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Archive for Friday, June 24, 2011

Attorney working on South Lawrence Trafficway lawsuit says attempt at mediation ended in impasse

June 24, 2011, 4:01 p.m. Updated June 24, 2011, 5:26 p.m.

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Parties in an ongoing lawsuit seeking to change the construction path for an extension of the South Lawrence Trafficway have tried mediation and come to an impasse, said an attorney for the plaintiffs in the case.

Earlier, U.S. District Judge Kathryn Vratil issued a 59-page decision affirming the process used by the Federal Highway Administration to align an extension of the trafficway along what would be 32nd Street. The route would complete the connection between Kansas Highway 10 and Interstate 70.

Prairie Band Potawatomi Nation and six other environmental groups who filed the lawsuit appealed the ruling to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in April.

They contend that the proposed route through the Baker Wetlands violates federal environmental law.

Bob Eye, an attorney representing the group wanting to move the road, said both parties had already tried mediation and didn’t come to a resolution.

David Aemmer, chief circuit mediator for the court of appeals in Denver, could not discuss the transportation case specifically, but he explained how mediation generally worked at the appeals court level.

He said that usually mediation for civil cases happens automatically. A staff of mediators will meet with attorneys from both sides and will determine whether a settlement can be arranged.

The meetings and discussions are confidential and can occur even as the regular court case is proceeding, Aemmer said.

The mediator’s office has the power to grant each side additional time to file briefs — as happened in this case, according to court documents.

That can be a sign that productive discussions toward a settlement are occurring, Aemmer said.

In this case, Eye said, the mediator allowing more time to file briefs “may have been more wishful thinking” than an indication that a settlement could be reached.

Comments

FlintlockRifle 3 years, 6 months ago

Get it bult, I am running out of time----getting old----waited 20 some odd years, does anyone know if the bridge over 59 highway where the bypass ends is still traffic worthy???? or will it have to replaced.

rockchalker52 3 years, 6 months ago

I've been waiting so long I'll probably need a bypass by the time they build it. Make mine a triple.

Clark Coan 3 years, 6 months ago

Nothing to mediate. Just build the road south of the wetlands.

redneck 3 years, 5 months ago

If that is so, then it's because it's owned by those evil white people (I'm an evil whitie). K10 going straight east of where it stopped, is the best place for it to go. I'm sorry, but the Native American people need to stop whinning about the past. I have lots of things to whine about myself, but the past does not matter anyway. Does this mean the government cannot take my land, because I have Muscular Dystrophy? Nope! I have to follow the same laws as everybody else does.

LogicMan 3 years, 6 months ago

Nothing to mediate. Just move the artificial wetlands south of the river.

trailertrash 3 years, 6 months ago

The additional wetlands negotiated formerly has already been built. If they decide to build it south of the river, then we will have to fight lawsuits to go through the new portion of the wetlands. Someone will have a bitch about it no matter where it is built. That is what Lawrence is all about. No one can agree with anyone else. Just build the damned thing where it is proposed now and let the complainers move on to their next issues.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 6 months ago

The most recently restored wetlands are also north of the river, so what you are saying makes no sense.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

How do you think the alternate route gets south of the river? It needs to cross the floodplain where the restored wetlands are. Smart move, right? KDOT made you think it was mitigating FOR the 32nd route, whereas in reality all they were doing was insuring that it would be even more difficult to change the route to SOR.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

You may be right. That'd certainly be more in keeping with their general approach to the environment.

But since they already claim that running a highway through wetlands has no effect on them, it really doesn't matter where they do it, now does it?

ahyland 3 years, 6 months ago

I just got a callback from an attorney on the case, who provided some good info on the mediation situation, so I updated the story with the new information.

Andy Hyland LJWorld reporter

Phase 3 years, 6 months ago

Andy, I think it would be interesting to see what the court costs (including attorney fees, from both sides of this issue) have been to date. Also, who is paying for both sides. While you're at it, why not compare the projected costs for the completed roadway at the first proposal to what they are now.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Court costs on opponents side = zero. Bob Eye is doing it pro-bono. On the other hand, the attorney for Prairie Band is being paid, good luck getting any information from them. Court costs on KDOT side - that's the question you might get an answer to

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

KDOT is the party responsible for any legal costs. They could have avoided them by going south of the river.

Comparing projected costs would interesting-- but not because the delay has had any real effect. The amount of the increase between initial projected costs and actual costs has been many times greater than inflation.

Not that we'll ever get any real insight into the way KDOT arrives at its projections, or the political pressures from movers and shakers and their profiteering at the government trough that are behind it.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

What you are really saying is that if KDOT had gone SOR there wouldn't be any legal fees caused by you. You can't possible think that there wouldn't have been any lawsuits from others in the path of the SOR? Even condemnation has legal costs and probably more than what this particular nuisance suit is costing. Keep in mind that KDOT lawyers are salaried not paid by the hour so these "astronomical legal fees" that everyone is screaming about are fictitious.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

Or, you could just as correctly say that KDOT's insistence on building a highway lots of people don't want is what's driving whatever legal fees there are.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

None, because the "environmental groups" haven't spent a dime. Prairie Band has spent money on their attorney, but they aren't doing this for the environment.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

Just because Eye and a few other lawyers are doing this pro bono doesn't mean it's free. Their expenses in doing this work are just as real the hired shysters for KDOT who are doing on the taxpayer's dime.

And even those who oppose this alignment are sharing in picking up the tab for KDOT's legal expenses.

Who chose you to speak for Prairie Band's intentions?

50YearResident 3 years, 6 months ago

Bob Eye is trying to change this old saying from "It's my way or the highway" to "It's my way or no highway"

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 6 months ago

No, that's what KDOT and the movers and shakers are saying.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 6 months ago

The $192 million budgeted in the new highway program would easily finance a route south of the river, even by KDOT estimates.

50YearResident 3 years, 6 months ago

If guys like you hadn't stopped this project 20 years ago the whole project could have done for $100 less than the $192 million cost now.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

If you believe that, I've got a bridge to nowhere that I'd be happy to sell you.

50YearResident 3 years, 5 months ago

Are you refering to the one that connects the western half of the bypass to the east side open space over Hy 59? I would like to buy that one. I think it will be a good investment.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

That's your theory and wish. You have no knowledge what the current estimate of going SOUTH would be. There would be 2 miles+ more of concrete, 2/4 more bridges, an elevated section at least 1/4 on the west and 1/2 mile on the east to span the floodway and a lot more ROW to purchase and you REALLY believe that would be less expensive? Buying ROW in the floodplain is much less expensive than buying land that is already zoned "Urban Growth Area"!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

KDOT has been completely dishonest in its estimates from the get go. And they still are. They want what they want, and they won't let a bunch of injunz and hippies get in their way. I expect that's as much behind this highway as the desire for pavement-- gotta keep the world safe for profiteering by movers and shakers at the government trough.

They'll do whatever they need to make sure it happens exactly the way they want, including having "concerned citizens" post drivel on this board.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Kinda sounds like a sore loser to me! They haven't been dishonest - that's why they are called "estimates" rather than "bids".

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

Sore loser? I suppose so. When the movers and shakers insist on something for no reasons other than satisfaction of their extreme narcissism and narrow self-interest, those who get steamrolled tend to be a little sore about it.

Yes, KDOT are dishonest. They refused a south of the river route because they said it would be too expensive, but the $192 million they now have budgeted is considerably higher than any of the previous estimates, including those for SOR.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

You are really being honest yourself aren't you? The current estimate of the the 32nd st route is $192 mill. Do you actually know what a SOR estimate is with current costs? No! So why do you think it is honest for you to compare the current cost of 32nd St to an old projection (actually about 4-6 years old in fact) of the SOR costs. Both are moving targets and you only have one of them. Do you really believe that KDOT insists on building roads in a given location because they are narcissistic and have a narrow self-interest? That really sounds more like the opponents to me.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Keep the Nature Conservancy out of this. They are smart enough not to take sides. They are not, nor have they ever been part of the law suit. The environmental groups are Sierra, Jayhawk AUdubon, KU Environs.

steveguy 3 years, 6 months ago

If the goverment would stop funding Haskell the problem would go away.

ljwhirled 3 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, because after conducting a genocidal campaign against the tribes for two centuries, we don't owe their descendants anything. Jack hole.

The least we can do (and looking at Haskell's current level of funding I do mean LEAST) is provide the tribes with education, healthcare and job training for a few generations.

The evil we have wrought in the past has not yet been redeemed. Give it another 100 years or so.

hujiko 3 years, 5 months ago

"The evil we have wrought in the past has not yet been redeemed. Give it another 100 years or so."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry, but that will simply never happen. We are going to pay quite harshly someday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

Armored_One 3 years, 5 months ago

Oh spare me this contrived "we owe them" nonsense.

Nothing is preventing any member of any tribe from joining the modern world instead of sulking on a reservation and pleading poverty. It's a purposeful choice on their part.

I suppose we should have sympathy for illegal drug users as well, or do you actually draw the line at something.

Are you willing to cough up your house and property, assuming you own the structure you're living in, and hand it over to the previous occupants, to put it nicely. If you are not willing to do that, then all you are doing is making more noise for the band.

Mike Ford 3 years, 6 months ago

steveguy and blue73harley, when do anti-intellectual and history devoid people do anything with the Nature Conservancy or the Sierra Club anyway? When did Peter Griffin of Family Guy fame join MENSA? Let's see what the white US Government has done in the past? completely underfund treaty obligations and allow people to starve and squatters to inhabit stolen lands. Ever heard of the New Ulm Massacre in Minnesota? it happened because your government ignored the Fort Snelling Treaty of 1851 and allowed Dakota people to starve and squatters to come in. Dakota people sought justice through fighting back and they were ethnically and geographically removed from most of Minnesota to live in exile in South Dakota, Nebraska, and Saskatchewan. This is one of a couple of hundred examples of your lying government. The New England Emigrant Aid Society squatted on Shawnee lands to found Lawrence in 1854. In 1887 US senator Henry Dawes pushed the Dawes Act on tribes taking their lands and giving them a pittance in return. My Choctaw ancestors registered for Choctaw lands in Oklahoma and were denied a part of their lands. What was the Termination Act of 1953? it freed tribes from federal recognition so that white people could have our water, our timber, and our natural resources. Another brilliant theft scheme. Why is Haskell funded? it is funded as an extension of the Civilization Act of 1819. You steal our lands and give us education through torture from the 1870's to the 1930's. It's amazing what historically stupid people say, but ignorance is being championed currently.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

"Keep living in the past dude. Keep letting that hatred consume you."

That is SOMETHING that Tuschie does well ! Let's praise him for something, he seems to be groping for praise from somewhere?

deec 3 years, 5 months ago

Environmental exploitation of indigenous peoples is not in the past. It is still occurring all over the country, and indeed the world.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 5 months ago

There was a war between Native folks and non-Native folks. Native folks lost. End of story. Everything since then has simply been gravy for the losers. Get over it.

sad_lawrencian 3 years, 6 months ago

Just build the damn highway already. Thank you.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

You do live in a virtual reality world of your own. To say that the Alaska Pipeline and Alligator Alley highway have benefitted wildlife is similar to saying that the flooding going on with the Missouri and earlier with the Missiissippi Rivers has nothing to do with climate change and global warming, and even if it did, humans had nothing to do with that. Get off your computer and actually visit the wetlands south of Lawrence - you might get a dose of reality. But take good repellent we all know it is an infested swamp...right!!

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

As I said before, the environmentalists haven't spent a dime on this lawsuit - its pro bono. But you are correct on the last sentence.

Steve Miller 3 years, 5 months ago

For the money spent on lawyers, politicans, debates , courts, they could have already built 3 bypasses with several resturants , rest areas and so on .. . It is trying to fill the ocean with a teaspoon.

Steve Miller 3 years, 5 months ago

They don't want to get it built, they are making to much money the way it is .

Darwin 3 years, 5 months ago

First off - In the past, the Baker Wetlands were not flooded until when we got Spring rains. Of course...beavers damming things up actually turned it into the "Wetlands" that it is today. I grew up in Lawrence and lived there until 2006, so yes I do remember.

Meaning no disrespect, but if I owned the property in question or the majority of people in general did...this would have already been a done deal. Kind of like the city coming in and building a sidewalk through your yard. Guess what - you have no choice and you have to provide the upkeep which is total BS. I agree...there were sad times and still are, but I owe no one an apology for things which were done in the past and currently to Native Americans or any other group. I did not do any injustices.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

You are implying that this has something to do with property rights? Baker University is the legal owner of the Baker Wetlands. They support completing the road through their own wetlands. They have been good stewards of the land in the past and continue to be. And yet no road! Why? Because we have a long list of laws and regulations and USACOE, FHWA, KDOT and others are doing everything they can to make sure it is done correctly. A big part of "doing it correctly" is to let everyone have their say. That is part of our democratic system. It does not mean you necessarily HAVE TO LISTEN or do what the opposition wants - but they have to have their opportunity to rant. The biggest problem seems to be the egos of the opponents. They believe that they are the only ones that are right. And so far their "rights to rant" have not run out. Just like the Phelps. We don't like what they have to say, but they have the right to say it. So try to take a deep breath, let them rant, and realize that when Bob Eye is quoted as saying it is at an impasse that is good news because we are that much closer to the time when the Circuit Court Judges say - "Times UP, KDOT wins."

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

"The biggest problem seems to be the egos of the opponents."

You're right-- it is egos, and their big fat wallets that want to get ever fatter. But it's the egos of the movers and shakers at play here. They are the ones who dictate where highways go, how big they are, and how much they're going to get paid for them.

And clearly, they are very frustrated that some folks indeed do rant about the rampant corruption involved in this entire process, right back to the time the land was ripped from Haskell and given to Baker for "educational purposes." Purposes that were shoved out the door for an $8 million bribe.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Oh come on Bozo! HINU had their chance at "success" as well. Have you forgotten that Mike Rees offered $10 mill plus for a new science building? Good luck getting something like that for HINU from BIA. Sometimes you need to look at reality. You think there is some big moral crime here for Baker to sell 56 acres of its own wetlands and trade it in for $8mill and 380 more acres. As KDOT has indicated before, the reality is that less than 10% of the wetlands will be destroyed (56/573), HINU actually gains about 30% of their wetland acres and if you could have swallowed your pride long enough to negotiate, you probably could have gotten a pedestrian overpass that could have also served as an observation deck as well. So much for allowing an opportunity to generate anything positive for HINU out of this. But at least you can say you stuck with your principles, right?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

Is it OK if I shoot your dog as long as I promise to get you a new one? (but I get to choose the replacement.)

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Is this supposed to convince us you aren't one step away from the white in white suits?

Flap Doodle 3 years, 5 months ago

If the opponents didn't see themselves as Gandalf on the bridge, this could have been settled ages ago.

Armored_One 3 years, 5 months ago

Nice... I needed the laugh... thanks =)

Jimo 3 years, 5 months ago

If those darn Indians just weren't in our way!

That sentiment could sum up most of American history.

Scott Morgan 3 years, 5 months ago

Hey folks a modern 4 lane superhighway is being built, in fact finalizing the bridge on Douglas County 458 within sight of Lawrence proper as I peck.

If nothing is done the new highway will end in the Wallie World parking lot.

Geez we can do better than this, what a joke. Is it ancestral sacred lands or a turtle humping pond? Anywho, would be a fun drive through just like the thousands of swamp miles in Florida. Maybe we would see a raccoon or native beaver.

JulieCRea 3 years, 5 months ago

Until the decision can be made, can't we just install a stoplight at 31st & Louisiana as well as 31st & Haskell? That wouldn't be as expensive and at least might help traffic flow until the decision is made.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

immigrants mock others because they don't have historical memory here. Here's the present history the dense people deny. The wetlands were purchased in parcels with congressional tribal funds between 1885 and 1904. The farming occurred in spite of constant flooding. In 1934, the farming program moved to Chilocco Indian School. During FDR the Indian New Deal occured promoting the ability of tribes to stop land theft by allotment and the restarting of tribal governments through the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 after tribal governments were disbanded by the US Government so that more land could be stolen. In 1949, a federal surplus lands act was passed. In 1953, the US Congress began a fire sale of legal tribal identity with House Resolution 108 which resulted in termination of federal recognition for 200 tribes . As tribal nations federal recognition was dissolved white resource seekers snapped up timber, water, fossil fuels, and land. Terminated tribes included the Menominee, Wyandotte, Peoria, Ottawa, Modoc, Northern Ponca, Alabama Coushatta, Siletz, Grand Ronde, amongst many. Termination was attempted on the Kansas Tribes in the 1950's, but the Potawatomi and Kickapoo tribes successfully fought this congressional act and survived with federal recognition intact to this day. In this same period, Public Law 47 was passed allowing for 20 acres of land to be ceded at ONE Time which explains all of the twenty acre parcels that Arrowhead Park and the schools are built on. Public Law 87 called for 50 acres to be ceded at ONE time. Both laws were codifed as Title 25, Chapter 7, Section 293a, or the Federal Indian School Surplus Lands Act of 1962. With federal guidelines on paper, why did the Baker peoples have to circumvent these FEDERAL REGS to launder (Steal) the lands through Health Education and Welfare Department? They act like such pious protectors of land they seek to exploit for name recognition. Sacred sites legislation, burial site protection, historical protection.... all legitimate points ignored by the current kansans who seek to promote their beloved past of stealing Indian land for transportation projects. Lawrence, Leavenworth, & Galveston Railroad, built in 1867 and abandoned in 1980. It took the lands of the Sac and Fox, Ottawa, and Osage peoples. Union Pacific Eastern Division built in the mid 1860's on the stolen lands of the Delaware and Citizen Band Potawatomi people. Leavenworth Pawnee, & Western, built on stolen Kickapoo lands after 1862 treaty. South Lawrence Trafficway, proposed on tribal farming lands that double as traditional worship area for Indians rejecting the violent suppression of their religious beliefs by overzealous christians, stolen by a protestant university following in the same steps as Ottawa University who had the Indian Claims Commission of the US Government pay for their sins. Theft then, theft now, too bad you don't know or own your own history. priceless.....

Scott Morgan 3 years, 5 months ago

tuscha, I respect your spirit. On the other hand my people the Welsh were never conquered by a foreign invasion, including the Romans and Huns.

Romans thought of Wales as not worthy. Or, we need to get over things.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Grudges can eat you up. I try to look at life as an opportunity to make the world a better place by helping the environment. I'm not too much into the people aspect. They always end up screwing the environment, and this pretty much includes native people. I get that you feel that everything hinges on the injustices done to native peoples in the past (and I would assume the present). But I can't seem to see that you are making any headway with the anger thing. Do you find that people don't like being around you? You need to get some counseling and release some of this anger, man!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 5 months ago

You don't give a crap about the environment. You want your pavement, and the hierarchical structure that's behind it, and you'll throw any crap out there that you think will further that cause, no matter how duplicitous you need to be.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Must have offended Bozo! Calling me a liar now! Who elected you as my spokesperson on my intentions? What is very clear is that you are the one that doesn't care about the wetlands - the environment! You only care about this property because of the fictitious past you have made up in numerous stories that you tell anyone who will listen. The only time you give mention to the ecosystem is when you think it might lend credibility to your fiction. If you had any environmental reasoning ability you would realize the overwhelming advantages of the 32nd st alignment over the SOR alignment.

Armored_One 3 years, 5 months ago

"Build it south of the river. Build it south of the river! Builkd it south of the river demmit!!!"

Can you foam at the mouth a bit harder, or have you reached a critical foam overflow point?

Honestly.

Up the bridge on the south side of town is already built. Are you suggesting a 90 degree curve or something to suddenly jerk it south? Let here some concrete (pun not intended) plans on how you think it could be built without wasting the money that has already been dropped into the existing section of the SLT. Obviously you MUST know what you are talking about, since you demand it be built and how it would be cheaper all around.

Or are you just spewing noise out the seat of your pants for no better reason than to hear your own ego talking?

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

this is not about grudges in fact your inference as such just furthers what little concept you have of this country and the history it won't own up to. This isn't about anger your inference to anger is just a conveinient sidestep to history you're oblivous to. I can sit and write what I wrote off of the top of my head because I've learned and studied and experienced because I don't have hangups about the past and I don't go patriotic to whitewash it. I love how you defend the mythology of this country and it's righteous and fair and balanced view of it's sins. My knowledge of the past and it's connection to the present and future can be seen in a circle of repeated bad behavoir I've learned by studying a history you denigrate. I have nothing to get over but you use ruses to duck the history I speak of like I have some previous life dementia. It's simple, own your history and stop commiting the sins of it in the present. Chi pisali chikki. It's Choctaw you know.

Armored_One 3 years, 5 months ago

Out of curiosity, how many Indian tribes were wiped out by other Indian tribes?

And one other question, Tusch, if I might impose.

I am assuming you would applaud the return of all lands "stolen" by the "white man". Is that true or am I wrong in that?

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

"this is not about grudges..." "This isn't about anger..." "I don't have hangups..." "I don't go patriotic..."

Oh, OK. Now that I think about it - you're right. That's because you are always right!?! History is not so much factual, as it is a "translation" of the past based on someone else's interpretation. That interpretation is ALWAYS influenced by the interpreter's past experiences and what they hold to be true. If we both wrote a history of the SLT mine would start with homesteading of the area in 1854 and talk mostly about how the environment has been changed by the people that were in the area making the changes leading up to the wetlands that are there today and how the mitigation that Baker is going to do will insure that those wetlands continue to be there in the future. Your history will start somewhere back where you believe the first humans came into the area and would focus on all the hatred, stealing, killing, cheating, trickery that any white person, and most likely those related to the Methodist Church (perhaps because you want to rub your father's nose in it) have ever laid upon the native peoples that have ever lived or moved thru here and by extension anyone that they are related to or may be related to and it will all be about people with no concern about the environment and that the cheating, stealing university and the corrupt professors named Boyd all colluded to steal the land from Haskell turn it back into some fake version of its former self and then sold ALL of it for their own personal profit. The sad thing is that you will read this, miss my point entirely, and just say something like - well at least he got my version of history right, the only version that is factual and truthful!!!

redneck 3 years, 5 months ago

Not sure what the past has to do with the SLT. I'm sorry about what my ancestors did to you're ancestors in the past. I know it was wrong. It wasn't me who did that to you're ancestors, so why are you making me pay for something I did not do? And how long are you going to make me and my children pay, for what our ancestors did? While we are at it, lets pay everybody my ancestors wronged in the past. Lets pay the African Americans for making them slaves, and the Mexicans for taking their land, and the women for making them second class citizens, and the mentally ill for putting them into institutions, and the people with disabilities for putting them into institutions, and the list goes on and on and on and on and on. The SLT is not a sin; you simply got out voted. The majority thinks we need this, and you need to get over you're self. If this was my land, and I'm as white as the Pillsbury doughboy, it would have been built years ago. The government takes white people's land to build shopping malls, but God forbid we take land from Native Americans to build a much-needed bypass. Get over it!

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

ALL of the land you all live on was taken by your government. The land you're trying to build through was taken by your government and laundered illegally in the last forty years so that you could be paid to desecrete other peoples who have legal rights which upset your apple cart until you get know nothing minority oppressing republicans in office who's idea of smaller government is shutting up and limiting the scope of authority government agencies to allow you to pull off this nonsense in spite of all the laws and legitimate reasons to the contrary. You are so disconnected you don't see how all of your actions play up to this day. I don't rub my father's nose in it. He thinks you all are in the wrong and he thinks the church should do more than have some Shawnee Wyandotte Methodist reconciliation ceremony on the Baker campus that does nothing except assuage White guilt so that people can go out and commit sins against others again in the form of this road. I've studied the past, and the present to talk about what I talk about. You just don't like being pinned down so you change the subject. Sorry your boarding schools and your white washing history denying colleges that only teach the George Will Pat Buchanan view of history didn't reach me. in the early 19th century there was a Methodist Pequot minister, William Apess, who spoke of the atrocities committed against his people by colonists being driven into a swamp and burned alive with the survivors being sold as slaves to the other tribes and the West Indies in the 1630's. He mysteriously disappeared for his critical talk to be never seen again and of course the Pequots have all the haters and the Foxwoods casino in Connecticut currently. You don't know history and this is why you have no clue as to the sins you're commiting with this project. I pity you.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 5 months ago

There was a war. The white folks beat the native folks. Sorry. The sooner you get past your obsession on history (true or false) the quicker the native folks will prosper. On the other hand, the tribes could declare war again over treaty obligations. That would be fun.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

ALL of the land you all live on was taken by your government. The land you're trying to build through was taken by your government and laundered illegally in the last forty years so that you could be paid to desecrete other peoples who have legal rights which upset your apple cart until you get know nothing minority oppressing republicans in office who's idea of smaller government is shutting up and limiting the scope of authority government agencies to allow you to pull off this nonsense in spite of all the laws and legitimate reasons to the contrary. You are so disconnected you don't see how all of your actions play up to this day. I don't rub my father's nose in it. He thinks you all are in the wrong and he thinks the church should do more than have some Shawnee Wyandotte Methodist reconciliation ceremony on the Baker campus that does nothing except assuage White guilt so that people can go out and commit sins against others again in the form of this road. I've studied the past, and the present to talk about what I talk about. You just don't like being pinned down so you change the subject. Sorry your boarding schools and your white washing history denying colleges that only teach the George Will Pat Buchanan view of history didn't reach me. in the early 19th century there was a Methodist Pequot minister, William Apess, who spoke of the atrocities committed against his people by colonists being driven into a swamp and burned alive with the survivors being sold as slaves to the other tribes and the West Indies in the 1630's. He mysteriously disappeared for his critical talk to be never seen again and of course the Pequots have all the haters and the Foxwoods casino in Connecticut currently. You don't know history and this is why you have no clue as to the sins you're commiting with this project. I pity you.

xclusive85 3 years, 5 months ago

Tuschkahouma, quite the rant there. While I don't disagree with most of what you wrote here and in other comments on other articles, there is something I must ask you. Why do you feel that the White People should be held to a standard that was nonexistent in the Native Americans. Natives have also committed atrocities against other Natives, no? Some tribes conquered others and took their land, mated with their women, and changed their culture, correct? So, if all Natives could not live in peace with each other, why do you want the White People to have done so?

Boston_Corbett 3 years, 5 months ago

Maybe Tuschie can drop by and pick up a deed to Bozo's house.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

american indian studies might as well happen here. One, the US Constitution assigned plenary power to the US Congress over Indian Affairs in the Commerce Clause. Even after the Indian Non-Intercourse Act of 1790 was passed prohibiting the taking of lands by states without an act of congress, the thirteen colonies all were formed by tribal lands taken illegally by colonies without an act of congress. these colonies got away with this from 1790 to 1974 when the Oneida and Cayuga tribes sued for hundred of thousands of acres of land taken without an act of congress. Subsequent tribes like the Narragansett, Pequot, Passamaquoddy, Abnaki, Penobscot, and Catawba tribes all sued and got land returned as states violated the law. Republicans couldn't handle the truth so they gamed the power of the federal government like cowards always do and went the state's rights route attacking the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 to cripple Narragansett land acquisition after the Narragansett legislature illegally stole their remaining lands in 1880. Are you all that proud of being thieves?? better go pray about it....

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

"this is not about grudges..." "This isn't about anger..." "I don't have hangups..." "I don't go patriotic..." I am truly amazed that you are able to carry around all this knowledge without being a bigot and at the same time having room in your heart to pity us white people for our ignorant, selfish ways. I feel honored to not know you! People do stupid, crazy, mean stuff to each other all the time. They seem to manage to survive and procreate and leave more and more offspring. I'm not too concerned about it (especially stuff that happened generations ago!). Like Kelly Barth, I think we should be more concerned about the environment, whether Bozo accepts that are not, I also don't care. The completion of the SLT on 32nd St and the mitigation that KDOT, the Corps, and Baker Univ have come up with will more than compensate for the environmental loss created by the road. The environment will recover well and except for a few old grumpies like Tuschie and Bozo, the people will recover and move on as well.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

will the bones your bulldozers desecrete recover? will the anguish of the ancestors you desecrete recover? you have no memory therefore you have no remorse. Why should you have any memory, you're an American.... do the Oklahomans who committed the Greenwood massacre in Tulsa in 1921 have any memory? do the Builderback descendants in Ohio have any memory of how in 1782 one Charles Builderback tied up Christian Munsee Indians and beat them to death with his own bare hands. The Munsee descendants of nearby Pomona, Kansas do. Charles Pratt designed boarding schools to beat the Indian out of young kids. Sorry Idahowinds, they're still Indian and so am I. Haskell was one of the beat the Indian out of them boarding schools and the United Methodist Church ran Haskell on behalf of the US Government. No separation of state when the churches were doing the dirty work of assimilation. Only naive people move on and ask for forgiveness if they even admit wrong in the first place. Naivity speaks volumes in America.

Armored_One 3 years, 5 months ago

"you have no memory therefore you have no remorse"

You weren't alive when the majority of the stuff you bring up happened, Tusch, so you have no memory of it either. All you have is what has been told to you by others, none of which were alive when 99% of this excrement happened. Hypocrit.

And you still haven't answered my question about whether you would want the lands that were "stolen" returned. If all you can do is rant and rave, then maybe we should just lump you in with Fred Phelps.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

firstly, spell hypocrite right. Secondly, I've been to Wounded Knee. I've been through Greenwood in Tulsa. I grew up near Gnadenhutten in Ohio. I was alive as this land was laundered in the early 1970's. I remember Mr. Boyd's tractor accident when I was young in Baldwin City. I' ve been a historian since I was young. I saw Poverty Point in Louisiana as a ten year old and visited a number of Civil War and Indian sites in LA and MS before I was a teenager. Heck, my father took me to the Lorriane Motel in Memphis where MLK was assasinated when I was three. The church where my father preached in Elyria, Ohio, had speakers from the American Indian Movement speak to the youth in the early 1970's. I've absorbed history my whole life because I grew up in historical parts of Ohio, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Kansas and I listened to people and read as a young child. History from a textbook wasn't spoonfed to me. The land should be deeded to the Prairie Band Potawatomi Nation and away from Baker.

Armored_One 3 years, 5 months ago

Have you talked to anyone that was alive when these events happened? If not, you were spoonfed history.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

texting, the de-evolution of american communication.

Flap Doodle 3 years, 5 months ago

secondly, spell desecrate right. You are a laff riot sometimes, tushy.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

A Traditional Cultural Property (TCP) is a sacred place associated with cultural practice and beliefs. Traditional Cultural Properties are rooted in the history of a community. They are important in maintaining the continuity of the community’s practices and traditional beliefs. --Brian Haley. et al.

TCP's are a property, or a place, that is eligible for inclusion on the Nation Register of Historic Places because of its association with cultural practices and beliefs. --Patricia L. Parker

Differences between traditional cultural properties and other kinds of historic properties is that their significance cannot be determined solely by historians, ethnographer, ethnohistorians, ethnobotanists, and other professionals. TCP’s are determined by the cultures that value them. --Patricia L. Parker

The National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 is to “preserve the historical and cultural foundations of the Nation as living parts of community life.” Traditional Cultural Properties are supported by the Amendment 1992 and section 101(d) and 110, 106.

Mike Ford 3 years, 5 months ago

The third paragraph pretty much nails the empirical point of legitimacy that those people including me have in opposing your road. Numerous indigenous cultures indicated that the wetlands were sacred to them in written testimony to the Corps of Engineers during the scoping process of the EIS. The lie here is that the railroaders of Indians gave no legitimacy to the TCP claim because they knew their road was toast if they did. I found an eight page letter I wrote to the US Army Corps of Engineers nine years ago concerning all of this stuff wrong with this road project.

Mr. Brockington did elementary research without really digging on his report that all of the road builders worship like a religious document. He said all we did was hold a yearly event pow-wow and that was the extent of our cultural beliefs....REALLY!!!!

Did he report on the all night wake held on Haskell campus for the Creek elder Dempsey Mikko that I attended? bear in mind that in most indigenous cultures it is sacreligious to speak of the dead. With this in mind did this white ethnologist really expect anyone to violate their own religious beliefs to be quantified by some stranger that would disregard them anyway????

This land was used by Caddoan cultures for plant gathering a thousand or more years ago. The Dhegian peoples, being either Kaw or Osage were all through this area collecting medicinal plants. People talk all the time about all of the medicinal discoveries made in the Amazon by indigenous people there. Duh, it happened here also.

Boarding schools were initiated by Colonel Richard Pratt after working with Comanche, Apache, Cheyenne, and Kiowa POW's at a Florida prison in the mid 1870's. Tribal languages and beliefs were criminally prohibited by law at federal boarding schools by the mid 1880's. This ban didn't end on paper until the early 1990's. Once the ban was lifted the prayer area in the back of the campus was created. I love how these clowns claim that the prayer area was created to stop the SLT. Delusion is nice. In response to the zealousness of Christianity in the 19th century students went to the wetlands to speak and pray in their tribal languages. That's why the area is sacred. If they did so on campus, beatings, soap in the mouth, food denial, and imprisonment occured. Some Christians must be proud of their culture. None of this will mean anything to dummies but oh well. When does history matter to dummies anyway.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 5 months ago

Tuschie, You claim that this isn't about a grudge and it isn't about anger. You have the right to say what you believe. But, you also need to understand that most people find you as an extremist looking for publicity for irrational demands without any real rational support. Sure, you can quote all of these offensive actions from the past all across the country but to try to claim that those have any real connection to using <10% of the Baker Wetlands for a road is a plain, irrational disconnect. As I have said in the past - to you this is a symbol of insensitivity. I get that, but in reality, after the road is built, life will go on, the 90% of the Baker Wetlands still present will still be just as sacred. In fact, north of the new roads will be a new, expanded wetlands that will be just as sacred (maybe even more so since it is a frame of mind, rather than reality) as the Baker Wetlands, and they will be much more available than in the past. But then again, who am I to dictate anything to you? If you want to go ahead and carry around that angry grudge...I guess that's your choice?

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