Archive for Friday, January 16, 2009

Hamas tries to drag Israel into a trap

January 16, 2009

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At her confirmation hearings Tuesday, Hillary Clinton insisted President-elect Barack Obama would not give up on Mideast peace — even though the region’s problems seem “intractable.”

Nothing seems more intractable than the Israeli-Palestinian struggle. At the moment, hundreds of Palestinian civilians are dying in the crossfire in Gaza, as Israeli troops fight Hamas militants in an effort to stop them from rocketing civilians inside Israel.

Cease-fire talks are under way in Egypt. If no halt has been arranged before Obama takes office, Clinton’s first foreign-policy task should be to expedite one. For if this battle goes on much longer, it will produce the exact opposite of what Israel and the supportive Bush administration intended — by handing a victory to Hamas and Iran.

Indeed, Hamas — which refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist — is trying to drag Israel into a trap. Its fighters want to lure Israeli soldiers into Gaza’s crowded cities and refugee camps, causing more Palestinian civilian deaths and exacerbating an already awful humanitarian crisis. Hamas suicide bombers would then have a chance to kill many more Israeli soldiers.

An Israeli move into the cities and camps would create further uproar in the Arab world. No matter that Hamas operates from civilian areas, violating the rules of war; that would not ameliorate the televised scenes of civilian suffering that would follow an Israeli urban invasion.

Such a move by Israel would undermine moderate rulers in Egypt and Jordan, who dislike Hamas, but whose people are aghast at the scenes from Gaza. Meantime, Iran’s ayatollahs would gain popularity on the Arab street for their support of Hamas.

More Gaza carnage would also undercut any chance of reviving the Arab League peace plan promoted by Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah, which calls for recognition of Israel by all Arab states as part of a two-state solution.

The one thing an extended invasion of Gaza would not do is enable Israel to deal a final blow to Hamas. Unless Israel were prepared to reoccupy Gaza, some variant of Hamas would return once Israeli soldiers pulled out of the strip. Nor is it feasible for Israel to forcibly return governance of Gaza to Mahmoud Abbas, the moderate leader of the Palestinian Authority. Abbas would be reviled as an Israeli puppet if his men returned to Gaza behind Israel’s tanks.

All this is not to say that Hamas needn’t be confronted. Endless rocket fire on Israeli towns has turned even Israeli doves against the peace process, raising fears that any withdrawal from the West Bank would put rockets within shooting distance of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Now that Hamas has been weakened, Obama and Clinton should look at Gaza’s history for the best way to vanquish the movement: The key lies in convincing the local population that Hamas militants are killing chances for peace.

In 1996, the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat conducted his only serious crackdown on Hamas. Why? Because the Palestinian population demanded the crackdown after Hamas bombed two Israeli buses, risking hopes that the Oslo peace process would lead to a two-state solution. The crackdown came too late; the bombings persuaded Israelis to oust the dovish Prime Minister Shimon Peres and vote in the hawkish Benjamin Netanyahu.

In 2005, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon withdrew Israeli troops from Gaza unilaterally, rather than coordinating withdrawal with the moderate Abbas and giving Abbas’ Fatah party credit.

The unilateral withdrawal permitted Hamas to claim it had driven Israel out by force, and that Abbas’ strategy of negotiation was pointless. This, in turn, helped propel Hamas to victory in 2006 elections and to its ultimate takeover of Gaza. The freezing of the peace process, plus continued Israeli settlement-building, further undermined Abbas.

Hamas’ popularity in Gaza had been dropping before the Israeli invasion, and new Palestinian elections are scheduled this spring. How can Gazans and West Bankers once more be encouraged to see Hamas as an obstacle to peace?

An invasion of Gaza’s cities will force Palestinians back into Hamas’ arms. A cease-fire and a new peace push by Obama and Clinton, along with an opening of Gaza’s sealed borders, could change the political climate. In tandem (let’s hope) with a gutsy new premier after February elections in Israel, these shifts would undercut and isolate Hamas.

— Trudy Rubin is a columnist for the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Comments

David Omar 6 years, 4 months ago

The way to peace in the MIddle East is not through punitive and destructive submission of the Palestinians. The people of Israel are trying to make a country in an area that doesn't want them there. Their claims to the land have been dispelled by researchers who conclude that the Palestinians are really the Children of Israel in the Old Testament that have embraced Islam in the more modern era. So the Israelis are fighting their ancestors.But to subdue the Palestinians, Israel should take a different tact. First they should provide food, clean water and good living conditions so that groups like Hamas won't have a foot hold. The Israelis did it the wrong way by forcing their way into the Middle East. There could have been a better way to find them a place for their "Jewish State" in a place where they were welcomed and didn't neet to fight every day for their existence. I put "Jewish State" in quotes because the Jewish religion prohibits usurping other's lands and doesn't say anything about God giving this land to anyone.

jonas_opines 6 years, 4 months ago

Always fun when people essentially post "Hi, I'm an idiot and I don't pay attention."

jonas_opines 6 years, 4 months ago

well, that was incomplete. Always fun when people essentially post "Hi, I'm a racist idiot and I don't pay attention."

Satirical 6 years, 4 months ago

jonas_opines....Ironically, you are the only one who has posted such comment.

jaywalker 6 years, 4 months ago

Rubin's got bats in her belfry. How the hell can she write this............."Hamas....fighters want to lure Israeli soldiers into Gaza’s crowded cities and refugee camps, causing more Palestinian civilian deaths and exacerbating an already awful humanitarian crisis"And then be thought of as credible, or even sane, when she writes this a few paragraphs later......."How can Gazans and West Bankers once more be encouraged to see Hamas as an obstacle to peace?"Perhaps she's just stoned. How can Hamas ever be seen as anything other than an obstacle to peace?

Flap Doodle 6 years, 4 months ago

In other Islamic news:"A Somali politician has been executed after being accused of changing his religion by working with non-Muslim Ethiopian forces."http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7833621.stm

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"Nothing seems more intractable than the Israeli-Palestinian struggle. At the moment, hundreds of Palestinian civilians are dying in the crossfire in Gaza, as Israeli troops fight Hamas militants in an effort to stop them from rocketing civilians inside Israel."I wonder why Trudy neglects to mention one important fact-- the rocket attacks only began after Israel, on Nov. 4th, broke a 4-month ceasefire, knowing full well that it would almost certainly trigger renewed rocket attacks on its own civilians."Endless rocket fire on Israeli towns has turned even Israeli doves against the peace process, raising fears that any withdrawal from the West Bank would put rockets within shooting distance of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv."Yep, that's precisely what Israel wanted when they ended the ceasefire. With a new US president coming in, and Israeli elections in less than a month, the warmongers in charge needed this war."Indeed, Hamas — which refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist — is trying to drag Israel into a trap. Its fighters want to lure Israeli soldiers into Gaza’s crowded cities and refugee camps, causing more Palestinian civilian deaths and exacerbating an already awful humanitarian crisis."If Israel and the US want Hamas to conduct a "fair" fight, then give them the same $3 billion a year that Israel gets. Otherwise, this claim is just plain sick. And anyone who thinks that the goal of Israel's invasion isn't collective punishment, explain the more than 300 dead children. And go read Thomas Friedman in the NY Times, who endorses this very clearly terroristic policy.

jonas_opines 6 years, 4 months ago

satirical: I save that type of commentary for when it's deserved, but if you want to actually argue with me about how previous comment to mine was not racist and idiotic by its nature, I'm perfectly willing.Obama is not a muslim. To insist that he is comes from not paying attention, from paying attention but not comprehending, or from dishonesty. The insinuation that muslims only side with other muslims (IE, that they are racist), is simply racist.Now, justify your own comment.

Satirical 6 years, 4 months ago

jonas_opines....Thank you for clarifying, I now see where you were coming from. I didn't realize you were referencing Larry_the_Moocher's comment, which to be honest, I didn't understand until now. For future reference, it would be less confusing if you started your comment with the name of the person which they are directed. Having said that, I still do not completely agree Larry's comment was racist since there are Musilms of every race. But given the general implied nature of Larry's comment I agree it was improper and no longer wish to defend it.

jonas_opines 6 years, 4 months ago

Cool then. I'll keep your suggestion in mind.

Leslie Swearingen 6 years, 4 months ago

jonas_opines, you could argue the case that Obama is not, has never been a Muslim until you turn blue in the face, and some people are not going to hear you. I could tell these people to read about the many wars between the Shiites and the Sunni but they probably wouldn't. What do you think about the Sufi?It seems to me that burning and mutilating babies and children is not the best way to get the citizens of Gaza to turn their support from Hamas to Israel.I know that the radicals have always hidden behind others, even their own families, to further their cause.In urban warfare there are no civilians, we have to accept this.I have always supported Israel, but this time I truly believe they have crossed a line.

jonas_opines 6 years, 4 months ago

cleo: "you could argue the case that Obama is not, has never been a Muslim until you turn blue in the face, and some people are not going to hear you."True, but some people will. (percentages might be a little skewed on internet forums, but whatever)

Satirical 6 years, 4 months ago

The problem I see from Israel's perspective is the reasonable alternatives available. The article does a fine job of discussing the possible costs of Isreal's continued assualt, but it does not discuss the possible benefits of such assault or more importantly, the viable alternatives for Israel and the costs and benefits of each of those. If the implied alternative is Israel pulling out, will that stop the rocket attacks? If not, then Israel will just have to start the offensive over again, since I think most people agree they have a right to defend their own citizens. Should Israel get a cease-fire agreement with Hamas until they pull out? I think so.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

The drone about "rocket attacks" is wholly disingenuous. There had been no rocket attacks for 4 months, until, and not coincidentally, the US elections were over, and Israel attacked Gaza on Nov. 4th.The warmongers in Israel, as well as those in Hamas, need war in order to maintain their grip on power.

jaywalker 6 years, 4 months ago

Just when you think bozo couldn't say anything more dumb than he has before................."If Israel and the US want Hamas to conduct a “fair” fight, then give them the same $3 billion a year that Israel gets"With a mind this sharp it's amazing you don't just walk in front of highway traffic, bozo. This isn't a game of tit for tat, not an argument between siblings. And Israel has never called for the annihilation of another people, religion, or country. We fund and arm Israel so they can continue to exist. Do you really believe that they'd still be around if we didn't? Someone picks a fight with you and fights like a coward..... you wanna give 'em a bat so it's a 'fair fight'? Brillant.And quit spewing your pathetic lies and re-write of fact. You're a one-man affront to intelligence. Israel did not break this latest cease-fire, no matter how much you wish it to be so. Forgive me for another maxie-esque posting....http://worldfocus.org/blog/2008/12/18/ceasefire-between-israel-and-hamas-breaks-down/3302/"The Palestinian group Hamas declared an end to a ceasefire with Israel, saying that the truce expiring on Friday will not be renewed. The development could lead to a violent new phase in the long conflict between Israel and Palestinian militants"http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/rocket_attacks_sderot.htm"December 24, 2008: After a six-month negotiated lull in rocket attacks, Hamas resumed its campaign of terror by launching dozens of rockets and mortar shells on Israeli civilians. On December 24 alone, more than 60 rockets and mortar shells rained down on major civilian population centers in the southern Israeli cities of Ashkelon and Netivot"http://www.newsnet14.com/2008/12/us-urges-hamas-to-cease-rocket-attacks-on-israel/ "The U.S. on Saturday blamed the militant group Hamas for breaking a cease-fire and attacking Israel, which retaliated with strikes of its own during what became the single bloodiest day of fighting in years"

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

I'm not defending Hamas or its tactics, nor am I advocating giving Hamas $3 billion a year in military aid, jaywalker.I'm merely pointing out that Israel is just as responsible for the horrible state of affairs in that region as the Palestinians and other Arabs are, and they are responsible for many, many times as much death and destruction, paid for with US tax dollars.So why don't you cut out the "sweet talking," and deal with the the actual facts, including the fact that it was Israel who broke the ceasefire on Nov. 4th, and again on Nov 17th, (need I point out that November precedes December?) and never did honor one of the main criteria of the ceasefire, namely, ending the siege on Gaza. That certainly doesn't justify Hamas's resumption of rocket attacks, but it's perfectly clear that Israel knew that would be the result, and actually wanted that for internal political reasons (the upcoming elections) and because there will soon be a new US president, and they wanted to murder as many Palestinians as they could beforehand.

Flap Doodle 6 years, 4 months ago

How sad for Iran."(IsraelNN.com) "Hamas took a gamble. We thought, at worst Israel will come and do something from the air - superficial." The so-called "Iranian Unit" of Hamas has been destroyed, according to Gaza sources cited Thursday by the Haaretz daily. The sources said most of the unit's 100 members were killed in fighting in the Zeytun neighborhood of Gaza City."http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129461

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"The sources said most of the unit's 100 members were killed in fighting in the Zeytun neighborhood of Gaza City.”"What about the more than 300 kids that have been killed? What military unit did they belong to?

1029 6 years, 4 months ago

As Americans, it is our patriotic duty to support Israel. If Israel wants to kill Palestian women and children, we should support them in them efforts. Israel is a great friend of the United States. It's unpatriotic--not to mention anti-semitic--to even begin to think that Israel may be in the wrong. Israel isn't stupid--it knows that the only way to achieve peace is kill the opposition. This only makes sense. As a patriotic American who respects his government, I say that any friend of the United States is a friend of mine. Go, Israel! Fight, Israel! You can win because God is on your side!

jaywalker 6 years, 4 months ago

"I'm merely pointing out that Israel is just as responsible for the horrible state of affairs in that region as the Palestinians and other Arabs are"Buuuzzzzz! Thanks for playing, but BS. Israel is not responsible for their neighbors' hatred towards them nor the threats to annihilate them merely for being Jewish. Sorry, bozo, but Israel didn't start these wars, these conflicts. Israel would love to live peacefully and without any strife. They're surrounded by those that wish them harm and take steps to cause it. You may not appreciate their 'disproportional' response, but then again you don't live there, or put up with constant threats and unaimed rockets.And spare me with the timetable-ceasefire garbage. Each side has broken ceasefires in the past, the present conflict began a couple weeks ago and was initiated by Hamas breaking the most recent 'truce'. You know this, lie about it repeatedly, and then when called on it Google your way to a transparent obfuscation. Pathetic."and actually wanted that for internal political reasons (the upcoming elections) and because there will soon be a new US president, and they wanted to murder as many Palestinians as they could beforehand."Yeah. You know 'internal political reasons' in Israeli government. And that Obama's gonna be in office so this is their "closing sale blowout". I highly suggest you get out of the house from time to time and GET HELP!And that last sentence? How much bigger of an a$!h&!% can you be? You've got to be maxing out shortly.

Satirical 6 years, 4 months ago

Still looks like no one can give me any viable alternatives...

TopJayhawk 6 years, 4 months ago

I say Isreal should just go in and kill 'em all. Make Gaza a parking lot. Put in parking meters, and take the proceeds and buy more ordinence, then they can go after HIzbollah, and their proxy Iran. Makes about as much sense as what you say Bozo.This really is the last vestage of WWII. And it goes on and on and on.

TopJayhawk 6 years, 4 months ago

Oh and MIMI's friend. You are nuts. We all know that the arabs and the jews are related, they split back when Abrahams' sons couldn't get along. This is not new or profound. Just keep twisting it around in your twisted brain.

madameX 6 years, 4 months ago

1029:I'm not nearly well informed enough to say with 100% certainty which side is right or wrong in this conflict, but for you to say that it's unpatriotic to even ask the question and offer the US government and Israel anything other than blind faith and support is insane. In general, just because a country is our ally does not necessarily mean that their motives are pure, and questioning our government and what it does is one of our most basic rights.

David Omar 6 years, 4 months ago

Obviously, Top Jayhawk you aren't very well educated. But that is all right."And Israel has never called for the annihilation of another people, religion, or country. We fund and arm Israel so they can continue to exist. Do you really believe that they'd still be around if we didn't? Someone picks a fight with you and fights like a coward….. you wanna give 'em a bat so it's a 'fair fight'?"This is absolutely correct, Israel has never called for the annihilation of the Palestinians, they just do it and take more and more land by building settlements. Hamas is not the answer, but killing 300 children isn't either. AND the war was started because the people in Gaza, just like the people in Israel, Need FOOD. They had to get some relief from the Israeli blockade.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

madameX-- I believe there was more than a hint of sarcasm in 1029's post. But it certainly sums up well the tribalistic reasoning of folks like jaywalker, who look no further into the situation than it takes to determine which team he wants to root for.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

“If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel.” - Knesset Chairman Benjamin NetanyahuA couple of problems with this assertion. One, compared to the Israelis, the Arabs already are disarmed. Two, no one is suggesting that Israel disarm-- they should just refrain from being so enthusiastic about testing those weapons on the Arabs imprisoned in Gaza.

jaywalker 6 years, 4 months ago

Spoken with the depth of a wading pool, bozo. Yes, of course I'm using 'tribalistic reasoning' and merely picking a side. I am not against the Palestinians as a whole, only against terrorism and regimes built soley for the annihilation of a race of people. Exposer's quote of Netanyahu is spot on. It is tragic what happens to innocent people in any conflict, but what are Israel's options? Lecompton sends suicide bombers to Lawrence pizza parlors, movie theaters, KU classrooms; fires rockets indiscriminately 'cuz any dead Lawrence resident is a 'victory'; openly calls for Lawrence to be completely removed from the map -- ya wanna send 'em hugs and kisses? There's no way to seperate the peaceful residents from the terrorists 'cuz the cowards hide amongst them, use them as shields, and then use their bodies for PR spin -- Lawrence should just sit on their thumbs? It's an untenable situation but inaction isn't simply not an option, it would be a crime against your own people. "Yeah, it sucks they won't stop trying to kill our children, but our hands are tied." It's called defending yourself! And if Palestinians didn't put a group like Hamas into power they might have more of a leg to stand on here, but when you pick a ruling body who's sole platform is jihad against your neighbor, sorry to say, you're culpable for the results.

1029 6 years, 4 months ago

Jaywalker makes a good point.How about this scenario:Lecompton is upset because in their fairy tale fantasy book, 8th and Massachusetts is the site of a holy place. However, over time those anti-fairy-tale-fantasy-book Lawrencians built a freakin' drug store on the spot of the holy land. Lecompton obviously has a right to kill anyone near that area in hopes of someday regaining the spot in which the main action contained in its fairy-tale-fantasy-book took place, right? This is really basic fundamental elementary education. Even the leftist and most intellectual among us should understand this; Unbelievable.

1029 6 years, 4 months ago

So, bozo, your depth truley is that of a wading pool. Someday (after you huff enough paint, perhaps) you will be as smart as Jaywalker and myself. I am obviously the most smartest, but jaywalker would come in as an honorary secondest.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

Let's complete your "analogy" with a couple of niggling details, jaywalker.1. Most of the residents of "Lecompton" used to reside in Lawrence, but were forced out at gunpoint by former residents of "Kansas City."2. They are held in a state of siege in "Lecompton" by the new residents of "Lawrence," whose weapons are supplied by "Kansas City."

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

Thanks for that "clarification." Now can you tell us what the definition of "is" is?

jaywalker 6 years, 4 months ago

  1. Most of the residents of “Lecompton” used to reside in Lawrence, but were forced out at gunpoint by former residents of “Kansas City.”Oh. So they are justified to try and and kill ANY Israeli at any time or place? History of the world, bozo. Some win, some lose, and there's been no land ever acquired by any country or group of peoples that wasn't done through war or violence. Not saying it's 'right', just that's the way it's always been. "2. They are held in a state of siege in “Lecompton” by the new residents of “Lawrence,” whose weapons are supplied by “Kansas City"Held in a state of siege? Gimme a break. Refer to Netanyahu's quote once again. If Palestinians and the Arab world would recognize Israel and quit attacking them they could all live in peace. It's regrettable that Israel was formed the way it was. There was no perfect solution to be had and at the time the world was willing to do what it took to try and comfort a people who'd just suffered more than anyone in history ever has. Persecuted for millenia and yet they still only seek to live in peace. Noone will let them. But begrudge them the fact that they're militarily strong, out of necessity mind you. And that the U.S. has helped them survive. They were attacked by nearly the entire Arab world less than a year after Green Line Israel was established. If we hadn't helped them there would have been another holocaust right then and there.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"Oh. So they are justified to try and and kill ANY Israeli at any time or place? "Your words, not mine, although you continually try to shove them down my throat. However, to humor you, I'll answer in two parts. 1. They don't try and kill any Israeli any time or place, and 2. no, they wouldn't be justified in doing so."Some win, some lose, and there's been no land ever acquired by any country or group of peoples that wasn't done through war or violence. Not saying it's 'right', just that's the way it's always been."There's a glaring inconsistency here. By this statement, Palestinians are completely justified in killing Israelis any time and any place, because that's just the way it's always been done. You can't have it both ways, jaywalker."If Palestinians and the Arab world would recognize Israel and quit attacking them they could all live in peace."Most of the Arab world has, de facto if not in fact, already recognized Israel's right to exist. And in relatively recent times, it's most often Israel who initiates attacks against Arabs, with much greater deadly and destructive force.If Israel would agree to withdraw to pre-1967 borders, as mandated by the UN, this could be resolved.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"It's regrettable that Israel was formed the way it was. There was no perfect solution to be had and at the time the world was willing to do what it took to try and comfort a people who'd just suffered more than anyone in history ever has."I think that was part of the motivation, but I think a much larger part of the motivation was that even the European victors of WWII had very strong anti-semitic leanings. What better way to get them out of Europe than let them settle on Palestinian land, which was colonial property Britain was anxious to get rid of.

jaywalker 6 years, 4 months ago

"Most of the Arab world has, de facto if not in fact, already recognized Israel's right to exist."That's highly arguable as while some politicians may put a kind face on it, terrorists are funded by numerous leaders and their camps are allowed to exist with in their borders. It's one thing to recognize Israel, it's another to continue to push for it's demise. As far as your last post I don't doubt that one bit either. Motivation's aside, where else but that territory was logical to create a state? Anywhere in the Middle East would have been met with the same repulsion and utter hatred.

J2od 6 years, 4 months ago

Let's face it: You've many groups and nationalities that have been fighting for centuries over there, rallying for the upper hand, each insisting that its social regime (whether legel, religious, or otherwise) is the one, and imposing it against all in near-enough proximity!How IS this EVER going to end? Brain-washed folks? Probably no more than folks here... Only over there, dying for a cause, no matter how poorly we understand it, seems fairly popular. Who says it's America's place to get involved at all?

jeremyhay 6 years, 4 months ago

The US supports Israel up to the hilt with US taxpayers' money. Why? See Salon.com for details of how the US even provides free gas for the Israeli military. 360 Gazan children killed by the US equipped Israeli air force and army. How much more US sponsored killing of innocents? Time for the US to say - Stop! - a negotiated peace with the 1967 borders and a dual state Jerusalem. The US has the power but is the dog being wagged by the Israeli tail. The US has spent 3 Trillion Dollars on a pointless war (Iraq) and continues to support (Democrats and GOP) the Israeli extremists - at massive cost to the US, and its good name. Why?

J2od 6 years, 4 months ago

As you can see, the government is providing welfare not just to the poor and lazy (which is NOT to say that about 5% of these recipients do merit temporary aid...) domestically, but also the hostile and unnecessary overseas!?! That's just great.All or none, folks.

Corey Williams 6 years, 4 months ago

Nice one Marion. Way to show your true colors.

Mike Blur 6 years, 4 months ago

Why does the USA blindly support a country that committed an egregious, intentional act war against US troops?http://www.gtr5.com/

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"That's highly arguable as while some politicians may put a kind face on it, terrorists are funded by numerous leaders and their camps are allowed to exist with in their borders. It's one thing to recognize Israel, it's another to continue to push for it's demise.""terrorism |ˈterəˌrizəm|nounthe use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."By this definition, Israel is quite guilty of committing terrorism, with the support of US taxpayers, and it's been decades since there has been any serious threat to Israel's continued existence." Motivation's aside, where else but that territory was logical to create a state?"The last 60 years of violence show that there was no logic involved, but it's largely moot at this point, with one exception-- the millions of dispossessed Palestinians struggling just to survive against the economic and military warfare Israel has waged against them for more the 60 years. Israel could likely resolve this by withdrawing to pre-1967 borders, as mandated by the UN, but the warmongers and hardline religious parties in Israel are just as whacked out as the militants in Hamas, and will never allow it-- unless the US threatens to withdraw the funding with which they periodically commit terrorism on Palestinians and Lebanese.

J2od 6 years, 4 months ago

just another bozo:Where'd you find that definition of terrorism? Seems as though, given that rather loose definition, it could include almost any nation with a military...Maybe we should caveat that with, "... except for American action..."Remember: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."I think violent acts of the most heinous and indirect (therefore COWARDLY) sort (i.e. 9-11) should be considered terrorism, as repurcussions are so difficult to deliver...

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 4 months ago

"Seems as though, given that rather loose definition, it could include almost any nation with a military…"There is usually a rather arbitrary distinction made with respect to military actions."Maybe we should caveat that with, “… except for American action…”"Many on this forum apply just such a caveat."I think violent acts of the most heinous and indirect (therefore cowardly) sort (i.e. 9-11) should be considered terrorism, as repurcussions are so difficult to deliver…"3000 civilians were killed on that day, which represents 1/1000 of one percent of the American population. Israel has killed over 500 Palestinian civilians in the last three weeks-- that's 33 times as many people, per capita, as died on 9/11. Put another way, Gaza has suffered 1 1/2 9/11's per day, every day, for the last three weeks. How can the people of Gaza feel anything other than terrorized?

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