Advertisement

Archive for Thursday, June 11, 2009

Misleading the flock?

June 11, 2009

Advertisement

To the editor:

I agree with David Reynolds’ letter titled “Wrong change.” The progressive left continues to blame the previous administration. The left will not admit Barney Frank’s and Chris Dodd’s roles in the financial crises. The indisputable fact is the “Community Reinvestment Act” was largely responsible for this mess. When is the current administration going to take ownership of their destructive policies?

I am aware of the large number of progressive left who call Lawrence home. I have to ask you a serious question. Are you having second thoughts about Mr. Obama? He clearly is taking our country down the wrong path to statism, fascism. This is the United States of America, not Denmark or any other European country. Wake up, people, your individual liberty is at stake. I hope you realize this in the 2012 election.

The Obama during the campaign was much different than the progressive socialist man running (ruining) our country. Perhaps, if Americans knew his true beliefs and agenda he would not be residing in the Oval Office. One could make the comparison of Mr. Obama’s true self being all the way left even passing Ted Kennedy on the progressive ideology scale. (God help us all).

Obama is apologizing to the world for being an arrogant capitalist country. Analogy: Obama is a farmer leading his sheep (his supporters) to the IBP plant for processing. His hope is to process capitalism into a new socialist America. Are you a sheep?

Givens is from Lawrence

Comments

Brent Garner 4 years, 10 months ago

porch_person

It still amounts to government taking control, dictating to the people, and curtailing freedom and liberty. Thus the two are entirely too similar and compatible.

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Brent,

All governments control something in all nations that have a government. Just because fascism and socialism are in the group "governments" doesn't automatically make them similar. A Democracy is also a government. A Republic is a government. A Theocracy is a government. An Oligarchy is also a government. The difference is method and amount of control.

In fascism, a dictator has total control of everything. There is no vote. The only change is with revolution.

In socialism, there is an elected government of many people and essential services are run by the government but the people have a voice in who serves in the government and what policies are implemented.

See the difference?

In socialism, there is some private industry but utilities / health care / etc are run by the government because it is recognized that these are things that ALL citizens need (hence "essential services"). It is decided that no one should profit from an essential service.

"Means of production" doesn't mean EVERY industry in socialism, at least not in the current definition. Socialist countries don't give a rat's about clothing stores and Starbucks or tire stores. It's the services that everyone needs that socialist governments worry about.

0

Brent Garner 4 years, 10 months ago

Can one be both a fascist and a socialist? The following definitions are from the only Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

fas•cism
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

so•cial•ism
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Please note that under both systems government control is central and key. I think that one could easily fit inside the other. I present Hugo Chavez and Venezuala as an example.

0

lawrenceguy40 4 years, 10 months ago

Excellent LTE.

We are in for a rough ride.

Be careful with your vote next time (if we get a next time).

0

JHOK32 4 years, 10 months ago

I wouldn't read Ann Coulter if you paid me to.....I'd rather have a root canal thank you.

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

notajayhawk,

You should try to not be so contrary. I think you're arguing just to be arguing.

I stand by the polling report data, as most people on the Internet do. It's a nice site and it refuted your statement regarding Obama's policies (plural) nicely with more recent and greater longitudinal data.

I think it's funny that you made the claim that Ford had overtaken Toyota, was contradicted with June data from the Wall Street Journal and then, for added amusement, acknowledged that Toyota was still ahead of Ford.

"Ford passed Toyota for market share in April, although they haven't caught up in year-to-date yet." ---- notajayhawk

I guess, in your world, someone can simultaneously "have greater market share" and "have not caught up yet".

(laughter)

Not my fault you didn't read your citation (an email, for Christ's sake!!) and didn't research who wrote the email to see if he is recognized as an expert or if his opinion fits widely accepted definitions. That's just poor research on your part. That he's a retired cranky nutcase is without question.

Merriam-Webster is pretty well accepted in most polite groups (in my circles anyway) but I went to school and learned my letters.

(laughter)

0

notajayhawk 4 years, 10 months ago

pork_person says:

"Obama's policies are doing pretty well."

Really?

The polls you linked to, again, were pretty generic, asking just whether people approved of Obama's policies without specific mention of which ones or specific actions. Like this, for instance:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/auto_industry/just_21_favor_gm_bailout_plan_67_oppose

Only 21% of voters nationwide support a plan for the government to bail out General Motors as part of a structured bankruptcy plan to keep the troubled auto giant in business. [Rasmussen, 5/31/09]

"Ford is about 40,000 vehicles (7%) behind Toyota right now. You can do the math, can't you?"

Apparently you can't. My words were "just passed Toyota for the number two spot in market share." May sales were 155,620 units (16.8 market share) for Ford to 152,583 (16.5 share) for Toyota. I wouldn't question anyone else's math ability if you think 155,000 is less than 152,000, porchie. Ford passed Toyota for market share in April, although they haven't caught up in year-to-date yet.

But it was nice of you to post a link that proved my point - perhaps if you could actually read and understand the pretty charts and tables on the linked page.

In any event, the salient point was that the Japanese took started kicking butt in auto sales by giving people what they wanted to buy, as opposed to the American tradition of telling them what they should buy. When a car company, let alone a government-owned car company, tells you what kind of cars you should be buying, it's a recipe for disaster. And with Obama-motors leading the way, you can bet the Japanese will once more take over the market, since people will be flocking to foreign-maker sales lots instead of the disasters the government will soon be trying to force down our throats.

"Mr. Switalski has an undergraduate philosophy degree. Other than conservative nutcase web sites, I don't know where else he's published on political theory."

You're right, porchie - I should get my political expertise from a little boy living in mommy's basement posting to a small-town midwest newspaper's message boards. Or maybe the comedian he reveres as a political guru.

"The major difference between the two is the degree of control the population has over the decisions government makes."

Which is what I said, if it weren't for your lack of reading comprehension. I said there were also similarities, such as from your own definitions: "fascism ... exalts nation and often race above the individual," and "socialism ... a system of society or group living in which there is no private property." In both cases individual rights are seconded to the state.

Maybe if you actually tried thinking (if you had the equipment to do so, which your posts make it painfully evident you don't) you wouldn't rely on a dictionary. (BTW, porkie, who told you where to find the words in the dictionary?)

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

tangential-

You are a punster of the highest calibre!

Delicious!

0

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 4 years, 10 months ago

sandersen "... And I am not a 'sir'…"

( Misreading the frock )

0

spkup 4 years, 10 months ago

The commentary on the articles are better than the articles themselves. LJWorld should be offering some of you jobs :)

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

"...if ideas..." I meant "of ideas"... Sorry!

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

75x55-

From your 8:08 post... "When some do-gooder assumes the illogical notion that they trump liberty and freedom, then the inevitable result is tyranny."

Who is confused here? You brought up the topic, but can't remember it? Seems a bit irrational to pin confusion on me for addressing it. As to my prejudice against people of faith, I have dear friends of most every theological persuasion, and many of faith. Absolutely no one could state from my words that I believe every human should be restricted as to what they believe or practice, so long as it is not injurious to others. I am in no position to judge what you believe, and vice versa. My posts from our founding fathers yesterday were merely a reference to there not being one specific theological, ideological or religious foundation to the underpinnings of our nation. Now, as always, there are a great multitude if ideas and peoples whose ideas meld, sometimes in unison, more often not, into the functional chaos that is a democracy. As to my feelings of the importance of "doing unto others...", well, I just think it is a good policy to try and follow.

I also try to make it a point to remember what I post. It comes in handy when involved in a discussion.

0

JHOK32 4 years, 10 months ago

Corporate greed is what's destroying our economy. GM could have built better cars years ago but they wanted them to fall apart so we would have to buy new ones...greed! The big banks made terrible loans to people that never should have got them & nearly destroyed our economy.....greed! Bush's big oil buddies wanted Iraq for it's huge oil reserves.....greed! We are destroying ourselves!

0

Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

"his" policies? Don't you mean Bush's restylized policies?

0

RedwoodCoast 4 years, 10 months ago

Obama might be ruining your day, but I'm not swallowing the argument that he's ruining our country. It was already a mangled, sorry mess when he took over. Wouldn't it be horrible if he actually makes progress with his dastardly policies?

0

75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

Wow.

Sycho - your 9:53 has to be one of the most incredible displays silliness and ignorance I've seen lately.

Fascism and socialism are NOT opposite ends of the political spectrum - they are different degrees of on the statist end (usually referred to as the "left").

You then take your misunderstanding, apply it to your opponent, then pull a reductio ad Hitlerum - it's a classic ridiculous posting.

I call Godwin's on TheSychophant.

0

Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch_person (Anonymous) says…

"We've tried the “free market” in health care and it ain't working."

No, we haven't. Licensure, EMTALA, ERISA, Medicare, Medicaid, regulations upon regulations. We haven't had anything close to a free market approach in health care for 100 years. For example:

"Our elderly were driven into smuggling drugs"

In a free market there would be free trade and Canadian drug companies would be able to freely sell their product here.

"I don't believe Obama is against gay marriage."

Then you didn't watch the debates. Regardless, has he tried to overturn DOMA yet? Nope, so effectively the same as Bush.

"I believe that taxes are going to go up on people who can afford the taxes a lot better than I can"

Actually taxes are going up on the poorest the most since the inflation tax is the most regressive tax of all. The inflation tax is a hidden tax that most people don't even realize is caused by the government. I imagine this is the first you've ever heard of it.

President Clinton had balanced budgets since he cut spending and reduced the size of government in some areas. Obama is just a tool for special interests.

0

75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

I really have tried to understand what you're speaking of, sandersen - and after multiple passes on your 8:56am post, I can only come to the conclusion that there is some degree of irrationality going on there - or a whole lot of unmentioned prejudices are coloring your view. Example - what is the issue with 'do-gooder', when you are the one who brought this up (in a very confused manner at that)? I would suggest that your prejudices against religion and possibly 'persons of faith' are actually making a muddle of what you see as being "crystal clear".

0

Bob Forer 4 years, 10 months ago

So, Obama is both a facist and a socialist?. Sorry, Kyle, but facism and socialism are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Its what you might call a contradiction in terms.

You've revealed yourself as pretty darned ignorant. A word of caution. The last propagandist to engage in such unmitigated and unreconstituted intellectual dishonesty was Hitler's infamous sidekick, Joseph Gobbels, who claimed that the greedy money lending Jews (capitalists) and Bolshevik Jews (communists) had conspired to destroy Germany.

ONe cannot be both a capitalist and a communist. Understood? Your choice of bed fellows is--and I am being exceptionally polite--questionable.

Go back and reread your bible.
Proverbs 29:11

A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.

P.S. thanks for the entertainment

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

My point was crystal clear. No one is restricting you or your beliefs. Same should apply under "all men are created equal...". You have no requirement to be a "do-gooder", thus the tyranny you tout is null and void.

And I am not a "sir"...

0

75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

You're not making any point, sandersen, unless you mean to obscure any line between the government-political and the individual. I can personally believe and promote a particular viewpoint, yet understand and completely support that that view cannot (or should not) be enforced by the government.

Think "bite", not "byte".

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

75x55-

Under which ideology? And anyone is free to worship as they choose, or not at all, to believe as they see fit so long as it is not injurious to others. That is tolerance. Or is it that you feel others whom may not share your specific theology are restricting your ability to believe as you see fit? And, well, smoking is not listed in the the bill of rights...

Do you wish "liberty" only for your ideals/theology/political beliefs? You are free to hold whatever political beliefs you wish, as well as to discuss them freely. Freedom to have beliefs that are unique to each individual means others may have dissenting viewpoints. I got a chuckle from the ugly spin on "do-gooder".... I mean, WWJD? Wasn't he the ultimate "do-gooder"? By the way, there is absolutely no mandate you participate in progress. You have the freedom to sit back and watch, while those of us "do-gooders" who enjoy our personal liberties as well have the right to participate as we see fit.

A soundbyte is a canned phrase used repetitively that features an insulting turn of phrase against the opposing opinion. Has a rancorous tone and little substance... And I concur, it is an indicator of problem in the arena of discussions....

0

75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

"It is truly frightening when ideals of tolerance, diversity and progress can be poisoned with a smirk and soundbyte."

No, sir. What is 'truly frightening' is that some folks do not understand that those "ideals" can only truly exist under the framework of that single ideology. When some do-gooder assumes the illogical notion that they trump liberty and freedom, then the inevitable result is tyranny.

Tolerance? Really? Where is the tolerance for religion, differing political viewpoints, name the subject - smoking (to use the crusade-of-the-day...)? Diversity? What ideology fosters 'diversity' more effectively than "all men created equal"? Where is "progress" more effective then when liberty is the greatest virtue?

And what exactly is a "soundbyte"? Yet another indicator of the real underlying problem...

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

I don't think we are anywhere close to either fascism or socialism. The major difference between the two is the degree of control the population has over the decisions government makes. In fascism, the population has no control outside of revolution and overthrow. In socialism, there are elections and referendums, sometimes so frequent as to bog things down but at least the people have a vote.

I don't see Obama or Bush "telling me how to live my life". I did not like Bush interfering with basic research (embryonic stem cell research) or trying to wipe out the Fourth Amendment or lying about invading Iraq. I especially didn't like his Administration revealing the name of one of our own to the world, that was uncool, not to mention treasonous. I see Obama using government to rectify some of the screwups of the previous administration.

Health care is a huge problem. People don't have insurance. That's a problem. Obama isn't expanding government just to be expanding government. We've tried the "free market" in health care and it ain't working. It's too expensive and we're not producing a better product. Outcomes everywhere else in the industrial world are better, no question. During the Bush Administration, elderly were having to go on the Internet to get prescriptions from Canada. Our elderly were driven into smuggling drugs because of the current state of our health care system.

I don't believe Obama is against gay marriage. The state of gay marriage is better than it has ever been DURING his administration. You can get married in Iowa if you're gay, for Christ's sake!

I'm glad we've escalated in Afghanistan. We should have done that six, seven years ago. That's where Bin Laden is. We should get that MF. As our former Vice-President has recently admitted, Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11.

Obama is having to pay for Bush's policies. Bush drove us into the ground. Taxes are going to go up. I believe that taxes are going to go up on people who can afford the taxes a lot better than I can, something I think is fueling a lot of the PR campaign against Obama. I think we can recover. Bush I and Clinton got us recovered from Reagan's Administration. I have every confidence that Obama can do the same.

0

TopJayhawk 4 years, 10 months ago

Time will tell. But it ain't looking good so far. I just wish that he would/could restore peoples interest in Wall street. Ignoring the traditional rules such as preffered stockholders get paid first and in full is out the window. Who in their right mind would invest now? Not me.

0

Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch, take it easy there! Of course socialism and facism aren't the same. I was talking solely about their economic aspects. The economy doesn't care if the government is a fascist dictatorship or a socialist democracy. Government intervention causes the same reactions in the economy regardless of the form of government.

As far as Obama and Bush being statists, I'll try to better explain by saying what the opposite of a statist is: a libertarian. Perhaps to you there is a big difference between Obama and Bush, but to me there isn't. To me they both stand for increased government power, whether it be by manipulating the economy, telling people how to live their lives and raise their children, or by taking over other countries to expand the empire or taking over companies. To me the difference is mostly stylistic. Obama wants to expand government health care? Didn't Bush do that already with his prescription drug plan? Obama's bailing out banks and saving companies from failure, didn't Bush do that just last fall? Isn't Obama against gay marriage? Didn't he increase the level of fighting in the war in Afghanistan? He's running up record deficits--didn't Bush do just that the past 8 years? It's the same guy, just different packaging. Of course that's just my opinion...

0

igby 4 years, 10 months ago

General Motors has built junk for 25 years.

Fascism is a European sickness that appears when spineless men let bastards run the country because of fear. Their all a bunch of chickin st. Liberals are fascism prone because they're naturally born chick'n sts. They try to be ever thing to every one and no good for anyone. American's could never be happy with Fascism, they will kill you first.

Socialism is dead. European countries are in financial trouble because they bet all the chips on American trade and demand for goods from rich Americans. Now since America is a broke country; soon we will see Europe start too crumble and eating it's self from within because there is little cash flow supporting the social demand for their large spending promises on social networks. Europeans will get real unhappy and well, as they have done in the past so shall they likely do in the future; start killing each other.

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

notajayhawk,

I apologize. Bernard Switalski is a retired nutcase blast furnace foreman / general construction superintendent from Chicago, not an MU student.

You received his words of wisdom off of an archive from a University of Missouri email server in the math department. Gee, it must have been so good that they didn't bother to reformat it outside of the email archive where it resides.

Mr. Switalski has an undergraduate philosophy degree. Other than conservative nutcase web sites, I don't know where else he's published on political theory.

(laughter)

FASCISM

1: often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality

---http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

================

SOCIALISM

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

---http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

================

Obama (and previously the Roosevelt Administration)

Stepping in to prevent SELECTED industries in America from collapsing under the weight of corruption and incompetence before the whole shooting match goes down in flames.

We're nowhere near either socialism or fascism.

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

notajayhawk,

Obama's policies are doing pretty well. http://pollingreport.com/obama_ad.htm

When the Republican Party can put up a spokesman that more than half of the polling sample can identify as its spokesman then we'll be able to rate how well Republican policies are doing.

(laughter)

You're submitting an email from an MU student as support for an argument that fascism and socialism are the same thing? Because Hitler called his brand of fascism "socialism"?

(laughter)

GM currently is #1 in the US market, bankrupt and dropping inventory. Sales of pick-em-up trucks pushed them to sales of 768,126 through June 2nd. Toyota is second at 638,795 with two of the top four vehicles sold, both high mileage passenger cars. Toyota was second overall last year. Impressive as an import. This is a trend which has been coming for the last three years, it's not news.

Since the only other vehicles beating Toyota in the marketplace are two low mileage pickup trucks, any guess on whose cards you'd like to have?

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

Ford is about 40,000 vehicles (7%) behind Toyota right now. You can do the math, can't you? Why don't you email a student at MU for instructions how?

(laughter)

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

Fascism and socialism aren't the same and you know it.

George W. Bush isn't a "statist", he's just a corrupt alcoholic stooge for a club he couldn't join on his own.

Obama isn't a "statist", he's just using the power of the American Presidency to clean up messes caused by incompetence and corruption. He's not the first president to have to do this and my bet is that he won't be the last. A fascist he is not. The performance of the previous President, an alcoholic who had a hard time talking coherently on camera, just makes him look really good in comparison.

I find it hilarious that Obama can be both an American and a non-American to certain demographics. I find it hilarious that Obama can be both a socialist and a fascist / statist in the same post. What the criticism means is that, in all eyes, the critic has no idea what he's talking about. The imprecision in language is your first clue.

Europe operates under what most Americans would call "socialism" and right now they are producing better health care outcomes and the Euro is worth more than our own dollar. Hardly a "dismal result".

Realizing that we are all in this together is not "socialism". Identifying yourself as "an American" is not being a "statist". Identifying yourself as "a citizen of the world" is the first step to announcing that you are seeking a solution which benefits BOTH parties. The rest of the world is extremely happy to hear Obama say this.

Taking care of business to maintain the environment where profit can be made is not "socialism"; it's just taking care of business where the "free market" was unable or unwilling to take care of business.

There is incompetence on both sides of the aisle but I don't see Republicans doing anything other than disingenuously claiming that other Americans are at fault for what they did. Instead of jumping in and helping us get out of this mess, they produce a parade of idiots to obfuscate, not educate. Spokespeople not even Republicans take seriously.

0

notajayhawk 4 years, 10 months ago

porch_person (Anonymous) says…

"Obama has a 62%-64% approval rating right now. Mr. Givens is unaware of this."

Presidential approval ratings are essentially a popularity contest, and Obama is a likeable enough fellow. His policies, on the other hand, aren't polling quite so well. pork_person is unaware of this. Or, for that matter, pretty much anything else:

"Fascism and socialism are polar opposites and Mr. Givens is clearly unaware of this fact as well."

"http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/075.html"

From the link: 'Fascism is but a sect of socialism.'

"That's the point. We got our asses kicked by Japan on our own home court. Any change is an improvement."

Yet one more topic pork_person knows nothing about.

In business school, they used to teach the three great eras of marketing, described in terms of the iconic product, the automobile.

First came the Model T - 'you can get it in any color you want, as long as it's black.' They had a product, people needed that product, and Ford didn't have to do anything to entice buyers, only tell them where they could buy one.

In the fifties, it was all about differentiation. People were buying cars, and if you wanted them to buy your car instead of the other guy's car, you had to make yours different. But it was not a consumer-driven differentiation - they just made their cars look different with such changes as elephantine tail fins, or loaded them up with gadgets like push-button transmissions. The manufacturers, in other words, just put in design features they thought people would buy.

The third great era was the Japanese invasion. The Japanese did something radical - they asked questions. They'd go up to people and ask 'What do you like about that car?' And 'What don't you like about that car?' And the following model year, those changes were incorporated into their cars. In other words, they took over market share by giving people what they were asking for, not by telling them what they should want.

As this trend continued, however, the cars they were selling began to incorporate more and more features that Americans had looked for in domestic cars. Instead of stripped-down econo-boxes, they got fancier with more bells, whistles, and comforts, like the Camry (and later the higher-end luxury models like those from Lexus). Their trucks got bigger, like the Tundra. It turns out that giving people what they want meant giving them the American cars they'd always been buying (although maybe with better gas mileage).

Which is one reason why, which you might have known if you ever bothered to read anything, the one American car company that is not an agency of the federal government just passed Toyota for the number two spot in market share.

0

Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch_person (Anonymous) says…

"Fascism and socialism are polar opposites and Mr. Givens is clearly unaware of this fact as well. What “statism” is, I have no idea"

Not that I agree with the LTE, but fascism and socialism, economically, are very similar and produce the same dismal results. As far as statism, George Bush is a statist. Barrack Obama is a statist. Does that clear it up? The LTE takes aim only at democrats, but in reality, his statist accusation is just as accurately made against most of the republicans as well.

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Marion,

It's evident that the guy who headed General Motors before now knew nothing about cars.

That's the point. We got our asses kicked by Japan on our own home court. Any change is an improvement.

0

Marion Lynn 4 years, 10 months ago

The Chosen One has appointed a guy who by his own admission knows nothing about cars to head General Motors.

0

journeymanstation 4 years, 10 months ago

If you haven't realized both parties care more about being the majority. In the end its the same policies from both the demicans, and the republicrats. "Hello to the new boss same as the old boss" These policies being brought out were the same as the last administration. If nobody can really see that are country has truly been blinded by greed. Just really sad

0

JHOK32 4 years, 10 months ago

The answers are crystal clear. Bush invaded Iraq under the propaganda that he was "protecting the free world of all the terrible WMD's that Saddam had & Saddam was going to blow up America any second now!" This was the Bush mantra to scare the living hell out of us and give him our blessing to invade Iraq & kill Saddam. (Actually he didn't give a damn whether he had the American people's approval or not), he was doing it regardless. While the propaganda machine was using it's lies of WMD's as scare tactics, the true objective was for Bush's big oil buddies to get control of Iraq's massive oil fields.......does the term "bait & switch" ring a bell? As a secondary windfall, the huge U.S. Defense contractors (more Bush buddies)start making a killing (excuse the pun) because we are now at war!!! Is it any big surprise then that Exxon-Mobil posted the highest record profits of ANY U.S. company in the HISTORY of our nation? Do we start to see the pieces of the big puzzle fitting nicely together by now? Big oil gets big oil fields & big bucks, big defense gets big bucks, now all we need to do is get big bucks for the big banks & the big insurance companies.......charge the entire mess to the U.S. taxpayer & everybody is happy! (well maybe not the taxpayers), but who gives a crap about them! Our work here is done! Our last term is up & were outa here! Now the economy is in a shambles (because we've been robbed blind!) - the stock market has lost 40% of it's value along with our 401k's. It's a buyer's market right now my friends, real estate mansions are on sale for half price! You can pick up some great deals at the Sherrif's sales...................IF you got the money!!! And whose got the money??? I'll give you 3 guesses & none of them are us my friends!

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Pilgrim2,

I doubt Merrill will learn anything from someone who can't remember what he's typed.

(laughter)

A Fox news segment, brought to us via Canadians who can't spell the word "Wednesday", which argues that the Bush Administration needed to regulate more?

Naw, can't see the irony in that, especially coming from you.

(laughter)

A Fox news segment where Alan Greenspan warned about the size of the regulatory body yet recommended more regulation? Is this some sort of variation on "No child left behind"? "No home left behind" but we're not going to give you the funds to regulate because we're for "smaller government" or "deregulation to let the free markets work"?

(laughter)

The Bush Administration deregulates the markets and then warns, at the end of the Administration, that the deregulation could come back and bite us in the a$$.

And this is Obama's fault?

(laughter)

No, Pilgrim2, we're not going to learn anything from you. We've heard FOX BS before, we know where their bread is buttered.

0

Pilgrim2 4 years, 10 months ago

merrill (Anonymous) says…

Wall St. and the Media Are Trying to Make Us Forget Who Started the Financial Crash By Les Leopold, AlterNet. Posted May 20, 2009.

We're at the moment Wall Street has been waiting for: The time where we begin to forget who brought the economy down.


No, Richard, here is what caused the current financial mess:

Watch and learn.

0

Pilgrim2 4 years, 10 months ago

grammaddy (Anonymous) says…

Obama will take responsibility for the mess when it actually IS his mess and not a mess he inherited from the last administration.


Hey, gram, Don Henley is talking to you.

"You drag it around like a ball and chain You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down Complain about the present and blame it on the past I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little a**"

Get Over It From the album Hell Freezes Over (1994)

0

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 10 months ago

tumbilweed-

I'm no genius, but I am pretty sure the last sentence of your last post pretty much makes everything you said previously moot.

0

tumbilweed 4 years, 10 months ago

Seriously, if you experts spent the time you spend on this stupid comment forum actually doing something instead of commenting commenting commenting, who knows what you might achieve?

I comment too, but you guys have serious issues.

0

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 4 years, 10 months ago

"I am aware..."

"... the large number of progressive left... taking our country down the wrong path to statism, fascism."

Fascism? Really?

fascism |ˈfa sh ˌizəm| (also Fascism) noun an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

( I would offer more, but you've already told us you are "aware." )

0

tumbilweed 4 years, 10 months ago

America sucks now because of internet comment forums.

Much ado with absolutely no action, or results.

0

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

"Are you having second thoughts about Mr. Obama? He clearly is taking our country down the wrong path to statism, fascism.

The Obama during the campaign was much different than the progressive socialist man running (ruining) our country."

---Mr. Givens

============

That's where he lost me. The man doesn't know what "fascism", "statism" (?), "progressivism" or "socialism" are.

Obama has a 62%-64% approval rating right now. Mr. Givens is unaware of this.

Fascism and socialism are polar opposites and Mr. Givens is clearly unaware of this fact as well. What "statism" is, I have no idea. Mr. Givens is throwing whatever "terms" he can to see what sticks.

Overvaluation and unregulated speculation of real estate didn't make its first appearance during the Bush Administration but Mr. Givens seems to feel that only two Democrats during the anti-regulation environment of the Bush Administration were responsible.

And the cherry on top is that a person who isn't aware of the current Fox network polls on Obama and who doesn't know what fascism or socialism are (he used them interchangeably) is calling 64% of the country "sheep".

That's funny. So much for asking "serious questions".

(laughter)

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

Regurgitation of the idea of a single theology/ideology in the founding of our nation does not make it so. And the quotes I sited were due to the mangled representation some use to try and state this country as having been founded as a "religious" nation. That was not the intent. The intent was that we all be free to believe as we choose, so as to grant all the ability to pursue a life and what happiness we may find on the journey, free of governmental mandates requiring a given belief system or theology.

It is truly frightening when ideals of tolerance, diversity and progress can be poisoned with a smirk and soundbyte.

I will take hope over vitriol-laced fear any day.

0

75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

See, Mr. Givens? A collection of anti-religious quotes replacing an understanding of the nature of tyranny, liberty, natural law and it's relationship with government structures. Preservation of freedom and liberty are the goals of good government - and whose value has been thrown to the side in the intent of modern government to 'create' happiness for it's citizens rather than guaranteeing their pursuit of it.

Tyranny is still tyranny, despite whatever happy face of "progress" is painted on it, with such modern sophisms such as 'diversity' and silly notions that "our country was not founded on a singular theological or ideological viewpoint...", when, yes, Virginia, it was. The modern sophisticates have just cast it aside - either from ignorance or arrogance, or both. The end result of course is the now unbridled advance of governmental power grabs and inevitable tyranny against it's citizens.

The intent of the founders is clearest in the Declaration - "all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." - race, class, creed cannot claim privilege in that bold statement.

0

vega 4 years, 10 months ago

Ha, ha, ha Demark is a famous fascist country, really!!!???

0

notajayhawk 4 years, 10 months ago

Has anyone heard from merrill today?

0

Richard Heckler 4 years, 10 months ago

Actually the Bush treasury department was the acting watch dog. You repubs go to great lengths supporting the criminal leadership of your party and have been since Reagan/Bush.

The Second Savings and Loan Scandal 1/21/09 http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/21/wamu-indymac-thrifts-oped-cx_mh_jo_0121hudsonoverton.html

Oversight Authority would have been the Bush Treasury Department because GW Bush was president: http://www.ots.treas.gov/

YOU, Wall St. and the Media Are Trying to Make Us Forget Who Started the Financial Crash By Les Leopold, AlterNet. Posted May 20, 2009.

We're at the moment Wall Street has been waiting for: The time where we begin to forget who brought the economy down.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/140123/wall_st._and_the_media_are_trying_to_make_us_forget_who_started_the_financial_crash/

The repub/neoconservative/PNAC party is largest law breaker in our nations history:

Isn't it odd each time our nations financial institutions crumble there are Bush family near by and a McCain still in office?

Who has history with financial institutions going south such as the savings and loan scandal? Republicans! http://rationalrevolution0.tripod.com/war/bush_family_and_the_s.htm

0

Richard Heckler 4 years, 10 months ago

Crime,wrecking economies,stealing mideast oil,robbing banks,sending USA jobs abroad,busting unions,opening the floodgates for illegal immigrant labor = Reagan/Bush/Bush = dumb economics = no economic growth or new wealth for america = Grover Norquist = criminal dishonesty!

Yes GW Bush was busy wrecking the economy with his friends the investment bankers. Then he was pre occupied funding his multi trillion dollar war,funding his multi trillion dollar war profiteers off budget and cutting taxes at the same time aka living in fantasy land.

What GW left behind was a country with fewer jobs,enormous debt,bank frauds and an ever increasing war machine budget.

BUSHCO created this fiasco with the idea in mind that the PNAC repubs could manipulate this mess into an Obama failure. However WE know how PNAC facists operate and WE will be very busy reminding voters what a bunch of criminals the repub party puts in office.

====================================================== YOUR party supported GW Bush as he wandered about the country lying to citizens about Social Security for which he should have been placed behind bars. http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2005/0505orr.html ========================================== McCain: The Most Reprehensible of the Keating Five. The story of "the Keating Five" has become a scandal rivaling Teapot Dome and Watergate ... http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-11-29/news/mccain-the-most-reprehensible-of-the-keating-five/1 ===========================================

CRIME: Who hosted the Iran Contra secret illegal sale of weapons? Republicans! http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/irancontra/irancon.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html ================================================ CRIME: Who brought the nation Iran Contra number 2? Republicans! http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/5/iran_contra_20_how_the_bush ================================================ CRIME: Which party illegally spied on the democrats to win an election? Republicans! Watergate! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/watergate/index.html ================================================= CRIME: Which party held secret energy meetings and refused our elected officials its' content and who attended? GW Bush and the republicans! OCCUPY IRAQ ! ================================================== CRIME: Which party lied to congress and the world,went against military advice and created the worst strategic blunder in the history of the USA aka Iraq War? Republican Party! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348418/ ===================================================

Which party has held secret oil deals with Saudi Arabia? Republicans! http://www.democracynow.org/2004/4/20/did_bush_cut_secret_oil_deal

CRIME: Secret Oil deals for Iraq Oil- Republicans! http://www.pubrecord.org/nationworld/262.html?task=view ====================================================

0

RETICENT_IRREVERENT 4 years, 10 months ago

Wesley Mouch and the rest of the special masters are coming...

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

75x55-

The principles of our founding fathers included ideas you seem to find abhorrent...

"Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war" “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion" "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
--John Adams

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson,

They, along with countless others who founded and preserved the unity of our country, state the opposite of what so many today proselytize.... our country was not founded on a singular theological or ideological viewpoint. Were they both terrorist/socialist/leftist wishing to destroy the foundation of our nation? Were they immoral and evil for questioning long-standing beliefs and practices? Nay, they were on virtually opposite ends of the political spectrum. Yet their differences, as well as their similarities made our foundations great.

Our country is no more going downhill or being recast than it ever was. Change and forward momentum are constant processes. Our differences give us strength, as a nation and as a world. Discussion that moves us past irrational hatred of others creates an environment ripe for the creation of solutions.

0

Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

What's next, a "coffee czar"? To make sure us poor defenseless subjects of the Obama Regime don't get addicted and drink too much coffee. Sad days ahead.

0

75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

Mr. Givens - I would guess that you've gotten your answer by now.

It's not a matter that people have "fallen asleep", but that they've lost any interest in the things that made this country great, and the principles and philosophies of the founding fathers that guided that fledgling nation.

They actually WANT to destroy these things and recast the nation into some post-modern form that, despite all evidence to the contrary, they believe will have some lasting benefit.

The real facts are that this has been going on for decades, and the slow, gradual decline of interest or care for the real foundation stones of this republic have been sapped away from the greater part of the population - replaced with a milieu of self-absorbed, irrational worldviews, such that people will call the good, evil, and the evil, good.

People won't wake up because they don't know enough to recognize whether they are asleep or not.

0

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 10 months ago

Once again, its posters like jonas at 9:08am, devobrun at 10:15am, and logicsound at 10:25am who prove that there is still intelligent thought in Lawrence. Their posts are not the typical liberal or conservative babble that they saw on Olberman or Hannity. Dare I say that thinking of this nature is exactly what this country needs. The world is not black and white, but shades of gray. If we are to avoid the path that leads to our country's inevitable self-destruction it will be with tempered thoughts, a move away from rhetoric designed to win elections, and compromise. I commend the three posters I mentioned before for their concise, well-thought out responses.

0

Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

Hey there Defender, just them quoting Volckers words. What about that is lying?

0

Bowhunter99 4 years, 10 months ago

Price of Gas goes up by 40% during the Bush administration and it's ALL Bush&Cheney's fault...

Price of gas goes up by 40% (the past 4 months) and Obama is not at fault???? why not? and remember 'supply and demand' (the theory you refused to acknowledge the past 8 years) can not be used to explain the gauging currently happening caused solely by the Obama administration.

0

dweezil222 4 years, 10 months ago

I love how EVERYONE just sits here and slings political B.S. and starts name-calling. How about blaming the people really responsible? AIG and its banking brethren should have been smart enough not to make ridiculous loans and largely caused what (absent a bailout) would have been their own demise. The politicians didn't do this, at least not by themselves. Place the blame where it really belongs.

0

Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

The LTE writer is wrong about the cause of the recession. The primary cause was the artificial lowering of interest rates by the federal reserve from 2002-2004 that caused an overexpansion in the economy. Now that we are in the contraction phase Obama's policies certainly aren't helping though.

0

Defender 4 years, 10 months ago

Tom, another link to newsmax? Wow, newsmax is a liars website, no wonder you go there.

0

feeble 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberal Fascism? Someone's been reading their Jonah Goldberg.

I'll quote Austin W. Bramwell writing in The American Conservative: "Not only does Goldberg misunderstand liberalism, but he refuses to see it simply as liberalism... Liberal Fascism reads less like an extended argument than as a catalogue of conservative intellectual clichés, often irrelevant to the supposed point of the book."

http://amconmag.com/2008/2008_01_28/review.html

0

BrianR 4 years, 10 months ago

Clinton did it. HAHAHAHAHA! That is hilarious and a lie. Socialism. HAHAHAHAHA! Another fearmongering lie.

Congratulations Kyle L. Givens, you've just been inducted into the bed-wetting right.

0

Calliope877 4 years, 10 months ago

logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

It seems the LJWorld is now conducting “word tests” to determine which LTE submissions get published.

Approved words, as far as I can tell:

“abortion”

“statism”

“fascism”

Hey, don't forget "socialism". That word gets thrown around alot too.

0

parrotuya 4 years, 10 months ago

This letter is full of discredited conspiracy theories. Givens needs to get up to date in the world of reality. Nothing new to see here, keep moving on!

More and bigger tax cuts for the wealthy!

DOWn, baby, DOWn!

0

pace 4 years, 10 months ago

i just think that believing that Bush and co. had nothing to do with the economic collapse or how badly the wars were conducted is a sign of either insanity or stupidity. A grown up apologizes when they make a error and recognizes it. Then the way is clear to progress to a better road. Obama is not perfect but the road is a higher road than the gutter Bush led us to.

0

jaywalker 4 years, 10 months ago

"I am ashamed of those who use words like statism and fascism to cover up their racism"

Deep, sorrowful groan.

0

couranna1 4 years, 10 months ago

america you are officially second rate

0

Leslie Swearingen 4 years, 10 months ago

Nope, I am still very happy with having voted for President Obama. I am ashamed of those who use words like statism and fascism to cover up their racism. The United States is a democracy and will remain so. Don't lose any sleep over it.

0

logicsound09 4 years, 10 months ago

It seems the LJWorld is now conducting "word tests" to determine which LTE submissions get published.

Approved words, as far as I can tell:

"abortion"

"statism"

"fascism"

I think the most amusing thing about this LTE is that he's still stuck on the "who is Obama really?" question. If I had to imagine a LJWorld LTE written by Glen Beck, this would be it. It's hysterical, sensationalist and out of touch.

I am not an Obama apologist--he has done things that I appreciate as well as things about which I have misgivings. I just find the whole "sky is falling" rhetoric that seems to be prevalent among the anti-Obama crowd to be a bit immature. Both Mr. Givens' and Mr. Reynolds' letters were slightly different phrasings of the exact same garbage.

0

gogoplata 4 years, 10 months ago

Obama will take responsibility for the mess when it actually IS his mess and not a mess he inherited from the last administration.

He is the president so it is his mess. That is the way it works here. Every 4-8 years we get a new guy to fix the mess or keep it going. So far I have not seen much in the way of getting it fixed.

0

devobrun 4 years, 10 months ago

"Wake up, people, your individual liberty is at stake"

Individual liberty is a quaint notion that was promoted by Thomas Jefferson and other progressive minds about 220 years ago. It is the reason that the bill of rights is in the constitution.

Over time, the general population of the U.S. has moved away from individual freedom and toward safety and security. Since about the Kennedy administration, the growth of government and the loss of individual liberty has moved apace.

Today we find ourselves in a country that values rules, laws, top-down control of everything that you do. "Experts" know better than you and government listens to the committees, computer model predictions, and PhD pundits. Your in good hands with the experts. They will lead you toward salvation and peace. And the cost is individual liberty.

You lament the Obama administration and its further gathering of power over individuals. What did you expect?

Oh, Obama isn't really in charge either, bureaucrats are in charge. Committees, experts, institutions make the decisions. You're being jerked around by nameless, faceless bureaucrats in D.C. and think tanks around the country. The expertise is disseminated via experts in marketing and public relations. You are the Borg. You think that changing president will change the Borg. Obama is just the latest in a long run of figureheads that have only limited power to do anything. Don't blame Bush. Don't blame Obama. Blame yourselves for giving up your individual freedom.

You folks are the ones who are slaves to technology, rules, and experts. You are the ones who bailed out of math in school, so you don't understand physics, statistics, rational thought. So you are getting led around by your nose ring to get your new tattoo. Talking on your cell to people you are connected to. Twittering, texting, and connecting yourselves to others and leaving your individuality in the gutter.

0

lucky_guy 4 years, 10 months ago

First of all the alleged "indisputable fact" is a lie started by the RIGHT wing regressive media. Most suprime loans were outside of the CRA. So that is first. MR Givens needs to turn off Glen Beck for a little while and look for the truth a little more that what is on FOX news.
See link: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=did_liberals_cause_the_subprime_crisis So here we are again. BIg lies told, then someone says how can you not want to assassinate the prez, abortionist, left wing media, etc. Then we get some wing-nut to carry out the deed, and everyone will tsk, tsk and say I didn't cause this. Why not that seems to work for abortion.

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberal smear? Laughable. And of course there is a window of time prior to solutions beginning to bear fruit in any instance. One of the elements of the equasion is dependant upon the level of catastrophe in place at the beginning of the tenure. One might compare it to the burning building analogy. In the case of the current crisis- the building is still on fire, still in the rage of the conflagration and a new set of firefighters is on the scene.... Fire needs to be brought under control and extinguished prior to attempting to rebuild the structure. There is absolutely no comparison to the condition of our economy, world standing, unemployment, etc January 2009 to where our nation stood January 2000. Regardless of whom you perceive as being responsible, the fire is not yet out, and a massive catastrophe such as the state of our nation circa 2009 will take much time, massive effort, vast quantities of diplomacy and considerable resources to repair. Period. There is no quick fix to the quandries we as a nation find ourselves in at this time. It is naught but ignorance to continue to assert that pure, unadulterated fear-mongering is in any way, shape or form a solution. Show an original thought, share your ideas as to new and inventive solutions to the issues at hand, and respectful, thoughtful dialogue will follow. Be a part of a hopeful, insightful populace whom seeks to create a path forward, and the hatred disappears. Regardless of our differences, we as a nation, as a world, are in this together, for better or worse.

I hope for better.

0

Aisling 4 years, 10 months ago

So many who said “But Clinton” now say there is no excuse for “But Bush.”

So many who said that there was no excuse for “But Clinton” now say “But Bush.”

The only winner is the aggregate level of hypocricy, it seems. well said, Jonas

0

BigPrune 4 years, 10 months ago

Very brave of you to write this letter Kyle. I suggest you park your cars in the garage for the next few months so they don't get vandalized from some of our freedom of speech hating liberal inhabitants.

0

barrypenders 4 years, 10 months ago

Grammaddy has a coherent point. When has someone like Obama every been held responsible for their actions? He can always lay his credit on preceding societal status quo anomalies.

0

notajayhawk 4 years, 10 months ago

a_flock_of_jayhawks (Anonymous) says…

"Nothing to see here."

There's something poetic about 'flock' answering the LTE writer's closing query in the affirmative.

0

Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

It also appears the nation is in a redivivus of patriotism, and just plain old realism following a miserable several years of a well-planned liberal smear and attack machine, followed by a ridiculously euphoric stage of Obamamania. I'd say Democrats are getting their chance at hope and change that they beat the drum on and unless a near complete 180 of the current direction is seen, are going to get ousted summarily next year and two years from that.

0

Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

I think most rational people are beyond the "but, but Bush" stage now. There are still the hard-core BDS sufferers and ultra far-left like Keith Olbermann, who you would think has gotten what he wanted the past two election cycles but just can't seem to cover the current administration properly, yet harps to no end on Republicans this and Republicans that, with special emphasis on Rush, Palin, Steele, Gingrich and a few others.

The Obama, Reid and Pelosi Regime has, I believe officially entered into their own ball game and the game is not going so well. I think Americans are just somewhere between bewildered and in mild shock over what they've seen in just less than six months.

0

jonas_opines 4 years, 10 months ago

So many who said "But Clinton" now say there is no excuse for "But Bush."

So many who said that there was no excuse for "But Clinton" now say "But Bush."

The only winner is the aggregate level of hypocricy, it seems.

0

sandersen 4 years, 10 months ago

Unbelievable. How many years were those in the GOP rank and file still pointing the finger at Clinton during the Bush tenure..... 6-7+ years? Yet now those self-same parrots want to pin all economic difficulties, AIG/bank/auto bailouts, etc on Obama, even though they began under Bush. And we are only 4-5 months into this administration, yet suddenly, every known ill human kind endures is the fault of "progressives, liberals, the left"?

This is the same old song and dance that tried and failed before. We know your ilk, have heard the redundant rhetoric before. Frighten the populace with red-scare tactics and attempt to wrap yourself in a quilt of faux morality and the flag, as if you invented and copy-righted patriotism. I am sorry you are frightened. Frightened of a black president. Frightened of a hispanic female on the supreme court. Frightened of the gay/lesbian loan officer at your bank. Of a church or belief system that differs from yours.

But the sky isn't falling. It already fell. And now we are all cleaning up the by-blow.

For the record, repeating a lie to monotony does not thence make it a truth.

0

a_flock_of_jayhawks 4 years, 10 months ago

Nothing to see here. We stop for a moment to hear what people like this LTE writer are saying, chuckle a bit once it is clear that what they are saying is psychobabble, then go about the business of making America great again.

Thanks for the laughs, Kyle.

0

grammaddy 4 years, 10 months ago

Obama will take responsibility for the mess when it actually IS his mess and not a mess he inherited from the last administration. When he's through cleaning up the current mess and makes one of his own, he'll clean it up too.And Ted Kennedy is bad????

0

Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

There'll have to be some incredible movement pretty soon or Obama's fate as a one-term disaster will be sealed. I'm not saying a Republican would win either, just not Obama. At the current rate, he will be handily defeated in the primaries. Who'll run against Obama? Biden? Clinton? I hope so. The Democratic Party's bad behavior and chumming around with the far-left blogosphere since the Iraq war is shaping up to come back to haunt them. They had better start getting some positive movement pretty quick.

0

Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

"Are you having second thoughts about Mr. Obama? "

Take this survey---or just view results: http://js.polls.yahoo.com/quiz/quiziframe.php?poll_id=46067

And looks like this stimulus "adventure" that Obama, Pelosi and Reid were so hot under the collar for is not so popular with Americans.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/economic_stimulus_package/45_say_cancel_rest_of_stimulus_spending

0

b_asinbeer 4 years, 10 months ago

The biggest misleader of them all is finally out of office. Bush+War=one of many FAILures

0

igby 4 years, 10 months ago

But American's deserve to be screwed into socialism. The whole world is waiting!

0

Commenting has been disabled for this item.