Archive for Friday, June 30, 2006

Concealed gun law raises interest, worry

June 30, 2006

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— While some Kansans are eager to get a license to carry a concealed gun, many businesses are anxious to get signs to prohibit guns on their premises, officials said Thursday.

"When the law passed, we got hundreds and hundreds of calls from people asking, 'When can I get my concealed weapon?'" said Mary Feighny, an assistant attorney general.

Kevin Graham, also an assistant attorney general, said preparing for the law "is definitely a learning and growing experience."

The new law that will allow Kansans to get permits for concealed guns takes effect Saturday. But the first permits won't be issued for six months, on Jan. 1, 2007.

Still, the state is preparing for what is expected to be thousands of people applying for concealed carry licenses.

On Thursday, the State Rules and Regulations Board approved temporary rules to implement the law.

Jeffery Howlett, owner of Kansas Firearms Specialties in Tonganoxie, cleans off a handgun Thursday in his store. A new law, which takes effect Saturday, prohibits weapons in businesses that post signs stating that guns aren't allowed.

Jeffery Howlett, owner of Kansas Firearms Specialties in Tonganoxie, cleans off a handgun Thursday in his store. A new law, which takes effect Saturday, prohibits weapons in businesses that post signs stating that guns aren't allowed.

Among the rules was a lesson plan for an eight-hour course on firearms safety that applicants must take to get a license. The course will include the basics of gun safety, marksmanship and maintenance, as well as the use of deadly force.

And officials said they already were getting a lot of questions from businesses about posting signs to prohibit concealed guns on their properties.

Graham said the state would have regulations on the size of the signs and where they need to be posted by September. Those regulations will be on the attorney general's Web site at www.ksag.org, he said.

The signs will have to be roughly 8 inches by 10 inches and will probably have to be posted at any public entryway, although a final decision hasn't been made, he said.

Under the law, Kansas residents 21 or older with no criminal background or history of mental illness or drug abuse could obtain a four-year permit after completing the eight-hour training course.

There are numerous places where people would not be allowed to carry concealed weapons, such as school buildings, law and government buildings, drinking establishments, colleges, day care centers and religious buildings.

In addition, businesses and property owners could prohibit concealed weapons if they post signs.

Bob Schumm, owner of Buffalo Bob's Smokehouse and Mass Street Deli, said because his downtown Lawrence businesses served alcohol, concealed weapons were prohibited.

But if it becomes obvious that licensees aren't leaving their weapons outside, he said he might have to post signs prohibiting guns.

"I'm concerned about the concealed carry law in general," Schumm said. "I just don't believe that in a civilized society people need guns to protect themselves. There will be accidents and momentary outrages.

"It's a bad deal and a bad day for the state of Kansas," he said.

But Jeff Howlett, owner of Kansas Firearms Specialties in Tonganoxie, said there were numerous safeguards in the law that would prevent licenses from being issued to someone who might be unstable or dangerous.

Howlett said he hoped businesses wouldn't prohibit concealed weapons.

The criminals will be armed, he said, and if a business has a sign prohibiting guns, "what that tells people is that this is an undefended place."


















No guns allowed

The law bans concealed guns: ¢ In any place where there's a public nuisance, such as illegal drugs. ¢ In any law enforcement office. ¢ In prisons, jails and other detention centers. ¢ At courthouses and courtrooms, city halls and buildings, state office buildings. ¢ At polling places on Election Day. ¢ In meetings of the governing bodies of cities, counties and other political subdivisions. ¢ At the Kansas State Fair. ¢ At school- or university-sponsored athletic events not related to firearms. ¢ At professional athletic events not involving firearms. ¢ Inside elementary and secondary schools or at any university, community college or technical college facility. ¢ Any place where firearms are prohibited by federal law. ¢ At centers set up for abuse victims to handle visits to their children by noncustodial parents. ¢ In community mental health centers, mental health clinics or psychiatric hospitals. ¢ In public libraries. ¢ In child care centers or group homes for children. ¢ In places of worship. ¢ In places where property owners put up a "no guns allowed" sign.

Comments

Captainkbt 9 years ago

"I'm concerned about the concealed carry law in general," Schumm said. "I just don't believe that in a civilized society people need guns to protect themselves.

Jeeze where do they get these people? What planet did he just come from?He doesnt read the news? ITS A CIVILIZED SOCIETY, BUT SOME IN IT ARENT SO CIVILIZED! DUH? Some will kill you for the spare change in your pocket and some just for the sport. Hence the need for protection.

Doug Harvey 9 years, 1 month ago

Brilliant, Kansas. Now you can play John Wayne to your heart's content. We'll see what the stats say about gun-related deaths in a couple of years -- that is if the Republicans don't redefine "gun-related" to anything coming from a howitzer or larger.

Devon Kissinger 9 years, 1 month ago

As a Concealed Carry Permit holder, individuals will have met all training requirements including instruction in Federal and State laws and firearms safety, and will have passed the state's proficiency tests. They will have passed a thorough background check and been approved by the Sheriff.

As a gun owner they will have again passed a background check by the FBI and : not under indictment and have never been convicted of a felony, not a fugitive from justice, never been adjudicated mentally defective, never been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces, not subject to a restraining order, never been convicted of misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence, never renounced their citizenship, not an illegal alien.

Personally I would prefer to be in the company of thse kind of folks all day long than with folks I have no idea about. You post a sign at the door that says no guns allowed, I take my business elsewhere. Simple. There are plenty of progun folks out there to do business with.

rayikeo 9 years, 1 month ago

Don't worry! This gun law has been very effective in 45 other states with no problems for many years. Kansas is one of the last states to join. Time has shown this to work with a decrese in crime, not an increse.

DaREEKKU 9 years, 1 month ago

Colt45, good, go somewhere else. I'm going to advocate that the business I work for put one of those signs up. There are simply some places that you don't need to be carrying guns into, even WITH a concealed weapons law.

conservativepunker 9 years, 1 month ago

Aaaaaaah! The Sky Is Falling! The Sky Is Falling! Jeez. Funny how somw folks know exactly whats going to happen before it does. There aren't going to be gunfights a la "John Wayne".......I'd be more worried about the Topeka and KC gangbangers carrying in The Granada and elsewhere. The folks that have concealed permits are going to obey the rules. That's why Sheriff's departments are conducting background checks. Those permits aren't going to be handed out willy-nilly. The people that have permits aren't going to do anything to jeopardize themselves. I would worry more about those that carry without permits illegally. (Yo, don't get up in my grill bitch!)....hint hint

bondmen 9 years, 1 month ago

If you fear or hate inanimate objects - like guns - and begrudge others the right who choose to defend themselves from criminals when no police are around, and if you are upset at the thought a law abiding citizen might carry a concealed gun for protection, then I have a suggestion which may cause you to think.

Show the courage of your convictions by placing a readable sign in your front yard that says something like: "This House is Unarmed - Absolutely No Guns Allowed Here!"

Any change in thinking? Now either put it up or shut it up!

Todd 9 years, 1 month ago

"I just don't believe that in a civilized society people need guns to protect themselves."

Well, I just don't believe in a civilized society important issues should be decided solely by the randomly outspoken. We have elected officials and the whole concealed weapons issue was handled on the up-and-up. It took several election cycles to get the votes to override the govener's veto. i.e. the people of the state of Kansas have chosen to allow concealed carry.

As for Lawrence, well, I doubt business owners will loose much business due to signs. Does anyone actually know if you'd be charged with a firearms violation if you carried despite the signs? In other concealed carry states you get charged with trespassing. (if carrying when a business owner has a no-gun sign up)

betti81 9 years, 1 month ago

I fit all of the "criteria" to get a permit. I grew up around guns, shot a shotgun once, and never touched them again. an 8 hour course will NOT prepare me to feel confident about my ability to use or carry a gun. Seriously folks, passing these checks and an 8 hour course that covers a gamet (sp?) of topics will not prepare someone who has had limited/no other firearms training to safely and responsible carry a weapon. There is a lot more that comes with owning and carrying a weapon. The respect, fear and knowledge required to be a responsible gun owner cannot be taught in an 8 hour course.

mom_of_three 9 years, 1 month ago

My husband dislikes guns. We have relatives and friends who own guns for hunting, and he respects that. I don't expect to ever have a gun in my house, which is fine with me.
If I have to post a sign at the door, that's fine.
It will also say "armed baseball bat inside the door, and beware of dog." It wouldn't say which dog, since we have a variety of sizes.

ImpactWinter 9 years, 1 month ago

The choice to carry when lawfully permitted is a complicated issue that has a lot more to it than most of these people who are crying "the streets will run red with the blood of the innocent" seem to grasp. It only takes a few minutes and a search engine to discover that people all across the country have saved themselves, and often others, from harm with the lawful use of civilian force. The police cannot save you, the 2-3 minutes it takes them to arrive in the best of circumstances is all the time in the world to someone who wants to do something terrible to you or your family. Our justice system is squarely devoted to apprehension and punishment, not prevention or deterrence. I think that a civilians right to defend himself against unlawful acts is something that we all should feel responsible for.

This sheepish attitude that somehow "society" has evolved beyond the occaisional need for lawful force is naive, and completely at odds with everything we see in the world around us.

the vast majority of other states in our Union have ratified this law, or another similar; society has not self-destructed.

I'm a strongly liberal man, and I feel safer knowing that responsible citizens trained by certified instructors and vetted by law enforcement might be nearby if something bad were to happen to me, or my family. In the uncertain world we live in, I think that I would rather trust my safety to the hands of my civic minded neighbors, than to any clumsy flailings of our government system.

I, for one will certainly seek my permit.

concerned_citizen 9 years, 1 month ago

Haha...NOT eating at BBs or Mass Street Deli IS a form of self-defense.

It's funny how something so innocuous as the possibility of someone vetted by several law enforcement agencies carrying a firearm gets some of y'all shivering like a chihuahua, but the fact that felons and violent sex offenders stroll downtown doesn't merit comment (unless you encourage their panhandling).

I found this odd: you can't carry... ¢ In any place where there's a public nuisance, such as illegal drugs

Isn't that kind of where you are MOST likely to need your piece?

Christine Pennewell Davis 9 years, 1 month ago

mom of three a big dog that thinks it is a lap dog and a small one that is the killer dog? Not making fun just in so many cases it seems to have been just like that I have a huge dog I mean huge and she thinks she is a lap dog. If she ever managed to sit on mean I would be crushed. My mom on the other hand had,rip, a small dog and that thing would rip you to pieces given the choice so all beware small or big mostly small will get you. Now as for this issue. to many what ifs on all sides so I really do not see a clear 100% agreement on this no matter what people will always argue for and against. So good luck in this blog but I do not think I am going to stick around unless some one write useless drivel like me.

Just have a nice day and stay inside.

nonimbyks 9 years, 1 month ago

I feel safer already. Someday maybe i'll own my own hand gun. After I move out of Lawrence. Can anyone predict how long it will take the city council to ban gun carrying=ownership in Lawrence? How many feet do I have to be away from the bars, schools, community & public buildings? I can't wait to see the laws on this go through the roof at city hall.

mom_of_three 9 years, 1 month ago

momma effort - you are entirely correct on the subject of dogs. I do like to think that the big dog would come to my defense if I was actually threatened and scared. The smaller one barks to alert us of anything or anyone coming to any door of the house. And I was trying to make light of the issue anyway, so no worries.

You also make a good point about the what-if's on the issue. There will never be a 100% agreement about the conceal/carry law. Just because it has worked out in the other states doesn't guarantee it will work out for the best here. We know we are a little different here in the middle square state. I hope it does work out, because I don't want to be the innocent bystander shot by a well-meaning citizen during a robbery at the quik shop.

ImpactWinter 9 years, 1 month ago

they cannot pass laws that override state laws, the KS ccw law will be the final judge on the particulars

nonimbyks 9 years, 1 month ago

sure they can't but there is already the law about no guns within xxx feet of bars in town, then there are schools etc so where does it stop...

"The city did pass an ordinance shortly following the shooting that makes it illegal to possess a firearm or weapon within 200 feet of any drinking establishment." http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/may...

ImpactWinter 9 years, 1 month ago

that law is superceded by the passage of the Concealed Carry Law, its provisions on perimeters and prohibited buildings are the only enforceable laws with regard to where/when you could carry (legally)

nonimbyks 9 years, 1 month ago

and now i know.

I have been enlightened.

Kelly Powell 9 years, 1 month ago

I have guns, but if I have to reach for a weapon at home(investigating the noise my dog is going crazy over) my first choice is my machete....I love that word, say it with me people MA....CHE....TEEE...... I think more people should walk around with cutlasses or other manly edged weapons.....Not as much chance of collateral damage and since it is a lot more personal way to kill someone, people won't be nearly as tempted to use them.

LawrenceLawrence 9 years, 1 month ago

I will be getting my concealed carry license as soon as possible. I ordered holsters for my pistols the day I read about the veto. Every pistol I purchase in the future will be purchased with a matching holster. Will I carry? Probably not, but I want to be able to exercise this freedom if I feel the need. Actually, I take that back---I will exercise this freedom when I travel to Topeka, Kansas City, or Wichita.

I own several firearms and know many Lawrence residents who legally own firearms. The culture of every legal firearm owner I know is one of safety and responsibility. I never touch a gun I'm not familiar with unless the guns owner gives me a rundown of functionality. I always check every firearm I pick up to determine if it is loaded---even if the owner assures me it is not loaded or if I know I was the last person to handle the weapon. I keep my firearms out of sight. All are stored unloaded (although my main pistol is stored with a loaded clip nearby). I make sure that adults in my household know where guns are stored. When children enter my home or parties are being held on the premises I check to make sure all weapons are secured in a locked closet. When I leave for a trip I also secure all weapons in a locked closet. When I have children of my own I will purchase gun safes. My safety conscious practices are not uncommon among a legal firearm owners.

The people we really need to be scared of are the thugs and criminals who already carry concealed firearms illegally. They're the problem---not legal citizens who seek out (and pay good money) to obtain a license for concealed carry. Criminals will think twice after January 1st. All of the shootings that have taken place around Lawrence recently are committed by individuals who are carrying guns illegally. It's time for innocent citizens to have the right to protect themselves.

I will be more than happy to avoid establishments that elect to ban legal citizens with concealed carry permits from carrying a firearm on the premises. I feel much safer knowing the room around me is filled with responsible licensed citizens carrying firearms rather than filled with criminals who are carrying illegally.

And for those who predict that Kansas is about to return to the days of the old west... do some research. You're just demonstrating ignorance.

hipper_than_hip 9 years, 1 month ago

Since we have concealed carry now, did the punishment change for unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon?

LawrenceLawrence 9 years, 1 month ago

DaREEKKU: Pease let us know where you work. I'll be happy to not support the business with which you're associated. And also, please expand upon your statement "There are simply some places that you don't need to be carrying guns into, even WITH a concealed weapons law". I'm interested in your hearing your thoughts, especially since I can only assume you mean places in addition to those those described in the Kansas law.

Devon Kissinger 9 years, 1 month ago

I like these quotes.

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper-

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -Dalai Lama-

staff04 9 years, 1 month ago

ruskastud-

"Well, guess I will continue not to go to Buffalo Bob's Smokehouse or Mass Street Deli....."

Don't forget anywhere else in the entire state of Kansas that serves alcohol...

It isn't Schumm that made the law. It will be illegal to carry a concealed weapon in his establishment. You won't go there....why? Because the owner of the establishment doesn't want criminals in his business?

Devon Kissinger 9 years, 1 month ago

I'm still waiting to find out where DaREEKKU works so I can be sure to avoid it.

Christine Pennewell Davis 9 years, 1 month ago

well you know drinking and driving is bad and I do believe drinking ad guns are not good bedfellows but I do not think going in to halmark should require a concealed gun. I know many of shootings in work place and all that but if some one comes in and starts shooting you are already in trouble because you do not have your gun out and I think most people would duck and cover unless they are trained police or milatary . I think in some cases that a conceald weapon is not a bad Idea but not just to have one and say hey guess what I get to carry agun and not get in trouble.

LawrenceLawrence 9 years, 1 month ago

This bill should trump the Lawrence ordinance. We should all look further into this to clarify.

A bar is a drinking establishment. A restaurant that serves alcohol is not.

As currently written, the state law would not allow license holders to carry a concealed weapon in a bar, although they could in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

If anyone knows otherwise please fill us in.

LawrenceLawrence 9 years, 1 month ago

I re-read the bill. Concealed carry is not banned from restaurants.

Here are the exact words from the bill: "Any portion of a drinking establishment, except that this shall not apply to a restaurant."

staff04: Your statement "It will be illegal to carry a concealed weapon in his establishment" is entirely false.

I urge all concerned individuals to check the facts before making assumptions about this bill. Educate yourself before you miseducate others. For your reference, the bill can be viewed at the following URL:

http://www.ksag.org/Concealed%20Weapon/SenateBill418.pdf.pdf

Charles L Bloss Jr 9 years, 1 month ago

Don't carry a gun unless you are mentally and emotionally prepared to kill someone. Damn I like those curly fries piled high to the sky. Although I am a conservative, Bob is a friend of mine. I'll keep going, the ribs are awesome. We had our wedding dinner at the Buffalo's and it was great, too. Wanna know where the buffalo head on the wall came from? Paxico, KS. Thank you, Lynn

LawrenceLawrence 9 years, 1 month ago

Lynn: Your comment about mental and emotional preparedness just changed my entire position on this issue. How could I have overlooked this when I purchased my firearms? I'm selling my guns tomorrow! Thank you so much for enlightening me.


If this was me, I would be mentally and emotionally prepared to defend myself and my family: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/jun/30/runner_reports_seeing_mountain_lion_along_river_le/?city_local

If this was my home I would be mentally and emotionally prepared to defend myself and my family: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2002/jul...

If this was my child I would be mentally and emotionally prepared to defend them: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/jun...

Remember folks. All this stuff happens in our beloved town of Lawrence.

gphawk89 9 years, 1 month ago

LawrenceLawrence - Wow, everything you said in your 12:11 post made WAY too much sense.

It's too bad that the CC law will be basically rendered useless by all the businesses putting up "no guns" signs. If I can't carry a gun into a business (restaurant, grocery store, whatever) I'm probably still going to go to that business (sans gun). And I'm never going to leave my loaded gun in the car while visiting that business (think about it - my car gets stolen, my gun is found and eventually used to commit a murder, and I'm the one that gets hit with a wrongful death lawsuit). So where does that leave my gun? Sitting at home just like it always has.

LawrenceLawrence 9 years, 1 month ago

gphawk89: Thanks for agreeing. Glad to know there are a few like minded people in our beloved little liberal oasis.

I offer you the following thoughts: If you're afraid of leaving a loaded gun in the car, just take the clip into the store with you. A bullet without a gun is not a concealed weapon. And a gun without the clip/bullets is well... non-lethal.

As far as getting a wrongful death lawsuit---that's (in my opinion) a little far fetched. If your locked car is stolen and the thief strikes a pedestrian there's no way you'll get slapped with a wrongful death lawsuit. Maybe if you're dumb enough to leave a car running with the keys in the ignition with a car full of rug rats and they knock it into gear and strike a pedestrian. Yeah: Then I can see some repercussions.

Likewise, if you leave a loaded weapon in a car with an open window near a busy playground... Well, if you're that stupid you deserve to be locked away. But if your concealed weapon is stolen from a locked car (or a locked home, or a locked gun safe)---that's a different story because you are able to demontrate that you exercised appropriate safety measures. I would almost be willing to bet my first born child that the type of individual who seeks out to obtain a concealed carry license is not the sort of individual who absent-mindedly leaves a loaded single action gun just lying about with a round chambered and the safety off:

LawrenceLawrence 9 years, 1 month ago

...and as far as the CC bill being rendered useless because of all the businesses putting up "no guns" signs... I'd almost be willing to bet money that 12 months from now very few business owners will have actually taken the time to post such a notice.

theoz1 8 years, 8 months ago

Whats up with the no guns allowed list up there. Why have this law if you wont be able to bring a gun anywhere with you. If your doing an illegal activity than you shouldn't even have a permit. Just pointless to list those down.

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