To the editor:
As a Christian who served 21 years in the field artillery, including combat with a MLRS rocket battalion in the Gulf War, I disagree with both opinions regarding “How does God feel about war?” expressed in the March 13 Faith Forum.
The Hebrew word “ratsach” in the 6th Commandment (Exodus 20:13) is properly translated “Thou shalt not murder,” not “kill.” Many Old Testament faith heroes cited in Hebrews 11 were men of war. After Abram pursued and routed the four kings, Melchizedek, the “priest of God Most High,” blessed him (Genesis 14:13-20). King David fought many battles and 2 Samuel 8:6 states: “The Lord gave David victory wherever he went.”
Neither does the New Testament condemn killing and war indiscriminately. Christ praised the faith of the Centurion without telling him to find another occupation (Matthew 8:5-13). While Christ had the disciple sheath his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane, He also stated He could call on the Father for more than 12 legions of angels. “But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled” regarding his sacrifice? (Matthew 26:50-54) Christ told the disciples who would remain on earth following his death and resurrection “if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:35-37)
A thorough analysis of Biblical teaching on war and killing can be found in the essay “May a Christian Serve in the Military?” by LTG (Ret.) William Harrison, Jr., which can be accessed at http://www.ocfusa.org/articles/harrison-christian-serve.php.
Comments
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audball (anonymous) says…
I agree with everything you've said here, Mr. Ramsdell, and I thank you for having the spine to write this. And I thank you also for spending 21 years of your life defending my way of life. May God bless you and yours. Nos Nostraque Deo.
bkgarner (Brent Garner) says…
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
~ John Stuart Mill
Liberty_One (anonymous) says…
How about what we think of war and not what some 2000 year old book from a genital mutilation cult in the ancient near east says about it?
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
I expect the average Jihadi could find equal justification for mass murder in the Koran.
normal_entire_route (anonymous) says…
stone cold crazy...
fighting as an offensive and fighting out of fear is what a bully does. It is not patriotic. There are plenty of countries that are free and don't go around killing and destroying other countries that still feel they are plenty patriotic. We should follow their humane example.
and bullies are indiscriminate...who do I want to bully today, North Korea, Iran or Iraq?
tange (anonymous) says…
"Blessed are the peacemakers."
rduhrich (anonymous) says…
I hope you remember your justification if you're ever lying dying from a terrorist's bomb. Remember, his god said it was OK to kill , too.
Jimo (anonymous) says…
I hardly think that a sanitized Bible reference to a Roman centurion and his same sex lover is a very convincing piece of evidence about God's attitude toward war. If the human authors of the New Testament and the human assemblers of the Bible needed to alter the clear text to push their own agenda to obscure one clear message, how much less clearly can we rely on the secondary and even tertiary dicta of the Bible to glimpse the Jesus hidden within?
Worry less about extracting guidance from what Christ is not recorded to have said or done (hardly proof that he did not say or do) than what is recorded as his words and actions. How are Christians to view war? How many did Christ kill in holy battle? The answer to these questions are the same.
Ludus (anonymous) says…
Anyone who believes killing is justifiable based on what their imaginary friend told someone else 2,300 years ago or so, probably shouldn't be allowed outside unsupervised, or near children.
JustNoticed (anonymous) says…
Hey Bob,
Well put and all good reasons to find another mythology for moral guidance since the set of imaginings you defend are not quite up to the task.
Liberty One, "... genital mutilation cult". Good one and it reminds me of the amazingly devious treachery the sons of Jacob pulled off resulting in the slaughter of all the males of Shechem.
Today's religion, tomorrow's mythology.
Get over your magic thinking. Reality is much more interesting.
mr_right_wing (anonymous) says…
There always has been, and there will always be war.
The only way to completely end war would be to flush out every bit of evil...
...and that isn't going to happen.
The weak, abused and exploited need to be protected, so we have war.
mr_right_wing (anonymous) says…
Incidentally, Tom Hanks proved himself to be a moron and idiot with his WWII comments.
His character 'Forrest Gump' could have made much more relevant and accurate statements.
mr_right_wing (anonymous) says…
Incidentally, Tom Hanks proved himself to be a moron and idiot with his WWII comments.
His character 'Forrest Gump' could have made much more relevant and accurate statements.
BorderRuffian (anonymous) says…
normal_entire_route asks, "who do I want to bully today? North Korea, Iran, Iraq?"
Normal, you ain't normal. The worlds finest bullies come out of North Korea, Iran, and Iraq - Kim Jong Il, Achmadinijad, and Saddam Hussein (at least we got HIM). Who do we want to bully? Rather, oughtn't it be, "which bully are we willing to protect the rest of the world from?"
Being strong carries with it an obligation. An obligation not to go out and just start wars to be bullies or for power or financial gain, but rather an obligation to serve the rest of the world, stepping in, when we must, to stop real bullies from holding the rest of us hostage.
AreUNorml (anonymous) says…
what an utterly senseless book filled to the rim with plagiarized misinformation. One could live a more wholesome and meaningful life if they'd taken their scripture from Karate Kid II.
denak (anonymous) says…
I don't think the answer can be found in questions such as Should Christians participate in a war or what God thinks of war. I think think the answer lies in what type of war a person is participating in.
If the war is a just war and fought in a just manner, then the war is necessary to prevent the destruction of *more* human life and to stop an aggressor.
It is naive to say that there should never be war or that we should *always* turn the other cheek. Yes, peace is harder to obtain and to practice but killing an individual in self-defense (or fighting a war in self-defense) is not a sinful act. There were 6 million people slaughtered by Nazi Germany. How many more would have been killed had the allied powers not went to war with Germany? Sometimes, war is necessary.
However, for the record, the war in Iraq is not considered a just war because it was based on the faulty premise of a preemptive strike.
Dena
bkgarner (Brent Garner) says…
Denak,
I wish to point out something regarding your comments relative to the 2nd War with Iraq--2003.
First point. The 1st War with Iraq--called Gulf War 1 (1991)--did not end in a peace treaty. It ended in a cease fire. A cease fire is just what the name says--a temporary ceasation of fighting. Yes, cease fire's can become very prolonged--see Korean War. In the case of Gulf War 1, Saddam was given 17 conditions he had to meet in order to keep the cease fire in place. He met none of them. Any US President from the end of Gulf War 1 up to now would have been justified in re-opening hostilities with Iraq solely on that basis. In fact, legally, the authorization to use force passed by Congress in Jan '91 was still in force. No further authroization was required.
Second point. Gulf War 2--2003-- can be broken down into two major phases: Defeat of the enemy and occupation. The first phase went very smoothly. The second phase was a botch up not because of the military but because of decisions made in Washington. On that point, Mr. Bush et al, are firmly guilty.
SnakeFist (anonymous) says…
You're looking to the Bible for moral teaching? Consider this:
1. God demanded and sanctioned human sacrifices (Leviticus, Judges, and Samuel);
2. God killed the first-born child of every Egyptian family (Exodus);
3. God sanctioned slavery (Exodus, Leviticus).
4. God sanctioned the selling of one’s daughter (Exodus);
5. God commanded death for heresy, for violating the Sabbath, for cursing one’s parents, for adultery, and unchastity (in women only) at the time of marriage (Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy).
I guess that makes all of these actions morally permissible too, huh?
independant1 (anonymous) says…
USA does carry the biggest stick in the world. Our (USA) intentions are honest and it takes a plurality in the Congress to project our power.
When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion. Abraham Lincoln
In general I feel we (Judeo-Christian country) are doing good things that try to protect the sanctity of human life. Do islamic extremists pretend to protect the sanctity of human life, nope. Go Army!
just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (anonymous) says…
"Our (USA) intentions are honest"
A poster child for the effectiveness of Republican propaganda.
independant1 (anonymous) says…
The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank. Dante Gabriel Rossetti
independant1 (anonymous) says…
An independant thinker. We are millions upon millions my friend.
purplesage (anonymous) says…
The wise and well spoken words of General Douglas MacArthur, on the occasion of the surrender of the Japanese aboard the USS Missouri:
Today the guns are silent. A great tragedy has ended. A great victory has been won....
As I look back upon the long, tortuous trail from those grim days of Bataan and Corregidor, when an entire world lived in fear, when democracy was on the defensive everywhere, when modern civilization trembled in the balance, I thank a merciful God that he has given us the faith, the courage and the power from which to mold victory. We have known the bitterness of defeat and the exultation of triumph, and from both we have learned there can be no turning back. We must go forward to preserve in peace what we won in war.
A new era is upon us. Even the lesson of victory itself brings with it profound concern, both for our future security and the survival of civilization. The destructiveness of the war potential, through progressive advances in scientific discovery, has in fact now reached a point which revises the traditional concepts of war.
Men since the beginning of time have sought peace.... Military alliances, balances of power, leagues of nations, all in turn failed, leaving the only path to be by way of the crucible of war. We have had our last chance. If we do not now devise some greater and more equitable system, Armageddon will be at our door. The problem basically is theological and involves a spiritual recrudescence and improvement of human character that will synchronize with our almost matchless advances in science, art, literature and all material and cultural development of the past two thousand years. It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh.
verity (anonymous) says…
A just war fought in a just manner . . . ? ? Is that possible? You can't sanitize war, no matter how you might try. Innocents will be destroyed---it has always been so. Collateral damage. If you believe in a just war, you still have to realize and accept that unjust things are going to happen.
It seems that the Bible both condemns and supports war, as evidenced by the passages quoted here and in the original article and comments. I'm confused.
My theory is that war is caused by an excess of testosterone.
verity (anonymous) says…
I have another theory. If we had a draft, there would be a lot more people on the streets protesting our ongoing wars.
witchfindergeneral (anonymous) says…
Great points, SnakeFist. It's fascinating how religious people are capable of picking and choosing which parts of the "Word of God" should be applied to modern society. Mr. Ramsdell has no problem using the Old Testament to validate war yet he likely wouldn't use the same text to argue that adulterous women must be summarily executed. Then again, inconsistency and hypocrisy have always been cornerstones of organized religion.
"While Christ had the disciple sheath his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane, He also stated He could call on the Father for more than 12 legions of angels."
Well, it's hard--nay, impossible!--to argue against the logic of that reasonable statement.
beatrice (anonymous) says…
Spectator I: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Mrs. Gregory: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Gregory: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
RKLOG (Mark Andrew) says…
According to the bible, god made the guns, the bullets, and fingers who fire them, as well as the target who collects them. Stop reading fairy tales and put the guns down. Thanks.
igby (anonymous) says…
Satan will kill everyone anyway when the time comes. It's not God who will destroy the world but Satan, out of envy, because mankind will out do even Satan, when it come to evil.
These, Mad scientist around the world are already plotting to kill everyone with nanotechnology delivered via from orbiting space lasers. They're already mapping the worlds gene pools with nanotechnology that's hidden in dairy products and other processed foods. They collect them from the sewer systems. There using your tax dollars in planning for your assimilation just like the "Borg" on "Star Trek".
They will have you mapped and probed without you even knowing that their nano's have been in your corn-holy-oh! Lol.
They can fly these nano's at the speed of light and land them anywhere on the Globe in seconds.
Just watch these clips and listen real close to what they're not telling you about what they are really doing with CERN and nanotechnology and their cryogenic labs.
http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/Outr...
igby (anonymous) says…
http://kingjbible.com/revelation/13.htm
The Beast is CERN!
"one hour with the Beast and they were all of like minds"
The Seven heads and ten horns are the European Union and all the countries that support CERN!
igby (anonymous) says…
"Who can wage war with the Beast"...ie when the entire population of the earth has been marked with these nano's that tell the beast who and where they are?
This is the envy of Satan, even Satan will ask God for the sword!
igby (anonymous) says…
The Beast is the number of a man, not one man, but every man and every man will have a number and the beast will control your thoughts via. CERN and nanotechnology. The second beast, that's in Chicago, the smaller model of CERN.
wounded_soldier (anonymous) says…
Actually Bozo, Islam condemns any killing that is not in self defense. Killing of one person is like the killing of all mankind.
denak (anonymous) says…
Sorry Paulette, your assumptions are incorrect. First of all, there is no great secret that there are two sets of "10 Commandments" in the Bible. Anyone who has actually studies the Bible can tell you that. There is the Ethical Decalogue found in Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5. which actually consist of 14 to 15 commandments in those passages depending on the translations and then there is the Ritual Decalogue found in Exodus 34:11-22.
The 10 Commandments were not given to "the Jews," they were given to the Isrealites. It wasn't until after the death of King Solomon that the Kingdom of Israel was divided into Isreal and Judah. The people who lived in Judah were then called Jews and the religion they practiced was called Judaism.
Furthermore, even though you want to make the different translations into a big 'conspiracy,' there really isn't one any more than there is a big discrepancy between laws written in the U.S. in the 19th century and laws written in 20th century. The 10 Commandments consist of 3 theological laws and 7 community laws. Since laws were passed down orally from generation to generation, the differences in the two sets of 10 Commandments account for the differences in oral tradition as well as the differences in communal standards of the 12 different tribes.
Dena
igby (anonymous) says…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35949801/...
They're firing this beam into space, to a orbiting receiver and then back down to earth where ever they want it.
igby (anonymous) says…
Like Jesus said, the size of a "grain of a mustard seed". Small, little black holes that will go away and disappear! Right!
I wonder how these Scientist will feel when they're all rounded up and on that lonesome private jet ride headed to the Vatican where the Swiss Guard will have a pike, await their squinting bung-holy-oh's! Lol.
There is nothing stopping them from doing what ever they want to who ever they want anywhere in the world!
denak (anonymous) says…
"......A just war fought in a just manner . . . ? ? Is that possible? You can't sanitize war, no matter how you might try. Innocents will be destroyed---it has always been so. Collateral damage. If you believe in a just war, you still have to realize and accept that unjust things are going to happen....."
Verity,
That isn't what just war theory teaches. Just war theory does not mean that innocent people will not be killed or that one can fight a way without casualties and destruction.
Just war theory is broken down into two parts: Jus ad bellum, which is the right to war, and Jus in bello, which is conduct in war.
Jus ad bellum lists 7 criteria for a war to be just. The criteria are as follows: just cause, comparative justice, legitimate authority, right intention, probability of success, last resort and proportionality. What is all basically breaks down to is that a war can be termed a "just war" if that war is engaged in as a matter of self-defense, in order to correct or overthrow a regime that is illegitimate or that is engaging in massive violations of human rights or genocide, and that the the weapons used and the destruction wrought can not be disproportionate to the freedoms and lives gained.
Jus in bello concerns itself with the *conduct* of the combatants once the war starts. It is theoretically possible to fulfill the criteria for jus ad bellum and yet fight a war that is contrary to it. However, Jus in bello dictates that conduct must be conducted with distinction, proportionality and out off military necessity. Just war theory recognizes that there will be civilian causalities but the number of civilians killed can not be disproportionate to the good.
There are numerous books, both secular and religious, that explore just war theory. Many Christian religions adhere to the concept of "just wars," some do not.
What most Christians, or Jews, or Muslims, or Buddhists, or (fill in the blank) believe does not come from just one source (ie their Holy Book) but also from the hundreds of years of theological and political thought that has also arisen so it isn't as simple as to say "The Bible says this" or "the Bible says that." what people also have to look at is the religious and political tradition since the Bible.
Dena
igby (anonymous) says…
http://q2cfestival.com/play.php?lectu...
igby (anonymous) says…
http://q2cfestival.com/play.php?lectu...
http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/O...
igby (anonymous) says…
http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/E...
igby (anonymous) says…
http://www.crystalinks.com/quatrainsc...
igby (anonymous) says…
Follow the chatter from these Scientist at this link. There real quite about their activities at CERN, and what their doing. Their all Russians it seems.
http://www.hotforwords.com/forums/top...
igby (anonymous) says…
http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/Outr...
They're using a satellite to bounce this wave around the globe.
I wonder if they are causing all the earthquakes? Just a thought!
Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…
Someday, when or if we mature as a species and leave all our ancient myths behind, we may move beyond 'my god can beat up your god' and learn to live by the nearly universal precepts expressed by those who really follow a religion. This is best summarized in the Three Jewels of the Tao: Compassion, humility and moderation. Good luck, humanity. Zeus, Hera, Thor and all the others are now just literary figures. We have two-three more skygods to go into the trashbin of history and mythology; then reality can settle in and we can finally move on.
AreUNorml (anonymous) says…
I really wish this forum had a "LIKE" button. Well said Paul.
Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…
Thanks, AUN. We are a strange species, we third chimps. Nasty, spiritual and creative; sadly much of the creativity goes towards means to destroy. I hope truly intelligent life doesn't find us; we will probably be bulldozed for an intergalactic highway as Douglas Adams once wrote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_...
Cheers, PRG
igby (anonymous) says…
My dear Paul, and Normi, I don't think you realize the magnitude and scope of what these scientist are doing to the earth and solar system. Just look at the space junk in orbit, is this not prof that man and science has a sloppy history of their work in science. Just like this space junk that will someday wreck many of their most valued satellites. These scientist at CERN will and have already breach the unreal and the real has already changed. You wouldn't know this of course unless you were keen on the study of forces of nature.
Too add insult to injury, these scientist don't even know the damage that they have already caused to earth and the solar system. There small black hole argument is just a smoke screen and a mute point to the public that really doesn't understand it. CERN, is firing a wave of high speed light in orbit around the globe, but the beam is not in orbit, it's on the ground and it goes right through everything, earth, water, building, people ect. .
I've studied this and every since they started up in December 2009, there has been changes and fluxes in the speed of light waves from the planets and moon. I factored out the unchanged and found the changed.
The wave speed is sandwiched somewhat between the speed of light of the Sun, reflected off the major planets and then when that light hits earth, their hiding this beam between this planetary light wave speed and the constant light speed of the Moon; in a sandwich. Each planetary hour, of the Chaldean system and on the hour CERN is firing this light beam so as to hid their activities around the globe. The hour of Saturn, Mars, Jupiter is the most noticed. It's harder to detect Venus and Mercury because their faster and between the Earth and Sun. They can move small amounts of mass in this beam or wave of light and then re-collect the mass on another pass around the globe.
The centri-force of the un-real wave is no doubt affecting the balance of earth, the forces of nature and in the astrological realms. Even, weather and possibly earthquakes, volcanoes and ocean currents.
In theory, they can deliver and retrieve mass, anywhere around the globe in the same concept as the "bird and frog"in the dark arts.
BorderRuffian (anonymous) says…
SnakeFist (anonymous) wrote…
"You're looking to the Bible for moral teaching? Consider this:
1. God demanded and sanctioned human sacrifices (Leviticus, Judges, and Samuel);
2. God killed the first-born child of every Egyptian family (Exodus);
3. God sanctioned slavery (Exodus, Leviticus).
4. God sanctioned the selling of one’s daughter (Exodus);
5. God commanded death for heresy, for violating the Sabbath, for cursing one’s parents, for adultery, and unchastity (in women only) at the time of marriage (Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy).
I guess that makes all of these actions morally permissible too, huh?"
Hmmm, God commanded, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."(Leviticus 19:18 NIV)
Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"(Matthew 5:43-44 NIV)
Again, Jesus said "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'""(Luke 10:27 NIV)
Jesus said once more (on the night He was betrayed and arrested), ""A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (35) By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.""(John 13:34-35 NIV)
The big problem is, so many only call themselves Christians, but fail to act as Jesus taught. REAL Christians begin FIRST with the thoughts above, then live their lives accordingly. Most "Christians" who do the reprehensible things so often associated with the false stereotypes of Christians, are NOT in fact, real Christians.