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Opinion

Opinion

Abortion coverage

March 27, 2012

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To the editor:

This week, I received a letter from Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas stating that because of a 2011 Kansas law, I had a one-time “opportunity” to opt in for coverage for elective abortion. The cost is extra and spelled out. So now, for $6.95 per month, we can get away with murder, in this case the murder of innocent, unborn children. Shame on Blue Cross, shame on our country, shame on all of us who stand by and watch this further step toward what happened in 1930s Nazi Germany as the U.S. government legitimizes taking the lives of those who cannot speak for themselves. 

Just because it is legal doesn’t make it right. There is eventually a higher judge to whom we all will individually and as a nation give an account. Dietrich Bonhoeffer said we must not render to Caesar that which is God’s. Aborted children have no voice because they are not given time to learn to speak. Who might they have become?  Would they have become truly great presidents, scientists, educators or physicians?  We will never know. 

In Obamacare there will be rationing for seniors, the lack of choice in medical care for many and perhaps even the “gracious” euthanizing of those who are too great a burden for the “healthy” in our society. The result is a caste system where certain elite and government officials such as presidents and congressmen will have any care they desire and the rest of us will be subject to decisions made by government workers who must rein in costs. 

After spending eight years in one of Hitler’s concentration camps, pastor Martin Niemoller poignantly described the insidious, downward slide in Germany: “First they came for the Socialists and I did not speak out, because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists and I did not speak out, because I was not a Trade Unionist.  Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew. And then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me.” Next they will come for you and for me.  Better think hard about it. I am.

Comments

deec 2 years, 9 months ago

Blah blah blah murder blah Nazi blah blah the babies blah blah blah. If you don't like abortion, don't have one, but keep your nose out of my and every other woman's crotch. Its never enough with you nutballs, is it? You wanted abortion coverage off regular coverage and you got it, and now you're complaining about it. My body belongs to me, not you, or the state. MYOB.

gr 2 years, 9 months ago

Are you also in support of a woman having the choice of being vaccinated or not?

deec 2 years, 9 months ago

Vaccinated for what? I don't see the connection.

chootspa 2 years, 9 months ago

Dunno, is she likely to give me a case of pregnancy? No? Then I'd say the two issues are completely unrelated.

gr 2 years, 9 months ago

But it IS related regarding this statement: "My body belongs to me, not you, or the state. MYOB. "

Does a woman have a right to do anything or not to do anything with her body? Is it someone else's business to manage her body and tell her what to do or not do with it?

Firefighter10 2 years, 9 months ago

You go girl! We should have the right to govern our own bodies! As a zygote, its a clump of cells not a baby!! It is more of a parasite at that point, not talking and cooing as the Republicans would have you believe. No woman should be forced to put her life at risk for an unborn life.

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 9 months ago

Definitely not in favor of "killing babies", unless they are, well...gay.

gr 2 years, 9 months ago

What rights do gays not have that others have?

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Tthe right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No openly gay military service (until 2011). Sodomy laws. Gay marriage prohibition. Gay adoption rights. Harassment and discrimination. Hate crimes.

gr 2 years, 9 months ago

All those laws apply equally to everyone.

gr 2 years, 9 months ago

The law applies equally to everyone that you can only marry one of opposite sex. And we're told that homosexuals can and do marry those of the opposite sex and have children. A right they already have and have had just like everyone else.

gr 2 years, 9 months ago

So, if you expand the definition of marriage, then heteros can marry someone of the same sex which would be expanding their rights. And if you expand rights to homos, then would you also expand rights to ALL? Or do you say that is different?

How are you on tax rates? Right now, they are discriminatory. People can love to make anything they want, but some are discriminated against by have to pay a higher tax penalty rate. Why do you think that is fair? Face it. Life isn't always fair, especially if you think you need more rights than others.

gr 2 years, 9 months ago

I have to give it to you on taxes. I'm surprised as most on the issue somehow think it is somehow proper and fair to charge people unequal rates.

But, if you are going to expand the definition of marriage, what if I'm in love with both my sister and brother? Do I have a right to marry those I am in love with? Or are you going to say I don't have as many "rights" as homosexuals? Why should they have more rights than I?

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

Like it or not, current Kansas law is against ALL straights, gays, bisexuals and transgenders marrying their brothers and/or sisters. Sexual orientation is irrelevant.

And you darned well know this, so your straw man argument is just for the purpose of being arbitrary (and trying to be clever)...NOT for having an intelligent discussion.

But, if you still want to argue apples and oranges?

Yes...you should have the right to marry someone you're in love with, assuming you're both of legal age to marry and you both want to marry each other.

Indeed, that's what some folks here have been arguing for.

We believe that the right to marry should EQUALLY apply to straights, gays, bisexuals and transgenders. (And you and your brothers and sisters will fit into one of those categories.)

However, you seem to have conveniently forgotten that...

Laws about incest apply to ALL. They don't discriminate between straights, gays, bisexuals and/or transgenders.

So...if you want the right to marry your brother and/or sister, you'll have to change incest laws.

Indeed, the only reason in your situation that you'd also have to change the sexual orientation laws would be to marry your brother. Otherwise, once you changed the incest laws, you'd be legally free to marry your sister.

Laws against polygamy apply to ALL. They don't discriminate between straights, gays, bisexuals and/or transgenders.

So...if you wanted the right to marry two of your sisters, you'd "only" have to change the incest and polygamy laws.

However, if you wanted the right to marry your sister and your brother...well, you'd not only have to change the incest and polygamy laws but, also, the sexual orientation laws.

So, see? You would be discriminated against by wanting to marry your brother, rather than your sister :-) But you'd only be discriminated against because it would be a gay, not straight, marriage.

mom_of_three 2 years, 9 months ago

repeating the "obamacare" scary lies and comparing abortion to nazi germany. Hardly accurate.
You are afraid of "taking away the rights of those who cannot speak," but you have no problem taking the rights away from women who can speak for themselves and their bodies.
I could never have an abortion myself, but I can not say that other women can not. I can't take away their rights to their bodies, no matter what.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 9 months ago

Without sperm there neither be pregnancy nor the chance for abortion. Therefore men must be the culprits.

Why so much focus on the women?

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 9 months ago

Another opportunity for BAA to name-call and remind us all how radical extremists are attempting to mandate their faith upon the nation. People need the government to hold their hands and reproductive decisions need to be made by the Feds in their world. "Traditional America" means meek acceptance of your domination by the Churchies.

08Champs 2 years, 9 months ago

I don't believe that abortion has anything to do with religion - either you believe this is a women's right or it's not. If BAA is going to say that only atheists have abortions...well. Not hardly. If Christians, conservatives and "traditional" Americans didn't have abortions (the woman and her partner in the act) then what would the rate be? BAA is implying, as always, that abortion belongs solely to Democrats. And that Democrats aren't Christians or "traditional." Bunch of hooey.

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 9 months ago

That's very correct. And the assumption that those who don't act in lockstep with BAA's radical agenda are solely aligned with the Democratic party is equally false. Many Republicans and independent folks don't drink the right-wing kool-aid. They are level-headed, productive, tax-paying citizens who don't feel the need to have a government expert directed by his bible to control women's wombs. But they will be portrayed as radical leftists or Socialists aiming to destroy the nation.

grammaddy 2 years, 9 months ago

Isn't it funny how corporations are now people, but a woman's body is the property of the state ?BTW Abortion was legalized almost 40 years ago. Why do women have to keep fighting for the right to make decisions concerning our OWN bodies??

asixbury 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm always concerned with my body. It's my body; no one else has a right to tell me what I can and cannot do with it. How would you feel if someone tried to tell you what to do with your body? Is there even a single law in this country restricting what men can do with themselves, as long as it does not affect someone else?

pocket_of_sunshine 2 years, 9 months ago

How can you say that? Do you know that for sure? Do you know, for a fact, that every pregnant woman, EVERYWHERE, was not on birth control? Do you know for CERTAIN that mistakes never happen when using contraceptives? Didn't think so... Do you ever stop to consider the fetus that is not/will not develop? What of that mother? What about her medical right to make a decision for her body and that of a fetus that will not survive outside of the womb? Didn't think so... Not every abortion is because of some unprotected lovin' between two people. There are many reasons behind the decision and each woman should be able to make that decision for herself.

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

I think most of them were concerned about their bodies. It just happened to be a slightly different part of their bodies. Same area. Different biological responses :-)

08Champs 2 years, 9 months ago

Why do you always make it sound like sex is some sinister act that is punishable by baby? I don't get it.

somedude20 2 years, 9 months ago

Because Craig/Foley Republicans think women are yucky with their lady parts and women are also not cocky enough for them

KayCee 2 years, 9 months ago

Ignoring medical science doesn't change the facts. Every human person is a walking 'clump of cells'.

chootspa 2 years, 9 months ago

You're right. Ignoring medical science doesn't change the facts, but you repeatedly do it in order to further your unscientific argument.

Ragingbear 2 years, 9 months ago

That is just horrible. A Roto-Rooter and blender works much better.

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

That would seem to be the logical solution to her own particular moral dilemma. Unfortunately, the operative word is "logical".

And the Niemoller quote? Schmidt apparently doesn't realize that it's actually an argument AGAINST her position. That it provides an argument that we should NOT sit idly by while the state takes control of women's bodies.

Michael LoBurgio 2 years, 9 months ago

Susan P. Schmidt Affordable Healthcare Act

Kansas Insurance Commissioner Sandy Praeger believes there are too many good things in the Affordable Care Act to be overturned by the court system or Congress after the presidential election.

“I think it will be very hard to overturn the law,” she said. “When you really pin people down, there are lots of aspects of this law that people like.”

Among them:

• Elimination of annual and lifetime limits on insurance coverage. She said often those who need insurance coverage the most can’t get it, and that’s why so many Americans end up in bankruptcy. She said medical care is the No. 1 reason for U.S. bankruptcy.

• Elimination of pre-existing medical conditions. People will no longer be denied insurance coverage because of illness or previous health conditions. “Today, you most likely wouldn’t get coverage if you’ve had cancer. You would be denied,” she said.

• No co-pays or deductibles on preventive services, such as annual wellness exams. “Early detection of a disease or problem can be cost-effective, and the outcomes are often better. It’s a win-win,” she said.

• Allowing children to stay on their health insurance plan until age 26. She said about 2.5 million children are now insured nationally because of this provision, which already has been implemented.

“The bottom line is we need to get to a point where everyone can get the health care they need,” Praeger said. Not only is it a moral thing, she said, but costs will continue to escalate for those who pay for insurance if something isn’t done.

She said insurance companies estimate that 25 to 30 percent of the premiums they charge are to help cover uncompensated care.

Michael LoBurgio 2 years, 9 months ago

Health Insurers: We’ll Deny Coverage For Pre-Existing Conditions If Health Mandate Is Repealed

Health-insurance officials say that if the mandate is repealed, “their first priority would be persuading members of Congress to repeal two of the law’s major insurance changes: a requirement to cover everyone regardless of his or her medical history, and limits on how much insurers can vary premiums based on age.” Their next step would be to “set rewards for people who purchase insurance voluntarily and sanction those who don’t.”

Other possible alternatives to the individual mandate that insurers are weighing:

  • Penalize those who enroll outside of short annual windows; deny treatment for specific conditions, especially right after a policy is purchased

  • Reward certain insurance buyers, such as offering much lower premiums for younger and healthier people

  • Expand employers’ role in automatically enrolling employees for health insurance

  • Urge credit-rating firms to use health-insurance status as a factor in determining individuals’ ratings

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03/19/447157/health-insurers-well-deny-coverage-for-pre-existing-conditions-if-health-mandate-is-repealed/

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 9 months ago

I call a Godwin. It's actually rare to find one in print. Someone should take a snapshot.

Kathy Getto 2 years, 9 months ago

God Dag, Gandalf!

another comparison is in order, perhaps. Seimens = gas chambers= Prescott Bush "bidness" is "bidness", I guess.

The LTE writer ends with a wonderful quote - it is so sad she does not comprehend its meaning.

She should try it this way and see how it fits:

First they came for the Socialists and I did not speak out, because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Gays/Lesbians and I did not speak out, because I was not Gay nor a Lesbian. Then they came for the Women and I did not speak out, because I was not a Woman. And then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me

melwetzel 2 years, 9 months ago

The great majority of late-term abortions are in cases of danger to the mother's life and non-viable fetuses. Do you think a woman is just going to carefree put off the decision and decide at the end BAM have a convenient abortion.

Dr. George Tiller is dead, or you could ask him. Women who seek a late term abortion are often married, and facing health issues, and making decisions either by themselves or with their families about exchanging one life for another.

It's lovely how you think it is just a bunch of promiscuous women who carry a baby full term, then decide they should have used birth control. Can you conceive of how a real woman would think?

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

TWO! TWO! TWO! Out of the millions of abortions performed he can name TWO! Good for you... Now go mind your own business.

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

But she wants to ban all abortion. Not just late-term abortion. All abortion.

That distinction DOES make a difference in how countless people view abortion.

Lumping all abortion under the late-term abortion umbrella is just as bogus as lumping supporters of abortion rights with "pro-abortion extremists" under the pro-choice umbrella.

It also diminishes the value of your argument. Why would you want to do that?

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

"Why would you want to do that?" Because they're a blowhard and an idiot, maybe?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

She forgot to mention the black helicopters that Hitler never had at his disposal.

akt2 2 years, 9 months ago

They must send it out to everyone female that has BCBS. We received one addressed to the 50 year old female and one addressed to the 16 year old female. Regardless, I still like BCBS of KS. They are easy to deal with and the providers in this area are all contracted with them.

rtwngr 2 years, 9 months ago

Thank you, Susan, for speaking out. There are people on this blog that are going to call you names and and treat you with utter disrespect. Please ignore their ignorance and continue to make this fight when every you feel it is necessary. There are many of us, as a matter of fact a majority of us, that think abortion is an abomination to mankind. May God bless you and keep you, may He shine His countenance upon you.

KayCee 2 years, 9 months ago

Right on rtwngr. The ignorance abounds on this thread, but that's no surprise. Susan speaks the facts and the lefties howl.

asixbury 2 years, 9 months ago

Facts? What facts? That she doesn't believe women should have the right to choose for themselves? I would never get an abortion myself (unless medically necessary), but no one has the right to tell anyone what they can do to their own body. You don't like abortions, no one is forcing you to have one. Where is the problem in this?

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Your gawd is the biggest abortionist of all! Spontaneous abortion, or miscarriage, is the term used for pregnancy that ends on its own within the first 20 weeks of gestation. Miscarriage is the most common type of pregnancy loss, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist.

The following mythical verses do not indicate gawd values fetuses, or anyone else. It is clear that killing anyone opposing the Lord was permitted and that included innocent fetuses and children.

Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant." Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!" Genesis 38:24

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones. And kill every woman who has slept with a man." Numbers 31:17

"Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling." 1 Samuel 15:3

"Dash their children, and rip up their women with child." 2 Kings 8:12 "At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women." 2 Kings 15:16

"Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished." Isaiah 13:16 "They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children." Isaiah 13:18

"Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children." Ezekiel 9:6

"Give them, O LORD — what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry." Hosea 9:14

"Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:16

"When men strive together and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined according to as the woman's husband shall lay upon him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." Exodus 21: 22-25

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate persons to the LORD by giving equivalent values, set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; and if it is a female, set her value at thirty shekels. If it is a person between the ages of five and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels and of a female at ten shekels. If it is a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels] of silver. If it is a person sixty years old or more, set the value of a male at fifteen shekels and of a female at ten shekels." Leviticus, 27: 1-8 [NOTE: Babies have just monetary value, not moral value, and no value is placed on fetuses or babies less than one month old.]

"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:8-9

"Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." Deuteronomy 22: 21 [Stoned to death because she was not a virgin on her wedding night. No exceptions for pregnancy]

Parents are permitted to put to death disobedient children:

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If God does not have a problem with disobedient children being put to death. I don't see how he would be angered by the killing of fetuses.

jafs 2 years, 9 months ago

How about war and the death penalty?

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

Few things I need to express.

  1. The Christian conservative anti-abortionist are hypocrites. Most strongly support war and the protection of our "freedom" by killing men, women, and children in foreign countries. It's ok with them to kill in war but not ok for a women to have an abortion for whatever her reason may be.

  2. The inequality of women in the workplace and society has already placed them in an inferior position to men. They do not need more restrictions placed on them that may prevent them from living life. Let's not overlook women that have become impregnated by rapist, incest, and abusive men. Let's face it, men make the laws that prevent women from having their free will and choices. It's also men that are not responsible sperm donors, leaving women with all of the ramifications of sex whether it was consensual or not.

  3. The Affordable Care Act by Obama is a step in the right direction and should not be discredited because the religious conservatives disagree with minor items (i.e. zero copay for contraception). Fact is, the majority of states already require insurance companies to cover the pill, but the Affordable Care Act just eliminates the copay.

  4. Pro-choice does not equate Atheist. In fact, Atheist are typically more compassionate and caring than most "religious" folks.

somedude20 2 years, 9 months ago

"There is eventually a higher judge to whom we all will individually and as a nation give an account. "

Yeppers, just like the Greeks believed in Zeus and earthquakes and thunder are caused by unhappy gods

Before you form policies that you think will appease you god, first find out if this god is real. Grow up and get your kiddie beliefs out of my life!

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

+1, just because Christians believe the fairytale they've been told doesn't make them right in their thinking and belief. Most disagree with the Phelps clan and their antics, but to most non-Christians the religious ramblings and beliefs of the mainstream religions are just as disturbing and offensive.

It's an extremely weak argument If the only defense to legislation is based on religious belief.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

And that's why the constitution requires separation of church (fiction) and state (fact).

ferrislives 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm thoroughly confused by this letter:

1) You and others like you rally to pass a law requiring private health care companies in Kansas to separate abortion coverage from regular coverage.

2) You complain when said private health care company follows the law that you wanted passed

What is wrong with you? How is this a good LTE? So you're saying that BCBS should be ashamed because they shouldn't follow the stupid law that non-thinking sheep helped get passed? It makes no sense!

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Welcome to religion! It makes no sense! Hope you enjoy the greatest show on Earth!

asixbury 2 years, 9 months ago

Doesn't Jesus say in the Christian bible to not judge one another? Is it not a form of judgment when you tell someone what they can and cannot do with their own body? You are basically telling them you don't trust their ability to decide what is best for them. You are telling them that you know better than they do. You are judging them, based on your belief that they are unable to make rational decisions. How very "un-Jesus" of you.

jayhawklawrence 2 years, 9 months ago

The abortion issue is a scam in the sense that Republicans use it to deceive people such as the writer of this letter.

There is no way to eliminate abortion by electing Republicans because no one benefits more from abortion than right wing Republicans. Why else would Republicans want to elimninate birth control? Rick Santorum only gets votes when his lies succeed in scaring people. He doesn't even try that hard to hide it. He is almost bragging about it.

The Republicans believe they can get elected simply by demonizing the competition. They don't believe average Americans are intelligent or qualified enough to know the facts because their agenda favors an elite 1%.

I doubt if they really care at all about any increase in the number of poor, single and pregnant women. If we want to decrease the number of abortions, we need to get politicians out of the debate because when it comes to actual women's rights, they have no heart or conscience.

The writer of this letter should consider that it is probably Democrats who have done the most to decrease the number of abortions in this country and who have done the most to care for the needs of women.

Armstrong 2 years, 9 months ago

Looks like the party of understanding and tolerance is in fine form this morning. Nov '12 real hope and change

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

So funny, I forgot to laugh. Do you know how to keep an idiot in suspense?

chootspa 2 years, 9 months ago

Man, if you didn't have a posting history, I'd have a hard time telling if you were being sarcastic or just ignorant.

somedude20 2 years, 9 months ago

one can only suffer fools for so long. we are tired of the people's (see not just the right, there are dumb leftists as well) idiocracy. if you want to believe in magic and fairies in a jar and stuff that only a six year old should believe, fine, that is your choice but stop imposing your dumb ideas on other people. Thank you!

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Your gawd is the biggest abortionist of all! Spontaneous abortion, or miscarriage, is the term used for pregnancy that ends on its own within the first 20 weeks of gestation. Miscarriage is the most common type of pregnancy loss, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist.

The following mythical verses do not indicate gawd values fetuses, or anyone else. It is clear that killing anyone opposing the Lord was permitted and that included innocent fetuses and children.

Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant." Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!" Genesis 38:24

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones. And kill every woman who has slept with a man." Numbers 31:17

"Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling." 1 Samuel 15:3

"Dash their children, and rip up their women with child." 2 Kings 8:12 "At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women." 2 Kings 15:16

"Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished." Isaiah 13:16 "They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children." Isaiah 13:18

"Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children." Ezekiel 9:6

"Give them, O LORD — what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry." Hosea 9:14

"Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." Hosea 13:16

"When men strive together and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined according to as the woman's husband shall lay upon him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." Exodus 21: 22-25

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate persons to the LORD by giving equivalent values, set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; and if it is a female, set her value at thirty shekels. If it is a person between the ages of five and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels and of a female at ten shekels. If it is a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels] of silver. If it is a person sixty years old or more, set the value of a male at fifteen shekels and of a female at ten shekels." Leviticus, 27: 1-8 [NOTE: Babies have just monetary value, not moral value, and no value is placed on fetuses or babies less than one month old.]

"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalm 137:8-9

"Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." Deuteronomy 22: 21 [Stoned to death because she was not a virgin on her wedding night. No exceptions for pregnancy]

Parents are permitted to put to death disobedient children:

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If God does not have a problem with disobedient children being put to death. I don't see how he would be angered by the killing of fetuses.

Armstrong 2 years, 9 months ago

The pull what I want from this and that verse post. Original idea. Maybe reading AND learing the Bible in it's entirety would be a better idea.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

Today's scoffing will be tomorrow's sorrow. Just giving you fair warning.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

The bible is pure and total fiction. You're a fool for reading and believing in that tripe.

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

Too bad almost no Christians actually do that. Indeed, based on studies, less than 10% of self-described Christians have even read the whole Bible, much less studied it.

Various studies have shown that Bible readership among Christians has actually dropped over the past 20 years. Now it hovers around 50%.

I'm curious as to how so many people think they can study a book they haven't even read all the way through...and believe that's OK.

And having looked at a couple of "Bible study guides" friends have for their particular Bible translations...well, maybe they should get together and talk themselves? Because even the study guides don't agree about what some of the same verses mean!

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

How do you mean mythical? You read them somewhere so that must mean they exist.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

I meant that the entire bible is based on a myth. Sorry to confuse you.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm still confused. I can't understand, when the enormity of creation is examined and we see how it's all so finely tuned down to the very smallest of atoms, that the idea is still prominent that their isn't an ounce of truth to the existence of God. If that isn't enough, there are boatloads of testimonies of the miracles He has worked in people's lives.

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

Doesn't that astonishingly complex universe being "created" by something legitimately raise the question of where did something capable of "creating" it came from???

And, if you're going to answer with something like "God just is", then why not accept the concept that "the universe just is"?

And if you say "because the universe is just too complex to simply 'be'", then we go right back to "Then isn't God just too complex to simply 'be'"? .

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm sorry you feel that way but if a fool I be, atleast I am a fool with hope. What happens if it turns out to be true? What answer will you have then? Will you still say I am a fool?

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

No, I'm sorry you feel that way. I have hope. I hope someday all of you who believe in this farce called religion will realize you've been hoodwinked and bamboozled. Religion is nothing but a tool used to subdue and control the masses. End of story. Unless you can give me proof positive that there is a 'god' then I'm going to go on my way believing in science and the golden rule. What happens if it turns out to be true? I don't live my life worrying about the 'what if' that is your master and gawd. How come gawd didn't know that the Earth revolves around the sun? How come gawd didn't realize the Earth is a sphere and not flat? Why did it take science to point these facts (facts) out? Because gawd is fake. The sooner the world wakes up to that fact the sooner there will be peace on Earth and good will toward men.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

Can you explain why you think God didn't know that the earth revolved around the sun etc?i'm not sure where you're coming from on that.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

Oh I forgot to mention, i'm not living on what ifs either. With every breath i take i am only more convinced of the existence of God. "For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day" - 2nd Timothy 1:12b

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

In 1616, Galileo Galilei was prosecuted by the Roman Inquisition (the pope) and sentenced to life in prison because he produced evidence supporting Copernicus' theory of heliocentrism (the planets revolve around the sun). The theory was thought by many to contradict the bible (the word of gawd).

Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place" etc. Catholic Church authorities declared that the ideas that the Sun stood still and that the Earth moved were "false" and "altogether contrary to Holy Scripture" (the infallible word of gawd). The same type of stuff went on with the flat Earth.

Gawd surely would have known his creation is a sphere and that it rotates around the sun....if there were such a thing as gawd. Religion is a big game used to control you and the other sheeple. Wake up already and start thinking critically about things and think for yourself.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

For starters the Roman Inquisition was anything but Christian or Biblical. Have you heard of the Anabaptist movement? It was similar to the Protestant movement and occcured at the same time. It was a movement to return to a closer following of the Bible. It went against the Roman Inquisition and consequently thousands were put to death. Just an example of how unbiblical the Inquisition was. When the Bible says "the Lord set the earth on its foundations" it doesn't mean the earth doesn't move but rather the orbit of the earth and all the basis for the workings of the earth (i.e. the seasons or rain cycle) are set. As far as the earth being round, check out Isaiah 40:22. Galileo Galilei himself stated "A hundred passages of the holy Scripture teach us that the glory and greatness of Almighty God are marvelously displayed in all his works and divinely read in the open book of the heaven."

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

So, you're seriously trying to tell me that the catholic church is not christian? That Galileo wasn't prosecuted as a heretic by the catholic church for providing evidence in support of heliocentrism? That the catholic churches 600 year inquisition/terrorism should be forgotten? It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Oh, I'm sorry, you weren't saying that at all....you were just throwing me a red herring. Have a great life, sucker.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

Au contraire. I meant every word I said. You simply misunderstand me completely! I agree the Inquisition was a rule of terrorism and it should never be forgotten. That's the very reason it couldn't be a Christian organization. No person or organization that is truly Christian or Biblical would persecute anyone else. Ever. There is no doubt in my mind that Galileo was prosecuted. That's historical fact. Perhaps I misunderstand you but it appears that every time you use the word church you are specifically referring to the Catholic church.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Is the catholic church the largest christian organization in the world? Yes. Did the catholic church terrorize the populace for 600-plus years via crusades and inquisitions in the name of gawd? Yes.

"Catholics recognize the pope as a successor to Saint Peter, whom, according to Roman Catholic teaching, Jesus named as the "shepherd" and "rock" of the Catholic Church, which according to Catholic dogma is the one true Church founded by Christ."

"During the 1st century of the Church (ca. 30–130), the Roman capital became recognized as a Christian center of exceptional importance."

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

So, what was with these Popes? Were they just evil, megalomaniacal men who gained the holy office of Pope? Aren't these statements of faith and morals, and therefore infallible? And if not the catholic church, which church is a truly chrisitian organization? You don't have to answer.

Thank you for the civil discussion. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq4Srd0P2k0

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

I know you said I don't have to reply but you had questions and I thought I could help. Truth be told (paragraph 2) Christ did not establish one church as in one particular denomination. The church he founded is all true believers worldwide regardless of nationality or denomination affiliation. To claim a certain denomination is the one true church is all wrong and completely unscriptural (yes, that includes the Catholic). By claiming that, it is also saying anyone not of that denomination is not a Christian. As far as those statements by the popes. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to back them up. To say and believe such things is the real heresy. Matthew 7:15 says "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing but, inwardly are ravening wolves." And II Corinthians 11:13 & 14 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" statements of faith and morals are only infalllible if they line up with the Bible. The Word of God and God himself are the only infallible truths. You challenged someone to prove to you God is real. I can't do that but there are two convincing books by Lee Strobel titled "the Case for Christ" and "The Case for the Real Jesus". Thank you for the honest discussion.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

The disagreement between Galileo and the Catholic church began back in the 17th century when Galileo began offering observations that supported Copernicus’s theory that the planet Earth was revolving around the sun rather then the sun revolving around the Earth.

The church maintained that the scriptures indicated that the Earth was stationary. Everyone knew the Earth was stationary, it was an accepted fact. For thousands of years it had been accepted that the heavenly bodies all revolved around the stationary Earth.

And then Copernicus came along and published his book with these heretical ideas on astronomy that stated that the Earth was revolving around the sun. Copernicus was so fearful of the consequences of his revolutionary theory that he waited until he was on his death bed before he published his book.

His ideas were so radical that the church didn’t feel too threatened - that is until Galileo built his telescope and began discovering moons revolving around Jupiter and the different phases of Venus as it revolved around the sun. This finally got the inquisitor’s attention - these observations were in direct contrast to the scriptures - something had to be done, the scriptures could not be wrong - these heretical theories had to be stopped.

They did this by summoning Galileo to a hearing and threatened to throw him into a dungeon and possibly torture him until he recanted. Galileo knew this was no idle threat since they had tortured and burnt Father Bruno at the stake along with many other heretics over the years.

Galileo’s defense was that scriptures were not wrong, only the theologian’s interpretations of the scriptures were wrong. His defense did not prevail, so in the end, rather then suffer the consequences, he recanted his theories and went into house arrest knowing that the truth would someday be known.

The inquisitors had won for the time being - the Earth would remain stationary with the sun and other planets revolving around the Earth. Although the church had long since accepted the Copernican system, it wasn’t until 1992 that Pope John Paul 11 officially apologized and set the record straight. In his statement he used Gailieo’s defense saying that the scriptures were not wrong they were just mistakenly interpreted by the theologians. The Earth was not stationary after all.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

December 21, 2008 was the 400th anniversary of Galileo's use of the telescope and the Roman Catholic church took the opportunity to announce once again that it had made a mistake in condemning Galileo. It is actually not the first time it has admitted to this mistake. Pope Benedict XIV had forgiven Galileo in 1741 by adding the Roman Catholic's church's imprimatur to his Complete Works. In 1757 the church removed from their banned books list the books which supported the idea of the earth going around the sun. Pope Pius VII gave imprimatur to books supporting Copernicus' theory in 1822. And in 1979 a commission was started to reinstate Galileo which led to Pope John Paul II second, on November 4, 1992 to announce that the denunciation of Galileo was a tragic error.

Steve Crockett 2 years, 9 months ago

Kansas is being hijacked by the ultra conservative christian minority. Sebilious was our moderator with these folks. Now we have none. To demand that some young girl ruin her future by bearing some sleazy rapists child, her moms lowlife rapist boyfriend, her father's child or a child so disabled that it will never function in society is ludicrous. What about saving the life of the mother? I personally dont believe that a "viable fetus" should be aborted. Give it a cessarian birth and give it up for adoption. But to force youre religeous views on everyone is wrong. The Bible also says women may not talk in church and that those born out of wedlock and their mother shall not enter the church. Adulterers will be stoned to death. If you pick and choose what you believe and don't believe in the Bible don't tell me what I should believe. At least the Muslims, who still stone adulterers adhere 100% to their Korran. Its the children of these religious zealots and politicians that will abort their unborn child in some back alley, with a coat hanger, to keep from being shunned for having a child out of wedlock. That is why they passed that bill back in the 60's

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

:-)

Frankly, I keep wondering why so many people continue to believe the nonsense about the health care benefits that Congress gets. Well...maybe it's just that they're resentful of the health care benefits that ALL federal employees get...because THEY ARE THE SAME EXACT THING!!!

Got that, folks? Members of Congress get the same darned health care options as every other federal employee. No more. No less. Oh! And 'Obamacare' applies to them too!

Don't believe me? Check Snopes...because this silliness actually reached the level where it got reviewed by Snopes. Jeez Louise.

George Lippencott 2 years, 9 months ago

Mostly true. There was a pesky clinic on the hill that provided services to Congresspersons (free at that time). I might also mention that Congresspersons were in my day eligible to use the major military medical facilities in the DC area (also free at that time). Bet they still have those options.

We might want to think a bit about access to specialists and the like. Some of us have a gate keeper. Others are limited by informal referrals. Some have no insurance at all. I bet the wife and I would find it hard to get to the top practitioners but I suspect that Congresspersons like other rich people get there just fine.

Money and power still talk s.

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

And about 25% of large private employers in the US also provide free onsite clinics. I'm not quite sure what's so "pesky" about doing that.

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

Just because you believe you are divinely guided does not make you right.

yourworstnightmare 2 years, 9 months ago

So much anger and rancor over something so sad but necessary.

This decision should be between a woman and her doctor, not demagogued and railed about in the popular press.

What ever happened to true conservatism? It has been replaced with screaming right wing liberalism.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

Yes the Bible commands adulterers to be stoned to death. But, may i point out that is not a Christian principle but a Jewish law? It was under the old law that it was commanded to stone adulterers. When Jesus came, He brought a new law of forgiveness. A good example of this can be found in St. John 8:1-11. However take note of His last statement "Go and sin no more"

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Where's the part in the bible where Heysoos kills someone in the foyer of their church on a Sunday? I missed that part..

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

I must of missed that too because I don't know what you are speaking of. Can you explain please?

somedude20 2 years, 9 months ago

That would be George Tiller who was murdered in church by a god loving person who claims to hate murder

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow! You know when someone goes and does something like that, all in the name of Christianity, it's no wonder people mock it. It's not Christianity at all but the complete polar opposite!

MarcoPogo 2 years, 9 months ago

Oh my. We got the Nazis mentioned before the comment threads even started.

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.” Bishop Desmond Tutu.

I think we've had our fill of religion and all the corruption and fighting it brings.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

Religion in and of itself is nothing, dead, empty, meaningless. What brings life and meaning to life, is Jesus Christ. Sadly His principles and teachings and what it means to be a Christian has been so badly warped over the years. "All too often what passes for Christianity is not true Christianity at all. It is an imposter. And the sad thing is that most people don't know the difference."-J. David Hoke

MarcoPogo 2 years, 9 months ago

"Oh Elizabeth, it's the big one! I'm comin' to join ya!" - Fred Sanford

MarcoPogo 2 years, 9 months ago

You used a quote you like, I did the same. Pretty straight forward.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Religion is a tool used by men to control other men and Jesus Christ is a fictional character.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

The Bible is just an interesting book that has many contributing authors. It should not be used for setting precedence for government, especially since the translation over the centuries has been less than accurate.

Also, I do not think Jesus Christ is a savior, he is just the world's most popular hippie.

Kathy Getto 2 years, 9 months ago

world's most popular hippie socialist :-)

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

True the Bible was written by many contributing authors but you've missed the key point: the writings of each person are the divine inspiration of God. Although you don't believe Jesus is the Savior you believe He did exist? Just curious, do you also believe His teachings are right and/or good?

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

Who says the writings of each author are the divine inspiration of god, the author? Sounds like psychosis.

I don't doubt there could have been a guy named Jesus Christ, but due to the time that has passed and inability to accurately document and translate, I find it unlikely that his actual words and teachings have survived.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 9 months ago

Were the writings in the bible the divine inspiration of gawd, or were they inspired by moldy rye bread? Inquiring minds want to know.

asixbury 2 years, 9 months ago

Muslims believe the Koran was written by Mohammed (forgive me if I spelled it wrong), who was divinely inspired, of course. So their book is also divine in origin. Who is right in this matter?

Jesus was a name given to many people in the days of the old & new testaments. The man that the English named Jesus Christ was one of thousands of prophets during that time. He stands out now because of Christianity being widespread. His teachings were different from the masses, though, since he did preach about loving one's neighbor, judging not, turning the other cheek, and feasted with the thieves. Maybe people, who are anti-choice due to religious reasons, should remember the non-judging part and especially loving one's neighbor (that includes the woman that had an abortion).

Encyclopedia Americana: "Jesus Christ--- ...Although Matthew (1:21) interprets the name originally Joshua, that is, 'Yahweh is Salvation,' and finds it especially appropriate for Jesus of Nazareth, it was a common one at that time." (Vol.16, p. 41)

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

I am aware of every point you brought up. As far as who's right and all that? Jesus wasn't just a prophet. There is so much more to that. He was the Son of God and the Messiah prophesied of by the Jews. He didn't come just to bring teachings but to redeem humankind. To bridge the gap between God and man caused by sin. I do not hate or dislike those who stand for abortion or have even had one, it is abortion itself that I dislike. But standing idly by and saying nothing is the same as condoning it.

asixbury 2 years, 9 months ago

The legalization of abortion is a battle that has already been fought in the highest of courts. It is not likely to ever be overturned, so give that idea up. How about focusing all your energy on solving the reasons behind the abortions; that is a much more honorable fight.

And for Jesus being more than a prophet; many religions believe their prophet is what you say. Who is right or wrong? Believe what you will, but do not act like those beliefs are facts. A fact is indisputable. Faith in a belief is not. The mere existence of varying religions shows that not a one can be assumed to be factual.

KSense 2 years, 9 months ago

I have no premonitions of changing a law. It is my belief Christians should not be involved in politics. My fight is not a fight of who is right or wrong but one of standing up for the Truth. Facts are truths. If you believe in something it's because you believe it to be true. My faith is not in my beliefs or in Christianity but in Jesus and Jesus alone. Please don't ask me to act as if that is anything but Truth. I can not. To do so would be to lie to myself to God and to everybody else.

asixbury 2 years, 9 months ago

Way to stand true to your morals and religious beliefs! I'm not being sarcastic, either. Your faith is inspirational, even if I don't agree with what you chose to put your faith in. Stand for what you believe is right and wrong, and I will do the same. I am glad you realize religion has no place in politics. I am glad, too, that your faith has brought you happiness, a feeling of completeness and purpose. There is nothing wrong with teaching love, right?

George Lippencott 2 years, 9 months ago

Just what is the issue? 1. Access to abortions. They remain legal. The recent sequence in Doonesbury should not happen. 2. In my earlier days many insurance covered services were for an extra charge. This issue is not new Consider 3. When you add overage to insurance the total insurance pool pays. The pool is balanced to cover the services that were provided yesterday. New ones add costs to all. Just how many new services should we be able to add that cost people that do not use them money? 4. Old people paid for the services they receive now when they entered the pool way back when. This is why suddenly adding prior conditions is so wrong. The individual that did not pay for the coverage from the beginning gets a service he/she never paid to have. This is why the mandate in the Affordable Care Act is so critical. Allowing people to enter the program after they get sick punishes those who planned ahead.

parrothead8 2 years, 9 months ago

"In Obamacare there will be rationing for seniors," = FALSE "...the lack of choice in medical care for many" = FALSE "...and perhaps even the “gracious” euthanizing of those who are too great a burden for the “healthy” in our society." = FALSE "The result is a caste system where certain elite and government officials such as presidents and congressmen will have any care they desire" = ALREADY HAPPENS...WHERE HAS YOUR OUTRAGE BEEN FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS? "...and the rest of us will be subject to decisions made by government workers who must rein in costs." = FALSE

Nice try, but you're stating a bunch of emotional, flat-out lies.

George Lippencott 2 years, 9 months ago

Explain the NHS to me. All of the above happened there. Why will it not happen here?

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

Is that our only choice? Do it the way the UK does??? I wonder if anyone knew that?

voevoda 2 years, 9 months ago

People who want to end abortion have a choice: They can step forward and volunteer to personally pay all the medical expenses of every pregnant woman who does not want to carry to term, personally step forward to repair all the familial relationships that are damaged by the unwanted pregnancy, and personally arrange for the adoption of every child born of an unwanted pregnancy, no matter how sick and fragile. If they aren't willing to do all that, then they have no business telling women what they may and may not do.
Ironically, if all medical care in this country was covered by insurance--something that Schmidt is trying to prevent--one reason for abortion would disappear.

George Lippencott 2 years, 9 months ago

Logic., If I do not want to pay fro a I must pay for b???

Kendall Simmons 2 years, 9 months ago

Yes. You do. Because you're going to anyway. Or didn't you realize that?

Katara 2 years, 9 months ago

It is interesting that we keep being told how our health care premiums are going to go up under Obamacare but the only increase that I've seen so far is not related at all to Obamacare and was put into place by the folks who are against Obamacare.

I am curious. Is anyone aware of any medical service that is exclusively for males that is so heavily regulated?

George Lippencott 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow, can I join yours? Ours has gone up significantly and in the latest round part of the increases was laid to the AFCA. Remember most of the potential costs are ahead

beatrice 2 years, 9 months ago

If Rick Santorum could take a second wife ...

Cait McKnelly 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm still curious to know why the LTE writer has their knickers in a twist over something that was supposedly wanted. You wanted abortion as a separate rider, ok it's a separate rider and will cost you 6 dollars and change per month. Don't want it? Don't sign up for it. YOU won't be paying for anything because it's going into a separate pool. So what's your b***h about it? Still not good enough for you? Or are you one of those who wants to examine every period pad and make sure there are no "products of conception"? What would you do if you found them? Arrest God for illegal abortion?

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