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Opinion

Opinion

Mosque an issue of decency, not rights

August 20, 2010

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— It’s hard to be an Obama sycophant these days. Your hero delivers a Ramadan speech roundly supporting the building of a mosque and Islamic center at Ground Zero in New York. Your heart swells and you’re moved to declare this President Obama’s finest hour, his act of greatest courage.

Alas, the next day, at a remove of 800 miles, Obama explains that he was only talking about the legality of the thing and not the wisdom — upon which he does not make, and will not make, any judgment.

You’re left looking like a fool because now Obama has said exactly nothing: No one disputes the right to build; the whole debate is about the propriety, the decency of doing so.

It takes no courage whatsoever to bask in the applause of a Muslim audience as you promise to stand stoutly for their right to build a mosque, giving the unmistakable impression that you endorse the idea. What takes courage is to then respectfully ask that audience to reflect upon the wisdom of the project, and to consider whether the imam’s alleged goal of interfaith understanding might not be better achieved by accepting the New York governor’s offer to help find another site.

Where the president flagged, however, the liberal intelligentsia stepped in with gusto, penning dozens of pro-mosque articles characterized by a frenzied unanimity, little resort to argument and a singular difficulty dealing with analogies.

The Atlantic’s Michael Kinsley was typical in arguing that the only possible grounds for opposing the Ground Zero mosque are bigotry or demagoguery. Well then, what about Pope John Paul II’s ordering the closing of the Carmelite convent at Auschwitz? Surely there can be no one more innocent of that crime than those devout nuns.

How does Kinsley explain this remarkable demonstration of sensitivity, this order to pray — but not there? He doesn’t even feign analysis. He simply asserts that the decision is something “I confess that I never did understand.”

That’s his Q.E.D.? Is he stumped or is he inviting us to choose between his moral authority and that of one of the towering moral figures of the 20th century?

At least Richard Cohen of The Washington Post tries to grapple with the issue of sanctity and sensitivity. The results, however, are not pretty. He concedes that putting up a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor would be offensive, but then dismisses the analogy to Ground Zero because 9/11 was merely “a rogue act, committed by 20 or so crazed samurai.”

Obtuseness of this magnitude can only be deliberate. These weren’t crazies. They were methodical, focused, steel-nerved operatives.

Nor were they freelance rogues. They were the leading, and most successful, edge of a worldwide movement of radical Islamists with cells in every continent, with worldwide financial and theological support, with a massive media and propaganda arm, and with an archipelago of local sympathizers, as in northwestern Pakistan, who protect and guard them.

Why is America fighting Predator wars in Pakistan and Yemen, surveilling thousands of conversations and financial transactions every day, and engaged in military operations against radical Muslims everywhere from the Philippines to Somalia — because of 19 crazies, all of whom died nine years ago?

Radical Islam is not, by any means, a majority of Islam. But with its financiers, clerics, propagandists, trainers, leaders, operatives and sympathizers — according to a conservative estimate, it commands the allegiance of 7 percent of Muslims, i.e., over 80 million souls — it is a very powerful strain within Islam. It has changed the course of nations and affected the lives of millions. It is the reason every airport in the West is an armed camp and every land is on constant alert.

Ground Zero is the site of the most lethal attack of that worldwide movement, which consists entirely of Muslims, acts in the name of Islam and is deeply embedded within the Islamic world. These are regrettable facts, but facts they are. And that is why putting up a monument to Islam in this place is not just insensitive but provocative.

Just as the people of Japan today would not think of planting their flag at Pearl Harbor, despite the fact that no Japanese under the age of 85 has any possible responsibility for that infamy, representatives of contemporary Islam — the overwhelming majority of whose adherents are equally innocent of the infamy committed on 9/11 in their name — should exercise comparable respect for what even Obama calls hallowed ground.

— Charles Krauthammer is a columnist for Washington Post Writers Group. letters@charleskrauthammer.com

Comments

Abdu Omar 4 years, 4 months ago

Here is another article based upon lies and misconceptions and I am tired of it. Even though this building is close to ground zero but won't be visible from ground zero and a hallowed place. There are bars, a nail solons, a "gentlemans' club, several restaurants and prostitutes walking the street right at Ground Zero. Doesn't a place of worship or a place of interfaith dialogue seem better than those things? What really is happening here is an attempt to slam Islam and to make you readers think the Muslims want a victory statue. Muslims grieve the deaths of the people in the towers just as much as anyone else because they, too, lost fellow muslims there. The terrorists who did this heinous crime stole Islam away from decent men and women who are patriotic and support the USA 100%.

May I remind you that Charles Krauthammer is Jewish and his attempt is to move the reader to reject anything Islamic because he thinks that doing this supports the Israeli cause. All it does is hurt the 10 million or so American Muslims who had nothing to do with these crimes.

independant1 4 years, 4 months ago

Puleeze! anti semite rant alert!

10 mil. or so? Up from about 3mil. best guess for 2001 incl. women and children by those that try to collect that sort of data.

Charles K. is a distinguished intellectual, always a good read even if you do not agree.

The ground zero Imam spokesman pushes Charles Krauthammer left, if Charles was standing next to him, to bleeding heart liberal status.

Where oh where are the moderate muslims who openly eschew muslim terrorism and Hamas platform of 'kill all jews'? The sound of one hand clapping comes to mind. But that is just an opinion, prove me wrong?

The mosque placement is wrong place wrong time, that's what I see above.

Another good read and timely topic.

Abdu Omar 4 years, 4 months ago

Let it be clearly known that I am not anti-semite. I do not hate Jews and would never kill anyone, period. I am anti anyone who spreads lies and distortions intentionally and what "intellectual" man would do that? There was an article on Yahoo yesterday that claimed that even the facts don't stop people from exaggeration of this situation. This is prejudice clear and simple.

Muslims were horrified on 9/11 because they certainly did not want their religion hijacked along with the other events. The people who did this do not represent true Islam and have taken the truth of it from Muslims.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

It's not a mosque. Get your facts straight.

geekyhost 4 years, 4 months ago

There's ALREADY a mosque four blocks from ground zero. The mosque predates the trade center, and obviously there are enough Muslims there to frequent it.

Grundoon Luna 4 years, 4 months ago

There already is a Mosque there! It been there since before WTC! Get over yourself and with the Constitution!

Abdu Omar 4 years, 4 months ago

CHI, it is not ON ground zero and there are thousands of Muslims there. Lots of Muslims work on Wall Street and the surrounding area.

50YearResident 4 years, 4 months ago

Wounded_soldier appears from his posts to be a Muslim that does not acknowledge the fact that he is. Correct me wounded_soildier if I am wrong. What war were you wounded in, or is that a screen name you picked that does not refer to any involvement in any war? If you are not Muslim, what is your faith , if any? Why do the Muslims not acknowdlege themselves? I think it from fear of their own religion which might think they are not faithful to Islam and Mohamad.

Abdu Omar 4 years, 4 months ago

Do I have to publish a manifesto or answer to you? Do you want my life's story? I don't tell it to friends let alone publically and yes, I was in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive. A lot of us got wounded or didn't see home again, may they rest in peace.

scott3460 4 years, 4 months ago

Neither, of course, are these American private property owners.

Orwell 4 years, 4 months ago

Neither are the Muslims who wish to practice their faith under the Constitution you would so easily tear up. Unless, of course, the reference to a "group" is just a cover for your own bigotry. Would it be all right for females to worship there, because all the 9/11 terrorists were males? Do you, yourself fall into the latter group? If you're not willing to make rational distinctions between psychopaths and people who share the faith they purport to espouse, you must agree all Christians share liability for Timothy McVeigh's mass murder.

independant1 4 years, 4 months ago

I was raised predominantly a Methodist but I have traveled so much, mixed with so many people in all parts of the world, I don’t know just now what I am. I know I have never been a non believer. But I can honestly tell you that I don’t think that any one religion is the religion. (Will Rogers)

independant1 4 years, 4 months ago

You nailed it! Throw 'em a bone comes to mind in a really sick sort of way.

independant1 4 years, 4 months ago

What an outrage that our government has put roadblocks in the path of its own citizens trying rebuild their beloved Church destroyed by Islamic extremists, St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church dedicated in 1922, while Saudi Arabia, a nation that prohibits people from even wearing a Cross or the Star of David, is funneling money to build a mosque near the same location.

Build 'em, both of them, I need not agree with the author above. After all it's a free country. St. Nick has been negotiating with the Port Authority, NY for 9 years to rebuild their church to no avail.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

Hey Mom! Shewmon has another comic strip up!

jaywalker 4 years, 4 months ago

"May I remind you that Charles Krauthammer is Jewish and his attempt is to move the reader to reject anything Islamic because he thinks that doing this supports the Israeli cause."

Agree with the majority of what you said, wounded, but you jumped the shark with the above. And after your anti-Israel remarks yesterday, the above speaks more to the ax you're grinding than Krauthammer's.

Abdu Omar 4 years, 4 months ago

"He thinks that duing this supports the Israelis cause:. Was my statement. Perhaps I mean that it hurts the Israeli cause not helps it. I am not anti-Israel or semite. I may be one. But I require that people use facts to support their causes and they cannot support them by trashing someone else. That is my point.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

We get it, Charles. You're a crusader, and demagoguery against Islam gets eyeballs, which pays your bills.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

boohoohoohoozo accusing someone of demagoguery - that's rich.

cowboy 4 years, 4 months ago

Using Craphammers logic there should be no churches in NYC as all of them over time have perpetrated some evil upon society.

grammaddy 4 years, 4 months ago

Who are you to decide how many temples of worship are to be allotted to whichever religion?Obama had nothing to do with bringing this situation to a boil, although I'm sure in your mind, he's the one responsible for all the evil in the world.It's NOT at Ground Zero.It's not even visible from there. And what about the mosque already directly across the street from Ground Zero? Should it be torn down also? Oh ye of small minds.

Abdu Omar 4 years, 4 months ago

Tom, you, like Charles above, distort the truth very easily. The terrorists are not building this edifice, Muslims are. Try to imagine a Muslim who isn't bend on destroying the best country in the world. One who fights for her every day and wants peace between all people. That is a Muslim.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

And this has what to do with this article?

Kendall Simmons 4 years, 4 months ago

OHMIGAWD!!!

We have a President who doesnt know EVERYTHING!! A President who was given misinformation by his advisors and...gasp...TRUSTED THEM!!

Such INCOMPETENCE!!! It's utterly unforgiveable. I mean, if you're going to trust your advisors about things they've gotten wrong, shouldn't it be about IMPORTANT things? Like, say, WMD in Iraq???

scott3460 4 years, 4 months ago

You bring up a very good point which seems to have gotten too little attention.....there are MUSLIMS living, eating, breathing, procreating, and praying in this neighborhood. Oh, MY God!!!

Why has the American Taliban not taken note and begun efforts to set up internment camps?

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

It's not a mosque. And President Obama didn't call it one. I understand your brain is permanently fried from the Kool Aid Tom. I will be repeating this information many times in the future. One hopes that some day you'll get it.

Orwell 4 years, 4 months ago

The Moonie Times isn't exactly a credible source.

Joe Ryan 4 years, 4 months ago

While there is a legal right to build the mosque there is a moral question about the sensitivity. I am not convinced of this notion of a small minority of Muslims being extremists. If this is the case where are the 1.4 Billion "good guys"? Where are the "good guys" in Somalia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere around the globe where extremists are killing in the name of Islam. If extremism is limited to 7% then the other 93% need to clean up their own house.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

So how is this bigoted circus atmosphere helping? How does it help to give the moderate 92% of Muslims the message that in the Land of the Free, there is freedom of religion-- unless you are a Muslim, in which case you'll be denigrated as a terrorist for merely trying to build a mosque?

jaywalker 4 years, 4 months ago

Doesn't happen often, but I agree with bozo here.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Why, you're right, Herr Klowne. It certainly is a good thing nobody stereotypes Christians in this nation, and holds the entire religion responsible for the actions of a few.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

The imam who is involved with this project has denounced terrorism and violence, is a moderate Sufi, a mystical branch of Islam which is peaceful, was a consultant to President Bush, and is building a community center which will be open to people of all faiths.

Do you require that moderate Christians "clean up" Christianity by somehow eliminating radical right-wing Christians?

aa469285 4 years, 4 months ago

The community center or health club, whatever it's currently being called will not be open to all faiths. How many Jews will be allowed to enter and use the facilities? My estimate: zero. The same number of Jews that are currently allowed at Feisal Abdul Rauf's current mosque 11 blocks away.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

From what I've read, it will in fact be open to people of all faiths.

Abdu Omar 4 years, 4 months ago

They are trying but idiots like Shemon keep them focased on events here in FREE America. Everytime a terrorist wants to recruit a young man to their cause, they point to the things America has done to "Islam".You and I know that America has done nothing to Islam, but they are just like the sheep on this forum that don't think for themselves and follow whatever they hear. If this Muslim Community Center is NOT build, it too, will be a recruiting tool. People, don't you see the real challenge here? MOST Muslims don't want to fight in America for their rights. But this echoes around the world. Muslims died on 9/11 at the hands of these butchers and they don't want more support for the terrorists.

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 4 months ago

"If this is the case where are the 1.4 Billion "good guys"?

Indonesia. Iraq. Iran. Syria. Turkey. Bulgaria. United States. You never hear about them because they are decent people not making "news". I am going to assume, Joe, that you have never comitted murder. You know why? Because I've never heard of you. You must be alright. I could probably have a beer with you.....unless you were Muslim because they don't drink.
These type of comments would be akin to an outsider saying that all Christians must be like Fred Phelps or be funding him. Ludicrous.

pizzapete 4 years, 4 months ago

I agree religious freedom shouldn't be a right in this country. If everyone would just accept Jesus as their personal savior we wouldn't be having all these problems.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Not sure because I don't know the poster well, but methinks I detected just a tinge of sarcasm there.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

Heehee Pizzapete you deserve a pizza. :) It's really hard to get Sean Hannity right but you nailed it.

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 4 months ago

The proposed islamic center is two blocks from ground zero. How far away from ground zero must it be to be considered "decent" (i.e. to not offend politically-correct right wingers)?

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

Ahh so Mr. Krankhammer weighs in. Dear Charlie, let's get this straight. It's not a mosque. I will be repeating that throughout this post so that people get it straight (I know you won't.) It is not a mosque. The real mosque is 2 blocks away right across the street from Ground Zero and has been there since 1994. It is not a mosque. It's a cooking school, community center, basketball court. And oh yeah, the top floor is a Christian Science...oops excuse me, Islamic, reading room. How this resembles a place of worship is beyond me. It is not a mosque. There are no spires or domes or minarets and the adan will nor be called by the muzzerain five times a day, canned or otherwise. It is not a mosque. It is not a mosque. It is not a mosque. OK. Now that we have that settled, tell me again, what's the problem?

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

If a Christian church is built that also incorporates into the building some meeting rooms, a food pantry, thrift store, etc., and they call it a community center, is it okay to still call it a "church"?

Especially if some controversy arose that generated a lot of press, and every newspaper headline referring to the structure calls it a church?

aa469285 4 years, 4 months ago

Ahem. From www.cordobainitiative.org
"It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space (mosque) in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood."

Is it a mosque.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

It would be a community center, with a designated prayer space.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

I know what it would be, but how many people would look at it say "church"? Also, I was pointing out that the headlines related to this issue almost always refer to it as a mosque.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

Well, part of the problem is the misunderstanding of what the building will be.

cato_the_elder 4 years, 4 months ago

It was reported this morning that the backers of this project intend to break ground on September 11.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

They have no right to honor the dead themselves Cato? Do you have any idea how many Muslims died in 9/11? Guess not.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Well, I can think of 19, off the top of my head.

cato_the_elder 4 years, 4 months ago

Cut the BS. Given your level of gullibility, I'm glad that you don't work for the State Department.

jimmyjms 4 years, 4 months ago

"Obama is the one who brought the situation to a rolling boil---not "the opposition"."

No, Tom, I believe that would be Pam Geller, conspiracy theorist and rightwing idjit. She's been pushing the notion that Malcolm X is Obama's father. Add to the mix such an amazing groups of intellectuals like Sarah Palin, Newt "It doesn't matter what I do, it only matters what I say" Gingrich, Sean Hannity, and you.

There is no (current) argument against building this mosque that isn't fundamentally in opposition to the laws, spirit, and meaning of America. The whole lot of bigots, opportunists, and political operators need to shut the hell up.

MyName 4 years, 4 months ago

Yet another worthless piece of partisan hackery where Kruth loses his marbles over the outrage of the month. What I don't get is how anyone who believes in Freedom of religion for everyone in America is now a "sycophant". Can someone explain this train of thought, or do you have to be brain damaged to understand it?

Jimo 4 years, 4 months ago

"Just as the people of Japan today would not think of planting their flag at Pearl Harbor"

Or Lutherns who would build a church in Israel or Catholics who would build a church next to a playground? It's not about rights but about decency, is that your claim Charles?

"to bask in the applause of a Muslim audience"

The only audience whose applause I seek to bask in is that of the Founding Fathers. What about you Charles?

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Jimo (anonymous) says…

"or Catholics who would build a church next to a playground?"

And jimmie-boy chimes in with a perfect example of the left's religious tolerance - I mean, he would never stereotype an entire religion based on the bad acts of a few members.

There is one slight problem with your analogy, jimmie: The Catholic priests I assume you're referring to didn't claim to be molesting children in the name of their God.

Jimo 4 years, 4 months ago

"The Catholic priests I assume you're referring to didn't claim to be molesting children in the name of their God."

What do the bishops and the Pope claim to be doing when they cover up molestation other than protecting God's own Church?

"he would never stereotype an entire religion based on the bad acts of a few members"

Hey, just speaking to you in a mode of analysis I know you'll understand!! (And again, the bad acts of few members INSTITUTIONALLY minimized and covered up.)

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

"What do the bishops and the Pope claim to be doing when they cover up molestation other than protecting God's own Church?"

Uh, right, jimmie - they sit around and say "For the glory of God we should have sex with children, and encourage our priests to do so."

Are you going to be really hypocritical, and claim there were no Muslim clerics openly praising the 'martyrs' who committed the 9/11 acts? It might seem to someone that had the cognitive capacity of a goldfish that openly praising a heinous act is just a tad different than covering one up.

But in any case, thank you, jimmie, for at least being more honest than most of the liberals around here. At least you confirmed your blatant bigotry against Catholics. So the equal rights and equal protections you're clamoring for from your high horse only extend to those groups YOU deem worthy, right?

Buffoon.

Jimo 4 years, 4 months ago

No, again, just explaining things in the mode that you've demonstrated you understand. I'm sorry if you find that the analogy reveals the gross inadequacy of your approach to this subject. (Shhh...you don't even have to admit publicly that you are wrong. Just halt your emotionalism and re-think your bigotry.)

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Spin it any way you want, bigot. And the worst kind, spewing your own bigotry while accusing others.

And BTW, jimmie-boy, nobody "understands" your comparison of the 9/11 attackers to some priests that molested children (because, after all, it's only Catholic priests, right, jimmie? No other religion has ever had a member that molested a child). Nobody, that is, except your fellow bigots and hypocrites.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Don't listen to Rush, jimmie, I have a job. You seem pretty familiar with what he says, though.

MyName 4 years, 4 months ago

WTF does that even mean? Are you trying to claim that just because people don't wear their religion out in the streets like some Fox News Pharisee, they somehow don't care about religion or about the freedom of religion? I mean seriously, now you're trying to tell people that the GOP crowd (aka the "Real Americans") have some kind of "in" with god that the rest of the world doesn't. Last I heard, Christianity had a few centuries on the Jerry Falwell crowd, and Judaism predates that by at least double that.

So in three words: get over yourself.

MyName 4 years, 4 months ago

I know exactly WTF he means, he means people who are "lefties" don't care about religion, which is BS. What doesn't seem to enter into people's brains is that maybe they don't talk about religion in the context of politics because they don't believe Jesus picks sides in elections, unlike the Fox News Pharisees apparently does.

Either way, he's trying to make it out like their being hypocritical to talk about it now, when the way I see it, they don't bother to talk about it most of the time, and are only talking about religious freedom now because it actually matters. Unless there's a completely different take on it where he's just brain damaged and doesn't even understand why trying to hijack the government into telling people where they can and can't build a church based on their religion is crossing the line.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Come on, Tom, don't be so harsh. Our liberal brethren have always supported freedom of religion, for everyone.

Except Christians, of course.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

As much as I despise the bovine, in this case, she happens to be right.

I mean correct - she'll never be "right". ;)

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 4 months ago

Just love the way you deliberately piss people off just so you can say "calm down" and look like the big rational even tempered person you aren't. Does it make your ego feel good Tom? Good, cause none of the rest of us care

Jimo 4 years, 4 months ago

I suppose that's better than a fake concern about religion. Judgment Day is coming wingnuts! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.

whats_going_on 4 years, 4 months ago

just because people aren't religious, doesn't mean they don't respect others who are.

I just don't respect, in ANY religion, trying to push it on others, molesting people and covering it up, killing in the name of it, etc etc. Mind your own business, pray, do whatever helps you sleep at night, as long as you're peaceful about it. Thats fine by me, you're all FREE to do that.

The people wanting to build the mosque/community center aren't building it to spite anyone or make fun of America, they're doing it because it's a good piece of real estate, there is a large population that would go there, etc etc. It's like saying Muslim people shouldn't live anywhere close to ground zero because its hallowed or some garbage.

Ricky_Vaughn 4 years, 4 months ago

"I guess the lesson learned here is that it doesn't matter where everyone is from as long as we're all the same religion."

-- Peter Griffin

supertrampofkansas 4 years, 4 months ago

From the article "Just as the people of Japan today would not think of planting their flag at Pearl Harbor, despite the fact that no Japanese under the age of 85 has any possible responsibility for that infamy, representatives of contemporary Islam — the overwhelming majority of whose adherents are equally innocent of the infamy committed on 9/11 in their name — should exercise comparable respect for what even Obama calls hallowed ground"

I guess Charles would say the same for Native Americans right?

ivalueamerica 4 years, 4 months ago

It seems the decent thing to not discriminate.

It seems the decent thing is not to punish law abiding peaceful American Muslims over something done by illegal terrorists from another country just because they share the same name of religion.

It seems the decent thing not to use bigotry to diminish personal Property rights in America.

It seems the decent thing to put the blame of 9-11 on Al-Quada and not some New York Mosque.

It seems the decent thing is to let reason prevail over emotion on this matter.

But with the likes of Tom Shewmon taking the lead in stirring up bigotry, reason has left the building and bigoted zealotry is ruling the day.

ivalueamerica 4 years, 4 months ago

It seems the decent thing to not discriminate.

It seems the decent thing is not to punish law abiding peaceful American Muslims over something done by illegal terrorists from another country just because they share the same name of religion.

It seems the decent thing not to use bigotry to diminish personal Property rights in America.

It seems the decent thing to put the blame of 9-11 on Al-Quada and not some New York Mosque.

It seems the decent thing is to let reason prevail over emotion on this matter.

But with the likes of Tom Shewmon taking the lead in stirring up bigotry, reason has left the building and bigoted zealotry is ruling the day.

notajayhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

It seems the decent thing is to repeat yourself.

:)

What is up with the award-winning LJW's message boards today, anyway?

jaywalker 4 years, 4 months ago

"illegal terrorists"

You insinuating they didn't pay for their jihad licenses?

lawrencenerd 4 years, 4 months ago

First of all, it isn't a mosque, it is a community center. You don't call a hospital a church just because it has a chapel in it.

Second, it is not at ground zero. It is a few blocks away.

Get over it, we have freedom of religion in the USA. You can't take rights away from law abiding citizens just because you don't agree with their religion. To even suggest such a thing is incredibly unpatriotic. My family and friends have fought for these rights, and to suggest they be taken away from certain groups is not only bigotry, but it spits in the face of the men and women of the armed forces that fought and risked their lives to protect those rights.

cato_the_elder 4 years, 4 months ago

I can't believe the number of gullible posters on this forum who apparently believe the kumbaya BS rolled out by the backers of this project. P.T. Barnum would have loved every one of you.

whats_going_on 4 years, 4 months ago

What about the thousands of african americans in Mississippi that live with the stars and bars on their state flag. It would appear we have two standards in America. hmm.

....interesting point...

Jay Keffer 4 years, 4 months ago

Sure they have a right to build at that location (600 feet from Gound Zero) - they own the land, zoning is proper, etc. But what about not exercising that right? Have they considered that option? What about being gracious, thoughtful, respectful, considerate, decent or (insert your own concept). Just because they have the right to build doesn't mean it is 'right'. Take Fred Phelps for example - he has the right to do protest in a vile way, but is it the noble, moral thing to do?

The Islamic world can view the building of this center in one of three ways:

1) Don't give a hoot 2) Be impressed that America is so free and they can benefit from that freedom 3) Be impressed that Islam is making such strides in the world and expanding in the 'Great Satan' that is United States.

It will be the third option that most will view these events by, in my opinion. They are making a statement and it is very clear what it means, given the opposition they are more than aware of. Also, where is the funding coming from?

~70% of the US does not want it built at that location. A number of Muslim leaders in the US are also expressing doubts. Given the recent backpedaling by the vaunted Obama, and the comments by Reid, many of the earlier pro-build comments are looking rather anemic about now. Even you Libs don't want it there - listen to your guys.

Listen the people of the US, you Islam folks, and build in another location. That is also your right.

beatrice 4 years, 4 months ago

Interesting that you use Phelps as an example. I'm curious, when Phelps does something outrageous (meaning, everything he does), do Christians feel any guilt or shame for his actions? Do they feel responsible?

If the answer is no, then why should Islamics feel guilt or shame about what fanatics did in their name?

As far as your three ideas are concerned, I don't see how you could possibly feel you have enough knowledge about Muslims of the world to answer the way you do. You are talking about your views of them more than anything else.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 4 months ago

And you both clearly missed the point.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 4 months ago

How do you feel about Glenn Beck holding a rally at the site of the famous MLK speech on that anniversary? Good idea? Bad idea? Why?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

That's like knowingly and falsely accusing your neighbor of being a pedophile and demanding that they move away so as not to endanger your kids.

Fact is, it's all you religious bigots that are in the wrong, and using that bigotry as basis for making unreasonable demands is neither fair nor moral.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 4 months ago

Bad analogy, not even close. No one, including me, and saying they can't build there. They will, of couse. But your own liberal friends don't like it either. Why not?

cato_the_elder 4 years, 4 months ago

If the backers of this project had any common sense, they would (1) take it to the brink, (2) suddenly announce that they're scrapping it or moving it to the Upper East Side, and (3) give Obama all the credit for "reaching out" to them and defusing the situation. Opinions of and about Muslims everywhere would get a shot in the arm, and one of their most valued compadres would get a boost in his tanking poll numbers.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

So, you're the jerk, but they should back down just to show how magnanimous they can be?

cato_the_elder 4 years, 4 months ago

No, Bozo, they're the jerks. I cannot recall anything as obscenely inappropriate and grossly insensitive as this in my lifetime.

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 4 months ago

Why do you think that "they" are interested in giving Obama political help? Oh, I see, Obama and the muslims are in a big conspiracy together....

Wheeeeewwwwwwwwww!

Fill 4 years, 4 months ago

Why is the whole dang country supposed to be sensitive to it being built ~ And Yet "THEY" can NOT be sensitive enough to build it somewhere else?? Why is it always the majority that must change??

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

Perhaps because you want to project a false narrative about who "they" are onto them, and then expect them to behave as if that narrative were true.

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 4 months ago

"Why is it always the majority that must change??"

Because the majority of people (especially in this country) are morons. "You ever noticed how many really stupid people are walkin' around? Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize, half of them or more stupid than that." -George Carlin

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 4 months ago

I ask again: if two blocks is too close, how far away must the islamic center/mosque be so that politically correct right wingers will not be offended?

How far?

mr_right_wing 4 years, 4 months ago

In a muslim nation.

I knew you were just waiting for someone to say that, so I'd figure I'd oblige!

Of course it is LEGAL for them to build it there; it's just a case of it being too "in your face infidels!!"

Uh..yeah...I think we got the hint on the original 9/11 guys...

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

That's those little voices in your head speaking again, not the people who want to build this community center.

mr_right_wing 4 years, 4 months ago

I got muslims in my head? I thought they were in their islamic paradise with 500,000 virgins? If I eat more pork products will it get rid of them? Pork Chops wrapped in bacon comin' up! Maybe eat that while watching Porky Pig cartoons??

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 4 months ago

I wasn't waiting for any particular answer. I just wanted to know.

Personally, I think that this reaction gives the terrorists and their religion way too much power and deference.

Let them build their little muslim church wherever they want. It matters not to the great nation of the USA.

That is not to say we should not be vigilant and wary, but protesting a muslim church near ground zero seems petty and gives them and their religion way too much power.

Armored_One 4 years, 4 months ago

I don't care what it is supposed to be when they get finished building it.

What I DO care about is that a goodly chunk of the "average American public" directly link all Muslims to 9-11. That's as much a fact as Rush Limbaugh is fat and Ann Coultier, or however you spell her name, looks like the cross bar on the pole vault.

All this is going to do is give Bubba Jo and Billy Jim Bob a decent enough target to firebomb, since they can't burn down the black churches any more.

Hell, that would be like a Klan wizard or dragon opening a "meeting place" in Compton. Like it wouldn't get leveled through just the gunfire it would sustain?

Use your damned brain, look at the reality of the situation and move it somewhere else. You want to do it properly, get half the funding from a major Christian or Catholic organization, buy the land mutually and build it together. Getting all your money from the same place that the 9-11 morons came from is just throwing a cup of kerosene on a forest fire.

I don't know how many of you have ever read Terry Goodkind's "Sword of Truth" series, but there is a phrase in it that really does fit this bill.

"People are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true."

yourworstnightmare 4 years, 4 months ago

"All this is going to do is give Bubba Jo and Billy Jim Bob a decent enough target to firebomb, since they can't burn down the black churches any more."

Ah, those were the days, eh armored_one?

Armored_One 4 years, 4 months ago

I was born in the era of disco, not the equal rights movement... Did you burn a couple of churches in your time, because I know I haven't.

And is this the best response you can muster? I mean, honestly...

beatrice 4 years, 4 months ago

If this was really about a desire to tick off Americans, they should build a Wal-Mart on the site, with a Mosque inside it. Neither the left nor the right would know whether to support or condemn it.

whats_going_on 4 years, 4 months ago

How much do you want to bet most New Yorkers are looking out at us all right now and shaking their heads in shame and disbelief at what a tissy this is growing in to when it has nothing to do with our states.

If they want to build it, let them build it. I bet all of you people think of 9/11 probably a few times a YEAR. Quit bringing up bad memories, let people live, and mind your own godda*n business. The people who died that day probably would want us all to move on with life, so hey...LETS.

bluedawg79 4 years, 4 months ago

If I'm not mistaken, were not millions of Native American's and other Indigenous people forced into slavery and/or slaughtered by god-fearing European settlers, who built churches over their homes and their graves, all in the name of conquest, greed, and the Christian God? Oh, but that was okay, huh? I'm so sick of the religious hypocrisy in our society.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 4 months ago

To be sure, they will build where they want, no one is denying them that right. So take a deep breath, y'all, it will happen. Perhaps you can turn your attention to the wisdom of Glenn Beck holding a rally at the site of the famous MLK speech on that anniversary? Problem? Or not?

You Libs seem to think this is all a rightwing issue - but you might want to look around at your buddies. Quite a few disagree with you:

New York Democrats are quickly declaring opposition to the GZ mosque. Rep. Michael Arcuri (D., N.Y.) said in a statement:

“The pain felt by many Americans from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks is still very real, and I can understand how the thought of building a mosque near Ground Zero could reopen those wounds. For the sake of the victims and their families, I think another location should be chosen.”

Arcuri saw the obvious — encouraging the choice of another location does not entail a violation of First Amendment rights or freedom of religion. This was the theme for a deluge of Democratic representatives from the Empire State.

Rep. Mike McMahon issued an eloquent statement. A highlight:

“This is not the first time that the construction of a house of worship at a sensitive site has been questioned and opposed… Muslim Americans deserve the right to practice their faith – as we all do. I believe a new location is the right compromise so that Muslim Americans can worship … while the families of 9/11 victims obtain the peace of mind they deserve.”

And Rep. Steve Israel:

“While they have a constitutional right to build the mosque, it would be better if they had demonstrated more sensitivity to the families of 9/11 victims. I urge them to do so before proceeding further.”

And Rep. Tim Bishop:

“Ground Zero is sacred ground and should unite us. If the group seeking to build the mosque is sincere in its efforts to bring people together, I would urge them to seek an alternative location which is less divisive. I dispute the wisdom of building at that location, not the constitutional right.”

That brings the tally of Democrats opposing the Ground Zero mosque to at least five congressmen (the New Yorkers plus Altmire), one Senate majority leader, and 54 percent of their own voters.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 4 months ago

Okay, you need clarificaion - you left-leaners that argue against that there any thing wrong, on any level with this plan. In other words, there is no cause for any kind of debate, since the idea is perfect, no questionable issues at all. That better?

Glad, though. that you were able to roll around the floor laughing your arse off - best check those meds, they are still causing seizures....and loss of arse.

Jay Keffer 4 years, 4 months ago

And, Agnostik, perfect execution of the 'ol ad hominem. The lazy man's way to feel better.

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