Archive for Tuesday, April 22, 2008

Students protest concealed carry ban

Kansas University junior Eric Stein displays a gun  holster that he wore to class Monday. Stein, a member of the national Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, is participating in a week-long protest aimed at promoting concealed carry on college campuses.

Kansas University junior Eric Stein displays a gun holster that he wore to class Monday. Stein, a member of the national Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, is participating in a week-long protest aimed at promoting concealed carry on college campuses.

April 22, 2008

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Student group protests campus gun ban

If a group of KU students has its way, licensed Kansas could carry concealed firearms on campus. Enlarge video

On the street

Do you think Kansas University should allow students with permits to carry concealed weapons on campus?

I would say no. I don’t really see the point of the concealed carry law in the first place, especially on a college campus.

More responses

If Eric Stein gets his way, students at Kansas University would be allowed to bring concealed weapons to campus - so long as they have the proper state permit.

Stein, a Topeka junior, is the president of the local chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, which has organized a nationwide "Empty Holsters" protest for this week. The campaign involves members of SCCC wearing their holsters to class and on campus - but without guns - as a visual reminder that concealed carry on campus is illegal, which members of the group object.

"Since the (Northern Illinois) shooting, it's become abundantly clear to a lot of students that no-gun signs, no-carry signs on campus really don't do anything to mitigate a situation such as a campus shooter," Stein said. Six students died, including the shooter, when a man opened fire in a classroom at Northern Illinois University in February.

SCCC reports having 52 members at KU. Members support allowing licensed students to carry firearms on campus, though not all members are interested in carrying.

"I don't know if I feel comfortable carrying on campus right now, but I would be more comfortable on campus if people on our side could carry," said SCCC member Brittany Ramos, an Air Force ROTC cadet from Overland Park.

Ramos added that she feels safe on campus during the day, though not as safe at night. Ramos said the empty holster project was a way to draw publicity to the cause without violence and without scaring people.

"KU regulations and state law are very clear on this subject, but students are welcome to express their opinions," KU spokeswoman Jill Jess said.

The Kansas Board of Regents last week endorsed a no-weapons policy on all of its campuses and directed campus leaders to devise a common set of standards for posting no-weapons signs and handling violators. Right now, KU forbids people from carrying while driving on campus streets or while parked on campus.

"Securing our campuses is an ongoing challenge, and our work will never be done in this arena. However, we must never forget that continued diligence on this issue is a vital priority," Christine Downey-Schmidt, regents chairwoman, said.

Stein said there are successful examples of concealed carry at college campuses in five states.

"In Utah, all nine universities allow concealed carry on campus. Colorado State and a community college in Virginia allow concealed carry," Stein said. "There are a combined 60 semesters on those campuses without an increase in gun violence or negligent shootings."

Comments

warthog 7 years ago

No "negligent shootings." So, if you shoot someone and you're careful about it, it's okay...Why is that I don't feel safe having kids... and yes, they are kids... carrying guns on a college campus? Guns are not toys. They are not status symbols. They aren't something you use as a fashion statement. Guns are for one purpose. They are designed to kill. Yes, I know cars kill. That is not their intended design. Guns have their place and the University of Kansas campus is not it. If you want a fashion statement to impress your girlfriend with, get a new cell phone or an ipod. At least when you've been binge drinking in the dorm and someone makes you mad the worst thing you could do is call them up or maybe play some loud music.

The_Voice_of_Reason 7 years ago

Guns are NOT designed to kill people, their designed for hunting and self defense warthog, it's their misuse that makes them dangerous. Remember the second amendment is there to protect the first one. And P.S I don't have a carry permit nor do I own a gun, but it's every Americans right to have and carry one if they so chose.

situveux1 7 years ago

Sorry, but last time I checked 18 meant you were an adult, not a kid.The fact is concealed carry has decreased violent crime in states where it has passed. I wonder why this wouldn't apply to a campus as well as the rest of the state? What is special about a college campus that this trend wouldn't apply here as well?As a KU student, I'd feel safer knowing there just might be somebody around me that could save my life someday by shooting someone like the Virginia Tech shooter.Also, anybody that thinks carrying a gun at KU is popular is very out of touch with reality.

stuckinthemiddle 7 years ago

well... I think it would be interesting to know what the folks from the KU police department think about this... both officially... and individually...if there is an "active shooter" on campus would KUPD think it would be a good idea to have a bunch of people running around with guns drawn?and... this is interesting:"I don't know if I feel comfortable carrying on campus right now, but I would be more comfortable on campus if people on our side could carry" what does she mean by "people on our side"?

bondmen 7 years ago

There are voluminous documented reports of people defending themselves from violent attackers using a firearm. http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.htmlIt's nice to know some people are willing to take responsibility for their own safety rather than becoming a victim by waiting for someone else to come along and save them.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

I think that only idiots should be allowed to carry weapons. There should be a test. If you fail, you get a gun. If you mispell your name, you get ammunition. If you wrongfully kill somebody, you get to live in the land of idiots...and more ammunition. How else can we expect the land of idiots to become the home of the free and the brave?~)Grow a pair (of side arms), chicken little!~) Remember...Without side arms...ummm...arms get in the way of sex?~)Just kidding...

rcr 7 years ago

"Sorry, but last time I checked 18 meant you were an adult, not a kid."To be granted a permit to carry in the state of Kansas you must be 21 years old, which would eliminate a good portion of students from legally carrying a handgun.

fu7il3 7 years ago

"Why is that I don't feel safe having kids: and yes, they are kids: carrying guns on a college campus?"You have to be 21 to get a concealed carry permit, I believe.

jafs 7 years ago

I believe the original intent of the second amendment was to ensure that citizens would be able to defend our country against attack (well-regulated militia), or perhaps even against a repressive government.I'm not sure how concealed carry on college campuses protects anyone's right to free speech.Why don't we try to identify and intervene in situations that are likely to result in violence, rather than waiting until it occurs? In almost all of the school shootings, there were clear indications beforehand that something might happen.

fu7il3 7 years ago

The question becomes what do you do about those indications if the person is unwilling to accept any sort of help or counselling. You can't violate someone's civil rights just because they might be the type of person that would do something.

mom_of_three 7 years ago

"As a KU student, I'd feel safer knowing there just might be somebody around me that could save my life someday by shooting someone like the Virginia Tech shooter."As a KU student, i don't.

Jason Bailey 7 years ago

Concealed carry is something I personally struggle with. I'm a staunch conservative but I think this points at treating symptoms of the disease instead of treating the root cause.Why do we have nutjobs that decide to go postal and start shooting at people? In 99% of the cases that I've read regarding the psychological condition of those that commit these crimes, the problem started in their youth. Broken homes, abuse, neglect, and the natural starving for attention that every child needs during those formative years is the root cause of this disease.Parents are increasingly AWOL when it comes to raising their children correctly and in a loving environment. I'm a Gen X'er and I witness many parents my age simply failing at their duties as parents. They set boundaries that are not enforced (a form of abuse), they give their kids anything their little hearts desire (a form of abuse), they ignore their children due to their own selfishness. I've seen so many grandparents essentially doing the job of raising their grandchildren while the parents are out cavorting at bars every weekend or otherwise destroying the family structure that needs to be present in the life of a child.This problem is only going to get worse....

50YearResident 7 years ago

Keep in mind that permit holders have to be 21 or older so those immature students will not have the permit to carry. There won't be mass hysteria when or if self defense is required.

situveux1 7 years ago

"Why don't we try to identify and intervene in situations that are likely to result in violence, rather than waiting until it occurs?"Yea, that's worked out so well in past.I'm sure if someone knew something was going to happen that they'd just sit on it. Nobody ever thinks this is going to happen until it does.Also, free speech is in the first amendment, not the second. A citizens right to bear arms has really nothing to do with free speech. That right is guaranteed independent of the second amendment.

Greg Yother 7 years ago

"it's every Americans right to have and carry one if they so choose."...but it's every University's right to ban them on their campus if they so choose.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

jafs and mom,It seems that you don't understand the intent of the 2nd Amendment (Ask SCOTUS.) or believe in your natural right to self-defense. That's fine. You're free to give up your rights...but not mine. We can argue about restrictions. That's fine.We can whine about our fears. That's fine.We can pretend that we're pouring gasoline on a fire and speculate as to the results...but I think it's fair to ask to see some flame before we continue in this attempt to deny people their rights. Do we REALLY not have enough rules are in place?!There are a lot of people legally carrying out there. I don't see them running amok. Do you?I understand that people fear guns and would prefer that they didn't exist. I understand that people think that, even if it takes a thousand years, it is worth beginning to try to eliminate guns from this world. I understand that the tooth fairy will provide hard currency for one of a set of hard, bone-like structures fallen from sockets in the jaws of vertebrates. Strike that!~)

fu7il3 7 years ago

I'll admit it. I have a Glock. It's not pretty. It's not a competition gun. It's filled with .45 jacketed hollow points that would make a hell of a mess out of someone, and hides easily on my body. That gun was designed for one thing, and causing a lot of damage to whoever attempts to harm me or my family is it.That being said, there is nothing wrong with that. I carry it legally, and will probably never use it on anything but paper targets.But it's nice to know it is there if I my life, or my family's lives depend on it.

EXks 7 years ago

someone's been watching too many episodes of 'Gunsmoke'

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

logrithmic says:Only the extremely paranoid would carry a weapon into a college classroom for that 1 in a million chance to confront a nutjob.---The job of the nut job is to call out nut jobs. I'm here!~) We're all nut jobs, here. I have a nut job question. Is there a greater than 1-in-a-million chance that the legal holder of a concealed carry permit will cause a problem in the 1-in-a-million-times that a nut job goes...err...campus(kinda like postal)? I'd say that math and experience says "NO!"------------------------------------------------------------------The extremely paranoid will say, oh but it is our right to carry a weapon into class!---I would say it's their right at a public institution, if they have a CC permit. That doesn't make me paranoid. I think the paranoia is in your mirror.------------------------------------------------------------------I wonder how the extremely paranoid would react to...a police state on campus?---You "if" is wrong, so your "then" is wrong and your police state seems really silly. I KNOW silly!~)

geekin_topekan 7 years ago

I am not an advocate for guns but I did hear one good point in this cluster;"You need to be 21 to carry"Otherwise,in the article the ther day students pointed out that DO carry on campus regardless.So they have already demonstrated they are NOT law abiding citizens and refuse to follow the laws.That is what bothers me.Students carrying guns ILLEGALLY on campus.What part of "illegal" dont they understand?And remember,every illegal gun in a criminal's hands was legal at one time.I would hate to see a KU student disarmed and killed with his with his own weapon.

vpete69 7 years ago

Geekin_topekan...that was me that said that I carry regardless. I dont have to have a license, nor obey the signs. My occupation allows for this. Thanks, have a good day.

kusp8 7 years ago

"As a KU student, I'd feel safer knowing there just might be somebody around me that could save my life someday by shooting someone like the Virginia Tech shooter."Yeah, maybe we could hire the Topeka PD. They seem to be pretty good at using excessive force. It would suck to get pulled over for having a brake light out, but they'd sure be ready if a VT of NIU happened at KU. Just kidding. But as a KU student I wouldn't have a problem with allowing the various ROTC organizations to carry them. But I don't really have a strong opinion either way.So, in summation, I just want to remind everybody to e-mail the city and ask that they change 19th street from Iowa to James Naismith to Bill Self Boulevard (or Drive)!

Kevin Sontag 7 years ago

Yay! A reason to share funny Simpsons quotes! ...Guns aren't toys- they're for family protection, hunting dangerous and delicious animals, and keeping the king of England out your face. When I held that gun in my hand, I felt a surge of power... like God must feel when he's holding a gun.A gun is a tool. Like a butcher knife, or a harpoon, or uhh... an alligator.

mom_of_three 7 years ago

JJE - no, you don't know anything about me or else you wouldn't ask the questions you did or make the obviously wrong assumptions. There are interpretations to the amendment in question, and jafs and I agree on one of the interpretations. You follow the other interpretation.

mom_of_three 7 years ago

KU does post no carry signs on stop signs as you enter campus. Let me ask this and I want an honest answer. If they (KU)don't want guns on campus, then why can't you just abide by their request?

mom_of_three 7 years ago

Who cares about the legal weight? They don't want guns on campus. Can't you consider it a request, like when your mother asks you not to drag mud into the house.....And according to the 4-18 article, campuses can ban guns. So who is going to figure out who is right?

mom_of_three 7 years ago

Folks, have fun with the debate. I will wait to see who is actually right, since the campuses think they can ban it, and shatt thinks they can't.

affreca 7 years ago

As a KU student, I do not want guns on campus. A gun is not the only way to defend yourself against a shooter. Words. My high school biology teacher had a gun pulled on him in study hall. He controlled the situation, talked the shooter down, and nobody was hurt. I admit, it isn't possible in all situations, but would he have been able to manage if another student pulled out a gun?I do appreciate the urge to fight against the shooters. I wish more people tried (one prof in VT did put himself in between the shooter and his students, Ecole Polytechnique was more tradegic because the male students allowed themselves to be seperated from the female students). But if you think a gun is the only way, you're blind.

geekin_topekan 7 years ago

Hey KU students,I know how you can get guns on campus.Pay an extra $250-500 for a campus permit.I am sure the regents will go for that or at least give it consideration.Also,get alcohol back on campus!Then we will have free flowing beer AND firearms!Woohoo!!Party till you puke!

fu7il3 7 years ago

Somebody spends months debating, planning, and executing a shooting.Do you feel confident enough in your speaking ability to put yourself between that gun and those people and talk your way out of it. Most instances you would be dead before you got through the first sentence. In most of these school shootings they are opening fire before anyone even knows what is happening.

justthefacts 7 years ago

Shat - you may even BE a lawyer, I do not know - but your reading of the concealed carry law is not universally accepted by all lawyers or regulators. There is a a dispute over that issue among lawyers who deal with these issues. Whether a university can lawfully prohibit guns (concealed or otherwise) on university property (not just inside buildings) is a question that may eventually have to be resolved by the courts or the lawmakers. Whether they should = a policy issue.

situveux1 7 years ago

"Can't you consider it a request, like when your mother asks you not to drag mud into the house:.."Oh yes, let's do that!"Please Mr. Shooter, if you would, I'd appreciate it if you didn't bring that nasty old gun to school! I mean, I know you intend to kill as many people as possible and then probably yourself, but if you could, please don't do that....Now, listen here young man...if you don't put that gun away, I'm going to have to spank you!"

Bruce Bertsch 7 years ago

Shatt - KU is STATE owned property. Not city or county. It is governed by a STATE agency not a city or county, thus the rules regarding citites and counties are mute. The entire campus is posted legally. Every parking lot and building is posted as well.

gogoplata 7 years ago

So it is ok to have these kids carrying on the streets of Iraq but here at home they are less competent?

ConcernedCynic 7 years ago

Here's an idea - if you feel threatened / paranoid on campus and you don't like KU's concealed carry ban, don't go on campus!

Oldshooter 7 years ago

You are missing the point of concealed carry. It has nothing to do with curing social ills, teaching your kids to respect others, etc. It only has to do with being able to save your own life, and perhaps the lives of those in your vicinity, when everything else has already failed to keep you safe. It's not a fashion statement, and I don't feel any more macho or heroic wearing a gun than I do wearing a seatbelt. I have never met a concealed carry license holder who wants to shoot. We are all taught that we should avoid any situation with that potential like the plague, by running away, if possible. We are also taught that every bullet fired has a lawyer attached to it, and our life will be thoroughly ruined if we ever have to fire in self-defense. Nonetheless, many of us have decided we would rather be ruined than dead or maimed. The fact that the society as a whole seems to benefit by a highly correlated reduction in violent crime whereever CC is allowed, is entirely secondary, nice, but secondary. There is no "right to feel safe" in this or any other country, but there most assuredly IS a "right to defend oneself" with an appropriate degree of force, including lethal force, in this country. The founding fathers recognized that it would sometimes be necessary to be able to defend oneself against those of nefarious intent who were younger, stronger, meaner, armed, even those acting under color of law (as in a tyrannical government), thus, their 2nd amendment, without which the federalists were unable to sell the rest of the constitution to the states. This is clearly an individual right, as the SCOTUS will shortly confirm.

stuckinthemiddle 7 years ago

I don't care if people carry guns: if they feel unsafe without one: then maybe they should: but the whole idea that someone with a ccl on a campus is going to take out an active shooter: well: the chances are so very slim: and it seems to me to be a bit of a fantasy for some folks:

Oldshooter 7 years ago

On the issue of those who want to be able to carry on campus being paranoid, I think the shoe is on the wrong foot and perhaps some psych 101 review is in order. 1) To be paranoid involves having a delusional belief system (usually involving the idea that one is being personally threatened). A delusional system is an irrational belief that is not based on a false premise, not on facts; therefore, no amount of conflicting data can change it. 2) Being afraid of an object (knives, snakes, airplanes, guns, etc.) is also irrational, since objects are not, in and of themselves, threatening. This is called a phobia. Thus, someone who is afraid of guns has, by definition, a phobia, which is a psychological disorder (one that is relatively amenable to treatment and can usually be overcome). Someone who is afraid of people carrying guns in their vicinity is paranoid, because the belief that anyone in the vicinity with a gun presents a threat or danger to you, personally, is irrational and flies in the face of a HUGE amount of data to the contrary (see the studies by Lott, Kleck, Mustard, et. al). This one is harder to treat, but cognitive-behavioral psychologists can usually make headway against it. Oh, and the idea that someone who wants to carry a gun is making up for feelings of sexual inadequacy? That's also grossly in error. Check out Freud's first book. He specifically addresses the issue, and considers the FEAR of guns to be pathological, not the desire to own or carry them, which was actually quite common among people of his class, in his day. He likely carried one himself. So to put this all together: If I want to take responsibility for myself and carry a gun to protect myself or others, I am acting normally, just as it would be normal for me to wear a seatbelt (interestingly, the probability of getting into a car wreck, is about the same as the probability of becoming a crime victim), or to learn CPR. However, someone who is afraid of guns, or feels threatened at the thought that others iaround him/her might be carrying a gun, is suffering from a psychological disorder, either a phobia or paranoia.

Lindsey Buscher 7 years ago

I think that it will be too easy for these kids to get confused with "vigilante justice" carrying their guns and looking to be the "hero" to stop the next school shooting. we already have people on campus who carry, they're called cops...and they are professionally trained to diffuse dangerous situations. I could maybe understand ROTC officers carrying, but not a student with a permit and practice, but no formal/constant training.

Lindsey Buscher 7 years ago

can these "carrying kids" a) guarantee that they will be there if something goes down, and b) know how to act appropriately?They are evoking Kaiser Soze on another gun-related blog, so i do the same here: "How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"I don't think these conceal carry kids will be able to diffuse a dangerous situation without putting even more people in danger...at least not without proper training, NOT just practice.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

I'm not sure what that means BTS? Not one THING will STOP crazies from bringing guns to campus.I think the point is that knowing legal concealed carry permit holders are in your midst could perhaps DETER crazies from bringing guns to campus. CC permittees could conceivably even save a life or two by drawing their side arms.THAT is what's open to our meaningless speculation!~)

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

"What rolls down stairs alone or in pairs Rolls over your neighbor's dog? What's great for a snack and fits on your back? It's Log, Log, Log! It's Log, Log, it's big, it's heavy, it's wood. It's Log, Log, it's better than bad, it's good! Everyone wants a log! You're gonna love it, Log! Come on and get your log! Everyone needs a Log!"It's rithmic, don't you think? I mean rhythmic.I mean...JEEZ, man...YOU are calling me paranoid and psychopathic? Heh... Good one. Spend a little more time on your next post, log. You're not looking crazy eNOUGH!By the way, I feel NO need to carry. I also feel NO need to fear those who carry...so...Who's more paranoid? I think I've got you beat in that department. I won't even go into the psychopath department...I just hope you stay locked up in there!~) Nobody is out to hurt you. Relax.

ConcernedCynic 7 years ago

Oldshooter - Actually, I own a 12 gauge shotgun for pheasant hunting. I am not afraid of guns, or for that matter most people that carry guns. I just think that if you do not like to go to places where you can't bring your gun (because you do not feel safe without your gun) then don't go to those places. It is quite simple.

BigAl 7 years ago

I am a veteran. I have rasied my family and live happily in Lawrence. Outside of my military service, I have never felt the need nor had the desire to carry a gun. But then again, I don't feel the need to compensate for other shortcomings.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

Log,It's mind boggling how you're able to transmogrify reality in that head of yours. Your ability to ignore what you choose not to hear/read/understand is legendary in this neck of the woods. What do you bring to the table in the way of "intelligent conversation"? In response to my positing that CC could perhaps be a deterrence to a shooter, you say...---Could perhaps? Is that the same as definitely maybe?Regards your hope that you, the great protector, will stand vigilant guard over us, the great unwashed, and will, by your sword so intimidate those with other swords that they will not dare bring their swords to the castle: well, it's all really laughable.---You want me to have an intelligent conversation with THAT?~) Dude...again...check that mirror...See the pot?~)

Dixie Jones 7 years ago

GUNS dont kill ppl ,,, idiots do....

Dixie Jones 7 years ago

just was does getting a permit to carry consist of? just curious thanks

Lindsey Buscher 7 years ago

The bottom line is that the "police power" of government is an implied power in the constitution. like it or not CC jackasses, it's the govt's job to protect the health, safety, and welfare of ALL people in our country, NOT the NRA, and last I checked, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus is NOT a militia. So if everyone CC, then that is a deterrent for nut-jobs, right? How's this for a deterrent: No guns on campus, period. To me, there is no difference between a (non-ROTC) student carrying and a "nut-job" carrying--neither is part of the police power of our government, and neither is part of a militia charged with protecting the people at KU.Case closed, keep CC off of State and Federal property, period!

Oldshooter 7 years ago

Concerned Cynic - In fact, I generally Do avoid going places where I'm not allowed to carry, not because I'm worried about needing a gun, but on the same rationale that causes me to eschew KKK rallies. I don't like bigotry and prejudice, and I believe everyone's civil rights are, and should remain, inviolate. The fact is that my right to carry a gun, which the constitution intended to prevent the government from denying me, is as important to me, as being black is to Jesse Jackson. If a university can ban carrying a gun (clearly a violation of my civil rights), why can't they ban black people next (another clear violation of civil rights)? The same rationale, erroneous stereotypes at odds with lots of research data, is used to support both arguments. If a significant percentage of students and administrators feel uncomfortable, or even unsafe, is that a reason to deny someone their civil rights? That EXACT argument was used 50 years ago about why blacks would not be "conducive to the learning environment" at many universities. With time, we overcame that prejudice, now it's time for us to overcome THIS one.

stuckinthemiddle 7 years ago

~chuckle~damn... now that's funny...

Lindsey Buscher 7 years ago

So laws aren't in place to protect the safety, health, and welfare of people? Laws are completely arbitrary, are they? Do we have any police officer posters on this board who care to respond?And this law is in no way restricting the right to bear arms, it is restricting both CC on State/Federal property. There are already laws restricting possession on State.Federal property, as there should be (I'd like to hear Shatt-head try to argue a case for CC at the White House or the Capital).

Oldshooter 7 years ago

And Puggy - You really need to reread the constitution mate. It is most definitely NOT the job of the government to protect the health (never mentioned anywhere-and a real streeeetch for the "Common Welfare" clause), or safety of the public. In fact, in several court cases over the past decade, the police have NEVER been held liable for protecting anyone individually, even when they were clearly negligent in enforcing protective orders, or were grossly late responding to 911 calls. Their job is to arrest possible perpetrators and hold them for prosecution - that's it! They "protect" the public, in the most general sense, only by making it more likely that criminals will be punished for their crimes. They are sometimes asked to "preserve the public order" in cases of riot or civil unrest, etc., but are NEVER responsible for protecting individuals. I have nothing against the police, but they are NOT going to be there if someone decides to attack you. The perpetrator is simply going to wait until they are elsewhere before attacking you. And, just FYI, the Students for Concealed Carry actually ARE the militia, at least all the "able-bodied" ones over 18 are. Besides, CC folks aren't there to protect YOU, they are trying to protect THEM, and you're WAY off base trying to tell them they don't have that right. That IS in the constitution - see the 2nd amendment.

Lindsey Buscher 7 years ago

Oldshooter, are you REALLY trying to compare the historic and current plight of minorities (particularly African Americans) to the people who aren't allowed to CC?Well, if that argument doesn't show your age. AND FOR THE LAST TIME, NO ONE IS RESTRICTING THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS, JUST NOT ON STATE/FEDERAL PROPERTY. The bottom line is that we want to keep our college students as safe as possible to ensure the propagation of rational thought; education holds the key to eradicating spiteful/ignorant groups of people...particularly those who think that CC laws restrict Civil Rights the same way the Rights of African Americans were (are) suppressed.

stuckinthemiddle 7 years ago

speaking of the 2nd amendment...are the words "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" thrown in there for the hell of it? or should we just throw those words out... as to not confuse the issue of people, as individuals carrying concealed guns?somehow I think those rather bright fellows who penned the bill of rights didn't just throw things in there for the hell of it... there is intent in those words...if they intended for the 2nd amendment to be designed to protect the right of people to protect themselves from crazy mass murderers it might have read:"A well armed individual, being necessary to the security of the individual:"

Lindsey Buscher 7 years ago

Police Power (and i am not referring to Police officers) is the most basic/essential function of our Government, so much so that that is a large focus for first-year law students. The 2nd amendment of the constitution does not include a provision to protect the right to bear arms on government property.And how does our Militia member protect himself in a crowd when there is another shooter? He shoots the shooter, right? So how do you shoot the devil? What if you miss?In protecting his own life, then the shooter is likely to endanger the lives of others, thereby infringing on their right to life and liberty (again, see Equal Protections Clause, 14th Amendment).Again, you have the right to bear arms as per the 2nd Amendment, just keep them off of State/Federal property. Do you think, even if you were allowed to, you would bring a gun into the White House?

Oldshooter 7 years ago

BuiltToSpill commented that this whole thing was too stupid to debate because the past has proved that there is no place on campus for guns. Actually, the past has very clearly demonstrated just the opposite. Until the mid-1970s virtually all universities had rifle teams, lots of them had all sorts of students with guns in their dorm rooms, and there were no problems. The first mass shooting at a school occurred in the late 1960s at UT Austin, when a mass murderer locked himself on the upper balcony of the campus clock tower and started randomly shooting students walking past. Cops were unable to do anything about it at first because they didn't have anything that could reach him, but students, many of whom had rifles in their pickups (I mentioned it was TEXAS didn't I?) shot back at him. They effectively kept his head down until 3 people (1 armed policeman and 2 armed civilians) broke down the upstairs door and killed him. He never was able to hit another student once they started shooting back, although it was half an hour or more before he was actually taken out. No innocent bystanders were injured. So until those guns that "had no place on campus" came into play, he was shooting down innocent passersby...but not after that...HHMMMNnnnn.

gogoplata 7 years ago

Those smart guys you refer to used the word militia instead of army. That is why the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The guys that wrote the constitution knew that guns gave the weak a means to protect themselves from the strong. It is common sense. Carrying a gun for self defense is a sensible thing to do. That doesn't mean that if you don't carry one you are stupid. It just means that in the society we live in you could get into a situation where you would benefit from having a gun to protect yourself. Pro gun advocates are not saying that a gun is your guarantee to safety. It just gives you an advantage you would not have without one. Who can argue that criminals prey on the weak everyday in this country? Guns give the weak a greater ability to keep themselves safe. And thats the bottom line, cause Stone Cold said so!

Oldshooter 7 years ago

Puggy - 1) Yes, I certainly am comparing the two. Tell me how infringing my civil rights as a black man is different from infringing them as a CC license holder. Civil rights are civil rights, they are fundamentally the same, and yes, I'm showing my age (There's a reason for my username). I remember the exact same arguments being made about black people several decades ago, as are being made about CC folks today. They are still wrong and for the same reasons that they were wrong then. If you see any logical difference, show me where I'm wrong, please. 2) No, I would not carry a gun into the White House, nor into the secure section of the airport, nor into my local courthouse. But those places all have something in common. They make an effort to protect everyone there by using metal-detectors, armed guards, etc. On a college campus, I am at the mercy of any nutjob who is looking for a target-rich environment that won't shoot back. Worse, we advertise it all over the place! 3) How do you shoot the devil - right between the horns hoss, right between the horns! I am well aware of my obligation not to shoot innocent bystanders while defending myself, but I find it amazing that so many of you seem to think that we CC guys don't care about that. You should check the stats on your chances of getting shot by accident ("wrongfully") by cops relative to your chances with a CC license holder. It's enough to make you start avoiding cops. 4) Why should I keep my guns off state or federal property? I OWN that property (along with you, of course). I often have no recourse but to use it, as for example, the Post Office. Now you want to deny me my civil rights where I HAVE to go? 5) As for keeping our students safe, that's precisely my goal. You seem to differ primarily in that you erroneously think it would somehow become more dangerous if we allowed CC on campus. ALL, I repeat, ALL the evidence, of which there is now a goodly amount, indicates the very opposite.

KS 7 years ago

Let's see.....conceal carry is legal except, except, except, except, except, except.......! Get the picture? Why make it legal when you can't? The whole purpose is for protection and that includes college campuses. Don't own a gun and don't intend to, but like smokers rights (don't do that either), some things just need protected.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

logrithmic says:JJE - you wrote "I think the point is that knowing legal concealed carry permit holders are in your midst could perhaps DETER crazies from bringing guns to campus."logrithmic says:Let's start with agreeing that those were your words. And you've left yourself wiggle room in those words. Which means in my book "definitely maybe."---The "wiggle room" means "definitely maybe"? I don't have a real problem with your interpretation there.--------------------------------------------------------------------logrithmic says:I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence supporting your major premises:a) That college campuses are under siege from psychopaths willing to wreak havoc with weapons.b) That by permitting paranoid people to carry weapons on campus will sovle the problem.---Both of what you refer to as "my premises" are figments of your imagination. They're your assumptions.I don't know where you came up with this notion that I think college campuses are "under siege from psychopaths willing to wreak havoc with weapons." Perhaps that's just how you attempt to create this illusion of paranoia in those who promote RTKBA.You also make assumptions about the psychological motivations of people who carry concealed and/or who wish for criminals and psychopaths to be aware that some people are carrying concealed.You're free to believe what you believe. I have a right to believe what I believe. I don't think there's much of a chance of us coming to consensus about what's motivating our views or whether our views matter!~)

Charles L Bloss Jr 7 years ago

I support the students completely. With all the psycho shootings at schools & colleges, a no gun sign is the same as an open season on people sign. Don't you think that doesn't enter their heads too, because it does. That is why so many of them carry enough ammo to start a small war. I think 3/4 of the restricted places in the concealed carry law should be removed. I urge you to write your Senator & Representative about this matter. Also send letters to Sen. Phil Journey & Rep. Candy Ruff. They crafted the current law. Thank you, Lynn

ConcernedCynic 7 years ago

I think you are interpreting my comments as a disapproval of the CC on campuses. I really could care less if KU allows CC or not. However, I do think that people that CC are fearful, if not paranoid. I am not trying to be mean or stereotype anyone, but as I (and you) have said, if you are that afraid just avoid those places that don't allow you to carry a gun.On a different note, I have heard the slippery slope NRA argument as well, and to be honest, I do not see that happening. I enjoy hunting and at no time in my life have I had the irrational thought that the government was going to take my gun away. I believe in the 2nd amendment and I am thankful that our forefathers had the prescience to allow citizens to arm themselves with muzzle-loading smoothbore muskets and flintlocks (i.e. not automatic 500 rnds/second rifles). Sarcasm aside, I think it is about time that moderate, middle of the road individuals started speaking up instead of letting the right and left wing conspiracy theorist garnish the majority of the attention. With that said I will probably just lurk agian for a long time until I forget my login name and continue to watch O'Reilly and Olbermann whine about each other.

Christopher Gentleman 7 years ago

I would like to point out that no one seems to have an issue with 18 year olds who join the military carrying weapons? I personally believe that with the proper training anyone who desires to carry a weapon should be allowed.That being said, obviously the only people who are going to go through the process to get a Concealed Weapons license are the law abiding citizens. The ones who want to break the law, carry illegal firearms aren't going to be stopped by a sign that says "no guns" if anything it reminds them that they are the only armed person in that room.For the record, I do have a CCW and I do carry. In acordance with local, state, and federal laws.By the way Oldshooter, I could not agree more.

RedwoodCoast 7 years ago

The United States of America: The only country on the planet that advocates the proliferation of firearms.

Bruce Bertsch 7 years ago

Shatt wants facts...Ask the police in NYC how and when the murder rates went down. New York has had concealed carry for a long time, but the rates went down when the Brady Bill was passed and enforced. Why did crime go down, especially gun crime? Because you had a waiting period that meant that folks from Virginia and Florida couldn't buy multiple weapons on the spot and then import them into the city. Bottom line...fewer guns, fewer gun crimes. Interestingly, murder rates spiked up when Congress gutted the Brady Act. And just so we're clear, in what state did the killer at VaTech purchase his weapon with virtually no background check; thats right, our old friend Virginia. No one should be surprised.At the end of the day, as an employee of the University of Kansas, I would feel not one iota safer with students carrying weapons. In fact, the opposite would be true.

fr8dog 7 years ago

Empty Holsters = EMPTY GESTURES I prefer teeth in my gestures. So when I was a college student, the holster I wore to class was NOT empty. Had it been, I'd likely not be writing this today. The fact I was armed saved my life one night on my way to class. So I advise students who feel safer being armed, to IGNOR both State and University regulations and carry concealed weapons. I still do despite living in a State refusing to grant CCW permits. Remember: "When SECONDS count, police are only MINUTES away".

RedwoodCoast 7 years ago

I wonder how difficult bulletproof vests are to find.

fr8dog 7 years ago

beobachter at 7:41 PM writes........ "fr8dog, Care to provide proof and Police reports to back that up."Specifically; What "proof" & "Police report" are you referring to?

sfjayhawk 7 years ago

I bet this guy Eric Stein gets lots of dates. Talk about mega dorks - this guy might top the list.

Jim Phillips 7 years ago

"moderationman (Anonymous) says: Shatt wants facts:Ask the police in NYC how and when the murder rates went down. New York has had concealed carry for a long time, but the rates went down when the Brady Bill was passed and enforced."I would just love to see the stats you have on that, particularly since they contradict the FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR). Truth of the matter is, violent crimes were reduced significantly after gun legislation was passed in Kennesaw, Georgia. The violent crime rate dropped 68% after a resolution was passed that required the possession of firearms and ammunition, with certain exceptions allowed, by the head of every household. That resolution was passed immediately following the banning of all firearms in Morton Grove, Illinois where the violent crime rate rose 68%. And before you ask, the stats can be verified by the FBI UCR.

vpete69 7 years ago

I love the ignorance of the left in this thread, and their inability to provide fact.And Shatt...I bet Jesus' tomb is posted.

compmd 7 years ago

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/22/chicago.violence.ap/index.htmlNote that handguns are banned in Chicago, and ammunition cannot be sold to anyone in Cook County, the county Chicago is in.

fr8dog 7 years ago

beobachter:I have no intention of providing you or anyone else "proof" I shot someone while carrying a gun without a CCW permit: a felony in my state, with a mandatory year in prison. No, I did NOT wait for police to file a report. The shooting remains unsolved. This is one reason gun use in self defense is Underreported.. And it's not just criminal penalties that put people like me at risk. Even if found innocent by reason of self defense, there's a high probability of financially ruinous civil penalties which are much easier to obtain. As to whether you believe any of this; I don't give a rats' a** what you believe. Your beliefs, opinions, goals, who you are, and everything else about you is of Total Disinterest to me.

nobody1793 7 years ago

Guns are not the answer. Samuari swords are the answer. But first I must wiggle...my...big...toe...

fr8dog 7 years ago

moderationman states in his post of 7:12 PM::"New York has had concealed carry for a long time, but the rates went down when the Brady Bill was passed and enforced."As a former resident of NYC I can tell you you're either a Liar or an Idiot.Fact: The Sullivan Law, which has existed in NYC for over 100 years, insures it's virtually Impossible to get a CCW permit.. And I Defy you or Anyone to prove otherwise. Therefore, since what you say is a Lie, the rest of your post is BULL SH1T.Fact: In 20 years since 40 of 50 States enacted CCW Shall Issue Laws, murder and violant crime has Decreased in these States. The reason it also Decreased in NYC, had Nothing to do with the Brady Bill. It was due to Vigorous law enforcement by then Mayor Julianni. These are Facts taken from the DOJ and NCIC data. Dont believe it? Check for yourslf and then STFU.

booyalab 7 years ago

To the first poster, you're right....guns aren't a fashion statement. So since you obviously know nothing about the process or training required to legally carry one, let me assure you, you can't buy them at Hot Topic or Urban Outfitters.

BlackVelvet 7 years ago

What does it say about our society where opposing sides to an issue cannot debate or discuss that issue w/o calling each other names or belitting each other. Everyone, grow up please. If you disagree, say you disagree. You are showing your immaturity if you must resort to name calling and similar behavior. Life is too short for that type of thing.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

nobody1793 says: Guns are not the answer. Samuari swords are the answer. But first I must wiggle:my:big:toe:---...in the _ wagon?~)...white's wild west works within wisogenistic ways...Parts of the world are upside down.Kill Bill, in any case.

Gina Bailey-Carbaugh 7 years ago

No guns - no killing, no war, no maiming, no massacres....I think you get my point.I don't own a gun and never will. ever.

fr8dog 7 years ago

beobachter: now acknowledges in his poat of 9:20 PM the possibility I may be telling the truth re: using a gun in self defense: (as if I give a rats' a** what he thinks). But then he refers to me with sarcasm as a "hero". No you idiot. It doesn't make me a "hero". It only makes me Alive to tell about it. And as to his assertion Im a "criminal": Yes; he finally got 1 thing right. I am Proud to admit Im a "criminal". . And Im alive today Because Im a so called "criminal". Get It? No. Didn't think so. Libs Never do. LMAO

fr8dog 7 years ago

Gian.....Yes Gina. We Get it. And while you're at it; besides guns war and all violence, how about eliminating hunger, poverty, disease, and SPAM. email, Well, perhaps the last suggestion too much to ask for And of course you have a Practical plan to implement all this. Do inform the rest of us unenlightened ones of your great wisdom.

Paul Decelles 7 years ago

Guns at school? Why to quote a certain Terry Pratchett novel-"They're educational".

fr8dog 7 years ago

Shatt,Re: "You cannot be sued civilly, nor prosecuted criminally".That may be true IF I lived in Kansas. Unfortunately I now live in the (PRC): The Peoples Republik of California, and formerly lived in NYC. I both places, otherwise lawfull use of guns in self defense is often prosecuted both in criminal and civil court. It's the sad condition where Liberals are in controll. But Im planning my escape from the PRC to the Nevada Free State.

DaREEKKU 7 years ago

People can't even turn their CELL PHONES off in class, do you honestly think they are intelligent enough to carry a GUN safely to class? "Ooops, my bad....that was my semi-automatic. Did I hit anybody? Does that mean we can get out of class early?"

fr8dog 7 years ago

DaREEKKU:Yes; YOU should not be allowed anywhere near a gun:.Add to that, sharp instruments, automobiles or any other dangerous items you might harm yourself or others with. You are an accident waiting to happen. As for the Rest of us, safety regarding items we operate depends on our training. But there are those, such as yourself, who are unsafe regardelss of training.

fr8dog 7 years ago

Shatt.Re: Gina. Why is the country wasting time debating the dubious merits of Shrillery, Barak Obaminable or John McCain, when we're blessed with Gina who can solve all the worlds problems. I nominate her as a write in candidate. LMAO

Woodpiggie 7 years ago

There is no rational, statistically based argument to support safety enhancement on college campuses by means of gun free campus policies. During my undergrad and graduate career at an eastern university a generation ago,it was not uncommon for students to keep a pistol,rifle or shotgun in a frat or sorority house or dorm room or car, for recreational shooting or hunting. There was even an ROTC indoor range on campus. Concealed cary wasn't an issue since campus shootings were rare enough to be below the radar screen of concerns. But regretably,today things are different. Putative causes for the episodes of mass murder/suicides of recent years fill volumes, but no objective evidence serves as a basis to impune guns or the screened and trained people who legally cary conceiled through most of the country. Conceiled cary laws usually coincide with low rates of violent crime. This is nowhere better exemplified than in Israel where armed staff in schools raise no eyebrows. Also, teachers and group leaders there are required to be armed on field trips, often carying military assualt weapons. They have their terrorist concerns, but if they have any home grown homicidal nut cases like we do, these people seem to know better than to try and pull off a classroom massacre. I don't think it has ever happened there. What would the effect be here? The few colleges and universities that permit this have had no problems, while zero gun policies have proven to be no obsticle to killers. Isn't insanity defined as an action that brings about an undesirable result, being repeated over and over again, and expecting a different outcome each time. Perhaps neither guns or gun regulation should be in the hands of the insane.

Aaron_C 7 years ago

All SCCC is saying is that people who have permits to carry concealed guns should be allowed to......wait for it......carry concealed guns. It really isn't that weird. Isn't that why the permit exists?And oh yeah, in case anyone's still curious, the police actually aren't responsible for protecting you."...a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen."-- Warren v. District of Columbia"...in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of New York which now denies all responsibility to her."-- dissenting opinion, Riss v. City of New York"Neither a public entity or a public employee [may be sued] for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals."-- CA Gov't Code s. 821, 845, 846"A State's failure to protect an individual against private violence generally does not constitute a violation of the Due Process Clause, because the Clause imposes no duty on the State to provide members of the general public with adequate protective services."-- DeShaney v. Winnebago Dep't of Social ServicesAlthough the Court ruled that the police had no constitutional duty to protect people from crime, it held that in this case a special relationship existed between the plaintiff and the police because of their knowledge of her complaints and the restraining order.-- Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Dep't (can't find transcripts)"The constitution is a charter of negative liberties; it tells the state to let the people alone; it does not require the federal government or the states to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order."-- Bowers v. Devito"Police officers have no affirmative statutory duty to do anything."-- Souza v. City of Antioch, CA

warthog 7 years ago

So, to my original post I'm told:"The_Voice_of_Reason (Anonymous) says: Guns are NOT designed to kill people, their designed for hunting and self defense warthog, it's their misuse that makes them dangerous. Remember the second amendment is there to protect the first one. And P.S I don't have a carry permit nor do I own a gun, but it's every Americans right to have and carry one if they so chose."Someone already pointed out the folly of thinking that guns are not designed to kill. That is their purpose. Misuse? Guns are one of the few "tools" that if used properly, kills. If it doesn't, then you must have done something wrong.Somehow I get the impression that the reason students want to carry guns is so that they can be a hero... save themselves... save others... Very noble. Keep in mind, the gunman you want to protect yourself against, has a plan in mind. He's thought out what he's doing, right down to killing himself at the end of it all. While you're messing your pants wondering if you can shoot him... just like you do in those cool video games, he's killing others, and very likely you, if he sees you going for a gun.So the legal age is 21. How many 21 year old students do you think are responsible enough to carry a gun? Regardless of age, I don't know many people that I think are ready for the time when they may have to use it, and use it properly.And, why would someone assume I am anti-gun, just because I don't think students aren't mature enough to carry guns. Hunting is a great sport, if you like that kind of thing. Protect your home with a gun, if you think that's necessary. Putting even that aside, KU has the right and, in my view, the responsibility to ban guns on campus.

jafs 7 years ago

There were obvious indications that the VT student was very likely to commit exactly such a crime.He was diagnosed with mental illness.His writings were full of violent fantasies.The night before the shooting, he showed his family the gun!?!?How smart do you have to be to figure that something is likely to happen?I can't understand at all why his family didn't do something.Would paying attention to things like this completely eliminate violence in the world? Of course not, but it could certainly reduce it.And, if we also worked on the bullying in schools, and the ridiculing of those who don't fit into the mainstream, we could make even more progress.Until we do that, or things like that, we will continue to have school shootings and students who want to take guns with them to school.

gogoplata 7 years ago

Gina. The gun was invented around 1250 AD. Before that time there was killing, wars, maiming, and massacres.

gphawk89 7 years ago

"Not one THING will STOP crazies from bringing guns to campus. I think the point is that knowing legal concealed carry permit holders are in your midst could perhaps DETER crazies from bringing guns to campus."I'm not so sure that knowing a campus allows CCW would deter the crazies. Many of these incidents end up with the crazy taking his own life - the shooter wanting to "go out in a blaze of glory". If he knows he's going to die anyway, will the chance of being killed by a CCW holder deter him that much? It might actually embolden him, encouraging him to take out as many people as possible before someone takes him out. You never know what's going on in the minds of these people.

geekin_topekan 7 years ago

I once saw a decorated veteran pull a legal gun on someone,presumably for protection.He was disarmed by his appointed target and shot behind his right ear and the bullet exited just above his left molar.He lived long enough to stagger around and shoot wildly,again presumably to end the attack which had ended anyway.Who knows where the strays landed?After the air cleared and the birds started chirping again he lay dead.Killed with his own concealed and legal gun.It must have given him a sense of power or righteous indignation.Which ever the case may be he is dead.This was not a robbery or dispute of any kind.At least it hadnt started as suchHe put himself in a hostile situation and his gun gave him a false sense of security or a false set of testicles.Either way, he lost.CC wont make you right and will give a set of false testicles.Seen it happen,those are the facts.Go buy a bullet proof vest,if you insist on living in fear,and,quit watching so much TV.The irony?His car had nra stickers and one that read "When guns are outlawed,only outlaws will be armed".Avoidable and pointless death can be prevented.

fr8dog 7 years ago

Warthog asks in his post of 6:22 AM:..... "How many 21 year olds are responsible enough to carry a gun?"Answer: Depends on the 21 year old. I was given my first gun at 8, as were many of my friends. We carried guns to school by the time we were 13 or 14; as most schools back in the bad old "politically incorrect days" had rifle teams. And there were NO shootings. What a surprise. But since most States have chosen 21 as the appropriate age for CCW permits, then the answer is: Anyone of legal age who wants one and successfully completes the training and testing required for a CCW permit should have one. Age requirements also apply to other permits such driving a car or flying an aircraft. Although I should point out these permits are Privileges. Carrying a gun is a Right. BIG Difference. Obviously some people will Never be mature enough to carry a gun or control other potentially dangerous equipment. But an appropriate age Must be established. If you're uncomfortable with 21, what age do you propose? Note: As a 21 year old Naval Officer I operated a jet aircraft capable Massive destruction. So if the thought relatively young people having access to highly destructive weapons, ranging from an M16 to an F18, makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you'd feel more secure without a military. Or how about raising the enlistment age to 30? Why not 60? Now there's a "mature" age. LOL

fr8dog 7 years ago

duplenty posts at 9:30 AM: "That may be true IF I lived in Kansas. Unfortunately I now live in the (PRC): The Peoples Republik of California, and formerly lived in NYC. Nothing to do out west?"And before NYC, I lived and attended school in: Guess Where? Hint: It's east of CO, west of MO. Figure it out. But the real question is what relevance does you question have regarding articles published Nationally? People frequently respond to articles in other States and other countries. So what is your point? Do you even have one? LOL

fr8dog 7 years ago

duplenty:Speaking of refunds you recommend from institutions of "higher learning", I suggest YOU get one from what ever university YOU claim to attend, as you obviously never learned how to read constructively. I NEVER stated I attended a "University" in Kansas. I only said I attended "school" there. Learn how to read dummy. But as to the question of why I respond to a local issue. You're obviously unaware that it was picked up by various National news media and eventually found it way to the NRA web site where I read it. Yes, I'm an NRA member. Doesn't that just frost you're a. But the fact you seem upset that "outsiders" respond to what you view as local issue: well, as you say; who gives a FK. So here's a suggestion kid. Go back to sleep or back to class, which apparently is where you get most of your sleep anyway. LMAO

remember_username 7 years ago

First I'd like to apologize if any of the follow questions were answered in the above posts, but I haven't the time to read so many. In addition, I'll assume that those wishing to carry a concealed weapon do so for self protection. 1. Does a person who has taken the CC class have to undergo annual testing to maintain licensing? How about continuing ed requirements?2. If authorized on one caliber and type (revolver, auto, etc.), is the permit applicable to all concealed firearms?3. Is the 8 hour course and range training comparable to what we require our law enforcement officers to undergo?4. If a permit holder using a concealed weapon in defense of themselves or another resulting in injury or death of non perpetrator is the permit holder protected from civil or criminal action?We expect our law enforcement personnel to be trained to respond appropriately to threats. What would you say to convince others to be comfortable on a campus with armed citizens who have had any less training than those we train and employ to protect us?

kansas778 7 years ago

Gina (Gina Bailey-Carbaugh) says: I don't own a gun and never will. ever.******I wonder how Gina would feel about her neighbor putting up a sign that says they own a gun, but their neighbor Gina doesn't and never, ever will.

fr8dog 7 years ago

duplenty1 Re: "Parsing" Yea kid. I know what it is. You English majors are good at it. You know what "Reasoning" and "Logical Thinking" is? It's what us Engineering majors are Better at. LOL.2 Re: You're a**: The only interest I have in it is the Ease in which I'm able to kick it. You make it sooo easy. You're so easy to bait::.More LOL3 Re: My busy day: Actually I work a 2 week on / 2 week off schedule. Im now home and off for 2 weeks. So I have Lots of free time to kick the collective hind quarters of Liberal college kids like you. You make it too easy for us. No challenge. (see note # 1). As former British Conservative Prime Minister Churchill once said. "If you're Under 30 and a Conservative, you have no heart. If you're Over 30 and a Liberal, you have No Brain." You're All Heart kid. So face it: In the battle of wits, you're completely Disarmed. Bye Bye. Have a nice life. Now go back to sleep.

kusp8 7 years ago

Just throwing this out there...Everybody can agree that the statistical likelihood that a shooting will happen on KU's campus is INCREDIBLY small.Everybody can agree that VT, NIU, Columbine, etc., all had those same statistical likelihoods.Everybody can agree that the number of students at KU ALLOWED TO APPLY for a CC permit (21+, etc.) is not a very large percentage of the student body.(Assuming only ROTCs were allowed to have CC on campus) Everybody can agree that ROTC students aren't in every classroom, let alone building, or area of campus during the day.Everybody can agree that statistically crime goes down where CC is allowed.I'm not trying to advocate for either position as I haven't thoroughly looked at CC and gun control in general. However, I am advocating that the discussion be based on facts, not emotion (that's how the Alien and Sedition Acts, Patriot Act, etc., were passed).

jafs 7 years ago

Having lived in the Lawrence area for over ten years, I fear a majority of students should not be trusted with guns.This is based on my experiences with students driving, walking, talking on cell phones, throwing beer bottles on the street, etc.Unfortunately a huge number of students seem completely out of touch with basic reality, and lacking in responsibilty - imagine those folks having guns as well?!

sfjayhawk 7 years ago

Eric Stein - welcome to dork-town, population - YOU

Flash62 7 years ago

Remember; Your best option for learning these answers are at the Kansas Attorney General's web site but here goes....1. Does a person who has taken the CC class have to undergo annual testing to maintain licensing? How about continuing ed requirements? The license is good for 4 years. At this point I don't think anyone truly knows what we'll have to do to renew. I personally would like at minimum a refresher class that covers the applicable laws so any changes would be covered. 2. If authorized on one caliber and type (revolver, auto, etc.), is the permit applicable to all concealed firearms? A licensee is not restricted to any particular caliber or type though I seem to remember something about .50 not being allowed though I couldn't find anything on that on a quick search. 3. Is the 8 hour course and range training comparable to what we require our law enforcement officers to undergo? I would not attempt to answer this though I personally have visited the range on a weekly basis though lately time constraints have reduced that to a couple times a month (probably more range time than a typical officer). I am personally taking additional defensive shooting classes though I think this should be optional for a CCH holder though I feel it's a good idea. If we put too many requirements in place that cost serious money then only those who can afford it would be able to get a CCH which could limit those of lower income the option of legal self defense.4. If a permit holder using a concealed weapon in defense of themselves or another resulting in injury or death of non perpetrator is the permit holder protected from civil or criminal action? Absolutely not and the CCH holder would most likely get some serious jail time. One of the basic rules of firearms is to "know your target and what's beyond". Many of the anti's seem to think CCH licensee's are acting like police and that is simply not true. We pretty much have to be looking down the barrel of a gun to even think about drawing our firearm. Drawing and NOT firing can result in being charged with brandishing. We expect our law enforcement personnel to be trained to respond appropriately to threats. What would you say to convince others to be comfortable on a campus with armed citizens who have had any less training than those we train and employ to protect us? Polilce officers are trained to handle a much wider range of situations. Where a CCH holder may fire to protect his life or those directly around them, they will likely not hunt down an active shooter (I know I wouldn't though I would do my best to protect those around me), unlike an officer.

RobertMarble 7 years ago

The point isn't "why would some want to carry on campus" but "why not"? Carry laws have proven to have a net positive effect; the statistics have already been well documented. It would be ridiculous to assume it would have a different effect on campus. Campus, town, city, suburb, whatever- makes no difference. If the antis would cease spouting their party line rhetoric and actually consider facts rather than emotion, a reasoned debate could then occur.

Jim Phillips 7 years ago

The Liberals Motto: "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good cause!"

Gina Bailey-Carbaugh 7 years ago

FraidyDog, Excuse me? I must have hit a nerve. However, by looking at your posts, it appears to be quite ease to raise your ire. It's comforting to know that a trigger happy NRA member such as you lives in Cali and not in Kansas. Peace, pup.

Gina Bailey-Carbaugh 7 years ago

Kansas778, what exactly is your point? If my neighbor wants to have a gun in their house, that is their choice. It is my choice to not own one. My son is a Marine, expert in rifle, and if he wants to keep guns in his house, that is his choice. Gees

TopJayhawk 7 years ago

Well said Old Shooter. I too am both an "old shooter" and have worked in a psyc setting for twenty-five yrs. I also am licensed in the business. You are right. It is no more abnormal to carry a gun to protect yourself or others, that it would be for people to expect people to come to the aid of any defensless person who is being mugged. It really is just another double standard by the anti-gun Hand wringing crowd.

TopJayhawk 7 years ago

And as far as getting your life ruined should you defend yourself. That is probably true. But I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

TopJayhawk 7 years ago

I posted this once, but can't find it. If I had a business, or a bar/restaruant Instead of the silly "Gun-free" signs you see, I would post the following.-All CCP holders AND their weapons are welcome here. To all robbers muggers thuggers and thieves, it is up to YOU to figure out who and where they are. If you post this sign, you will never get robbed. And that sizes up the whole issue in a nut shell. If you can't understand this concept, then you need someone to tell you to come in out of the rain.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

geekin_topekan says:Avoidable and pointless death can be prevented.---Avoidable...Sure...by definition...but it does require a brain (remain) in your head.Pointless?...NO WAY!---What happened after the incident, geek? Anybody go to jail? What's your point beyond -Idiots exist. Idiots kill. Idiots die.-? ...which could just as easily lead one towards, rather than away from, carrying CONCEALED.

TopJayhawk 7 years ago

The Topeka PD is good at excessive force? At least our cops aren't afraid to go into bars, or certain parts of town after dark like the LPD!!!

jafs 7 years ago

The point was that if he hadn't had the gun, he probably wouldn't have put himself in that situation and gotten killed.

budwhysir 7 years ago

Yep thats what we need, 60,000 students celebrating the championship win, all of them with permits to have firearms. this would be the safest world possible the way I see it

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

We don't really know the situation, jafs.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

Oh NO! With close to five million new guns in the US every year, we may run out of people soon!

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/ihavearightto/four_b/casestudy_art29.shtml"The United States has the largest number of guns in private hands of any country in the world with 60 million people owning a combined arsenal of over 200 million firearms."Where are all of the dead?~)http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-02.htm'Bring out your dead!"

TopJayhawk 7 years ago

You are right again "Old Shooter." I posted this once, but my post disappeared. Those statistics about gun safety that people like to talk about includes in their children and guns stats include gang violence those killed commiting a crime by citizens and law enforcement. It also includes suicides, and yes accidentall shootings. But they try to make it sound like all are tragic accidents, when in reality nothing could be farther from the truth.

budwhysir 7 years ago

shatt:My planet of origin is not the concern here, it is our safety. The number I reference is a published number however it probably does not appear in the information you read. I shall collect my data and get back to you with links to the research that I collect. Thanks Have a great day folks. and remember, life is fun but never fair

budwhysir 7 years ago

Shatt:would you agree that the most effective part of crime is crime itself? In todays world do gangs still have a turf? I thought with all the cool cars they are now mobil.armed robbery requires both arms or it would be a strong arm robber,.Im sure you have not blessed us with all of your facts. Not sure how that works, you owning my face and all but it does sound kind of strange

vpete69 7 years ago

its_getting_warmer:why are you getting upset? shatt posted facts and you start insulting him. You post about 40 kids being killed in Chicago. He responds by saying that Chicago has a gun ban, and if gun bans worked then those 40 kids wouldn't be dead. The Chicago gun ban is NOT an emotion or fantasy belief that Shatt has. Its fact. What do you not believe about it? Why is it so hard for you to just accept the fact that EVERY statistic proves that your beliefs are wrong. How about instead of insulting him, you try and bring some evidence in to support your fantasy? It is known by everyone here that shatt is dropping elbows on you, and complete mangling and dismantling your arguments with every tap on his keyboard. The best comeback you have to shatt's argument is: "The Shatt venerate intermediary spirits, magic and charms. Each Shatt family or clan have own totem e.g. crocodile, hippo, certain snakes although they believe that there is super being God who resides in the sky."What? You would have been better off just telling him to "Shut Up!" I think its about time your mom restricts your internet time. Downgrade.

gogoplata 7 years ago

Guns shoot bullets. Bullets kill people.Bad guys have guns that shoot bullets that kill people.Bad guys also ignore laws that say they can't have guns and can't use guns to kill people.So it makes sense for good guys to have guns to protect themselves against bad guys who have no respect for the law or the lives of the good guys. It really isn't that hard to understand.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

its_getting_warmer says:jjoo7: Oh I don't know, didn't Chicago loose like 40 school aged kids in the last year:.many to guns.---You're right. You don't know. "like 40 school aged kids"? What does that even mean? We could "like" be talking about "like" a turf war amongst dropout drug dealers or "like" a kindergarten class! We might be talking about poverty and drugs and lousy schools? We could be talking about criminals killing criminals and innocents? Who knows? I just read that the murder rate in Chicago was at a 40 year low last year! This was, of course, in an article about recent (since Aug 21 of 2007) gang warfare in which 21 students have been shot."While the root causes of the violence -- social inequality, poor parenting, gangs and drugs -- are complex, getting guns off the streets would dramatically reduce the death toll, Duncan said."We know the answer and that's why it drives me crazy," he said, calling gun violence a public health epidemic.What we're lacking is political courage."It seems to me that pretending to fix the problem by pretending to fix one manifestation of the problem shows a LACK of political courage by Duncan. that seems to be contagious.It seems from your statements of record that you want "civilians" (who do not become involved in law enforcement or directed to spread democracy by the commander in chief) to be disarmed, so as to keep guns out of the hands of criminals? Is that your desired outcome?BTW, you forgot to call me an idiot. Get right on that!~)

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years ago

Thanks!~) Coming from you, I consider that a compliment.

Devon Kissinger 7 years ago

geekin_topekan: I think that's the second version of that story that you have posted on this site.Found it:10 August 2006 at 2:51 p.m.Suggest removalPermalinkAnonymous usergeekin_topekan (Anonymous) says:I don't know if he had a conceal/carry permit.I don't know if he carried for protection or just carried it.I do know that he had brandished a handgun.He even pointed it at two young boys as a gesture of his dominance.I know now that he was a veteran of the Air Force who lost his flight status after being shot down.Does this give him credential or rights?Doesn't matter now I guess.He's dead.Shot at point blank range by his own gun.Maybe he should have left his gun at home that day.Maybe his death saved many more?Who knows.His family says he would go out and think by himself and he meant no harm to anyone.Funny how his favorite thinking spot was on a ridge right above a homeless bunch of squaters.(sp?).Does carry/conceal mean point it at 12 and 13 year old boys?The events of that day will be forever etched in my mind.His death was totally avoidable.But his gun gave him false courage where there was none otherwise.Words became insults,gestures became fists,life became death.I wish he would have left his gun at home that day.I was 16 at the time.Conceal/carry doesn't mean immortal and righteous.For some it will mean carrying your own death permit.Leave your gun at home.I have seen the evils of conceal/carry with my own eyes.It doesn't sound like it was quite as legal as you portray it to be.

vpete69 7 years ago

Ding! Ding! A decision has been made. The pro-gun argument, led by Shatt, has won on this topic due to lack of evidence presented by the opposing side. Please move on to the next topic.

gogoplata 7 years ago

The right to protect yourself isn't something given to us by the US Government. It is an individual right. I don't want kids being killed by guns either. You don't start outlawing things just because a small minority misuse them. If my kids want to kill themselves with one of my guns they are going to have to work at it and ignore all the warnings that I have issued to them. As an individual I am comfortable with the risk of owning guns and the comfort of knowing they are there if I should need one. I am not telling you to go out and get a gun. Just mind your own business. It would make more sense to outlaw swimming pools. Kids die in swimming pools and they don't serve much of a purpose other than having fun or relaxing. How about outlawing cars, knives, baseball bats, prescription drugs, surgery, alcohol? Lets force all men to take impotence pills so they can't rape anyone. Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens serve an important function. It gives them a chance against bad guys who have guns illegally, and it gives them teeth to fight back against the tyranny of an out of control central government.

vpete69 7 years ago

LOL! I think Shatt got banned... Where did all his posts go? They're gone from all the articles.In memory of him:"Pollutants found in smoke from indoor cooking fires are a major contributing factor to eye and lung diseases in developing countries, causing an estimated 2 million deaths every year."HAHA, grill smoke causes more deaths per year than firearms.

Tom Miller 7 years ago

oldshooter, you are about the only one on here regarding this highly volatile subject that has made a damn bit of sense. I appreciate ANYone who can INTELLIGENTLY present their position on any subject, and yours is quite well presented! Thank you. Well said. And as for YOU logrithmic...once again, you stun me with your apparent inability to live and respond to the world in which we currently live. I find it funny you never really seem to be able to respond to a well-presented side of a debate, such as has been done by oldshooter. No, instead you ignore a factual presentation and focus your inane diatribe on the less able...make me wonder, as you have MANY times in the past, if you just enjoy the role of "provocateur", which, in my most humble opinion you do rather poorly. Please, either connect to the world of today in which we live, educate youself up out of your apparent ignorance, and join the rest of us in the real world, or, please, just hush. Oh, and one more time...the definition of a conservative? A liberal, that's been mugged. 'nuff said.

Oldshooter 7 years ago

For Beobachter - Sorry I'm late getting back on this, but I've been offline for a couple of days. The info on the students keeping Whitman's head down came from a personal conversation with Ray Martinez, now a retired Texas Ranger, but at that time, he was the police officer who went up the tower and actually killed Whitman. I think he also stated this in his memoirs, a book titled, "They Call Me Ranger Ray," which is now out in hardback. Sorry, but I don't know the publisher.

Jim Phillips 7 years ago

Hmmmmm. Let me ponder this a minute, Chicago---strict gun laws---"like" 40 kids dead last week-end-----Kansas-----lax gun laws------"like" 0 kids dead last week-end! How does this happen?

Oldshooter 7 years ago

For It's_Getting_Warmer - Your statistics on "Kids" killed by guns look about right, if you are taking them from somewhere like the Brady Bunch website. While technically accurate, they are completely misleading. For example, it would be wise to define "Children" as used in those statistics first. You will find that yours include Americans up to 21.5 years of age. You will also find that the vast majority of these deaths involved gang members from 15 -21 years old, or teenaged criminals killed in the commission of a crime. These are not what we usually mean by the term "children." The latest statistics on accidental deaths among children under 10 years of age, find that more drown IN BUCKETS annually (WAY more drown in pools and tubs) than get killed accidentally by another child with gun. I refer you to the extraordinarily well researched book "More Guns, Less Crime." The violent crime rate in the US is now lower than it is in the UK or Australia. Scotland and Wales alone, now have about three times the violent crime rate we do in the US. It is important to look at VIOLENT crime stats rather than gun crime alone, because guns are not the primary weapon used in any of these countries to commit violence on others. Knives and bludgeons are much more commonly used everywhere, including here. However, guns carried by citizens are easily used to stop or prevent ALL kinds of violence, not just gun violence (ie, I can use my CC gun to threaten and stop an enraged person with a baseball bat or knife as easily as one with a gun - even with no shots fired and no one hurt). This being true, it is reasonable to expect the effect of CC laws to be seen on all kinds of violence, and it is. The passage of CC laws is significantly correlated with a drop in all kinds of violent crime, beginning the year after passage and continuing to drop at a reduced rate for several years after passage of the laws. There is also a statistically significant correlation, and it is an inverse relationship, between the availbility of guns to the law-abiding public and the rate of violent crime. This relationship is true not only here in the US, but also in other countries where it has been studied (primarily several European countries). It's also important to look at the RATE, rather than numbers, of these crimes, because our populations are very different. Estimates of defensive gun usage range from 1.0 (DOJ) up to about 2.5 (John Lott) MILLION times annually. Reports on defensive uses have to be estimated from surveys, etc., because they are rarely reported unless the gun is fired or someone is shot, and that is uncommon.

Jim Phillips 7 years ago

What parts of town and bars are those TopJayhawk?

compmd 7 years ago

Where did fr8dog go? I was thoroughly entertained watching him admit to crimes in a public forum where identity is well tracked and users are easily located.

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