Archive for Wednesday, August 14, 2013

Special police detail seeks to curb dangerous behavior among college students

August 14, 2013


Lawrence always gets a little wilder around this time of year, as a new population of college students arrives and starts partying. But police here have organized a welcoming party of their own.

The Lawrence Police Department is deploying a special detail of officers this week to greet the influx of Kansas University students just arriving in town. The detail is tasked with curbing risky behavior such as drunken driving, public intoxication and jaywalking, said Sgt. Trent McKinley, a Lawrence Police Department spokesman.

Police aren't saying the problem is unique to college students. But anyone who has been downtown, or near a busy bar elsewhere in the city, on a Thursday or Friday night during the school year will be familiar with sight of sidewalk melees or drunken people walking in front of cars. In one wild weekend in April, police arrested dozens of people for alcohol-related offenses, including 29 for drunken driving, three people for battery, six for open containers and two intoxicated pedestrians.

The department hasn't made public the number of officers in the detail, but it will be assigned to problem areas, including downtown, for several months. And officers will be more active in some areas than police have been in the past, McKinley said.

The officers may issue citations to those drunkenly walking into traffic, where patrol officers handling other calls didn't have time before. Any fights that break out in public are likely to end in arrests, where they might have been merely broken up before. Anyone walking around in public with alcoholic beverages, or behaving in a drunk and disorderly manner, could get a ticket, McKinley said.

Devoting a team of officers to this problem is a new approach for the department, McKinley said, and it may surprise some returning students as much as newcomers. For many students, Lawrence in fall means nothing but fun: new friends, concerts, and late nights on Massachusetts Street.

But there is a darker side to the party, McKinley said, that includes alcohol-related injuries and late-night robberies and assaults committed against young people who become easy targets on a walk home from the bars.

Lawrence has seen too much of that, McKinley said. The officers' goal will be stop dangerous situations before someone gets hurt, and to send a message to people arriving in Lawrence for the first time.

"We want to let people know that Lawrence is not a free-for-all place, where you can walk down the street with a beer, completely obliterated, and not be contacted by the police," McKinley said.

The police won't seek to stop people from having fun, or hassle young adults who happen to step onto the sidewalk outside their home with a beer, McKinley said. They will be looking for people who, often because of extreme intoxication, are putting themselves or others in danger.

"In some ways, we're protecting people from themselves," McKinley said. "We want people to come downtown and have fun, but also to be safe."


happyrearviewmirror 4 years, 7 months ago

May I suggest using warnings liberally before pursing more punitive responses? The public deserves clear police communication that treats them like mature and responsible people who want to do the right thing. The U.S. police-state mentality has gone too far and is enough to make young people wisely decide to emigrate to another country to enjoy a better and more just quality of life.

Please warn people they could be facing arrest before simply taking down their contact information and sending them a snail mail notice to appear in court for arraignment.

alexis_johnson 4 years, 7 months ago

You squish heads never surprise me!! Give them a warning??? Ya, well there are written laws that govern your actions...You drink in public, you get a ticket or arrested!! You drink underage, same applies!! You want to fight in public, read previous!! I am sick and tired of people expecting special treatment for breaking the law...Try these big pants on....Be RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS and if you get caught, expect to be punished for it.

Geez, this town would be an awful place to be a cop... the ole damned if you do, damned if you don't. These cops are paid to ENFORCE the laws and that is what I expect them to do as a taxpayer. Set the example early in the school year of what is expected from people living in our city because if you don't, they will not respect our city.

Robert Rauktis 4 years, 7 months ago


Are any of these statutory warnings even read? And is the surgeon general's wisdom even considered before any actions? Darwin had a point.

Liberty275 4 years, 7 months ago

I think a warning is perfectly appropriate as a lot of our new students are coming from out of town and out of state where you might be allowed to drink in public or jaywalking isn't illegal.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Are those common in other places?

My hunch is that it's generally against the law to be publicly intoxicated, even if that's not enforced, and to jaywalk.

Liberty275 4 years, 7 months ago

Even so, I think a warning and an explanation of the law is OK for adults coming to KU for the first time, Being drunk on the street is one thing, but sitting on the curb enjoying a beer with your new neighbor without realizing it is illegal is not a reason to fine people that might be on their own for the first time.

domino 4 years, 7 months ago

Drinking age is 21 nation wide. If you are not 21, you are going to at least get a ticket for MIC or MIP and if you are driving it will be more. No need to give a warning - that is black and white. If you are over 21, the legal limit to drive may differ from state to state but don't be stupid enough to do it and you wont get a ticket. I don't think jaywalking is something they are going to be as concerned about as some of the more serious issues. Have these kids take responsibility for their actions! You play, you pay!!

1southernjayhawk 4 years, 7 months ago

And to which countries might these young drunks emigrate to so as to enjoy a better and more just quality of life? Of the 60 plus I have been to, I can't think of one.

elliottaw 4 years, 7 months ago

There are about 20 countries actually that rank higher than the US in quality of life and freedom

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Just out of curiosity, could you please tell us what the immigration patterns are between the U.S. and those 20 countries? I mean, if it's as you suggest, one would expect more of us going there than them coming here.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Only if those countries make it easier to immigrate there than we make it to immigrate here.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Two thoughts come to mind. First, are our immigration policies so out of line when compared with the immigration policies of those 20 countries? Second, are you suggesting that high quality of life is related to low immigration?

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

I don't know.

Possibly, although that's not what I was thinking when I posted.

I was just pointing out that you can't judge relative quality of life by immigration patterns without considering other factors, like how easy/hard it is to immigrate to various countries.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Sometimes there's a disconnect between what people say and what they do. I tend to believe the latter is more reliable. So if I look back to the days of the '60s-'80s, when I heard some pretty radical thinkers raving about the Cuban revolution and how it had made everyone so happy, so equal, then I saw daily reports of people risking their lives to flee Cuba added to the fact that very few were going the other way, I would discount the tales of Cuba becoming a wonderful place and believe the actions of those fleeing was a better indicator. A claim was made that there are 20 countries where people are happier. If immigration patterns supported that claim, I'd be a believer. If immigration patters don't support the claim, I'd remain skeptical.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Then you'd be ignoring a very important aspect of the question.

Why would you want to do that?

I believe there are a number of countries with excellent quality of life that make it very difficult to immigrate there - the fact that immigration to those countries is low in no way detracts from the fact that they have a high quality of life.

Also, you should consider that immigrating to another country is a rather drastic move for many people, as it makes it more difficult to spend time with family, involves living in a foreign culture, etc. We considered immigrating to Canada (seriously) - the fact that we didn't doesn't mean they don't have a lot of things we like, and in a number of ways seem superior to the US to us.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

You considered going to Canada and Cubans considered coming here. The difference, of course, is that they did it and you didn't. What does that suggest to me? It's a matter of degrees, Jafs. If in your opinion Canada was ever so slightly superior, that might not be enough to cause you to move, what with the cost, distance from family, etc. However, the Cubans also considered the cost, the danger, the likelihood they would never see family again and made the move anyway. That tells me the difference between Cuba and the U.S. was not ever so slight. It was huge.

I've done some travel in my life. I went to Europe and went to some lovely countries, countries that had what I would consider a high quality of life. Yet I don't think I would be restricted from moving there, if that was my choice. I'm trying to think of countries that would both restrict me from moving there if that was my choice and also had that high quality of life. I really can't think of any. I certainly can't think of 20. I'm still waiting for elliottaw to list them so we can see if their patterns of immigration would agree with his statement.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

I think it's very hard to immigrate to Switzerland, isn't it?

Now you're adding the element of "much better", which wasn't in elliot's statement. All he said was that the other countries "ranked higher". That could be a lot higher or a little higher.

I don't know of 20 offhand, but I know that the US ranks low on education, and a number of other criteria, relative to a bunch of other places. Denmark has consistently wound up at the top of the list - how easy is it to immigrate there?

Well, a very quick search shows that it's extremely difficult to immigrate to Denmark - the government basically called for a halt to immigration in the '70's, and has tightened immigration requirements so much that it's the hardest country in the EU to immigrate to.

And, although there are lots of foreigners living in Switzerland, it's very hard to become a Swiss citizen, and Switzerland doesn't have automatic birth right citizenship, meaning that a child born on Swiss soil isn't automatically a Swiss citizen.

So far my first two guesses seem right - two countries with high standards of living are hard to immigrate to.

There are, of course, lots of ways to rank places. The happy planet index ranks places on health, longevity and ecological sustainability. America, Canada and Europe weren't represented at all in their top ten list.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Yes, Jafs, there are many way to rank a country. That said, I still tend to look at what people are actually doing as a better indicator.

Let me give you two examples, or better yet, two homework assignments. In this forum, we hear so many people rant and rave against big corporations, those that import products and exploit workers. Well, today is a typical Saturday. Go to Wal-Mart, either one here in Lawrence, at say three this afternoon, and count how many cars are in their parking lot. The point being that despite the rhetoric, people are still going to shop there. At least that's what I suspect. Second assignment; again, there has been much discussion in this forum about Detroit going bankrupt. The usual suspects blamed management or the unions. Whatever. Now, Jafs, I don't know where you live, but go outside and take a walk around the block. If you live in the country, come to town and walk around any typical block. Count how many cars are foreign nameplates compared to American cars. Again, the point being that rhetoric is one thing, people's actions are something else.

The LJW recently implemented a policy of having a poll to offset it's operating costs. Many have said they lie, or just pick the first or last answer. Whatever. Talk is cheap. Polls are fine, for what they are. People's actions though, tell the real story. I'm going to go way out on a limb, here, make a bold statement that I suspect is correct, though you or anyone else are free to prove me wrong. (I may take a real hit here), Anyway, I think it's true that more people come to the U.S. from every country on the planet than Americans go to that country. I think more of them are coming here than we're going there, for every country. It's true of Canada. True for Denmark and Switzerland. True for Cuba and China. Actions speak louder than words, Jafs.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

It's sort of a form of denial, to ignore information like the information I've presented.

I don't understand it at all.

Did you read my post? It's almost impossible to immigrate to Denmark, yet they consistently rank very high on quality of life and happiness of the population. That means that low immigration rates don't mean that Denmark isn't a great place to live.

Your Wal-Mart and auto examples aren't convincing. I bet that the people on this forum who are upset about Wal-Mart don't in fact shop there. And, as we've discussed before, as wages drop, people have fewer choices, and have to shop at cheaper places, like Wal-Mart. As far as cars, for many years, if one wanted a reliable fuel efficient car, it was very difficult to buy American made cars.

You seem to have an odd tendency to focus on people's choices without considering the context and outside influences, as if people are all wealthy enough to buy whatever they want, and have an unlimited supply of quality goods and services to choose from. Obviously this isn't the case, right?

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

I'm not ignoring facts, Jafs. I mentioned earlier that there's a sort of disconnect between what people say and what they do. Both can't be true, so when I search for the truth, I think what people do is a better indicator of that truth than what they say.

Lawrence is a great town in many ways. The university brings in people from around the world, more people than a non-college town of similar size. The city I lived in previously far exceeded what one might expect in terms of foreign born residents. The numbers of people I've met, the numbers I've interacted with, really are very high. Immigration to this country can be difficult, but not impossible. During my conversations with those many, we've discussed the various obstacles each country has. And while there may be a few where the obstacles are great, they tend not to be those one would find on those high quality of life lists mentioned. I think I'll stand by my original contention.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Your original contention that immigration patterns prove or disprove relative quality of life?

One can only believe that if one ignores the various other factors at work - not something I want to do, but go ahead if you want.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Many of those other factors tend to equalize themselves out. If say you moved to Canada, you would be "X" miles away from your family and your move would have incurred "Y" amount in financial costs. Then again, a Canadian moving here would be "X" miles from his family and it would cost him "Y" dollars as well. So there's an equilibrium. During the many discussions we've had on illegal immigration, many have called our policies over-restrictive. Maybe, but I tend to believe there's a range of difficulty and the U.S. and most other countries fall within that general range. Again, an equilibrium. Sure, there are going to be exceptions, but not enough to account for a discrepancy accounting for 20 countries having a better quality of life yet immigration away from that country exceeds Americans going there.

nick_s 4 years, 7 months ago

Recent armored car acquisition a mere coincidence?

Dan Rose 4 years, 7 months ago

They do it in Cancun, Mexico - with assault weapons in hand! Quite a menacing sight to see a truckload of commandos in full gear, ready at any time!


nick_s 4 years, 7 months ago

Reminds me of a quote from Stanley Kubrick's "Full Metal Jacket" when they're flying patrols in the armored helicopter. Joker: "How do you kill innocent women & children?" Animal Mother: "Easy. Dont lead them as much."

MarcoPogo 4 years, 7 months ago

The helicopter's door gunner says that, not Animal Mother. :)

happyrearviewmirror 4 years, 7 months ago

Given the tragic injury that happened last fall this response is somewhat understandable. However, better problem-solving responses than punishment usually exist. The U.S. does boast the highest incarceration rate in the world per a HuffPost article today. Using police officers as first-responders to every type of school and community problem imaginable definitely leads to criminalizing people and to a school-to-prison pipeline.

Personally, especially after the latest whistleblower and surveillance news leaks, I'd prefer to live in Canada or any other developed country that still somewhat values people over profits. It's no fun being bossed around by authoritarian liars.

domino 4 years, 7 months ago

Not saying I like what's going on with the whstleblower and surveillance leaks but if you would prefer to live in Canada, I'd say pack your bags. No one here is stopping you and you don't even need a Passport to get in to Canada! Safe travels!

skull 4 years, 7 months ago

Well that's just not true at all. You can't simply "pack your bags" and show up any more than we happily greet the thousands crossing the Rio Grande. You also do, in fact, need a passport to travel there and have for at least a few years now.

Jeremiah Jefferson 4 years, 7 months ago

What better way to make money than cuffing and stuffing wealthy KU students. They will look good running them down with the new armored personnel carrier too.

Tony Holladay 4 years, 7 months ago

No running with scissors while drunk or the cops will get you!

Robert Wells 4 years, 7 months ago

It has come to my attention that there is a epidemic in this country. Just a minute, I get a little choked up here. OK here goes! JAYWALKERS. Excuse me!!!!! The city of LAWRENCE with all its past experiences....ex.The sacking of Lawrence in Eighteen Sixty something. Why do we only have one armour Vehicle???? My God... Mr. City Manager. I can NOT sleep at night knowing my cross walks are being abused. A special Police force is not enough. Call out the Drones. Jaywalkers need to be on the FBI's most wanted list!!!! In the mean time my Brothers murderer walks free because there is not enough resources to investigate.

tomatogrower 4 years, 7 months ago

There have been some late night pedestrian accidents, because of young people jaywalking, so yes, it is a problem.

Michael Rowland 4 years, 7 months ago

I believe this is warning enough. They're made aware of the laws. If they want to be treated like mature adults then they should act like mature adults and not drink to excess or behave like this.

Charles L. Bloss, Jr. 4 years, 7 months ago

Ignorance of a law is no excuse for breaking it. Good job LPD. Barney said "nip it in the bud". This is the best time to get the word out, these laws will be enforced !!

kernal 4 years, 7 months ago

Keep in mind, most of the new incoming KU students are just three months out of high school, have never been away from home, no longer have to report home by curfew and their brains won't be fully developed until they're approximately twenty-four years old. Do they still need some guidence? Most of them do.

Warnings can be imparted as knowledge. For instance, a student is walking and texting, steps out in the street without checking for a green or red light or oncoming traffic (you're damn lucky I don't text and drive) and almost gets hit by a car and STILL doesn't notice?

Yeah, they need notices the first time around. Second time, ticket with a fine.

msezdsit 4 years, 7 months ago

Yep, lets crack down on those pesky college students. Especially that jaywalking.

I can see a concern for safety but this is a little over board. I think something closer to the way the police handle the crowds after a big KU tourney win would be more appropriate.

agitatedbacon 4 years, 7 months ago

I think the LPD should have zero tolerance for DUI.. as far as the other student behavior, a more lenient teaching based approach rather than a brutal crackdown would probably be more effective. I have found that most students are supportive of the LPD and that there's a greater level of community trust of the police among young people in Lawrence than in many other cities (especially the Johnson County suburbs). Destroying that relationship to crack down on jaywalkers and other alcohol related crimes that aren't disturbing others may not be the wisest course of action. On top of that, protecting people from themselves shouldn't be the main focus of any police force.

One of the problems with DUI enforcement and the reason that the police only arrest a few a night is that it takes a police officer s 1-2 hours to make the stop, arrest the offender, take them to the jail, and write a report. This takes the officer away from patrol and answering more pressing calls.

Some cities have a special traffic or DUI unit that only handles DUIs and doesn't answer calls. A patrol officer will make a stop and wait for the DUI officer to show up and do testing, arrest, etc. This means that the patrol officer only needs to wait a few minutes and then can get back out on the street. This seems like a good compromise that would allow more drunk drivers to be dealt with every night. If the police asked for a tax increase specifically to fund this type of service (rather than a broad "we need more officers"), I would vote in favor of it and I think many in the city would too.

Scott Morgan 4 years, 7 months ago

Been around here for 13 years and always wondered how the campus grew as it did. It seems so integrated with the city. For years I looked for a college area of bars and such thinking there had to be.

Many moons ago at a university far away there was campus, and there was city. About the same size as Lawrence.

If you partookith of drink or smoke one was warned not to wonder off into the small city. Or, at least be on the best behavior. On the other hand the dozens of university type businesses were most often free of what we called townies. One was given a bit more wide latitude in stupidity in the college area still today. Also, not much need to drive. Worked well.

Then natural progression of age, one migrated to the city for fun and relaxation. Of course with ego fired maturity.

Ricky_Vaughn 4 years, 7 months ago

Drunk driving is one thing, but harassing jaywalkers? Your tax dollars at work!

ResQd 4 years, 7 months ago

I've been here many years and know that Tennessee Street is a death trap when the students are back in town. I avoid it like the plague. The street lights are terrible and in the past, I've seen students dart across the street and cannot see them; they're almost a blur. In any case, coming home from work tonight, I spotted more than 3 police cars downtown that were patrolling the area. Kudos for them, keep those students in check and show them that outside of KU campus they cannot just walk in front of cars on their cell phones and pretend that they are invincible.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago


I just think it's more complicated than that.

And, that there are a number of other countries that offer better quality of life than this one, even if there aren't a lot of people immigrating there, for whatever reason.

I'll give you one more example, then give up. I've been researching Costa Rica a little bit, and it's incredibly attractive as a place to retire, even for a few years. But, it's very unlikely we'll do that. If you conclude that because we don't do it, it's not a great place to live, you'd almost certainly be mistaken.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

O.K., I'll also quit after this last comment. What one person in Lawrence, Ks. thinks of Costa Rica or Canada is statistically insignificant. What one person in Switzerland thinks about the relative quality of their country vs. another is also insignificant. However, when you ask a significantly large number of people, when to track the behavior of a significantly large number of people, then it becomes statistically valid. So if I asked one person who moved from New York to Havana about the differences in the quality of life between the two cities, his answer would be nothing more than one person's opinion. When we're tracking the opinions and behaviors of entire countries, then the responses become significant.

BTW - I visited Costa Rica many years ago and yes, I thought it a lovely country with many friendly people. But I was a long way away from retirement and didn't give that question a second thought.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Nice to hear that my experience/opinion is insignificant.

I don't agree, of course.

Just for grins, I looked it up. There are in fact 25 countries with higher net immigration rates than the US. That lends credence to the original statement about 20 countries with higher quality of life, if one interprets immigration the way that you do.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

You managed to misinterpret two things with one comment. I said the opinion of one person is "statistically" insignificant. You're entitled to your opinions just like everyone else, but you can't draw conclusions from a poll when the number of respondents is too small.

Suppose 10,000 Canadians moved to the U.S. in any given year and 2,000 Americans moved there. That's the sort of thing I've been talking about in this whole thread. You now want to add in that 20,000 Chinese move to Canada, making them a net gainer through immigration. That may be true, but that's not what I've been talking about in this whole thread. If that's what you thought I was talking about, then you've misinterpreted this whole thread.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

I'm not using myself as a "poll", I'm giving my experience and perspective. I do think, of course, that I'm not unique, and that the things that would stop me from immigrating are shared by others.

I know that's what you've been saying. And, I continue to believe that your interpretation of such things is incorrect. But, net migration rates offer more information that's interesting as well, while your statistics don't include that information. For example, your 2,000 Americans to Canada doesn't include all of the Americans who move to other countries. If one believes, as you do, that immigration patterns prove something about quality of life, then one would conclude that the countries with the highest net migration have the highest quality of life.

I don't believe that, so it doesn't prove that to me. In fact, I was surprised at a number of the countries with higher net migration rates than the US, since they don't seem that attractive to me. As I've said all along, I think it's more complicated than you do.

There are other factors at play that you seem determined to ignore.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Sure, people move for a variety of reasons. Individuals make decisions based on a variety of individual factors. But generally speaking, groups of people make decisions based on what is better for the. I'd be surprised if whole groups of people moved from good conditions to bad conditions. I'd be surprised if say, whole groups of people were moving to Syria in the past year or if there are plane loads of people waiting to leave for Cairo today. Maybe some guy has a job waiting for him, or some other guy has family there, but whole groups? I doubt it.

But there are whole plane loads of people waiting to get here. I think that's significant. It tells me something. I'm not trying to diminish the fact that there are other very desirable places in the world. But the U.S. continues to be a beacon to the world. Not every single individual. But to more that want to come here than who want to leave. And I think that's significant as well. More Canadians are coming here than Americans going to Canada. More Chinese coming here than Americans going to China. More Cubans coming here than Americans going to Cuba. More Germans coming here than Americans going to Germany. Must I list every country before an unmistakable pattern arises?

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Yes. More people come here than leave.

But we're hardly unique in that, and as I said, there are about 25 other countries whose net migration rates are even higher than ours.

One could probably conclude that countries with a net migration rate that's positive are more attractive than countries with net negative rates, but that's about it as far as I can tell.

There are also plane loads of Americans leaving for other places - our net migration rate is only about 3.6/1000 people, while the highest one on the list is about 40.6/1000.

One factor that occurred to me a little while ago is that countries may differ in how easily one can leave them, as well as how easily one can enter them, which also plays into these statistics.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

More fun numbers.

On a list of 193 countries, 93 had net zero or positive migration rates, while 100 had net negative ones.

That's almost an even split, meaning that about 1/2 of the countries in the world are attractive places to live.

Also, though, there are some anomalies, suggesting that my view has merit. Is Russia really a better place to live than Thailand? They have a higher net migration rate, but I'd be surprised if it's a better place to live.

Seth Peterson 4 years, 7 months ago

Not taking a side here - but over the last couple weeks seeing you two go back and forth make the think of two bickering brothers. I just find the back and forth humorous compared to all the other commenters pettiness.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago


I like your analogy - for me, discussing and debating ideas doesn't have to come with personal animosity. In fact, one sort of needs to remove animosity to get a decent discussion, I'd say.

Glad you're enjoying our little conversations :-)

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

O.K., I'll jump back in. I saw the list as well. The problem with the way you're looking at it is that with so many countries, there will be too many variables for anyone to say definitively that people are going from one country to another for any particular reason. As an example, in Saudi Arabia, 80% of the population does not work, the oil income being enough to support the population. By necessity, they import an awful lot of labor. That won't be true in other places. No one in their right mind would go to Somalia right now.

The point I was trying to make was that if you narrow the variables, you'll get a better idea of why people are moving around. I suggested looking at the U.S. individually vs. each of those 20 countries that were mentioned. Since they weren't specified, we're left to guess, but my suggestion still stands. Compare the U.S. to Canada. Compare the U.S. to Costa Rica. Compare the U.S. to Germany. Whatever. If you want to compare two countries besides the U.S., go ahead. But when you compare 193, there's too many variables to say anything.

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Even with a smaller sample size (which generally isn't the way to go with research, right?), I've been saying all along that you can't draw the kinds of conclusions you want to draw from immigration patterns.

So, I'll stand by my view, which is that there are plenty of other good places to live other than the US, and that you can't draw the conclusion that someplace has a lower quality of life because they have a lower net migration rate - there are too many other variables at work.

Denmark is the best example - given their very stringent immigration policies, they let hardly anybody in, and yet it seems to have a very high quality of life, according to many years of ranking studies.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Why then do you suppose more people come to the U.S. from Canada than Americans go there? Why is it also true for Costa Rica? And Germany? And China? And France? And India? And South Africa? And New Zealand? And ... every country on the planet? Is there really no conclusion you can draw?

jafs 4 years, 7 months ago

Please provide a source for your claims.

So far I haven't seen any evidence that what you say is true.

Also, even if true, I'm not at all sure that it means what you think it means - net migration rates are a better way to look at the issue, in my opinion.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 7 months ago

Evidence! Actually, I made it up, maybe. I think it's generally true, though it wouldn't surprise me if there are two or three countries where it's not true. It was a bit of hyperbole that I thought you'd see through. Kinda like if I said it was going to be cold next January and warm again next July. No, I have no evidence that it will be, but it's a pretty good guess.

But again, Jafs, I'm surprised that based upon the actions of millions of people from around the world, actions that have taken place over the course of many decades, you can't draw a single conclusion. I think you're having trouble seeing the forest because all those damn trees are in the way.

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