginning today. The lane reduction is to give construction crews more room to work on rebuilding the intersection. I'm checking on how long the lane reduction is expected to last, but I believe the intersection work will take about two weeks. As motorists are well aware, the entire stretch of Kasold from Clinton Parkway to about 31st Street is being rebuilt. That project is slated for completion in the late fall.

• As we reported yesterday, Hank Booth has been named as the interim leader of the Lawrence Chamber of Commerce. He'll guide the transition as Tom Kern leaves the CEO and president's role to take a similar job in Steamboat Springs, Colo. What usually comes after one of these announcements is that a national search for a new leader has started. But that's not the case here. Cindy Yulich, chair of the chamber's board of directors, told me the group wants to have a conversation about whether a national search is the best way to go to fill this position. She said there has been some sentiment that it might be better to focus the search on people who have some ties to Lawrence. That stems from concern that the turnover rate of the chamber's top position has been fairly high in the last decade. Somebody with some Lawrence ties might provide the chamber with the stability in leadership it has been seeking.

It will be interesting to see how much emphasis the board places on the new leader having chamber experience. If the board looks for a leader in general rather than a chamber leader that would seem to open up the field to quite a few local folks. This is complete speculation here, but would the position be attractive to local bank presidents who may be looking to get out of that industry, or KU leaders who could better tap the community into the growing research industry in town, or former elected leaders who understand how the political process works in the community? Again, all just speculation, but I believe the chamber board will start having discussions next week about what type of candidates it wants to attract. Booth already has said he won't be a candidate for the position. Yulich had no timeline for when the position might be filled.

Comments

cheeseburger 3 years, 9 months ago

The buses cost about $600,000 apiece — or about $250,000 more than a standard bus. But the city was able to make the numbers work because it had received $1.8 million in federal stimulus funds that could be used to cover the purchase.

Uh, yeah - more creative 'green' accounting.

BitterClinger 3 years, 9 months ago

More of my hard earned money going for something stupid. So do they charge the batteries using solar power? My guess is no. So much for 'energy' savings.

frittata65 3 years, 9 months ago

my prius don't have to be plugged in, it recharges the battery using the enregy normally wasted from the brakes being engaged.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

$1.8 million-- about the price of one cruise missile, which does nothing good for anyone.

Flap Doodle 3 years, 9 months ago

Blows bad guys to Gehenna. That's a plus for us.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

According to previous article the Hybrids get approximately 8 MPG (7-9MPG) and the old buses get 5 MPG. http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2009/dec...

With diesel fuel currently selling at approximately $4 /gallon the Hybrids fuel cost per mile is $.50 versus $.80 for the old buses for a savings of $.30 per mile. http://www.kansasgasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D&area=Lawrence&dl=Y&intro=Y

Old Bus = $4 / gallon X 1 gallon / 5 miles = $0.80 / mile Hybrid Bus = $4 / gallon X 1 gallon / 8 miles = $0.50 / mile

Given the Hybrids cost an additional $250,000 each new bus will break even in 833,333.33 miles, assuming the maintenance costs for the batteries and the other electrical/mechanical hardware of the Hybrids have no increased costs associated with them.

$250,000 / $0.30 per mile = 833,333.33 miles

In other words each bus will have to drive a round trip to moon (451,244 round trip miles to the moon at the perigee) and 85% a second time just to break even.

833,333.33 miles / 451,244 miles = 1.85 round trips to the moon

Assuming the buses operate 8 hours a day and can average 35 MPH (catch all the lights and don't have to stop to pick up passengers) it will take just over eight years to break even.

833,333.33 miles / 35 MPH = 23,810 hours 23,810 hours / 8 hours per day = 2,976 days 2,976.25 days / 365.25 average days per year = 8.15 year

Given the economics of these new Hybrids I would have felt safe in assuming that these new buses are made by the Hybrid bus division of Government Motors, except there are no known examples of a GM product that have driven that far.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

Did you read the part about these being the first hybrid buses in Kansas? And I would guess they are among the few hybrid buses in regular service anywhere.

Somebody has to be the first at putting new technologies into use, and prices on new technologies generally drop rather quickly. Given that hybrid technologies are particularly appropriate for large vehicles doing stop and go urban driving, this was a very appropriate use of stimulus dollars-- an investment that will have considerable payback over the next couple of decades.

But such considerations clearly have no place in your narrowly focused, black-and-white exercise in ideological arithmetic.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 9 months ago

Please explain to me how math is ideological? Ideology - and derivatives of that word - seem to be your new buzz phrase. Yawn.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 9 months ago

I didn't expect you to be able to explain something as irrational as your post, but thanks for confirming it. You are becoming even more insulting than usual. Did your AC go out? I realize that you don't have much substance to most of your posts and thus you rely upon lame personal insults and tired catchphrases but it seems you've become qualitatively more stupid lately.

livinginlawrence 3 years, 9 months ago

"That makes perfect sense. It seems you've been angrier than usual lately. Worried about how you are going to get to the SRS office?"

You, "Glock owner," are posting tripe such as this and yet somehow still have the gall to sit here and nag another poster, accusing him of contributing nothing but substance-less "insults and tired catchphrases"?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

BTW, the current buses that are being retired have over 600,000 miles on them. So it's quite possible that the new ones will reach the break even point you calculated.

jhawkinsf 3 years, 9 months ago

You forgot to calculate the cost to clean the environment with the buses that use fuel only.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

Here's a quantification for you-- just don't breathe for the next 5 minutes, and see how that works for you.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 9 months ago

That makes perfect sense. It seems you've been angrier than usual lately. Worried about how you are going to get to the SRS office?

parrothead8 3 years, 9 months ago

Why should he? You're the one who wants the figures. Do your own work.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 9 months ago

Cool, I will remember that when I am asked to produce facts. For example, I contend that these new vehicles will be more harmful to the environment and that blowzo is a racist.

impska 3 years, 9 months ago

The 8mpg figure is essentially meaningless, unfortunately, as we don't know what other cities have reported that, how many, or if they have more hills than Lawrence.

What's more, the article in fact said the range was 7-9mpg, and I'll note you took the mid number, but it is highly likely that since this is Kansas and we have a flatter landscape than most, we'll approach the higher number, 9mpg, in which case the buses break even at 568,181 miles.

Since our current buses are being retired at 600k miles, we would more than break even on the full cost of the bus.

But we can't know the true value of this kind of hybrid technology unless many cities use it and test it and share data on it. With that data, cities can assess whether investing in these kinds of buses is right for them. If companies sell enough buses, they have the incentive to improve the technology, and as we can see from the math, a small improvement to 9-10mpg would make these buses an excellent investment. Thus, this seems like exactly the sort of thing the government should be providing money for: probable long term benefit to the city, data regarding a new technology, and encouragement for technological innovation.

3 years, 9 months ago

"...assuming the maintenance costs for the batteries and the other electrical/mechanical hardware of the Hybrids have no increased costs associated with them."

The batteries on the bus will need to be replaced in approximately 8-10 years maybe a little more, as is the same with all hybrid cars.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) replies… "$1.8 million-- about the price of one cruise missile, which does nothing good for anyone."

Just be thankful the US government doesn't dictate fuel efficiency standards or mandate we only use Hybrid Cruise Missiles or else they would be $3.6 million a piece.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 9 months ago

Was the cruise missile hyperbole the best with which you could come up?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

What's hyperbolic about it? We waste literally $billion every year just blow crap and people up, and yet there are those who will whine about a rather paltry expenditure that will benefit thousands of people for at least the next ten years.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) replies… "But such considerations clearly have no place in your narrowly focused, black-and-white exercise in ideological arithmetic."

Never heard of arithmetic being ideological, but then again I am not a math major. Were there there capitalist or marxist math courses that I missed at KU? That would explain how the US is composed 57 states. Must be some new math being taught at Harvard.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

The arithmetic exercise was clearly ideologically driven. I know you believe that if you can't afford to own and operate your own SUV, you should just stay off the streets altogether, but it ain't gonna happen.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 9 months ago

It's the People's Math for Proles, man. Bozo and Merrill team teach it at the continuing ed center.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) replies… "BTW, the current buses that are being retired have over 600,000 miles on them. So it's quite possible that the new ones will reach the break even point you calculated."

And maybe the New Hybrids have a 1,000,000 mile "bumper-to-bumper" warranty that covers all the new 1st generation batteries and the new electrical/mechanical components needed to save a whopping 30 cents per mile, but I wouldn't bet whats left of your 401(k) or retirement fund on either possibility.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

jhawkinsf (anonymous) replies… "You forgot to calculate the cost to clean the environment with the buses that use fuel only."

That is because no environmental emissions figures for the two types of buses were presented in any article I could find. I also didn't count the costs to the environment of mining the heavy metals used in the batteries, the coal powered energy to manufacture those batteries, the useful life of the batteries, or the additional economic/environmental costs of disposing of those batteries such that the heavy metals don't end up leaching into the ground water.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

But in your world, all that stuff is completely benign, isn't it? Why would you calculate it?

Jean Robart 3 years, 9 months ago

What about the stinky diesel exhaust? Will we get THAT from these busses too?

Hoots 3 years, 9 months ago

There is no smell associated with these buses as they also use a clean technology that scrubs emissions in the exhaust. Many of the buses KU operates currently are over 20 years old. The Gillig buses they use are very durable machines. These new buses will operate 14 hours a day on a route that has heavy ridership. Many times a day the buses on this route have 70-80 people on them at a time. This route has three buses on it at peak and carries hundreds of riders per hour. KU On Wheels and the T combined moved over 2.7 million passengers last year making it the largest transit system in the state. In addition the KU Safe Bus and Safe Ride programs kept tens pf thousands of intoxicated students off your streets.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

impska (Sarah Stratton) replies… "The 8mpg figure is essentially meaningless, unfortunately, as we don't know what other cities have reported that, how many, or if they have more hills than Lawrence."

Correct, but since we don't know anything about the other cities use (flatness, wind, number of riders, weight of riders, etc) why would you use the most efficient MPG reported number? Isn't it possible that those communities who purchased the new hybrids have an incentive to fudge the numbers to the high side? I used the average reported (not the high nor the low) as to not slant either way.

impska (Sarah Stratton) replies… "Since our current buses are being retired at 600k miles, we would more than break even on the full cost of the bus."

Maybe, but that also ignores the additional maintenance costs for the batteries and the electrical/mechanical components (ie electric motor). I wonder if those components will even last one round trip to the moon without replacement.

parrothead8 3 years, 9 months ago

Why would the communities who already purchased the buses have an incentive to fudge the numbers to the high side? Usually it's the manufacturer who has an incentive to fudge their mileage numbers to the high side...not the purchaser. The purchaser usually looks for a way to get a better deal, and so it would seem to make more sense for them to claim a lower number.

Ignoring additional maintenance costs? Why would there be any additional maintenance costs in a hybrid vehicle over a gas-powered? Fewer moving parts, less oil and fuel being used (which means less money spent on foreign oil), fewer oil changes. I think that more than offsets the occasional calibration of electrical components. If you don't believe me, ask one of your neighbors who drives a hybrid.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

Hoots (anonymous) says… "There is no smell associated with these buses as they also use a clean technology that scrubs emissions in the exhaust."

True enough, but that is also true of the new diesel buses that cost $250,000 less than the Hybrid's we bought. But the more interesting question is, why did we not eliminate the diesel engines, batteries, and electric motor and go straight to energy source that is far cleaner and in abundance in North America, and Kansas in particular, and already being used globally, Compressed Natural Gas (CNG)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compress...

Further, there is a Natural Gas Pipeline that runs very close to Lawrence already. http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_gas/analysis_publications/ngpipeline/ngpipelines_map.html

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

Ever heard of tracking? It's an environmental disaster in the making. But it's the darling of conservative land, so you can't look at it in a critical way, can you?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

I hate this new spell checker. That should have been "fracking," not tracking.

LogicMan 3 years, 9 months ago

I was, by chance way back, following behind the similar JoCo bus that was making test runs for Lawrence. It did have a distinct, unpleasant odor different from other cars and trucks, which is why I noticed it. Also it was huge and had an ugly paint job.

Richard Heckler 3 years, 9 months ago

Cleaner travel works against global warming which is one of the primary objectives. In fact I celebrate the cleaner and fiscal responsible decision.

Thank You City Hall.

The new colors on the on the newer purchases are quite pleasing. Frankly purchasing some smaller vehicles was smart spending as well. Some Lawrence intersections are simply not friendly to larger bodies.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 9 months ago

Why don't you use it? Why do you use gasoline powered mowers that pollute our environment. Hypocrite.

lawrencian 3 years, 9 months ago

The city did a study on fuel options before choosing these buses, and the problem with CNG is that there is no CNG station here, and that costs a lot of money to build, too!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 9 months ago

Facts, schmacts-- they just get in the way of ideological rants.

Flap Doodle 3 years, 9 months ago

A regular diesel bus is kinder to the environment than an internal combustion 2-stroke lawn mower.

EJ Mulligan 3 years, 9 months ago

I hope the new ownership is good news for Mirth -- I have stopped going there because the service was abominable. I will give it another chance now and hope the owners will be hands-on in supervising operations.

pizzapete 3 years, 9 months ago

Agreed, the bad service I had was all I could think about when I read this article. I'll give them another chance though, now that it's under new ownership.

scopi_guy 3 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for the info on PT. I drove by yesterday and saw the empty building (no sign or anything left). Even if they are just takeout and delivery (I hope not), good news to me.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) replies…

"Ever heard of fracking? It's an environmental disaster in the making. But it's the darling of conservative land, so you can't look at it in a critical way, can you?"

Just saying it is a environmental disaster in the making is hardly thinking in a critical way.

Fracking has occurred naturally for millenniums. Using natural gas, including man initiated fracking, as an alternative was the subject of a MIT which stated "The environmental impacts of shale development are challenging but manageable. Shale development requires large-scale fracturing of the shale formation to induce economic production rates. There has been concern that these fractures can also penetrate shallow freshwater zones and contaminate them with fracturing fluid, but there is no evidence that this is occurring. There is, however, evidence of natural gas migration into freshwater zones in some areas, most likely as a result of substandard well completion practices by a few operators." MIT Energy Initiative (2011), "The Future of Natural Gas: An Interdisciplinary MIT Study". http://web.mit.edu/mitei/research/studies/documents/natural-gas-2011/NaturalGas_Chapter%201_Context.pdf

That critical enough for you?

All forms of energy have a negative environmental impacts. Ever hear of lead battery toxicity? How about nickel-hydride batteries thought to be better for the environment but must be mined either from open pits or underground mines in a way that cause further environmental degradation. Or copper windings in electric motors that also must mined in a similar method as nickel with the same environmental impact? How about the electric components that require high-voltage wiring. If the wires are exposed in a crash emergency personnel or other individuals at the crash site, like passengers, may be at risk of electrocution.

pizzapete 3 years, 9 months ago

We've been naturally dumping hundred of thousand of gallons of unknown pollutants deep into the ground for thousands of years? I don't think so dude.

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

lawrencian (anonymous) says… "The city did a study on fuel options before choosing these buses, and the problem with CNG is that there is no CNG station here, and that costs a lot of money to build, too!"

Since when has the City of Lawrence ever let taxpayer dollars get in the way? Sure the station by itself for one or three vehicles would be prohibitively expensive, but how many vehicles does the City of Lawrence operate?

The US has an expanding fleet of 112,000 NGVs, nearly all CNG, mostly buses but also some government fleet cars and vans, as well as increasing number of corporate trucks replacing diesel versions, most notably Waste Management, Inc and UPS trucks. With some 1000 refueling stations in operation as of December 2010, in terms of number of NGV stations, it is 7th in the world, but in terms of CNG stations it is ranked among the top 3 countries worldwide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_...

There are CNG stations in Overland Park and Topeka. Why are we always lagging behind Shawnee and Johnson counties in our environmental efforts? http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/CNG/Missouri/

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

lawrencian (anonymous) says… "The city did a study on fuel options before choosing these buses, and the problem with CNG is that there is no CNG station here, and that costs a lot of money to build, too!"

Looks to me that with LNG already available a CNG station would cost less than $50,000. With fast fill being the most expensive and overnight fill being the least expensive. The primary components of a CNG station are, one or more gas compressors, a gas dryer, time-fill fueling post assemblies, and might include a series of CNG fuel storage tanks and or a fast-fill island type dispenser with a credit card reader to activate fueling. The compressors take low line pressure gas from the main, compresses it up to high pressure and dispense it into CNG vehicles via time-fill or fast-fill fueling methods.

There is one company that will build them for $0 as long as you buy your service agreement from them. CNG Gas Group will build a complete CNG fueling station in exchange of a long term contract including maintenance and system upgrades to cover growing needs http://www.cngasusa.com/

This is no fly-by-night operation either, their stations are safely fueling over 235,000 CNG vehicles daily, at over 800 locations worldwide.

So when you say Lawrence studied CNG but decided the fueling stations "cost a lot of money" can you wrap some specific numbers around that? Did they take into account that CNG to diesel equivalent was about 50% less expensive per gallon?

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

lawrencian (anonymous) says… "The city did a study on fuel options before choosing these buses, and the problem with CNG is that there is no CNG station here, and that costs a lot of money to build, too!"

Do you have a link to that study? Wat it ever made public or peer reviewed?

Ron Holzwarth 3 years, 9 months ago

Seems no one remembered this: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2011/jun...

"As we reported earlier this week, plans are in the works for a major expansion of the Zarco convenience store at Ninth and Iowa streets. Once completed, the project may give you the chance to fuel up your vehicle for $1.50 per gallon. No, the plans don’t include a time machine. But at the moment, they do include Lawrence’s first retail Compressed Natural Gas fueling station."

But the question is, will they continue to sell CNG?

Sigmund 3 years, 9 months ago

pizzapete (anonymous) replies… "We've been naturally dumping hundred of thousand of gallons of unknown pollutants deep into the ground for thousands of years? I don't think so dude."

Fracturing of shale beds occurs naturally and has for a very long time. Hydraulic fractures may be natural OR created by human activity, and are extended by internal fluid pressure which opens the fracture and causes it to extend through the rock. Natural hydraulic fractures include igneous dikes, sills and fracturing by ice as in frost weathering. Should we regulate what chemicals are used in human fracking of shale? Absolutely.

Hoots 3 years, 9 months ago

I agree with the CNG or LNG idea completely. I had to wonder why they went the direction they did. I have to wonder if it doesn't fall along the lines of it being a really big Prius. I think it goes to how Americans love complexity. CNG is relatively cheap and plentiful and it burns super clean. I don't think a CNG bus would have been sexy enough for the Green Police. Americans also haven't caught on to the fact that diesel cars in Europe blow a Prius away by over 20 mpg. The Ford Fiesta Econetic gets 76 mpg on the highway and 65 in the city. I drove a Peugot 305 diesel around for a week in Europe awhile back and saw 65 mpg average. This puts a Prius to shame and you don't have to come up with 10k extra to buy one. It also doesn't require the mining, manufacture, and eventual disposal of many toxic elements which comes at what environmental cost.. The fact that a Prius has all the added complexity of electric motors and batteries carries with it an extra carbon footprint that its buyer don't think about. The Prius outsells the Civic hybrid because it makes a statement by looking different so people can advertise they are being green and they're willing to pay a big premium to do so. The civic hybrid is a better deal but it looks like any other civic and doesn't say look at what I did. Hybrid technology isn't very green if you do all the math.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

You'd have to do a very thorough comparison of environmental costs of hybrids vs. other vehicles over their complete life span to determine which is more environmentally friendly.

it's a hard analysis to do, I think.

It would have to include all of the costs of manufacturing, operating, and disposal of parts, etc. at the end of their lifespan.

I haven't seen anything like that yet.

Phone_Man 3 years, 9 months ago

I love Gas and Diesel sucking ground shaking noise polluting V8 power. I own 5 V8 fossil fuel burning beauties and would love nothing more than to see the Hybrid clown cars banned from the WORLD forever. I also love to chop down trees to use in my Smoker all summer long and in the winter I chop down more trees to heat my house. I think tree huggers should be given their own state; say California. You can drive your Japanese Hybrid clown cars to your hearts content, eat granola, plant some trees and sing Kumbaya. I really don't care what you do just don't force your over priced fairy tale "green" beliefs or buses on me.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

I'd rather folks like you get their own state, and destroy the environment in it, without harming the rest of us.

Ok?

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