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Archive for Wednesday, July 19, 2006

World war has already begun

July 19, 2006

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In chronicling the number of armed warriors who joined David at Hebron, there is this exquisite line: "All these men understood the temper of the times and knew the best course for Israel to take." (1 Chronicles 12:32, New Living Translation)

For roughly 4,000 years there has been "unrest" and war in the Middle East. It possibly began when the ancient Israelites drove out the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites. Modern Israel is attempting to drive out Hezbollah-ites, Hamas-ites, Islamic Jihad-ites and the rest.

Nothing has changed, except Israel may be in greater peril today than at any time in its modern history. That is because Israel, often under pressure from its "ally" the United States, has bought into the fiction that says giving Israel's declared enemies the land they demand will cause those enemies to suddenly beat their swords into plowshares and study war no more. The more Israel gives, the more her enemies feel emboldened to take away. It's called appeasement, and it never works.

When Israel pulled out of Gaza, I predicted terrorists would move in and begin firing rockets into Israeli towns. It doesn't take someone with the vision of a biblical prophet to forecast the obvious. The rockets hitting Israel from Lebanon are coming from territory previously occupied by the Israel Defense Forces, which the IDF had entered in response to earlier shelling. Too many, whether in Europe, the worthless U.N., or the U.S. State Department - even many Israelis - do not understand the temper of the times.

Israel's enemies are all of the same piece by whatever name they call themselves. There are no "moderates," at least none who have the power to make peace. The idea of a "two-state solution" with a Palestinian state living alongside Israel was always a pipe dream concocted by secular Westerners. They accept a false doctrine that says the enemies of Israel (and America) can be placated by people they regard as "infidels."

Hezbollah runs a television station in Lebanon. A visit to the Middle East Media Research Institute's Web site (Memritv.org) found a number of interesting clips. Hezbollah Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah says, "We prefer death and martyrdom over American guarantees." Nasrallah survived an Israeli airstrike on his headquarters in southern Lebanon. He declared "all-out war" against Israel.

There's a film for children that speaks of Jews turning into apes and pigs. Lebanese students at a Hezbollah TV symposium say, "we should fight the Jews and burn them like Hitler : Israel should be wiped off the map." The head of "Radio Islam" in Sweden said on Hezbollah TV, "The Muslims' war is with the Jews." In Europe, Islamic influence is growing due to the spinelessness of government leaders.

There is another danger and that is the fantasy that elections will produce leaders within Islamic fanaticism who will be committed to real democracy, pluralism and tolerance. Last Friday, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman wrote: "What we are seeing in Iraq, the Palestinian territories and Lebanon is an effort by Islamist parties to use elections to pursue their long-term aim of Islamizing the Arab-Muslim world. This is not a conflict about Palestinian or Lebanese prisoners in Israel. This is a power struggle within Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq over who will call the shots in their newly elected 'democratic' governments and whether they will be real democracies."

It's not only about "Islamizing" the Arab-Muslim world, but the entire world.

The turmoil in the Middle East will not stay in the Middle East. This is a world war and the first shots have already been fired in Europe and America. In an online story the London Daily Telegraph subsequently removed "for legal reasons," Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo warned that British Muslims could soon form a state within Britain. Dr. Sookhdeo, a former Muslim, said, "in a decade, you will see parts of English cities which are controlled by Muslim clerics and which follow, not the common law, but aspects of Muslim sharia law."

The latest upheaval in the Middle East may subside but the objectives of those whose aim is Israel's destruction will not. The enemies of Israel, Europe and America believe this is all-out war. The question is, do we understand the temper of the times?

Cal Thomas is a columnist for Tribune Media Services.

Comments

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Cal and the extremist Israelis now reining terror on mostly innocent civilians in Lebanon are the mirror image of the violent extremists of Hamas and Hezbollah.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

"Gotta love ol' Cal - it"

Yes, "it" truly is only mildly recognizable as a cognizant human being.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

My, you certainly have a tidy rationalization for mass murder.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Watching my government cheerlead while Israel caprt bombs a defenseless country does make me a bit whiny.

But if we extend your logic just a bit further, the real solution to this problem is to give Hamas and Hezbollah a couple of billion a year so they can buy uniforms and advanced weapons systems just like Israel has.

Could you buy into that?

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

"The only problem is that there are actually people foolish enough to fall for such a ploy."

Bozo has been consistent in her defense of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda, regardless of their actions.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Could you explain how this action will defend Israel?

Instead of having the Lebanese people pissed off at Hezbollah for the stupid border raid, they are now really pissed at Israel, and more sypathetic to Hezbollah (whose founding was a direct result of past Israeli occupations of S. Lebanon.)

The escalation by Israel also created the opening for a retaliation by Hezbollah, who have been launching scores of rockets on Israel ever since. N. Israel isn't nearly as dangerous a place as Lebanon is right now, but it's essentially in lockdown right now, too.

Some defense.

fundamental 8 years, 6 months ago

Bozo,

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations. They are not recognized states, as Israel is and has been for 58 years. Israel has the right to defend itself and attempt to recover that which has been taken from them. If anybody should be giving Hezbollah a couple billion a year, it should be Lebanon, so they can easily identify for the Israelis who it is they're wanting to attack, as opposed to innocent civilians, whom they do not wish to harm.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

"Bozo has been consistent in her defense of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda, regardless of their actions."

You're a comfortable liar, Godot, but this is a stretch even for your well-practiced mendacity.

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

The defenseless Hezbollah, having launched more than 100 Katusha (sp?) rockets into Israel so far today, managed to strike a home in Nazareth (a sacred site and a non-military target), killing three, two of them children.

Gotta love those poor, helpless, noble Hezbos.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

"as opposed to innocent civilians, whom they do not wish to harm."

Their actions clearly demonstrate that they couldn't care less about the civilians, except perhaps for the bad PR it creates.

mooseamoose 8 years, 6 months ago

have you noticed the joy and glee that war brings out in some people? It's really sickening....

fundamental 8 years, 6 months ago

Oh come on, Bozo. Israel has no interest in harming innocent civilians. Obviously Hezbollah is to blame for any loss of civilian life because they refuse to fight an honorable fight. If the Lebanese government had any sense, they would start attacking Hezbollah from the inside just to expose them and avoid the civilian casualties. Unfortunately, the Lebanese government seems to be impotent (read: colluding with Hezbollah) where cracking down on terrorist organizations in their own country is concerned.

prioress 8 years, 6 months ago

As they used to say when the local terrorists were at it, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." When the Jayhawks and the Tigers were slugging it out 150 years ago, both sides knew they were "right." Lots of noise and little light in the discussions of the current tragedy.

Reminds me of the quote from a great teacher: "In seeking wisdom the first step is silence, the second: listening, the third: remembering, the fourth: practicing, the fifth: teaching others." - Solomon Ibn Gabirol

Not much listening going on now; just murder on both sides, each in the name of their "loving" god.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 6 months ago

The core point being made here is correct: this is a cultural world war, but a cultural war being fought with bombs and guns. This is a dangerous time. Someone, at some point, is going to set off a nuclear device, and when that happens, the war in Iraq will look like two school-girls pulling hair on the playground compared to the war(s) that will be fought over "Allah".

God: Always a good excuse for men to act out their hate of each other.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Countering the willful ignorance and gleeful warmongering is certainly a daunting task.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

From Charles Krauthammer:

In a stunning development, the 22-member Arab League criticized Hezbollah for provoking the current crisis. It is unprecedented for the Arab League to criticize any Arab party while it is actively engaged in hostilities with Israel. But the Arab states know that Hezbollah, a Shiite militia in the service of Persian Iran, is a threat not just to Lebanon but to them as well. Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan have openly criticized Hezbollah for starting a war on what is essentially Iran's timetable (to distract attention from Iran's pending referral to the Security Council for sanctions over its nuclear program). They are far more worried about Iran and its proxies than about Israel. They are therefore eager to see Hezbollah disarmed and defanged.

Fine. Everyone agrees it must be done. But who to do it? No one. The Lebanese are too weak. The Europeans don't invade anyone. After its bitter experience of 20 years ago, the United States has a Lebanon allergy. And Israel could not act out of the blue because it would immediately have been branded the aggressor and forced to retreat.

Hence the golden, unprecedented opportunity. Hezbollah makes a fatal mistake. It crosses the U.N.-delineated international frontier to attack Israel, kill soldiers and take hostages. This aggression is so naked that even Russia joins in the Group of Eight summit communique blaming Hezbollah for the violence and calling for the restoration of Lebanese sovereignty in the south.

But only one country has the capacity to do the job. That is Israel, now recognized by the world as forced into this fight by Hezbollah's aggression.

The road to a solution is therefore clear: Israel liberates south Lebanon and gives it back to the Lebanese.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

"Israel liberates south Lebanon and gives it back to the Lebanese."

Oh goody, Israel is destroying Lebanon in order to save it.

What'd I say about willful ignorance and gleeful warmongering?

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Bozo, you might possibly understand the situation better if you moved beyond repeating cliches and simply looked at the situation with an open mind. I'm not asking you to defend Israel or Hezbollah. I agree that it's a hideous thing that this was started in Lebanon, but Hezbollah is not a nation state and therefore depends on other countries for safe passage. Lebanon wants them gone, but they won't go!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

The misinformation posted above aside, the current Lebanese govt. is not controlled by Syria, but they are extremely weak, being outmanned and outgunned by Hezbollah. If Israel hadn't launched a full-scale attack on Lebanon, Hezbollah would have had a PR nightmare with the Lebanese people. Now it's Israel PR nightmare

All Israel is doing now is reigniting the civil war that tore Lebanon apart for 15 years, and created massive security problems for Israel.

Deja vu all over again.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

If you quit displaying your ignorance, I'll quit commenting on it.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

a war that has been going on thousands of years and for some unknown reason every one here thinks they are right. It is nice to sit here in the USA and yell about all parties involved. None of the groups involved in this conflict give a rats a** what we think or say and could really careless.

fundamental 8 years, 6 months ago

Bozo,

Please point out which sections of the Krauthammer column were "misinformation." Was it the section which described the Arab League's reaction? I think not. My guess is you have a philosophical disagreement with what one country should do when attacked by a terrorist organization. I suspect you feel Israel should let someone else take care of Hezbollah instead of creating this "PR nightmare" themselves. If that's the case, who do you think will take care of Hezbollah (and by "take care of" I don't mean coddle; it's clear Iran and others are already doing this)? It's obvious that Israel is in this pretty much alone. Noone else in the region has done a damned thing (aside from the Arab League decrying Hezbollah's attacks; that and nickel will get you 5 cents) to stop the fighting or the agression of Hezbollah. Of course it falls to Israel.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

I bet they really feel all alone as they fly American-made fighter jets dropping American-made bombs (on primarily civilian and/or non-Hezbollah targets) while our president cheers them on.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Das_U: I think you better give up on Bozo. It does not make sense to keep arguing with someone who is closed to discussion. Bozo, you're frustrating because you appear just to be waiting for your turn to talk, so to speak, rather than engaging in the discussion.

fundamental 8 years, 6 months ago

It's true, Laura. Has Bozo actually said anything of real substance or worth in her last few posts? No. Nothing of substance at all. Pretty sad to resort to name calling and repeating ones self, instead of engaging in a real debate.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

"The only thing wrong about what I stated earlier was that it is the President, not the Prime Minister who is supported by Syria."

You also forgot to mention that the Prime Minister, not the President, runs the government, and that government is the first in many years to be independent of Syrian control.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

At some point, the violence has to stop. While the border raid by Hezbollah deserves condemnation, the escalation by Israel will ultimately only strengthen Hezbollah.

The only thing that could weaken Hezbollah is a strong Lebanese government, and this action can only lead to its eventual (imminent?) collapse. That will not rid Israel or Lebanon of the menace created by Hezbollah, and will also allow for Syria's re-entrance into Lebanese political life.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

It's a parliamentary system, and in order to form a coalition, they included Hezbollah-- the main shiite organization in a country that is 60% shiite.

They would have been condemned for the raid on Israel by most Lebanese, who don't want war with anyone, and the process of reining them in would have been moved along.

Now they can commit whatever atrocities they want, although they'll never be able to compete with Israel's firepower in leveling death and destruction.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

The conservative, autocratic governments in Sunni Arab countries are covering their a**es by distancing themselves from an organization they weren't close to anyway.

Hezbollah will continue to get support from Iran and Syria, and their support in Lebanon increases daily with every bomb dropped by Israel.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Given that countries act on their own best interest, I question what exactly we get from our support of Israel.

I question whether or not most of our problems in the Arab/Muslim world would disappear along with our support for Israel.

Understand, my concern is completely with America, with the United States' best interests. A compelling argument could be made that our support for Israel is a mistake; that the very existence of a Jewish state-island in an Arab/Muslim sea is not feasible or logical.

Let Israel disband, accept Israelis into our country, and give the land back to the Palestinians - the rightful owners. You may gasp with disbelief or frown with incredulity, but that is the only scenario - short of mutual annihilation - that has any chance of success.

Too many of you simply do not understand the nature of true hatred.

Jim Fisher 8 years, 6 months ago

Xeno and Bozo, pull your heads out. the only solution is to turn Hamas into hummus and Hezbollah into hezblownup. The annoyance of them firing bottle rockets into N.Israel will get Damascus nuked and Syria blockaded. The latter would be a good thing- Syria would no longer be a base of operation for the insurgency in Iraq, speeding up the mop-up job there.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

We can't blockade Iraq, and now you want to fail in blockading Syria, too?

Lepanto1571 8 years, 6 months ago

xenophon: "give the land back to the Palestinians - the rightful owners"

grail: "The Jews PURCHASED the tracts of land that became the start of Israel from the Ottomans (and others) back in the early 20th century."

So xenophon, how does one determine "rightful ownership?" Purchase or conquest? How far back do we turn to establish this legitimacy?

The answer could open a Pandoras Box of "legitimate" claims to the area.

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

This is not really World War III, it is a continuation of World Wars I & II. We have had periods of cease-fire that we mistook for peace; the Islamists have festered and stewed in their resentment, and have built their strength, and now the so-called treaties and solutions that we thought were settled are up for grabs again.

mooseamoose 8 years, 6 months ago

Holyg - did you see Leno's comment last night on the president in Germany - he had a clip of W eating a roll and chewing with his mouth wide open. This was at one of those fancy diplomatic dinners mind you with Blair next to him. Classy.

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

HGA, I specfically avoided "they." I was quite clear in my post.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Bush Gropes, Planet Cringes Knead a German chancellor, banter dumbly, reveal global ignorance. It's Dubya abroad!

http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

Lepanto1571 8 years, 6 months ago

grail:

"Quite frankly, I think you're more interested in CREATING a difference of opinion where none exists. You're not above an Arminius-like misrepresentation or two."

You thought?

Umm, no grail, but feel free to draw the wrong conclusions and make misrepresentations. I suppose you hold yourself up as a paragon of virtuous fact representation? What you've written, (and this is an old story) again, seems to apply to yourself more than the intended recipient.

I was making a legitimate request for clarification from xenophon to define terms. Perhaps you would like to tackle the "legitimate claim" question?

We can literally turn the clock on "legitimate claims" back millenia. Some of these groups no longer exist, but, then again, some do. Groups have made claims to the area through a number of means throughout it's chaotic history.

Anyway, xenophon, when you get a chance, please explain "rightful ownership". It believe it important to a discussion of this particular area.

grail: "I think that the Palestinians have as much a right to be in the area as the Israelis."

In that I do not disagree. Both also have legitimate rights of self-defense. There is no easy solution and I'm no blind follower who believes the Palestinians naturally wrong and the modern State of Israel naturally right.

BTW, why is CREATING in all Caps?

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

I think this is a big moment in the history of Judaism. Most of us have been terribly frustrated by Israel's measured responses to attacks on its people and its border. I have hopes that Israel will not hold back this time.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

holygrailale:

Que? Guess the Valiums ran out. Didn't fool anybody, though. Their kind are ingrained.

For those of you who give unfettered loyalty to Israel in particular and Jews in general, Israel is a tenuous state, one that exists where it should not, with a questionable claim on legitimacy. Will not google and wiki inre the origins of the Jewish state, but read enough Leon Uris to know that, after the 1948 war, Israel expanded vastly by occupying Palestinian territories. Also, Israelis routinely treat Arabs and Palestinians who live and work in Israel as second and third-class citizens. Water is a contentious issue - and will become more so with the passage of time - and Israelis routinely claim and seize water rights, leaving Palestinian communities without.

No one can deny that Muslims hate Israel, and Jews in general, but I have yet to see anyone on this site explain why. Muslims are not monsters (although I don't care for their religion, and recently received death threats from headbangers-for-Allah in a fly-specked country I barely heard of - Qatar - for articles critical of Islam I write for an on-line magazine) and someone should at least to attempt an explanation of why Palestinians/Muslims hate Jews and Israel so much. I'd be curious to reach such an epistle.

Again, my concern is America's best interests. Frankly, I'd like to be able to sell Chevrolets, Maytag washers, Hewlitt-Packard computers, and Kansas beef everywhere in the Muslim world - something we simply cannot do now. Maybe Conservativeman will judge such sentiments as crass socialistic/communism, but that is where our best interests lie.

And let's look ahead to the future. A hundred years from now, does anyone see a scenario where Israel and its Muslim neighbors live in peace? Think again. This type of racial, religious, cultural hatred is to the bone, to the death. When Iran, or whoever, gets nuclear weapons capability, they will use it against Israel. Consider that, and post accordingly.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

HolyGrail: I concur 100% regarding the use of nukes. Bad idea for everyone.

Xeno: Given the diaspora, I don't think you'll be seeing Israelis leaving the area anytime soon. It does drive home the point that there never has been--and probably never will be--a safe place for Jews.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Oh, G-d, this is too ironic. From the Jersalem Post:

Enraged by the failure of the Arab countries to help Hizbullah and Hamas in their confrontation with Israel, one of the major Palestinian militias announced on Tuesday that it had recruited dozens of women to join the fight against Israel.

"Today we have established an army of women to defend the Arabs and Muslims," said Shayma al-Koka, one of the leaders of the force whose members marched in Gaza City on Tuesday. "If Arab men can't defend the honor of the Arabs and Muslims, then the women will fulfill their duty. Arab men and armies have failed in carrying out their moral and religious duties."

I love it. Even in Palestine, women complain about the incompetency of men!

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

HGA wrote: "We have to be smarter than they are to succeed. That might mean changing the playing field on which the battle is fought."

Please elaborate.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Regardless of how Israel came into creation, the Jews aren't going to leave the middle east. Israel and the Palestinians need to reach some sort of accomodation, because their fates are inextricably intertwined.

Here's an idea-- move the UN to Jerusalem, and make Israel/Palestine an international protectorate similar to the District of Columbia.

baldwinCITY 8 years, 6 months ago

not a lot of kindness or tolerance here...sadly, not a surprise

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

"I have hopes that Israel will not hold back this time."

As counterproductive as I think Israel's campaign in Lebanon will prove to be, neither Israel nor Hezbollah has pulled out all the stops. Israel could totally flatten S. Lebanon, but Hezbollah hasn't yet launched its most destructive missiles yet, some of which can reach Tel Aviv. If Hezbollah really feels backed into a corner, they will launch them.

While the attacks against Lebanon might feel good to Israelis, they will not make them any safer. Likely quite the contrary.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

You know, Bozo, you're right. In my excitement over seeing Israel finally do something for itself, I'm forgetting that the people who actually live there are going through, quite literally, hell. My husband would like our daughters to fulfill their military obligation to Israel and while that's a good idea in theory, I'll feel differently when they reach that age. If, of course, they have anywhere to go at that point.

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

I heard this quote today, and think it is worth repeating:

If we take all the weapons from Hezbollah and Hamas, the fighting will stop; if we take all the weapons from Israel, the Jews in Israel will die.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Laura:

""If Arab men can't defend the honor of the Arabs and Muslims, then the women will fulfill their duty. Arab men and armies have failed in carrying out their moral and religious duties."

I love it. Even in Palestine, women complain about the incompetency of men!"

Laura you are as always, right on. It is funny in a sick way, and it did make me laugh with a "gallows humor" which surfaces in times of Tragedy.

Isn' t the Jersalem Post a great newspaper?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= HGA:

"...but it would disrupt oil enough to easily send the entire world into depression."

I am thinking of taking up my old hobby of drinking again, seem like the times are a changin'.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Xeno:

"Frankly, I'd like to be able to sell Chevrolets, Maytag washers, Hewlitt-Packard computers, and Kansas beef everywhere in the Muslim world - something we simply cannot do now. "

I'd like to sell them a lot of PORK!

Xeno:

"Again, my concern is America's best interests."

No it is not. Your concern is adhering to leftist political dogme that Isreal is in the wrong, and we have hurt "the poor muslims". These guys stepped out of line here....not Isreal. Look at the remarks form the SUnni arabs, they are saying NOTHING. As for Hizbollah, they have put their sights on the US. SO THEY have targeted us, now. IT is time to engage your brain.

Again, THEY DO NOT CARE about your ability to understand them, They do not CARE if you AGREE with them, they do not want your SUPPORT....THEY WANT YOU DEAD!

WHOM??? Hizbullah, Hamas, Iran, and Syria. Those are "they"!

BUY a clue please.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

XENO again:

"And let's look ahead to the future. A hundred years from now, does anyone see a scenario where Israel and its Muslim neighbors live in peace?"

Yes when fundamentalists that want to kill people are all dead, or will be killed if they start any more crap! That is when I can envision peac in the middle east. It lies along the road Isreal has chosen, and the world needs to support it. The Euros Know this, The Sunni Arab Countries Know this, the Americans (except for 60's throwback libs... PEACE MAN!), and the Hizbollah and Hamas know this as well. That is why they are firing rockets and are trying to "realign" the Arab Middle East. THIS IS NOT ABOUT ISREAL! THose of you who are agruing about Isreal and what thay have done, are blind and ignorant of actural real world conditions and reactions.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

But if you complete that thought, it would also mean that all Palestinians would be exiled to Gaza, Jordon or S. Lebanon. I'm sure if the Jews would volunteer to leave Israel, no Jews would be killed either.

So while it's an interesting thought, it's basically meaningless.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

IDF orders Lebanese to move north of Litani River

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291950091&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"The IDF ordered on Wednesday night all Lebanese residents living south of the Litani River to move to the river's northern side.

The move to warn the southern Lebanese residents indicates IDF intentions to either step up bombing missions in the area, to enter southern Lebanon with ground forces, or both."

See the IDF let's the Lebaneses KNow that they are fixin' to start something, and are telling them to get out of the way, northe of the river.

Hizbullah does not do that, they lob rockets, wait for emergency services and lob some more in on top of EMS.

What cowards and scum! How can anyone justify or support these scum!

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

"I'm sure if the Jews would volunteer to leave Israel, no Jews would be killed either."

Hmmmm, they were forced to leave Europe and Russia or be annihilated; now you suggest the ony way they can save themselves is to leave Israel.

Where would you have them go, Hezbozo?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Only someone with minimal reading comprehension, or someone grasping for a strawman, would assert that I suggested that they do any such thing, Godot.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

"Do any of you?"

No, they use F-16's and helicopter gunships.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

From an out of it BOZO:

"No, they use F-16's and helicopter gunships."

I guess that would not be equal to:

"I don't ever recall in my lifetime hearing or reading about a Jew getting onto a bus with 20 pounds of explosives strapped to his body, chanting to himself something about the Almighty..........and then blowing himself up (along with 30 other innocent souls who happen to be close by)."

Morally equal? DOn't think so. You don't send an F-16 out on civilians...too expensive, same for helicopter gunships. You only take them out if you have to. That is in SELF DEFENSE!

What part of that do you not get?? OH. LOL that's right, you ar a BOZO!!!

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

THis is how wared the world is when the UN comes out with an assinine statement like this:

"U.N. urges U.S. to set better example on rights"

Unh, the UN ned top clean up it's own house. ANd some guy from Argentina says that we are "militarizing our border". WHat business is that of his? I guess he does not remember the Faulklands Incident!

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Lou Dobbs is getting his "face time" for his stance on opposing illigal immigration and supporting the middle Americans. His analysis was right on, and insight is good as well.

I think you did not get the finer point of his analysis. It does NOT support a "pro hizbollah" POV. It is Lou sticking his tounge out at the World leaders who, like some on this board are railing against Isreal that is "injuring a fledging democracy" of Lebanon, has no world's against the infiltrators and insurgents nor support outword or otherwise of the "fledgling democracy in Iraq", with "rescue boats coming to the rescue."

The important quotes:

"Yet we have seen no rescue ships moving up the Euphrates for Iraqis who are dying in their streets, markets and mosques each day. French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has not leaped to Baghdad as he did Beirut."

AND:

"Secretary General Kofi Annan and British Prime Minister Tony Blair to join in the call for an international security force, ignoring the fact that a U.N. force is already in Southern Lebanon, having failed to secure the border against Hezbollah's incursions and attacks and the murder and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers."

There is no diplomacy, because this is same sides of different coins, and the US is always getting the bill.

Lou is cool and writes extremely well.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

"There is a reason that you dont see questionable Israeli tactics on CNN. Maybe if you watched Al-Jazeera you could see what the other half sees. Of course, that would be propaganda, same as CNN, but between them, the truth lies."

Actually, watch Christian Amanpour, she is not happy with Hizbullah, just watch her on air. She is Iranian. As for watching Al_jazeera for objectivity and "seeing what the other half sees". That is perposterous! AL-J is in the propaganda business. Additionally if the left leaning CNN is "not showing atrocities" committed by Isreal, then dude they ain't happening! LOL!

"Also, lets not pretend that atrocities are not carried out by both sides in this conflict."

YOU can pretend that, but the truth is that Hizbullah are the ones with artocities on their side. Isreal tells people to get out of the way and they are preparing to strike:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c...

I posted it earlier, obviously you did not read it.

"The IDF ordered on Wednesday night all Lebanese residents living south of the Litani River to move to the river's northern side.

The move to warn the southern Lebanese residents indicates IDF intentions to either step up bombing missions in the area, to enter southern Lebanon with ground forces, or both."

See the IDF let's the Lebaneses KNow that they are fixin' to start something, and are telling them to get out of the way, northe of the river.

Hizbullah does not do that, they lob rockets, wait for emergency services and lob some more in on top of EMS.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

HGA I like that!

"Judaism, Christianity and Islam come from the same origin........Abraham.

They aren't different religions.

They're different denominations.

Does viewing them from that vantage point change anything????"

Good One!

melott 8 years, 6 months ago

He wants the rapture to start now. I will steal his car.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 6 months ago

Actually, it's really just a useful rhetorical device for the whackos running Iran to spew hatred towards Israel, just as it's useful for BushCo to do its fearmongering demagoguery. The average Iranian would be happy to never think much at all about Israel and just go about their daily lives.

I suspect the average person anywhere in the middle east would be happy if all the violence and hatred would just go away, and everybody could just live their lives in peace, whether they are Jew, Arab, Christian, Shia or Sunni.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

The idiots who blubber and bloviate on this site - particularly that asbestos twit - in support of Israel have yet to posit WHY Muslims/Arabs hate Israel and Jews so fiercely, so implacably.

I'm curious what they ascribe to the underlying motives of the Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Palestinians who readily walk wearing pounds of explosvies into crowds of Jews and blow themselves up.

It seems you don't really understand what hatred is, what it does to ordinary human beings . . . which is what both Jews and Muslims are. You don't understand what war and killing mean to a people, how it commandeers, then completely overwhelms their normal scheme of life.

I readily confess that I hate black Muslims in American prisons - particularly the subspecies who call themselves "Moors." The basis of my hatred is the internecine, essentially defensive wars we (the white population) had to wage against them in order to live, to simply exist in the prisons. There are parallels between what we had to do and what Israel has to do now, but the results will always be the same. They hate us, we learned to hate them just as thoroughly, viciously.

When Iran attains nuclear weapons capability, it will use nukes against Israel. Without reservation or compunction; with joy in their hearts and confident of the approbation of the rest of the Muslim world - they will nuke Israel. We can only hope that Hillary and William the Great can fashion an adequate response.

hottruckinmama 8 years, 6 months ago

well good lord i don't want to become a blithering anti-American far-left socialist idiot. and i sure as heck don't want to say salami/bologna to anyone. sometimes i think it would be better off to stay away from the news altogether. but back to the question. is this really the beginning of wwIII?

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Getting back to the Isreal/Hizbullah/Iran/Syria thing.....

I think the world is reacting, just as one man decided it would react when the old warhorse himself made the decision, and it is being played out...now.

That is "Sharon's Gambit". Sharon is one man that would NEVER give back land without condition, nor cede safety without guarntee. That was why The warhorse "kicked out fellow Jews" from Gaza, and the other "occupied territories" and gave back ALL the land to the 1967 levels that has been agreed upon by ALL Palintenian leaders...even Arafat.

I believe the "Sharon's Gambit" was in fact to let the WHOLE world know, that THEY COMPLIED with EVERYTHING THE PALINTENIANS wanted, by kicking HIS OWN PEOPLE off the disputed lands. Unsaid, was that if anything came down on Isreal, he had plans to Ohlmert that Hizbullah was to be crushed if they twitched.

And twitched they did, and Ohlmert sent in the troops...a little ham fisted, but he is not the "old warhorse of Isreal".

I believe that as "only Nixon could go to China" only Sharon could give the land back, and strike so hard if Isreal were ever in the future were attacked,... as Hizbolluh did. Sharon KNEW the world would have AND accepted and COULD NOT DENY, Isreal had done ALL SHE COULD FOR PEACE, and they were not the transgressors.

That is what I Believe is happening in Lebanon, and why the UN and the Sunni Arabs know they cannot criticize Isreal, because she gave all the land back.

Everyone knows this...even the left leaning press. However lord help us if IDF hits a Mosque, School or Hospital.......

That my friends it THINKING.

What most of you do here is insult each other.

TRY...jus TRY to form a cogent and original thought that is congruent with facts..

and leave political preconceived notions at the door

it will set you free!

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

What in the HELL does Zidane, the Republican party or the Democratic party have ANYTHING to do with the Incidnet that IS the topic of this thread.

YOU off topic people add nothing but noise. GO stroke your own egos elsewhere, if you cannot stay on topic.

IT is nopt a thread for bitching about each other off topic.

VERY RUDE in the blogs, hijacking and stroking ones own ego and not discussing anything in the post on the thread.

Waste of bandwidth...lots of noise.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

holygrailale:

Your post of 12:34 p.m. was outstanding. Can almost hear conservativeman chewing his dentures in frustration.

You are their queen; no doubt it galls them considerably to have to admit it, if only to themselves. Keep up the good work.

Maybe we should consider retroactively impeaching GWB.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

"Sharon's Gambit" has achieved so far what his vision was. The worm has turned.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291957056&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hizbullah has created a "state within a state" in Lebanon and must be disarmed, Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said in an interview published Thursday in an Italian daily.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

I've got to quit going to bed so early! Look at what I've missed!

Asbestos, you make me give a heavy sigh this morning. I miss Sharon. What made him so great is that he was something of a hot-head and hard-core in the early days and he became so wise with experience.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Why do people correct spelling and grammar? Everyone makes mistakes.

As for people like Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly...they are simply entertainers, people. You should not take them seriously.

I think we've worn ourselves out with talk of Israel. I had hoped someone else would comment on Sharon. That he lies in a vegetative state while all this erupts in Lebanon is horribly poignant, to say the least.

brujablanco 8 years, 6 months ago

From an observer's view - conservativeman, rightthinker, 75X55 and that other lepanto poster got just what they wanted. This thread is done because they came in name-calling and trying to make anyone with an opinion look like an Anti-Semitist, Anti-American traitor.

They are the traitors and will rot in their conservative hell.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Jews and Muslims - a pox on both their houses. Jews, with their: "We are the Chosen People of God; the rest of you are . . . not." Little wonder our grandparents kept them out of the country club.

And Muslims, with their bizarre, transitional religion, are equally distasteful. Their religion is an insult to human dignity.

Again, a pox on both their houses. Down the road, when the headbangers-for-Allah achieve nuclear weapons capability, they WILL attack Israel. Jews will gaze out from under the rubble of Tel Aviv and Haifa to America to avenge them: Hillary and William the Great must demonstrate the necessary statesmanship to refuse them.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

and the wheels on the bus go round and round.....

brujablanco 8 years, 6 months ago

holygrailale:

It is simple to see what is happening here. Intelligent discussion was had until conservativeman showed up and started slinging crap. Rightthinker is a follower. I really think he is not sure where he stands in all this, just follows conservativeman's lead. Dangerous lead, I would say. Conservative man is living in the wrong era - he would have fit in nicely in Salem, and not as a purported witch. Witches are nice, intelligent folks, with a love for our Earth and its people.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Xeno: How terribly unfair. My rabbi (and I agree with him) doesn't even believe in the concept of "chosen-ness." How mean-spirited of you! Just because your religion is a zillion strong and you get to slap your fishy Jesus signs on the back of your car doesn't mean other people aren't suffering for their beliefs. I have more respect for Muslims than I do people like you.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

people the key to all is tolerence, I see none of that any where.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Yes, Momma . . . tolerance. I'm glad you brought that up because that takes us back to the topic at hand: the attack on Israel via the kidnapping of its soldiers. I don't think anyone could say, in all honesty, that as a whole, Israel and the Jews have been intolerant. We just want to be left alone.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Hippie, I shouldn't have made such a smart-a$$ comment about the fishy things. What I meant is that it's very easy, and acceptable, to publicly disply signs of one's Christianity to the public at large here in the U.S.A. (and most European nations). Jews are taught at a very young age to keep Stars of David or any other obvious signs of Judaism to oneself. Yes, you will occasionally see a man in a yalmulke or a woman with a S of D necklace, but we know to be discreet because even little synagogues in Kansas get spray-painted with swastikas. We want to be left alone by the Muslims, the Xenos, the HippieChicks, etc.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

is it not funny that so many years ago when tech. did not let us see what was going on around the world in just seconds we all survived, and did not really give a crap unless it involved us directly, but today the whole world is going nuts about this, a conflict that has been going on for at least 4000 yrs.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

good vs. evil- right vs. wrong- But who decides which is which? All people involved think they are right and the other wrong.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

so you think you are right and the people you attack think they are right. so where does that leave everyone?

brujablanco 8 years, 6 months ago

conservativeman:

AGENDA? Why, don't you? Kind of scared of that hell, aren't you?

Lepanto1571 8 years, 6 months ago

brujablanco:

"From an observer's view - conservativeman, rightthinker, 75X55 and that other lepanto poster got just what they wanted. This thread is done because they came in name-calling and trying to make anyone with an opinion look like an Anti-Semitist, Anti-American traitor. They are the traitors and will rot in their conservative hell."

As an astute observer I'm sure, would mind reviewing this thread and the two posts I made here and point directly at the point where I "name-called and tried to make anyone with an opinion look like an Anti-Semitist, Anti-American traitor." I am sincerely interested in your thoughts regarding that "lepanto poster."

You sound like grail's alter user having a conversation with herself. You are a fraud like grail as proven by the pass you have given the most partsian, mean-spirited, name-calling and disingenuous poster on the board.

Have a great day though!

brujablanco 8 years, 6 months ago

grail, there are programs available to assist you in shedding the self-esteem destroying profession of prostitution and addiction to the pipe!

No grail, you'll continue business as usual in your spiteful and psuedo-intellectual manner, and we'll continue to see you as the gutless fraud you are.

Because you like to attack publicly and hurl crap grenades like a sissy in anonymous defilade. Not to metnion you couldn't make outlandish and unsubstantiated claims about yourself.

Here are a few however eloquent they are.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Laura:

You are something of a stranger to this site, or you would recognize that I despise all the old sky-god religions - Islam, Christianity, and Judiasm alike.

The racial/cultural/religious hatred evident in the Middle East war now is good enough reason to disdain Muslims and Jews alike. Both religions are vile and obsolete, for many reasons.

What those of us who care primarly about America and our country's best interests worry that the mess in the Middle East will ensare us more than it has already.

And the same could be said for Christianity. Were I alive two thousand years ago, I wouldn't lift a finger to save Jesus' life, but I'd make sure and kill Paul before he created Christianity. Hindsight is so wonderful.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

once again some one trys to pick a fight. maybe one own self absurbed thinking is what leads to such violence or maybe it is a lack of tolerence

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

lost me c-man but not paying much attention to all post all over.

Lepanto1571 8 years, 6 months ago

brujablanco:

It would be best for you to remain just an "observer." Let's review my challenge, shall we?

Lepanto challenge to brjua: "As an astute observer I'm sure, would mind reviewing THIS THREAD and the TWO POST I MADE HERE and point directly at the point where I "name-called and tried to make anyone with an opinion look like an Anti-Semitist, Anti-American traitor?"

Bruja, see if you can determine what all three quotes you have provided below have in common and where they specifically fail in meeting the requirements of my challenge to you.

**"grail, there are programs available to assist you in shedding the self-esteem destroying profession of prostitution and addiction to the pipe!"

A comment made in the "POOR COMPARISON" thread. An appropriate response to grail's disingenuous claim.

**"No grail, you'll continue business as usual in your spiteful and psuedo-intellectual manner, and we'll continue to see you as the gutless fraud you are."

Again a comment made in the "POOR COMPARISON" thread. A statement of well established fact regarding grail.

**"Because you like to attack publicly and hurl crap grenades like a sissy in anonymous defilade. Not to mention you couldn't make outlandish and unsubstantiated claims about yourself."

Again a comment from the "POOR COMPARISON" thread. Easily defended as a fact regarding grail's public attacks from anonymity and her cowardly refusal to produce her credentials as "published," all the while pooh-poohing the education level of all who happen to disagree with her on reasonable grounds or expose her fraudulent and disingenuous tactics.

While I admire your attempts to defend grail, I do not admire your rather obvious tactics as a multiple user poster and fraudulent posturing.

You really need to pay more attention to what is written before you post and embarrass yourself. The title of this thread is "WORLD WAR HAS ALREADY BEGUN." Remaining an "observer," I would say, or returning to your primary user name, is the best course of action for you to seek at this point.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

This has really degraded into a mindless, dogma filled, "good ole fashioned"..BIOSOLIDS FIGHT!

Good thing that people would not be asked to leave if they did not stay on post topic, this place would be EMPTY!

One observation which shows TOTAL self absorbtion:

On a thread discussing if this is the start of WWIII, some not too well adjusted individuals comment NOT ON THE state of THE WORLD.... but choose to hurl names and accuzations locally that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the DISCUSSION AT HAND!!!

GEEZ, that would be very embarrasing,... if one were to do that, make a discussion about the Injuries to the World, into a personal attack fight by a few unstable egos.

Does anyone here read their own posts???

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

rightthinker:

You been imbibing too much goofy stuff. I don't quote or cite all that much scripture; only when it serves a purpose.

And life has been pretty good to me, all in all. Don't have many complaints. But we enlightened liberal Democrats have a responsibility to break the chains and fetters that bind you poor wretches who believe in superstitious nonsense, or murderous ideologies that culminate in entire societies striving mightily to kill each other.

On a personal note, I suggest you prepare yourself for a rude - perhaps even bitter - awakening come November. I will be polite like the gentleman I am and not rub it in; however, don't see much chance that holygrailale will be so restrained. With the liar-Arminianus scuttling off to safety in Illinois, she's looking around for a blood substitute and, as conservativeman won't last past the first round, she might set her sights on you. Forewarned is forearmed.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

holygrailale:

Maybe the next time we down a few suds at Louise's, we should invite the local contingent of trogs to come slobber over you.

I'm amused reading their posts; they have no idea what a beautiful woman you are.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Old puke:

You get your misconceptions of prison from Hollywood and late-night TV comedians. Too bad I never had a chance to meet you in the joint; I would've fixed your perceptions to agree with reality.

Of course, that was impossible, for you were too busy sponging off Uncle Sam, whining about being too stupid, too lazy to get a job in the private sector.

Still want the name of my parole officer, old puke?

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

But you thought I shot a gun at some dorm and took on some Karate guys.

LOL

AHHHAHHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAHAHAAAAAHAA

"Now that's funny I don't care who ya are"

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Was meant as a joke, not as an atack, please accept it in that vein, in which it was meant.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

"How much of your "environmental science" is limited to four walls and a ceiling???"

Unanserable, and not a very good question.

it is kind of like being asked this:

"When you beat women do you use a belt or just your hands?"

Very mean, and illustrative.

brujablanco 8 years, 6 months ago

I am not an alias of some other poster. If you look, I have posted a minimal amount on this forum on various subjects. Just couldn't take it anymore after reading the conservative vile coming form some. I probably shouldn't have lumped Lepanto in with the idiots, but isn't that a lesson we learn early in life? The folks you hang out with are a reflection upon you.

conservativeman: as for doing my husband's laundry and cleaning his house? We tackle those chores together, in the nude, for fun.

whatupdown 8 years, 6 months ago

The "muslem" terrorist are Violent Blasphemers of Islam and should be taken out by the good and true Muslems.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Well this is unique and at least ON TOPIC!! You could have knocked me over with a feather. THIS is what those bitching about Isreal should see. FInally a Fatwa I can agree with!

Saudi fatwa: Don't support Hizbullah

Leading Wahhabi cleric in Saudi Arabia issues scathing fatwa against Hizbullah, declares it against Muslim Sharia law to support, join, or even pray for terror group; 'our advice to Sunnis is to denounce them, shun those who join them to show their hostility to Islam, to Muslims,' he rules

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3279310%2C00.html

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

rightthinker:

Think a mature Cheryl Tiegs. Legs up to her neck. Best thing, though, is her sense of humor. She can make anyone laugh and have a good time . . . even pathetic, sad trogos.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Seriously . . . she looks good! I'm not exaggerating. Got to be careful here, for she has already singed me a little for letting too much personal info about her out - she's very protective of her family and doesn't want any complications - but believe me when I say . . . she looks good!

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Cheryl was born in 1947, SO, on a previous discussion about "computers" with HGA, stated she was in college in the middle 70's, she is either older than in "early fourties" or lied about her starting and attendance at University.

Hmmm, very curious. That is why the "truth" and "facts" are much easier to keep your "story straight".

Do you folks have a soul?

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Human beings do not have souls. We have animal identities, unique to our individual entitites, but animal nonetheless.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

HGA obviously not.

ON the Editorial "Warming dispute" on July fourth.

Posted by holygrailale (anonymous) on July 4, 2006 at 5:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The first computer class I ever took was an APL 360 class in 1975."

You said that.

Do you post so much that you do not remember?

I stated:

"Cheryl was born in 1947, SO, on a previous discussion about "computers" with HGA, stated she was in college in the middle 70's, she is either older than in "early fourties" or lied about her starting and attendance at University."

How is that in error? Is this your usual MO. Lying , misrepresenting, obfuscating...then proclaiming yourself as sole possessor of worthwhile knowledge.

Pathetic.

temperance 8 years, 6 months ago

The State of Conservative Discourse in the Contemporary U.S.

"Libtard idiots want to destroy America before they see GWB succeed. You're traitors and liars. You're pathetic, you want America to fail, you're a moron." - conservativeman

[keep fighting the good fight holygraileale, hippychick, scenebooster! By not stooping to their infantile name-calling we show who REALLY cares about America's future]

temperance 8 years, 6 months ago

Funny Thing Conservativeman Said #467:

"Republicans didn't have hysterical outbursts when libtards were in charge."

Am I they only one who remembers the big & expensive investigation and impeachment process over whether or not Bill rec'd oral sex from an intern?

Gosh, that was during the 1990s, during a time of peace and prosperity, and before daily reports of Americans dying in the Middle East. We had a president who was ACTUALLY tough on terrorism instead of one who just talked big.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

temperance:

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !!!

It should be chiseled on his tombstone. Wonder how much money the Bush family and bin Laden's family has made together in their joint business deals?

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Nope. I mean George Herbert Walker Bush and George Walker Bush, and the bin Laden family of Saudi Arabia.

djazz 8 years, 6 months ago

Xeno and others, Holy

This month is the end of the fiscal year for Fed agencies to spend all the monies they have been allocated. It is referred to in DC as "Christmas in July." If they have monies not spent, big scramble to spend it and waste it as soon as possible! Can't let any surplus carry over!

This amounts to billions I understand. Afraid they won't get allocated as much next year if they don't spend it?

Sift it down through the system. It gets to the local National Guard in Lawrence even. Spend it quick.

So, rather than waste countless hours and useless verbage trying to relate Lauden and Bush families, why not try to figure this out?

Can't you carry over your cell phone minutes?

Carry over your spending on our taxes? Got a surplus, carry it over. Reduce the demand the next year in your budget?

Isn't that the way it should work? Libs, Jews, Bible thumpers, Conservatives, Leabonise, Israelis, etc.

djazz

djazz 8 years, 6 months ago

Holy and Asbetos

You are avoiding my question. You have avoided that with who took 101 or 360.

Perhaps your personal jaunts, and address should be addressed to more relevant issues. Get back to my previous post, answer that. Then get back to English 101 when you can twiddle your thumbs.

djazz

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Gald to see that you so readily recognize yourself, and delighted that you are still available to serve as victim-du-jour to HGA.

BTW, once you move beyond "The Road to Serfdom," you might want to look at Colm Brogan's "Our New Masters," Arthur Koestler's "Darkness at Noon," and Karl Popper's "The Open Society and its Enemies."

The best liberal Democrats are those who were formerly conservatives.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

"Not Bush's idea"?

Well then, could it be the problem with Your Hero was his lack of (native intelligence, stature, international experience, acumen, humility - pick one, or all) that prevented him from resisting the blandishments of Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and Don Rumsfeld to start an unnecessary war . . . when the focus of our efforts should have been Afghanistan - which is where William the Great and most former presidents would have focused?

Your Hero is a walking advertisement for mediocrity. In the future, when people google for "The Worst President," his picture will come up on the screen.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 6 months ago

Cal Thomas is correct. The west cannot allow its secular laws and institutions to be usurped by religious law and institutions.

Religious fundamentalism, xtian and mohamedan, must be confronted and stopped at every front, including here in the USA.

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Got this from a friend at my synagogue this morning and thought it was pretty interesting. Enjoy.

ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS 1. Israel became a state in 1312 B.C., two millennia before Islam; 2. Arab refugees from Israel began calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1967, two decades after (modern) Israeli statehood; 3. After conquering the land in 1272 B.C., Jews ruled it for a thousand years and maintained a continuous presence there for 3,300 years; 4. The only Arab rule following conquest in 633 B.C. lasted just 22 years; 5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem was the Jewish capital. It was never the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even under Jordanian rule, (east) Jerusalem was not made the capital, and no Arab leader came to visit it; 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the bible, but not once is it mentioned in the Qur'an; 7. King David founded Jerusalem; Mohammed never set foot in it; 8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem; Muslims face Mecca. If they are between the two cities, Muslims pray facing Mecca, with their backs to Jerusalem; 9. In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier; 10. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms; 11. Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries; 12. There are 22 Muslim countries, not counting Palestine. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them; 13. Fattah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel ceded most of the west bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian authority, and even provided it with arms; 14. During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths; 15. Out of 175 united nations security council resolutions up to 1990, 97 were against Israel; out of 690 general assembly resolutions, 429 were against Israel; 16. The U.N. was silent when the Jordanians destroyed 58 synagogues in the old city of Jerusalem. It remained silent while Jordan systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the mount of olives, an d it remained silent when Jordan enforced apartheid laws preventing Jews from accessing the temple mount and western wall.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Jews & Muslims: a pox on both their houses. What a neat, seemingly logical argument that overlooks that most of modern Israel was stolen from "Palestinians" during and after the 1948 war.

If only we could find a way to get fundamentalist Christian conservative Republicans in this country to start lobbing missiles at each other.

Frozen embryos, anyone?

Laura 8 years, 6 months ago

Scenebooster: I agree. It is depressing. This whole set of postings has been depressing. I wish I could say I have not contributed to the problem, but I'm sure I have. There's only one way to stop this nonsense and that's just to stop responding. Most of the people on this forum can't imagine what it's like to be a Jew or a Muslim. Hearing their opinions, it's as frustrating to me as listening to a bunch of middle-aged Christian men talk about abortion. Since they won't stop, I will. Thanks to those of you who have been so kind and supportive. L'Shalom, Laura.

ksmoderate 8 years, 6 months ago

" So let's see, kill babies, but not terrorist--Got it!!" -- rightthinker

Yes, I'm sure scenebooster relishes in the killing of babies. I'll bet he clubs seals and has gay sex, too! Anything else you'd like to spin today? Your language reveals your lack of intelligence. Sad.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Troglodyte pukes: An original thought and a cold drink of water would kill all your stupid asses.

HGA is a drop-dead gorgeous middle-aged woman. She wouldn't give the time of day to you losers.

While you rush to slobber over Israel, ask yourself: Jews are 5% of the US population. How many troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan are Jewish? 5 %? 3%? 1% One-half of one percent?

How many Americans killed in Iraq/Afghanistan were Jews? Do Jews, while comprising 5% of the US population, and who own 23% of the national wealth of the country, defend their country to the same degree lower and middle-class whites do?

And, consider this about American Jews. In circumstances where American and Israeli best interests conflict, who/what do American Jews support? The best interests of Israel, or the best interests of the United States?

Answer these questions truthfully, and then we can talk,

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

I think it is time for a new headline this one is just going in circles. No wait sorta like polotics never mind.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Xeno rants:

"While you rush to slobber over Israel, ask yourself: Jews are 5% of the US population. How many troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan are Jewish? 5 %? 3%? 1% One-half of one percent?

How many Americans killed in Iraq/Afghanistan were Jews? Do Jews, while comprising 5% of the US population, and who own 23% of the national wealth of the country, defend their country to the same degree lower and middle-class whites do?

And, consider this about American Jews. In circumstances where American and Israeli best interests conflict, who/what do American Jews support? The best interests of Israel, or the best interests of the United States?"

ANd just what does the numbers there have to do with the Isreal/Hizbullah war??

As you said answer THAT question truthfully and we can then talk.

OH and Obvious all seeing and objective talk fro Xeno:

"Troglodyte pukes: An original thought and a cold drink of water would kill all your stupid asses."

When are you going to learn that your dishonest narrow world view you solidified "in the joint" does not have ANYTHING relevant to do with world affairs?

I laughed myself hoarse when you posted your "moral equilivelence" lecture of "jail house gangs" and the current Isreali/Hizbullah war>

Geez, how mentally challanged, how morally directionless, how intellectually clueless. I personally would not want a positive compliment from you,.....considering the source.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

How many Americans killed in Iraq/Afghanistan were Jews? Do Jews, while comprising 5% of the US population, and who own 23% of the national wealth of the country, defend their country to the same degree lower and middle-class whites do?

And, consider this about American Jews. In circumstances where American and Israeli best interests conflict, who/what do American Jews support? The best interests of Israel, or the best interests of the United States?"

AND how is this BIAS of Xeno's not classified as anti-semetic?

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

"I personally would not want a positive compliment from you"?

Don't hold your breath on that one, airhead. Just keep schlupping buckets at Superfund clean-up sites and tell youself you're an omniscent, well-respected "scientist."

Actually read a post sometime, dilettante. How much of American foreign policy in the Middle East is influenced by Jewish-American political-financial clout? What if that clout is used to Israel's advantage, but not necessarily the United States'?

Take a cold drink of water.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

"Anti-semitic"? Yeah, whatever. But that's typical of those careful not to question American foreign policy support for Israel.

Call names and obfuscate the issues. How many Jews serve in the American armed forces? How many serve, have served, in Iraq and Afghanistan? How many have been killed or wounded in combat?

In instances where Israeli and American interests collide/conflict, who and what do most American Jews support?

All I want are answers to the questions.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Thanks, Xeno, ya proved my point, very well.

It is great when a level of psychosis is as predictable as yours!

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

When are you going to learn that your dishonest narrow world view you solidified "in the joint" does not have ANYTHING relevant to do with world affairs?

I laughed myself hoarse when you posted your "moral equilivelence" lecture of "jail house gangs" and the current Isreali/Hizbullah war!

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

Hey Xeno, TOE PICK:

"When are you going to learn that your dishonest narrow world view you solidified "in the joint" does not have ANYTHING relevant to do with world affairs?

I laughed myself hoarse when you posted your "moral equilivelence" lecture of "jail house gangs" and the current Isreali/Hizbullah war!"

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Dumb & Dumber:

There seems to be a marked lack of willingness to address difficult, complex questions. I recently received a death threat from a head-banger-for-Allah over an article critical of Islam I wrote for an on-line magazine.

Here, I asked a few simple questions about the ethnic/religious makeup of America's armed forces, and get viciously attacked by the local contingent of pathetic troglodytes.

Go back to reading your "Sgt. Rock" comic books and leave complex issues to those less "acumen-challenged."

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

"a new technique I'm not familiar with; insult everyone, ask questions and expect a dignified answer"?

Is this some new trog nuance of sarcasm? You're one of the most callously insulting posters on this site.

And I knew the answers to the questions before I posted them. The object was to get others to find them, think about their ramifications.

I was in prison because I was essentially ammoral, and did not observe a number of social conventions. Thirty-one years was a load, but reality is that scores, perhaps hundreds, of men who commited similar crimes will never get out. You should understand that I have foresworn violence against others (no mean feat, that) and make credible attempts to live as a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Marion:

Just curious - if one of your children, or grandchildren, was killed by Israeli gunfire, would you still be so ardently supportive of Israel?

One reason I asked is because it seems the Israelis are deliberately targeting civilian areas and homes, and have killed/wounded scores of children to date.

I have no love for Muslims - their religion is an insult to human dignity - but a case could be made that, based on their treatment of the Palestinians over the last 60 years, Jews are the new Nazis in the Middle East.

A pox on both their houses.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

xeno all religion is a perversion according to you, and I do not think they are targeting civilians so much but hezbabobo set up right in the middle of civilians, so any people that stay after being warned and after 14 days of bombing are just unfortunate victims. And what is up with the pox hex?

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

so is it a record yet?? xeno you remind me so much of someone I know it is sometimes scary, but not trying to attack just address your post.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

We might know one another.

"A pox on both their houses" is Shakespeare.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

unless you are a white 26yrold male with int. DWP doubtful.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

bialy:

The xtian bible is a pathetic joke. "Armageddon"? Not hardly. And revelation is a tired, faded piece of bogus imagery. Almost any catastrophe can, according to the nuances of revelation, be likened to the end of the world.

No such thing is in the cards, particularly not as an adjunct of xtian nonsense.

Relax in the sun with some cold malt liquor, and let the Jews and Muslims slaughter each other.

djazz 8 years, 6 months ago

The runup in the Market, the apparent peace and prosperity during the Clinton admistration was a fools paradise.

It all came home to roost. All the corruption underneath collapsed. All the Enrons, Worldcoms, etc. What Bush was dealt with was that. A nasty deal on the cards. Thats what Clinton left him.

So you see, who do you want to finish this War On Terror? WW111? It's a different war, clandestine fanatics who want to kill us all? Global.

So who do you want Hillary? Dean?

Who do think could better address this absolute threat to your children and or grandchildren? And life as you know it.

Make wise choices.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

The idiot-liar Arminianus:

Are you posting under "djazz" now? The anti-Clinton rant there was redundant with the stink of your animus for William the Great.

"anti-semitic"? Whatever. You think whatever your right-wing trog masters (Miniter, Limberger, O'Reilly, Hannity ad nauseam) tell you to think. Maybe you should parse the proposition that Israel has no business in the Middle East, that they stole much of the land that comprises their "nation" during and after the '48 war, which is why Arabs and Muslims hate them so fiercely.

You might also ask why the United States supports Israel so unconditionally. What do we get in return?

Show some objective analytical ability, and postpone plans for the next major lie you will be pilloried and humiliated for on this site.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

"that they stole much of the land that comprises their "nation" during and after the '48 war, which is why Arabs and Muslims hate them so fiercely."

Factually incorret and an outright lie. The UN and Britian CREATED iseral and it was made official in the 1948, UN resolution. You were blowing UN's horn, what about then?. THIS was NOT a US made problem. Besides the Jews have been there throughout history. Xeno, you just choose to ignore history and fact, but THAt is NOTHING new.

"You might also ask why the United States supports Israel so unconditionally. What do we get in return?"

Intell my young cluesless friend. They helped us get tremendous INTEL during the Cold War, and helped in both Gulf Wars. Isreal is the bastion of Democracy in the Middle east. You do like Democracy as a political process don't you....XENO...democrat?

And yes you are Anti-semetic, even if your friends accept it. Your possitions are clear on the matter and you have made your feelings known. That is what you have been stating here over and over.

Your discussion and dislike for all things Jewish and Isreali are quite clear.

Your anti-semetism is in no way an unearned tag. Like the Minutemen" on the border, they are unjustly labeled "racists", by those that oppose their constitutional given right to protect their border. That is not based on race ie NOT racist, whereas what you have spouted is antisemetic. Your position is clear.

"Show some objective analytical ability, and postpone plans for the next major lie you will be pilloried and humiliated for on this site."

You need to take your own advice! LOL Geez guy.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

If we ceased our narrow-minded, profitless support of Israel, most of our problems in the Muslim world would disappear.

For you dummies who didn't read history, in the first Arab-Israeli war, Palestinians were panicked into fleeing their homes, fields, orchards, buildings, schools, businesses by rumors that Israelis would kill them all.

That proved not true, but Israelis moved in and quickly occupied Palestinian territory - Palestinian homes, fields, orchards, buildings, schools, businesses.

When initial panic subsided and the Palestinians cautiously returned, or tried to return, to their homes, fields, orchards, buildings, schools, and businesses, they were either prevented from returning by Jewish security forces, or denied access and their former ownership of said homes, fields, orchards, buildings, schools and businesses.

No British or UN mandate; instead, outright thievery. Spend some time on-line and actually talk to Palestinians who lived through it, who were robbed blind by Israelis, who had their homes and livelihoods stolen by Jews.

assbestos: you are a dilettante idiot. Get a life.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Never underestimate the capacity of people to ignore the truth.

No doubt Israeils are fine people who have done wonderful things to create and sustain their nation and society; unfortunately, their nation was created from thievery from Palestinians. And they have compounded their initial trangressions by subsequently treating Arabs and Muslims in deplorable ways and manners, much as old South whites treated ex-slave blacks here in our own country.

Truth and reality are sometimes hard, bitter things to accept, but truth and reality is that Israel does not belong in the Middle East, and there will never be peace between Jews and Muslims there.

Have a nice day.

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

"Never underestimate the capacity of people to ignore the truth."

YOu do that so well Xeno! Why do you hate Jews so much?

YOu are a simpleton, with an "in the joint" view of the world that is a bit warped and definately not coherent with the reality that is.

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

Israel does belong in the middle east it is their birth place just like iran , iraq, syria and all the rest they are middle eastern decent. The problem is people do not want to accept them there because they do not believe the same as them. It is lack of tolerance on all sides.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

assbestos:

That I was "in the joint" in no way impaired my ability to fashion a realistic world view. You might as well say Einstein was not fit to be a physicist because he worked in a patent office.

As what you post is largely drivel, you are not worthy of a response.

============================ And "It's A Beautiful Day" by Beautiful Day ============================

Christine Pennewell Davis 8 years, 6 months ago

seems like cman's day to get removed. ah well maybe you should word more carefully than all can see what you have to say not just "this comment......" keep trying they might let you stay on here for a full 24hrs.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

============================ and "Hell-bound Train," by Savoy Brown ============================

(Con-man probably watches Lawrence Welk on PBS, or listens to the best of Conway Twitty.)

==================================== and shouldn't forget: "Grand Hotel," by Procol Harum ====================================

ASBESTOS 8 years, 6 months ago

"Conservativeman using an extremely crude slang term for a female reproductive organ can not be considered advancement of any rational argument or statement intended to inform or amuse."

That is true, but your posts are purposely provacative and annoying. You misrepresent, obfuscate, and outright lie. Your methods of debate in fact are non existant.

You and Con man are 2 sides of the same coin and are both rude and abusive. You are both examples of yesterday's political debate and party allegiance at all costs. All of the Posts of YOU and CONMAN both rehash the past with no grasp on the future other than what set you off in the past. There is no establishment of where the higher ground on where agreement is. There is no place or space left FOR agreement. The only support here is for division. ANd from a Conservative (me, That is a TRue conservative ala AuH20)) looking at posts from liberals (observer, Xeno, HGA), I find that bass akwards and quite alarming.

There is NO future resolution, no common ground to be had, and no mutual beneficial plane to aspire to. It is in the dirt mudsligging. Yesterday's politic. The right and the left have both rendered themselves irrelevant and without any core values, nor committment to principal. It is just a poo fight, nothing more.

That is what I have learned of majority of posters here. They do not have one original thought. They first have to get their talking points from their hero, or other crap.

In this world of poo fight, facts and realities are meaningless. The only win is for ones own ego, for there is NOTHING in either YOUR or CONMAN's posts that holds benefit, promise, or contribution to the common good. There is NO substance nor moral center. There is no vision. The only emotion I see is obsession and false pride and hatred. I see very few posts looking for a betterment of the condition. (Remember this sometimes takes conflict in the world, and yes WAR.)

There is in the end not argument to find resloution, but only to denegrate and divide.

That is quite alarming coming from a community that is considered worldwide as being progressive, liberal, and usually forwardlooking. Thanks for blowing the cover.

xenophonschild 8 years, 6 months ago

Let the Jews and Muslims kill each other - good riddance to both of them.

For the local trog idiots, Israel has no great love for the United States. Your blind loyalty to them is as amusing as it is wrong.

The primary problem for Muslims is their religion. It is a vile entity, a disgrace to human dignity. They will not divest themselves of it, so they are doomed to annihilation, sooner or later.

How's that for substance?

======================================= Howlin' Wolf . . . and Canned Heat with John Lee Hooker =======================================

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