Archive for Tuesday, October 11, 2016

KU seeks to require holsters, other safety measures for guns on campus

University submitted draft weapons policy to Regents this week

KU students visit and pass between classes outside of Wescoe Hall and across Jayhawk Boulevard from Strong Hall on Friday, Feb. 6, 2015.

KU students visit and pass between classes outside of Wescoe Hall and across Jayhawk Boulevard from Strong Hall on Friday, Feb. 6, 2015.

October 11, 2016

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Anyone carrying a concealed handgun into a building at the University of Kansas must have the firearm in a holster with the safety on, according to a draft weapons policy KU submitted this week to the Kansas Board of Regents.

Among other safety rules in the policy: People carrying concealed handguns elsewhere on campus must keep them on their person at all times — including always wearing or holding purses or backpacks with guns inside.

Under the Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act, state universities must allow lawful concealed carry of handguns on their campuses beginning in July 2017. The law allows universities to prohibit guns in buildings or areas with adequate security measures at public entrances to ensure no guns get in, such as metal detectors and guards.

The Regents adopted a statewide policy to account for the new law, and individual universities are now preparing their own respective policies — if only slightly more detailed than the Regents' policy.

The Regents are scheduled to discuss KU’s draft policy in committee in November, according to a campus message from KU Chancellor Bernadette Gray-Little. She said once the Regents approve KU’s policy the university community will get more information and training as July 2017 approaches.

“Our goal was to create a university-wide policy that emphasizes the safety of our campuses, creates a setting conducive to learning, teaching and research, and is consistent with state law,” Gray-Little said in the message. “...I believe we’ve created the best possible policy for KU.”

KU committees charged with developing implementation procedures tailored specifically for different campuses are still at work, Gray-Little said.

No guns signs are posted on a side door of KU's Art and Design Building, as well as other buildings on campus, pictured in May 2015.

No guns signs are posted on a side door of KU's Art and Design Building, as well as other buildings on campus, pictured in May 2015.

So far KU has not released a list of which, if any, buildings, areas or events where it plans to install adequate security measures to prohibit guns.

Other key points in KU’s draft policy:

• Holsters must completely cover the gun’s trigger area and have sufficient tension to keep the gun in the holster “even when subjected to unexpected jostling.”

• Semiautomatic guns must be carried without a chambered round of ammunition, and revolvers must be carried with the hammer resting on an empty cylinder.

• No one “shall use the fact of possibility that he or she is carrying a concealed weapon with the intent to intimidate another person except in defense of self or others.”

• Regents policy applies to everyone on campus, including requirements that guns stored in cars must be hidden from view and that guns in residence halls must be contained in secure storage devices when not on the person of the carrier.

• Statewide gun laws also apply to everyone on campus, including statutes requiring concealed carriers to be at least 21 and not under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

• Open carry of any firearm is still prohibited on campus.

KU’s draft policy also discusses a more obscure part of the Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act that allows universities to prohibit some people from carrying guns into “restricted access” areas.

KU’s policy defines those as areas accessible only to authorized personnel by key, key-card or code.

Non-employees who don’t have the key or code would have to be pre-screened to enter restricted access areas, according to KU’s draft policy. The process would require a notarized statement with the person’s acknowledgement that weapons are prohibited in restricted access areas, as well as a photo ID card showing they’ve been authorized entry.

It’s unclear what areas of campus would fall under that category.

KU’s office of general counsel referred questions to the office of public affairs, which did not respond Tuesday afternoon.

Contact KU and higher ed reporter Sara Shepherd
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Comments

Bob Smith 1 year, 2 months ago

"...Anyone carrying a concealed handgun into a building at the University of Kansas must have the firearm in a holster with the safety on..." Not all firearms have manual safeties. Such as the vast majority of revolvers and the very popular Glock automatics.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 1 year, 2 months ago

What do you have against holsters? Not macho enough for you?

Bob Smith 1 year, 2 months ago

Once again, you wildly misinterpret a post and come to a ridiculous conclusion. My post was about safeties, not holsters. I quoted the sentence for context.

Bill Turner 1 year, 1 month ago

Bob is just stating a plain and simple fact: Not all firearms have manual safeties. The odd requirement to me is that a semi-automatic must be carried without a round in the chamber. This goes against concealed weapon training.

Mike Green 1 year, 1 month ago

The US military would not allow you to enter a mess hall in Iraq with a chambered round - -

John Kyle 1 year, 1 month ago

"Not all firearms have manual safeties". Then don't bring that gun to campus.

Mark Crist 1 year, 1 month ago

I would disagree with you Bob.  The Glock safety is on at all times and is switched to the fire position by the trigger finger.  One has but to observe Col. Cooper's third rule, "Keep your finger off the trigger till the sights are on the target."

Bob Smith 1 year, 2 months ago

BTW, since the invention of the transfer bar safety, it has been unnecessary to leave an empty cylinder in a revolver for safety reasons. This proposed regulation is what you get when people who know nothing about firearms try to control them.

Bob Summers 1 year, 1 month ago

Bob

Would you feel more better macho on campus with this set up? With or without a shirt.

Pete Kennamore 1 year, 1 month ago

Your post is a pointless personal attack lacking any substantive perspective on the topic at hand.

Charles L. Bloss, Jr. 1 year, 1 month ago

I have no plans to ever go onto the KU campus. If I did, I would not obey the ridiculous guidelines set forth in this article. What good is a semi-auto pistol without a round in the chamber. I have never carried a semi-auto pistol like that. Why have the safety on when there is no round in the chamber? I have never carried a revolver with an empty chamber, either. People carry firearms for self defense. Both of these stupid ideas would cause a delay in the firearm functioning properly, which could cost someone their life. KU is trying to get around the intent of the law, which is carrying a loaded firearm for self defense. As dumb as these guidelines are I am surprised that they don't require the firearm be unloaded. This is a prime example of what happens when a bunch of liberals, without knowledge of how firearms function, try and regulate them. I am a retired peace officer. I have carried the same .45 pistol for over twenty five years. It is a DA/SA pistol, which means it is as safe to carry loaded, with the safety off, as is a revolver. People who know anything about guns know this. I expect that the legislature will have to make another law depriving universities of the ability to micro manage how firearms are to be carried, and to add language to make sure they do not try and work around the intent of the law.

Gene Douglas 1 year, 1 month ago

Charles, thank you for your service....I would suggest, however, that the holster rule (looks like it was specifically written for glock BTW) is a good one for a glock, one in the pipe. (380's are becoming wildly popular). I think you would agree since of the most recent, rather rare, advent of "glock leg", in even law enforcement circles, has developed. Another recent after-market safety for the glock is a pin-trigger assembly safety which in addition to the already glock trigger safety makes it double secure and reasonably quick to deploy....just saying

Chris Bohling 1 year, 1 month ago

Right, because the police will be able to spot a person carrying a concealed revolver with the hammer resting on a loaded cylinder.

John Kyle 1 year, 1 month ago

Of course not, but if you are found to be carrying one then you would be in violation of campus policy.

Sara Shepherd 1 year, 1 month ago

Those of you on this thread with knowledge of handgun anatomy might be interested to read the full draft policy. It has a little more detail on holsters, safeties, etc. than I included in my story. Here's the link: http://publicaffairs.ku.edu/sites/publicaffairs.ku.edu/files/docs/DRAFT%20-%20KU%20Weapons%20Policy%20-%2010-10-2016.pdf — Sara Shepherd, LJW

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

The revolver bit is still amazingly dumb. At least the policy does address automatics without an external safety. Many high quality concealed carry holsters do not enclose the entire trigger guard of a handgun.

John Kyle 1 year, 1 month ago

"Many high quality concealed carry holsters do not enclose the entire trigger guard of a handgun". Then purchase one that does.

Helen Thomas 1 year, 1 month ago

Why? There's nothing wrong with the ones that don't.

Bill Turner 1 year, 1 month ago

The semi-auto bit is also amazingly dumb. The M1911 (a gun designed in 1911) is a wildly popular semi-auto that was DESIGNED to be carried with a round in the chamber, "cocked and locked" (hammer in the firing position, manual safety on). It has been carried in such a way for the past 115 years by military, police, and plain citizens everywhere without incident.

Amy Varoli Elliott 1 year, 1 month ago

Actually in the Military when in a garrison environment (non-war environment) you are taught to carry the gun with a magazine in but no round chambered.

Helen Thomas 1 year, 1 month ago

Here we go. Gun rules being written by people who know nothing about guns. Modern revolvers are specifically designed so that the cartridge under the hammer cannot be fired accidentally and forcing users to keep an empty chamber under the hammer accomplishes nothing in terms of safety. Semi-autos are designed to be carried with a round IN the chamber. A person being attacked may not have two hands available to jack the slide and charge the pistol. These rules are nothing but thinly veiled harassment of gun owners.

John Kyle 1 year, 1 month ago

How do you know this? These seem to be common sense rules designed to insure the safety of others from accidental discharge of a weapon or the loss of a gun by leaving your backpack somewhere. Gun ownership is a responsibility, not just a right. If you are carrying a gun into a public situation you should already be keeping the safety of others in mind.

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

You keep saying "common sense". I do not think that means what you think it means.

Bill Turner 1 year, 1 month ago

How do we know this? Simple: most experienced gun owners are aware of the design features of expensive equipment that they own (also, 8 hours of training to obtain a KS concealed carry permit). You're right, gun ownership is a responsibility, and knowing how your gun works, what safety features are included, and how to safely operate it are part of that responsibility. A gun that is made today is not like one that was made in 1875 - the technology has evolved and the means of keeping a gun safe have evolved as well. The "common sense rules" of carrying guns with empty chambers as proposed here are outdated and only show knowledgeable gun owners that the people making up the rules have no experience and don't know what they're doing.

Brendon Allen 1 year, 1 month ago

My understanding is the law was changed this year to not require a permit to concealed carry and to not require a class of any kind. Did I get that wrong?

Bill Turner 1 year, 1 month ago

It depends. You no longer need to take the class to carry a concealed weapon in Kansas. There is still a concealed carry permit available from the state of Kansas that will allow you to carry concealed weapons in other states that have reciprocity agreements with Kansas. That permit still requires the 8 hour training course.

Richard Wright 1 year, 1 month ago

I would challenge Mr. Kyle to show me a double action revolver made in the last 25 years and sold in the U.S. that doesn't have a transfer bar, making it safe to carry all chambers loaded. As far as semi-autos go, striker-fired pistols such as the Glock and the rest of the poly-pistols on the market don't seem to be affected by dropping them to the point of having an accidental discharge. Even hammer fired semi-autos have to be in relatively bad condition for their safeties to fail and discharge when dropped. And really, what moron carries a gun other than in a holster? Carrying it loose in a pocket is a terrible plan since pocket garbage can end up in the muzzle or even further down the bore. And anyone that has any sense knows that a trigger that leaves the trigger exposed is a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot, leg, or anything else that doesn't stand up well to gunfire. These "guidelines" were either written by someone that knows nothing on the subject, or by a committee of lawyers.

Rick Masters 1 year, 1 month ago

Let's get retro: Do the new guidelines allow for trebuchets?

Calvin Anders 1 year, 1 month ago

This is dumb. The University should not be trying to mitigate the problem created by lawmakers. KU and other schools should just let the wild west show go on. Holsters and safeties and requiring those reckless and stupid enough to want to carry to have direct control over the firearm will have only a very limited impact on things getting out of control. And in the event of a campus shooting or some sort of spontaneous shoot out, law makers are likely to point to school policy when looking to avoid responsibility. The school policy should be simple. It should just encourage all students to thank their state legislature for the exciting adventure they face in seeking higher education.

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

Remember before concealed carry was legal in Kansas and all the Chicken Little people were predicting wild west shootouts between permit holders over parking places and other trivial incidents? Never really happened, did it?

Kristine Matlock 1 year, 1 month ago

I also remember many talking about how violent crime would go down because criminals wouldn't know who was carrying. Funny, didn't happen. Rates have pretty much stayed the same. Since no permit required for conceal carry went into effect, rates have gone up. You make think you're safer, but you aren't. Now we get to deal with any idiot that wants to carry a gun and doesn't have to learn how to use it properly. Yea KS!

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/kncrime.htm

http://news.stanford.edu/2014/11/14/donohue-guns-study-111414/

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

Violent crime is going up in Democratic controlled hell holes like Chicago. In most of the country, it is down.

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

Kansas state law prohibits towns and cities from passing firearms laws that are more restrictive than the current state-level laws. Would this also apply to KU?

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

While some would disagree- During my deployments to Iraq, while we were on base/camp/post, we were required to carry our weapons without a round in the chamber.

Surely if we can carry that way in a war zone then we can also get by with the same rule on a college campus.

Justin Hoffman 1 year, 1 month ago

I suppose you're of the ilk that believes the bad guy will pause his attack while the young lady chambers a round. How foolish of you. Walking around a secure military base is completely different from a young woman walking home from class on a dark campus. You should educate yourself on the difference.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

There's no such thing as a "secure" military base in a war zone.

Tell my fellow servicemembers who died ON military installations by direct attacks that their base was "secure".

Like the 9 who died in Kabul in April 2011, or the 6 who died in December 2015. I'm sure they'd love to hear your thoughts about them being on a "secure military base" and it being different (meaning safer) than walking on a college campus in the U.S.

Justin Hoffman 1 year, 1 month ago

I'm aware of the sacrifices these men and woman have made. I'm also well aware of attacks on military bases, however the likelihood is VERY low. You want to swap statistics on the likelihood of being attacked late at night on a college campus versus a military base? I'm ready when you are, just say go.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Lay it on me, and be sure to compare apples to apples. If you're going to include sexual assaults on campuses you need to include it for military installations in a war zone.

Justin Hoffman 1 year, 1 month ago

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Violent-Attacks-Have-Risen-on/65159/

Can you show me over 200 deaths on military bases during this same time period? Have a nice day!

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

How many college campuses are there as opposed to u.s. military bases in a war zone? See you're not comparing apples to apples.

There are 4140 college campuses with roughly 17.5 million students.

There were roughly 50 bases with about 25K in Afghanistan and 150K in Iraq in the 2006 timeframe.

Maybe we compare like populations next time, m'kay?

Nice try though.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

"Can you show me over 200 deaths on military bases during this same time period? Have a nice day!"

Khe sahn alone (this was during the same period of your article 1900-2009) there was 354 U.S.. military members killed on attacks on a U.S. base in a war zone.

354 on ONE base in ONE year as opposed to your 272 lethal or potentially lethal attacks over a 109 year period on 4000+ college campuses.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

How about the 3600 U.S. KIA in the Tet Offensive?

Ya know, when the NV attacked u.s. military bases during the Tet holiday?

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Also you can take you supposing and shove it. I conceal carry daily, I know what it takes to chamber a round. Not very difficult. If a woman is being physically kept from chambering a round, chances are she's also being physically kept from removing that weapon from her purse, or backpack, or ankle holster, etc.

Justin Hoffman 1 year, 1 month ago

You have a lot to learn about combat carry and conceal carry. The military short changed you on this training. Very disappointing.

Amy Varoli Elliott 1 year, 1 month ago

What is your training and combat experience justice, and please don't use your video game experience

Mike Riner 1 year, 1 month ago

I'd bet you conceal without benefit of formal training. Unless you consider your military experience the training you need. Any concealed carry instructor in Kansas (and pretty much everywhere else) will tell you to keep a round in the chamber of your handgun, otherwise it's not really loaded. If someone attacks you, things happen very fast and you don't have time to manipulate your weapon to chamber a round

Barb Gordon 1 year, 1 month ago

Justin, I think what you actually meant to type was, "Thank you for your service." And then you meant to shut up and silently pray to Jesus that you never will never need to know what you're talking about on this topic.

Helen Thomas 1 year, 1 month ago

No, actually we can't. A civilian who carries ONLY a handgun has to carry it in a higher state of combat readiness than you did in a base camp surrounded by your comrades. A pistol with an empty chamber is nothing more than a short and highly ineffective club.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Ok, spoken like someone who has never been in a war zone.

You're telling me military bases in Afghanistan and Iraq are "safer" than a college campus in the U.S.

Holy cow.

Helen Thomas 1 year, 1 month ago

A military base ANYWHERE is way safer than a college campus in the US. People on a military base are equipped to defend themselves. The majority of college students are forbidden that right.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Umm... no we are not. We're not allowed to carry on base/post/camp unless IN A WAR ZONE.

Go take a drive to Ft Leavenworth. Tell me what the signs outside the gate says. I'll give you a hint. It has a pistol with a big red circle and a line through it.

Helen Thomas 1 year, 1 month ago

Ok, Jim, I'll bite. Explain the technique I'm supposed to use to fight off a rapist with one hand while chambering a round in my defense gun with the other hand.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Tell me your technique for pulling you firearm out of your backpack or purse with one hand while fighting off a rapist with the other.

Helen Thomas 1 year, 1 month ago

What's that got to do with it? I carry in a holster and draw with ONE hand. Answer my question.

Justin Hoffman 1 year, 1 month ago

You're right Helen. Even in the most dangerous war zones bases are rarely attacked. Go just a few miles from base and it's a different story. Bases are very safe places to be when compared to a dark college campus.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Every campus I've been to has lights on the sidewalks. Rarely saw any street lights let alone lights illuminating walking paths on the military installations I was at in Iraq.

So if you want to paint a picture, paint it accurately.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

You make it seem like there's a shooting every day on a college campus... lol

Justin Hoffman 1 year, 1 month ago

I'm waiting for his answer to you too. It should be entertaining.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Sill waiting for both of your answers...

I doubt it'll be entertaining though.

Do I DISAGREE that it would be easier to just be able to carry with a chambered round? No. I do think that would be easier.

However, I also see KU's view where they're trying to balance reducing the chances of accidental discharges with the potential for a violent attack.

This seems like a compromise both sides should be able to live with.

Amy Varoli Elliott 1 year, 1 month ago

I think you guys (Justin and Helen) need to just stay in the safety of your home, it is clear you are too paranoid to be in the outside world.

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

The proposed KU rules violate the intent of the law authorizing concealed carry. Not much of a compromise.

Mike Riner 1 year, 1 month ago

Jim, do you suppose it's remotely possible that the US Military is wrong in requiring empty chambers under the hammer of an issued pistol? Do you think the Military is wrong in disarming soldiers on a military base? And do you suppose that what the Military chooses to make policy is not necessarily good for non military folks-which would include anyone who comes onto the KU campus? I would never ever carry a firearm with an empty chamber. That is essentially an UNLOADED firearm. Period. If you wish to handicap yourself by carrying an UNLOADED firearm, that is surely your right. But it's not the way I would prefer to defend myself.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

I never said I agreed with that rule, just that I understood why (to mitigate the potential of an accidental discharge while not outside the wire). I believe that if that is an acceptable compromise in a war zone, then surely it could also be an acceptable compromise on a college campus.

Mark Crist 1 year, 1 month ago

In the military, you consent to place your civil liberties on hold and to submit to the lawful orders of your Commander.  And your Commander is responsible for the actions of all he Commands.  So there are often rules to mitigate things that can negatively affect his command, and in the end his next evaluation.
For example, in Iraq and Afghanistan, there is the infamous General Order 1, which among other things requires soldiers to abstain from alcohol and sex.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Any you don't believe that the chancellor will be held responsible for the actions of the students if there's a negligent discharge on campus in which someone gets injured or killed?

I believe university campuses also have rules regarding their students to help mitigate things that can negatively affect the environment.

Justin Hoffman 1 year, 1 month ago

Jim started an argument and lost. We should leave him alone to reflect on defeat.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

lol

I saw you avoided responding to your declaration that military bases in war zones were safer than college campuses after realizing just how patently stupid that made you look.

Bob Summers 1 year, 1 month ago

It would have been nice if soldiers had rounds chambered in 2009 at Fort Hood.

Maybe one of them could have stopped the Terrorist from killing so many.

Jim Slade 1 year, 1 month ago

Soldiers, other than Hasan, had nothing on them in which to chamber a round.

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

That made things all the better for Hasan.

Dustyn Polk 1 year, 1 month ago

"In this state," he said, "there are two hundred and thirty-six thousand blacks, and there are many in several other states. But there are few or none in the Northern States.... May Congress not say, that every black man must fight? Did we not see a little of this last war? We were not so hard pushed as to make emancipation general; but acts of Assembly passed that every slave who would go to the army should be free."

Patrick Henry, arguing for protection of Southern militias from being placed under Congressional control, 1788

Kind of heart warming watching entitled white men arguing for a right that was created for the sole purpose of preserving slavery from abolitionist parties in the North.

Granted, this 'debate' is taking place in a state that says I, as a free person, am entitled to a gun in public, but I cannot legally buy a throwing star, so... shrug

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 1 year, 1 month ago

Chamber or no chamber. It doesn't matter, because it's not required to have training anyway, so both are dangerous.

No one has even mentioned the stupidity of carrying a gun without a holster. Of course, that would be protested too, because it would mean that you were trying to tell gun owners what to do, and the NRA and their supporters just won't stand for it. I mean that would mean that there would be a well regulated militia, um oh wait.

And speaking of a well regulating militias, The Crusaders are getting regulated for breaking the law. Of course, now we have to feed their sorry behinds for the rest of their lives. And I want to know about any other members. Are they being investigated? I want to see a list of these jerks.

Bob Smith 1 year, 1 month ago

"Chamber or no chamber. It doesn't matter, because it's not required to have training anyway, so both are dangerous..." Could you be so kind as to parse that into coherent English? Do the two "it"s in the second sentence refer to people, places or things?

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