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Archive for Sunday, June 29, 2008

Obama should confront Muslim issue

June 29, 2008

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It is not difficult to understand why Barack Obama has a fear of scarves.

In the 17 months he has been pursuing the presidency, the senator has faced a crude and shameless campaign from conservative pundits, GOP functionaries and assorted ignoramuses in the peanut gallery to prove him a secret Muslim - a "Manchurian candidate," as one put it - trained from birth to subvert America from within and, I don't know, make us all eat falafels or something.

On about a half-second of intelligent reflection, the flaw in that theory is apparent: If unfriendly forces had indeed inserted a "secret" Muslim among us, said Muslim would have blond hair, blue eyes, flag pins out the wazoo and a name like Joe Smith. Too bad intelligent reflection is a stranger to the people in question. With a grim fanaticism, they seize upon every perceived crumb of Obama's "Muslim-ness" to press their case, using everything from his middle name to his disdain for the cheap patriotism of the American flag lapel pin to a photo of him wearing native dress on a trip to Somalia.

So it's easy to see why workers for his campaign barred two women wearing hijabs, Muslim head scarves, from sitting behind him, within range of TV cameras, at a June 16 rally in Detroit. When someone is throwing at you, you don't hand him rocks.

But that doesn't make what the workers did right.

Yes, Obama apologized profusely. Good for him. It would be easier to take the apology seriously, though, if: a) somewhere in the last year of manifold denials that he is a Muslim, Obama had found the time, space or guts to point out that there's nothing wrong with being a Muslim, particularly in a nation that enshrined religious freedom in its founding documents; b) he hadn't spent so much time treating the American Muslim community as one does the carrier of a contagious disease.

Indeed, as the New York Times reported last week, members of that community are feeling well and truly snubbed by Obama, who has visited a number of churches and synagogues, but has yet to find his way to a single mosque.

Again, the politics of this are no mystery. Obama has spent the last year and a half being pilloried as the Other, representative of something so alien and strange to American values that even greeting his wife with a simple fist bump is fodder for a week of commentary. He is required to walk an unprecedented political tightrope, to be one part John F. Kennedy, one part Jackie Robinson. More, he is required to prove his American-ness like no other candidate before him. Pictures of him speaking in a mosque would not, putting it mildly, be helpful.

But see, the thing that has made Obama a phenomenon is this sense that he "gets it," that he won't play the same old games by the same old rules. He comes across as a man brave enough to reason and to expect that voters will do the same, a man brave enough to treat intelligent adults like intelligent adults. His campaign, more than most, is an implicit promise to never put that which is politic above that which is right.

This standoffishness toward American Muslims is a denial of all those things.

Until Sept. 11, 2001, that community was poised for assimilation, poised to submerge itself in the American mainstream like the Jews, Irish and Italians before them. The actions of a handful of their co-religionists on that fateful day wrecked that trajectory beyond recognition and unleashed something base and ugly in the American character. Muslims were snatched from the threshold of acceptance, painted once again as the alien and vaguely threatening Other. Can you imagine how that must feel? It is galling and painful to see yourself reduced to a caricature based on someone else's fears.

And Barack Obama should know that better than most.

- Leonard Pitts Jr., winner of the 2004 Pulitzer Prize for commentary, is a columnist for the Miami Herald.

Comments

BigPrune 6 years, 5 months ago

The biggest questions are, "Will blacks vote for Obama only because he is black?" "Will whites not vote for Obama since he is black?"

OnlyTheOne 6 years, 5 months ago

Hussein,"But he attended secular and Catholic schools, not a radical madrassa."To quote a smart man, "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer."A "Manchurian candidate" musn't be directly linked to anything outside the acceptable norm. In this instance he'd (the Manchurian candidate - not Obama) have to be Christian, educated in Public or Parochial school, etc. definitely not a Muslim education. As the Manchurian candidate was "brainwashed" during imprisonment he would be "educated" at home in secret.

dandelion 6 years, 5 months ago

So Tommy boy, you seem pretty concerned about what people in the Arab world think of our president. Why?

Hussein 6 years, 5 months ago

Why are you so convinced he is a Muslim? Has he not been a member of a Christian church for his entire adult life? He spent part of his childhood in Indonesia, a largely Muslim country. But he attended secular and Catholic schools, not a radical madrassa.

morganlefay 6 years, 5 months ago

What we have here is a bunch of narrow minded people in this country who can't get past the fact that his middle name is Hussein. Some people just make me sick...

Bob Hechlor 6 years, 5 months ago

Our president and the neocons lied to get us into war. They have undermined and staffed all the government agencies with incompetents. They have allowed large corporations to buy up the media. They have allowed government workers, pentagon officials, and military officers to join corporations, then give them no bid contracts costing taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars, implemented secret prisons and tortured people, some of which were innocent. They have allowed oil and energy industries to make unprecedented profits while consumers now sacrifice to try to make ends meet. They gave incentives to big companies to move their businesses and jobs overseas. They secretly funneled money into "Faith Based Services," where there was no oversight and alot of that money was then funneled back into their campaigns. They ignored the suffering following Katrina and took advantage of the situation to build casinos instead of homes and implemented their brainwashing tool of voucher schools, ignoring public schools. Now, we are going to worry if Sen. Obama was educated around Muslims. And even though we had to consult experts who all agree there is nothing of alarm here, see how people hang on to their fantasies and ignore real problems.

Bossa_Nova 6 years, 5 months ago

i would be surprised if obama is a muslim, but if indeed he is a Muslim, then its quite obvious that he is one that has integrated quite nicely into the american society and has accepted the american culture and norms as his very own. isnt that what most americans want from the muslim immigrants coming to this country? in fact, if he was a muslim who is now a church-going christian, then he would have taken a step further to becoming "americanized". isnt that the ultimate desire of the christians in reference to the muslims? isnt it the christian dream to convert a muslim to xtianity? if this be the case, then wouldnt the xtians be his greatest supporters? wouldnt he be the xtian poster boy?

Hussein 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion, would you please provide the proof he was educated in a Madrassa? I can't seem to find that proof anywhere. I think I shouldn't be surprised at racial hatreds being expressed here, but I'm sad that so many are.

repaste 6 years, 5 months ago

Like Nancy's comment, traitor, implying he was once a Muslim, shows the ability to believe the messages sent to us through the "ether" of our media. Saddam helped plan 9-11? Many still think this. Say it enough times and it must be true. Modern politics, perfected as of late, dont need to get em all, just enough to make a difference. "Obama will take away your guns" " My opponent is a lesbian" "A mushroom cloud" " the W's are missing from the white house typewriters" (my fav, a trial run I believe) " I served my time in the Guard" Good luck folks.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 5 months ago

"So Tommy boy, you seem pretty concerned about what people in the Arab world think of our president. Why?"I suspect that Tommy has imaginary friends in addition to his imaginary enemies.

bondmen 6 years, 5 months ago

Barack Hussein Obama is smart enough to know via history what the future holds when true Muslim believers inflict their demonic religion on their neighbors. Cultural Muslims make nice neighbors when they assimilate like many have in America. However infidels (all the rest of us) better be on our guard especially where Muslims are in a majority. In these countries the literal Koran believing Muslims inspired by radical Imam subjugate women, blacks, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Catholics and Taoists. Do you know how adulterers and homosexuals are treated? Sharia law is vicious, harsh and unforgiving.Have you asked yourself why Barack Hussein Obama's Kenyan relatives believe he's a Muslim?http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu6_qdGdImxYASmJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyODJyMXNlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0Y4NjJfODU-/SIG=132c0k9qq/EXP=1214826090/**http://home.granderiver.net/~capnjim/muzzslimes/ItsInTheKoran-WindowsMedia.wmv

Hussein 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion, I asked for proof, not rumors and not allegations. Can you provide those?

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

lets pretend for a minute that Obama is a Muslim - Who cares? George Bush is a recovering alcoholic and was Vietnam dodger - whats worse?

fivedollarmc 6 years, 5 months ago

I'd be more likely to vote for him if he was a muslim, and I'm catholic. It'd be interesting to see if a different religious ideology changes anything about how this country is run.At least a pillar of Islam is helping the poor. I don't see there being a rule in Christianity to do that.

Godot 6 years, 5 months ago

Well, the LJW should feel proud to host one of the Obamamunism opposition suppression operatives, posting under the pseudonym of Hussein."I believe in free press, I only fight against the smears and lies that continue to tell my people that I am a communist or a dictator in waiting, all because of my supposed associations. These people are simply afraid of change, --but you should not be!" --Fidel Castro, 1959.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion, if there's any solace to be taken after reading your posts, it rests in the fact that despite your fear, you only represent one vote. The closer the election, the louder your cacaphonous caterwaul. Please take comfort as you lay your head down tonight by caressing the autographed photo of Vern Miller climbing out of the trunk of your car.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

Well, Marion, I am a muslim and I believe that I live right next door to you, right here in Lawrence, Kansas. Every Morning, I see your smiling face as I prepare to go to work planning the hostle overthrow of the goverment of Lawrence with radical ideas and holy war. I have a cache of weapons in my basement meant to kill every non-Muslim in Lawrence and my leader said to take you out first. I was trained in a madrassa in Indonesia right with B. Hussein Obama as a matter of fact, he was the squad leader in sand box on Mon Tues and Sat. We had no school on Friday so we could go to the mosque to learn how to kill Christians or xtians as they are called in America. Truthfully however, you are one big fool. I am sorry, but all the spittle you spew is so incorrect and ridiculous that I am still wondering how anyone believes you are a human.There are a few radicals in every religion and every country. I have met thousands of people who call themselves Muslim but I have never once in 60 years met a terrorist anywhere in the world and I have been on every continent but South America and Antartica.The number of radical Muslims and those who would kill are fewer than the number of students going to Lawrence High. The rest of the 1.3 Billion Muslims go to work every day to earn an honest living. Not all are perfect or even close, but they are just like everyone else in the world when it comes to the basic needs. Don't be foolish any longer or show your ignorance. You are really laughable.By the way. No where in the Koran or in any literature we study does it say to kill anyone. those who believe that are those who are ignorant. Like those who say the Bible tells us to enslave blacks. "They are sons of Ham, Bond servants, sweat of their brows". Muslims believe that all mankind can be judged only by God. The best of them are those who are closest to God. Read and you will see your folly. Only read intelligently, please!

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

"Don't be fooled by a bulk mail, spam scam artist, and Internet criminal.Oh, and let's add "plagiarizer" to the pile, while we're at it:"Ag.Never fear Ag, I see Marion for who/what he is; sometimes amusing in a Cliff Clavin way, other times just a mildly irritating internet rash. I usually just ignore him, but I sometimes feel the need to apply some "cyber salve" to the rash just to quell the urge to scratch. And, as alluded to above by chet_larock, once in a great while even the blind Muslim squirrel known as Marion finds a nut, rather than merely being one.Have a great day everyone.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion:I'm not going to waste a lot of time on your nonsense, altough it is rather hilarious.Simply put, while there may be 7 "characters" in the username "bad_dog" there are only 6 "letters". You'll have to try again, but I'm sure you'll come up with something, irrelevant though it may be.Psst. Have you heard? Marion is a Muslim!Carl Rove says so...

Satirical 6 years, 5 months ago

I think we should all be more concerned about; his lack of experience (especially in the area of foreign policy), his stance (and flip-flopping) on public financing of the election and the 2nd amendment, his radical associations, and his socialist ideology.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

German Shepard - brown and black with large snoutPoodle - black or white with small snoutNeither of the above evolved via natural selection, rather were engineered by breeders. Your turn

Bob Hechlor 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion, Do you judge yourself an expert on the Koran or are these just chosen quotes, the meaning of which is lost on you as much as most of the Bible is lost on those who have not studied it in its context? Next, since Senator Obama is not a Muslim, why is this relevant in this editorial response?

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion, you "seem" to have so much insight on this topic (as well as any other topic introduced on the LJW) I'm beginning to believe YOU attended a Muslim school in your most formative years. It's interesting that there's just as many letters In "Marion" as in "Muslim" and both start with the letter "M". Hmmm... "...the wheels on the Carl Rove conspiracy bus go round and round..." Perhaps this is just a self-hatred situation and you're not really as bad as I thought, after all. Nah, (slaps self).

BigDog 6 years, 5 months ago

I believe the "Barack Obama is a Muslim" about as much as "Barack Obama has Kansas values"I believe both are BS

chet_larock 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion, I normally enjoy your points of view however I think you've gone off the deep end on this one. That article you posted is a couple of years old now, I think even Hilary's former campaign has all but dismissed that issue. Go press the reset button and bring back the generally sensible Marion we're used to. Obama's as much of a Muslim as you are a communist.

BigDog 6 years, 5 months ago

I believe environment has a huge impact on who a person becomes ..... beliefs of one's religion and those within the religion play a part in who a person becomes.The reason I don't buy this "Kansas values" crap being sold by some of the Obama people is he never grew up in Kansas .... the people of Hawaii not the same culture or environment as Kansas.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

Invictus, I'm just so curious about what these differences are - can you list a few and give some examples other than your assertion that religious traits are genetic?

Flap Doodle 6 years, 5 months ago

I discovered one reason that girfriend is spending so much time posting over here. He's ignoring his own odious 'forum'. As of a couple of days ago, he hadn't posted anything there in weeks.

Satirical 6 years, 5 months ago

There is an interesting article in today's edition titled: "Presidential straight talk on the decline." You should all read it.

chet_larock 6 years, 5 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Flap Doodle 6 years, 5 months ago

Not concerned, merely amused.Stillhavingawonderfulinternetlife.

Satirical 6 years, 5 months ago

I will not vote for Obama for many reasons, but as long as he upholds the U.S. Constitution, I don't care what religion he affiliates with, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

RR - So what you are saying is that all Muslims are terrorists? Following your logic all Christians are the same as Ted Haggart. And RR - Bush did weasel out of Vietnam and was actually AWOL from the national guard - what a wussy!

chet_larock 6 years, 5 months ago

"Mommy, mommy, help! A black man with a muslim name wants to be president!" P.a.t.h.e.t.i.c.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

Invits - So now your saying that traits take shape depending upon the environment someone 'evolves' in - what does this have to do with race? Why are you unwilling to list what you believe are differences between the races?

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Speakout, I have a question, or perhaps more than one.You clalim that Muslims are not radical. Let me tell you what I see. I see Copts in Egypt hauled before Islamic courts and convicted for being non-Muslims. I see individuals who leave Islam condemned to death. I see Christian girls in Indonesia captured and beheaded by Muslims in an effort to intimidate and drive out their Christian neighbors. I see Muslims in Pakistan falsely accusing Christians of defaming Muhammed and Islam and hauling these individuals before Sharia courts where they are condemned to death. What was the motivation? It turns out the Muslim borrowed some tools and lumber from the Christian and the Christian simply came by to ask when he could expect the lumber to be replaced and the tools returned. I see Muslim nation after Muslim nation demanding that the UN and the West amend ouir free speech laws to make saying anything critical of Islam a crime. I see Muslims declaring fatwas against those who criticize Islam. I see Muslim textbooks that call Jews and Christians apes and pigs and which advocate killing the Jews and Christians. I see Muslim run telelvision which hosts programs, some aimed at small children, which tell their viewers it is a Muslim's duty to particiapte in jihad and eliminate the Jews and Christians. I see riots in Muslim countries when some Danes publish cartoons regarding Muhammed, yet at the same time I see Muslims burning Bibles and Christian churches. All of this is reported in the news, and then you wonder why some of us may be just a little bit concerned where Muslims are involved.

ndmoderate 6 years, 5 months ago

"George Bush is a recovering alcoholic and was Vietnam dodger" -- sfjay"Bush was not a draft dodger during Vietnam."--RRRR, sfjayhawk didn't say that Bush was a draft dodger, but rather a Vietnam dodger. Don't you often lecture others on these boards about reading comprehension?

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

Religious traits are genetic? Extra helping of drivel today!

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

In the seventh century, the pagan people of Mecca were killing anyone who associated with Muhammad because Muhammad told them about God and they refused to worship the idols placed in the center of the city. The pagans got very angry and began to kill Muhammad's followers in their beds while they were sleeping. His followers began to guard each other's houses and soon they formed a militia to guard themselves. Then the command came from God to fight back and not let the oppression continue.One afternoon while engaged in a battle, one of Muhammad's friends killed a man who had just before the sword cut him to death, declared his belief in one God. The friend was very excited because he believed the man proclaimed his faith just to save his life and it wasn't true. Muhammad was outraged. He said to his friend, "did you open his heart and see if he was truthful? Did you hear his confession to God before you killed him? Once a man is dead, he cannot repent his sins or recant his past deeds. You have given him the greatest of injustice."I tell this story to ensure you that true Muslims do not kill except in self defense or to protect his home and family. Those who purpetrated the events of 9/11 were clearly not true Muslims but those who kill with a vengence. This is totally prohibited under any circumstances and killing of women, children, old men and non-combatants is still a major sin to those who commit it. Those who think they will get immediate paradise for killing these "infidels" will have a rude awakening according to Islamic teaching.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

BK Garner, thanks for your honest questions. They are better than Marion's drivel with quoting only half of the verse. for example: Marion writes: "Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191" Ther is more to it of course:2:190 and fight in God's cause against those who wage war against YOU, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors2:191 And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away - for oppression is even worse than killing. [168] And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; [169] but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth. This section is about those who oppress others as they did to the believers in the 7th Century or those who oppress people today. What it is saying that if a government or people fight against you fight back if they oppress you. Like Israel is doing to the Palestinians. This is the justice the Palestinians had to do is fight back. It is better than laying down and letting an oppressor take their land and kill them all.But to answer your questions. They are tough circumstances and while I believe that most people on earth, whether or not Muslim, they do their best. Their understanding of the verses may not be what others see in the same verses. Any discrimination against non-Muslims is prohibited, but that doesn't mean that it isn't done. This is not something that is allowed in Islam, but Islam is sometimes misunderstood. We are all human and we make mistakes.There are lots of things that happen in the world, done by Muslims and non-Muslims alike that are wrong, JUST TOTALLY WRONG, but they are done anyway. Muslims are not permitted to tax Christians or anyother group more than Muslims. So to answer your question, they are wrong to do this, in my opinion.What is even more depressing to me is the quotations some people use to make Islam look bad. Well use all of the quote or the whole meaning, not part. Thanks.

hwarangdo 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion - LOL LOL if you saw me in person you'd realize I'm no threat to you. This whole business of Islam-bashing is so silly.Yet it makes those who do so able to entertain their egos, feel good and be righteous.It keeps one going, and supplies the need boost to the belief system of "my religion is better than your religion" ... "my country is better than your country" ... "my opinion and beliefs are better than yours" ... and on and on ...As surely has humankind's entire history of fighting and destroying one another over the same things mentioned above - ALL of humankind, through the ages, has fallen into chaos and turmoil and self-destruction.But gee, of course, by all means, the rogue games must be kept up. For those who live to play the games men have played for 2 million years; games which have all ended in annihilation of thousands of "civilizations".Our "civilization" is just another drop in the bucket.So rant on, keep living in utter fear, anger, hatred, vengefulness and separation. History lesson #100,000,000,000,000 ............Learned anything yet?

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Speakout:I appreciate your response. Some additional points.The verses you cite speak of resisting oppression. Frankly, I agree, oppression should be resisted. Now is where things get difficult. What is the difference between oppression and self-defense? You cited the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis although that is not one of the examples I cited. How interesting that you turned immediately to an issue that, from my perspective, is designed to deflect the question from Islam to that conflict. What is your response to what I read by Islamic scholars that in an Islamic court, the testimony of a Muslim male has a value of 1, while the testimony of a Muslim female has a value of 1/2, and non-muslims are not even permitted to testify? This is according to Sharia Law experts--Muslim scholars. This does not sound very equal to me and, in fact, somewhat discriminatory.How do you respond to claims by Muslims that the Jews have no right to be in the Palestine/Israel area at all? That they have no historical link to that land whatsoever?How do you respond to the claims by Muslims that the Jewish temple never existed?How do you respond to the statements by Muslims that the Holocaust never occurred? That it is something made up by western nations to "oppress" the Muslims?According to what I read in the online Qur'an I found, I am a kuffar--a non-believer. Frankly, what I read in the Qur'an regarding the treatment of kuffars was not very encouraging.Additionaly, how do you respond to how the Qur'an says a muslim should treat a dhimmi and to the jizya? I can assure you that I have no intention of ever becoming a dhimmi and I most certainly will never pay the jizya! I would appreciate your detailed and accurate answers.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

Mr Garner, thanks for the questions and I will answer you as you ask but to do so will entail great discussion and lengthy reponses on here. Instead, I would like to have coffee with you sometime and answer these. I have been invited to several venues to discuss Islamic issues, but certainly a private discussion would be welcomed. I don't know how to contact you, however, I will if you should be so bold to include an email address where I can contact you. For business purposes, I prefer to remain anonymous as much as I can, although an associate of mine has determined my identity.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

Malcom X some people keep quiet to mask their ignorance, but not you!

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

if religion and race are intertwined, then how do you explain Catholics in India, Arab Christians or American Muslims? So because, in your estimation, he will always be 'part Muslim' why is that a big deal? Who cares?

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

And another thing, going back to the initial thrust of this thread, if Obama says he is not Muslim, then I would think he should know. If he is Muslim he would tell you. Just because there are those in this country who have no idea about the Religion of Islam or the behaviour of Muslims, they make it sound like its a scourge upon the land. Some of the greatest acheivements of mankind were done by Muslims. Before you open your mouth in distain about anyone, you had better know the facts. That seems difficult for a few. They want to talk before they know anything.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

you've obviously never been to southern India, or to parts of the Philippines where they take their Catholicism very seriously. In your first post of the day you stated that a candidates genetic makeup is important - can you tell me what it is about Obamas genetic makeup that you have an issue with and why?

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

And what does any of that have to do with him being genetically a Muslim or his 'religious traits'?. Why are you so afraid to spell out how you 'see things'? Weak. Breads of dogs compared with human evolution is the best you've got? Lame

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

Bad Dog, While I concur with you whole heartedly, I must say that the dictators that permeate the Arab Muslim world have all be placed by the West after the fall of the Ottaman Empire after WW I. While Islam teaches all that is in our bill of rights, those dictators cannot allow that or they would lose power. Ho Ho and they don't want to lose power. Saddam Hussein of Iraq, Hafiz AL Assad of Syria, King Hussein of Jordan, King Muhammad II of Morocco, are some examples of this. All of the people of the Arab countries beg for freedom and deserve freedom. When they don't get it there, they get it by migrating to the USA. These first Amendment rights are unheard of in the Arab world, not because it is anti-Islamic, but because the leaders are Dictators who rule with an iron fist.It is through ignorance of the truth that people disdain Islam and its precepts, but only the ignorant post anti-Islamic rhetoric here. Read whole passages, don't pick a choose a few words and make a decision about what it says. Actually, perhaps you should read the whole book!??Like Hwarangdo said earlier, there are many Muslims in the USA that were born and raised here. My father was a WWII veteran as well, born and raised in America, and my grandfather was highly decorated in WW1 and received a battle field commission. When they learned he wasn't an American Citizen yet (and you have to be to be a commissioned officer in the US Military), they gave that to him as well and then the rank of lieutenant. I served during Viet Nam.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Screed:I haven't take the time to read the entire Wiki article you reference, however, a quick look-see does bring the following warning to one's attention: "This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims." In fact, one of the biggest criticisms of Wiki is the "everymans opinion" sourcing they so often utilize.While the contents may ultimately prove to be accurate the warning seems to indicate that you should take the contents on an advisory basis-with a non-authoritative grain of salt, so to speak-at least until confirmed.

beatrice 6 years, 5 months ago

Malcolm, What I am trying to communicate is that Obama needing to address the Muslim issue is ridiculous. He isn't a Muslim nor has he ever been a Muslim. It is a none-issue. It is as ridiculous as making the 71 year old John McCain prove that he hasn't been worshipping a statue of a golden monkey for the last three quarters of a century. You also forgot an important point from your list, which should be #1: Obama will be your next President.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

If you had the courage, BK, to listen to the real topics that are discussed in Islamic circles, you would know that mainstream Islam (and I hate that term) does not act the way you describe. Yes, I am sure there are some "clerics" who hate the actions of the West, especially American support for Israel or the decadent behavior of some Americans or the alcoholism or drug use here and on and on. BUT, not one of them would distain the freedoms we enjoy nor would they speak against them.There are no such thing as Muslim "Clerics" and the ones to follow are the ones who are scholars as defined by the collegiate standards. Muslims are not "ordained" as clerics like Christians nor are they held in higher degree unless they are learned and scholarly.I go to the mosque every Friday and have for 40 years and have never heard any Khateeb (speaker) mention anything about the US or being anit-US and I have been in 61 countries in this world and can say the same thing. So your "facts" are totally WRONG. Sorry, but what you are spreading are arrogant lies. That is not true. Can you point out in the Quran where it advocates totalitarianism? Can you point out any phrase or passage or verse advocating the killing of any group except in defense of oneself, his family or his country. You can't, it isn't there.Jihad means in ARABIC, the inner struggle to do what is right as opposed to one's nature to do something sinful. PERIOD that is it. Some Westerners want to brand Radicalism with Jihad and that is absolutely giving them too much credit for what they do. They kill. Jihad is not killing ones self or anyother person. Have you ever met anyone who advocates Shariah law in the USA? I haven't. I have met no terrorist, no radical Muslim, no "cleric" who advocates that at all. There are some who want to have more freedom, but not anyone who wants Shariah Law. Period. You are making up way too much to make a point. If you don't like Islam, fine. I don't like somethings too, but I don't make up lies to discredit it.You say that you "despise any and all ideologies or theologies that destroy freedom and will resist those to the death." As a Viet Nam veteran, Muslim, and human being, I totally agree with that and will tell you that Islam agrees as well.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Speakout:Perhaps then you should explain the muslim practice of al-taqiyya. I have saved a lengthy islamic scholar document on this so be careful what you say. The document cites Sunni and Shia'a sources.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

But you were talking about religious traits being genetic and a part of race. What other non 'outer physical traits' can you come up with? Can you man up and list some?By the way, what 'race' do you classify Mr Obama as?

Satirical 6 years, 5 months ago

Bossa_Nova:Some very interesting questions concerning the nature of Deity. I believe God wanted children, just like many parents want children, to share their love with them. Christ was important, and needed to be sacrificed to redeemed mankind (the rest of God's children) from death and hell. To redeem mankind from sin required a perfect being, a Savior, and to overcome death Christ was resurrected. This was necessary so we could all live in God's presence again since God will not allow an unclean thing in His presence.I do not know who His wife is, but I believe He has a wife, and I believe we are all His children.God is capable of forgiving without blood sacrifices and has done so numerous times. Blood sacrifices, giving up the first of the flock, were symbolic of Christ's sacrifice. Today, after Christ's sacrifice, Heavenly Father only requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit to repent of our sins. None of these are restrictions on His ability, they are choices He made. Just like I would want someone to wipe off their muddy shoes before they enter my home.The similarities between Christ and Greek mythology are just that, similarities. Correlation does not prove causation. I believe in Jesus Christ because I prayed to Heavenly Father and received a witness of the truth through the Holy Ghost.Also, I believe Heavenly Father loves all of us and wants us to live with Him, He also allows us to choose whether that is something we want. He gives us commandments to keep us safe, and allow us to be productive and happy.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion, just a clarification. If a Christian President of the United States should happen to declare war against, say, Iraq could we also say that Christianity had declared war on say, Iraq? With your faulty thinking that would be true. One crazy man, who invites others to join him in a war against America calls himself a Muslim. He insturcts his followers to ram huge airplanes into the twin towers of the Trade Center and you conclude that ALL Muslims have declared war on poor little you. Isn't that ridiculous? In essence, we could blame the Bible for this war. Now Neither did Bush follow the teachings of the Bible nor did Osama Bin Lauden follow the teachings of the Quran, but you have elected them as the spokesperson for that specific faith. What power you must think you have! Do you tell your friends that you are Jesus, too? Or perhaps you tell them you are GOD Himself. My my, such a deal.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

bk:No, if the allegations are true, even one mosque or school is one too many, particularly if they receive any public funding.I do have to admit to some dubiousness about the source-WorldNet Daily. They also publish articles I believe are at best highly controversial, e.g. the purported link between soy intake and homosexuality. Nevertheless, I'll read, research and consider what you provided.

Daytrader23 6 years, 5 months ago

When will all Muslims, Jews and Christians realize they worship the same God and are fighting over different versions of the same fairy tale? Religion is the number one cause for all hate, war and killing. FACT.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Speakout:Assuming you are willing to read this, it is not dictators that I am concerned about but clerics who openly call for the destruction of the US and the end to our system of government and the installation of Sharia Law here. Nor, do I refer only to clerics found in the Middle East. These sermons seem to occur frequently in almost every mosque. Be that England, France, The Netherlands, Canada, the US, or anywhere. In fact, an investigation undertaken against mosques has revealed that in 75 of the first 100 investigated, the Arab language service was full of and laced with anti-US rhetoric. Note: the English language version was pretty mundane, but not the Arabic version. And these were mosques in the US, not the Middle East. Further, I have grown tired of tracking the number of websites of clerics here in the US that openly call for Jihad against the US government and the imposition of Sharia Law. So, while I would be perfectly happy to live and let live, it does not appear that your Islamic brethren are willing to do so.Now as for you. I am adamantly opposed to Islam because of its totalitatian nature, and I will resist its imposition here in the US with my life and blood and treasure. However, should I have occassion to find you injured at the side of the road, I will stop and help you doing all I can to assist you. Should I be present if your house should catch fire, I would risk my own life to ensure that you and your family were safely out. If your child were to go missing, I would give time and energy to help you find your missing child (or in your case, grandchild). You see, I do not hate you on a personal level. However, I despise any and all ideologies or theologies that destroy freedom and will resist those to the death.And Bad Dog, as for some of your comments. I do not think it inappropriate to condemn and resist ideas that would destroy freedom regardless of their origin. As it relates to Islam, it is in their Holy Book that they must impose this upon all of us. Contrast that with Christ's message in the Bible which was to teach and persuade, but not force. There is a large difference. A very large difference.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Invictus-seriously, you should put down the shovel. You're digging yourself in deeper with each post.I believe the other posters were wanting you to elaborate regarding how the various races "differ" rather than whether/how they are "better". You even state above that "races are different than each other". Please elaborate on that issue.I'd expect people of varying races would be very similar were they raised in similar environments, whether the environment be driven by economic, social, political or religious elements. I'd expect to see similar numbers across the racial spectrum with respect to occupations, education, entrepreneurship, criminal offenses, whatever.Just my opinion.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Speakout-I hear you and understand your perspective. While I don't have the understanding of Islam you express, neither do I have an inherent prejudice toward you because of it.I also understand the political and religious atmosphere you describe as it currently exists in places such as Iraq, Syria and Jordan. That is why it is a difficult, if not impossible task to foster the growth of Democracy and personal freedoms in such places. We can only do so in places like the U.S.It appears that both you and your family have served this country honorably. May you and your family live and prosper here in peace.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

bk:"As it relates to Islam, it is in their Holy Book that they must impose this upon all of us. Contrast that with Christ's message in the Bible which was to teach and persuade, but not force. There is a large difference. A very large difference."Once again bk, you refer to concepts/issues I have neither espoused nor endorsed. For example, consider this quote from my 9:41 a.m. post: " It's one thing to be a God fearing person and espouse a righteous life; it's another thing completely to force your religious and political concepts down the throats of another." Isn't advocating acting in a God fearing manner and espousing a righteous life in effect teaching and persuading by word and deed? On the contrary, many of your words appear designed to promote fear and promulgate hatred toward those who differ from you. I could be mistaken but I don't believe that constitutes the teaching and persuasion you seem to be advocating. I also "...do not think it inappropriate to condemn and resist ideas that would destroy freedom regardless of their origin", if in fact these ideas are capable of doing so. I believe freedom is strong enough to stand on its own conceptual feet. On the other hand, I do believe you paint all Muslims with a culturally wide brush and therein lies the fallacy of your argument. I'd also be interested in seeing the citation for or link to the investigation of the 100 mosques you referenced above. I'd certainly be interested in knowing of such occurrences in an effort to fully appreciate the possibility of a threat to our domestic security.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

You can't be part Muslim any more than you can be part Christian or Jewish. We aren't talking about something that is inherent. It isn't something that is passed through genes and if you think so, you have no clue what religion is all about. There are racial and ethnic traits that are learned and some are genetic,. but not religion. What are you trying to say?

beatrice 6 years, 5 months ago

I heard that John McCain worships a statue of a golden monkey. He has been doing so for virtually three quarters of a century. It is important that McCain makes his stand on this clear if he wants our support of him as President. First, he must answer the "golden monkey" question and tell us clearly that he doesn't worship a statue of a golden monkey. Then, he must prove, through tax receipts of donations to none golden monkey religious institutions and pictures of him with none golden monkey worshippers, that he doesn't in fact worship a statue of a golden monkey. Finally, he must spend the rest of his campaign not only reiterating the fact that he doesn't worship a statue of a golden monkey, but he must produce a family tree that proves that nobody in his family has ever worshipped a statue of a golden monkey either. Only then, will McCain get half the people to believe that he doesn't worship a statue of a golden monkey.

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

When the Prophet Muhammad died in the 7th Century, he advocated the election of elders or "Mujlis" to govern. The first of them was Abu Bakr and he was considered the Khalifah of the Muslim world at that time. He governed with a very big ear to his advisors or his Mujlis Ashura and he was very well respected and loved. There was no iron fist or totalitarian form of government. But that came later when others wanted to fight for that post of Khalifah. The first four Khalifs were called the rightly guided leaders of the Muslims for they learned and lived from the Prophet himself.Islamic Law does not permit the ruthlessness we have seen in the dictatators of Arab countries. Jailing ones' opponents is strickly forbidden and dessent is welcomed, debate is welcomed in Islamic circles, but not in the governments of the Arab world.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Bad dog, you might also like this one. And, this is only one example. Sorry, but it may take two postings.Teacher spills beans about Islamic classes'The kids were corralled by adults and required to go to assembly for prayer'--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted: April 09, 20083:28 pm Eastern© 2008 WorldNetDaily A Minnesota teacher who substituted for two fifth-grade classes at a publicly funded school located in the same building as an Islamic mosque says religion appears to be a significant focus of the education. Amanda Getz of Bloomington, Minn., told a columnist for the Minneapolis Star-Tribune her duties at Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy in Inver Grove Heights included taking students to the bathroom, four at a time, to perform "their ritual washing."Then, the teacher told columnist Katherine Kersten, "teachers led the kids into the gym, where a man dressed in white with a white cap, who had been at the school all day," was preparing to lead prayer.Beside him, another man "was prostrating himself in prayer on a carpet as the students entered," the teacher said.The Star-Tribune previously documented that the charter high school for kindergarten through eighth-grade students is named after a Muslim warlord, shares the address of the Muslim American Society of Minnesota, is led by two imams, is composed almost exclusively (99 percent) of blacks and has as its top goal to preserve "our values."And it's all funded by the taxpayers of Minnesota.Kersten wrote she had asked for permission to visit the school and was denied. The school also declined to return a WND telephone request for an interview.The institution has drawn objections from a number of people, including Robert Spencer, the expert who monitors such developments at Jihad Watch."Can you imagine a public school founded by two Christian ministers, and housed in the same building as a church? Add to that in the same building a prominent chapel. And let's say the students are required to fast during Lent, and attend Bible studies right after school. All with your tax dollars," he wrote. "Inconceivable? Sure."If such a place existed, Spencer said, "the ACLU lawyers would descend on it like locusts. It would be shut down before you could say 'separation of church and state,' to the accompaniment of New York Times and Washington Post editorials full of indignant foreboding, warning darkly about the growing influence of the Religious Right in America."Kersten's latest report documents the teacher's observations at the school.Getz told Kersten that the orders when she arrived were to prepare for the "assembly" at the school by having the children do their ritual washing and take them to the gymnasium."The prayer I saw was not voluntary," Getz told the columnist. "The kids were corralled by adults and required to go to the assembly where prayer occurred."(cont)

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

On the adjacent page was an ad for Tarek ibn Ziyad.The Minnesota Department of Education confirmed the academy pocketed more than $65,000 in state money for the 2006-2007 year under one program alone.WND previously reported in Idaho the five pillars of Islam were taught under the guise of history, "religion guidelines' used in public schools were assembled with help from a terror suspect and U.S. courts upheld mandatory Islamic training in schools.The Minnesota school's own website explains it tries to provide students a "learning environment that recognizes and appreciates the traditions, histories, civilizations and accomplishments of Africa, Asia and the Middle East."It boasts of a "rigorous Arabic language program" as well as "an environment that fosters your cultural values and heritage."The school says it is named after Tarek ibn Ziyad, the "Ummayad administrator of medieval Spain. Thirteen hundred years ago, serving in the multifaceted roles of activist, leader, explorer, teacher, administrator and peacemaker, he inspired his fellow citizens to the same striving for human greatness that we hope to instill in our students today."Even Islamic websites, however, explain that Tarek ibn Ziyad invaded Spain from Africa in a bloody battle after ordering the boats that had carried his soldiers burned so they could not retreat."This marked the beginning of the Muslim conquest of Spain. Muslims ruled the country for hundreds of years so gloriously and well that Spain became afterwards the fountain-head of culture and civilization for the whole continent of Europe," the Islamists boast.

bondmen 6 years, 5 months ago

Islam is much more than a religion. It is an all encompassing way of life, a religious, political and cultural ideology. Its many non "religious" facets must be firmly and completely dealt with, without the "religious" protections afforded by our Constitution. Those familiar with the film Invasion of the Body Snatchers or more recently, the Borg from Star Trek The Next Generation, will recall how those forces would invade and capture people who were unaware, or would not believe the danger and finally those who could not resist. In looking around the world where Islam is hegemonic or in ascendancy one clearly sees Sharia law harshly applied with social justice greatly lacking. Resist Islam now before resistance is futile and suicidal or forever regret it.There is only one Creator God. He is the God of the Holy Bible where He reveals His truths to those who seek and love Him. Allah is not this God because everybody should know Allah has NO son. Therefore Jesus Christ, who is God's Son, is not the god of the Koran and could never be according to Mohammad's own words. Wake up folks!

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Study: 3 in 4 U.S. mosques preach anti-West extremismSecret survey exposes widespread radicalism --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted: February 23, 20089:51 pm Eastern© 2008 WorldNetDaily An undercover survey of more than 100 mosques and Islamic schools in America has exposed widespread radicalism, including the alarming finding that 3 in 4 Islamic centers are hotbeds of anti-Western extremism, WND has learned.The Mapping Sharia in America Project, sponsored by the Washington-based Center for Security Policy, has trained former counterintelligence and counterterrorism agents from the FBI, CIA and U.S. military, who are skilled in Arabic and Urdu, to conduct undercover reconnaissance at some 2,300 mosques and Islamic centers and schools across the country."So far of 100 mapped, 75 should be on a watchlist," an official familiar with the project said.Many of the Islamic centers are operating under the auspices of the Saudi Arabian government and U.S. front groups for the radical Muslim Brotherhood based in Egypt.Frank Gaffney, a former Pentagon official who runs the Center for Security Policy, says the results of the survey have not yet been published. But he confirmed that "the vast majority" are inciting insurrection and jihad through sermons by Saudi-trained imams and anti-Western literature, videos and textbooks.(cont)

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

bk:Thanks for the info. I'll peruse it at length later tonight.Do you have any idea whether mosques were randomly chosen or specifically targeted based upon reputation or some other criteria? Also, has the study been updated to include some portion of the other ~ 2,200 mosques, Islamic centers and schools?

Godot 6 years, 5 months ago

Beobachter, I challenge you to disprove anything I have presented as fact. On the other hand, my opinions and analyses are what they are, just my opinions. They are out there to be challenged by argument and persuasion. If the best you can do is attack me, personally, without even attempting to point out the specific areas of disagreement, then, well, you know......sorry for you.

BigAl 6 years, 5 months ago

malcom x... #10. As if George Bush hasn't already made Jimmy Carter look great. This country is in much worse shape than when Carter left office. George Bush and his band of ne'er-do-wells have almost run us into the ground. Either McCain or Obama will be a huge improvement over what we have had. But, you right wingers continue to worry about Obama not wearing a flag lapel pin. Keep spinning the hate.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Bad Dog: As to your questions, I don't know. However, let us assume that there were even 10,000 mosques in the US. Would it be an acceptible thing for even 75 of them, though that would be a very low percentage, to be advocating this kind of thing? How many madrassas do we need or terror camps do we need before we start cultivating our own home grown jihadi extremists?

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

Actualy, Speedposter, the prayer rug was first used in India by Hindus or Sihks and later adopted by the Arab Muslims. Sorry, nice try.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Screed;I got it, I got it, I got it ;-) It isn't my intent to mince words, however, the mere utilization of the word "jihad" in the title of the organization doesn't necessarily define the word. In addition, one person's (or in this case organization's) interpretation of a given term of art often differs significantly from that of another. The meanings of words also often morph over time. As Mark Twain once said: "The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning."

Godot 6 years, 5 months ago

This would not even be an issue if Obama had not assumed that the American public cannot comprehend the written word. He said in his own autobiography (and, by the way, how many people write their autobiography before they accomplish greatness?) that he was punished in school for making faces while reading the Quran.Why did he not just say, yes, I attended an Islamic school as a child, and, just as the 20 years I spent as a parishoner of Rev. Wright, which had no effect on me, my time spent in an Islamic school had no effect on me. However, the years my mother spent, as a child, in Kansas, which she escaped as soon as she could, and where I never visited until I was a candidate for president, that time, those experiences, shaped me, they instilled in me a sense of midwest values. Why couldn't he have just said that?

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

I guess, I never heard of a "buzzing" Prayer rug and I wouldn't put it past the Jordanians to do something different. Enlighten me as to what it is. Thanks.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

Mr Haggard - I mean RR - what was your point then? And why would it matter if Obama was a Muslim?Its my opinion, and the opinion of many other Vietnam vets that Mr Bush weaseled out of service in Vietnam. TANG records will show that Mr Bushy never set foot in Vietnam during the war.

Darrell Lea 6 years, 5 months ago

A great poet once wrote:Whoever we are, Wherever we're fromWe shoulda noticed by now our behavior is dumbAnd if our chances expect to improveIt's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to removeThe other race or the other whateverFrom the face of the planet altogetherThey call it THE EARTH which is a dumb kinda nameBut they named it right 'cause we behave the same...Dumb all over Black 'n whitePeople, we is not wrapped tightNurds on the left Nurds on the rightReligious fanatics On the air every nightSayin' the Bible tells the storyMakes the details sound real gory'Bout what to do if the geeks over thereDon't believe in the book we got over hereYou can't run a race without no feet'N pretty soon there won't be no streetFor dummies to jog onOr doggies to dog onReligious fanaticsCan make it be all gone(I mean it won't blow up n disappearIt'll just look ugly for a thousand years...)You can't run a country by a book of religionNot by a heap or a lump or a smidgeonOf foolish rules of ancient dateDesigned to make you all feel greatWhile you fold, spindle and mutilateThose unbelievers from a neighboring state

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

I am glad Muslims achieved something that you knew about! I am not sure it was one of the greatest. I kinda think medicine or astronomy was.

sfjayhawk 6 years, 5 months ago

My post said that Bushy dodged service IN vietnam - true statement - he was never in vietnam. And to his predecessor, assuming what you claim is true, and to anyone else who used privilege to avoid legitimate service - shame on you, you are a coward and shouldnt be allowed to be president and commander in chief. As for AWOL, my understanding is that he was AWOL from the wussy reserves. Do you think Bush would have a problem using his privilege to get TANG records changed? How lame is that! Either way, he wussed out of legit service in harms way. Whats your point about alcoholics and 9/11?

akt2 6 years, 5 months ago

I just saw the political ad with Obama showing his grandparents and mother, and how he was raised with good Kansas values. I did not find it believable on any level.

Bob Hechlor 6 years, 5 months ago

Nice work speakout. I think that does clarify things. I agree that all of the major world religions have undergone periods of oppression where people were maligned, tormented, tortured and persecuted. Certainly that has happened to Native cultures, African Americans, and most cultures as they are introduced into other cultures. Religion has been used for non-religious purposes. Yes, I think it is safe to say that people can get mean, nasty, hostile and self-serving. They can incidentally be people who also claim allegiance to a certain faith. While people may think they do not have biases, prejudices, it often lies in a deep dark unknown place and comes out in camoflaged mannerisms and sudden, thoughtless speech. Some of our people may, if they pay attention, uncover prejudice that they were not aware of. Even though Christian Obama grew up around people of other cultures and faiths, he still has to be looked at, in terms of his own behavior and accomplishments. When you look at that, he is another real person, who incidentally has overcome a lot and accomplished a lot. That is just a plain unalterable fact. While this may be disturbing to those who float with those Christian Obama is competing with, it would be great if people would recognize the truth. If you don't agree with his ideas, fine. Disagree, it's American. But, it doesn't help anyone when we pretend, condemn out of hand and spread rumors.

antney 6 years, 5 months ago

"Until Sept. 11, 2001, that community was poised for assimilation, poised to submerge itself in the American mainstream like the Jews, Irish and Italians before them."I wonder if racism or religious intollerance is at play.- According to the US Cencus, Arab Americans do not have their own race block and generally mark White or other- 9/11 was blamed on radical Muslims- Yet, since 9/11 my Arab friend, always gets pulled over at the airport for the extra courtesy checks, not because he declares himself as a Muslim, but because he looks Arab- Obama gets accused of being a Muslim not because he looks Arab, but because of his name Arabic name Hussein

RonBurgandy 6 years, 5 months ago

Some people hide behind hatred too much. It is sickening.

Godot 6 years, 5 months ago

I have posted before that Obama would make a better fiction writer than actual leader. Today's events, where Obama attempts to transform the aggregious personal attack by Wesley Clark, Obama's surrogate, against John McCain, into an attack against his, Obama's, own patriotism, while laughable, creates a possibly sellable screenplay.That is one possible upside of an Obama win in November. Ever since the Clintons left office, movies have sucked. When, and if, the Dems regain the Whitehouse, and, thus, have power over the Pentagon, Hollywood will, once again, for the appropriate donation, be given access to classified material regarding national threats, new and envisioned combat equipment, and military objectives. If you love military action/suspense films, you must vote Democrat in November!

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Speakout Your invitation to meet is intriguing, however, it also poses a dilemma. You see, I am a kuffar. Further more, I am a determined kuffar (unbeliever in Islam) who is opposed to Islam. I, as stated in the Qur'an, sow "corruption in the land". I have read in multiple places in the Qur'an that Muslims are, according to Muhammad, permitted to lie to kuffars. Here now is further proof I am a kuffar. I declare to you that Muhammad was a false prophet and that Allah is a false god. Now, as such a bold kuffar, how shall I know you are speaking truthfully to me and not lying to me as you are permitted to do by your false prophet Muhammad?

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

bk:Nothing in any of my posts indicate I would be tolerant of communism or Nazis. Your position is, therefore, erroneous at best and more than likely yet another of your attempts to mislead through adjective laden rhetoric.As noted in an earlier post, I only questioned your disingenuous approach to Speakout, but misleading seems to be your forte.As for your comments challenging me to "... name even one Islamic controlled or dominated nation where the freedoms enumerated in our bill of rights are afforded to the population" you do raise an interesting point. Frankly I can't because they don't exist, to my understanding. The point is that we-and by that I include you, Speakout and myself-live in the United States. Are the acts you complain of committed here? No. Yet people of the Islamic faith reside here and go about their lives peacefully. Are they any less entitled to the freedoms you and I live under because they are Muslims? The key is we don't live in or under Islamic domination. This is yet another compelling argument in support of the concept of separation of (any) Church and State; avoiding the resultant entanglement and inherent conflicts of interest as a result. The U.S. government would be equally well-served to avoid religious oversight of any kind, regardless of its origin. It's one thing to be a God fearing person and espouse a righteous life; it's another thing completely to force your religious and political concepts down the throats of another.You may recall that the Founding Fathers and the concepts they endorsed and you justifiably embrace included freedom of religion and from religious persecution. If you are the Super Patriot and All American you seem to want others to perceive you as, perhaps you would be well served to remain vigilant toward oppression and tyranny whether here or abroad while tempering your desire to label and define the religious freedoms of others who come here to live out the words inscribed upon the base of the Statue of Liberty: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door. From "The New Colossus"-Emma Lazarus.

Godot 6 years, 5 months ago

There you go, beaobachter, when you have no response to people who point out your candidate's inconsistencies, hypocrasies and lies, you are helpless to respond, you bring out the R word. We got your game.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Marion:I fear no fatwa, for I am confirmed in my beliefs and unshakeable in my confidence. Should they slay me, they shall slay innocent blood and that blood shall cry out from the ground to the God of Heaven, who's servent I am, for vengeance. And HE shall avenge me.

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

Oh Marion, King of hyperbole. When does your unit leave for the front lines of the war on YOU?Please, let it be soon; I'm laughing so hard it hurts.

beatrice 6 years, 5 months ago

Just as I thought. With the exception of the truly outrageous and not to be believed crystal skull allegation (where people get such crazy ideas I'll never know!), nobody has been able to prove that John McCain doesn't worship a statue of a golden monkey, which he has apparently been doing for the past 71 years. It is unclear how long his ancestors may have worshipped statues of golden monkeys. It could date back many centuries.The golden monkey issue is serious. McCain should confront the golden monkey issue. He should confront it now, later, and continuously, right up until he loses in a landslide in November.Then, he can go back to worshipping his statue of a golden monkey all he wants. RR: "BTW, Bush's predecessor received two draft notices. Can you tell us when he stepped foot in Vietnam during the war?" Clinton didn't set foot in Vietnam back then. Instead, he studied at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar before attending Yale Law School. Good point, RR.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Das_Ubermime Let me see if I understand you. Is what you are saying is that regardless of the idea / idealogy all ideas / idealogies are morally equivalent?

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

"Should they slay me, they shall slay innocent blood and that blood shall cry out from the ground to the God of Heaven, who's servent (sic) I am, for vengeance. And HE shall avenge me." bkWere this to happen, I'm sure your family and friends wouldn't appreciate the fact you suffered such an untimely death. Vengeance won't bring you back no matter who delivers it. Why try to engage Speakout, only to then attempt insult? Do you seek knowledge and thus understanding, whether or not you agree? Or are you merely doing so in an ethnocentric attempt to show you are somehow superior in thought or creed?

Speakout 6 years, 5 months ago

Well Mr Garner, you sure took me for a fool. I expected more from you, but not suprised. Yes, I guess if you consider yourself a Kuffar, then you are. We, Muslims, believe that those who do not believe in God or the last day, are kuffar (in English: non-believers). My god is as false as you want him to be for you and if he chooses not to guide you to truth or be there when you need Him, that is not my problem. You made me think you were honest and wanted true answers. I could give them to you but it would appear that I would be casting pearls before swine. We couldn't have that, now could we? What you wanted was to make a fool of me and perhaps, to some, you did. Well, I hope you can live happily that way, I can't. Best to you.

Bossa_Nova 6 years, 5 months ago

bondmen,why does God need a son? who was His wife? why does God need to sacrifice His child to forgive the world? why cant God forgive without a blood sacrifice? do these ideas not put restrictions on God's abilities? if God wants to forgive someone, then what's stopping Him from doing so?why does the biblical tradition of jesus (halfman-halfgod) sacrificing himself for the sins of the world sound so similar to the greek/roman mythological stories of gods impregnating human virgins who later had halfbreed god-man children that went on to save the world from sin? xtianity is a mixture of judaism and greek/roman mythology. how can you believe stories from writers who we know nothing about and who wrote their accounts hundreds of years after jesus' life on earth? your desperate belief in xtian mythology is just as fanatic as the wacko a@$#%holes who rammed commercial jets into the twin towers.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Bad Dog:No, I seek the end of Islam for it is destructive in all its aspects and seeks to end the freedoms of all people. Under Islam there is no freedom of religion. There is no freedom of the press, there is no freedom of assembly, there is no freedom of speech. Under Islam men and women are not treated equally. In fact, a woman is less valued than a man as witnessed by the facts and rules of witnesses in a Sharia Court. Why then should I not be opposed to Islam? Why should I be any less willing to defend my liberty and yours than did our founding fathers? Men such as Patrick Henry with his famous "Give me liberty, or give me death!" Or, have you become so comfortable in your freedom that you have forgotten the price paid to obtain it? Our founding fathers were men of courage who risked all to bring us liberty and the benefits thereof. Should I be any less willing? And, if I am, then am I not unworthy of the blessing they bestowed upon us at such great cost? No, Bad Dog. I am not less willing. And, if you are, then I feel sorry for you, for if you are unwilling to defend your liberty from those who would take it away and make you a slave then you are a miserable being who can only be kept free by the sacrifice of others.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

Espe said the school's investigation determined the student did not make a direct threat. "We certainly welcome (Hurd) in our district, and we hope we can get this all resolved so he feels welcome and his dog is welcome," Espe said. St. Cloud State places about 1,000 students in 240 schools to help prepare them for careers in education. In St. Cloud school district, 330 are in the field training program Hurd was in and 94 are in student teaching. Steffens said it is important to respect different cultures and the rights of disabled students. "I think this is part of the growth process when we become more diverse," Steffens said. Steffens called Hurd a good student and committed young man. Gary Loch, who is the diversity coordinator for the district, said the situation was an unfortunate case of miscommunication. "I'm not quite sure where the breakdown comes into play here," Loch said.It is important to note that the school district downplayed the matter, but the student teacher felt enough of a threat that he refused to return and his college elected to waive the remaining 10 hours. Obviously the college felt the threat was real enough.So, I ask. What was this I heard about Islam and tolerance???

bad_dog 6 years, 5 months ago

bk-your words alone are not defending 'freedom", they are merely posturing. As I stated above, it appears your only intent was to insult, not to develop understanding. Then again, why should you? It appears you already believe you have all the answers.Liberty takes many forms. This Republic arose based on tenets such as religious independence and tolerance of others and their beliefs. Your melodramatic ramblings do nothing to add to either principle and if you believe they do, then I too, feel equally sorry for your misguided soul. If you don't believe in Islam, that is your right. No one is forcing you to pray to Allah. I don't worship Allah either. I also oppose many of the practices members of their faith engage in. Nevertheless I don't feel compelled to confront another on the basis of their religious beliefs or failure to believe as you do. I only asked you a legitimate question about you methodology and sought an equally legitimate answer. Trust me, I know how to defend my country, my family and myself, regardless of your input or opinion. Likewise, I do not lack the willingness or desire to do that which becomes necessary.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

bad_dog I suppose, based on your latest post, that you would also be tolerant of communism and nazism. Afterall they are only harmless beliefs. Yet both involved the vast curtailment of freedom. Both required the citizen to be totally subservient to the state. In fact, both treated the citizen as if he or she were property of the state. IF Islam, and I mean the entire religion, were to renounce its totalitarian ways and demonstrate that by good conduct, I would feel differently about Islam. But can you or Speakout name even one Islamic controlled or dominated nation where the freedoms enumerated in our bill of rights are afforded to the population? I don't think you can. But, you are welcome to prove me wrong. So, since Islam seeks to end the freedoms I love and enjoy, I find no inconsistency with opposing such a dogma nor urging its eradication as the cancer on mankind that it is.

hwarangdo 6 years, 5 months ago

For those people who are petrified of Islam, Muslims will always be suspect of anything and everything. Too bad. Hitler didn't approve of the Jews either.However, for those people who support candidates for their beliefs, their hope for a better future, their honesty, and for believing - truly believing - in a strong America, those people do not let paranoia and ignorance sway them from their decisions.If one fears all Muslims, then one must in truth fear oneself - for what we suspect or dislike in others is merely a reflection of our own qualities. I for one support Obama - and I'm all American, born here, raised by proud American parents who served in WWII, am a white 58 year old female - and I am a Muslim. For those who would pass judgement, remember you will be judged by the Highest Judge - and He doesn't have a religion.Peace.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

She said, "When I arrived, I was told 'after school we have Islamic Studies,' and I might have to stay for hall duty. The teachers had written assignments on the blackboard for classes like math and social studies. Islamic Studies was the last one the board said the kids were studying the Quran. The students were told to copy it into their planner, along with everything else. That gave me the impression that Islamic Studies was a subject like any other."She also reported the fifth-graders stayed in the classroom after the end of the school day, and the "man in white" who led prayers during the assembly came in to teach Islam."TIZA has, in effect, extended the school day buses leave only after Islamic Studies are over," noted the columnist. "Getz did not see evidence of other extra-curricular activity, except for a group of small children playing outside."Kersten continued, "Significantly, 77 percent of TIZA parents say their 'main reason for choosing TIZA : was because of after-school programs conducted by various non-profit organizations at the end of the school period in the school building,' according to a TIZA report."Kersten noted earlier that the school shares the same building as the headquarters of the Muslim American Society of Minnesota, whose mission is "establishing Islam in Minnesota." There also is a mosque in the building, and TIZA's executive director, Asad Zaman, is a Muslim imam, and its sponsor is a group called Islamic Relief."Why does the Minnesota Department of Education allow this sort of religious activity at a public school?" Kersten questioned.She noted the ACLU of Minnesota is looking into the situation, and "the Minnesota Department of Education has also begun a review" now."TIZA's operation as a public, taxpayer-funded school is troubling on several fronts. TIZA is skirting the law by operating what is essentially an Islamic school at taxpayer expense," Kersten wrote. "The Department of Education has failed to provide the oversight necessary to catch these illegalities, and appears to lack the tools to do so. In addition, there's a double standard at work here if TIZA were a Christian school, it would likely be gone in a heartbeat."Kersten previously revealed other links between the school and Islam, including a carpeted space for prayer, halal food in the cafeteria and fasting for students during Ramadan.Just last year, the program for the 2007 MAS-Minnesota convention, under the motto "Establishing Islam in Minnesota" asked the question, "Did you know that MAS-MN : houses a full-time elementary school?"OK. Maybe 3 posts?

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

The project, headed by David Yerushalmi, a lawyer and expert on sharia law, has finished collecting data from the first cohort of 102 mosques and schools. Preliminary findings indicate that almost 80 percent of the group exhibit a high level of sharia-compliance and jihadi threat, including:Ultra-orthodox worship in which women are separated from men in the prayer hall and must enter the mosque from a separate, usually back, entrance; and are required to wear hijabs.Sermons that preach women are inferior to men and can be beaten for disobedience; that non-Muslims, particularly Jews, are infidels and inferior to Muslims; that jihad or support of jihad is not only a Muslim's duty but the noblest way, and suicide bombers and other so-called "martyrs" are worthy of the highest praise; and that an Islamic caliphate should one day encompass the U.S.Solicitation of financial support for jihad.Bookstores that sell books, CDs and DVDs promoting jihad and glorifying martyrdom.Though not all mosques in America are radicalized, many have tended to serve as safe havens and meeting points for Islamic terrorist groups. Experts say there are at least 40 episodes of extremists and terrorists being connected to mosques in the past decade alone.Some of the 9/11 hijackers, in fact, received aid and counsel from one of the largest mosques in the Washington, D.C., area. Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center is one of the mosques indentified by undercover investigators as a hive of terrorist activity and other extremism.It was founded and is currently run by leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood. Imams there preach what is called "jihad qital," which means physical jihad, and incite violence and hatred against the U.S.Dar al-Hijrah's ultimate goal, investigators say, is to turn the U.S. into an Islamic state governed by sharia law.Another D.C.-area mosque, the ADAMS Center, was founded and financed by members of the Muslim Brotherhood, and has been one of the top distributors of Wahhabist anti-Semitic and anti-Christian dogma.Even with such radical mosques operating in its backyard, the U.S. government has not undertaken its own systematic investigation of U.S. mosques.In contrast, European Union security officials are analyzing member-state mosques, examining the training and funding sources of imams, in a large-scale project.Some U.S. lawmakers want the U.S. to conduct its own investigation."We have too many mosques in this country," said Rep. Pete King, R-N.Y. "There are too many people who are sympathetic to radical Islam. We should be looking at them more carefully."

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

al-taqiyya: (Hopefully this link to this article will not violate the postinghttp://www.al-islam.org/Encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.htmlExcerpts: (It is a very long article)The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself fromphysical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."Some Sunnis assert that al-Taqiyya is an act of pure hypocrisy that serves to conceal the truth and reveal that which is the exact opposite (of the truth). Furthermore, according to those Sunnis, al-Taqiyya constitutes alack of faith and trust in Allah (SWT) because the person who conceals his beliefs to spare himself from eminent danger is fearful of humans, when, in fact, he should be fearful of Allah (SWT) only. As such, this person is acoward.Narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari, v7, p102, that Abu al-Darda' said: "(Verily) we smile for some people, while our hearts curse (those same people)."And this one was interesting:Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).I particularly liked the part about husbands and wives.The bottom line for me is, after reading this article and others, Muslims are permitted to lie under several circumstances, one of which may well involve lying to unbelievers in order to advance the cause of Allah.

Brent Garner 6 years, 5 months ago

I understand your feelings about worldnetdaily however, note that what they are doing is reporting an article published in a local newspaper. This is not their own. You may also get a kick out of this one. This is one from St. Cloud, MN.Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 7:08:52 AM by SJacksonA St. Cloud State University student in a teacher-training program at Technical High School left the school in late April because he says he feared for the safety of his service dog. The school district calls it a misunderstanding, and officials there say they hoped Tyler Hurd, a 23-year-old junior from Mahtomedi who aspires to teach special education, would continue his training in the district. Hurd said a student threatened to kill his service dog named Emmitt. The black lab is trained to protect Hurd when he has seizures. The seizures, which can occur weekly, are from a childhood injury. The dog has a pouch on his side that assists those who stop to help Hurd. Hurd said he was unable to finish his 50 hours of field training at Tech. The university waived the remaining 10 hours, he said. He plans to do his student teaching outside a high school setting. "We came up with a solution because I felt threatened by it," Hurd said. The school district and university are working to make sure a similar situation doesn't happen. Kate Steffens, dean of the college of education at St. Cloud State, and Tech assistant principal Lori Lockhart met Thursday. The threat came from a Somali student who is Muslim, according to Hurd, St. Cloud State and school district officials. The Muslim faith, which is the dominant faith of Somali immigrants, forbids the touching of dogs. Hurd trained at Talahi Community School and Tech. He said his experience at Talahi was good. The Somali students there warmed to the dog and eventually petted him using paper to keep their hands off his fur, Hurd said. Things didn't go as well at Tech, Hurd said. Students there taunted his dog, and he finally felt he had to leave after he was told a student made a threat. Hurd met with Lockhart but said he did not feel comfortable continuing. Julia Espe, director of curriculum, instruction and assessment for St. Cloud school district, said the school needed to do a better job communicating. "I think it was a misunderstanding where we didn't really prepare either side for possible implications," Espe said. Espe said the school's investigation determined the student did not make a direct threat. "We certainly welcome (Hurd) in our district, and we hope we can get this all resolved so he feels welcome and his dog is welcome," Espe said. (cont)

Sandra Willis 6 years, 5 months ago

False Prophets? We have been listening to them for too long.Invictus: that "quote" you gave has been making the rounds in e-mails for a long time. It is just SPAM!Why is this country acting so fearfully - because the only things hat make the rounds in email now are spam sent by people who are not thinking; just reacting in the easiest way.

Bossa_Nova 6 years, 5 months ago

bondmen, i know for a fact that the bible is not well documented at all and we know very little about the writers of bible who were NOT eyewitnesses (mathew, mark, luke and john? eyewitnesses? ha! that's not what i learned at seminary!). the bible would NOT stand up in a court of law. by saying it would just proves to me how ignorant you are. this is what most wacko xtian fanatics dont understand; how foolishly ignorant they look when making outlandish statements such as "The events described in the Bible are from original eyewitness accounts and are so well documented they stand up in a court of law where both evidence and provenance are required." good lord man! why are you making such a BS statement when even your own pastor or priest, if he truly has studied the origins of the bible and is honest with himself and with you, wouldnt even agree with you. why do you think i dropped out of seminary and left the church? because i coudnt continue lying to myself and to others. knowingly lying about God is blasphemy. that's why i am not a xtian.

Bossa_Nova 6 years, 5 months ago

Daytrader,you and i must be kindred spirits. you hit it right on the nose exactly when you say, "I wonder if Christians actually know the real history of the bible. And if they did why do they still believe this B.S" it's like you were reading my mind.

Daytrader23 6 years, 5 months ago

Bondmen says There is only one Creator God. He is the God of the Holy Bible where He reveals His truths to those who seek and love Him. Allah is not this God because everybody should know Allah has NO son. Therefore Jesus Christ, who is God's Son, is not the god of the Koran and could never be according to Mohammad's own words. Wake up folks!I say, This is the kind of stupidity I am talking about. Allah is translated into.....guess what.....God. So Allah is God. But YOUR version of the same fairy tale tells you he is not. Because you can only access God through Christ. Which is how the pagans who wrote your book, controlled power for centuries in Europe. They changed the fairy tale a little bit, added a new character and then burned anybody who disagreed with this new "improved" version. They even burned the original followers of Jesus Christ himself. Why? Because they knew he was not the son of god but a prophet at best. I wonder if Christians actually know the real history of the bible. And if they did why do they still believe this B.S Even as a child who was forced to go to church every sunday I realized that the bible was a load of crap and could not possibly be true. I guess I wasn't cut out to be another sheep in the flock.

bondmen 6 years, 5 months ago

Daytrader23 and Bossa_Nova,You both show your hard hearts to the truth and have replaced it with lies others thought up long before you were even born. You are crying out in pain, frustration and anger and at the same time pushing away the Spirit of life which could remove the scales from your eyes.The Bible is better documented than any of the books written by the great ancient authors, i.e., the Bible has by an order of magnitude more original manuscripts in the early languages in agreement one with the other even as to jot and tittle.The events described in the Bible are from original eyewitness accounts and are so well documented they stand up in a court of law where both evidence and provenance are required.Now each of us is governed by someones word. It would be most interesting if you'd tell us whose word it is you hang your eternity on? Surely you have faith in your beliefs or are they merely anti-Christian rants with no substantiation or alternative belief set?

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