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Archive for Saturday, January 10, 2009

5 people shot after high school ball game in Chicago

January 10, 2009

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— Five people were shot as spectators left a crowded high school basketball game Friday in what police called a possibly gang-related attack that sent panicked students running into a snowy street on the city’s South Side.

Five males — three in serious condition and two in critical — were taken from Paul Laurence Dunbar Vocational Career Academy around 8 p.m., said Chicago Fire Department spokeswoman Eve Rodriguez.

Hospital spokespeople said later that at least three were expected to be treated and released.

“It was crazy. It was like killers on the loose,” said Joshua Glaze, 15, a freshman at the school.

The game was in overtime and some students began to leave the building, Glaze said.

A vehicle then drove up and a person or people inside started shooting into the crowd, said Chicago Police Superintendent Jody Weis.

No suspect has been identified or arrested, but the shooting was “isolated” and possibly gang-related, Weis said.

Two hundred officers were in the area looking for suspects, he said.

Dunbar freshman Shaneisha Turman, 15, said she saw a silver truck pull up to a bus stop outside the school.

People inside the truck pretended to fire a gun and then “they really started shooting,” she told the Chicago Tribune.

People were shouting, “’They’re shooting!”’ Turman said. “It was a lot of people shouting and running.”

Police blocked access to streets at least two blocks from the high school to make way for ambulances and police cars.

Andres Durbak, director of the city schools’ Office of Safety and Security, said video taken in and around the school has been handed over to police. “This is a tragedy,” Durbak said.

Police spokeswoman Monique Bond declined to characterize the victims beyond gender and would not say whether they had attended the basketball game.

She added that they were “not necessarily students.”

The high school has about 1,600 students and is the alma mater of Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson.

Comments

bondmen 6 years, 1 month ago

In a city where strict gun control is proudly worn like a badge of honor among the elite and politicians, there appears to be little meaningful control where it is most needed - among the folks most dependent upon the government.

somebodynew 6 years, 1 month ago

Well beo - seeing as how this was at/near a High School, I would guess there were probably a lot of "no gun" signs posted. Sadly, the only one who don't pay attention to them are the thugs (who I am sure don't have their gun legally).

geekin_topekan 6 years, 1 month ago

"...(who I am sure don't have their gun legally)."+++Uh huh.They were legal guns at one time though right?Placed into irresponsible hands.Hold that owner liable.

compmd 6 years, 1 month ago

madmike, The gun restrictions have been in place long before Blagojevich and probably even before Ryan. The Illinois FOID requirements prevent citizens of Illinois from legally purchasing firearms and ammunition without a state police background check and fingerprinting.

Confrontation 6 years, 1 month ago

ese (Anonymous) says…"Probably a bunch of white christians at the root of the problem."I don't doubt that ese is a big fan of men like the BTK killer. There's an innocent white Christian for you! Oh, and we can't forget about the upstanding Mark Miller.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

beo- Try to pay attention this time. 1. As has been previously stated, this happened at a school. Federal Gun Free zones. So, there would be no legal gun possession. 2. Illinois has a limited concealed carry law which allows for carrying only and unloaded weapon. Frankly, I really don't think even you are stupid enough to draw an empty gun on someone who is shooting at you, but I have been wrong before.So, to answer your question, this happened where legal gun owners could not have legally stopped it. No matter how you try to spin it, this story is only one of many that prove gun control laws do not work. See bndairdundat's post.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

max1, Followed your link to review your "facts". Lots of fluf and no obvious direct link to your info. Wanna be more specific?

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

This is obviously Bush's fault. Guardian, don't hold your breath waitin' for Max to provide links that are worth visiting. Beobachter, it is a shame there wasn't someone there that could have returned fire. Might have got one of these low-lifes and helped to catch them all. Might have kept them from wounding 5 people. Ya know, the old West wasn't a big shoot 'em up like you see on TV. Know why? Everyone had guns.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Are you saying I called a bluff you can't back up there, max? There's a big difference between posting a link and cut and paste. Can you explain your li'l ol' temper tantrum?

Flap Doodle 6 years, 1 month ago

A few years ago, the O'dude handed out over $100 million through the Annenberg Challenge to improve Chicago public schools. Most of the money wound up in the pockets of comrades of Bill Ayers. The schools did not improve in any measurable way. Now he's taking his show nation-wide. Good luck, my fAmericans.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

So your answer to my question is "yes".

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

I don't know which is more sad, Max; that your panties get in such a wad over an innocuous line or that you have the time and/or no life to speak of so you can dig through the archives so deeply. You shouldn't get mad at me because you live in your mom's basement. I didn't put you there.And what the hell is all that drivel on the Earp's about? Do you believe that you rebutted what I said by citing one town that served as the only settlement for hundreds of miles with liquor and women, party central for roughnecks, cowboys, and drovers? Brilliant as ever, max. Whups. Your mom's callin', she must have got the crusts off that PB & J for ya. Bon apetit.

Leslie Swearingen 6 years, 1 month ago

There is no justification moral or legal or anyone to have a gun. Oh, yes, I know there are laws that say people can under certain conditions, but that does not make it justifiable and laws can be changed. In this instance, the young males were carrying weapons as a sign of their manhood (see Afghan rape story.) It is this kind of thinking that needs to be changed. And how do we start to do this? By having a president like Obama who will serve as a positive role model.By having a whole, intact black family in the white house who have solid values and who obviously love each other. They even have Grandma to keep them on the up and up.What has this got to do with the incident in Chicago? Ask any young black man, if you know any, who has a strong Grandma and he will tell you.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

max- Am I "way beyond stupid" because I don't agree with you? I cant tell you how happy that makes me.So why don't you answer my qusetion? Did I not call your bluff?As far as your "wild west" tirade goes, can you tell me how many people William Masterson shot in his career as a law man? You can look it up if you want to. The answer is three, two died.Hardly a rootin'tootin' gunslinger.Cleo- And just who's morals say we cannnot possess firearms? I also question your role model choice, but that's a differrent topic for another day.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Now for the serious side. The reason I challenge your statistics max, is because there is no way of knowing whether or not a firearm used in the commission of a crime was stolen or legally purchased by the offender unless that firearm is recovered at the scene of the crime and whether or not a firearm had been entered into NCIC after it had been stolen. The person filing a report concerning a stolen gun must have the make, model, and serial number for the gun to be entered into NCIC. So there is no real way of knowing how many guns were stolen or owned by the criminal when they committed their crimes.SInce you seem to be in a research mode, check the thesis entitled "The Armed Criminal In America" by professors Wright and Rossi, two staunch antigunners who interviewed over 1800 violent criminals. Their conclusions will surprise you gun grabber types.

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

Whoops. Two towns sum up the entire history of the 19th century western frontier, I stand corrected, maxie. In all honesty, I don't bother to do any more than a quick scan of most everything you post, which is why I missed Tombstone. "nor do I expect you to know that most of the events that happened in the so-called “Wild West” happened right here in Kansas"You're right again. I don't know that. Probably because that statement is so ignorant it's laughable, but that is your domain. "most of the events"? Most, maxie? The territory stretches from St. Louis to California.....but most everything happened in Kansas? Get outta the basement, max, your brain's gettin' soft!! Tell mommy fresh fruits, veggies, whole grains.... brain food, kiddo. It'll help. And it just shatters my confidence when you sneer at my teaching prospects, max. Shakes me to my core. It is your approval I seek, you know this, right? I understand though. I wasn't a big fan of teachers when I was in junior high either. You'll grow up. It'll be ok.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Benny,Try to stay on track here and stop making stuff up. No one wrote anything bad about social programs for the poor.

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

"The statistics were compiled from interviews with felons in jails and in prisons, but that's OK, you can go ahead and believe madmike, who says criminals obtain their weapons through theft"Brilliant. So you'd have us 'believe' felons in prison. You are an intellectually void wonder, max. Does your basement have rubber walls?"The lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion… The true story of the Old West is boring by comparison. Because of the need to hunt for food or protect themselves from wild animals, many people did have guns"Excellent!!!! As you've done many times in the past, you've pasted a link that completely proves MY point!! Duh...uh...let's see.............“Ya know, the old West wasn't a big shoot 'em up like you see on TV. Know why? Everyone had guns.” -jaywalker.........Why, thank you, max. Doin' my research for me. And just like the many times in the past, I'm now done with you. Don't let the bullies at recess corner you, stay close to the teacher, maxie. 'Bye bye now.

triplegoddess13 6 years, 1 month ago

You really don't have a single thought in your brain that is your own do you max? You don't have to answer since it'll take too long to find a link that suits you.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

max,Call me stupid if you like, but at least I don't counter my own arguments. You cannot answer a straight question. I think we know who really needs to wear the stupid label. You just continue to be a good little Liberal and regurgitate the talking points of your leaders without knowing what it means.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

"Myths About Gun ControlFrom 1870 to 1885, the five Kansas railheads of Abilene, Caldwell, Dodge City, Ellsworth and Wichita had a total of 45 homicides, or an average of three per year - a lower homicide rate than New York City, Baltimore and Boston.[conclusion: gun control works. Just opposite of the point the gun-nut was trying to make]"OK max, just a few questions.1. What was the population of those 5 Kansas railheads?2. What was the ratio of homicides per 100,000 in those towns, which is the criteria used to determine crime rate in the US?3. What is the population of each city, New York City, Boston, and Baltimore?4. What is the ratio of homicides per 100.000 in those cities?

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

'[conclusion: gun control works. Just opposite of the point the gun-nut was trying to make'So mind numbingly ignorant, just gotta shake my head, maxie. "Gun control", in the old West, in cowtowns with populations of a few thousand at best, when people rode horses and wore their guns around their waists for everyone to see................and you're contending that such 'controls' would be effective today? Yes, I reckon if the local sheriffs posted signs at the city limits that all the bad men would drop their Nines off at the precinct 'til they left town. You need to get out of the basement from time to time, junior, walk around, have mom sign the permission slip for field trips so you might actually see what the world looks like. Grow up. ………….“Ya know, the old West wasn't a big shoot 'em up like you see on TV. Know why? Everyone had guns.” -jaywalker"The lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion… The true story of the Old West is boring by comparison"Ok little boy, follow along slowly....first statement was MY point..............second statement you provided. That's all I was sayin'. You, on the other hand, contend that most everything that ever happened in the "Wild West" occurred in Kansas. And yes, of course, maxie, I print out comments I make to morons like yourself and include them with all my resume's. Doesn't everyone? You'll understand the protocol better when you enter the workforce. Whup....is mommy yellin' down to you again!? Did you forget to make your bed? Bad maxie. Bad.

Flap Doodle 6 years, 1 month ago

L was once a little linkyDinky winky,Stinky pinkyAll rat-finkyLittle linky

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

After having been subjected to all your stinky linky posty's I believe snap hit the nail on the head. Now leave the adults alone and go clean up your Power Rangers.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

So once again, max dodges a legitimate question because he can't think for himself. But, in a way, max is right. Gun control did work; for Hitler et al.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

My my my! Such a tantrum max! Does everyone get you so riled up so easily? I must confess to you max, I really do enjoy your posts when you refrain from the cut and paste spam. "I LOL out loud!"

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

Poor, poor maxie. Can't answer the question 'cuz wittle max's search engine is bogged down so he can't look up his(her) opinion. (I'm bettin' you thought that his/her thing was .......funny? You're so, so, sooooo very sad, maxie)Go to bed maxie or no fruit roll-up for lunch tomorrow.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

jaywalker,I really think max did the research and didn't like what he discovered.That's why he hasn't posted a link or a cut and paste tirade.

bearded_gnome 6 years, 1 month ago

nice going Guardian/jaywalker/snappy. I've had similar runins with Maxypad. when you get him away from his cut-and-paste, you find he is a 30-watt bulb in a 100-watt socket, and that ain't CFL! once he actually slimed me for observing how terrible it was that two lives ended so suddenly in the delaware street shooting incident. actually slimed me for that. I heard from posters who were shocked by his behavior. and, I too have had the occasion where he actually posts material proving my contentions. Maxy has no idea how low-life, low-rent, and brainless he comes across. but hey, Guardian/jaywalker/snap, good LOL's. "linky?" tinky winky? and as to his contention that most of the old west took place in Kansas...apparently he hasn't considered the histories of: Montana, johnson county war; wyoming; colorado, silver mining, Arizona, new mexico. apparently all the history Maxy knows is from Wikipedia/google search. a mind is a terrible thing to waste!***I don't think I've ever seen an online persona with as low a self-esteem as Max1 has. The cut-and-paste tells me he doesn't believe in his own ability towrite, and the constant citations tell me he doesn't expect anyone to believe anything he says.well put.

bearded_gnome 6 years, 1 month ago

now,watch, as one of you posted above, Maxy has no life. and he will post ten or more quotes of mine, just like he did of jaywalker, posts out of context, trying to say something entirely unintelligible. no life. ***as to the article above this thread:"Barack was a community organizer (in Chicago) like Jesus was."and posting/reposting McCain's meeting with the Annenburg(sp?) foundation doesn't change the Obama-ayers terrorist tie to radicalize chicago schools, failed to improve them at all. actually neighborhoods are worse today. so, maxy, you just make yourself look even more dense and petty when you post that. BTW, should anyone be curious, you can click on my screen name and read a whole blog on "Barack was a community organizer, like Jesus was."

jengaman 6 years, 1 month ago

People get shot in Chicago? No way!!! Comforting since I'm going there this weekend. I really love standing on the "L" platforms late at night...that's my favorite!As cold as it gets there you think all of these people would get smart and just stay home. Oh wait...the gym has heat. I get it now.

jaywalker 6 years, 1 month ago

"Too late to back up now — you said that the reason there were few homicides in the “old West” was because “everyone had guns”, and the piece I posted stated just the opposite, but you conveniently left that out."Back up? That's all I was sayin' from the start, mental midget. What you posted, max, refers to a few small cowtowns and measures they took to keep drunken cowboys from getting rowdy. In fact, a huge reason guns were confiscated wasn't because of a threat of violence, but for noise abatement and property damage. The Frontier West stretched from St. Louis to California and all territory north and south. You talking about a few cowtowns as 'proof' that you're right is akin to me sayin' all dogs are poodles.Brilliant as ever.And nice waste of time with the rest of whatever the rest of that was. This ain't kiddie arts and crafts, maxie, we don't cut and paste indiscriminately here, at least those that have completed junior high don't. Liquor and prostitutes, NYC and Hickock? Clean your room, maxie, and leave the adults alone.

bearded_gnome 6 years, 1 month ago

P.S. Now that the slobbering_gnome has shown up on the scene, maybe that babbling idiot can answer Guardian's list of demands. HaHaHaHaHaHaHasounds like Maxy did do the research and didn't like what he found, so resorts to slurs as usual, demonstrating the truth of my assessment of Maxy's limited abilities between his ears. California has no 2nd amend equivalent provision in its constitution, and some gun control there is stronger than here in kansas.
get that Maxypad, we're talking about --today-- real time and real lives.P.S. Now that the slobbering_gnome has shown up on the scene, maybe that babbling idiot can answer Guardian's list of demands. HaHaHaHaHaHaHa[see link in next post]third homicide in three days in a small town! gun control is really working out well in california! also will note: taxation and unemployment are far higher there in Salinas CA than in Lawrence KS. too bad poor little Max, shred of humanity, can't really speak for himself intelligently. he wants to run with the big boys, but just can't keep up.

bearded_gnome 6 years, 1 month ago

okay,third homicide in small town Salinas CA in three days! California, run by Maxy's liberals: gun control, illegal immigration/sanctuary, gangs, unemployment, high taxes, huge massive budget deficit! California, run by Maxy's buddies:http://www.ksbw.com/news/18462759/detail.html?treets=mty&tml=mty_break&ts=T&tmi=mty_break_1_01220101122009follow Maxy's talking points, you get life in California today, and just ignore his blather about cow towns, he doesn't know what the heck he's talkin' about. poor maxy, he wants so bad to keep up but just can't. the rocks between his ears are just too square. and, Maxy, I'm disappointed, you haven't yet posted a dozen or so quotes of my postings, all out of context. you know, the ones where I called you profidious, I said (multiple times before] that you're a 30-watt bulb, where you slimed me for expressing sadness for the loss of two lives so suddenly. in fact, that latter point, your sliming, indicates that you really don't care about gun control, you actually just wish for liberal control, and hate conservatives. you don't care when two people die suddenly and a third throws his life away! its just an opportunity for you. same with this article. you don't give squatt that people were shot at a Chicago basketball game, you just wanna push gun control, and that not even to save lives. no, you are so stupid you don't really care about the lives. and the thought that guns might actually save more lives than they take (John Lott) is totally foreign to you. foreign to you not because you want people to experience less gun injuries, but because you desire more control by big brother government. you really should move to Cuba; they have very intense gun control. there, you'll be happy Maxy.

Flap Doodle 6 years, 1 month ago

Wyatt Earp died at the age of 80 without ever having been wounded by a bullet.

jonas_opines 6 years, 1 month ago

max1: "I'll tell you what is sad, jaywalker — it is a sad state of affairs when you could even be considered for a teaching job."But, of course, Max's classes would go more like this.max "This class is about algebraic formulas, but first please read these three linkshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabrahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_of_tea_in_chinahttp://www.dps.state.vt.us/cjs/crimestats.htm"student: I can't figure out exactly what those links have to do with algebra.max: That's because you're an idiot, you stupid, incompetant, mouth-breathing bag of boogers! You're so stupid you can't even read links right, you probably can't even read! Here's an exhaustive list of every stupid thing that you've said in class up to date! (posts list on overhead) student: I don't think I'm going to give this teacher very good feedback.max: I wouldn't want good feedback from a stupid Stuart Smalley student such as you anyway, idiot.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

tempting-Very well said. We shall all experience that even more very soon.

Leslie Swearingen 6 years, 1 month ago

What I was trying to say is that owning a gun is amoral, it has no intrinsic morality in and of itself. What say we get away from the ancient west and back to the today mid-west?My role modal was spot on.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Well Cleo, Fortunately, I don't have to justify to anyone, legally or morally, why I choose to own a firearm. Nothing illegal or amoral about it. I have a right to life (or a right to defend same), liberty (a moral responsibility to defend same), and pursuit of happiness. One thing that makes me happy is putting holes in paper at long distance.

bearded_gnome 6 years, 1 month ago

http://www.ksbw.com/news/18465160/detail.html?treets=mty&tml=mty_break&ts=T&tmi=mty_break_1_04410101122009make that four homicides in three days in Salinas, [liberal run] California now! I love how maxy is completely ignoring this. must hit him pretty hard if he isn't even coming up with lame, out-of-context, irrelevant, out-of-date links for this chain of argument. Cleo,all I can tell you, you're an American and you ought to be proud of being an American; read the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution. the founders felt the right to personal gun ownership was pretty darned important; are you smarter than the founders?
very good Jonas! absolutely correct, if Maxy taught algebra! I can see that now! since my last encounter with Maxy, I've had two articles published in a small professional newsletter, and submitted a piece of more significant writing for a contest. plus, have worked on others. wonder what, if anything, maxy has done? but worth repeating: California, home of serious gun control, run by his liberal pals. homicides out of control. illegal immigration/sanctuaries, taxes through the roof, higher unemployment than here. liberalworld rules there. max1 doesn't care about people hurt or killed, he just wants to fight conservatives and put government in greater control of personal lives of its citizens. I bet Maxy is glad the federal government is now regulating the flush volume of your toilet in every home. probably makes him smile every time he flushes his low-flow toilet, and every time he has to plunger it, too. must be where he finds some of his material!

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Hey max,I'll help you out abit here in the spirit of cooperation. As any criminology major can tell you, the violent crime rate (and this does include murder, not to be confused with homicide) stays pretty close to the 10 - 12% rate per 100.000 and has for at least the last 200 years.What does this mean to you? Simple! If the population of a town is 100, that means 10 to 12 people will be murdered,If the population of a town is 1,000, then 100 to 120 people will be murdered. So, the more people you have in a town, the more people will be murdered, but the rate stays the same. Oh yeah, not all of these people will be killed with guns.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Hmm!. That does seem a bit excessive, doesn't it, I should have written that as victims of violent crime instead of murder victims. Oh well, too late for that with this crowd, especially since you, beo, have never made a mistake.Never the less, that facts are there regardless of how it was phrased by me.

triplegoddess13 6 years, 1 month ago

I always thought it was 1 + 1 = 3. My mistake.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

OK beo, I admit I made my mistake with my original figures. My bad there. And pursuing that any further on my part would just look like I was covering making things worse. Instead, I'll use what you posted. "...Not one single murder"--despite the fact that Kansas is going into its 3rd year of concealed carry. This makes max's posts even more redundant.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Yep, 4 murders. 1 domestic violence case, 1 beaten to death, a double homicide on a failed robbery== 1 by shotgun, 1 by rifle. Yep, definitely concealed carry is to blame here.

Flap Doodle 6 years, 1 month ago

I'll continue to bitterly cling to my firearms & just wait out what will probably be a brief O'dude administration. He'll wind up stepping down for one reason or another & then spaceman Biden will serve out the rest of the 4 years.

Jim Phillips 6 years, 1 month ago

Not that it matters to anyone but me, I will partially vindicate myself from earlier.FBI Uniform Crime Reports-2007US Population-301,621,157Reported Crimes-11,251,828Reported Violent Crimes-1,408,337% of Population Reporting Violent Crime-less than 0.5%% of Violent Crimes to Reported Crimes- 12.5%So had I used the appropriate categories, my post would have been correct. My apologies to all for my screw up

bearded_gnome 6 years, 1 month ago

And let's face it, you will get more varied repsonses from pulling the string on Chatty Cathy than from bearded_gnome.---misspellling by Maxy,okay, Maxy, did you not read my postings regarding the lot of California under advanced gun control? and, yes, guardian, I used the correct "homicides" term. you apparently aren't really interested in varied responses. if I repeat myself on some points it is because: not every blog reader reads every thread;you continue your very objectionable behavior, so pointing it out is repetition, isn't it;what I have stated repeatedly is correct, and you haven't refuted it--smears don't count;given your general inability to propound independent argumentation, I doubt your story that you worked as a private industry math tutor. and, you have 1(1) example of someone you "taught" some advanced math. pretty thin life's achievement, so I can see why you insist on cut-and-paste of irrelevancies and obscuranta. posting gives you the illusion of doing something useful, doesn't it Maxy? *Guardian, that's okay, makes sense now. and, I think poor ol' Maxy's waaaaaaaaay beyond the valium range. now, maxy, you want more varied responses? r e s p o n s e s, correct spelling.

J2od 6 years, 1 month ago

It is unfortunate that, with all the obviously great minds in this room ready to point fingers and discuss symptoms, there wasn't much offered in the way of advancing and improving the situation.It is painfully obvious that there is a problem not only with the media (at least the entertainment industry) making firearms seem like toys intended for playing, but also with the fact that, in our schools, there is an uncomfortable AND DAMAGING silence concerning the topic of guns. It is odd that we have driver's education and sex education and drug warnings, yet, in a country where guns are so abundant, no one makes it mandatory to bring this very real ignorance to light.What I mean is, if the only exposure or knowledge of firearms a young person gets is from the silver screen (which makes firearms seem like toys of cool use and no responsibility, where people are killed with little significance), it would be easy to see how an ignorant gun-toting teen would think not only that this activity is acceptable, but that it is of little consequence! When a person dies in a movie, it has no relevance after the ending credits; when a person dies in real life, it is forever... and it's this last instance that likely doesn't register until it's too late.Fact is, there is entirely too little accountability in this nation as it is, just as much in the citizens as in parts of the leadership.Two thoughts: If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them; and, if you only allow the government/police forces to have firearms, you are setting up a society that isn't run by its people at all... dare I say, "socialism"?Okay, okay: PERHAPS that is a little extreme. But let's face it: You're more likely to find a licensed driver that gives in to road rage than a gun owner that uses his firearm is an instrument of retribution.People hear the words "semi-automatic", and get frantic. They hear "gun", and get nervous. I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry. Firearms are an issue that so many people set their minds on, pro AND con, with little thought. They make up their minds on the SYMPTOMS... not the statistics, not the causes... and, frequently, subjective hotheads like Michael Moore want to blame the Second Amendment and Charlton Heston and guns in general INSTEAD of holding accountable the schmucks that DON'T consider the consequences of their actions or the parents that fail to discipline and teach their kids or even simply secure their firearms!?!?!If it wasn't firearms, it would be something else that becomes the symptom. Why not fix the CAUSE? Which is unaccountable parents and criminals...,,, but, then, my point of view MIGHT be considered heinous, because I do, ya know, expect people to own up for their responsibilities and control themselves enough to not blame someone else for their own self-induced plight.

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