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Archive for Friday, February 24, 2012

Flawed theory

February 24, 2012

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To the editor:

Thank you for printing “Policy group looks at Laffer tax claims” in Saturday’s Journal-World. The study by the independent Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy clearly refutes the claims of Arthur Laffer that tax cuts lead to economic growth. George H.W. Bush was correct when he called Laffer’s theory “voodoo economics.” Even so, this hasn’t stopped the Brownback administration from paying Arthur Laffer $75,000 to try to sell this phony concept to Kansans. The governor forgot that Kansans can see through this flawed theory.

Comments

grammaddy 2 years, 10 months ago

That;s what I like about Republicans.The truth doesn't faze them and they never let a pesky little thing like facts get in their way.

cato_the_elder 2 years, 10 months ago

The "Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy" is a left-wing cabal. Of course, that's no deterrent to doctrinaire leftists in citing its "findings" in order to justify their pre-conceived hatred of those who wish to improve the economy of Kansas.

cato_the_elder 2 years, 10 months ago

Happy to respond. To those who know about this organization (which apparently doesn't include you), it's viewed as left-leaning in everything it does. It houses and is joined at the hip with a sister organization, "Citizens for Tax Justice," whose name tells you all you need to know. Its mission statement is as follows:

"Citizens for Tax Justice, founded in 1979, is a 501 (c) (4) public interest research and advocacy organization focusing on federal, state and local tax policies and their impact upon our nation. CTJ's mission is to give ordinary people a greater voice in the development of tax laws. Against the armies of special interest lobbyists for corporations and the wealthy, CTJ fights for:

Fair taxes for middle and low-income families Requiring the wealthy to pay their fair share Closing corporate tax loopholes Adequately funding important government services Reducing the federal debt Taxation that minimizes distortion of economic markets."

In other words, the same BS to which you and Gandalf subscribe.

If you need further proof, look it up yourself. I need to return to assisting my fellow Americans in creating wealth for themselves and others in the private sector.

cato_the_elder 2 years, 10 months ago

Gandalf, if you don't think that the mission statement I posted represents the mantra of the Left, then you're the one whose views are skewed.

cato_the_elder 2 years, 10 months ago

I agree that the mission statement I forwarded is pure bunk and junk. The sad part is that you and Gandalf agree with it.

Greg Cooper 2 years, 10 months ago

Cato, I googled the same Wikipedia article you did and your plagiaristic comment is right on, as far as it goes. The question I have is, "What about the mission of either ITEP's or CTJ's makes it an unelievable source?" I don't meanto imply that you should, or even will, agree with them, but that you will find little to argue with in their factual presentations. Of course, you will never believe in anything fair, as fair to you is anything that denies anyone but you and your buddies anything.

And, my boy, what exactly is it you do to create wealth that helps anyone but yourself? I'm all for your creating wealth, but I have a great doubt that you are engaged in helping anyone but you earn wealth.

cato_the_elder 2 years, 10 months ago

It's called, my boy, providing private sector work that employs others and helps them feed their families. That, in turn, allows them to pay taxes of all kinds to support those who live off government at one level or another.

Corey Williams 2 years, 10 months ago

Like those corporations that get tax breaks? Or how Obama wants to raise corporate taxes by dropping the top tax rates by 7 points, but removing a lot of the same tax breaks?

Corey Williams 2 years, 10 months ago

No, property tax breaks go to companies. The social security tax breaks went to real people. What happened last december? Oh yeah, republicans fought it. Money staying with the people who will actually spend it? Inconceivable.

Maybe if the corporations would actually pay any taxes things would be different. "1/1,000,000,000th"? ROFLMAO

JackMcKee 2 years, 10 months ago

sure thing Cato. Come up with an idea that will actually accomplish those goals and I'll be right there supporting it. Brownback's plan isn't it.

Richard Heckler 2 years, 10 months ago

If tax cuts produced significant economic growth all of us would have 3 jobs no matter what and citizen bank accounts would be overflowing ......... after 32 years of Reaganomics/Wreckanomics tax breaks.

32 years of Reaganomics/Wreckanomics tax breaks have produced millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of USA jobs in China and elsewhere. But not in the USA where hard working citizens made corporate america what it is.

There might be something wrong with this picture.

seriouscat 2 years, 10 months ago

Economics: The only discipline in which two people can win a Noble for saying the exact opposite things.

seriouscat 2 years, 10 months ago

Please post proof that "the nation's revenue's grew to the highest levels ever after the bush tax cuts".

Sorry, a four-year-old memory of something Katie Couric said isn't doing it for me.

Also, please note that the jobless level grew to the highest level in decades and that the wealth inequality in the U.S reached pre-depression levels during the bush years as well.

Joblessness and massive wealth inequality are pretty good indicators of pain and misery for a nation. Just ask her: http://www.1adventure.com/archives/images/dorothea-lange-migrant-mother-ver1a.jpg

seriouscat 2 years, 10 months ago

Oh you mean the fake economy that was based upon fake wealth and that bursted in 2008, leaving millions homeless and jobless? Yeah, that was awesome!

No proof of revenues still?

Here I gots some numbers for ya : ) You're welcome. Hope you don't find them too boring....yawn

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/3485/gdpdata.jpg

"GDP shrank rapidly during 2008 and early 2009 during the recession under Bush. The recession ended in June of 2009 under Obama. Since then, GDP has expanded in every quarter and is now at an all time historical high, currently growing at a modest but real rate of about +2.8% annually."

seriouscat 2 years, 10 months ago

I was pointing out that you had no evidence of your claims other than a vague memory of some mainstream media figure saying something years ago, which is just annoying and all too common

Then I pointed (with proof to back it up) that while under the same bush tax cuts....the economy has also tanked, and millions of people have lost jobs and homes....so to point to the bush tax cuts as the engine of "economic boom" ala 2006 is just feeble minded.

seriouscat 2 years, 10 months ago

You have yet to post anything besides an irrelevant chart to back up any of your opinions. which is all that they are....and me pointing that out makes me a knee jerk lib?

Don't make me laugh.

Also, the graph I posted proves the fact that under the bush tax cuts, the economy tanked, and now you want to come back with more unsubstantiated claims that (how predictable) it's the "liberal politicians" fault? Fine, then. Post PROOF.

seriouscat 2 years, 10 months ago

I am not saying the tax cuts caused the economy to tank.. I showed proof that under the tax cuts the economy did tank....I hate it when people put words in my mouth. No one...not even Laffer himself can say for sure whether the cuts increased revenue:

"When asked whether the Bush tax cuts had generated more revenue, Laffer stated that he did not know. However, he did say that the tax cuts were "what was right," because after the September 11 attacks and threats of recession, Bush "needed to stimulate the economy and spend for defense."

Moreover, under those same tax cuts,(once again), joblessness and economic inequality are at record highs. How the heck is that a "booming economy"? Voodoo indeed.

seriouscat 2 years, 10 months ago

My point is that you can't point to whatever convenient theory fits your view and sit back with a smug grin and expect me to buy it.

How about we go back even a little further...shall we? I remember the "Laffer libertarians" throwing a huge hissy fit when Clinton passed what they were calling "the biggest tax hike in history", and then the economy took off like crazy...remember that? Everyone had jobs and income growth blah blah blah...how could that be? According to you and many of the others who have nothing better to do than parrot the same old BS over and over again, tax hikes are "job killers".

I guess my ultimate point here is that the economy is so complex and dynamic that even the guys who make up the theories and get lots of money for it don't REALLY know the answers. Neither do you, neither do I. What we DO know is that millions of Americans are suffering...and all anyone like you can say is "cut taxes"! As if that will always fix everything. It won't.

JackMcKee 2 years, 10 months ago

The flaws in Btownbacks tax proposal are many and obvious. It belongs in the dumpster along with his other horrendously bad ideas.

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

And a 0% rate would provide no revenue at all.

It is certainly possible, in theory, for the Laffer curve to be correct - it has a common sense appeal. But, determining where we are on the curve and whether we should raise taxes or lower them is difficult.

Many rates right now are pretty low, historically, so I imagine they can be raised without hitting the point at which that's counterproductive.

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

These are some valid reasons why the laffer curve does not necessarily equate to incresed tax revenue:

1) Lower taxes are more often re-invested in financial markets rather than property, plant, equipment, employees, and inventories. 2) When tax benefits are re-invested in capital markets rather than jobs, it is subject to the lower capital gains tax rate. 3) Lower tax rates produce a future benefit that is dependent on profitability, and does little to increase demand and consumer confidence.

Greg Cooper 2 years, 10 months ago

Excellent! The same facts are repeated elsewhere, but are denied as "liberal claptrap". In the event that Republicans ever become less beholden to the monied, there will be a chance that our tax policy can be repaired.

Peacemaker452 2 years, 10 months ago

The truly sad thing about this entire discussion is that it centers on maximizing the government’s revenue. Instead, why don’t we concentrate on reducing government expenditures to the limited, legitimate functions allowed in the Constitution? Then we can lower everyone’s taxes.

tomatogrower 2 years, 10 months ago

Every conservative loves Reagan's policies. Let's set the tax rates to what they were when he left office. Deal?

Katara 2 years, 10 months ago

"Blaming Republicans is like a guy at a bar saying the reason he can't hook up with any of the women is because they are all gay. " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Perhaps. Or perhaps he wandered into a bar that caters to lesbians.

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

Tripled it, in fact.

Where were all of the conservatives then, complaining about the national debt?

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