Arizona Legislature moves to allow concealed guns in bars / LJWorld.com

Archive for Monday, June 29, 2009

By Amanda Lee Myers - Associated Press Writer

June 29, 2009

Phoenix — There was a time in the Wild West that cowboys had to check their guns before they could pull up a barstool for a drink — rules that protected against the saloon gunfights that came to define the frontier era in places like Arizona.

But a bill moving through the Arizona Legislature has some bar owners fearful that the state is turning back the clock to the Old West. Lawmakers are considering a bill that would allow anyone with a concealed-weapons permit to bring a handgun into bars and restaurants serving alcohol.

The bill gives bars discretion to keep gun-toting patrons out, and anyone with a weapon would not be allowed to drink. But the bill has angered bar owners who believe booze and guns are a recipe for disaster.

“This might be one of the stupidest things that I have heard of,” said Mike Nelson, who owns Pomeroy’s bar in Phoenix and plans to post a sign on his front door outlawing guns in his bar as soon as possible. “Can you think of a single reason guns and alcohol should be intertwined?”

The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.

“These laws are common sense,” said NRA spokeswoman Rachel Parsons. “Restaurants are not immune to criminal activity. Law-abiding people — regardless of whether they’re in restaurants, cars or homes — they should be able to protect themselves against criminal attack.”

One of the bill’s sponsors, Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, said it’s about time Arizona passed such a law, and that the most important thing is that people carrying guns into bars aren’t allowed to drink.

“You don’t want intoxicated people with weapons, and this bill continues the prohibition against drinking and carrying,” said Kavanagh, a retired police officer in New York and New Jersey. “What is the problem with having a gun in a delicatessen where someone is having a beer with their pastrami two tables away?”

The law would only apply to people with concealed-weapons permits because lawmakers say that type of gun owner has to pass a background check and take an eight-hour course to get a permits, and is therefore safer. More than 127,000 Arizonans have concealed-weapons permits, according to the Arizona Department of Public Safety.

Discussion

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29 June 2009
at 9:53 a.m.

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rcr (Anonymous) says…

This is already legal in the great state of Kansas, unless the bar has posted the required no guns sign.

Also, I believe that in Kansas you can actually carry a gun into a bar and have a drink as long as you don't reach the point of being intoxicated. If I am wrong on this point I am sure someone will correct me.
29 June 2009
at 10:16 a.m.

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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

rcr, you were incorrect on both statements.
Check http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/75-7…
Section 75-7c09 says CCW is illegal in drinking establishments as defined in K.S.A. 41-2601.
Section 75-7c12 says it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Having a BAC of less than .08 percent does not mean you are not under the influence.
29 June 2009
at 10:17 a.m.

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barrypenders (Anonymous) says…

Gotta do something to catch up to the number of packing bad guys in drinking an afternoon totty. What does one expect, Wyatt Earp to saunter in there draw staring the desperado?
29 June 2009
at 10:34 a.m.

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jimmyjms (Anonymous) says…

Textbook definition of blatant stupidity.
29 June 2009
at 11:03 a.m.

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KansasVoter (Anonymous) says…

Well, at least the bar owners are allowed to choose to keep their bars gun-free. I'll bet that most of them will take advantage of that choice to keep things the way that they are. It would be nice if anti-smoking laws worked that way, too.
29 June 2009
at 11:10 a.m.

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timetospeakup (Anonymous) says…

wrong snap_pop_no_crackle

75-7c12 2-3 states 0.08 or greater is prima facie evidence of being under the influence, but that levels under that require other evidence to prove influence

75-7c10 (not 75-7c9 as you stated) clearly begins stating the requirement that the place of business in question is properly posted. This section mearly provides enhanced penalties for carrying in certain types of locations when they are posted. Posting with the correct signage is required for it to be an offense.
29 June 2009
at 11:11 a.m.

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rcr (Anonymous) says…

snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) said…

rcr, you were incorrect on both statements.
Check http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/75-7…
Section 75-7c09 says CCW is illegal in drinking establishments as defined in K.S.A. 41-2601.
––––––––––––––––––-

Actually it is 75-7c10, not 75c09 that states:

75-7c10. Same; places where carrying concealed weapon not authorized; penalties for
violations. (a) Provided that the premises are conspicuously posted in accordance with rules and
regulations adopted by the attorney general as premises where carrying a concealed weapon is prohibited,
no license issued pursuant to this act shall authorize the licensee to carry a concealed weapon into:

any portion of a drinking establishment as defined by K.S.A. 41-2601, and amendments thereto,
except that this provision shall not apply to a restaurant as defined by K.S.A. 41-2601, and amendments
thereto;

But as it states in the first part of 75-7c10 CCW is prohibited “(a) Provided that the premises are conspicuously posted in accordance with rules and
regulations adopted by the attorney general as premises where carrying a concealed weapon is prohibited”

So as I stated in my earlier post, CCW is legal unless there is the proper signage stating that it is prohibited.

As i also stated in my earlier post I was unsure about mt second statement. That being said, from what I have read in 75-7c12, I still am not sure that it would be illegal to walk into a bar and have one beer.

29 June 2009
at 11:12 a.m.

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timetospeakup (Anonymous) says…

sorry, meant to say merely :)
29 June 2009
at 11:33 a.m.

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rcr (Anonymous) says…

OeraLinda (Anonymous) said…

The textbook definition of blatant stupidity is the belief that a sign of gun with a red line through it prevents firearms from entering buildings. Or believing gun control disarms criminals.
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The purpose of CCW was never to disarm criminals. Those who think that are the ones acting with “blatant stupidity”.

The purpose of CCW is to allow law biding citizens to carry a weapon for self protection. Most of those who have taken all the proper classes and training required to get a CCW will disarm themselves before entering a business that has the proper signage prohibiting CCW. Those that don't should have their CCW's pulled.

As for the bad boy criminals that carry guns into a posted place of business, they are just that, criminals. They will carry their gun anywhere they go. They most likely have never applied for a CCW, and in a lot of the cases couldn't have passed a background check if they had. So no, signs will not prevent these people from entering, but this has nothing to do with CCW. These same people would have carried their weapon in before CCW ever existed, and will continue to carry if CCW is ever repealed.
29 June 2009
at 10:36 p.m.

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Guardian (Anonymous) says…

I teach the course and I am very pro Second Amendment. I gotta tell ya, allowing guns in bars is not the wisest of moves. Guns and booze do not mix. Period! This is potentially as dangerous as cars and booze.
29 June 2009
at 10:57 p.m.

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1029 (Anonymous) says…

This is a great law! I was out in Tempe last month, minding my own business at this bar, and these ASU punks started giving me the evil eye. It really ticked me off. I wish I could have flashed them my firearm and maybe busted off a few warning rounds in the ceiling or something to let them know that I was prepared to defend my person against harrassment. Later that same night, I saw this guy get beaten down on the sidewalk by these two guys. If he had a gun, he could have put a permanent end to those punks bullying days. Bravo to Mr. Kavanagh and the true patriots that make up the NRA. It's time people start realizing that the 2nd amendment is by far the most important amendment in the constitution.
29 June 2009
at 11:21 p.m.

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notajayhawk (Anonymous) says…

Some of the most amusing moments from my years as a bartender came from listening to some of the inebriated regulars complaining they should be allowed to have their guns with them in the bar, in case someone came in and tried to rob the place. Don't get me wrong - I have no problem with CCW or the right to self-defense. I do have a slight conceptual issue with someone too drunk to stay planted in his barstool with the assistance of both hands opening fire in a crowded nightclub. My guess is that the would-be robber would be the least likely person in the bar to be harmed.

What brought it over the top, however, was one particular regular who was blind (in addition to being one of the afore-mentioned regularly inebriated patrons), carrying the argument a step further - that *blind* people should be allowed to carry guns for self defense.
4 July 2009
at 5:28 p.m.

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kcbound06 (Anonymous) says…

To clarify…

1) Guns are NOT allowed in “bars”. Remember that's bars and not restaurants. There's a difference. The Bottleneck is a bar, AppleBee's is a restaurant. Bars derive their money primarily from alcohol; restaurants primarily from food. That's the distinction.

2) Flashing a gun is illegal by definition and if you do you shouldn't have a license anyway. If you're flashing your gun you're probably the same bonehead who shoots their gun sideways like in Miami Vice. Unless you have justification to pull your gun and use it legally the purpose is concealment, not intimidation. If I ever see you doing that I'm going to either take it away from you or call the police myself.

3) Businesses in Lawrence need to be more consistent with how they post “no carry” signs. The correct and legal sign is from the KS Attorney General's office and it is 8x8, black gun, red circle, on a white background. Some businesses like Lawrence Memorial Hospital post 4x4 signs with white letters on a clear glass background. wrong lmh! You're not a state building so you have to follow the rules like everyone else.

4) Having a CCW permit and having a beer is illegal, not to mention stupid. Remember, if you have to actually use your gun for whatever reason your reflexes are slowed. So you say one beer doesn't affect me. It may not, but that's not the point. The I-70 killer could come in a shoot 5 people right in front of you and even though you shot back in self defense or the defense of others some lawyer will still ask you on the stand if you'd been drinking. It's the same reason you DON'T wear a t-shirt, even if it's funny, about squirrels as speed bumps or whatever if you're carrying. I guarantee someone with a camera (phone) will take your picture with you, your gun, and your “funny” shirt, and it will be all over the news in an hour. The most important reason is still because you will be sued. Let me say that again, you will be sued. You can be 101% justified but someone somewhere will sue you. Expect it. Remember the two gunman in LA that held up the bank with automatic weapons? The LA police finally shot him in the street when he tried to steal a passerby's truck? He laid there for 40 minutes and the LAPD was sued because he “didn't receive prompt medical treatment.” Dah what? He just went on a shooting spree. (See the TV movie 44 minutes.) Bottom line, that “one beer” will be all over the media.

Please be respectful of CCW laws, and most importantly, practice, practice, practice. I think CCW is a good thing, but training is essential and I unfortunately will also be the first to admit that there needs to be more training than just the mandatory 8 hours.

Be safe! KC