merrill (Anonymous) says…

Empty housing cost taxpayers money.

Another curb cut on 23rd hmmmmmmm

lesticia (Anonymous) says…

“Members of the development group said the Lawrence market was ready for an apartment complex that is designed specifically for students.”

we DO already have this in lawrence — it's called “the legends”. and isn't 31st & ousdahl where the wetlands “officially” start?

Oracle_of_Rhode (Anonymous) says…

Yeah I'm sure all students will flee the “single family neighborhoods” right around KU for this “resort” (heh) on the city's outskirts with no bus service. Families nearby KU are used to the students, they're part of the deal when you live in a college town and shouldn't be ghettoized.

max1 (Anonymous) says…

A major apartment complex for university students cleared its largest hurdle at City Hall on Tuesday… that would put up to 750 units on the southern side of 31st Street, near Ousdahl Road… “I think this will be an incredibly high-quality project,” Mayor Sue Hack said.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/jan/29…
City Commissioner Sue Hack said. “ ‘Remember the neighborhood that you rode your bike two blocks to get to the grocery store?’
http://www2.ljworld.com/chats/2007/jan/2…
Dan Warner and Sue Hack: People will really enjoy getting to know the folks from PlaceMakers and we are fortunate that a group of this caliber is able to work with us.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/feb/06…
After a nearly a week’s worth of work by a $250,000 team of planning consultants … “It was a night of tremendous vision for the community and showed us some exciting opportunities for the community,” City Commissioner Sue Hack said. “I think we’ll look back 20 or 30 years from now and be glad we did this.”

September 21, 2007
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/sep/21…
The combined Lawrence and Edwards Campus enrollment was 26,342, a decline of 431, though in a press release Edwards Campus leaders said their enrollment was up 12 percent. The university counts the two campuses together for statistical purposes. [Lawrence campus has 451 fewer students)

Sept. 21, 2006
http://www.news.ku.edu/2006/september/21…
There are 26,773 students on the Lawrence [and Edwards] campus

September 23, 2004
http://www.kansan.com/stories/2004/sep/2…
The Lawrence [plus Edwards] campus itself totaled 26,980 students

December 18, 2007
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/dec/18…
Earlier this year, the city of Lawrence cut its 2007 budget because sales tax revenue was lower than projected.

Gee, image that.

chicklet (Anonymous) says…

i remember Jefferson Commons being for students only and THAT didn't work out very well

MCwzMC (Anonymous) says…

I don't understand how these developers (or whoever ultimately shoulders the cost of the project) plan to make a profit from this place.

Maybe if the development is incredibly nice, some of the students will move from the other 1/2 full commercial developments to this place. However, after working at one of these places while in school, I can't help but doubt that there aren't enough “rich kids” to fill all these places up.

The lack of buses will have zero impact on this place. This is a development built for kids with money to blow and nice cars to drive. The only downside, as far as these students are concerned, is the difficulty getting to and from the bars.

Its always a bit sad seeing freshman from from large metro-areas show up to check out apartments like these with their parents (usually one bedrooms). I can't help but think about the complete lack of a true college experience they are missing out on.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

There's already a glut of apartments in this town, and this will just make it that much worse.

But what else can you expect from a commission who have been hired to never say “no” to any development of any kind?

msshaden (Anonymous) says…

Ghettotized? Hmmmm, not going to go there. All I wanted was a decent library.

monkeyhawk (Anonymous) says…

“I think there are a lot of students living in single-family neighborhoods right now who are causing concerns to some people,” City Commissioner Mike Dever said.

Since rental housing is under city control in above mentioned neighborhoods, at least there are only three unrelated individuals per unit to cause those concerns.

Perhaps someone could enlighten us as to how many persons are allowed in a multi-family dwelling? Could there be, say, 10 people allowed in a 2 bedroom? Do they have to be related? Are there even any requirements?

Why did the city only select single-family zoning for their imposition? Why shouldn't apartments and condos be made to conform, register, pay the yearly fee for EACH unit and open their tenants' doors to the city?

Think what a cash cow that would be for the city. Might even pay for a few gallons of “environmentally friendly” fuel for the empty buses.

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says…

““I think there are a lot of students living in single-family neighborhoods right now who are causing concerns to some people,” City Commissioner Mike Dever said.”

–––––––—

I thought Dever was a business guy. Yet he doesn't understand that housing, just like any product, can be segmented.

For the most part, the students in the market for a house in the “single family” neighborhoods around KU and the students in the market for a full-amenity apartment complex are not the same group.

It's like opening a Wal-Mart because you want to capture the Pottery Barn crowd—it makes no sense.

The largest competition for this new complex will be the umpteen other “resort-style” apartment complexes (The Legends, Canyon Creek, Highpointe, Tuckaway, etc) that already exist in Lawrence.

These commissioners are a joke.

MCwzMC (Anonymous) says…

Sounds like Hack is a bit delusional. It's a college student apartment complex not the Taj Mahal. Give me a break.

With the way these places are built, this complex will be a complete dump after 10 years (that may be very generous).

Unlike the dumps around campus where students want to live for the convenience of walking to school and the bars, this place is in the middle of nowhere. Absent growth in the student population, Long-term, this place is destined to join the ever-expanding number of 1/2 vacant apartment complexes dotting south Lawrence.

P.S. If Lawrence or KU hasn't grown in recent years, how can the commission honestly believe that this is a decent idea. Ohh wait, I forgot - paid consultants, damn they're good.

geniusmannumber1 (Anonymous) says…

Okay. If any of you Harvard MBAs just posted anything about “Oh no! Yet another half empty apartment complex!”, you never, ever, ever get to make a post about lack of affordable rental housing in Lawrence ever again. Can we agree?

bastet (Anonymous) says…

That space on 23rd has some of the only green space and trees all along that hideous roadway. So let's bulldoze those down and put up tacky student apartments that will create even more traffic problems.

Brilliant!

blackwalnut (Anonymous) says…

Apartments are overbuilt in Lawrence. Every realtor will tell you so. Every apartment owner is stuck with vacancies in October.

Slums of the future, being created today by the developer-owned commission!

blackwalnut (Anonymous) says…

Who wants to bet that, when they cut the T-bus routes in half, the bus will be certain to run to this apartment complex so its owner can fill it with students?

Someone suspiciously like the mayor, or probably her best friend, claimed in these forums the T-bus was pushed by Doug Compton, to provide transportation for students from his many apartment complexes. Now that rumor has the ring of truth if any one ever did.

monkeyhawk (Anonymous) says…

Yes, when the bus is cut in half, (and not mercifully put to sleep), it will be the west side that will experience the cuts. The west side routes are the emptiest. But, it is interesting that the portion of the city which pays the greatest percentage of taxes will be subsidizing a service that they have no access to.

unite2revolt (Anonymous) says…

Will they allow dogs?

merrill (Anonymous) says…

Ignoring the need for studies to determine a need for any new project is irresponsible and unacceptable. This type of action merely contributes to economic displacement in which the ” real estate/development” anti economic growth machine has to its' credits.

Is this new complex using CEK Insurance?

staff04 (Anonymous) says…

When I considered moving back to Lawrence about 3 1/2 years ago I was told by someone or read somewhere (can't remember the source) that there were 2000 empty rental units in Lawrence.

Has the population seeking housing grown that much?

I thought Lawrence was losing population?

Bowhunter99 (Anonymous) says…

NO staff04… your source was incorrect. there are no 2000 empty rental units in Lawrence.

Stop listening to Merrill and Bozo.. the end of the world is not near and Lawrence indeed must grow.

Students do not want to live on run down old houses. We'll see a slight increase on 'affordable' housing for people willing to live within their means and buy an existing house on a 'charming' neighborhood. The one next to the people complaning about the house next door being a rental.

Win win in my opinion.

max1 (Anonymous) says…

“Has the population seeking housing grown that much?” staff04

The student population has shrunk, and I don't see an increased demand for student housing in the near future. This project is supposedly targeting students, but they can't discriminate against non-students, so it is silly to claim this is a “student apartment complex”.

http://www.wiche.edu/policy/Knocking/198…
Between 1987-88 and 2001-02, Kansas had gone from 27,036 public high school graduates to 29,509.
The number of public high school graduates is expected to be 29,685 in 2017-18
During the early 1990s, underrepresented racial/ethnic groups accounted for approximately 12 percent of all public high school graduates in Kansas. That proportion gradually increased to 14.6 percent by 2001-02 and is projected to nearly double during the projection period, reaching close to 26 percent by 2013-14.

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says…

Presenting….a theatrical short by logicsound04:

“The City and It's Review Process”

Developer: I would like to build….er…..something….at some location in Lawrence. But I may need the area re-zoned.

City: Huh, what now? Zoning?

Developer: Yes, the area I want to build this thing is currently zoned for a differ….

City: Sure, whatever you want. Where do we stamp?

OnlyTheOne (Anonymous) says…

I see references to 23rd St but the article says 31st St. Which is it? And who in the world really thinks Lawrence needs a 750 unit housing project for students?

Fatty_McButterpants (Anonymous) says…

This song should be sung at the beginning of every city council meeting (sung to the tune of “My Country 'tis of Thee): Our council is empty, voting very stupidly, again and again. Put up a Wal-mart here, approve a building there, we have no vision clear of what we are. Put in a roundabout, hope they don't figure out, we haven't got a clue what we should do.

VoiceOfReason (Anonymous) says…

monkeyhawk - have you seen any of the east-side routes, or is there a study you're quoting from? I live in southeast Lawrence (just south of K-10) and an empty bus goes right by my house 4 times per hour every day (or every weekday, at least) wasting my tax money. Don't assume the west is the only side paying overinflated taxes for unused and inefficient social programs. Not many of us in the east are happy about subsidizing a small handful of people…we just don't assume that we're the only ones paying taxes and getting shafted by this city.

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says…

“Students do not want to live on run down old houses. We'll see a slight increase on 'affordable' housing for people willing to live within their means and buy an existing house on a 'charming' neighborhood. The one next to the people complaning about the house next door being a rental.”

––––––––

Bownheader,

Do you think about any of the issues before you post, or do you just search for bozo's and merrill's comments and align yourself to the opposite?

Do you really think that students don't want to live in the houses around the University, or are you just being argumentative? When I was at KU, my entire circle of acquaintances preferred the freedom of having a stand-alone house to the confined existence of a 'luxury apartment' (an oxymoron if there ever was one). Not to mention the fact that rent is about half as much when you're sharing a house as opposed to living in an apartment.

Finally, I want to reiterate that the students in the market for soulless luxury apartments and students in the market for houses are not the same people.

By the way, Lawrence does not “have to grow”. In fact, the last census showed little to no growth in Lawrence. So much for facts, eh?

max1 (Anonymous) says…

Maybe that apartment complex can be zoned for student use only. Naismith Hall is privately owned and I'm pretty sure it is restricted to student housing.
I don't expect this development to impact the Oread Neighborhood, which is ideally located within walking distance of campus and stumbling distance to the downtown bar district, but I do expect it to have a negative effect on the tacky apartment complexes out on west 6th Street.
As the fashionable districts expand on the south end of town, I'm sure the undesirable low-rent districts on west 6th will be hard pressed to find tenants. I'm sure workers at the new Walmart will fill some of those units, but the city commission should make an effort to bring more low income workers into that declining part of town. I suggest they zone a large tract of land near 6th and Wakarusa for a nice poultry farm.

http://www.hispanictips.com/2006/08/20/h…
The Trejo family is among the nearly 10,000 Hispanics who have moved into the city [Wichita] since 2000, according to U.S. Census numbers released last week.
The new U.S. Census numbers are not surprising to school district officials. For the past five years, they have charted the growth. They know which group is rapidly growing: Hispanics. They know what areas the new residents are moving to: those with low rents.

August 8, 2007
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/aug/08…
Wal-Mart wins city approval
Stoner said once construction begins, the approximately 100,000-square-foot store — which is scheduled to include a grocery department — will be open in 10 to 12 months… we hope to move forward as soon as possible,” Stoner said.

October 16, 2007
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/oct/16…
Originally, Lawrence-Douglas County planning commissioners had been scheduled to approve the final development plan and the final plat for the project as part of their September meeting, but developers asked that the item be deferred until October. But recently developers asked for at least another month’s delay… Attempts to reach Stoner on Monday were unsuccessful.

Bowhunter99 (Anonymous) says…

logic,

based on your name calling and lack of common sense, I'd say that you went to KU bit never graduated.

Once again, you and Merrill make baseless assumption based on a small group of people around you, yet claim to speak of behave of the citizens of Lawrence.

Azure_Attitude (Anonymous) says…

DollyPP, it's Cabrini Green, no “s”, and Lawrence has theirs. It's called Edgewood and is townhomes instead of stories of apartments. The need for affordable housing doesn't necessaily mean we need more housing projects.

Or, maybe we do since more and more people are sliding in to poverty in recent times … . Thanks Dub.

Azure_Attitude (Anonymous) says…

Voice, Prairie Park is the end of the route. You will see more riders in between. The bus stops South of Harper and 23trd and East of Harper and 23rd usually have people waiting for the bus there. It not at all unusual for me to see people waiting for the bus at 27th and Harper.

CoAd (Anonymous) says…

Bowhunter99,

I enjoy hearing all sides… especially in opposition but I didn't notice logic call you a name.

CoAd (Anonymous) says…

Nevermind, I see now.

Let's all play nice.

blackwalnut (Anonymous) says…

Anonymous user

staff04 (Anonymous) says…
When I considered moving back to Lawrence about 3 1/2 years ago I was told by someone or read somewhere (can't remember the source) that there were 2000 empty rental units in Lawrence.

I heard something similar from more than one realtor when I was considering investing in rental property in 2004. I was discouraged, based on the oversupply of rental units in town. Unless the city has grown a lot since the, the city cannot support more apartments.

VoiceOfReason (Anonymous) says…

Azure - I certainly won't say that ALL of the buses are ALWAYS empty…I'm not watching them constantly. But I live just down the street from 27th and Harper (“closer in” along the route…ie. people getting on at 27th and Harper would be on the bus by the time they passed my house) and I have never seen a bus go by with more than 2 people on it. It goes by just after 6 am and goes by every half hour, thereafter, until sometime at night (and back the other way twice an hour, as well). While I'm sure, at some point, there have been people on that bus, I have been outside at every time of day…from 6 am until 10 at night, and every time in between, at some point, and I have never seen more than 2 people on board at a time. Our neighborhood, out of concern for numerous area kids around during the summer, even did an informal survey last summer to guage the number of riders to take their cocerns to the city (Harper, south of 25th, is a narrow road for a bus route…the bus routinely has to stop to allow a car coming from the other direction to pass) and we took shifts over 2 weekdays watching the bus go both ways and counted the number of people on board. Over the course of an entire day, there were a total of 14 people on board. I can't remember what time the bus stops running, but it's at least 6 pm (I believe it might be 8, though). For just 12 hours, that's 48 buses going by, with a total ridership in our area of 14 people. The point of our “study” was to show that going deep into certain neighborhoods is not economically feasable or safe.

My point, with my original post, however, was that this isn't an east-west issue. I live in the east and the majority of my neighborhood is not happy about a generally empty bus driving up and down our neighborhood streets. It should run on major thoroughfares, only…27th, 31st, 23rd, etc. If the taxpayers are being asked to foot the bill for a few riders, they should be willing to walk an extra block to catch the bus.

laika (Anonymous) says…

Bowhunter,

I am a current student and I agree with what logic says. I live in a house in the Oread area, as do nearly all my friends. It's great, really convenient, I can ride my bike or walk everywhere. Now I'm not saying all students want to live here, obviously that's not true. But it is surely a fallacy to say that no students want to live in “run down” houses, seeing as it's really convenient and you're surrounded by other students. So it looks like some students, crazy as this might sound, do like to live near downtown.

Also, are you a student? Why do you claim to speak for students and then accuse others of trying to speak for all the citizens of Lawrence? Seems like a double standard.

monkeyhawk (Anonymous) says…

VoiceOfReason -

The reason I surmised that the biggest cuts would come to the west side is because that was the implication in Mr. Galante's presentation to the CC last night. He targeted the area west of Iowa claiming that most were homeowners with two cars and that those routes seemed to be the least used. He also cited the demographic of bus riders and most (if any) did not fall into the same demographic as those west of Iowa.

hawkperchedatriverfront (Anonymous) says…

Oh boy this one is a good one. This new complex will fill up and have individual leases just like Jefferson Commons, then changed hands and became The Reserve and then their is The Legends. By the way, both are in disrepair and some of the “rooms' rented with individual leases now have the locks off the doors because the roomates broke into them so the boyfriends could stay after the 3 roomate broke his/her lease. The there is the gated place on 6th street, Drive thru that complex, the one across from Cadillac Ranch and take a gander at how it is running down, then down the hill to Highpointe. Watch the vacancy rate climb there when the new joint on 31st opens.

I find it interesting that the city continues to talk about this being a place for retirees but there is NO housing for retirees.

Anyone want to list the slum complexes in order and put in order . #1 being the worse , #2, etc/ We can then keep track when each complex comes on line as being next in line to be on the list.

Where does the money come from for the complex to be built on 31st street?

OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…

Considering the location, they should call it Mosquito Bite Townhomes. That swamp is a breeding ground. Ever play a softball game at Broken Arrow in June?

Godot (Anonymous) says…

Are they being offered a tax rebate or TIF? Will they have to pay for their own infrastructure improvements?

black_butterfly (Anonymous) says…

The students will want to move in there when it is “brand new”, but after a year or two it will lose it's newness and luster and start to empty out. Then the owners will register it with the housing authority since they won't be able to fill it up any other way, and it will become another section 8 haven. And life goes on.

justfornow (Anonymous) says…

Are my property tax headen south??

logicsound04 (Anonymous) says…

“Once again, you and Merrill make baseless assumption based on a small group of people around you”

––––—

Actually, I cited my personal experience as the “base” for my opinion. You were the one making unfounded characterizations. Remember this one:

“Students do not want to live on run down old houses.”

That comment assumes, 1) what students (as a group) want or don't want to do, and 2) that all the houses in the neighborhoods surrounding campus are run down.

Perhaps you should re-read your original post before you risk looking like a hypocrite again.

Oh, and while we're on the issue of hypocrisy, I hope you don't consider any of the following to be names:

liberal loonies
left wing nuts
deadbeat stooge

Because if you do, you may want to can the lectures about name calling.

kansas778 (Anonymous) says…

The apartment construction is not because there is greater demand for more units, but because the prices are so high in Lawrence that they want to get in on it, even if they won't have a 100% tenancy. Remember, this is Kansas, not exactly the top real estate market of America, and in the rest of the state apartments are much cheaper. Think about this, while a similar home on the East coast can cost two or three times as much as it would in Lawrence, apartments are only about 20% more expensive. From the few people I know that went to K-State, they tell me that apartments are much cheaper in Manhattan.

So as long as they can get away with charging so much, they will continue to build more apartment complexes in Lawrence.

Bowhunter99 (Anonymous) says…

CoAd,
Do a search for logic's post on this thread. You'll find it.

Laika,
I don't disagree with the fact that some students prefer to live on an older house next to campus. But then again, you can't disagree with the fact that there are also plenty of students that do not.

This article was about a new apartment complex. Someone didn't just got up one morning and say 'Heck, I'll just waste millions of my money and build 800+ apartments just so they're empty'…. Someone saw a need and tried to fill it.

Lawrence needs affordable housing. Students have used up a good majority of it. I see it as a benefit to the community if 800 groups of them decide to move the apartments and help 800 start up families find a good house inside of the community. Is that such a bad thing?

max1 (Anonymous) says…

“help 800 start up families find a good house inside of the community.” -bowhunter99

There are 1045 fewer KU students enrolled on the Lawrence campus now than there were in 2004. How many of those good single-family houses that you cited have been bought up by “start up families” as a result of that decreased enrollment?

cowboy (Anonymous) says…

Many of the students moving in want new apartments and the parents want them in something clean and new , all these little rich kids showing up each year with their 50,000 dollar SUV's want their bowheads in a nice place , that said you'd think there would be enough of these here already.

With KU consistently raising housing costs it only makes sense for the kids to live off campus

max1 (Anonymous) says…

As apartment vacancy rates climb, the money spent maintaining those apartments is likely to decline as well, but as the esteemed geniusmannumber1 suggested — that is a good thing.

Since ethnic minorities have fewer financial resources (Asians excepted), maybe it is a good thing those tacky apartment complexes on west 6th will fall into crack-house conditions, otherwise, due to the cost of housing, KU's enrollment might fall even more than it has recently.
http://www.wiche.edu/Policy/Knocking/198…
Projections of High School Graduates by State, Income, and Race/Ethnicity (December 2003)
Kansas was among the low- to average-growth states in the nation between 1990 and 2000, falling considerably below the national growth rate over that decade… The slow growth trend is projected to end in 2002-03, and the state will see low to moderate annual declines annually from 2003-04 through 2013-14… During the early 1990s, underrepresented racial/ethnic groups accounted for approximately 12 percent of all public high school graduates in Kansas… and is projected to nearly double during the projection period, reaching close to 26 percent by 2013-14.

The prophesies cited above were written in December 2003, and like many other population projections, the numbers might be wildly off base.

June 30, 2000
http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stori…
Kansas will become the fastest growing state in the Midwest during the next 25 years
Demographics Daily is predicting Kansas population will grow 17.3 percent from 1999 to 2025, the fastest rate of any Midwestern state… The study also predicts that Lawrence will lead Kansas cities with a 31.4 percent growth rate.

December 22, 2004
http://www.ljworld.com/section/stateregi…
Kansas population growth among nation's slowest: The state's population grew by just 0.4 percent in the 12 months ended July 1, for only the 42nd-fastest growth rate among the 50 states and District of Columbia.

May 1, 2007
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/may/01…
“I think there are absolutely a lot of questions about the numbers flying around here.” - Mayor Sue Hack