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Opinion

Opinion

Immigration questions to ponder

May 19, 2010

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Last week was been a bad one for those of us opposing Arizona’s anti-immigration law: New polls show that a huge majority of Americans support the legislation, and key candidates for November’s mid-term elections are now saying they want similar laws for their own states.

Three separate polls — from the Pew Research Center, The Wall Street Journal-NBC and McClatchy-Ipsos — show that about 60 percent of Americans support the Arizona law, which requires local police to question people about their immigration status when they have “reasonable suspicion” that they are not in the country legally.

There’s no question that the polls show a clear public sentiment that something has to be done to stop the steady flow of migrants. But I would like to ask six questions to supporters of the Arizona law, and to politicians who are considering similar legislation in 16 other states:

1: Are you aware that the Arizona law turns every Hispanic in Arizona, including U.S. citizens, into a potential suspect? Do you like the idea of police stopping members of the largest U.S. minority group because of the color of their skin, or their Spanish accent?

Granted, the Arizona law was recently amended to demand that police engage in the “lawful stop, detention or arrest” of people before inquiring about their immigration status. Supporters of the law say this means police can only stop people in connection with other crimes. But, in reality, “lawful stop” can mean many things, including stopping a person to ask whether they saw something suspicious around the corner.

2: Do you know that the stated reason for the Arizona law — a wave of crime brought about by undocumented migrants — is not backed by the state’s official statistics?

According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, violent crime in Arizona fell from 531 to 447 people per 100,000 inhabitants over the eight years ending in 2008. Nationwide, while the nation’s illegal-immigrant population doubled from 1994 to 2004, the violent-crime rate declined 35 percent, the Arizona Republic reported May 2.

3: Do you know that the Arizona Police Chiefs Association opposes the law, saying it will drain the state’s law enforcement resources? In addition, undocumented migrants will think twice before giving police tips on crimes or terrorist plots, or before they rescue somebody from a car accident, it says.

4: Are you aware that Los Angeles and several other U.S. cities have voted to boycott Arizona? Arizona’s tourism board said last week that the boycotts have cost the financially ailing state $90 million already. In addition, Arizona-like laws could cripple the tourism industry of the states that adopt them: Many of the estimated 16 million Latin Americans traveling to the United States every year may decide to skip places where they fear they will be stopped by police because they speak Spanish.

5: Do you know that the reason so many migrants enter the United States illegally is because they can’t get in legally? Under the dysfunctional current U.S. immigration system, the U.S. labor market employs up to 500,000 low-skilled workers a year, but the U.S. government only gives 5,000 permanent legal visas a year in that category.

6: Even if you support the Arizona law, is it worth turning the country into a quasi police state, making every member of its largest minority group a suspected criminal, and losing billions of dollars in legal costs and boycotts? Or would it make more sense to update the country’s immigration laws, creating an immigration system that welcomes legal immigrants and discourages illegal ones?

My opinion: I say the latter. Fortunately, I’m in good company: A New York Times/CBS News May 4 poll shows that while 51 percent of Americans support the Arizona law, 89 percent say the federal government needs to update existing immigration laws. Sixty-four percent say there should be a path to citizenship or temporary residency for the estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants already here.

There is a much better — and less traumatic — way to solve this problem than Arizona’s de facto racial profiling law: passing a comprehensive immigration law that secures the border, punishes employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers, provides a path to earned legalization for undocumented immigrants, and significantly increases the number of U.S. visas for workers the country needs.

— Andres Oppenheimer is a Latin America correspondent for the Miami Herald. aoppenheimer@miamiherald.com

Comments

SettingTheRecordStraight 4 years, 7 months ago

"Arizona’s anti-immigration law"

I don't know anyone who's "anti-immigration," Andres. In fact, we all have a goal of seeing legal immigration continue. You lose all credibility when you intentionally mischaracterize another group's views.

"...polls show a clear public sentiment that something has to be done to stop the steady flow of migrants. "

Again, those of us who support the rule of law are very welcoming of legal migrants.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"Obviously, Mr. Oppenheimer is an open borders and human rights zealot."

Are you opposed to human rights? If so, whose?

" Mr. Krentz was murdered on his Arizona ranch by an illegal immigrant he was trying to help."

So, if he had been murdered by a little old grandmother, would you favor deporting all little old grandmothers?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"I am not opposed to human rights. They need to be considered."

What's to consider? Either we all have them, or they aren't "human" rights, but rather special rights for whatever special group(s) you wish to single out.

"And do you believe the human rights of illegal aliens should take pecedence over the rights of Arizona citizens?"

No. Do you believe that these immigrants don't have the same human rights that you do? If not, that can only mean that you don't believe they are human.

"Do you not believe that murder, property damage, drug smuggling, and human trafficking perpetrated by illegal immigrants are not cause for concern?"

Such crimes are of concern, no matter who the perpetrators are. While smearing all so-called illegal immigrants as craven criminals may make your argument emotionally appealing, it's still logically and factually flawed.

"Please do not suggest open borders and amnesty. That will not work."

Really? What's the basis for your certainty?

"Our financial system cannot sustain the influx of millions who use services and pay little in return."

How much in services do they use? How do they get them? What should happen to the $billions "illegal" immigrants pay in taxes every year? Should they be refunded if and when they are deported?

"Your Grandmother question is absurd and not worthy of an answer."

No more absurd than your contention that the expulsion of immigrants, the vast majority of whom are not criminals, will somehow reduce the crime rate in any substantial way.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

If you're asking for a final solution, I don't have one.

Do you?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

And not even attempting to address the questions means that you either have on answers, and/or you are very uncomfortable about the slippery slope your answers put you on.

oldvet 4 years, 7 months ago

Michael... give it up... Trying to have an intelligent, fact-based conversation with bozo is like wrestling with a pig... you'll both get muddy but the pig loves it... And you won't have the true facts, either, since the bozo has access to top-secret classified documents that you can't get to...

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

Well, from now on, I'll follow your example, and just post fact-free ad hominem attacks, oldvet.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"Just trying to help you understand that life is about priorities and trade-offs."

Ah gee, I'm so verklemmt, knowing that I'm unworthy of you boundless wisdom.

"The Arizona immigration law is a cry for help."

No, it's barely concealed racism, nothing more, nothing less.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"Someone once told me"

It's also been said that you shouldn't believe everything you're told.

jhwk2008 4 years, 7 months ago

That's not true about Robert Krentz.

The Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever is investigating a person in the United States, not in Mexico, in connection with the shooting.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/border/article_35ef6e3a-5632-5e58-abe7-e7697ee2f0d5.html

georgiahawk 4 years, 7 months ago

Got news for you mikey, you have no evidence that it was illegal aliens either. Either they have arrested and charged an illegal alien or not. Which is it?

ivalueamerica 4 years, 7 months ago

I realize you are against Human Rights and the Constitution, but just because he has a latino surname, you presume he is for open borders.

That, by definition, makes you racist.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

You missed a couple of words in the first sentence. "Last week was been a bad one for those of us opposing Arizona’s anti-illegal alien law:" There, I fixed it for you.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

In other news: “The spat over Arizona's new immigration expanded Tuesday as a state official dared the city of Los Angeles to follow through on its new boycott by agreeing to give up the 25 percent of electricity that city gets from Arizona sources. In a letter to Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, Arizona Corporation Commissioner Gary Pierce said a boycott war is bad for both sides, and said he would "be happy to encourage Arizona utilities to renegotiate your power agreements" to end the electricity flowing to Los Angeles. "I am confident that Arizona's utilities would be happy to take those electrons off your hands," Mr. Pierce said. "If, however, you find that the City Council lacks the strength of its convictions to turn off the lights in Los Angeles and boycott Arizona power, please reconsider the wisdom of attempting to harm Arizona's economy."…” http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/18/arizona-dares-los-angeles-to-carry-out-boycott/

puddleglum 4 years, 7 months ago

oh boy! an electricity embargo! that would be awesome. In the meantime, throw all the illegals and their employers out of the US!

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

"The Arizona law is just pandering to the fearful by politicians up for re-election, and it dimishes us as a country." The Arizona law mirrors federal law.

tbaker 4 years, 7 months ago

The president will soon attend the commencement ceremony at Kalamazoo, Michigan. He plans to shake the hand of every graduate. In order to shake the hand of the President, the Secret Service requires some information from these school kids:

Full name, birth date, social security number, and citizenship status.

So where are the boycotts of Kalamazoo? Where is the outrage? On behalf of the President, the Secret Service is asking for more information from these kids than Arizona’s immigration law asks of illegal aliens

Wise up Oppenheimer. You're mouthpiece, not a journalist.

George Lippencott 4 years, 7 months ago

Why are we after the author?? He expressed an opinion. Attack it if you disagree with it (some did)

If we all agree that this needs to be fixed why are our leaders not listening?

Liberty275 4 years, 7 months ago

I can't understand why non-Arizonans are whining about Arizona law. If you don't like a state's laws, don't go there and you won't have to worry about them.

ralphralph 4 years, 7 months ago

I understand that many illegal aliens are here because they are desperate and because they consider a marginalized life in the shadows of America preferable to starving back home. I can sympathize with that, but cannot support it .... not because of the color of their skin, but because of what America was meant to be and should be: a place where all are free and equal.

Illegal immigrants live in a condition of economic slavery which cannot be abided. Just because they are desperate enough to accept it does not mean it should be allowed to continue. We must have a system where the new people who come here are treated as free and equal persons, not as cheap labor for Republicans or potential voters for Democrats.

If the law is broken, then you fix it, you don't ignore it.

Illegal immigrants are in the grips of a humanitarian crisis NOT because of Arizona trying to enforce the Federal law, but because of a broken Federal law that the entrenched special interests do not want fixed or enforced. May the actions of Arizona bring the focus and impetus needed to end the oppression of these persons on our soil.

tbaker 4 years, 7 months ago

Ralph - I like your thinkin.'

What ever happened to the empahsis once placed on citizenship? Why does it take 7-10 years to become a citizen when I can qualify for a home mortgage on-line in minutes? Since when is political hot-air a substitute for a law that makes sense? Of course we are asking the same bunch of idots who gave us a 66,000 page income tax code to reform immigration law.

Vote against all incumbants. Throw the bums out. Its our government. We need to take it back.

verity 4 years, 7 months ago

Thank you for a well-reasoned response.

I will go beyond that and say that we should put pressure on and help Mexico fix their problems. Most people would stay where they are with family and community if all other things are equal. When the choice is starvation for yourself and your family or perhaps making a better life for them, you do what you have to do.

As long as the economic conditions in Mexico are as they are, we are going to have a problem with illegal immigration.

Tony Kisner 4 years, 7 months ago

I love all of these new low wage workers. If I had to pay a real wage I would have never been able to put on the new roof. What Walmart has done for cheap imported t-shirts - illegal immigration has done for cheap labor here in the US for jobs you just can’t ship over to India. It is better than slavery because you don’t need to feed them and they will run over each other to work for one half of the minimum wage. By not using our influence to clean up corruption and other conditions which makes “developed” countries like our southern neighbor really just another third world nation we can keep our nicely mowed lawns and sleep in our child-labor made hammocks as well.

tbaker 4 years, 7 months ago

Count me in cuz. Its a shame I'm going to miss the political season at home in the US this year, but I'll keep up on line. When Holder causes more trouble than the hard-left base will cause if he is fired - then he will go, which judging by his chronically poor judgement should be soon. The newspaper press, as was, will be the first to turn on the President. Scandal sells, and lord knows they need to sell something. Fox ratings will continue to climb and eat into market share. The adults who do the accounting at the networks will be forced to intervene at some point, but not NBC. GE will prop them up. They'll champion the President till the end, it will just become more shameless.

Clark Coan 4 years, 7 months ago

Obama can order the military to seal off the border> Aren't they supposed to protect our borders anyway?

Brent Garner 4 years, 7 months ago

Obama could, but he won't. He wants all those illegal immigrants legalized and gratefully voting for demoncrats this fall. Oh, and too many Republicsins want all those illegal immigrants for their cheap labor. A pox on both those houses.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

Since ACORN has faded away (yeah, right) a new source for Imaginary Americans has to be found.

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 7 months ago

snack_crap_no_sense,

Our president is a black man named Barack Hussein Obama and is of Kenyan ancestry. Suck on that binky, smart guy.

Sad trombones for right wingers who don't like our black president: waaa waaa waaaa waaaaaaaa.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

Nighty, our Pantone 138, Kansas-heritage President depends on mindless drones like you for support. His formerly illegal alien aunt depends on your tax dollars for her support.

fancy80 4 years, 7 months ago

ywn, by the logic used by Ivalueamerica (see above), you are prejudiing right wingers. I don't like our president, but not because he is black. I don't like our president, but not because his name is Barack Hussein Obama and of Kenyan ancestry. I don't like our president because I disagree with his partisan politics, and I disagree with most of his beliefs in general. So take your sad tronbone and suck on that!

independant1 4 years, 7 months ago

Our president is a half white man named Barak Hussein Obama and is of Kansan and Kenyan ancestry.

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 7 months ago

As a capitalist, I understand that eliminating demand will eliminate supply. There is a demand for cheap, illegal labor in the US, and illegal immigrants are more then willing to supply themselves for this demand.

Any capitalist knows that trying to eliminate supply without dealing with demand is doomed to failure. It goes against the very basis of human nature upon which capitalism is based. The supply will satisfy the demand despite all attempts to stop it.

The best way to stop illegal immigration is to crack down on corporations, businesses, and farms that hire these folks. Eliminate the demand. This will likely result in higher wages for American workers to do the same jobs and thus higher prices for food, goods, etc.

If stopping illegal immigration is so important, we should be willing to pay more for food, goods, and services.

Trying to stop the supply of illegal immigrants leads to dehumanizing and inhumane acts and is bound to fail anyway.

This is our choice.

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 7 months ago

"Any country that doesn't strictly enforce its borders is not a sovereign nation."

If true, then the USA has not been a sovereign nation for a very long time, and the corporations, farms and businesses that hire lllegals are those responsible for this lack of sovereignty.

bearded_gnome 4 years, 7 months ago

okay, what if we mirror our immigration laws on those of ... mexico?

there, you're an illegal immigrant, you're tossed in the can for two years.
second offense: ten years. and they shoot people on their southern border routinely!


BR549, great idea. plus: anyone caught here illegally is immediatly disqualified from ever gaining american citizenship because he or she broke our laws.
also, all his or her offspring are also disqualified.


I counted at least five times that Andres OpenBorder misrepresented the new Arizona law. so, clearly he is a fascilitator of illegal immigration.
our bad laws are no excuse for people to break them and break into our country.

I hope AZ cuts electricity immediately to LA.
sell it this way AZ!

fancy80 4 years, 7 months ago

Mr. Oppenheimer is in good company, because, clearly, he has not read the bill either. Good point bearded_gnome, he did misrepresent a good deal of his points above.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

The day after Mexico gives up control of its borders, we should consider doing the same thing. Until then, no dice.

fancy80 4 years, 7 months ago

The state of Arizona should give free one-way bus ticket to Los Angeles to any and all illegal immigrants currently (illegally) residing in Arizona.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 7 months ago

Where is the indignation over the violence coming over the border to Arizona? Where is the outrage over the deaths and kidnappings of our citizens?

From the NY Times:

PHOENIX — The raging drug war among cartels in Mexico and their push to expand operations in the United States has led to a wave of kidnappings, shootings and home invasions in Arizona, state and federal officials said at a legislative hearing on Monday.

The drug trade has long brought violence to the state, which serves as a hub as illicit drugs, like cocaine and marijuana, and illegal immigrants are smuggled to the rest of the nation.

A home invasion here last year was carried out by attackers wielding military-style rifles and dressed in uniforms similar to a Phoenix police tactical unit. The discovery of grenades and other military-style weaponry bound for Mexico is becoming more routine, as is hostage-taking and kidnapping for ransom, law enforcement officials said.

The Phoenix police regularly receive reports involving a border-related kidnapping or hostage-taking in a home.

The Maricopa County attorney’s office said such cases rose to 241 last year from 48 in 2004, though investigators are not sure of the true number because they believe many crimes go unreported.

The violence in Mexico — where more than 6,000 people were killed in the last year in drug-related violence, double the number of the previous year — is “reaching into Arizona, and that is what is really alarming local and state law enforcement,” said Cmdr. Dan Allen of the State Department of Public Safety.

“We are finding home invasion and attacks involving people impersonating law enforcement officers,” Commander Allen told the State Senate Judiciary Committee, whose chairman, Jonathan Paton of the Tucson area, called the hearing. “They are very forceful and aggressive. They are heavily armed, and they threaten, assail, bind and sometimes kill victims.”

Chief David Denlinger of the State Department of Public Safety said that while tactics like home invasions might not be new in the drug trade, “they are getting more prevalent.”

The hearing comes at a time of heightened anxiety in the United States brought on by the escalating violence in Mexico and a federal report in December that said the Mexican cartels “maintain drug distribution networks or supply drugs to distributors in at least 230 U.S. cities.”

The report from the National Drug Intelligence Center said the cartels posed “the greatest drug trafficking threat to the United States; they control most of the U.S. drug market and have established varied transportation routes, advanced communications capabilities and strong affiliations with gangs in the United States.”

The police and federal agents regularly seize large loads of cocaine, marijuana and other drugs smuggled in vehicles and sometimes on the backs of couriers and illegal immigrants linked to drug organizations.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

Sure, I want them to have their civil rights-- which include a fair trial, and imprisonment and likely deportation if convicted.

But I don't want to deport the next door neighbor's lawn cutters just because you don't like their brown skin and funny accents.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Why isn't it absolutely deportation?

I don't understand why we'd put them in jail, where we have to pay for their housing/food/etc. rather than simply sending them back.

Also, I agree with the above poster - make it impossible for those coming here illegally to qualify for legal status in the future - maybe that'll slow things down.

And, I agree that the employers need to be held accountable - the new AZ law in fact has provisions for that, I believe.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"Why isn't it absolutely deportation?"

I think whether/when they are deported depends on the seriousness of the crime, and also what is likely to happen to them if/when they are deported.

But it's also likely that there is very little logic or uniformity involved.

"make it impossible for those coming here illegally to qualify for legal status in the future"

Most of those who come here do so out of desperation, economic or otherwise. Until the causes of that desperation is addressed, they'll keep coming back-- especially since the vast majority currently have zero chance of ever coming here legally, anyway.

"I agree that the employers need to be held accountable"

This is the only measure that will have any effect. As long as jobs are available, there will be no shortage of desperate people willing to cross the border in order to take them.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

Truly sealing the border is a physical and economic impossibility.

So that leaves three possible solutions.

  1. Dramatically reduce the undocumented employment opportunities available here.

  2. Increase the employment possibilities in the countries these immigrants come from.

  3. Make it relatively easy for immigrants to register to come here for jobs, and travel back and forth across the border in a controlled manner.

Or some combination of the three.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"Why is it impossible to seal the border?"

I suppose it's possible, as long you as you see worth $billions it'd take to construct, and $trillions it would take to staff and maintain. But what do you think we should forego in order to pay for it? I guess one way to fund it to just go ahead and let all our bridges collapse. If that's your line of thinking, then yes, it's doable.

But my question--if this is truly the best answer to the problem, why wasn't it done long ago? It's been a hot-button issue for many decades.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"For one thing, I am not sure it would cost billions and trillions. Are you?"

My assumption is that a truly secure wall would cost as much as an interstate highway would. The cost of such such a highway is about $10 million a mile, which times nearly 2000 miles adds up to about $20 billion.

But with highways, no one is actively seeking to destroy or disable them, which would almost certainly be the case with a border fence.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

That was an incredibly weak and repetitive column Mr. Oppenheimer. I couldn't give a rat's tuckus if it was Denmark to the south of us. This is unbelievably ridiculous. Any other developed nation you visit and you MUST have proper ID. You don't? Jail and deportation. But here......it's racial profiling. Folks, only a moron would pretend they don't know the racial make-up of the primary offenders. If it was Denmark to our south, then it'd be 6' tall, blond hair, blue eyed illegals - I foot that bill (if I'm standing on a book :) - and I STILL would be for this pro-action by Arizona. Card me. I've got 30 seconds. Pull me aside at the airport. Bothers me not. All this bluster over "Can I see some ID?" ??! Who hasn't heard those words besides our grandmothers? Arizona's illegal population has nearly doubled since 2000 and their expense is in the billions per year. I believe it's near 80% of illegals are hispanic..... what do you want? And for the record, I want every single person that wants to be an American to be afforded that opportunity. Ya gotta go through the process. Make it easier for our Hispanic brothers and sisters, fine by me. Our cost ratios are exponentially above theirs, for the most part, so making it cheaper, waiving the fee, financing......whatever....is cool, too. But it has to be done right. And the borders need to be sealed, at least a hell of a lot better than they are now. All this dough on defense and we can't fix this? Our "government" blows.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Brilliant reply. 'Course I'm a tad confused as there's been no ruling on this law being unconstitutional as yet, now has there? In fact, this law just makes federal law pro-active. Huh. FEDERAL law. If it's ruled to be against the constitution, then I'll back the SCOTUS decision, though I'd like you to point out where in that document it says that someone can't be asked for identification. 'Til that comes to pass however, you can take your intellectually void rejoinders and go.............

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

I believe the Constitutional issue would be the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

The question would be whether the circumstances under which someone is asked to show ID constitute an unreasonable search.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Absolutely, the issue is whether it's an "unreasonable search" to ask for someone to identify themselves. The way the law has been amended - that a person must be stopped for lawful reasons, as in they get pulled over for running a light - seems that there's nothing 'unreasonable' about it.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Brilliant assessment! A law was amended so that proves blah de blah de......... take your time and maybe you'll glimpse the logical fallacy called 'oversimplification' in your ... ahem.. argument. Laws are amended all the time, brain trust, doesn't automatically mean it was done due to X and Y.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Just like the other string, you're eyes must be brown you're so full of it. Let's parse this crappola:

"No they just amended it for sh**s and giggles."

Is that supposed to be a coherent rejoinder? Did I say it was amended for no reason? Otherwise your reply is the stuff of two year olds. It was amended to specify scope. But you obviously have never read the bill and/or don't actually have a clue what you're talking about, as revealed with.....

"And they only amended the parts pertaining to racial profiling and Constitutional violations"

'Conversation' over. Read the damn thing, moron. Until you actually KNOW what you're arguing about, you're merely a waste of freakin' time. I know what the legal, moral, and constitutional ramifications are. The arguments you've put forth are worthless. There are legitimate reasons to be against this law. Unfortunately, you have no idea how to argue them.

Just like the last time, quit wasting my time.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 7 months ago

Why all the hatin' over this new law?

Heathcare Reform was flawed, but passed for our own good. It is what is right for the country, just trust us! The Arizona law should be treated in kind - it works both ways, right?. Please, can't we all just get along?

Jay Keffer 4 years, 7 months ago

Did you notice how all the Yugo dealerships were always on the top of a hill? Hmmmmm - it ran fine when I bought it......

Brent Garner 4 years, 7 months ago

Let's see. Most places if I write a check I get asked for ID. Many places if I use a credit card or debit card I get asked for ID. The first thing the policeman asks when he stops you for a traffic violation is ID and registration. Thankfully US ID requirements are very minimal. No internal passport. No travel permit. Just produce a legitimate picture ID and everything is kosher. If you can't produce the ID, then rightfully, there could be problems.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Beautiful. The words you're looking for are "rife with". Not 'ripe.' And your'e speculation is showing.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Actually, in all of those situations I would have easy access to my driver's license, which I carry in my wallet, like most people.

It might require going to a locker and opening it to get it if it's been stored there.

Not really such an issue.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Thank you for illustrating the ignorant side of the argument, Jesse. Knee jerk, chicken little reactionaries like to float out such non-sequiturs, as if the police are now looking to stop ANYone taking a walk or jogging around their neighborhood. Read the law!
I'm also certain that the local swimming pool "raids" will become the stuff of legend, akin to the days of Ness' raids on Capones bootleg hooch houses. And I can just see it now...... police boats towing cops in full uniform, jumping wakes to get to the huge numbers of illegals who come to this country just for the skiiing. I'm tired of them hogging all the glassy spots on the lake anyway!! "Adam one-twelve, adam one-twelve, looks like we've got a boat full of skiers, might just be tanned, but we're floating in for a closer look. Request back-up,.... and some SPF 30, over."

Dumb da dumb dumb duuuuummmb!

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Riiight. What's the point of bringing such scenarios up? Just to prove you don't carry your ID everywhere? Who cares?! If you truly weren't trying to tie such scenarios to possible problematic situations due to this law, what's the point? Man, you're full of it.

jaywalker 4 years, 7 months ago

Yup. I get that you're full of it. The "ones you pointed out" are the proverbial strawmen you've thrown at me and others recently. What? Just learned what that is....sort of? Who cares that you don't carry an ID when you're swimming, jogging, skiing??? It has no tie to this conversation unless you're trying to illustrate examples when others might be harassed by this new Arizona law.......and your "ones" ain't a realistic analogy, kiddo. Get it? Quit bein' a _

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

In other news: “Barack Obama has spent the last few weeks offering baleful warnings about the consequences of Arizona’s new immigration law, warning of the potential discrimination that could occur if law enforcement officials start asking about legal residency and checking papers. Apparently, that’s something of which Obama is already keenly aware — and in which students in Kalamazoo, Michigan just got a crash course. In order to be personally greeted by the President, they were told, the government needs to check on their citizenship status, emphasis mine: The White House appears to be laying the groundwork for President Barack Obama to shake the hand of each senior at Kalamazoo Central High School’s commencement ceremony next month. Seniors are being asked to provide their birthdates, Social Security numbers and citizen status to the Secret Service so background checks could be performed. Such a check is required for anyone who gets within an arm’s length of the president, students were told at their senior breakfast Friday. Of the fact that the White House is requesting information on all the graduating seniors, K-Central Principal Von Washingon Jr. told the students, “I’ll let you figure out what that means,” said senior Simon Boehme, who was at the breakfast. What it means? It means that the White House is preparing to profile these patriotic American citizens! They’re going to be just like a police state, demanding “papers” from ordinary folks just to go about their business! Or, more likely, the Secret Service is just doing their job — as the Arizona law-enforcement officers will do theirs, and the Obama administration won’t.” http://hotair.com/archives/2010/05/20/obamateurism-of-the-day-275/

independant1 4 years, 7 months ago

withiin and arms length... Have been through that background check 4 times in 35 years. The Secret Service or FBI actually followup and interview neighbors to find out stuff about you. Ann ounce of prevention...

So - offended my privacy has been violated?

Nope,

and yup, carry ID with me whenever I leave the house. Ya never know when one may need to produce ID. One of my kids has his military id tatoo, comes in handy at Home Depot. Can you say discount?

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

"I say we adopt mexicos laws on illegal immigration." Just imagine the wailing and the moaning that would be heard from Mexicans who are illegally in America if we did that. That thought makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

puddleglum 4 years, 7 months ago

ooh ooh, I like #3! either that, or make it a flat tax.,.. I am very pretty and make lots of money, however, $250 a week goes to moochers... total BS!

puddleglum 4 years, 7 months ago

bloodypad! that is hilarious! keep it up, 'stick!

somedude20 4 years, 7 months ago

Barry, what do you say, when we get rid of all of the Mexicans, lets go after the Polish and Irish as I never did like em too. Hell, I am Irish and I hate my ancestry Barry please help get rid of these inglourious basterds

Pied Piper Barry, Polished Micks, and lets keep the country for ourselves live unprecedented

arizonajh 4 years, 7 months ago

Agnostic- Barry-Snap Ever been to Arizona? Mexico? Have any of you. You all talk like know what's going on here and you don't have a clue. There is no violence down here that hasn't been going on for 10 - 20 years. Our crime rate on the border is at its lowest point since 1971. There are not half as many illegal's here as there were 5 years ago. This law is grandstanding! It's a solution looking for a problem. The Arizona economy would collapse if they did deport all the illegals. I have lived in Arizona for 15 years now it is no different here, as far as crime, from the day I first moved here. I go to Puerto Pinassco (Rocky Point to you Gringo's) in Baja Mexico all the time in fact our company has a yearly weekend outing down there; it's beautiful, never once has there been any problem besides beer being way to cheap for my own good. This law is just an attempt to make the current President and the federal government look negligent. The fact is that there were higher crime rates and more illegals here when Republicans were in control of all three branches of the federal government and they did absolutely nothing about it then. It's the same song and dance since this president was elected. Debt under Republicans not a problem, debt under Democrats a crisis. Deficits (don't matter) under Republicans, under Democrats they threaten the very fabric of our nation. Tax rate under Republicans was just fine, same rate under Democrats is theft. Border policy is exactly the same as it was under Bush. Obama promised change but to the chagrin of the right hoping he was a socialist activist has changed almost nothing. If he had pulled all the border agents or tore down parts of the fence I could see all the b@#tching but nothing has changed.

arizonajh 4 years, 7 months ago

continued- This is an extreme right wing legislature in Arizona (they make the Topeka crowd look like Deadheads after a three day show in Vegas) and they have pushed through a radical right wing agenda i.e. no permit to carry a gun in public, no training, no license (gang members can walk down the street with AK's and police can't do a thing about it) and if the gun is made in AZ you can even skip the federal background check. You can carry guns in bars, nightclubs, restaurants and casinos (though the legislature did prohibit the carrying of any weapons in any of the buildings where they work!). It is now iIlegal to teach anyone of their heritage if it is not American. We have an unelected Governor who's alma mater is a local JuCo running the state and state career politicians making her dance like a marionette. The Maricopa County sheriff (greater Phoenix) is out of control he among other things is sending out letters on Sheriff Dept letterhead telling county employees that cooperating with the federal government in an investigation of himself and the District Attorney for among other things RACIAL PROFILING that they will arrested for violation of attorney-client privileges (though the Sheriff or his dept. are not a "client" of the district attorney) if they talk to investigators. He has arrested newspaper owners for publishing info on him that is public record. He has raided the city offices of a mayor that publicly disagreed with him and took their computer system (can you imagine showing up at Lawrence City Hall and they say sorry we cant help you the Douglas County Sheriff took our servers?). We have a bunch of problems in Arizona, 3 serial killers in the past 7 years (two white, one black, no Hispanics) no water, only two pipe lines that carry gasoline into the state, a nuclear power plant that can't run a month without a major shut down, and I don't know if you notice but it is hotter than Satan's backyard down here, illegal immigrant violence is about 50th on the list, but my how it's importance has grown in an election year. And before you accuse me of being an Illegal supporter or an illegal myself I can trace my family back by name to the early 1600's in what is now North Carolina where my 8th great-grandfather (most likely a Muslim man from Morroco or the south of Spain (according to DNA or RNA I can't remember which) married a Cherokee woman, so to me you're all damn immigrants.

puddleglum 4 years, 7 months ago

Cherokees and all 'native americans' are immigrants too. They came from russia. unless you believe that they magically appeared on the continent one day. We are all immigrants. Some got here earlier than others....my family has been here since 1720's... doesn't make me special.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

"There are not half as many illegal's here as there were 5 years ago." Citation, please?

Bryan Moore 4 years, 7 months ago

You see Snap I don't need someone to tell me what I see everyday. I see it at Home Depot where 5 years ago there were crowds of hundreds of guy's at every parking lot, guy's were jumping in the backs of trucks as soon as you got near the entrance. Now there are 10-15 guys at most. I've had two landscape companies tell me they can't continue to do my yard because they can't find enough workers. Surprise, surprise when the construction work dried up they left! I can see it in the houses that used to have several Hispanic families living together and now the whole neighborhood is deserted. We're turning into a two and half million person ghost town. I see what's going on in my town. Do you know what is happening in your hometown? Do you need a weather man to tell you which way the wind is blowing.

independant1 4 years, 7 months ago

ok,

divide the problem by 2

there's 10 million illegals here!!! chaos on the southern border

somebody please do something about the chaos.

Even if the first try is wrong, do something.

geeeeeez

Bryan Moore 4 years, 7 months ago

Yes, crashing the economy does tend to get the migrants to leave.

KS 4 years, 7 months ago

Can't wait until we get the Arizona law in Kansas. I love it. It is about time. Apparently BO doesn't believe in enforcing the laws of the US which is what he swore to do. Oh gosh! Why does that not come as a surprise?

Bryan Moore 4 years, 7 months ago

Too bad too. Bush had us all illegal free and then Obama came and opened up the flood gates. The right seems to think all problems began on the day Obama was elected. Guess what your guy didn't do a damn thing about it for 8 years. He had all three branches of government on his side and did nothing. Your Republican leaders did nothing but did you say a thing? No, you wait till the other side gets a chance to govern and then blame them for the mess as they're walking in the door, typical.

Bryan Moore 4 years, 7 months ago

How is he ripping you off Tommy? What has changed in your life, that is making you poorer today, and is a direct result of something that Obama did? Do you even have a job? You seem to spend all day every day on this site.

Bryan Moore 4 years, 7 months ago

I don't care if my wife made a million dollars a year I could not sit on my butt all day and do nothing. If he doesn't work and is so knowledgeable that he has to come on here every day and tell people he has all the answers and knows exactly what this world, country, state and city needs why doesn't he run for office? You know put his money (or I guess her money in this case) where his mouth is. Maybe his wife won't let him come out and play. If you have nothing to do and you piss and moan all day and do nothing to change what you dislike I do fault you for that. Look at Mike Vestal in Tonganoxie, he's in a wheel chair has very limited use of his arms and he still manages to dispatch for the local PD and be Mayor of the town in his spare time. He didn't say I get my disability check and my wife works so I'll just lie around and whine. Does he have an ailment that limits him more than Mayor Vestal?

Bryan Moore 4 years, 7 months ago

I have about 80+ relatives who live in the Lawrence and KC area and I am always interested in whats going on in my birthplace. I love Kansas and KU and if there was expanding infrastructure and I could get a job in structural engineering there I would be back in a heartbeat but there's not so I go where the work is. My company has offered me jobs in Dubai, China, India, Iraq, Afghanistan and many places in western Europe but we have nothing in Kansas. Arizona allows me to work on great projects in not only Arizona but in California, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada and Utah. I read the LJW and KC Star everyday but I rarely comment. It takes a lot of B.S. flying around before I do. It does bother me when people comment on things they know nothing about. If I don't really know "facts" about the subject I don't feel the need to let everyone know my "opinion". I don't comment on Global Warming because I'm not a climatologist and I would have to just parrot what I've heard someone else say. I don't comment on K-2 laws, or expanding the local highway system because I'm not there and I don't smoke incense and I don't use the roads. I don't claim to know the on ground conditions in Afghanistan because I'm not there. I know about Arizona so I commented. I watched, read and laughed for a day or so and then I'd had enough. They don't have a clue as to what is going on here but the spout off like they're experts. Read what the County Sheriffs are saying in Cochise, and down in Yuma that Vertigo posted. It's a sham. Like the Maine and the Gulf of Tokin (R's and D's) these are politicians taking an incident (the death of a rancher) and using to further their political desires with no regard for the truth.

Bryan Moore 4 years, 7 months ago

As the AZ Rep Kavenaugh (Fountain Hills) said in the Arizona Republic Newspaper , "the probable cause could be a report of the smell of marijuana in the area". So if you can get someone to say they smelled something you can demand papers from everyone in the vacinity. "Probable cause can be fitting the discription of suspect in a previous crime" so if there was a crime believed to be committed by a Latino male (description Hispanic male 5'-5 to 5'-10 125 -150 pounds dark complection and dark hair) then all Latino males can be asked for ID? Probable cause can be failure to use a turn signal (if you did or not it's your word against his) Yea, probable cause is a pretty high hurdle.

cowboy 4 years, 7 months ago

whats the matter tom and barry ? can't handle the truth. Arizonajh2 echoes my thoughts exactly. It's all political hoopla designed to get non-informed people all stirred up.

Having lived in Arizona 25 years I can tell you this about the immigrants with great certainty , the food is great , the families are rock solid , predominantly Catholic , they work their butts off , , and the women are hot , thats all I need to be in favor of them .

The families for decades have been split by the border . If you were a man and needed to care for your family and wanted a better life , you'd make the same move.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

Immigrants came here legally. Illegal aliens are a different story.

kernal 4 years, 7 months ago

Tom and Barry, if you watched any of the national news channels tonight, you would know arizonajh2 is on track. Some lamebrain Californian has evidently been using old footage from 1994 as current immigrant footage about some scuffle at the CA border for his current election campaign. I've already had my say on this in the past and I've not changed my mind. In fact, I feel even more strongly that the situation in AZ is out of control and becomes more ridiculous every day. Check out what Trenton, NJ is doing for their Hispanic population and why. I'm sure there will be more cities following their lead.

Boston_Corbett 4 years, 7 months ago

ha ha. arizonajh2 shut a few traps.

Welcome to the discussion arizona. Give it to them unvarnished. Your explanations make sense to me.

Tamara Degner 4 years, 7 months ago

I have an Idea, why don't we do what Mexico does........The main points of Mexico immigration laws are 1.) Immigrants cannot be an economic burden. 2.) Immigrants must be healthy. 3.) Immigrants must not have a criminal record. 4.) Immigrants must show birth certificate. 5.) Immigrants must provide their own healthcare. Another part of the Mexico Immigration laws: 1.) Government can ban foreigners based on race. 2.) Illegal entry is a felony (jail/fine) if you do it twice it is 10 years in prison. 3.) Document fraud will land you in jail. 4.) Deportation without due process. 5.) Police must enforce immigration laws. Any comments?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 7 months ago

"1.) Immigrants cannot be an economic burden.

There's little evidence that they are an economic burden in this country. Unless you call near slave labor a burden.

"2.) Immigrants must be healthy."

If you can survive the trip across the desert, you're probably pretty healthy.

"3.) Immigrants must not have a criminal record."

I seriously doubt that many of the immigrants have criminal records. Do you have evidence otherwise?

"4.) Immigrants must show birth certificate."

For what purpose? To show that they were born?

"5.) Immigrants must provide their own healthcare."

No problem. All Americans must do the same.

"1.) Government can ban foreigners based on race."

Which races do you propose we ban? (I'll bet it ain't a white one.)

"2.) Illegal entry is a felony (jail/fine) if you do it twice it is 10 years in prison."

We already do that.

" 3.) Document fraud will land you in jail."

We do that, too.

"4.) Deportation without due process."

Any other ways you want to trash the Constitution?

"5.) Police must enforce immigration laws."

Controlling immigration in this country is a federal responsibility. Do you wish to change that? If so, why?

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

If those without health insurance use the ER for their health care and can't pay for it, that affects the rest of us negatively.

We have no idea about their criminal records or health (that's kind of the point).

Do we really put people in jail for 10 years if they've come here illegally twice?

If the federal government were doing a good job, there'd be no issue. They are clearly not, as evidenced by the 10-12 million illegal aliens in this country.

Tamara Degner 4 years, 7 months ago

You do not think the illegal immigrants from Mexico are an economic burden? Go to Arizona and see for yourself. By the way, Justice Rehnquist, (you know of the Supreme Court) ruled that in the federal capacity, a police officer could ask for verification of immigration status without probable cause. Make the immigrants do it right or don't let them in. Period.

standuporget 4 years, 7 months ago

vertigo what are the federal laws about carrying ID for citizens and non citizens. Also when police can ask for ID or proof of citizenship.

arizonajh 4 years, 7 months ago

My point exactly. If immigration through those two states was down from 1.2 million in 2005 to 541,000 (approx 54.9% decrease) last year but rose 6% (6% x 541,000 = 32,450) October to April the overall rate is still down 47.8% since 2005. That is pretty darn close to the "half as many illegals" that I originally stated.

As far as the Home Depot comment it just goes to show that you don't really know what is going on here. It is well known in Phoenix that Sheriff Joe will go after Local shops (his famous first immagrant round-up was in the parking lot a local furniture store where day workers would gather to get work) and has gone after those at Lowes but he does not raid the Home Depot lots. I don't know if he worries about problems with such large company or maybe he is friends with someone connected with them but whatever it is he and his officers stay away.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

Be legal or be gone, whether you are from Iceland or Brazil.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

In other news: Fidel and Raul Castro join with our Dear Leader in denouncing Arizona's effort to enforce laws the feds are ignoring. “…Consider this the Somewhat Left The Irony On Department entry for today. We’re trying to keep people from illegally entering our country, which is a key national-security issue as noted by the 9/11 Commission almost six years ago. The Cuban junta not only keeps people locked into their country, but also locked into assigned areas of the island, and their police can demand papers of anyone at any time to enforce those oppressive laws. When Ed Reyes talks about needing a passport to be in Arizona, maybe he should reconsider his hyperbole in light of those facts, no? Besides, if Cuba wants to talk about racist and xenophobic governments, they need look no further than Havana. Val Prieto can explain at length the racism of the regime as it related to the death of democracy activist Orlando Zapata Tamayo (content warning). It would be easy to dismiss Cuba’s propaganda if it weren’t for the fact that they’re essentially parroting the irresponsible rhetoric of American politicians. Those elected to public office here ought to consider the effects of their hyperbole and ignorant rants over a law that only tasks law enforcement with enforcing existing federal law, and in Reyes’ case, in almost exactly the same language as that of his own state’s penal code. As usual, it’s best to be on the opposite side of anything that the Castro Brothers either endorse or oppose.” http://hotair.com/archives/2010/05/21/well-known-bastion-of-freedom-blasts-arizona-law-as-brutal-violation-of-human-rights/

geekyhost 4 years, 6 months ago

Make another ID without a racist username.

kansasmutt 4 years, 7 months ago

IIlegal immigrant ? What part of that do you not understand ? Should the police not enforce the laws ? Should we let anyone and everyone into our country with no questions asked ? Can you enter any other country illegal and stay for free and use the system to live ? Try entering Russia, Africa , Iran , Germany illegaly and see what happens. I think it is time to police america . Enter legaly and we will welcome you with open arms, after all, that is how we all got here. Most of us anyway .Last time i looked, illegal meant against the law. Or if you want to be a smart a*# it means sick bird.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

Meanwhile, in Mexico: " MEXICO CITY — The son of a former presidential candidate missing for a week asked authorities Friday to stay out of what he called the "negotiation" for his father.

The statement to local media by the son of missing politician Diego Fernandez de Cevallos appears to confirm that his family believes he was kidnapped.

"We earnestly ask that they (authorities) stay out of this process in order to help the negotiation," said the message signed by Diego Fernandez de Cevallos Gutierrez.

A photo of a shirtless, blindfolded man resembling the gray-bearded politician appeared on social networking sites late Thursday. An associated message reportedly asked family members to get authorities to stay out of the case.

The family's statement Friday did not confirm that talks have begun, whether they have been contacted by kidnappers or what if any demands may have been made.

It is common for Mexican families to try to negotiate directly with kidnappers. But Fernandez de Cevallos' long-standing position in President Felipe Calderon's National Action Party makes their mistrust of authorities seem more unusual.

Fernandez de Cevallos, 69, was reported missing March 15 after his abandoned vehicle was found near his ranch with traces of blood found on a pair of scissors.

The photo posted on Twitter shows a grim-faced, bearded man with a sheet of plastic in the background. The beard and shape of the face look like those of Fernandez de Cevallos, but the Federal Attorney General's office has not confirmed the photo's authenticity.

Medical experts interviewed on Milenio television said the man appeared to be alive.

Fernandez de Cevallos was the 1994 presidential candidate of the National Action Party, and while he finished second, his campaign helped lead to the party's victory in the 2000 election, ending 71 years of single-party domination in Mexico...."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7017174.html

Flap Doodle 4 years, 7 months ago

Why do we need to control the border?: "EDMONDS, Wash. – The KING 5 Investigators have learned that an illegal immigrant accused of raping a woman in Edmonds Sunday has been deported nine times. That's much more than previously reported...." http://www.king5.com/news/local/Investigators-Edmonds-rape-suspect-deported-nine-times-94637479.html

kernal 4 years, 7 months ago

Wish I could cut and paste pictures forwarded from a friend in AZ. They are of a 1.5 mi. area of a wash in the Sonoran Desert just south of Tucson. It is literally covered with discarded back packs, water bottles, dirty diapers, discarded clothes, feces and food wrappers left by the coyotes and the people they bring across. Estimats are over 5,000 back packs and thousands of soiled diapers. Not just a few hundred.

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