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Archive for Tuesday, September 18, 2012

Misplaced blame

September 18, 2012

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To the editor:

What’s the point? Why would a Coptic Christian want to inflame the Muslim world by putting an undocumented and offensive video on the Internet? Because he knows it will inflame the Muslims. So then why did the Muslims, knowing that they are being baited, go into a rampage? Because they feel like they are being attacked, again.

Most Muslims live their religion and so highly honor the Prophet that any word against him is a word against themselves and their beliefs. Think about this: The religion of Islam has been hijacked by 30-40,000 individuals called terrorists and a lot of Americans blame all 1.6 billion Muslims for the terrorists’ actions. Is that fair? Of course not, but it happens all the time.

Then a guy puts out a video and the Muslims erupt. They are not responding just to the events of the film, they are responding to all the unfairness and injustice that has been heaped on them by those who want to destroy Islam.

Muslims are fighting against terrorists just like the governments of the world are fighting against them. Muslims want to end the death and destruction caused by the terrorists and Muslims want justice, equality and fairness, just like everyone else in the world. They don’t hate American freedom, they honor it.

Don’t blame Muslims for the riots in the Middle East; blame the terrorists who have provoked it. And with the Muslims (not against them) fight the terrorists.

Comments

grammaddy 2 years, 3 months ago

The film in question had absolutely ZIP to do with the attacks.It may cause the violence to continue, but it wasnot the reason for it beginning.

jaywalker 2 years, 3 months ago

"Muslims are fighting against terrorists just like the governments of the world are fighting against them."

While I agree that it's a small percentage worldwide that causes all this violence, if the above were remotely true most of this would have ended a long time ago.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 3 months ago

By that logic everything that's wrong in this country is all your fault, jaywalker.

geekin_topekan 2 years, 3 months ago

"if the above were remotely true most of this would have ended a long time ago. "

++++

Agreed, Muslims just want to live their lives, get their degrees, play professional sports, or whatever. They have no more interest in changing the world than the next guy.

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

Mr. Omar’s argument has no foundation. Islam, as practiced in the Middle East anyway, is the most intolerant belief system I have ever seen. Murder in the name of Islam goes on everyday all over the world and virtually no Muslim, prominent or otherwise, says a thing about it. Where is this vast majority of so-called moderate, peace-loving Muslims? Where is their collective outrage? How come this vast majority of peaceful Muslims are not all over the media condemning attacks carried out in the name of Islam? I hear this Red Herring BS all the time. Tell me Mr. Omar, do you know the address to the Jewish Synagogue in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 3 months ago

The main problem in the muslim world isn't Islam, although it doesn't really help any more than the western twist on the same superstitious Abrahamic tradition.

The main problems are extreme poverty, lack of education, lack of economic opportunities, lack of political rights, etc., all of which make them very susceptible to the superstitious claptrap that provides them some level of solace, even if it's mostly a lie.

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

There are hundreds of millions of hindus, and budists, and christians with the same problems Bozo. Their belief systems don't promote violence.

asixbury 2 years, 3 months ago

Neither does Islam, if you actually research it. Islam is in the stage that Christianity once was not too long ago. Remember the inquisition, crusades, etc? Christianity has killed many more people in the name of their god than Islam has....like a pot calling the kettle black. Your intolerance is what they are inflammed about.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 3 months ago

While mentioning the inquisition and crusades, perhaps you should also mention the reformation, and how that has allowed Christianity to enter a more modern age.

asixbury 2 years, 3 months ago

If you reread my post, I said that Islam is in the same stage Christianity was in a while ago, then cited what happened during that time. Like Jon Stewart said, Islam is in their teenage years. Give them enough time, perhaps (hopefully) they will grow out of this stage, such as Christianity somewhat did. The violence is not fully due to the religion, but the economic conditions that these people live in. Better education, more personal freedoms would help. The religion is not to blame. Their holy book is very much similar to the holy book of Christians.

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

I have researched it, not to mention spent most of the last 8 years living and working in the Middle East.

So this is about my intolerance is it? What about your ignorance? Does that factor into this?

Let me help you out. Hows about we discuss current events instead of acient history. Confining the discussion to a more relevant span of time, lets try this:

Since you were born, the practice of militant Islam has been responsible for more ideologically motivated murder and mayhem in the world than all other belief systems combined.

Wise up. Child-like demagoguery is not a substitute for critically reasoned thought.

asixbury 2 years, 3 months ago

How about you use some better reading comprehension and reread my post. Also, resorting to name calling ("child-like demagoguery") discredits your arguement. I will repost to your attention:

If you reread my post, I said that Islam is in the same stage Christianity was in a while ago, then cited what happened during that time. Like Jon Stewart said, Islam is in their teenage years. Give them enough time, perhaps (hopefully) they will grow out of this stage, such as Christianity somewhat did. The violence is not fully due to the religion, but the economic conditions that these people live in. Better education, more personal freedoms would help. The religion is not to blame. Their holy book is very much similar to the holy book of Christians.

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

Asixbury: So my argument is discredited? Hows this:

Whatever stage of development Islam may be in is irrelevant. No matter how well is explains the origins of the extremists behavior, in no way does it excuse it. Tell me, do you think they should be excused for their behavior?

Should they receive a pass for murder and mayhem simply because their belief system hasn’t fully evolved? Perhaps it’s because they have a long history of mass-murdering dictators for national leaders? Maybe it’s the tough social and economic conditions they have to live with every day?

Relativism much?

There is no justification for the behavior of Islamic extremists. It is wholly incompatible with the modern world – not just the US. Their conduct should be roundly condemned starting with the world’s most senior Muslim religious leaders and the governments of all the so-called Islamic states, who should be concerned that their peaceful religion is being hijacked by totalitarian psycho killers, yet they stand mute in the face of the carnage.

Life is tough. It’s tougher if you’re stupid. Wise up. These people want to kill you.

asixbury 2 years, 3 months ago

I said the same thing about their economy (also leaders) being the biggest reason for the actions of the relatively few extremists. Considering this religion has millions upon millions of followers, the extremists are few. Should we judge Christianity for the actions of its few extremists? I'm not saying this excuses the extremists' actions. I am saying you should not blame the religion for the actions of these crazies. The religion is not at fault, any more than Christianity is at fault for the Phelps clan.

Nice immature response, calling me stupid. Sounds like the same may be said for you.

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

"If only I had power. If only I had media power and political power. I swear by Allah that within six months, I would blow up these time bombs turning the U.S. into a thing of the past.” — Sudanese cleric, May 2012.

“The worst enemies of the Muslims, after Satan, are the Jews. Who said this? Allah did.” — Egyptian cleric, 2009.

Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one and kill them all, without leaving a single one.” — Deputy speaker of Hamas Parliament, August 2012

Islamic extremists number in the hundreds of thousands. Muslims who sympathize and/or support them number in the millions. They are a major and growing part of Islam.

Comparing them to Phelps is a laughable non sequitur example. There is no equivalent to Islamic extremists in Christianity.

asixbury 2 years, 3 months ago

Like I said before, those quotes are by extremists. They do not represent the religion. Name one verse in their holy book that speaks otherwise. I have read it; it is VERY similar to the bible.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 3 months ago

The Jewish Synagogue is right next door to the Catholic Church which is next door to the Buddhist Temple which shares space with the Hindus. Across the street is the Planned Parenthood which is next door to the offices of the Saudi equivalent to the ACLU. The battered woman's shelter is upstairs. The public library is around the corner. You'll know it when you see Salman Rushdie's latest works displayed in the front window. You can't miss it.

Abdu Omar 2 years, 2 months ago

Why is there no Mosque in the Vatican?

voevoda 2 years, 3 months ago

There are lots of Muslims who object very publicly to the violence of some of their co-religionists. But it is unfair of you, tbaker, jhawkins, to demand that Muslims express "collective outrage" when you don't expect the same of Christians. Where is the "collective outrage" every time Christians engage in violence?
The "synagogue in Riyadh" is a red herring; there hasn't been a Jewish community in Saudi Arabia for centuries. Would it be nice for Saudi Arabia to be more accepting of religious and cultural diversity? Yes, of course. But Saudi Arabia is not representative of the entire Islamic world. There are Muslim countries where there are synagogues and Jews live in peace. If you would like the number of places like that to expand, it is counterproductive to take a hostile tone towards Islam and imply that you do so because you support Jews.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 3 months ago

There aren't women drivers in Saudi Arabia, either. Is that because they choose not to drive or is it because it is a policy imposed upon them?

Fossick 2 years, 3 months ago

"Where is the "collective outrage" every time Christians engage in violence?"

I remember when Andres Serrano published a picture of a crucifix in a jar of urine and Christians rioted all over the world, attacking embassies, blowing up marketplaces, killing innocents, all egged on by their religious leaders. Wait, what?

As for collective outrage, how about you look around? It's there if you care to see it. http://www.nrlc.org/press_releases_new/Release053109.html http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/operation-rescue-denounces-the-killing-of-abortionist-tiller

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

Lets see....you say there are lots of Muslims who publically object to the violence perpetrated by fellow Muslims.

I say there isn't a lot of Muslims who publically object to the violence perpetrated by fellow Muslims.

This seems easy enough. Provide your citation. Show me. Gimmie something, and Op Ed in some Muslim country paper? A magazine article? Press conference from some senior Imam or Mullah / Islamic religious leader? Waiting....

Red Herring is it? How about the synagogue in Tehran? Why don't you try a little reading on the history of Jews in Iran and tell me it's a Red Herring.

The liberal playbook says I'm suppose to accuse you of being an intolerant bigot, and suggest you are antisemetic, but you're just ignorant. Wise up

Wouldn't it be nice if Saudi Arabia was more accepting of other belief systems? I'll tell you what would be nice - they no longer cutting your head off for having another belief system.

Please list for me all of the ideologically-motivated violence perpetrated by Christians against non-christians. To make it easier for you, give me just those attacks that have occurred in your lifetime. Waiting...

voevoda 2 years, 3 months ago

You think Christians don't attack persons of other religions, tbaker? Let's start with the Crusades. The expulsion of Jews from England, Spain, France. Pogroms in Russia. If you want the 20th century, try these: The Holocaust. Sri Lanka. Bosnia. Nagorno-Karabakh. Need some in the US? What about the attacks on mosques and synagogues?
If you read about the history of the Jews in Iran, tbaker, you will discover how long Jews lived peaceably there, under both Zoroastrian and Islamic governments. If you doubt that Muslims have decried violence, then you must use the Internet solely to post your own comments.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 3 months ago

Jewish population in Iran after WW II was about 140,000-150,000. By 2006, that number had been reduced to just over 10,000. It seems unlikely that 90+% of any population would agree to do anything, unless they were "strongly" encouraged to do so. And what they did was flee.

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

I did n't say that. I asked you to provide examples in your life time. Citing acient history in this discussion is irrelevant.

If there are Jews in Iran, they are living in hiding. The rest have been murdered or fled.

Abdu Omar 2 years, 2 months ago

they moved to Palestine by taking away the homes of the indigenous peoples there, both Christians and Muslims. They have butchered the children, cut down ancient olive trees and orchards, they have killed uncontrollably for over 70 years by stealing land and destroying the habitat of their enemies.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 2 months ago

The U.N. estimates the number of Palestinians displaced at 700,000 and the number of Jews displaced from Muslim countries at 750,000. If you'd like to argue that both were tragedies, fine. If you'd like to argue it amounts to an equal swap of lands, fine. But if you want to argue one was terrible while defending the other, I'd have a problem with that. The question you need to ask yourself and your Muslim brothers is how did you respond to your brothers in need. The Israelis accepted the displaced Jews as citizens. The Palestinians were locked in cages called refugee camps and kept there generation after generation. There, their hatred was fostered and encouraged. It's the path they chose. A choice they made freely. I wish they had made other choices, but alas, they did not. Tell me, wounded, who did the greater disservice?

Abdu Omar 2 years, 3 months ago

tbaker, you just read an article condemning the violence and saying that Muslims all over the world hate the terrorists and you ask "where are the moderate muslims?" They are here, right here in Lawrence; under your nose and you can't see them because they are moderate, never make a fuss, never kill anyone like you suggest they all do, and haven't burned buildings or blew up anything. We are the moderate Muslims and I agree 100% with Omar's assessment. It is airheads like YOU that keep stoking the fire of Islamophobia. Are we to be feared? Are all of us terrorists? NO and you know it. Stop the war on Muslims and join them in the fight agaist those who have made all of Islam look bad!

jhawkinsf 2 years, 3 months ago

You're a moderate? You condemn "Islamophobia"? Just yesterday you suggested that keeping Obama off the Kansas ballot was an Israeli plot, just because some birther in California happens to be Jewish. A Jew behind every plot is OK, but Islamophobia is to be condemned. Don't look now, but your hypocrisy is showing, "moderate".

Abdu Omar 2 years, 2 months ago

I made no such statement, you are totally mistaken.

jhawkinsf 2 years, 2 months ago

See your statement of Sept. 17, 2012 (11:42 am).

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

You have to change context and stoop to straw men and name calling to even attempt to make a point. Pathetic. Whos the airhead? Wise up.

Did I say all Muslims are terrorists? Was I talking about Islamic extremism in Lawrence? The US? No. I was talking about the “Muslim World” abroad, countries and regions of the world that are predominantly Muslim. Did I say Radical Islam is just an extreme version of Islam, and paint the whole belief system with a broad brush? No. I did not.

Militant / extremist Islam highjacks the religion to lend credibility to the movement. It is just as much a cultural-social ideology as it is a religion. It dominates all aspects of a person’s life. It is a violent totalitarian movement, similar to Nazis. It does not respect or recognize basic human rights or any freedom of expression. From the couple in Iran tortured for reading the Bible, to the father in Saudi Arabia cutting out his young daughter's tongue and burning her alive - its primary objective is to dominate all those within its reach and suppress all other ideologies, movements, and beliefs. Radical Islam is dedicated to the conquest of the world, by any means possible.

A policy of naiveté, one of granting concessions and accepting the excuses for violence to appease murderous Islamic extremists has become US policy, the latest example being the idea that this ridiculous “movie” caused the latest spate of attacks on the US embassies. Hog wash. Since the 70s, the world has stood by and watched one attack after another at the hand of the radical Islamic extremists. Thousands of innocent people have died and continue to everyday – in the name of Islam. The mainstream Muslim communities, world peace groups, academia, the news media, most politicians, and the United Nations have done very little. Mr. Obama and his administration are making a mistake thinking they can prevent more Islamic violence with this approach. All they do is invite more.

I’ll tell you the same thing I told the last denier: Show me the citation. Give me something. Point me to a source that lists all the prominent Muslim world leaders who publically denounce the violence in the name of Islam. Give me a time and a channel so I can tune and watch. Trust me wounded – I really wish I was wrong on this and there was a huge, global, Muslim outcry against this growing problem, but there never has been, and there isn’t now.

Carol Bowen 2 years, 3 months ago

Didn't social media fuel the revolution in Egypt? Do not underestimate the influence of digital technology. It's changing the way we think and how we communicate.

notajayhawk 2 years, 3 months ago

"Don’t blame Muslims for the riots in the Middle East; blame the terrorists who have provoked it."

Yeah. 'Cause making a Youtube video is terrorism, but storming an embassy and murdering an ambassador from a country that just helped you get rid of a dictator you didn't like is "they are responding to all the unfairness and injustice that has been heaped on them."

That's a heap, alright. What color is the sky on your planet?

Abdu Omar 2 years, 3 months ago

"Please list for me all of the ideologically-motivated violence perpetrated by Christians against non-christians. To make it easier for you, give me just those attacks that have occurred in your lifetime. Waiting..."

Are you kidding? Do you know the history of Christianity in the first centuries after Christ? The wars between the Trinitarians and Unitarians were very violent, vicious and have never been really settled. Then there was the Spanish Inquisition where Isabella and Ferdinand killed or imprisioned millions of Unitarians, Jews, Muslims, etc because they weren't Catholic.

Oh, I forgot to mention the millions of Muslims who died at the hands of the Crusaders in the 10 C. Didn't you study that? Hitler, a Christians, put to death 13 million Muslims, Jews, Gypsies and bohemians, that was in my life time. Then there were the wars brought on by others because of religion.

Tbaker, you are ignorant if you think Christians are lilly white. However, I agree, that most Muslims are being blamed for the acts of a few and I, too, am sick of being blamed.

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

Did you miss the part where I said "in your lifetime?"

Though very interesting and a compelling read for history buffs, citing the Crusades in the context of a discussion on contemporary Islamic extremism is at best irrelevant.

Hilter didn't kill in the name of a religion. (Christianity) He killed in the name of an ideology - National Socialism. Red Herring.

Fossick 2 years, 3 months ago

What tbaker said. Plus whether, when, and to what extent Hitler was a Christian at all is still hotly contested by historians: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian

Easy rhetorical point to make, but a far more difficult historical one.

Fossick 2 years, 3 months ago

"How would Christians in the U.S. react if a Muslim released a video depicting JESUS CHRIST as a womanizer and a child molester?"

Oh, probably exactly the way they did when Abdullah Smith called Jesus a bisexual racist child-killer with women's breasts: http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/did_jesus_have_female_breasts.htm

That reaction would be yawn

tbaker 2 years, 3 months ago

Kinda like they will react to the Egyptian cleric identified as Abu Islam who tore up the bible during the demonstrations opposite the U.S consulate on Tuesday. His actions were met with huge applause and before he drove away, he told the crowd “next time I will urinate on the bible’

American Christians will not riot and storm the Egyptian Embassy in DC. Can anyone tell me why?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 3 months ago

The same could be said for pretty much every "tribe" of humans on the planet (including aryan barbarians.)

Not that you have time to notice such facts what with all the goosestepping and siegheil saluting.

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