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Archive for Friday, March 2, 2012

Conservation?

March 2, 2012

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To the editor:

I find it hard to square Roger Boyd’s view of conservation with his support for KDOT’s plan to build the Lawrence Trafficway through the pristine Baker Wetlands.

Is this a variation on that chilling phrase from the Vietnam War, destroying the wetlands in order to conserve them?

Comments

Richard Heckler 2 years, 9 months ago

Cars cost taxpayers big bucks. Cars and developers are large tax dollar budget items that never stop coming back to taxpayers for more and more and more and more.

Can we say tax dollar moochers. Reckless socialism for the well connected.

The SLT is pork barrel spending for the local real estate industry.

More bang for the tax buck would be KDOT spending this roadway money developing round trip commuter train service between Topeka,Lawrence,JOCO and KCMO.

The tracks are ready so let's get on with it.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 9 months ago

Reinvest and Fix It First

Eight in 10 respondents prefer redeveloping older urban and suburban areas rather than build new housing and commercial development on the edge of existing suburbs.

More than half of those surveyed believe that businesses and homes should be built closer together to shorten commutes, limit traffic congestion and allow residents to walk to stores and shops instead of using their cars.

Six in 10 also agree that new-home construction should be limited in outlying areas and encouraged in inner urban areas to shorten commutes and prevent more traffic congestion.

With road building costs often exceeding revenues, many states are turning to tolls as a key funding source. Americans are divided on tolls, although 55 percent approve of charging tolls on more roads if it improves roads and decreases congestion.

On the other hand, six in 10 are opposed to charging tolls on freeways during rush hour to reduce congestion, and respondents are evenly split on charging tolls during rush hour, even if the money is used to provide transportation alternatives to the freeway.

When it comes to spending taxpayer dollars, respondents believe Congress should spend more money to maintain and repair roads, highways, freeways, and bridges and to expand and improve public transit than build new roads.

This year the survey also asked about climate change, and more than 70 percent of respondents are concerned about how growth and development affects global warming. Americans expressed strong support for bold measures to combat climate change.

Nearly nine in 10 believe that new communities should be built so people can walk more and drive less; cars, homes and buildings should be required to be more energy efficient; and public transportation should be improved and made more available.

Americans strongly disapprove of increasing gasoline taxes as a way to discourage driving and reduce energy use, with 84 percent rejecting the idea.

http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/narsgareport2007.html

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 9 months ago

And yet we don't run this nation based on random poll data.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Merrill, None of your comments is even remotely related to the LTE "Conservation"? Way to stay on topic!!

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

The trafficway will be caught up in the courts for years more, and who knows what the outcome will be. In the meantime, the habitat that Mr. Boyd was able to create has been wholly embraced by the wildlife. I, too was skeptical about the politics involved, but guess what? The geese, hawks, coons, coyotes, deer, and innumberable other crawling, swimming and flying creatures are grateful.

You can be against the trafficway and be for the wetlands expansion. You can be for the trafficway and be for the wetlands expansion, too. All I know is what I see, and I suggest that you spend an afternoon or morning out there and then see if you don't agree. It's amazing.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

But what about Haskell and the wetlands that were improperly taken from them? Do they deserve any consideration?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Consideration for what...dissemination of false information? They certainly have not done anything to enhance the Baker Wetlands, have they?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

And ten lanes of pavement will "enhance" these wetlands?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

It's pointless to try to answer questions based on false premises.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

This is code for "I don't have a legitimate answer so I'm going to be cute and stonewall"

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

For you, the only legitimate course is whatever benefits Boyd and Baker, and you're willing to denigrate Haskell and everything they hold sacred to get it. I don't find that even remotely cute. To the contrary, it's disgustingly narcissistic.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Whatever makes you feel good about yourself.... So back to the question - do you agree with the author that they are pristine now?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

Certainly much more pristine than they'd be after ten lanes of pavement are plowed through them.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Do you believe the Medicine Wheel is more or less pristine than the Baker Wetlands?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

I would classify this response as avoidance. Hmmmm? Why would that be?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

Yes, I avoid answering stupid, irrelevant questions.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

And you are the only one who gets to decide if they are stupid or not. And you called me narcissistic earlier? Answer the question - Is the Medicine Wheel more or less pristine than the Baker Wetlands?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

Yes, I am the only person who gets to decide which questions I answer here. Deal with it.

(it's still a stupid and irrelevant question.)

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Bozo said: (it's still a stupid and irrelevant question.)

Some would say there are no stupid or irrelevant questions.

What I translate your response to mean is you have no idea what in the hell I'm getting at. For me the answer is that neither are pristine - they have both been manipulated by humans. And that, Bozo, is the heart of the entire LTE. If neither you, nor Daldorph, or DougCounty understand what pristine means - why do you even have any opinion?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

"Some would say there are no stupid or irrelevant questions."

And that would be a stupid statement.

I don't care to argue over whether they are pristine. It doesn't matter to me. If you want to argue about it, take it up with Daldorph.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

Like I said, the politics will play itself out, and who knows what will happen on that end. Boyd's restoration effort is taking place adjacent to the land that was owned by Haskell/BIA, so would not be affected by that outcome. The long term goal for the restoration is to move Louisiana to the west, joining the restored wetlands to the land that Haskell had, nearly doubling its size.

Like I said, the wildlife have voted with their presence--the restoration project is working and should be supported regardless of where you stand on the political machinations around the SLT, land ownership, growth issues, etc.

Greg Cooper 2 years, 9 months ago

Yes, as long as Haskell's wishses are based on nothing but emotion. Until there is definitive evidence that the "old" wetlands are preferable to the "new" this whole debate is moot.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

The insistence on paving these wetlands is wholly emotional-- hatred for "hippies, Injunz and environmentalists."

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

It's paving less than 10% - how is that destroying the wetlands or denying sacreness to the other 90%?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

For you, there is no sacredness. Your only loyalty is to Boyd and Baker, and you'll accept whatever they sell out for.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

"So respect for Haskell's wishes is irrelevant."

I said nothing about honoring or dishonoring Haskell's wishes. Haskell has no objections for expanding the wetlands restoration to the west as far as I'm aware of. They object to running the trafficway through existing wetlands, which I can easily distinguish as a separate issue, can't you? Is it so difficult to support Haskell's wishes AND support the expansion of the wetlands to the west? This was not the intention of the agreement that officials are trying to force onto Haskell, but just because officials see it as an either-or situation doesn't mean I have to accept their definition of what the restoration project means.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

"They object to running the trafficway through existing wetlands, which I can easily distinguish as a separate issue, can't you?"

They are directly connected. Without Baker surrendering for destruction the land that once belonged to Haskell (and given Baker's duplicity, still should), the remediation to the west would not happen. It's a quid pro quo, and among humans, only Baker (and Boyd) benefit from it, not Haskell.

But I understand that you're only looking at this from a wildlife perspective. I happen to think that the human perspective is equally important.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

I think you see this restoration as being about Boyd and Baker reaping benefits while I see this restoration being about wildlife being the primary beneficiary. These two perspectives are not mutually exclusive.

I think it is worth pointing out that by the Boyd restoration moving ahead before the final resolution occurs on the trafficway, there is a real possibility that the trafficway piece of the project could hit a wall and not get completed in a way officials expect it to be, while at the same time, the new restoration work would become a permanent addition to the pre-existing Baker Wetlands tract, thereby strengthening it by substantially expanding it.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

With the quid coming with no guarantee of the quo, you're right that the expansion of the wetlands may not come at the expense of the destruction caused by ten lanes of pavement.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

If 32nd st is not completed you can trust that KDOT will not leave the restoration site in place. Dream on that you will somehow magically hit the lawsuit and keep the restoration site.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

That'd be quite the temper tantrum. Would you approve? Would Dr. Boyd?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm not sure if you said what you meant - I have no idea what you meant?

But as far as approving - its not my place to.

I would have to think that Dr. Boyd understood all along that if the lawsuit went to the opposition or if the State Legislature pulled the funding that the restoration would be over.

I do know that Baker doesn't have funding now to manage their own area adequately, they certainly wouldn't take on KDOT's 150 acres without significant financial compensation.

Maybe KDOT could find a duck club in the area to buy it?

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

The point is that the state/feds have paid a pretty penny to scoop out swales, plant native grasses and forbs, build walkways, shelter and paths. If things get tied up in courts interminably, there would be no incentive for a local farmer to spend the considerable expense at returning it to a crop field, and I suspect a local coalition could be formed to continue to maintain it, if it were not sold/given to Baker to join the contested lands to the east.

Mike Ford 2 years, 9 months ago

I drive every day to Lawrence and back. In the original wetlands areas I see all the animals and birds. I go past these fake ones and I mostly see nothing except for Canadian Geese who are prone to swimming in city poop ponds. The new one is nothing but pr. It's funny how Boyd fanned the man made wetlands statement to his favor early on when people like me stated that area was always wetlands soil wise. Now he and his lackies admit the soil is wetlands soil and they backtrack kind of like he did not supporting the road and then supporting this manipulative monstrosity.

nativeson 2 years, 9 months ago

DougCounty - Well said! The division regarding the Wetlands has gone on long enough. The mitigation is wonderful, and the need for a bypass is well overdue. The unintended consequences of a lack of this road has been signficant for any resident of Lawrence living south of 23rd in East Lawrence.

Greg Cooper 2 years, 9 months ago

Probably sounds that way to you who has not had an original thought in ages. Perhaps, if you'd open your mind and shut your mouth you'd hear that not all "liberals" are rabid earth-destroyers, and that they have at least as much empathy for things that matter as you.

But, then, that would entail critical thinking skills. Oh, well.....................

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

In the LTE, Mr. Daldorph refers to: "KDOT's plan to build the Lawrence Trafficway through the pristine Baker Wetlands". What Mr. Daldorph doesn't realize is that believing the current wetlands are "PRISTINE" is actually a testimony to what a good job the Boyd family has done. What Tuschie doesn't understand is the difference between a property containing wetland soil and being an actual wetlands. The cro pfields for 4 miles east of Haskell have wetland soil - are they wetlands - no. They have been drained, just like the Old Haskell Farm when it was donated to Baker University for its stewardship. Apparently, as I have pointed out before, Tuschie can't identify anything other than Canada (not Canadian) Geese.

Years ago Dr. Boyd gave us some statistics in class about the 573 acres Baker received in 1968. When acquired, 15 acres were occupied by gravel roads, 370 acres were being actively cropped, 133 acres were actively grazed (they had previously been plowed and replanted to non-native grass like brome and fescue), and only 55 acres had never been plowed (less than 10% of the total property). But even those acres had been drained so that the grass could be hayed. In addition there were over 20,000 linear ft of gas lines crossing the property and in 1975, 11,500 linear ft of water line crossed it as well. Both the gas and water lines still exist. Does this sound like a pristine habitat to anyone?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

Do ten lanes of pavement sound like pristine habitat?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

And so do you agree with Mr. Daldorph that they are pristine now?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

It's good that these wetlands have been restored. It was a respectful way to treat the lands that were transferred to them from Haskell, and also respected the requirement that they be used for educational purposes as required when Indian lands are transferred to other entities.

Paving them over is a slap in the face. And clearly, you enjoy the slapping.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

It's paving less than 10% - how is that destroying the wetlands or denying sacreness to the other 90%?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

Ask Haskell-- oh, that's right, you really don't give a crap what Haskell thinks.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

I have asked you and Haskell multiple times. I never get a straight answer.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

Translation-- you ignore/disregard the answer because you don't give a crap what Haskell thinks.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

I don't believe that I have ever gotten an answer...you, for one, keep trying to subvert the topic just as you just did.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

Idaho,

Yes, the wetlands were once farmland with drainage tiles that had to be removed before they could be restored to wetlands. Since the tiles were installed in the 20s or 30s, and farmed for 30 or 40 years, you are saying that the "pristine" section of the wetlands was not pristine at all, even moreso because of the gas lines that have also trenched through there.

But what about before the drainage tiles? The wetlands were formed after the glacial melt from the Kansan ice age created the wide valley that holds the river and wetlands. Those wetlands have probably been around at least half a million years. So you tell me: what is the most accurate way to describe the Wakarusa wetlands--the 40 years of farming part of it, or the half million years of wetlands?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm not sure what your point is? I have read that the Wakarusa River formed after the last glacial advance and that was "only" 10,000 years ago so the wetlands probably appeared then. But what does that have to do with today? If the drainage or vegetation has been altered then it is no longer pristine - end of story. The history of human activity there is evidence enough to verify that none of it is pristine now. The Baker Wetlands were cultivated beginning in the 1850's not when BIA drained it in 1920. A portion of those acres were farmed from 1854 to 1982 (128 years) when Baker seeded the remaining crop fields to native grass. You are correct that Dr. Boyd has been able to do a good job restoring much of the original area back to wetlands as well as the more recent restoration. That should be the focus, not whether these are man-made, pristine, or whatever. The correct plants are there and so are the animals. So to describe the Wakarusa Wetlands? Prior to 1850's there were over 16,000 acres of pristine wetlands in Douglas County, today there are none that are pristine and only 45 remaining in the Baker Wetlands that have some of the original vegetation.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

Nope--the last glacial advance was indeed around 10,000 years ago, but the Wakarusa floodplain was formed in a far earlier glacial phase, at least 5-600,000 years ago. The Baker website that you apparently got that from is incorrect--ask any geologist when the Kansan ice age was and they'll confirm what I'm saying. While the wetlands have indeed been there for the past 10,000 years, there's no evidence that I'm aware of that they were anything but wetlands since the Kansan Ice age.

Regarding the conversion of into farmland, it wasn't really farmed until 1922 when the drain tiles were completed, and for anyone who remembers what the Wakarusa river valley was like before Clinton Reservoir was installed in the 70s, they can confirm that the Wakarusa spilled over its banks every few years and wiped out the crops every 5 years or less. The reversion to wetlands didn't really get going until 1991, so if you take 1922 until 1991 you have 69 years. Take 10 or so more years when the crops were wiped out by flooding before Clinton Dam was put in and you have closer to 59 years.

What does it have to do with today? Well the soils are indeed wetland or hydric soils when they've been wetlands for half a million years, vs. less than 60 years of being farmed. These are wetlands, plain and simple.

It's also my understanding that the 45 acres of original vegetation are indeed virgin prairie, not planted over by Baker in native grass.

So my point is that the wetlands have been wetlands for half a million years and farmland for 59, and most native ecosystems have had natural disruptions throughout their history, so not sure why you are using the "they are not pristine" argument anyway. Unlike the wetlands, your argument doesn't really hold much water.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

Why am I not surprised that nowhere in this post (of idahowinds) is made mention of Haskell or what these lands might mean to them?

JackMcKee 2 years, 9 months ago

Pave it all, then pave I again, then pave it one more time, then spray Round Up all over the paved pavement.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm gonna show up with a camera the day tushie & bozo lay down in front of the bulldozers prepping the SLT construction site.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 9 months ago

Blame on this mess on the Chamber of Commerce aka developers political action committee and the real estate industry.

Why? For failing and refusing to follow through on the original 1971 recommendation of a BYPASS that was to be built south of the Wakarusa River. The recommendation was through the State Highway Commission.

In 1985 the Chamber of Commerce Transportation Committee Members(builders and real estate people),developers and other interested parties met in secret to discuss a trafficway. This is where the nonsense was born by way of special interest.

Many real estate companies bought up land along this route. For what reason? I assume to sell it to KDOT for more money than it's worth. Can we say local insider trading?

Why in the world did the developers not build along K-10 so the high tax dollar bedrooms would have practical access to K-10? What were they thinking? What were these sellers of homes telling buyers? Go sue the sellers.

Anyway commuters are still getting to work at least those that BUSHCO did not put out work. A banking person mentioned there are a ton of homes in Lawrence,Kansas that need buyers.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 9 months ago

Wetlands are a natural flood control that currently are still saving taxpayers millions upon millions upon millions of tax dollars. Require very little maintenance whereas the bypass will require millions upon millions upon millions of tax dollars after construction = duped again.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Guess what merrill. The mitigation for the SLT will almost double the flood control abilities of the Baker Wetlands. Why don't you comment on what a bad idea that is?

Richard Heckler 2 years, 9 months ago

The more wetlands green space the better. The more wetlands natural flood control the better.

Not so with roads no way jose'... Roads eat up tax dollars green space gets by on its'own.

Too much traffic eh. Let's take cars off the road and out of rush hour traffic.

More bang for the tax buck would be KDOT spending this roadway money developing round trip commuter train service between Topeka,Lawrence,JOCO and KCMO.

nativeson 2 years, 9 months ago

I applaud the idea of mass transit. One problem >>> people simply do not us the service in any signficant numbers. The SLT has less to do with Lawrence and more to do with the NE transportation corridor that is an economic driver for this part of the state.

K10, US 59 (almost completely widened) and I70 need that one small connection to improve our highway system within the area.

Secondly, the route south of the Wakarusa river was evaluated as late as 2010. It is included in the evaluation of options in Transportation 2030. 1) It was more expensive. 2) It did not off load near as much traffic from 23rd street as the 32nd alignment. 3) It goes through riparian woods that had as much if not more adverse environmental impact as 32nd street and 4) It was not the route chosen by the Core of Engineers or the Federal Highway Commission.

Armstrong 2 years, 9 months ago

Guess Roger's recognition shows the "save the wetlands" crowd how out of thouch they really are

Mike Ford 2 years, 9 months ago

snap....I'm going to say I told you so if the system gaming of KDOT, Boyd, and Development succeeds and the building goes on until an area where students were dumped by eurocentric racist White people in the late 19th and early 20th century who viewed us as savages and remains are uncovered and your project is totally derailed but not before you offended the good nature of concerned indigenous and community people and the state wastes money as the 32nd route is abandoned and south of the river is the only alternative to no build. Think it can't happen.... look up Washington State Dept of Transportation versus Lower Elwha Klallam Tribe. $43 million invested before project is abandoned due to the desecretion of over 400 graves and an ancient tribal site a couple of years ago. Some people don't learn and some scientists want to play god at the expense of the animals and the indigenous peoples.

Armstrong 2 years, 9 months ago

The grave site scenario was debunked several months ago if you recall. Remember it was farm land years ago. Had that land actually been burial ground any bones would have been tilled up years ago. Sorry

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

You've got the lead in today's Run-On-Sentence sweepstakes. Go, you! (... from ... a ... source... )

Mike Ford 2 years, 9 months ago

No it wasn't. Besides....you obviously didn't read my letter to the editor about the 200 or more hidden graves being discovered at an Anglican Residential School for Mohawk children in Brantford, Ontario, Canada a couple of months ago. Another site detailed the locations of burial sites at a number of Indian boarding schools across Canada. White people back then considered us savages not worthy of a healthy meal, medicine, or adequate blankets. This was the case in Canada and the US. When will you ever own your history?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

"The indians and hippy libs who have no meaning in their lives really need to find a new hobby anyhow."

Thanks for demonstrating that the juvenile, spiteful spirit that's behind most of the pro-pavement sentiment.

blindrabbit 2 years, 9 months ago

I don't know when Mr. Daldorph entered the scene, but I'll try to put some rationality to his "pristine wetlands" comments. Also, I hope to avoid Mr. Merrill's mindless wanderings through this subject. As a kid, in the 1950's I lived adjacent to what was to become the Baker Wetlands, at that time the entire property was farmed is some manner, the only wetland was along the little county road (now removed) that crossed about 1/2 mile south of 31st Street. As a naturalist and biology major, I used to cross this little road to gain access to the wet ditches that parralled the road; was a great place to collect freshwater aquatic specimens including large fairy shrimp. But to call this a wetland during the 1930-1960 period is a joke; during part of this time Haskell Institute operated a cattle operation, hardly compatable with a "wetland". The Baker Wetlands were created by Dr. Ivan Boyd (Rogers) father and the biology department at Baker. Originally, it included only the property between Haskell Avenue and Louisiana Streets and South of 31st. Street to the Wauky, the recent large addition (West of Louisiana Street) was an offset to satisfy the part of the wetlands that would be lost if the trafficway were to be built. I visit the new addition frequently, and I think it will actually end be better wetland than the original; again due in large part to Roger Boyd and Baker.

Lawrence has suffered for many years because of the traffic situation on the South side; I don't know why they just upgrade 31st. Street to satisfy the needs.

As to a posters comment about seeing only Canada geese; maybe he/she needs to take an ornithology course on bird identification! This week there plenty of mallards, shovelers, teal, gadwalls and a variety of other paddlers. It seems to me that every Tom, Dick and Harry has an opinion about the wetlands, but few know the history or know the facts about how the Wetlands came to be.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

So what? They belonged to Haskell for decades, during which time they became culturally very important to the Native Americans for which these lands were set aside in order to satisfy treaty obligations. And they're still important to them. Not that you care, apparently.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

These lands were not set aside in order to satisfy treaty obligations. The original campus in Sec. 7 might have been but not the later encroachment onto Sec. 18. That's you're problem Bozo - You can't stick with your own scenario. It morphs to fit your "argument of the day". And apparently being culturally significant to a couple of individuals over several generations, according to your interpretation, is supposed to arise to tribal cultural significance. According to federal government guidelines it doesn't. If you don't like that you need to take it up with BIA not KDOT, SHPO, or FWHA.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

You follow a grand American tradition-- as long as you can find/create some legal rationale for it, Indians can be screwed out of anything a good, well-connected white boy might want.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Welcome to American - the legal screwing isn't limited to Indians. You just chose to look at the cases that are of interest to you.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

So you're OK that Haskell gets screwed as long as your alma mater is one of the screwers-- I get it.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

Democracy can seem cruel sometimes, especially if you are a minority. But in the case of HINU, they chose to draw the line in the sand - all-or-none. They chose to fight Goliath. They have not won. If they had won their case in court it would have been a different story. It is a little late to cry for a "do-over". HINU could have chosen a number of other options to come out winners - they didn't. So it is not about Baker chosing to screw HINU. HINU chose their own path. Baker did not chose it for them - Baker chose to improve the environment - something that you apparently don't care about.

Your mantra is "Save The Wetlands" and yet that is a lie - you don't care to save the wetlands only the memory of Indians past. Something that can still be done with the other 90% of the Old Haskell Farm that isn't impacted by the SLT. It is your choice whether you get screwed, not KDOT's and not Baker's.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

It wasn't a choice between "all or none." It was a choice between getting paid for the destruction of the Haskell Wetlands, or not. They chose not to be whores like Boyd and Baker.

"Your mantra is "Save The Wetlands""

No, it isn't. My interest is in seeing that lands that should rightfully be returned to Haskell not be destroyed by ten lanes of pavement.

Mike Ford 2 years, 9 months ago

I drive down what is Louisiana Street south past 31st to 458. I look to my right and see Canada Geese in the fake wetlands. I grew up just north of the Oauchita National Wildlife Refuge and Catehoula Lake at Jonesville, LA. I had the Little River in my backyard across a levee. I next lived in Moss Bluff, LA, just north of Lake Charles. I had a gigantic swamp area of cleared cypress along the Calcasieu River and English Bayou which we crossed daily to go to Lake Charles. We went down to Hackberry and Cameron near the Laccassine refuge. We crossed the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge en route to Baton Rouge and Pascagoula many times in my childhood. And I went to Avery Island and saw the McElheny Tobasco Plant as a child. I grew up in wetlands area in LA and know birds so don't question me. I've also seen the wetlands along the Marais Des Cygne just south of Trading Post on 69 in the middle of summer dried up with hay bales in the fields only to see the same area full of water in the winter. The wetlands/ farm land arguement is just another straw man arguement used by the uninformed.

Armstrong 2 years, 9 months ago

Ummm, what does this have to do with the farm land currently under water. Do you have a point to your "story" ?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

We don't have to question your credibility Tuschie. When you look at the restoration area and see ONLY Canada Geese when there are actually 4 species of geese and 6 species of ducks there....we can assess your motives very quickly and easily....its about what makes your spin work for your dilusional world.

Mike Ford 2 years, 9 months ago

standing up to ignorant people like you mustrun 80 is not a hobby but a reality. you trolling and saying uneducated things and trolling is your hobby and a sad one at that.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

DougCOunty said "So my point is that the wetlands have been wetlands for half a million years and farmland for 59, and most native ecosystems have had natural disruptions throughout their history, so not sure why you are using the "they are not pristine" argument anyway. Unlike the wetlands, your argument doesn't really hold much water."

Based on your logic then, everything could be declared pristine by arguing that human disturbance is natural and short lived. Would you declare the restored wetlands west of Louisiana St. pristine? Would you declare the farm ground to the east of Haskell pristine? Apparently so. Perhaps in some twisted geologic sense you could say YES?

Pristine in the ecological sense means there has not been human disturbance - in the case of habitats, that's the only interpretation that applies. The wetlands in Sec. 18 have been disturbed by humans since they were homesteaded in 1854, not 1922 as you claim, and have been variously drained (leveed, tiled, W-ditched, and bedded), plowed and cropped....they are, by any biological definition disturbed and therefore - not pristine.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

By your logic, nothing is pristine, as humans have disturbed the very climate and virtually every square inch of land on the planet in one way or another.

Given the brokeness of the natural world by your strict definition, the question of whether it is pristine or not fades away as not all that useful and is replaced by a new question: what can be done that will allow the ecosystems of the landscapes where we live to function as effectively as possible and heal in the long run?

The wetlands on both sides of Louisiana have been disturbed by agriculture, but they still provide invaluable services to the waters in the Wakarusa Valley (read: everything on the south slope of Mt Oread to the ridge that separates the Marais des Cygne River watershed in southern Douglas County). The wetlands filter the waters, provide some of the best wildlife habitat in the region, and a host of other ecological services.

Bottom line: both sides of the wetlands are more valuable as wetlands than as croplands and trafficway. Converting from croplands back to wetlands is very doable primarily because of the geological heritage of the hydric floodplain soils that are still there, and the wetlands will get better and better, more complex and valuable as a wetlands the longer you leave it alone as a wetlands. The half million year heritage as wetlands trumps the 60-70 years as croplands for most of the area east of Louisiana and 100 years or so for the area west of Louisiana Street.

Pristine is the wrong conversation--get it?

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

I totally get it. Why do you suppose I have been defending Dr. Boyd's efforts. My original objection was for Daldorph to refer to the current Baker Wetlands as pristine. It is not and as long as the gas lines and water lines and utility lines remain there it will never be pristine again. It can be and is a valuable, functional wetlands - I never argued it didn't. You were the one that wanted to keep tagging it pristine. Geologically, once the wetland soils are formed, they aren't going away...but you apparently know that.

And yes, I'm saying that if it has been damaged by human activity, it is no longer pristine and that includes a large portion of this earth. There are over 7 billion of us - why would you expect it to still be pristine.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

You're doing nothing but looking for a rationale for totally disrespecting Haskell's right to have any say over land that once belonged to them, and remains culturally and historically very important to them.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

Idaho, Actually, I've never defended the term "pristine" in any of my posts. My "take home message" is that both of the areas east and west of Louisiana street have been wetlands far longer than they have been farmed, and as a result the hydric soils support any good restoration efforts on either tract.

The reason I brought up that point was that in the "pro-trafficway" circle, the wetlands have been discounted as being just a few years old, with the land being farmed before that. What this argument then neglects to say is that the farming was preceded by half a million years of wetlands, so it is the farming that is the anomaly, not the wetlands.

So it seems that we are understand the same thing to me, no?

And bozo, what makes you think that Haskell opposes the restoration efforts west of Louisiana? Of course they oppose the package that it was a part of, i.e. the restoration AND the 35th street alignment of the trafficway, but the restoration effort by itself is not controversial in the least as far as I know. In fact, it strengthens the wetlands, something that I imagine Haskell would be be very supportive of, for the same reasons they want to protect the Baker Wetlands portion of the Wakarusa Wetlands.

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

My apologies, DougCounty. We apparently are pretty much in agreement. Not sure how it got to be otherwise? I don't think your case was very clearly stated at first.

In regards to Bozo and the other opponents, perhaps I have been misinterpreting them as well but BOZO used to harp all the time (before the restoration started) that it was a waste of time and money and would never work (Tuschie still claims that). Now all BOZO says is he doesn't care about the restoration. But it appears that most of the opponents don't care about restored wetlands - they don't care about wetlands at all - they only seem to be concerned that Baker is taking away their right to tell the current land owner what they think should be done to land that they never really owned in the first place. It is about Indian Rights and atrocities that they believe happened in Sec 18 100 years ago. And nothing will appease them short of no road at all or SOR.

Mike Ford 2 years, 9 months ago

idaho...I drive by twice a day and what do I see....a flock or two of poop lake geese. I drive by the area to my left and I see all the ducks and geese of all kinds. Oh I get the manipulation of words Idaho.....since the Haskell wetlands were put back to wetlands after the WHITE BIA officials advocated destruction then other White people can destroy them for the sake of progress???? progress????

IdahoWinds 2 years, 9 months ago

The fact that you can't see but one species of goose indicates a severe mental condition of blockage and denial...it is clear you see only what you want. Tell me one species you see in the Baker Wetlands - other than the same "city lake poop geese".

"Oh I get the manipulation of words Idaho." Again blockage of hearing/reading and denial. If it doesn't fit your little world of reality then if must be bogus or fake or a trick or whatever to justify that your answer is the only correct answer.

The bottom line is that both you and BOZo have a similar anthropocentric world view. For you two this issue is all about how to accomodate people whether it is American Indians or White people doesn't really matter. The main mantra being that how the people are treated is all important. The outcome of the wetland habitat and its inhabitants is irrelevant.

I feel sorry for you for having such a limited and narrow world view.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 9 months ago

God, that was one of your most idiotic and hypocritical posts ever.

Clearly, your "anthropocentric world view" is even narrower than the one you accuse tuschkahouma and myself of having-- in your case, your area of concern is only for the white people who populate Baker University, especially if their name is Boyd.

Ken Lassman 2 years, 9 months ago

Look, I'm not defending Idaho or anyone, but anyone who says that there's no diversity on the west side of Louisiana in the restored section needs to go out there and watch in the morning/evening. The following was a census count taken on the newer, restored section on the west side of Louisiana St. on March 1: Baker Wetlands Restoration Area Survey 03/01/2012 Snow Goose 62 Cackling Goose 8 Canada Goose 82 Mallard 124 Blue-winged Teal 2 Northern Shoveler 20 Northern Pintail 67 Green-winged Teal 162 Northern Harrier 1 Red-tailed Hawk 2 American Kestrel 2 Killdeer 12 Wilson Snipe 4 Ring-billed Gull 49 Rock Pigeon 12 Great Horned Owl 1 Red-bellied Woodpecker 1 Northern Flicker 2 Blue Jay 4 American Crow 3 Horned Lark 4 Black-capped Chickadee 2 Tufted Titmouse 5 Eastern Bluebird 4 American Robin 26 European Starling 41 American Tree Sparrow 41 Savannah Sparrow 7 Le Conte Sparrow 1 Song Sparrow 6 Swamp Sparrow 2 Harris Sparrow 9 White-crowned Sparrow 24 Dark-eyed Junco 3 Northern Cardinal 10 Red-winged Blackbird 20 Eastern Meadowlark 16 Western Meadowlark 6 House Finch 1 American Goldfinch 1 House Sparrow 4 Note: this is only the birds observed. Does not include mammals, fish, insects, reptiles and amphibians, and the rest. These are the real winners of the project, just as a host of other plants and animals are the winners for the part of the wetlands to the east.

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