Archive for Friday, May 25, 2012

God, marriage

May 25, 2012


To the editor:

This is in response to Dennis Dailey’s letter of May 18. Those who oppose homosexual marriages in 31 states do so because they believe marriage should be between a man and a woman. It’s not because they hate gays.

Dailey is right about the 50 percent divorce rate, even among Christians and despite the fact that God hates divorce. Godly counseling can help, but the real problem is that Christian couples don’t recognize that their real enemy is not their mate but the devil.  Many people do not believe in a literal devil, or Satan. That is exactly what he wants people to believe. However, Jesus knows that the devil is real, and he knew that we would have to deal with his attempts to destroy marriage. We are given the means to be victorious in life despite Satan’s temptations, but either we are ignorant of his ways and/or the means God has provided to defeat him through spiritual warfare with the “full armor of God.”

If any of us are ignorant about God’s ways, then we can choose to accept His truth and can begin living an abundant life by faith in Jesus Christ.

My wife and I will be married 55 years in June and we tell people, “Jesus is our Superglue.” If it wasn’t for Him and God’s truth found in the Bible, we would probably be a part of that 50 percent of marriages that end in divorce. Greater is He (God) who is in us than he (Satan) that is in the world.


Roland Gunslinger 5 years, 6 months ago

Of course Satan exists. He has a weekly poker game with the Easter bunny, Superman, Frankenstein's monster, bigfoot, and Rudolph the red nosed reindeer.

Why they still allow him to play is beyond me, he's always cheating.

somedude20 5 years, 6 months ago

they allow mr satan to play because his sisters are smokin hot!

kansanjayhawk 5 years, 6 months ago

Obviously your light attitude shows a lack of belief. It really does not matter what you and I believe because Christ Jesus himself taught the existence of hell which was prepared for the devil and his demons! God never wanted any man to go to hell. That is why he provided the redemption through Christ. We simply receive the free gift by asking Christ to become our savior and repenting from our sin.

hujiko 5 years, 6 months ago

Did he tell you that personally? You seem mighty sure of everything.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 5 months ago

"Obviously your light attitude shows a lack of belief." No! Really??? Thank you for pointing that out, Captain Obvious. I never would have known.

pace 5 years, 6 months ago

I was so relieved, I was worried that God wanted to marry someone local.

deec 5 years, 6 months ago

I thought god was already married to all those nuns.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 6 months ago

When you could no longer sell your daughter for three goats and a cow, marriage was already redefined. I think it was also redefined when women were no longer forced to marry their rapists. Truth is, what you think marriage is and what I think marriage is are two different things. (Just ask Mitt Romney's grandpa.) Therefore, government should only define "marriage" as a legal, contractual commitment between consenting adults. Then Britney Spears can have all of the 24 hour, Las Vegas marriages she wants and everyone goes home happy.

Ron Holzwarth 5 years, 6 months ago

What Jesus knows or what the devil tries to do are not a matter for ridicule. These are unknowable things that have to be accepted on faith, since they cannot be empirically proven. A careful reading of the New Testament will make it clear that Christianity is a religion that is based upon faith in unseen things. And, if you have ever attended a Russian Orthodox service, it will be made very clear to you that the very center of the worship is an invisible part of the celebration of Mass.

John Chapter 1, verse 18: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."

John Chapter 20, verse 29: Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

2 Corinthians Chapter 4, verse 18: "because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

My belief, as I stated on May 13, 2012 on this forum is that "Religions are not really truths, instead they are methods to achieve goals that we cannot understand."

Different peoples and different cultures use different methods to increase their spirituality in this vale of tears that we have found ourselves struggling within.

We should be accepting of the beliefs and spiritual practices of others, although they differ greatly from our own. I simply cannot believe that the Creator cannot be reached in many different ways.

"There are many paths up the mountain, but the view is always the same." - ancient Chinese proverb

DeckDoctors 5 years, 6 months ago

Ron you seem to respect scripture but you're understanding is lacking. There is only ONE WAY to a relationship with God. Jesus said " Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:5-7

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 6 months ago

Kinda like Gozer and Zuul the Gatekeeper, huh? I get it.

asixbury 5 years, 6 months ago

That is only within Christian scripture. There are many different religions and philosophies of life out there. Ron is stating he believes they are all just different ways for people of different cultures to reach the same "creator." The major problem I have with Christianity is its assumption that they are the only correct religion and all others are damned. You don't hear Buddhists or Hindus going around stating they believe the only truth. They understand different lifestyles and cultures require different methods of worship to obtain what is essentially the same goal: spiritual enlightenment. Whether that is the goal of going to Heaven when you die, or reaching Nirvana, the point is basically the same. It does not make sense for a world of people vastly different than one another to only have one method to reach the "creator." This would be awfully short-sighted of a god that is supposed to be omnipotent and perfect.

DeckDoctors 5 years, 6 months ago

I would listen more closely to the only one who claimed to be God and backed it up by rising from the grave like Jesus did. There never was nor will be a Budhist or Hindu that can pay the price for everyones sin and then overcome death by rising from the Grave. So using common sense would tell you to follow the one who can and did back up his words.

asixbury 5 years, 6 months ago

What proof do you have of this act? Did you know, many original gospels did not mention Jesus returning from the grave at all. Just because a book written by a man thousands of years ago said something happened does not mean it did. Could you imagine if someone now days claimed something to this extent? Everyone would think them loony.

asixbury 5 years, 6 months ago

You completely ignore any rational thought on this matter. Why is it so important for some Christians to believe they are the absolute only ones that are correct? Everyone can be a shade of right, that does not detract from Christianity's message. Actually, if taken as a whole, religions pretty much teach the same morals.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 5 months ago

"I would listen more closely to the only one who claimed to be God and backed it up by rising from the grave like Jesus did. "

Like Anubis? He did that gig a few thousand years before Jesus. (Look it up.)

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 6 months ago

Answer me this: do Jews and Christians worship the same god?

Greg Cooper 5 years, 6 months ago

What does it matter? That they worship a higher "authority", that they aspire to do good, that they seek better things for all people: those are the values of both religions. It matters not a whit if the God the worship is the same entity.

Now, to answer your question, I believe that the God we all worship is the same one, but known by different names and represented by different images. It makes no sense that any one religion has it over all the others, or that those who have "seen the light" of Christianity have any more chance of making it to "heaven" or "eternal life" or whatever reward there is for good living.

Read the Scriptures for what they are: a guidepost. Make your life decisions with them in mind, but don't ever believe you jave the one, true answer.

Remember, "...pride goeth before the fall..." is a warning to each of us not to hold ourselves atop all others. Those for whom we are responsible are us, and all else is dressing.

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 6 months ago

It matters because Jews and Christians do not worship the same gawd and the two are so blinded by their fairy tales to even realize the contradiction their attempting shove down everyone's throats. "Read the Scriptures" you say, but you fail to recognize that Jews follow the old testament and Christians follow the new testament...which is correct? Which word does gawd want you to follow? Eating shellfish is an abomination for the Jews but not the Christians? You've all been hoodwinked and bamboozled. And that goes for the followers of Islam too.

Shall we talk about all the different Christian denominations. Who is correctly interpreting gawd's word? You've all been brainwashed by a bunch of nonsense and you want the rest of the world to follow your lead. Give us all a break and keep your fairy tales to yourselves.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You folks have been trying to prove the existence of gawd for thousands of years and yet here we sit today with absolutely none what-so-ever. You keep on believing, bud. I'll keep on laughing.

Ron Holzwarth 5 years, 6 months ago

You need to talk to a Reform Jewish rabbi. There are many different denominations of Judaism, Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, Humanist, Flexidox, Karaite, Orthodox, and Ultra Orthodox. There may be others of which I am not aware.

They all believe very different things and practice Shabbat services somewhat differently, but you seem to think they're all the same.

You have some very serious misunderstandings. For instance, you seem to think that all Jews believe that the miracles described in the Bible actually occurred.

It is the official platform of the Reform Judaism movement that they did not, but you are free to believe they did if you want.

And, there are Jews that are Atheists.

Where's the "fairy tale" in that?

And, following the Old Testament? Jewish people refer to the Tanakh, not the OT, and the books are in a different order. Here's your new word for the day: Talmud.

The Talmud is the final authority, not the Tanakh. Also, the writings of the rabbis are considered to be of great importance.

Some people make an attempt to educate themselves before making broad claims of great knowledge, but that is certainly not the case here.

But I know you won't ever do that, because you think you already know everything by some sort of miraculous understanding already. That is a fairy tale.

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 5 months ago

Whatever, Ron. You just helped to prove my point, that's all. The contradictions are never ending, eh? Still no proof of a gawd. Just a lot of lip flappin'. Everybody has their own special version of gawd and what he/she/it wants the human race to do. The best policy is to keep your fantasies to yourself. Accept everyone, include everyone, and just don't press your views. Question everything. Have a great day!

Ron Holzwarth 5 years, 5 months ago

I just helped to prove your point only in your own mind. And, in case you haven't noticed, there has never been a Jewish missionary at your door.

Ron Holzwarth 5 years, 5 months ago

Who would know more about the subject:

The person who is aware of different viewpoints and can knowledgeably write about topics without consulting a reference except for verification before posting, or someone who simply dreams up his simplistic comments, and then uses youtube for a reference?

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 5 months ago

Hey, I don't go door to door attempting to spread atheism to everyone. So, you see, you're still missing my point, Ron. Who's religion is the correct religion? Judaism (which sect), Christianity (which sect), Islam (which sect), Hinduism (which sect)? I could go on for a long time listing off different religions, and everyone of them believes in their heart of hearts that they are going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. Kind of ridiculous when you think about it. But, that's the thing, religion requires no thought, only obedience. And I point to Judaism and Christianity because the use the same book and worship the same gawd, yet their religions are absolutely nothing alike. Quite the contradiction there, eh Ron?

You're religious, more power to you. Just keep the fantasy to yourself and don't try to dictate to others how their lives should be based on your belief in a fairy tale. Pretty simple really, but I have a feeling you still don't get it. Have a great day, Ron.

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 5 months ago

Oh yes, the Jew's book speaks of a holy land that is all theirs and the USA is willing to spend gold and blood defending that balderdash. Give me a break. Time to wake up! There is no God. The promised land is a lie. Keep your fantasies to yourselves, religious people. Stop dragging the world into conflict based on your lie a.k.a. holy book.

Ron Holzwarth 5 years, 5 months ago

Jewish terrorists are just about unheard of. Muslim terrorists are in the news all the time.

And which is he worried about?

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 5 months ago

Ron...When did we start talking about terrorists? Inquisitions, crusades, witch hunts, etcetera? Now you want to discuss centuries of Christian terrorism? And the Jews... Wasn't it the Jews who crucified your Jesus (the Jew)? Now you're changing the subject away from the obvious contradictions found in your religious text? I'm no biblical scholar, but I know B.S. when I read/hear it.

pace 5 years, 6 months ago

I am absolutely sure God has a sense of humor. I think his voice is found more in love and wonder than prejudice and pursed lips. As we change a persons our relationships will change. Change is something that happens naturally and should be done with thought, but change will happen, that is sure.

akuna 5 years, 6 months ago

Yes, and if you slap lipstick on a pig it is a hockey mom, right?

beerbaron03 5 years, 6 months ago

" Many people do not believe in a literal devil, or Satan. That is exactly what he wants people to believe."

So the fact that I don't believe in the devil proves his existence? That's some airtight logic there.

asixbury 5 years, 6 months ago

I agree with your statement of the fallacy of this arguement.

Buddhists, among others, believe that things only exist because we believe them to exist. It's the philosophy of "I think, therefore I am."

Armstrong 5 years, 6 months ago

Mr B I agree with your statements. The liberal mindset will oppose your view simply because you disagree with them. A recent post I saw this made a great deal of sense in understanding the liberal way of thinking. When you substitute Govt for God you are always threatened and defensive when an opinion different from yours is proposed. 1) Because it is a threat to change their self created god. 2) You are challenging what they " created "

Sit back and enjoy the following loons as they will try and support why they are right or you are wrong while attempting to prop up their bogus way of thinking

Erin England 5 years, 6 months ago

You have a bogus way of thinking for believing your thoughts are superior over everyone else's "bogus way of thinking."

Jack McEnaney 5 years, 6 months ago

Lol! The I know you are but what am I rebuttal. Classic

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 6 months ago

I don't oppose his view because I disagree. I oppose his view because its founded in fantasy and has no business in politics let alone public life. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Greg Cooper 5 years, 5 months ago

Larry, many years in the past, people did not believe in a round earth, either, and they thought that concept was rooted in fantasy.

My point to you is that it might be to your advantage to disallow the notion that there might, indeed, be something to this religion stuff. Not that I am trying to convince you of anything other than that there is a point to life and the way we live it.

Your lack of deistic belief is fine, and I hope it serves you well for eternity.

Crazy_Larry 5 years, 5 months ago

Yep, the Earth was flat because that's the way gawd made it. The sun revolved around the Earth because that's the way gawd made it. To believe anything different was blasphemy and you were subjected by good Christians to torture and death, or life in prison. Religion, and gawd, are simply man's way of explaining the unexplainable. Science always sheds the light of truth. And the religious zealots fear it, as they should, because science reveals religion/holy scripture to be what it truly is--a lie.

IMHO, the meaning of life is to make a better world for those who come after you. It's not about winning a ball game or the accumulation of material objects. I don't care whether or not your house is bigger than mine. I also don't believe I'll be around for an eternity. I'll make the best of life while I have it in me.

jaywalker 5 years, 6 months ago

"Those who oppose homosexual marriages in 31 states do so because they believe marriage should be between a man and a woman. It’s not because they hate gays."

Re-he-he-he-eally? And you can speak authoritatively on this because.........?

mom_of_three 5 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, I am pretty sure that minister in North Carolina who opposes gay marriage does so because he hates them. That's why he wants to put them behind electric fences.

asixbury 5 years, 6 months ago

He opposes Gay marriage based on a religious belief. Religion has not place in government policies. Remember, not everyone in this country believes in the same god as you. Do not force your beliefs on all of the rest. The government shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion.

mom_of_three 5 years, 6 months ago

No, I dont think the dude in north carolina is based on religious belief. PUtting them behind electric fences to die out is just plain hate.

rtwngr 5 years, 6 months ago

Congratulations on a milestone of marriage that few ever attain, Mr. Burkhead. My wife and I will celebrate number 36 this year. I hope one day that we reach 55 as well. I also agree that without God as the center of our relationship, we never would have endured the storms of life that are typically encountered. It is too bad that so many do not recognize the spiritual side of Christian marriage that places God at the center. Families that do recognize this relationship are cohesive and normally do not fracture.

As far as those who reply with sarcasm and derision, I repeat, once again, that only one of us can be right. If you're right then we wind up worm food. If Mr. Burkhead and I are right, well, eternity is a long time. Anyway, Carl, nice letter but remember about casting your pearls before swine.

mom_of_three 5 years, 6 months ago

while I admire your statement about god and the center of marriage, i can't help but think about all those ministers who have been caught, literally, with their pants down.
And how do we know just one of us will be right? This is what confuses me about religion. There are baptists, catholics, and other religions which all claim to be the one who is right. So how do we know which one is right? Maybe they all are.

shadowlady 5 years, 6 months ago

Baptist, Catholics, Presbyterians, Quakers, etc, all serve the same God. While others worship an idol, or figurine if you will. The God that the Bible speaks of is the one true God. I'm sure you have heard or even read the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

mom_of_three 5 years, 6 months ago

But not the same religious tenants. Some can dance, some can drink, some can't wear pants. My grandparents used to badmouth the baptists because of the AMENs from their church. SO again, how do you know who is right? you don't.

pizzapete 5 years, 6 months ago

I like the drinking, dancing, and not wearing pants thing. That sounds like one heck of a party. Where do I sign up?

rtwngr 5 years, 5 months ago

Living a Christian life is not about living a perfect life. It does not make you more or less human than a non Christian. It does not make you more or less tempted to make wrong choices, whatever that may be. It does not prevent you from having free will. The philosophical view behind Christianity is understanding that there is something else after death. This something is contingent upon the present and how we live and function in the reality of the present. Life, to a Christian, is eternal. We believe that the soul lives on after death of the body. When we say we "know" it is not based on an empirical experiment that would satisfy Albert Einstein. It is based on a philosophical argument that is too lengthy to repeat here.

If you really would like to read some excellent writings on the existence of God, try the translated versions of Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas. He was a thinker of far superior intelligence than anyone writing on or in this rag of a publication.

booyalab 5 years, 5 months ago

and there have been even more politicians who have been caught doing the same. So should we stop voting?

Erin England 5 years, 6 months ago

I thought Christianity was accepting your neighbors for who they are? Not demeaning them for differences in their belief, but praising them for their life. Its great to spread the word of Christianity and tell others how it has shaped you and your life. I think mom_of_three has a good point. Baptists, Catholics...etc all worship the same being....the Holy Spirit. Yet, we still "fight." God is still loving no matter how you get to him.

However, you are entitled to believe whatever you choose. I say, if that's what brings you fulfillment, then do it and don't let anyone else tell you different.

jonas_opines 5 years, 6 months ago

"As far as those who reply with sarcasm and derision, I repeat, once again, that only one of us can be right. If you're right then we wind up worm food. If Mr. Burkhead and I are right, well, eternity is a long time."

Or, if the Hindus or Buddhists are right, we just come back again. Or if the old Ancestor Worshipers in China are right, then we float around waiting to get properly honored and remembered. Or if the old Norse are right, we spend our days fighting great battles and our nights feasting and drinking. Let's not even pretend that the choice is between the Christian version and nothing at all.

But let's be clear. For me it's not a question of whether you're right or anybody else is right. I've read a large portion of the Bible, and while I think Jesus as depicted was a very good example, If the Judeo-Christian God himself is real, exactly as depicted in the Bible, then I have no desire to worship him, and no desire to be a part of his Heaven. Judging Him by his actions the way he judges us, he is a terrible, capricious deity, who has slaughtered innocent people to show how great he was, caused his own son to be murdered, committed other atrocities that revile when committed by man, and I want no part of him.

Thankfully, I don't believe that version of god is anything other than the accumulated Oral and Scriptural traditions of a bunch of men that lived thousands of years ago.

pace 5 years, 6 months ago

No," I repeat, once again, that only one of us can be right." no, all of us can be right and all of us can be wrong, and many variants. It is a larger and complex question, and the question changes and the answers may not even be related to our simple questions.

Ron Holzwarth 5 years, 5 months ago

"Ancestor Worshipers in China"

Wrong country. Shinto is strictly a Japanese thing. You lost a whole lot of credibility right there. You didn't even know that they don't worship their ancestors! Their belief is that their ancestors are a pathway to the Creator.

And as your comment progressed, it went downhill farther and farther. It is obvious that you are certainly not an expert on what you think you are talking about.

woodscolt 5 years, 5 months ago

"Families that do recognize this relationship are cohesive and normally do not fracture."

Geeze, what a house of cards

Richard Heckler 5 years, 6 months ago

Satan might well be represented by Sam Brownback. We know this because he lies a lot. If Satan is no Saint then Sam Brownback certainly owns that feature as well.

Anyone who believes their definition of a Christian does not allow one to stand up fro their rights at an OWS protest might not know God or the son of God so well.

Then again if no one is a Saint what do we have?

SnakeFist 5 years, 6 months ago

I got Jesus Glue on my hand and my fingers were stuck together for a week.

Seriously, make a rational argument against homosexual marriage (hint: there isn't one) or allow it. But please stop pushing your belief in fairy tales on everyone else.

verity 5 years, 6 months ago

This is certainly a lot of incoherence for so early on a Friday morning and me not having had my coffee yet.

Well, I have to go now and take my secular butt to my volunteer job "helping others."

Pastor_Bedtime 5 years, 6 months ago

Seeing the devil and Jesus behind every bush. Amazing to think they let this guy teach. Sure would hate to be a non-christian in his class.

somedude20 5 years, 6 months ago

The devil is busy playing Diablo 3, get back to him in 3 weeks

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 6 months ago

Nah, will take at least 6 months before he manages to make his way through all of those new "demon hunters". And then Blizzard will pull a mean trick and release an expansion and keep him even busier. Here in a year or so they'll release the final xpac when he gets defeated and we can all breathe a sigh of relief.

funkdog1 5 years, 6 months ago

That's absolutely false. My spouse and I are atheists. We've been married for 20 years, with no plans to ever divorce. I have no desire to tell anyone else what to believe because I don't want anyone to tell me what to believe. I have no desire to try to force anyone to NOT believe in a deity because I don't want anyone to try to force me TO believe in a deity. I believe that every person has the right to worship or not worship as they see fit in their own home or private church. No one has the right to force any religious belief or activity in a publically funded space, just as I don't have the right to force atheism in a publically funded space.

Calling for prayer in schools or Christianity in government in the U.S. is no different than a Muslim-guided government in the Middle East. Freedom of religion means freedom for everyone. Please, please, please try to develop a modicum of common sense.

mom_of_three 5 years, 6 months ago

Religion has been a strong force - you are right about that. With the Puritans leaving England as they couldn't worship as they wanted, only to try to force others to worship as the Puritans saw fit. There were religious revivals which influenced many citizens, and religion was used to enforce and maintain the institution of slavery. Religion was used in the salem witch trials to kill innocent people and to slaughter Indians. yep, its been a strong force in traditional America all right.

pace 5 years, 6 months ago

No. you are delusioned. Why make someone disagreeing with you as an attempt to take your constitutional rights. Sometimes people can disagree without it being evil. Or do you want to say lies?

Pastor_Bedtime 5 years, 6 months ago

"the left fears that Christians will prevent advancement of their agenda." So do many of us from geographic Center of the Republican party. Nobody wants to take Carl's right to worship away; you can be as crazy as you want to be in your beliefs and still be a good American if you keep your priorities straight. When he extrapolates his faith upon others and places his status as a "Christian" higher than his citizenshihp, then certainly he will offend and be deserving of criticism. By the way, tell us more of your "Christian agenda" so the rest of the nation can duly protect themselves from y'all.

jonas_opines 5 years, 6 months ago

I'm afraid you're probably wasting your time. He has Way too much invested in his personal paradigm of the world to bother thinking about it any further.

Pastor_Bedtime 5 years, 5 months ago

BAA, I was responding to the assertion that any opposition to the Christain Supremacy movement is coming from the left or from a "party of athiests." There are many moderate Republicans and Christians alike who don't subscribe to this religious agenda, but it's a better spin to label them as radical extremists. And so majority rules? Your supposed 77% of self-identified Christians certainly includes folks who don't subscribe to the Christian Supremacy movement, and who cringe when folks like you assume their faith means a blank subscription to whatever agenda the radical evangelists dream up. So continue to marginalize yourselves ~ you're zealotry speaks for itself.

Pastor_Bedtime 5 years, 5 months ago

But Carl is doing far more than excercising his "constitutional right to worship God in in whatever way he wishes". Poor little picked upon Carl is advocating the perpetuation of a system which victimizes others. Christian bullies attack and then hide behind their sacred bible. I don't see Muslims or Buddhists declaring USA to be their soverign turf like the Christians. And the modern Christian agenda of domination, just like Cromwell and the Puritans, just like those burning the witches at Salem, just like the anti-communist crusaders of the fifties, is just as harmful to the USA as any Sharia law.

asixbury 5 years, 5 months ago

Buddhists and many other religions do not believe in trying to convert (or force) people to believe what they do. Christians, on the other hand, are prolific with their efforts to force their religion on people. Not every Christian does this, but as a whole, it is something the church supports through their actions. Oh, and Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion considering they don't worship anything.

Jayhawk1958 5 years, 5 months ago

Our "Christians" tortured at Abu Grabe.

Greg Cooper 5 years, 6 months ago

Carl, I take deep umbrage at your premise. Religion has nothing to do with the legal concept of marriage, nor does one's eligion or lack thereof make a damned bit of difference in what marriage is.

Marriage, the legal contract, is an agreement between humans and human legal institutions. It has nothing to do with religion. What you are confusing, and trying to foist off on everyone, is the sanctity with which religious institutions endow the legal contract. Those religions may or may not recognize the legal contract between two humans not of the same sex, but that has no relationship to the legal contract.

Now, the real argument should be that the legal entities who enact laws, not the religiious institutions which espouse moral rules, are responsible for the legal contract and who is eligible to be bound by them. If you want, you can rail endlessly about your beliefs as to what God thinks about the legal contract, but your argument stops at the door of the legal definition of marriage as defined by the state.

I a ma practicing Christian and have views diamet rically opposed to yours. Am I wrong? Are you wrong? Neither of us knows, nor will until the day of judgement. What I do know is that it is not a Christian value to devalue the llives of those whose beliefs, whose affections and love, lies in a direction not of your liking. I do know that you believe strongly in your stand, but so do I and many of the non-traditional couples you rail against. Right and wrong are relative terms not to be decided by us. But I do know that wrong equates making the lives of others better. That you do not do by attempting to make them less than they are, by trying to make them less than you simply because you don't like their sexual orientation.

Get off the bandwagon, Carl. You are not God, and I'm not at all sure you represent him very well when you try to convince homosexuals that they deserve less than the blessings bestowed on you by your version of God. Hearty congratulations on your upcoming anniversary (and many more, I hope), but let everyone have the same choice and rights you have enjoyed in your married years. But why, in God's name, do you wish them to have any less than you in the company of another human? That can not be right, and I will always believe that Christian values do not preclude homosexual marriage, nor should you.

DeckDoctors 5 years, 6 months ago

Dear caught, You can clear up any confusion you are having on this subject if #1. You are willing to accept God's word on it, and #2. Read the Bible and search for the exact passages that tell us it is a sin to be a homosexual. Leviticus is a good place in the Old Testament and you can read 1 Timothy 1:10 for a start. What you think or what I think matters very little when God decides our fate, it is what God says that we need to pay attention to.

jafs 5 years, 6 months ago

  1. Whether or not the Bible is "God's word" is highly debatable.

  2. Read the rest of Leviticus and you will find many proscribed activities - do you follow all of those rules? If not, why not, and why focus on one thing?

DeckDoctors 5 years, 6 months ago

You can debate with the Devil till the day he drags you to hell, but as far as God is concerned the Bible is His word and Jesus is his son and those who reject him have a horrible fate of eternal punishment. Don't play around with words or debating when your eternal place of rest is at stake.

jafs 5 years, 6 months ago

I notice a complete absence of a substantive response to my post, combined with an attempt to scare me into complying with your belief system.

Not very convincing.

But, I'll stop debating with you, since you may be the Devil, and that seems to be a bad idea.

Corey Williams 5 years, 6 months ago

So do you follow the rest of the laws laid down in Leviticus or not? Do you believe that marital infidelity should result in death? (leviticus 20:10) Or how about Deuteronomy 17:2-7 where it tells you to kill anyone who believes in a different kind of god? You can't take one without taking them all.

DeckDoctors 5 years, 6 months ago

Christ came to be the sacrificial lamb so that animal sacrifice would no longer be needed. So much of the laws were made complete in Christ, however, Jesus did not alter God's judgment of homosexuals, or any sinner just because he paid for the sin for those who believe. You will find plenty of teaching in the New Testament alone if you want to use it to see the mind of God toward homosexuality or sin. I choose to follow the unchanging Christ, not what you or any other liberal wants to call holy.

asixbury 5 years, 6 months ago

You should read this with an open mind and see maybe your view isn't entirely correct in this instance:

SnakeFist 5 years, 6 months ago

Mancityfooty, you are exactly right, but you will never get a Christian to answer your questions. They pick and choose from the Bible only what supports their ignorance and irrational biases.

KSense 5 years, 5 months ago

In the Old Testament there were 3 kinds of laws: Ceremonial Law: This kind of law relates specifically to Israel's worship (I.e. LEVITICUS 1:1-3). It's primary purpose was to point forward to Jesus Christ. Therefore, these laws are no longer necessary after Jesus's death & resurrection. While we are no longer bound by ceremonial laws, the principle behind them, to worship and love a holy God, still apply. I have more on the other two kinds of laws but no time to finish it now.

KSense 5 years, 5 months ago

Here's the other two: Civil Law: This type of law dictated Israel's daily living (Dueteronomy 24:10 & 11 for example) Because modern society and culture are so radically different some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. But the principles behind the commands should guide our conduct. Moral law: This sort of law is the direct command of God. For example, the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) It requires strict obedience. It reveals the nature and will of God and it still applies to us today. We are to obey this moral law, not to obtain salvation but to live in ways pleasing to God.

kawdog 5 years, 5 months ago

I really believe here the matter in dispute is a question of which legal unions should be set apart by the name, "marriage." I believe that most who oppose applying the term to homosexual unions do not necessarily oppose ceding to these unions all the rights and privileges of marriage as allowed by the state, save the name itself. Yet the name marriage itself connotes a lowest-common-denominator theism that itself warrants grave scrutiny by those who would maintain a distinction between church and state. Rather than quibble about whether gays are entitled to "marriage," let's question whether "marriage" is an entity distinct from a legal contract in all other matters equal save in name. Granting the contrary would nullify the objection to applying the term to all civil unions. If we hold it to be distinct, despite identity in all other aspects save name, then the state has no business peddling anything called by such name to any couple, gay or straight. Under such circumstances all unions called marriages by the state should be called civil unions and the term "marriage" be reserved as an epithet applicable at will by common consent within the group--religious or secular--choosing to apply it, but conferring no additional legal benefits.

jafs 5 years, 5 months ago

I think you're probably wrong, and that most who oppose gay "marriage" would also oppose civil unions that grant the same legal rights and privileges as marriages.

After all, gay people aren't demanding that churches marry them, if they're opposed to that.

akuna 5 years, 6 months ago

I want (and our founding fathers wanted) Christian Laws to be enforced by our government about as much as I want Sharia Laws to be enforced by our government, which is to say not at all.

The government should provide the bare minimum laws for our citizens to peacefully coexist. Beyond that, if your religion wants to impose greater control over you, that is your choice. Just don't inflict your religion on the rest of society. I know I won't.

Our founding fathers were brave enough to want to create an equal society. They fell short of living up to the standards they set, but they had faith that future generations would fair better at treating all citizens of this great country equal. Let's live up to the standards set by our founders. Let's do them proud. Equality for all... including gay people that want to get married.

meggers 5 years, 6 months ago

Congratulations on your long marriage, Carl.

If you consider Jesus your 'Superglue', that's certainly your prerogative. That prerogative ends where another person's rights begin. You don't get to choose what marriage means for other people. Bigotry cloaked in religion is still bigotry.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 5 years, 6 months ago

Wow, I was going to make some great comments on this curious letter to the ed, but most of you have done a great job for me.

As most persons who bother to educate themselves to the facts would know, the "Holy Bible" was a creation of King James I of England by direction to the Council of Hampton Court in 1611, The king wanted a bible translation that matched his view of an imaginary divine power that would be in line with the tenants of theChurch of England. Failure to act acccording to the king's command would result with the ever loving king having your heads cut off.

The "Holy Bible" then is the religious notion of the King of England in 1611. That is not to indicate that the content is invalid, there are good and useful truths in the "holy" sctriptures as long as you recognize that most all of them were created by men under the sword of the king and should be regarded with sitable concern as to their source. "God" and the "devil" are curious notions of seventeenth century man and his attempts to explain things that he had no idea of the source of.

In closing (thank you!) the notions that so many people have about using the "Holy Bible" as a stick to whack the non-belivers is parallel to the muslim notions of "infidels".

Ron Holzwarth 5 years, 6 months ago

You are way off the mark. All of the above refers only to the King James translation, which is very well known for its great inaccuracies. King James of England in 1611 has nothing to do with the Bible today.

There are much more accurate translations into English available. The Tanakh in Hebrew, with a few passages in Aramaic in the book of Daniel, is extant, as is the original New Testament in Greek.

voevoda 5 years, 6 months ago

If Mr. Burkhead is right, and God promotes marriage and the Devil is trying to destroy it, logically that would mean that it's the Devil who is trying to prevent gay marriage, and those who advocate for it are aligning themselves with God.

Pastor_Bedtime 5 years, 6 months ago

Christian Supremacists have no notion of an American melting pot... in their mind all good citizens should assimilate to their faith. And when they when they think that many of their fellow Republicans share their agenda of domination (let alone many outside the party), they are frankly deluded and only serve to marginalize themselves.

Armored_One 5 years, 6 months ago

Religion has nothing to do with this.

I am still waiting for a legal reason to deny an American citizen the ability to enter into a legal contract with another American citizen? Other than the legal age requirement, I cannot think of a legal reason to oppose this issue. .

pizzapete 5 years, 6 months ago

I'm really enjoying how Republicans when asked about gay marriage will answer that they believe marriage is between one man and one woman. Is there a movement for marriage between three guys and one girl or one guy and five girls they are trying to oppose, too? It's particularly funny to me comming from Romney considering his Mormon faith. The Old Testament seems to clearly allow a man to have as many wives as he can afford. I think that's the kind of traditional marriage we should be promoting here.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 6 months ago

Does this mean I can sucker more than one man into giving me the life style to which I would like to become accustomed?

pizzapete 5 years, 6 months ago

If we're talking about consenting adults and you can pull that off, I'd say go for it. I know I had trouble finding even one woman I could convice to marry me, so good luck.

Maddy Griffin 5 years, 6 months ago

Whatever happened to "all men are created equal"??Not Christian men or Jewish men or Muslim, Buddhist,etc. All men.

Armstrong 5 years, 6 months ago

The left just wants to equal, after that they want to be more ,more, more equal. There is no end to the I want crowd

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

Damn it, tange, you know me too well. I fear there is no mystery left and from here on our relationship will fizzle into boredom.

Your second sentence put me exactly into the frame of mind of which you speak and your last paragraph made me laugh so loud that the cat, had I one, would have run and hidden under the bed and refused to come out until yesterday.

Since I don't believe there is a God/god/gods, I don't define it/her/him. (So you're wrong.)

I'm more concerned with why there are lumps of red clay in my garden. This isn't Oklahoma.

Question: Is your God supernatural?

Linda Endicott 5 years, 5 months ago

I've long had a theory about that red clay thing...

I don't think Kansas has any dirt of its the winter, when the wind blows from the north, we have Nebraska the summer, when the wind blows from the south, we have Oklahoma dirt...

Can't prove it, but it makes sense to me...:)

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

Hmmm, crazyks, I'll have to think about that. What color is Nebraska dirt? It's been a long time since I ventured up that way.

jafs 5 years, 5 months ago

If you don't have a definition of God, how do you know whether or not you believe in him?

jafs 5 years, 5 months ago

I thought of that - just got lazy :-)

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

jafs, you're asking the wrong question. I don't believe that God exists. That's all. I'm not saying that s/he doesn't. I just have seen no proof. If I had a definition, that would indicate some sort of belief or theory of existence.

No, that doesn't make me an agnostic.

If one doesn't hold fast to a particular religion or exposition of God, then why does it matter?

There have been some studies that seem to indicate that belief in religion is genetic. Since my skepticism showed up at an early age, I tend to think that might be true.

jafs 5 years, 5 months ago

In order to disbelieve in God, you must have some idea what the word refers to, otherwise it has no meaning to say you don't believe in him/her/it.

You wouldn't say "I don't believe in wieorijsliodlfk" if that term has no meaning at all to you - it wouldn't make any sense.

Kate Rogge 5 years, 5 months ago

Not believing in wieorijsliodlfk would have a context if a lot of people around you kept talking about it all the time (especially when its putative son was born). I don't have to define it for myself other than thinking that others' definitions are simply outlandish and unconvincing.

jafs 5 years, 5 months ago

Then you're just using their definitions to disbelieve in God - same thing, you need a definition and a meaning for the word to decide what you think of it.

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

You'll never find me.

I looked up asymptote---suspecting that it might be a word you've made up. Even though a picture was included with the definition, I still don't understand it.

My imaginary cat is still under the bed, refusing to eat until I explain asymptote to her. She's also mad about black holes.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 6 months ago

Why is it that people who post on here refuse to take religion seriously and have such a deep seated need to make fun of it. To me the wisest man I ever heard or read on this subject was Joseph Campbell, he taught at Sarah Lawrence, wrote a number of fine books and had two shows on PBS. He was a Catholic who considered Chartes to be his home church. He had a great respect for every faith and every culture and traveled around the world talking to people and learning about them. To me that is the ideal. He firmly believed that faith should inform every act but refused to define what that would mean for the individual.

Corey Williams 5 years, 5 months ago

It's not that people here need to make fun of religions. Let's look at your example. You say that he had "...a great respect for every faith and every culture and traveled around the world talking to people and learning about them." Would you say that is the typical behavior of the average christian from America?
Maybe people aren't making fun of religion as much as they are making fun of some of the followers.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

No, I would not say that, which is just one reason I am so impressed by Joseph Campbell. He also wrote about Native American religions of which there are quite a few.
There is a whole universe out there beyond the traditional Christian belief.

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

"God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all human categories of thought." Now there's a definition I can believe in.

Tyger likes it too.

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

The gap is not only unbridgeable, but uncrossable and the answer is unknowable.

"we make our own heaven, our own hell, tryin' to get over to the other side"

One can understand that people created gods to account for phenomena than they couldn't understand or control. To think that there is something behind the mystery is comforting. Even more comforting is the thought that that entity looks out for one personally. And even more comforting is the thought that one has total insight into and can speak for that entity. The result is perplexing, as seen in the letter above.

The question for me---inadvertently posed by a family member preemptively trying to convince me that there is a God when I had not thought to doubt it---is: Who/what created God? If God always existed, as some would say, then why can't the universe have done the same? I can see physical evidence of the universe, God not so much.

Religion developed as a way to control events by appeasing the gods, and as a way to control people---again reference above letter. We now make secular laws to control people whose behavior is not in keeping with what we deem acceptable for a workable society. We try to use reason rather than "God said."

I have no desire to convince anyone that there is no God, quite frankly I don't care what you believe or disbelieve, but I will not have other people force their God onto me---what that actually means is that they are trying to force their own will onto me and they hide behind "God."

What baffles me is why so many people seem to be so disturbed by atheism.

Tyger thinks she is God. I tried to tell her once that she wasn't and that didn't end well.

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

I have to go put mulch on my garden before the neighbors get home from church---don't want to offend them.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

The mystics that Joe learned from lived in remote areas with few distractions. They spent their entire lives learning and then refining how to get in touch with that which is beyond our physical reality. When you look into the abyss the abyss looks back at you. (N.) That is not meant to be a scary thought but one that impels you to keep looking until you find and contact that which is. Jesus said that he was the door and that if you knocked it would be opened. I take that to mean he was trying to teach the same things that Joe's mystics were, he wanted his followers to go though the door and beyond, in other words, he was the beginning and not the destination.

SnakeFist 5 years, 5 months ago

" should inform every act but refused to define what that would mean for the individual."

Sounds great. If Christians would mind their own business in that way, no one would have a problem with them. Unfortunately, they want to impose their faith on others, which is the opposite of your ideal.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

Seriously? The thing is that the Christians, Catholic and Protestant, who do not impose their faith on others but enjoy a dialog where ideas flow back and forth are seldom the ones that you read about in the paper. If it bleeds it leads applies to the church as well as other news.

rubberband 5 years, 5 months ago

I try to read these LTEs, but all I can hear are the words of Charlie Brown's teacher: "Wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah..."

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

Did a "new" poster with Cool in her/his name who posted in a similar manner as somebody else who recently ceased to be heard from already get disappearededed?

I (stupidly) responded to her/him and now, even though my posts appear on my comment page, when I click on them they don't show up on the thread. It's a mystery.

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 5 months ago

"It's a mystery." Kinda like God. Maybe we should give him the Hugo Award.

woodscolt 5 years, 5 months ago

karl burkhead. Only two words you need to read on this diatribe. The only two more menacing words (barely) are fred phelps.

Jayhawk1958 5 years, 5 months ago

My God loves unconditionally, from birth on. If God loves us, then why would he put us through so-called "original sin" and devils and demons?

Cait McKnelly 5 years, 5 months ago

"If there's anything I've learned about modern "Christianity," it's that S/Paul trumps Jesus every time."

Dingdingding we have a winner!

Lartist5 5 years, 5 months ago

Claiming gods thoughts in a issue of marriage is a dumb as saying "my socks told me that marriage was to only be between beetles and salt." Both rediculous and unprovable

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

The mystics that Joe learned from lived in remote areas with few distractions. They spent their entire lives learning and then refining how to get in touch with that which is beyond our physical reality. When you look into the abyss the abyss looks back at you. (N.) That is not meant to be a scary thought but one that impels you to keep looking until you find and contact that which is. Jesus said that he was the door and that if you knocked it would be opened. I take that to mean he was trying to teach the same things that Joe's mystics were, he wanted his followers to go though the door and beyond, in other words, he was the beginning and not the destination.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

That guy changed into a cockroach because that is how he came to see himself, because that is how his family treated him. His sister had something seriously wrong with her mind. What was with that smile at the end? Anyhoo, maybe we will all be reincarnated at who we see ourselves as, and I don't mean when we are in public, but way down where the rubber meets the road.

Chris Golledge 5 years, 5 months ago

Apparently Carl is comfortable with using the government to impose his religious beliefs on others.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

Someone out there got Andrews message. They are debating whether he or Melanie best represents humans. Will now look at third iteration. God, Ian!

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

Well, now I'm crying. I had not heard Melanie for so long, I had forgot how songs like hers meant so much to us back in the day. The picture of Martin Luther King, jr. talking to LBJ, the Texan looks totally concentrated and focused on the discussion and King is leaning forward because this is something that matters, not just to the two of them, but to all of us. It is interesting that those who are closest to the struggles of the poor and hurt and lamed and who are in that fight are the ones who are ultimately smiling. They don't hate, they stop hate. Thank you so much so sharing all of these.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 5 months ago

I love Melanie, she knows of what she sings. The image at the beginning is of snow covered fir trees in Finland which take strange shapes in the wind. I came across them somewhere a few days ago, on the web I mean to say. Jung believed in synchronicity if I have it right. So this is not just coincidence, it means something, right?

jafs 5 years, 5 months ago

Why is that your question?

One could ask the same about straight women who are more masculine, and straight men who are more effeminate.

What difference does it make?

verity 5 years, 5 months ago

We have all just made sure that the LJW will continue to publish letters from the above person by copiously commenting on them.


Patricia Davis 5 years, 5 months ago

Marriage is a civil act, licensed by the state. If you get a divorce, you go to court not to church. If people who believe in god want to be married in church, so be it. They are no more married than a couple married by a justice of the peace. Some people need superglue to stay married. Others don't.

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