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Archive for Friday, June 12, 2009

Museum gunman may reflect growing racial turmoil in U.S.

June 12, 2009

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Crazies. Lone nut jobs. Isolated loonies. Those are frequent descriptions of people like James von Brunn, the 88-year-old white supremacist who is charged with opening fire at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum and killing a black guard.

Others believe he represents something more dangerous: a growing racist movement motivated by a number of converging factors, including the first black president.

The potential for an increase in violence from whites who feel they are slipping from power is high, according to experts from across the ideological spectrum.

“I believe we are headed for an unprecedented level of conflict and racial turmoil,” said Carol Swain, author of the 2002 book “The New White Nationalism in America” and a professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt University.

Swain cited anger over immigration, growing minority populations, high minority crime rates, the economy and multiculturalism as forces driving people toward racist extremism.

“It seems like the tables have turned for some white people, and they have no recourse except desperation,” Swain said.

An April intelligence assessment by the Department of Homeland Security said right-wing extremists could use the troubled economy and the election of President Barack Obama to recruit members.

Former FBI agent Danny Coulson, who headed the terrorism investigation of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and now runs a security firm, said federal agents have increased their monitoring of white supremacist groups since Obama’s election, and have noticed increased chatter and membership.

“These neo-Nazi groups have been laying in the weeds for a long time,” he said. “Then you have a president who comes in who’s an African-American and they hate that.”

The concept of defending white interests has broadened beyond neo-Nazis.

Louis R. Andrews, chairman of a white advocacy group called the National Policy Institute, said he does not support violence, but he expects to see increased racial animosity that will eventually manifest itself in more physical attacks.

“There’s no such thing as post-racial,” Andrews said, when asked about the claim that Obama’s election moved American race relations to a different place. “There’s conflict, conflict and continued conflict.”

Andrews said he voted for Obama because “I want to see the Republican Party destroyed, so it can be reborn as a party representing the interests of white people, and not entrenched corporate elites.”

Swain’s book argues that many people with “white nationalist” views do not fit the extremist stereotype — they are professors, scientists, elected officials.

Some people can be “pushed over the edge” into extreme views by stresses such as the loss of a job or another traumatic event,” said psychologist David Eigen.

“Men aren’t supposed to feel powerless or helpless,” Eigen said. “When a man starts to feel that, he feels angry and ashamed inside, and he can project it outward. For hundreds of years, Jews have been a convenient target. So let’s blame the Jews.”

“There’s something festering in society today,” he said. “A boil has been broken. We want to put a Band-Aid on it, but it’s too late.”

Comments

igby 5 years, 7 months ago

First off, Obama is not a black president, there's nothing black about him, he's barely what anyone would consider, a typical American black man. It's not about Obama, at all. In four years he will be history and another will take his place. I really doubt he makes a second term because the economy is not going to heal it's self in four short years, it will take decades to absorb the damage. Obama, surely has a good heart and I'm sure he is a good man. His party will be his weakness and handicap. The liberal agenda of the dems will try to take too much too quickly and will loose all their gain because the economy will not support their goals. It will get much worse and for longer. This is not just an American problem it's rooted in the whole world economy.

The school shootings and mass murder we have experienced in the past decade is a sign of social decay. Tillers killer and this old man had nothing to lose nor nothing to gain but decayed mentally until their breaking point.

The wing nuts come in all shapes and sizes and of every age and political back ground. There could be more of them for sure but like every trend it plays out with the wind of the moment and tomorrow brings even new challenges which we soon forget the names of the wing nuts.

igby 5 years, 7 months ago

But the biggest wing nuts are hidden in places of power and they have their own agenda. Their in law enforcement (Waco). There in the Senate and House and heads of state. They're judges, lawyers and organizations who are funded from politics and last but not least, they write story's in newspapers just like this one. Who's goal is to make you think that one wing nut is the tip of the ice berg in a looming national enemy of mass size, like all white people.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 5 years, 7 months ago

This issue should not surprise anyone, the bigotry, hatred and stupidity that was exhibited in some areas during the recent election was clear indication that race and class relations in American Society have started to reach a new low. The very notion that President Obama's race was a factor in the election, is clear indication of the twisted and debauched attitudes that still exist in some parts of America today. The parents who continue to rail against any group that they blame for their own collosal ignorance and instill these values in their childern assures that a new and virulent generation of racial hatred and violence will continue to be assured in our future. The main ingredient in this issue, as I see it is ignorance. The utter failure of persons to learn and gain knowledge, relying instead on their prejudices and dislikes to provide for them a ready excuse for just being plain stupid. In this town where an academic institution is one of the main elements, I regularly hear comments about those "damned college kids" and those"intellectuals". It would seem that being an "intellectual" is on par with being a "liberal" or "abortion advocate". But the main reason is simply fear. Fear that a person is indeed ignorant and stupid, and being so breeds fear and contempt of anyone who they might view as being "educated and intellectual". Perhaps this is the dividing line and given the decline of our school systems and educational institutions, the continuance of such destructive attitudes is assured for centuries, at least until the Chinese fininsh buying our country and then eliminating all those who disagree with THEM. See there, I just slammed another race, I guess we have met the enemy and they is us.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

"the bigotry, hatred and stupidity that was exhibited in some areas during the recent election was clear indication that race and class relations in American Society have started to reach a new low"

Aww, come on, frwent. A new low? Let's ease the hyperbole, pretty please. I agree with most of your post, ignorance is and has always been behind racism and bigotry, and will continue to keep the issue alive. But please don't even pretend that whatever 'surge' there's been of late is anywhere close to how badly it's been in the past. We as a nation have painfully risen up through our "low point" in race relations. It ain't perfect and, IMO, never will be 'cuz we just can't eliminate all ignorance. But our low point was when blacks were considered nothing but chattel, not today when a black man is leader of the free world. Perspective, por favor.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 7 months ago

According to the AG, armed Black Panthers practicing voter intimidation are okay! Get your nightsticks & jackboots ready for the mid-term elections.

gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 7 months ago

Swain? What a fantastic and unbiased source: http://www.carolmswain.com/

I'm curious, why no mention of the Arkansas shooter? The motivation seems to be the same sort of blind bigotry that motivated von Brunn.

verity 5 years, 7 months ago

Jaywalker, I often don't agree with you, but on this one I do. Too much hyperbole and too much fear.

When we are afraid we are more easily controllable. Fearmongering also seems to bring up ratings.

Sooner or later we all die. The living now is all we have. I prefer not to do it in fear.

Practicality 5 years, 7 months ago

Logrithmic,

Start by joining and donating to the NRA. Make sure you take some safety classes!

May my God Bless you loggie!

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 7 months ago

“Men aren’t supposed to feel powerless or helpless,” Eigen said. “When a man starts to feel that, he feels angry and ashamed inside, and he can project it outward. For hundreds of years, Jews have been a convenient target. So let’s blame the Jews.” Oh, yeah? So there are no Jewish men? This statement does not make sense to me on any level.

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

The "racial tension" is so great, in fact, America voted Barack Obama to be President. Um, okay.

Except for the loons who are upset about a black President, racial relations are actually continuing to improve in most of America. Younger generations are even more accepting of diversity than their elders, and this trend will continue despite what some parents might tell their children. However, stupidity and bigotry will never go away fully, as some of the posts on this site regularly demonstrate. Nor will the desire to blame others for your own failings.

RoeDapple 5 years, 7 months ago

log - marksmanship classes 2nd Tuesday of next week. We'll teach you "Right"

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

I don't doubt some of the fringe groups have picked up their intensity. I've talked before about how the 'leader' of the Aryan Nation was quoted as saying he was excited and glad BO was running for Prez 'cuz their new membership had spiked in response to his candidacy. But I don't believe there's been an increase in such idiots, just a few more have 'come out of the closet', so to speak.

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

log, just remember, guns don't kill people ... oh wait, yes they do. That is why people have them.

Mixolydian 5 years, 7 months ago

beatrice (Anonymous) says…

Except for the loons who are upset about a black President, racial relations are actually continuing to improve in most of America.

True.

Flap Doodle 5 years, 7 months ago

"beatrice (Anonymous) says… log, just remember, guns don't kill people … oh wait, yes they do. That is why people have them."

There's my nomination for the most staggeringly stupid comment on this board in the past year.

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

boo hoo snap, somebody said something nasty about your precious little guns. boo hoo ;`- (

Corey Williams 5 years, 7 months ago

ArumerZwarteHoop (Anonymous) says… "Born in 1920, he fought in WWII he witness first hand what has happened to America, maybe we should not totally write him off as a lunatic."

So you don't think he was a lunatic?

"The Holocaust is a lie," the note (allegedly written by Von Brunn) read. "Obama was created by Jews. Obama does what his Jew owners tell him to do. Jews captured America's money. Jews control the mass media."

Is everyone else ignoring this moron or agreeing with them?

begin60 5 years, 7 months ago

This is a white supremacist problem--which means not only ethnic and racial minorities are under attack but also women and anyone who doesn't completely fit white, male, able-bodied, middle-class discriminatory standards.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

Saying that guns are responsible for killing is like saying matches are responsible for arson.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

"Jewish people are head of the federal reserve (Bernake, Greenspan), The owners of every major news outlet are also jewish.

This is a fact, do what you want with it."

I've been calling others out for fire-starting today, Arumer, but this might top 'em all. Come on, man, who do you think you're kidding? Stating "This is a fact..." and leaving the statement 'open-ended', as if to say "I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin", is exceptionally weak and sad. I strongly feel that most calls for 'racism' on these boards are pathetic tripe, but you've just come close to justifying those that salivate at the chance of such personification what they live to sling. If you've got a point to make with that, make it. Otherwise, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, shut your !@$#$ pie hole. There are plenty of jackasses on this site who post merely to incite and rankle, like 7 year olds irking a sibling just to watch them react. Don't be a jackass.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

Marion,

I'm well aware of what you're referencing and I don't dispute what Arumer states as "fact". My problem is with motive and something that seems akin to race-baiting in his post.

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

jay: "Saying that guns are responsible for killing is like saying matches are responsible for arson."

True. Which means -- Providing potential killers and lunatics ready access to guns is like handing a flamethrower to an arsonist.

Do you support the right of people diagnosed with a predisposition to be arsonists to own flamethrowers?

To pretend that guns are just a simple tool is just that -- pretending. Guns make killing easier. This is the reason they are made. If you use a gun as it was intended, if you use it properly for what it was designed to do, it will kill someone. Matches are at least made for another reason -- lighting candles, the pilot light on the stove, a cigar, etc..., and only through their mis-use would one start an arson fire. If you kill someone with a gun, that means you used the gun for what it was designed to do. Or do you think it was just designed to put holes in paper target?

Further, using your logic in the context of gun ownership in America, hand grenades don't just go off on their own, so I guess everyone should have access, correct? Rocket launchers? Bazookas? Where do you draw your line?

Flamethrowers don't kill people ...

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

bea,

My 'logic' had nothing to do with the context of gun ownership in America. Your argument devolved quickly into semantics and that's a waste of time. However...

"Do you support the right of people diagnosed with a predisposition to be arsonists to own flamethrowers?"

Whaaat? There's so many things wrong with that 'question' I don't know where to start. First, I never broached the subject of gun rights, ownership, etc. Rail on someone else with that. Second, who on these boards ever "supported the right of people diagnosed with a predisposition to be gun murderers"? I actually didn't know that had been a topic of discussion, nor that it was possible to "diagnose" someone as having the "predisposition" to commit murder with a handgun, unless of course a specific person has been tried and convicted of such before, in which case they aren't allowed to have a gun, period. It's the law: Felon = no guns.
If you're against all gun ownership, well, good luck with that. That fight will be like shootin' bb's at a tank for all its effectiveness, but knock yourself out.
I'd also add, if your disfavor of guns is due to the violence sprung by a very small percentage of our society, I'd point to the "Old Wild West". It wasn't nearly so 'wild' as movies and such tend to show it, and that's because EVERYone had guns. Most people are less likely to shoot 'em up if they know someone's gonna be shooting back.

"hand grenades don't just go off on their own, so I guess everyone should have access, correct? Rocket launchers? Bazookas? Where do you draw your line?"

Again...my logic? Please point to where I said anything about who or what people "should have access" to, then we'll talk. But please don't attempt to paint a position for me, nor drag me into some non-sensical, pointless argument over the distribution of rocket launchers and bazookas. That's just dumb.

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

In other words jay, you made a blanket statement comparing guns with matches, but you don't want to support it. Fair enough. My mistake to have considered your giving further thought to your comment.

Guns for EVERYone will make America safe! Got it.

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

First off ... I have minions?

Cool.

However, I'm not speaking for other "liberals," just myself. Guns are indeed and in fact designed to kill people. They have no other purpose. They aren't primarily a kitchen utensil, like a knife, or a sporting instrument, like a bat, both of which can be used to kill, but that isn't their primary function.

To say that guns don't kill people is like saying matches don't start fires. They do, in both instances. If they didn't, soldiers wouldn't carry guns and smokers wouldn't carry matches. The fact that they don't do it all by themselves is just a semantic game akin to saying pit bulls don't bite people when nobody is around, so they aren't really dangerous after all.

If you are so scared to lose your 2nd amendment right that you can't admit the truth about why guns exist and why they are made, that is a real shame. That just proves how irrational some people are when it comes to the best ways to protect our society against guns falling into the wrong hands.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

"In other words jay, you made a blanket statement comparing guns with matches,"

No, bea. Read the line again. I made a simple comparison which, if you can read AND comprehend, (I'm still holdin' out hope for ya) puts the responsibility on the person committing the crime, not the inanimate object. That's it, th th th that's all folks!

"Guns for EVERYone will make America safe! Got it."

If that's what you read into my comment about the old West, I apoIogize, bea, the concept was obviously too complicated for ya. I was merely saying that guns aren't the problem, the people that will use guns in a violent fashion are 'cuz they're the only ones carrying.

I have no problems discussing something with you amicably, bea. But please refrain from trying to pull me into some pre-conceived notion of what you 'think' my argument or position is merely because you've got your shorts in a twist.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

"Guns are indeed and in fact designed to kill people. They have no other purpose."

Really? So I've been misusing my shotgun and rifle all these years?

TacoBob 5 years, 7 months ago

Beatrice's comments on race relations are correct. Took an awful lot of 'non-blacks' to get Obama elected. If anything, relations are improving on many levels.

There is one entity, one ideology, one person that is responsible for the shooting: The man who did it.

Another mentally unstable person, and the typical talking heads that want to connect dots that don't connect. Go back to your lives citizens, nothing to see here.

ASBESTOS 5 years, 7 months ago

How is this racial, they loon was PO'ed at Jewish People. Last I checked that was a religion and not a race.

Where are these MSM reporters getting their info, crayon boxes?

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

"What does the shooting committed by the Muslim convert at the recuruting centre show us, I wonder?"

It shows us that religious fanatics will go to extremes to get their way, and if you allow religious fanatics access to guns they will use them to kill others. We can only be thankful that more weren't killed.

jay, you are correct. I took your simple line and took it to an extreme by adding others' views about guns to your line. I apologize and you were right for calling me on it. My response back to your line initially should have been simply:

To say that guns don't kill people is like saying matches don't start fires. They do, in both instances, even if they require someone to bring the action into being.

Now, you didn't make it clear for what purpose you use your rifles and shotguns, so excuse me if I am incorrect when I assume you shoot targets. If you are shooting targets, and I'd hope all who own would, that doesn't mean you are using them to do what they are designed to do. They aren't designed to put holes in pieces of paper, even if they do so effectively. Shooting targets is simply practice so you can better use the guns accurately for what they are actually designed for, which is to kill. You can use your pistol as a hammer, but that isn't using it for what it was designed for either. And if I was mistaken and you are actually hunting, well, that is killing, is it not?

To clarify my position, I don't think all people who own guns are "gun nuts," I don't disagree with conceal and carry laws and do think we have far too many band-aid type gun restrictions aimed at stopping gun violence that do no real good for anyone. Yet we do have too many killings by people using guns in our country and the response of "what can we do about crazy?" just doesn't cut it as being a reasonable solution, in my opinion. There must be a better solution to help contain the problem, while still acknowledging the 2nd ammendment, don't you think?

Or maybe there isn't and I'm just being idealistic. Maybe it really is all just too late.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

beatrice,

Without any condescension implied, inferred.....whatever....THAT's what I'm talkin' about!!!!! Now that was a good post, I appreciate the apology and your re-statement.

"To say that guns don't kill people is like saying matches don't start fires. They do, in both instances, even if they require someone to bring the action into being"

I do agree that guns make 'killing' more 'convenient'. My thing is that people are always to blame. I own guns, I don't kill people. People rail against guns as 'evil', I just don't see it that way because that's putting emotion/personification on an object. I don't believe anyone should be allowed to have an automatic or even a semi-auto weapon. They serve no purpose and should not be distributed outside the military.
I shoot at targets, paper/skeet/ stumps to sight my weapons. I use my rifle and shotgun to hunt and I utilize all that I can from every kill. I am not a 'sport' hunter and never will be. As to coming up with a way to 'stop the crazies', your guess is as good as mine. From a territorial, 'macho' aspect, I wish every 'azzwippey' who pulled a weapon on an innocent person had another weapon shoved right up his nose, but I also understand the danger inherent in that type of society. We've evolved from that Wild West but unfortunately the lawless don't seem deterred by our progress. In Atlanta it's a city joke to walk into a mall and read the signs upon entry that say "Firearms are not allowed", as if the madman or criminal willing to commit a crime would think twice if he saw such a sign. Now, the good samaritan might think twice 'cuz he's likely to get sued no matter what transpires, and suddenly you have a nasty hole in the 'system'. But how to fix it without taking away certain rights? I have no clue. They can legislate behavior and 'action', but those that operate under the philosophy that they have nothing to lose won't be deterred.

Thanks again, bea. I truly appreciate your response and fairness.

Corey Williams 5 years, 7 months ago

ArumerZwarteHoop (Anonymous) says… "You can dislike the Jewish aristocracy that controls our media, money, and foreign policy but still love Jewish People."

Just the simple fact that you believe there is a "Jewish aristocracy" puts you in the same boat as von Brunn. You don't hate Jews, but you believe they control the world?

Corey Williams 5 years, 7 months ago

Arumer, you didn't say "...that european controlled the world in 1990...", you said "...Jewish aristocracy that controls our media, money, and foreign policy..."

I never mentioned european people or advocated the killing of such. Don't put words in my mouth if you can't handle being labeled as anti-semite, conspiracy theorist, or just plain crazy.

And, yes, you are all of the above.

Corey Williams 5 years, 7 months ago

Sorry, you said, "...that european controlled the world in 1900...", not 1990

beatrice 5 years, 7 months ago

jay, in my opinion, mandatory training and registration akin to what the c&c folks go through must be required of all gun owners. On the return, people should then be allowed to carry just about anywhere they choose, except for airplanes. If convicted of a crime, you had better turn over your registered guns or years are added to the sentence. If found with an unregistered gun in your possession, mandatory years in prison, and if you use a gun while committing a crime, 10 years minimum in addition to the charges on the crime.

This won't stop all random gun violence, of course, but over time I think it would help take guns out of criminals hands and keep them only in the hands and in the collections of law abiding citizens as it is their Constitutional right. There is give and take in this plan, which seems reasonable to me.

I'm sure we'll be provided the opportunity to discuss this further in the future on some other gun related story.

jaywalker 5 years, 7 months ago

bea,

The inherent problem with program training and registration is that too many can circumvent such a system. Everyone railed about that nut at Va. Tech buying guns from a store in Va, and he had a history of mental issues. Thing is, you or I could go to a gun show tomorrow and buy whatever we want from other people just walking around the site, not the vendors. I've seen people walking through the booths with a rifle slung over there shoulder and a 'For Sale' sign taped to the barrel.

Also, I just don't think criminals give a damn. NYC has the toughest handgun laws in the world; caught with an unlicensed weapon is minimum 1 year in jail. Loaded and the prison time goes up. And still the crime rate is through the roof. It's like the death penalty; those willing to do such or acting in the heat of passion just aren't swayed by the ultimate consequence.

All I'm sayin' is I don't have the first clue how to make things better.

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