The book of Job is the oldest book in the Bible.

"Job was faithful and good - the story of Job in the Bible is a horrifying one, in which God allows Satan to visit all sorts of horrible things on him, in order to win a bet.

It's a very strange story, and paints a rather unpalatable version of God."

This account of Job gives a very true and palatable version of God if it is properly understood. God is always good. Satan is not all knowing and has been defeated by Jesus when He went and died on the cross (redeeming believers), and was raised again from the dead on the 3rd day. Satan (formerly Lucifer) is a fallen angel. He did not know what authority he had been given in the earth (from Adam's sin in the Garden of Eden). Satan didn't like how God was blessing Job, and said that if God would withdraw his blessing on Job, that Job would curse God. Job did not love God just because God blessed him. Satan is the one that brought the trouble and illness on Job, once he discovered the authority he had stolen from Adam. God is the one that helps, heals and blesses Job in the end, giving Job double what he had before the Satanic attack. We learn that Satan is the one behind most of the troubles in this world by convincing people to misuse their words (authority) and disobey God's Word, so that people oppose themselves, removing God's blessing on them. Satan is the devil and the "God of this world" today. His lease from Adam is just about to expire. We are seeing a last attempt to create a global government today to resist Jesus (Word of God) from reining and ruling the earth at the expiration of the lease, for a thousand years of world peace and blessing.

The central question in the story for me is why God would go along with that wager with Satan - doesn't seem very loving to me.

God could easily have said no, I won't let you torment one of my faithful creatures like that, right?

I don't think you should take the stories in the Old Testament literally.

Look for the message and the meaning but don't get hung up on the details. I look at at as a parent try to explain things to a young child who is yet unable to grasp higher level concepts

What does that mean exactly?

The message is that God allows Satan to torment one of his most faithful creatures to prove a point. Hardly a portrayal of a loving God.

Also, it's an odd portrayal of God and Satan, and their power. If God is all powerful, then Satan doesn't have a chance, and God can/should simply stop him from tormenting Job.

The other message that some seem to get is that one should have unwavering faith in God even if he torments you, or allows you to be tormented. I'd say that's a little masochistic or something like that.

Perhaps the point of the story is an attempt to understand how bad things happen, given the belief in a loving and powerful God. But that's a question without a very good answer, and the "answer" in Job is one of the least convincing to me.

"Also, it's an odd portrayal of God and Satan, and their power. If God is all powerful, then Satan doesn't have a chance, and God can/should simply stop him from tormenting Job."

While God is all powerful, He is also righteous and just and perfect. He does not just "throw his power around", like we would like for Him to do at times. God respects the laws and agreements and operates with perfection. God is no respecter of persons. Satan legally had the authority given to him by Adam, when he sinned, and a lease on the earth, so he had the authority to be in the earth. (But ultimately God owns the earth and all that is in it). Satan in effect became "the God of this world". God's ways are higher than our ways. We like to think of ourselves as a judge, and always right in our own eyes, but we need to remember that God is the Supreme righteous Judge of all. He is always right and never, ever, makes a mistake. Other beings make mistakes (like Satan, he made a big mistake, thinking he can elevate himself to be higher than God, (pride) but God will use his evil character as an example of what not to be to others, and to try people's hearts to see if they are a son of Satan or a Son of God). We need to learn why God does what He does and learn from it. Then we can see how magnificent and great that He really is. He's God, and as God, the boss, and is never wrong by any measure. He may be working on a very long term plan, but He is never wrong, despite what we might think with our limited knowledge and time frame. God operates in eternity. We operate under time.

"The other message that some seem to get is that one should have unwavering faith in God even if he torments you, or allows you to be tormented. I'd say that's a little masochistic or something like that."

It's a difficult thing for people to understand that God may allow an evil person or spirit to torment or cause trouble against you. (free will) God says he always makes a way of escape. He will not put on you more than you can bear. Jesus says take his burden, for it is light and He will carry your load.

But if you are mistreated, you must look at it like a court case; you have to of suffered damages, in order to have a case to punish the oppressor. God is the one that takes revenge, not us. (Actually He can do it so much better than we could anyway, it is a great time to have faith in God, at a time like this). God does not act preemptively. He does not make judgment against anyone before they have actually violated a law.

I think as you grow to understand God and His level of perfection, you will learn to appreciate His very perfect ways. His ways are truly higher than our ways. We have all eternity to learn about the depth and greatness of God.

You are free to believe as you like, but I find your beliefs completely unconvincing on many levels.

And, having majored in religious studies, seriously considered the ministry several times, and having had a lifelong interest in religion and spirituality, it is virtually impossible that you will convince me, by posting lengthy descriptions of your beliefs in detail.

Please don't try to convert me any more - it's a waste of both of our time and energy.

how do you know exactly what the unknowable word of god means? I find it amazing that christians will tell us that we cannot understand the power of god(s), but in the same breath profess to tell us exactly how god(s) want us to live.

Did you know that if you give up all those fables, it's a lot easier to understand why things happen the way they do?

jafs, if you say God could have easily said no to satan, why not say that God could have easily stopped satan from doing anything? Why not zap satan the first time he chose to say he thought his way was better? In fact, why not zap anyone who does anything God doesn't want them to do?

Do you think that would be a God of love? How about free choice?

Seems a bit confused there.

If Satan is evil, and doing evil things to people, then yes, it would be a loving act for God to stop him.

Freedom is important, but must be curtailed if the exercise of that freedom harms others, in my view.

Suppose you wanted to rob a bank. What if once you put your plan together, God stepped in and zapped you? Do you think that is a God of Love? But you would serve as an example to others. Imagine their reaction. 'Did you see what happened to jafs? He wanted to do evil and God zapped him. Guess we better not if we know what's best for us.' Do you think they have free choice? Do you think they could really love God and feel they really had free choice?

In what way do you think that would be different than if you were under Hitler and he said, do it my way or else. You choose to do evil and go against him, and suddenly you were shot. Is Hitler's action any different than how you think God's action should be?

You're the one who talks of "zapping" people, not me.

I think God can certainly stop people from doing evil without killing them, if he's all believers think he is.

Also, your version is exactly what many believers espouse - it's just that the punishment comes later - you get to go to hell for eternity if you don't do what God wants.

There are problems with the traditional viewpoints that aren't solvable.

You're right, of course, to point out a contradiction between the idea of free will and the idea of an omnipotent omniscient God.

Helping to give myself and other people on this planet a chance to enjoy This life.

Much the same as most people, really, no matter what they profess to believe happens to us after we die.

ebyrdstarr...Why, when disagreeing with "believers", do all the atheists and agnostics have to call believers in God such names as "warped", etc.? And if you know others believe in God, why must you non-believers on LJW.com call my God "a magical sky creature" and other just as demeaning names? Why is that even necessary? I was agnostic for years in my 20's...but I never put believers "down" by handing out the sort of treatment I (and others) have received from non-believers on LJW.com. I studied, read everything I could get my hands on (C.S. Lewis is one of my heroes, a former atheist), prayed, and finally realized THE most incredible relationship with my Lord had developed over that period of time. It was amazing and beautiful...and has become even more amazing and beautiful as the many years have flown by!

But, ebyrdstarr, I still believe in many, many things...as you do. Believing in God, in Jesus, does not alter my joy with the things of this life...my belief system enhances all of those wonderful things in my life. When I see my granddaughter's face light up as she watches me drive into her driveway is a joy that is indescribable! Having enjoyed the work I did for many years was another great joy. My close family, extended family, and beloved friends are another reason to cherish this life. The parts of this beautiful country where I can retreat, either by myself if I have writing or editing to do (on a limited basis at this point in my life!) or with family and/or dear friends, to relax and enjoy the mountains...or the beaches...all such huge blessings. Too many blessings to list right here...

I don't know what you mean by the comment, "What a sad life it must be to think that none of these things are things to live for." Where did you get the idea, that because one believes in God, one cannot, or does not enjoy the blessings we have while on this planet? That they are not worth living for? I can't even imagine where you birthed an idea such as that...I find it incredible that you would even say such a thing. But, after being on and off LJW.com for many years, I must say I'm not surprised.

What IS a sad state of affairs is that we enjoy so many of the same things...and all that separates us from possibly being friends, if we met by chance, is the fact that I believe in God.

I was specifically responding to the question of "Just curious, but what do you live for as a non-believer?"

I didn't call believers warped; I called asking that question warped, which it is. I suggested to the person who posed that question that it was sad that s/he couldn't imagine that the things I listed are worth living for, as was implied by the question posed. I thought it was fairly clear that my response was in no way a knock on believers. I thought it was insulting that a believer would have to ask what a non-believer might live for. Please read an entire thread before attacking someone for a response that it is entirely limited and appropriate to the specific question posed.

ebyrdstarr...Your response to my post still doesn't negate the fact that you referred to my God as "a magical sky creature"...and doesn't erase your last sentence, "What a sad life it must be to think that none of these things are things to live for." You can yell, "foul", all you want, but I've come to this site often enough through the years to recognize derogatory remarks about Christians in general when I see them, ebyrdstarr, even if those remarks are clothed in the form of addressing one specific commenter.

As for telling me to read an entire thread before I "attack"...how absurd of you to say that I had not...or even that I was "attacking" you. You and your atheist and agnostic friends can dish out any old name-calling and insults you wish, but be called on it, and you are suddenly being "attacked". I think YOU should reread my previous post...I think YOU will see how you twisted it to fit YOUR agenda. I am a Christian, ebyrdstarr, not a door mat. It's no wonder Don't_Tread_On_Me has the username s/he does. (And no, I would never have asked the question of non-believers that Don't_Tread_On_Me asked.)

The sad life line was clearly aimed at the person who had to ask what a non-believer had to live for. If your reading comprehension is that lacking, that's not my fault.

The sky creature line was meant to emphasize the absurdity of the questioner to begin with.

You come here yelling at me about my attitude when I said nothing to you but simply responded to a stupid and insulting question. You want to read more into my comment than was there, that's on you, not me. You clearly have a much bigger problem disrespecting me than the other way around.

Everybody want to go to heaven, but nobody want to die. -Peter Tosh

And when Xtian terrorists want to make a point about life they kill people.

OK.

"because when a woman's life was hanging in the balance, they sought out the services of George Tiller."

Precisely.

Yes, a stereotype pieced together from those that confirm a preconceived bias while ignoring those that do not, the same as the intolerant right, to make some monolithic, lockstep "other" that can be pointed at as the opposition.

Myself, don't care at all about tolerance. No, that's not true. I think tolerance is a sham, and misses the boat. Forcing somebody to say or not say something doesn't change their opinions. As long as we're free to do what we want without hurting other people or their property, it doesn't ultimately matter what you think about what we are doing. But we should be free to express our disagreement or criticism along with our praise.

Seems pretty simple to me. But plenty of people -- left or right -- seem to disagree.

I don't care about most of Carl's letters. I got involved here in response to specific comments.

But here's why this particular letter irks me. It suggests that those who perished in a tornado just didn't pray hard enough. Let me give an example of how hurtful that line of thought can be to good people.

Soon after Elizabeth Smart was found, her father Ed appeared on Larry King, along with a few others on a panel. Naturally, he was overcome with joy and felt nothing but good will toward all. As he was expressing his joy, he quite innocently, with no malice, commented that Elizabeth's return was a testament to the power of prayer. One person on the panel was Mark Klaas, who has become a victim's advocate in the years since his own beloved daughter, Polly, was kidnapped. Sadly, her kidnapping did not have the happy ending the Smarts experienced. He rather delicately responded to Smart's comment by saying he was thrilled for that family, but wanted to urge him not to make that kind of statement again because it suggested that the Klaas family hadn't prayed enough, thus their daughter died.

Klaas was absolutely right, as is everyone who chides Carl now.