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Ohio - Crosby Stills Nash and Young
Don't people learn. What kind of decent human being would spray pepper spray on other people for protesting?
If the protesters suddenly turned violent, sure, pepper spray them. Otherwise, WTH, why you gonna pepper spray peaceful protestors??
Amen, I support the protests, but I also support the police and if they need pepperspray to ensure their safety, good for them.
If they are going to start spraying people just sitting down peacefully protesting, then let those lone police who abused their authority answer to their mistake.
I watched the video. This was no rogue officer doing the pepper spray. The guy was following orders. Right or wrong, he should be left alone.
"I was just following orders"
Hmm - sounds familiar.
Actually the orders were to pull the tents and to respect the protesters, specifically was told to avoid violence. The officer decided in the field, on his own.
I can't believe you even thought it was necessary to ask this question.
I came here to say this.
"Don't people learn. What kind of decent human being would spray pepper spray on other people for protesting?"
My old roommates back in the late '60's? Yup, they would be out drinkin' and if I was asleep when they got home . . .
Woke up once standing in the middle of Tennessee St. in my skivvies, snot and tears rollin' off my face.
Oh, wait. You said "decent".
"Innocent people?" The very name "Occupy" is a connotation for aggression.
You mean when the toilet door on an airliner says "occupied," it's an aggressive bowel movement?
How do you remove protesters? Or do some agree just let them stay where they are at for as long as they want? Just curious as I have no answer.....
pick them up and carry them off
Agreed in theory. But what if they refuse to break their arm chains-grips? Then you are pulling on people's arms and legs and dragging them because they are resisting. That causes injuries so then what?
I agree. They asked them more than once to move. Protesters refused. What are the police supposed to do? Count to three...Call the protesters by their first and middle names....Bozo Frances....move your butt now mister or no desert tonight...
Absolutely and totally agree..They made their point, now move out of the way. If I recall they were also warned they would be sprayed, they arrogantly sat there anyway.
Sooo...you're saying a couple of beefy police offers in riot geat can't remove a 120-lb. woman from linking arms with her friends? And then they aren't able to carry her to the police van? Sounds like they might need to find some cops who are in better physical condition.
Or maybe some college administrators who won't call in the cops because of students sitting on a sidewalk or setting up tents in the grass.
Pull the apart. The Cops are trained to do just that. But, do not use prolonged sprays of pepper gas directly into the face unless your obejct is to seriously injure. And, if your object is to seriously injure, then we have a serious problem of Cops declaring war on a peaceful protest. Have you or we learned nothing in the past 40 years?
Many of these protesters were later on television talking about their experience and looking healthy enough to continue their rant. I am much more concerned about the truly injured or elderly who couldn't get emergency/ ambulance service because of blockades such as this one, concerned for those who couldn't get through to classes or jobs because of these street dwellers who are somehow confused into thinking they represent most Americans by sitting on their butts.
Well, I am certain of one thing, they surely do not represent you and I would also bet that they would not want to. Injured or elderly? They were on a sidewalk with lots of lawn on both sides. Uh, walk around? Injured or elderly? What?
Billbodiggens....it is a well known fact that the protesters are costing communities a lot of money and resources that are also needed elsewhere. A sidewalk is a right of way intended for all the public to use and they cannot occupy it. No one should have to "walk around" simply because a bunch of confused kids have planted themselves where they don't belong. And I know you are smart enough to know exactly what I meant...any medical emergency needs requiring the streets to be clear in this area would have been congested by the sitting presence and crowd.
unfortunatatly, they do represent a very large contingent of this country,,,,you know, the millions who DO sit on their butts all day and do nothing.
I hear you topjayhawk
I hear you topJyhk, and you sound desperate, scared. Your strange need to denigrate the protesters is not really argument on the issues. You have said don't bring up the Bush tax cuts , that is in the past. No they are not.
The bush tax cuts have bloated the deficit, t I don't care if you are ugly, old, young, shaved or bearded, just speak straight and don't palm off crooked politics as a working policy.
In other "dude, I'm really angry" news: http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view/2011_1122speech_is_free_for_occupiers_alone/
Aw hell, it'll give 'em sumpin' to laugh about and tell their grandkids. By then they will have embellished it enough to seem like they really accomplished . . squat.
At first I thought the films were taken from the sixties and the protesters were for civil rights or against the war. It was the same thing. Some cops with a certain mind set will always, apparently, be around. Thugs with crisp uniforms.
I'd rather be outright beaten or pepper-sprayed than subject to the sickening, lying, underhanded southern-justice framing the KU cops are famous for! I l prefer my violence and hatred honest--none of the unconscious, kiss-to-kill bigots that populate KS for me.
Somebody's all cranky and needs a hug.
As opposed to what? Polite suggestions? Sure beats getting a bullet spray like the folks trying their own occupy movements in Egypt and Syria are getting.
We are so lucky to have the Police that don't shoot us as much ! Maybe we should shut up and enjoy our Free Freedoms. Who wants pizza? I'm hungry. You hungry?
Regulate your own industry, expect enormous profits.
agree elrond....stick to the subject unclean
gosh another tea who doesn't want to even talk about the issues involved in Occupy protests, calls them off topic, that is just stupid. What a consistent line, blame Obama for the economic condition, someone brings up '"Bush, and oh that is off topic, don't bring up Bush. The topic is blaming Obama for GOP failures. Lets stay on topic. The occupy protester points are not important and if they are, then it is not the GOP economic policies to blame. Talking your spin. is not the same as argument.
Pace you are WAY off base! and confused. Many, many of these supposed protesters are kids who are far too young to have a clue about injustice...haven't lived long enough to know much about anything. They are simply mimicking the 60's protests. I bet they watched old film footage about how to move their bodies and what words to speak..The above line of discussion was about the protester behaviors vs. police response not about political theories behind it. And in fact, I don't blame Obama and I'm not a lover of tea.
Goatalife, Well, one of us is off base and I gamble it is you. I don't remember voting on limiting the discussion not to include issues. You have a right to your feeling but you are just being silly.
I have talked to many of the different occupy people and you are missing some interesting and informed discussions. You are dreaming the kids, the adults, the workers, the elderly are just mimes of the 60's. The reality is quite different. Just saying young and students and dismissing them is unjust to the issues. You can dwell on denigrating the protesters but I prefer to consider the issues as core to the protests.
Pace I know who they are locally....been down there for at least an hour when they still had tents in the park. No one said a word to me, just ignored my presence. No literature, no attempt to educate, nothing...It was a joke. Nothing but sitting, smoking, and talking to each other. I recognized several of these folks confirming what I am saying, but thanks for your comment.
Oh, I didn't mean for you to go get a pamphlet. You should know the occupy movement is not just people in tents in South Park or tents on Wall street. I thank them. A lot of people who support OCCUPY are full timed employed, vets, unemployed, parents, students, even oldsters.
You might of been surprised if you had introduced yourself and spoke with some of the kids. It seems like you didn't, just stood back and acted like a lookie loo. I don't know of any formal pamphlets being given out. They don't seem to be offering simple solutions or naming a guy to fix it all. I think they have no responsibility to educate every buffoon who stares at them. You should be able to do some research.
You state, again, you think the economic issues should not be part of the conversation because of how you feel about the protesters. That is not clear argument to me, doesn't convince me, I think the issues are the most important part of the topic .Not who is protesting, kids, students, vets, unemployed, employed, parents, elderly, but what are they protesting about. It is silly to dismiss the issues because you think little of the protesters, or feel like if you can denigrate the protesters you can denigrate the issues.
War and Money, follow the money, honor the dead.
Problem with your theories are that they (protesters) supposedly protest with a message, and want others to listen, join in, respond to what they have to say. That is a good definition of protester. But when given an opportunity to actually say or do something, they (local protesters) do nothing. I place no legitimacy on those who seem to have no real message, and I certainly would not try and pull one out of them. You are confusing "support" of a common dissatisfaction with agreement to "protest" in this way. If that much support existed you would have hundreds of people joining in locally, that does not exist. And if these protesters twist words around as you do when they speak to others..it would come across as condescending, arrogant, and a real turn off to anything that might have been worthy of listening to. Wait....that is exactly what has and is happening!
You still don't want economic issues to be discussed in regard to Occupy protesters. because of how you feel about the protester. ? I still think those issues are more important to the discussion than your critique of how you feel about what the protesters wore or how you imagine they are mimes. Which is what you originally said. Now you change my words and yours to something else. Spin is not the same as discussion. I didn't twist, words. I am pretty plain spoken. You were the one that said, the issues were off topic, I said they weren't off topic. I think they are very much the main topic. I also don't care that you think they should not have freedom of expression or assembly because you denigrate them as not worthy.
The use of pepper spray when a person breaks the law is to protect the police in case the person breaking the law might somehow endanger the police. When someone is stopped for speeding, failure to yield, littering, jaywalking, breaking park curfew, any law or infraction of rule or policy, the police should pepper spray them, baton them, or even kill them if necessary. There is no need for a citizen review board, it places an undue burden on the officer in the field. The courts are not in the field, the citizen's review board is not in the field.
We should not second guess the use of force in a matter of these peaceful protests. The constitution should protect the police not these people. I don't care if they are the tea party or OWS or just a little old lady who is driving too slow. The law is the law. Spray them, move them along, keep the traffic moving. If an elected or appointed official wants the protest to end, for people to shut up, it should end, they should shut the heck up. It is disturbance of the peace. Plain and simple.
It's obvious to everyone that meter maids should hence forth be issued ninja gear. Plain and simple.
That's some great satire you've written there.
I heartily approve this snark.
Almost all the lines were taken from comments actually made from a variety of media discussions on the subject. The exception was the old lady going too slow, that was made by a poster blasting an elderly lady when she was unable to cross the street before the light turned. He also thought she should not cross the street, because he had to wait for her.
Funny, you calling protesters fleabaggers, sounds like teabaggers. good one.
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Absolutely. And they should also use pepper spray on people who don't use their turn signals.
I think that is too harsh, a simple slap with the baton would be enough.
Rubber bullets at tailgaters is completely warranted.
Everyone bitches about lethal force being used, then they bitch about non-lethal force. I damned well guarantee you the first time a cop pepper sprays someone attacking them, they will sing the praises of pepper spray.
But, since it is just sooooo horrible, I guess the civilian version, which is only .02 less in intensity than police issue, needs to be removed from the shelves. What's that? What about people fending off a rapist, you say? If it is cruel and inhumane for a police officer to use it, then it is cruel and inhumane for ANYONE to use it. Claiming anything, and I mean ANYTHING else, is hypocrisy in so many directions it's not even funny.
Speaking of not even funny, What if this "Everyone" you imagine is no one?
Missing some very important distinctions there.
Use of force in self-defense is one thing, and justified, both legally (up to a point - you can't escalate the violence, which is interesting) and morally.
Use of force in other situations is a much less clear situation.
A better way to dispurse a crowd is to ignore it. If a protest goes unheard does it really exist? Eventually protesters will get bored and go home if no one comes to see them. No harm, no foul.
If a problem goes unheard, it still exists. Crowds will come and go. The problem is not The Crowd. Harm and fouls summoned the crowd. You can't go home if your home is gone.
I voted yes, but I do not agree with the hosing down of sitting protestors. I was very angry when I saw it on tv. The protestors should have been arrested, by pulling them up and handcuffing them. It appeared to be a sit down type of protest at the time. Of course, the hosing down of the protestors could be shown out of context. I would very much like to know what happened before and after that event. Peace officers are taught to use the least amount of force necessary to get the job done, then escalate levels of force as needed. I think that officer lost control when he did that, unless there are things that we are not being told. If he did, it makes all peace officers look bad.
How about everyone do a Google image search of "fire hose civil rights" and tell me what you see.
Crop dusters would be more efficient at dispersing pepper spray.
Class clown. I was just thinking that, call in an air strike. Remember there are very few problems that can't be cured with the use of high explosives :) for all you serious types, just kidding............
Hooligan_016 (anonymous) says…
How about everyone do a Google image search of "fire hose civil rights" and tell me what you see.
November 23, 2011 at 11:54 a.m.
Is that your way of saying the Occupy people need a bath?
Clever, but far from it.
The constant refrain of denigrating the protesters is such an old hat trick. Look here, don't look at the facts. Don't examine the economics. Is congress corrupt? Should some Wall Street and Banks officials go to prison? Follow the money, it is sitting in fat portfolios, sent out in envelopes marked save the economy, directly to those that broke it. We are discussing how brutal do we get to be to those crying "look behind the curtain.". Peaceful protest should not just be tolerated, the issues should be on the table for discussion.
Unfortunately the arguments are only as strong as those who deliver them, and so far that has been fairly ineffective locally. Living here all my life and asking hundreds of people for an opinion on local protests, most people have no idea what I am talking about or who they even are. I agree that things are difficult, jobs are hard to find, people are losing their homes, the rich are getting richer, etc. The problem is the approach being used to file those complaints is often being perceived as nothing more than a big tempter tantrum. I think it would be beneficial for those who want effect protesting to listen to how they are being received and make some changes, just saying.
If you recognize there are problems and you have ideas to articulate them, please do so. I would thank you. If you have a suggestion on actions people should take, I will listen. I have written to our senators and congresspersons. The responses from them have been a bit disheartening, and seems to have resulted in some odd robot calls for money. But i do think they should hear from the people they are suppose to represent. I do think letters to representatives do matter. I do these letters with little hope they will be considered. but I think it is one of my duties. I think more needs to be done. I appreciate the protesters and pray they won't be beaten, sprayed, or killed. I pray also they stay nonviolent.
I respect the right of free speech and right of free assembly.
Saw a great macro meme today. Picture of a WBC protest. Caption says, "20 years of this s**t and no pepper spray. What's wrong with this?"
"Should pepper spray be used to deal with Occupy protesters?" If the situation dictates. And in the case of UC Davis it clearly did not.
Tea Party shows up carrying weapons and openly talking about insurrection: 24-7 media coverage, total hijack of an entire political party , and setting the agenda for every legislative process for 2 years.
Unarmed Occupiers start getting people questioning why our government and economy both are a rigged system to benefit the extremely wealthy?
In come the riot cops.
All the born wackos and aggressive street harassers of Lawrence who think they are authorized to approach and mess with complete strangers, meanwhile robbing other people of any decent sense of safety in public space, deserve a fate worse than pepper spray. Who would train up aggressive no-nothings to dominate and terrify others with their frighteningly ignorant demand to be recognized as "helpful."? If someone you approach says they feel messed with I think you better listen. No one incapable of basic listening skills has any ability to help. The two skills kind of go together. Dig? It's others' call if you're welcome in their lives, blind, hateful harassers. Some people may just happen to be on "nut diet," and so not welcome idiots to approach them.
"Some people may just happen to be on "nut diet," and so not welcome idiots to approach them."
After your posting history, I find this comment hilarious.
It's obvious that the 55 % who voted no also think we should just rip up the Bill of Rights. Who cares about their freedom anymore?!
Told the kids to get up from in front of the TV and get ready to go to the relatives for Thanksgiving. They ignored me so I pepper sprayed them
Husband was watching a football game last night and the phone rang four times. He wouldn't answer it so I pepper sprayed him.
I told the dog to hurry up with his business and he kept running around sniffing trees and tires. So I pepper sprayed him.
My kid's teacher told the kids to get out their math books. Little Kevin was day dreaming out the window and didn't hear her. So she pepper sprayed him.
Darn crowd wouldn't get out of my way on Black Friday. So I pepper sprayed them.
Megyn Kelly claimed on Bill O'Reilly's show that pepper spray is a "food product". She's been challenged to drink a quart of it.
I suggest you might look into a little document called The Constitution -- ever heard of Freedom of Assembly? Freedom of Speech? Or perhaps The Right to Petition Government for Redress of Grievances?
Police instructions do not trump the Constitution, genius.
You might reread the First Amendment to find the term "peaceably assemble". The Lord of the Flies anarchy being practiced at many "dude, I'm really angry" camps don't fit that definition.
The police, it seems were ignoring a court decision that pepper spray should not be used on sitting protester locking arms. Inappropriate.
The orders were to remove the tents and avoid violence against the protesters.
I think you are too lenient. We must be proactive. I thought our dog, was thinking of barking too loud, so I pepper sprayed down the throat.,
Most of any arguments for protesting in this way are wasted words. The real heroes in this tough economic situation are the volunteer workers and dedicated warm-hearted people who actually DO something. They volunteer their hands and backs, they give of what little money they have, they share warm meals, they help rehab run down homes and neighborhoods, they provide a listening ear and a help with children...and on and on and on. What they DO NOT do is trespass, steal signs, chant and scream at places where they are not welcome, block sidewalks and roadways, sit for hours holding signs in public places, reset tents in places when they have been asked to move due to sanitary and safety issues, and on and on and on.
So you are saying the young people, the teachers, the librarians, the vets, the elderly, the homeless, the unemployed should not protest because you think they should volunteer for the tasks on your job list. To me you sound like a yahoo who is always complaining that the volunteers are doing the wrong jobs.
I have volunteered at all those tasks, but none of those jobs address the political and economic issues. You think by me being a nice volunteer, giving a loaf of breadm when a job is needed is the easiest and quietest way to go. You think there shouldn't be any protests. If you think the government economic policies and reality is not or is Ok, Do nothing. There your problem is solved. Your do nothing plan is working, all the way down the drain.
I worry about the protesters, I think being arrested is not good for their future, being beaten or pepper sprayed is not good for their well being. I appreciate their time and courage. You dismiss how dangerous peaceful protest can be, I don't. Nor do I dismiss the issues they are protesting. You seem to be eager to dismiss the issues and the protesters, you are running around crying hysterically, Don't protest, you have long hair, you are dirty, you are wrong, nothing will ever change. Well actually nothing stays the same. You are saying we should man the soup kitchens,we even have to fight for the right to have soup kitchens. I think we have the duty to fight for jobs. Labor is not the economic villain. What a stupid argument on economic conditions. You say some of the people have a hair cut you don't like, so let's just ignore the message.
You should show support for Occupy. If you think it should be shown in a different way. Suggest it, I will hear out.
I said nothing about hair or bathing at all..Sounds like you are feeling a great deal of insecurity and are trying to make this a personal issue about appearance. Those feelings are unfortunate, but have nothing at all to do with my comments. Spin, spin, spin.
You are the one who denigrated the protesters, you seem to think volunteering at soup kitchens, etc would cure the economic corruption of Congress?
Wall Street grabbings
And trying to avoid the hobo stabbings
On my iPhone
With my last tweet
Jews on Wall Street
Please don't worry
'Cause my Guy Fawkes mask repels tuberculosis
We are saving
This whole nation
With some squad car
We went marching
And got applauded by the Nazi Party
There's a raping
Every day now
Some are straight and
Some are gay now
In the food tent over by the Ben & Jerry's ..."
I say let em do what they want, I have to get to work to make a living....
I’m talkin Power to the people, but don't be so uptight
It's not criminal violence I'm trying to incite
But if you don't see a problem then you don't know where to look
check your federal reserve appointed-politician-crook
interest-free bailout loans but only wealthy need apply
So for the other 99% it's time to OCCUPY!
(Smash It Grab It OCCUPY...the video!)
Not until they act like they are going to hurt someone of Authority, otherwise no. Leave these people alone and let them express themselves. They have the right to, they along with the rest of us have been ripped off by the Government for over 30 years.
bolsy, should they be allowed to hurt each other? Or innocent by-standers?
Just say no to pepper spray.
Very very happy to see most the big encampments are being taken down by their local authorities. The tent cities look nasty, police can't work fast enough in my opinion.
There is nothing worse for peace and order than citizens protesting, using those pesky civil rights. How irritating. Sure people died and fought for those rights, but now, it is different. Trust the feds.
In other news about criminals: http://bigjournalism.com/jjmnolte/2011/10/28/occupywallstreet-the-rap-sheet-so-far/
I'll just bet that if all us hard working tax payers showed up to picket our local welfare office there would be no objection to the use of pepper spray!
German Shepherd police dogs would be abetter choice...
Absolutely not. Too much chance of missing. Batons, dogs, fire hoses and riot guns.
I think a flame thrower would be more appropriate than pepper spray.
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