Archive for Friday, August 10, 2012

Out of touch

August 10, 2012

Advertisement

To the editor:

Mitt Romney and his team continue to tell us that the American people don’t really care about the release of his tax returns. Here’s a news flash. Yes, we do. Many of us care a great deal. We who are committed to this country  pay our taxes because we know that money is needed to pay for essential services which contribute to the maintenance of a civilized society. We are also convinced that it is our patriotic duty to do so. How sad that a man aspiring to the presidency of this great nation would feel no obligation to share in such a moral commitment. He’s old enough to know that even though things are legal, they are not necessarily moral.

Some may remember Leona Helmsley. She was a multi-millionaire who spent some time in prison for federal income tax evasion. If we don’t remember the deed, we probably will remember her famous statement, “We don’t pay taxes … only the little people pay taxes.” Whenever I hear Mitt Romney speak, I think back to Leona Helmsley. At least she had the chutzpah to tell us what she thought of us.

When Mitt Romney sees the “little people,” what does he see? That’s the problem. He doesn’t see us. It’s awfully hard to know what the common folk are going through while one is looking from the top of an economic pinnacle. Too bad Mitt is not like his father, George Romney, who not only treated all people and this country with respect but began the tradition of releasing his income tax returns for all to see. He had nothing to hide because he was a moral man. How sad that his son did not follow in his footsteps.

Comments

ThePilgrim 2 years, 10 months ago

Maybe you care about Romney's tax returns. I don't. "But its unfair". Yeah, and its unfair that I pay more than my neighbor. And its unfair that my friend's grown daughter gets more back in taxes than she paid in.

"We are also convinced that it is our patriotic duty to do so." Never in the history of mankind has paying taxes been seen as a positive, "patriotic" thing to do. Sorry, but your thought control through the Ministry of Love is not working.

Wikpedia - The Ministry of Love (1984). The Ministry of Love enforces loyalty and love of Big Brother through fear, a repressive apparatus, and brainwashing.

Alyosha 2 years, 10 months ago

Your claim that "Never in the history of mankind has paying taxes been seen as a positive, 'patriotic' thing to do" is misguided. Many people understand that a dog-eat-dog Ayn-Rand-style world is not civilization but rather a law-of-the-jungle world, and they reject that.

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, for instance, said "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."

It's simply that some people are overly selfish and believe they are islands unto themselves, while not having any gratitude for the benefits of humane civilization.

SnakeFist 2 years, 10 months ago

I completely agree with Alyosha. Most liberals understand that paying taxes is necessary to maintain society, while most conservatives think everything - e.g., roads and bridges, water treatment plants, schools, and police and fire departments - somehow should appear and work without any money.

Paying the taxes that support American society IS patriotic.

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

"Never in the history of mankind has paying taxes been seen as a positive".

This is truly amazing. Mankind has been around a long time. Can I now make history and be the 1st person to ever state that paying taxes is positive....and patriotic?

Leslie Swearingen 2 years, 10 months ago

And, I shall be forth, totally agree with Alyosha.

greatldy 2 years, 10 months ago

The problem for Romney is that people are beginning to realize that the wholesale liquidation of American's productivity by bankers and wall street execs has created this situation.This legal destruction of our country (offshoreing, destruction of labor rights, wildcat financial speculators) was made possible by our tax code and bank regulations. These practices might be legal but hardly moral or good for our country. Romney would be as BELIEVABLE of being good for our economy as a plantation owner running on an anti-slavery ticket in the 1850's.

ThePilgrim 2 years, 10 months ago

"When Mitt Romney sees the “little people,” what does he see? That’s the problem. He doesn’t see us." Neither does Obama. Both parties consistently see us and treat us as stupid children that must be lead into Utopia or controlled, else we may eat what is not good for us, do what is not good for us, or not think correctly (Thought Crime).

Leslie Swearingen 2 years, 10 months ago

No one is the Obama family is telling anyone what to eat. Mrs. Obama is simply pointing out that the quality and quantity of food you eat and exercise you get does impact your health, physical and mental and the quality of your life. Eating badly just to spite Mrs. Obama would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Such advice is meant to help you live a better life. Please don't reject it because it is coming from a Democrat.

Lawrence Morgan 2 years, 10 months ago

The above comments are insulting to the author and should be completely disregarded. Yes, I do care very much about Romney's tax returns, and I do care about paying taxes, despite what you say to the contrary.

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 10 months ago

We need some transparency in our government. What's Romney have to hide, besides the silver spoon in his mouth? Offshore accounts... I'm definitely interested. Magical dancing horses, $77k deductions, and the like are definitely something that will hurt Romney come election time. Best release now to allow enough time for damage control. Otherwise, you're done!

Leslie Swearingen 2 years, 10 months ago

Anyone remember when Ann Richards said about Bush Sr. "Poor George, he can't help it , he was born with a silver foot in his mouth."

SnakeFist 2 years, 10 months ago

Isn't it funny how the release of Obama's college transcripts is so terribly important to the regressives, but Romney's tax returns are somehow nobody's business?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

You ignore the fact (I know it's a fact cause I read it in an email) that Obama never even went to college or law school-- he spent those years in Moscow working for the KGB!! That's why he won't release his transcripts!!!!!!!!!

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Birthers and Taxers - the same book ends just at different extremes.

Alyosha 2 years, 10 months ago

Yup, false equivalencies.

Romney is flouting the tradition of both his own father and that of candidates for the presidency.

One is a fantasy issue born of racism (no one ever asks other (white) candidates to show their birth certificates to prove they're American) and the other is an actual issue Romney brought on himself by flouting traditional disclosure of his finances.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Show me a white candidate that listed in a book that they were born in Kenya or one that has gone under different names throughout their life and then maybe I'll believe it is because of his skin color and not his words that raised the concern.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

"Show me a white candidate that listed in a book that they were born in Kenya"

Man, you really got it bad, don't you? (mindless paranoia, that is.)

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

You're too funny bozo. Attack attack and attack is all you have. It doesn't matter to me that you continually attack, it just shows you for who you are.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

I didn't attack you. I merely pointed the obvious pathology that allows you to believe utter nonsense.

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

But President Obama was born in Honolulu, HI.

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

I think it is unfair that Capital Gains are taxed at 20%. By and large this is how the wealthy make there money passively. If anything, it should be subject to the same rates as earned income.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

And notice how Romney paid even less than that - and that was with the one return he wasn't too embarrassed to release.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Megan where were you in 2008? Where you demanding transparency from Obama? Were you demanding the release of his birth certificate or college transcripts? I suspect not.

In 2008 we had the birthers and today we have you, a taxer.

Since it is very likely that there is nothing illegal in his tax returns the only thing that can possibly be there is a low tax rate or little to no taxes paid. So what? Even if he paid a 98% tax rate you still wouldn't vote for him so why should he release his tax returns?

You wrote, "We who are committed to this country pay our taxes because we know that money is needed to pay for essential services which contribute to the maintenance of a civilized society. We are also convinced that it is our patriotic duty to do so."

So by your definition, the large number of people in this country who pay no federal taxes are unpatriotic?

You Megan, are cut from the same cloth as the birthers. You Megan are a taxer who does not really care about the issue, but simply wants to poke at the man you despise. Is it because of his Mormon faith? You're a taxer.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

The reason it's important is because Romney thinks that the rate of taxation he's subject to isn't quite "fair" enough, so he'd like to give even greater tax cuts to folks like himself (who, just like he did, would eliminate more jobs than they create with all that extra cash.)

If he wants to be president, he should let all voters, even those with a middle or working class income, know exactly what kind of world he believes in for himself and his peers (but not for them.)

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

I hear that accusation a lot, but I've not seen where Romney has said he doesn't think his rate of taxation isn't fair and wants to reduce it. Can you supply a link or source? I'd like to see it first hand instead of taking your word for it.

I suppose that you felt that Obama should have released his birth certificate before the election too? If not then what is the difference between the two issues?

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Obama released a short form version when he could have released the long form. The short form did not contain all the information the long form did. Romney has released two years of tax records so that should be enough right?

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

No, he couldn't have released the long form during the campaign. He had to go through a special request as president in order to release the form, because the state of Hawaii no longer issues official copies of that document.

There is no information contained in the long form that would draw into any question the authenticity of the short form or the location of Obama's birth. Seriously, you should quit while you're behind, because you're only making yourself look more ridiculous the more you try to stretch this into an equivalency.

Romney has release 1 mostly intact tax form for 2010 and 1 partially complete form for 2011, and no birth certificates of any length.

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

A certificate of live birth (short form) is the same thing you would get if you requested one from your county of birth (in akmost all states).

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

Can you show me where I can find a copy of Romney's birth certificate?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

Oh, come on. The Republican mantra these days is that taxes (levied against the wealthy, anyway) are evil and destroying the economy and turning the country into a godless communist hell-hole.

Alyosha 2 years, 10 months ago

Have you seen Romney's birth certificate, Fred? Have you seen his college transcripts?

If not, why are you not agitating for the release of those, since Obama's apparently dominate your imagination?

Obama has released: A) his birth certificate, and B) his tax returns. Let's compromise and say Romney should release everything Obama has released, and vice versa.

Would that be acceptable to you? And if not, why not?

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

I am not calling for the release of anything from Obama and never had. I am pointing out that the taxers and the birthers are one in the same only on different ends of the bookcase.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

You're going to awfully strange lengths to continue to make this false equivalency argument. Demanding Obama release apples when Romney hasn't released apples (and doesn't intend to release apples) is exactly the same as demanding that Romney release the same oranges that both Obama and Romney's own father released while running for president?

No. That's not called a different end of the bookcase. That's called listening to Rush Limbaugh too much.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Chootspa. If you had an open mind you'd understand that the issue isn't what the sides want released but their fanatical obsession on it. Harry Reid is making up stories just like birthers. The takers are fixated on this issue not because it really is important but because they hate Romney and will never vote for him just like the birthers they condemned.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

Most people who want to see the tax returns (that would be 63% of Americans btw) aren't demanding it as part of some outlandish sounding theory. Releasing tax returns isn't unusual for presidential candidates (in fact not releasing them is unusual.) Releasing grades or birth certificates is unusual.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

Look at the Ryan plan Romney has praised. Ryan would remove capital gains tax, and that would put Romney's rate at about zero percent.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

The original LTE made it appear that Megan wrote this letter. I now realize it is Anna and can't edit my post so substitute Anna for Megan.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

It's not actually for sure that there's "nothing illegal" in his tax returns. He may have taken part of an amnesty program for people that were illegally hiding money in Swiss bank accounts. His 2009 return would give us the answer to that.

Obama has already released his tax returns, btw, so this is apples to apples, unlike bringing up birth certificates and grade transcripts (I haven't seen Romney's grades or birth certificate, either - where's the outrage?)

Alyosha 2 years, 10 months ago

Your claims are groundless, Fred.

We just want Romney to follow the precedence his own father started of releasing tax returns so that Americans can make an informed decision about someone who wants to be elected President.

Your ad hominem attacks against a fellow commenter suggest you have no credible argument to make about why Romney's flouting tradition and precedence about releasing tax returns is acceptable, especially given that there's evidence he willingly and knowingly tried to hide his income so as to avoid paying his legal share of taxes.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Alyosha, where is the ad hominen attack to which you refer? If I attacked someone personally then that was wrong of me and not something I try to do. So please paste it so I can apologize.

And who cares what you want Alyosha? Really, just because his father did something doesn't mean he has to do it. You just want him to give you something you can pick apart to attack him. It doesn't matter what is in the tax returns or what isn't in them you're not going to vote for him. You are just looking for something to attach him.

BTW, i do not plan to vote for Romney in the fall so I am only defending him because I don't like hypocrisy or unfair attacks. I would defend and have defended Obama in the same manner when justified.

voevoda 2 years, 10 months ago

Your premise is wrong, fred_mertz. Obama did release his birth certificate long before the 2008 election. It was exactly the same birth certificate that all residents of Hawaii use all the time to prove who they are and where they were born. And furthermore, his birth was listed in Honolulu newspapers among all the others that occurred in Honolulu hospitals on the same date. So the birthers are lying; there is absolutely no truth to what they say. It's a different situation with Romney's tax returns. They actually do exist, but he refuses to release them. Unlike Obama's college transcripts, which tell us about what he was doing decades ago, Romney's tax returns tell us what he was doing when he was preparing to run for the presidency. If Romney's own tax returns reveal that he benefits personally from a certain tax structure, it's a reasonable inference that he will work to preserve that tax structure as president.
Just as you resent people who don't pay federal income tax even though they can afford to do so, so do I. What I would like to know is this: Is Mitt Romney one of them? If he is--and the revelation of his tax returns would tell us so--then you, fred_mertz, would be obligated to vote against him. So you, too, ought to have a great interest in his tax returns.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Regardless of what Romney has in his tax return I am not obligated to vote for him or against him. No rule exists.

However, with that said, as i've pointed out before, I am not voting for him in the fall.

The taxer issue is the same as the birther issue. It is being done by people who will not vote for the candidate regardless of what they release and is only being done to discredit and attack the person.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

"Regardless of what Romney has in his tax return I am not obligated to vote for him or against him. No rule exists."

Quite right-- there is no "rule" against hypocrisy.

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 10 months ago

A politician running as an ally of the "common man" but who is so wealthy ~ and works the system to such a degree that he's afraid to reveal it to his constituents is not a politician who's adequately courting my vote. I don't resent wealth, but I'm not trusting this behavior.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 10 months ago

I'd rather see the Mope's college transcripts.

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 10 months ago

As they are clearly more relevant today than Romney's wealth, asset locations and tax records. Good use of priorities there.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Pastor

Acutally Obama's college transcripts are more relevant than Romney's wealth and tax records. While there may be things in Romney's tax records that might make people not vote for him, there is nothing that will disqualify him as president. However, the concern is that Obama does not meet the requuirements to be president based on his birthplace and they suspect the college transcripts will show he registered as a foreign student.

So yes, they are as relevant or even more so as Romney's tax returns. You can't support the release of one without supporting the release of the other unless you're a hypocrit.

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 10 months ago

Actually I'll be the decider of what's relevant to my vote. And if my priorities don't coincide with what Koch, Inc. tells me they are, so be it. You see, since the recent "cleansing," I'm enjoying the full freedoms a "man without a party" experiences: I've shed the secret magical Republican undergarments and now enjoy the fresh air of a man without the constraints of a loyalty oath. And please, you just look silly rehashing the whole "birther" nonsense. Stick to the real issues and Romney may have a chance. Otherwise, your efforts simply reinforce Obama's victory this fall.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Pastor, I'm not the one calling for the release of anything. I am simply pointing out your hypocrisy. You demand transparency of Romney while denouncing those that call for the same from Obama.

As I pointed out, the birhters and taxers are the same extreminst. I don't care about his birth certificate or college transcripts, but I do care about what he has done since becoming president.

And what is relevant to each voter, as you pointed out, is an individual choice, but we should be consistent in how we react to requests for information that is available and relevant to the individual.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

Yes we should be. Which is why both parties should release their tax forms. Oh wait, Obama already did. Now let's consistently hound Romney to do the same and let's consistently think that grade transcripts aren't commonly released with campaigns and aren't relevant.

There. Consistency.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

If it is important then make it a requirement to run for president otherwise it is optional

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

"Acutally Obama's college transcripts are more relevant than Romney's wealth and tax records."

Of course they are. Obama is black and a Democrat, and Romney is a rich, white Republican.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

Where's Romney's college transcript? I want to check to see if he registered as a foreign student.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

And I want to see proof that he didn't secretly joined the French Foreign Legion while proselytizing in France. That would invalidate his citizenship, and I will assume he is no longer a citizen until I see proof that he didn't join up (and I've seen pictures of him wearing a really gay beret, which is really all the proof I need.)

voevoda 2 years, 10 months ago

fred_mertz, All the transcript would show is whether Obama was a foreign resident--what his "home address" was--not his citizenship status. And we have his Hawaiian birth certificate--certified authentic--and the enumeration of his birth among others occurring in Honolulu in Honolulu newspapers from the time. You advocacy of the "birther" position just shows that you don't think logically, and it undermines everything else you say. How can anybody take your comments seriously when you subscribe to patent nonsense?

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

voevoda, you are blinded by your ideology. One can make the argument for the opposing side without supporting that point of view. Read my posts and just don't assume. I am not a birther nor am I a taxer. I however, understand their points of view and can articulate them to draw the comparison, but that does not mean I agree with them.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

We'd like to believe you, but since you're asserting a false equivalency, the only possible assumption is that you really are a birther.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

I wonder if I should be flattered or a bit worried about your constant attention.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

It's public forum. If you don't want public attention drawn to your thoughts and ideas, don't post them here.

But to address your expressed concern, you should be not worried, and neither should you feel flattered.

Pastor_Bedtime 2 years, 10 months ago

In other news, Obama has also failed to release any gradeschool macaroni art creations for the refrigerator.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 10 months ago

Our affirmative-action Pres will be moving back to his mob-financed Chicago mansion next January.

Alyosha 2 years, 10 months ago

Actually, he's the duly elected President of the United States. That must rankle, but the majority of American citizens voted him President. He was not appointed, nor was he placed in the presidency via Affirmative Action.

And he'll be the duly re-elected President come November. What will you do when the American people flatly reject beliefs like those in the comment above and re-elect President Obama?

As a patriotic American, you'll abide by the rule of law, yes?

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

Thank goodness you posted that. I base all my opinions on what Spike Lee says.

bearded_gnome 2 years, 10 months ago

two years tax filings is the norm for candidates.

I wouldn't release more either.

note that the desperate crazed left has even taken to attacking Mitt's wife Anne, her horse, and her M.S., and her stay-at-home-mother status.

releasing more tax filings just throws out lots of little minutia for the stilted biased leftist press to distort.
... no wonder.

Katara 2 years, 10 months ago

I don't believe you can post this with a straight face.

You complain about the attacks on Romney's wife but I don't recall you taking right wingers to task for comparing Michelle Obama to a gorilla or Chewbacca.

While I am glad that you are still among the living, I have to wonder what happened to you while you were gone that made you so hateful?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

"I don't believe you can post this with a straight face."

BG is very committed to his extreme and unwavering partisanship.

Katara 2 years, 10 months ago

He didn't used to be mean and hateful.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

It's the "norm" only for McCain, who was the only major candidate in recent history to release only two years.

John Kerry in 2004, Al Gore in 2000, George W. Bush in 2000, Bob Dole in 1996, Bill Clinton in 1992 and Michael Dukakis in 1988 all released many years of tax returns when they ran for president against the incumbent, either at the time or because they had routinely released tax returns while in public office. (There was no incumbent in 2000.) Dole, in fact, released tax returns for a whopping 30 years.

voevoda 2 years, 10 months ago

The most probable reason that Romney hasn't released his tax returns? Not that he did something illegal--probably not. But rather that for at least one year, he was among those Americans who paid no federal income tax at all.
How would voters feel about that? So many of the anti-Obama crowd continually harp upon the unfairness of some citizens paying "no taxes" (they mean, Federal income tax). They don't think this is right even for citizens whose income is below the poverty level. But what if the citizen who isn't paying any Federal income tax is one of the richest people in the country? Surely, that should anger them even more! So the people who are incensed about fellow citizens not paying any income tax ought to be the ones most interested in seeing Romney's tax returns.

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

But Voevoda, Romney is earning from his investments and Capital Gains. This is way different. He is infusing capital into the economy. The people who work 40 hours a week are not taxed enough, and they are mostly leeches who syphon from their employers and shareholders.

voevoda 2 years, 10 months ago

camper, I'm not sure that I understand you. You seem to be saying that ordinary wage-earners who work a 40-hour week 1) deserve to pay a higher tax rate than multi-millionaires; and 2) are all dishonest and robbing their employers. If that is what you are saying, you have just insulted a majority of your fellow citizens.
I don't see why people who earn their living through investments--especially overseas investments--deserve more respect and a more favorable tax status than those who earn their living through the sweat of their brows. In fact, for centuries, Christian churches taught that only the latter were engaged in legitimate wage-earning, and making money through investment was sinful. It was blessed for the poor to receive charity to meet their needs, and incumbent upon the well-to-do to give it--indeed, it was a condition of their admission to heaven. Maybe you disagree with centuries of Christian wisdom, camper. But I am shocked by your stated opinion of our fellow-citizens.

verity 2 years, 10 months ago

Pssst! I think camper was being sarcastic.

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

I was being sarcastic Voevoda. I am in agreement with you. Capital Gains should be taxed the same as earned income.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Those that are calling for Romney to release more tax returns will never vote for him. They are firmly committed to voting for Obama. Like the birthers, the taxers are looking for ammo to attack the candidate.

People will disagree and say the taxers are not the same as the birthers, but in my opinion, they are. They both are fervently opposed to the candidate and are looking for information to discredit and attack him. They pretend the call for information is based on a need to know, but it isn't, it is a desire to get more dirt to attack some more.

Both are near-sighted and focused on one issue and finally, the candidate could not do anything or release anything to change their minds and have them vote for him.

I'm done, at least for now. Peace to all of you and enjoy your day.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

Actually 63% of Americans are calling for Romney to release his tax returns in recent polling. Are you conceding that he's already lost the election?

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

I have no clue who will win. Too early to tell much can happen between now an November.

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

If you're saying that people calling on him to release his tax returns will never vote for him, than you're saying 63% of Americans will never vote for him, including several high profile Republicans. He might as well just concede now.

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

Except that Obama's released his birth certificate, and "birthers" still try to make an issue of it.

Releasing the tax returns won't get anybody who's otherwise inclined to vote for Romney, of course. But, I would think that many people who are undecided might like to know, and especially those who have problems with people who don't pay federal income taxes should want the information, as pointed out above.

But, there's a clear and obvious disconnect - when the guy not paying federal income tax is poor, it's a crime. But, when he's rich, it seems to be fine.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

jafs, Obama did eventually cave and release his birth certificate and yes it did not satisfy the birthers. Romney has released tax information and it does not satsify the taxers.

jafs, you're a reasonable person, can you honestly say there is no similarity between a birther and Harry Reid who makes unsubstantiated allegations like they were fact about Romney's taxes?

I believe that the definition of crazy is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result. So, I am not voting for either Romney or Obama but will vote the candidate that is closer to my political beliefs, Gary Johnson.

I just get frustrated with the stupid attacks by both sides and feel the need to present an opposing view (plus I enjoy the debate).

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

There may be some similarity, but there are also differences.

Don't you find it odd that those who most loudly complain about folks not paying federal income tax aren't more curious about whether Romney has done so?

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

I think the difference is for that those that decry the nearly 50 percent that don't federal income tax is that they believe that 50 percent is taking without contributing anything whereas, even if it were true that Romney didn't pay federal income tax he has paid other taxes and isn't seeking welfare.

Right or wrong, is not the point to my response, it is merely trying to explain how they think. I think fair is fair based on the issue and not the party affliation, candidate or socio-economic status. So, yes, I can see where it is a concern.

Katara 2 years, 10 months ago

The largest group in the nearly 50% who did not pay Federal Income tax consists of senior citizens. Those folks have already paid into the system.

People who believe that the nearly 50% haven't paid into the system are people who are not interested in facts and are not interested in learning more about the man who wishes to be our President.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Well Romney is retired and a senior citizen so irate you okay with him not paying federal taxes like the rest of the seniors?

Katara 2 years, 10 months ago

He's running for President so he is not retired (He's actively seeking employment) and the reasons for him not paying Federal Income tax are not because he is below the income level where Federal Tax is not assessed.

I'm not sure what "so irate" is supposed to mean. I'm not irate about him not showing his returns. I am not understanding his reasoning as many previous candidates for both Presidential and Gubernatorial races have done so with no objection.

His excuse as to why he won't release them (because his political enemies will just use them against him) is pretty lame. First, I think most people expect things like that to be fodder for attack anymore in our political races. Secondly, why is he worried about that? I'm not convinced that he did anything illegal so what is the real objection?

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

Yes, many believe that, but they're wrong.

As Katara points out, the largest component of that group are seniors, who have almost certainly contributed for many years. And they're not on welfare, they're living on modest SS benefits.

Also, many who don't pay federal income tax pay other taxes, but that fact is routinely ignored.

But, somehow, when the guy is rich, it's ok for him not to pay federal income taxes, and they don't even want to know whether or not he has?

voevoda 2 years, 10 months ago

Obama released his birth certificate long ago--not "eventually," fred_mertz. Because the silly "birthers" kept making a fuss, finally the Hawaiian authorities released the long form of Obama's birth certificate--the one kept for internal governmental use and not generally issued to individuals or the public. But the birth certificate Obama had been showing was legitimate and it should have been sufficient, since it was identical to the ones that all Hawaiian use. The difference from the "taxers," as you call them, is profound. Romney hasn't released any of his tax returns before 2010. The documents surely exist. By releasing them, Romney could easily establish that Harry Reid's allegations were false--if that is indeed the case. If Romney did so, and then his critics claimed that the tax returns were forged or incomplete, then the situation would be parallel to the "birther" nonsense. The attempt to draw a parallel between "taxers" and "birthers" is just a ruse to delegitimize the request for Romney's tax records. It's legitimate for voters to know, and Romney ought to have the courage to release the tax records and defend his financial dealings.

Kathy Getto 2 years, 10 months ago

When he is rich and Caucasian it seems fine.........

drake 2 years, 10 months ago

Mitt Romney paid over $6 million in federal taxes alone and millions more were given to charity over the last two years. Exactly how much more do you people think would be his "fair share" ?

chootspa 2 years, 10 months ago

Just think of the extra car elevators he could have purchased with that extra money instead of having to pay for things like public schools and police officers. Oh, the horrible things we do to the rich. Asking them to pay a little back into the system that allowed them to accumulate all that wealth in the first place. Tsk, tsk. Let's raise sales and property tax and make granny pay for the roads instead.

voevoda 2 years, 10 months ago

Romney paid less than 15% of his income in Federal taxes. That's not his fair share, compared to those of us who earn a lot less and pay a lot more.

Armstrong 2 years, 10 months ago

Sticking with a proven failure, excellent idea. Let me guess because a D is behind his name for political affiliation, brilliant. Or you could vote for a someone who has the proven he can create wealth. Oh wait I'm talking to the Larryville crowd, enjoy watching your D get booted out of office in Nov.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

Armstrong - they scream and yell a lot on here, but the nation is changing. Kansas is certainly changing. Not a single democrat won a statewide election in 2010 and the state's legislature is going to be far more conservative come November.

I am amazed how otherwise intelligent and rational people will stand behind and defend Obama's past four years. The most prevelant excuse is he inherited a mess. My response is, well, if re-elected the mess he will inherit in a second term is far worse than the one he inherited in 2008. If he couldn't fix the 2008 mess how will he fix the 2012 mess?

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

I am amazed at how many people, otherwise seemingly intelligent and reasonable don't understand how our government works.

Not only did Obama inherit a huge mess, but Congress has been mostly determined to see him fail.

Since the President has limited powers, by design, he can accomplish little without Congress.

In order to make progress, not only would Obama have to be re-elected, but Congress would have to become more of a partner, and less of an opponent.

However, a Republican Congress + Romney is almost certainly guaranteed to make things worse, in my view.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

jafs since it is not likely that we'll have democrat congress, it is a forgone conclusion that Obama will not make any progress.

You're right it is difficult to get things done with the Congress he has, but here are some things he could have done and some he promised that he'd do.

Close GITMO Give people a chance to view legislation for 5 days End the Patriot Act Not use drones to kill Americans not convicted of a crime Not hire lobbbyist Not further divide the country based on race and wealth Get us out of Afghanistan now Do not commit the US troops to more military action except when it is absolutely necessary to defend the country.

Yes, some things are beyond his control and others aren't.

Bush was blamed for a great deal and you could make the argument that it was not Bush that did these things but Congress since he has such limited powers. Fair is fair - right?

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

I believe that closing Gitmo presented numerous problems that they haven't been able to solve, like what to do with the folks in there that nobody wants.

Viewing legislation and ending the Patriot Act would involve Congress, wouldn't it? The president can't just repeal legislation or enact it with the stroke of a pen, right?

I agree about lobbyists - I'd like for him to have done more about that.

He said he'd end the Iraq involvement, and pursue the Afghanistan conflict, which is exactly what he's done.

Only if/when Bush faced a Congress resolutely determined to see him fail.

But, yes, most people seem to think the president has a lot more power than he actually has.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

He could have vetoed the Patriot act instead of signing and supporting it.

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

Yes, I had that thought after I posted.

I wish he had, or at least insisted that Congress re-write it to take out some of the more egregious parts.

SnakeFist 2 years, 10 months ago

"Or you could vote for a someone who has the proven he can create wealth."

First, Romney didn't "create" wealth, he obtained wealth at the expense of others; he was part of a "business" that destroyed other businesses that created things.

Second, Romney's method of obtaining wealth only works for a few because it requires that lots of other people lose their jobs. So its hardly a useful method of turning the U.S. economy around.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

"Or you could vote for a someone who has the proven he can create wealth."

I've seen no indication that Romney created wealth for anyone but himself and his wealthy investors, and they did it by destroying the livelihoods of those whose jobs he eliminated and/or outsourced to other countries.

Mixolydian 2 years, 10 months ago

I suppose I, or you, could google it but I know offhand that Romney provided venture capital to Staples to take it from nothing to 1000's of stores and 10's of thousands of jobs.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

That's one way to look at it. On the other hand, with the arrival of Staples, there was no net increase of jobs in the sale of office supplies, hundreds of small, locally owned businesses went out of business as the office supply business was "Walmartized," and the average salary for those who do the selling likely dropped significantly.

That was good for Romney and Bain, but at whose expense did that come?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-johnson/so-did-mitt-romney-really_b_1681248.html

Armstrong 2 years, 10 months ago

But....But....But. He does'nt have a D behind his name ! Barry, really 4 years of failure has taught you nothing about the guy, really ?

Kirk Larson 2 years, 10 months ago

I find it interesting that John McCain saw Rmoney's tax returns back in 2008 when vetting him for VP. And something made him believe that Sarah Failin', of all people, was a better choice. Last week when every one was making a stink about Mitch McConnell calling Harry Reid a liar, when McCain was interviewed about the matter, he did not deny what Reid had said only saying that perhaps Reid had "gone too far" in suggesting that Rmoney had not paid taxes for ten years. So what is it? Maybe eight, or six?

camper 2 years, 10 months ago

Mitt Romney will say anything. This guy lies more than Newt Gingrich. This is a pretty telling collection:

http://youtu.be/W_pgfWK3sxw

SnakeFist 2 years, 10 months ago

Your deduction wasn't 'careful' enough.

  1. Almost everyone pays taxes of some sort, so almost everyone contributes and does their patriotic duty in that regard.
  2. Part of your taxes support the military - isn't that patriotic? I thought regressives were supportive of the military (even though so many of them never served).
  3. The fact that flying a flag in your front yard is patriotic doesn't mean that not flying a flag is unpatriotic. Similarly, being too poor to pay federal taxes does not make a person unpatriotic.
  4. Like many regressives, you are confusing liking paying taxes with understanding the necessity of paying taxes. Nobody likes to pay taxes, but most of us understand that duty often trumps preference.
  5. I suppose you think cheating on taxes is more patriotic than paying them? If so, maybe Romney has a pleasant surprise in store for you.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

How does someone who receives government assistance and has no other income pay any taxes? When they purchase things it is done with tax dollars given to them so they are not paying even sales tax.

Katara 2 years, 10 months ago

You are making a very incorrect assumption that being below the level where Federal Income Tax = $0 income. Social Security is income and it has already been taxed once (when the person was paying in) and, dependent on total income overall, is taxed again.

Additionally, there is still sales tax (food stamps do not cover non-food items), property tax and State Income tax.

Perhaps you are aware that the State of Kansas considers any tax refund that you receive (state or federal) as income and you are taxed again on that.

Brock Masters 2 years, 10 months ago

katara. I don't not consider social security as government assistance and I limited my response to someone who only receives government assistance and NO other income. Thus I do not think I made an incorrect assumption.

Katara 2 years, 10 months ago

Many do consider Social Security to be government assistance (they lump them under entitlements in their misinformed rants). SSDI and SSI are also considered government assistance. You can still qualify for those without ever having paid into the system. Most people who are in that category (not having paid into the system) are people who are too disabled to work and have never been able to.

Others are elderly widows whose husbands were their sole source of income.

Most folks have been employed as some point in time and have paid into the system be it Federal Income tax, State Income tax, property tax or sales tax.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

But you, like so many conservatives, seem to want stigma and shame to be attached to the receipt of any sort of public assistance. Why is that?

Leslie Swearingen 2 years, 10 months ago

Don't forget that when you pay an utility bill, a phone bill, a cable bill, there are taxes on those.

SnakeFist 2 years, 10 months ago

Very few people live their entire lives without earning a dime of taxable income, buying things that incur sales tax, owning any form of taxable property, etc.

Regressive elites created this myth of the "perfect freeloader" to incite the middle class against the poor so that the rich can better take advantage of everyone.

jafs 2 years, 10 months ago

"federal income taxes"

And, the largest groups there is composed of senior citizens living on modest SS benefits, who have almost certainly contributed their entire working lives.

verity 2 years, 10 months ago

And these are the people that the income tax cuts for the wealthy will hurt because already high property taxes will be raised to pay for things on the local level---you know like filling potholes, fixing collapsing bridges, removing snow from the streets so people can get to work and maintenance on local schools. Things which many senior citizens won't even be using.

SnakeFist 2 years, 10 months ago

Federal taxes 'are not', repeat, 'are not' the only taxes people pay.

werekoala 2 years, 10 months ago

Sorry, pal, you're dead wrong on that. Every person who draws a paycheck posts taxes to the federal government. FICA, Medicare, and income.

Problem is, if your household doesn't make much money, you will often end up having paid so much on your payroll taxes, you are entitled to a refund. Damn those McDonalds workers, they have it so good!

And then you have the senior citizens, on small fixed incomes. Rotten leaches, they are.

But keep plucking that chicken, you crazy diamond, you...

SnakeFist 2 years, 10 months ago

With regard to Romney creating jobs, according to the WSJ:

“[T]he Romney campaign's 100,000-jobs count is flawed, because it gives Bain all the credit, even though other investors also played a role in the four key companies, and includes jobs added long after Mr. Romney left Bain in 1999…Give Mr. Romney and Bain credit for a share of jobs created proportional to Bain's ownership stake in its investments at the time. Because Bain held minority stakes in all four firms, and sold out years ago, that method would produce a far lower total—less than 1,500…Mr. Romney…gave the 100,000-jobs number at a January Republican primary debate but later agreed that many jobs were added after he left Bain, saying: ‘And we're only a small part of that, by the way.…We were investors to help get them going.’” http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303292204577519293959381060.html

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 10 months ago

And his "job creation" at Staples was accomplished through the loss of thousands of jobs at small locally owned businesses that could not survive competition with the "Walmartization" of the office supply business.

So the wealth that Romney and Bain gained from Staples came at the expense of hundreds of thousands of office supply workers-- a zero-sum game that Romney will never mention on the campaign trail.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-johnson/so-did-mitt-romney-really_b_1681248.html

werekoala 2 years, 10 months ago

I bet you begin a lot of sentences with, "Now, I'm not a racist, but..."

Biker 2 years, 10 months ago

Liberals, always good a spending other peoples money... Why can't they just acknowlege that capital is more efficiently used in the real economy, starting a business, producing products and employing people. Why does all public good have to occur through government? I am so sorry that it doesn't meet their standard of "fairness" or allow them to fund projects with other people's hard earned money. Taxes are a necessary evil, and should only be treated as such. To think otherwise would is as foolish as it is immoral.

BTW, is just me or does this author sound like they are wining?

werekoala 2 years, 10 months ago

Look pal, unless you're a wild-eyed anarchist, you support government.in some shape or form. And all government is, at its core, about spending other people's money.

You are free to believe we should spend other people's money on more tanks and fighter jets instead of those icky poor people. You can even say we should spend less of other people's money, and allow them to retain more if it.

But you can't wander into the Baskin Robins to condemn me for eating ice cream, when you're really just mad I chose chocolate over vanilla.

Nothing personal, I am just tired of hearing conservatives talk like radical libertarians while voting like fascists.

werekoala 2 years, 10 months ago

Look pal, unless you're a wild-eyed anarchist, you support government.in some shape or form. And all government is, at its core, about spending other people's money.

You are free to believe we should spend other people's money on more tanks and fighter jets instead of those icky poor people. You can even say we should spend less of other people's money, and allow them to retain more if it.

But you can't wander into the Baskin Robins to condemn me for eating ice cream, when you're really just mad I chose chocolate over vanilla.

Nothing personal, I am just tired of hearing conservatives talk like radical libertarians while voting like fascists.

Kirk Larson 2 years, 10 months ago

"BTW, is just me or does this author sound like they are wining?"

That's spelled "winning"!

heygary 2 years, 10 months ago

I first voted in the mid-60s ... Obama has done more to divide this country that any President in my recollection. There has been no HOPE … and the majority of the country does not appear to like the CHANGE we see. To see the level to which this President and his hench-people are willing to stoop to hold on to power is frightening.

Commenting has been disabled for this item.