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Archive for Thursday, June 11, 2009

Misleading the flock?

June 11, 2009

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To the editor:

I agree with David Reynolds’ letter titled “Wrong change.” The progressive left continues to blame the previous administration. The left will not admit Barney Frank’s and Chris Dodd’s roles in the financial crises. The indisputable fact is the “Community Reinvestment Act” was largely responsible for this mess. When is the current administration going to take ownership of their destructive policies?

I am aware of the large number of progressive left who call Lawrence home. I have to ask you a serious question. Are you having second thoughts about Mr. Obama? He clearly is taking our country down the wrong path to statism, fascism. This is the United States of America, not Denmark or any other European country. Wake up, people, your individual liberty is at stake. I hope you realize this in the 2012 election.

The Obama during the campaign was much different than the progressive socialist man running (ruining) our country. Perhaps, if Americans knew his true beliefs and agenda he would not be residing in the Oval Office. One could make the comparison of Mr. Obama’s true self being all the way left even passing Ted Kennedy on the progressive ideology scale. (God help us all).

Obama is apologizing to the world for being an arrogant capitalist country. Analogy: Obama is a farmer leading his sheep (his supporters) to the IBP plant for processing. His hope is to process capitalism into a new socialist America. Are you a sheep?

Givens is from Lawrence

Comments

igby 5 years, 6 months ago

But American's deserve to be screwed into socialism. The whole world is waiting!

b_asinbeer 5 years, 6 months ago

The biggest misleader of them all is finally out of office. Bush+War=one of many FAILures

grammaddy 5 years, 6 months ago

Obama will take responsibility for the mess when it actually IS his mess and not a mess he inherited from the last administration. When he's through cleaning up the current mess and makes one of his own, he'll clean it up too.And Ted Kennedy is bad????

a_flock_of_jayhawks 5 years, 6 months ago

Nothing to see here. We stop for a moment to hear what people like this LTE writer are saying, chuckle a bit once it is clear that what they are saying is psychobabble, then go about the business of making America great again.

Thanks for the laughs, Kyle.

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

Unbelievable. How many years were those in the GOP rank and file still pointing the finger at Clinton during the Bush tenure..... 6-7+ years? Yet now those self-same parrots want to pin all economic difficulties, AIG/bank/auto bailouts, etc on Obama, even though they began under Bush. And we are only 4-5 months into this administration, yet suddenly, every known ill human kind endures is the fault of "progressives, liberals, the left"?

This is the same old song and dance that tried and failed before. We know your ilk, have heard the redundant rhetoric before. Frighten the populace with red-scare tactics and attempt to wrap yourself in a quilt of faux morality and the flag, as if you invented and copy-righted patriotism. I am sorry you are frightened. Frightened of a black president. Frightened of a hispanic female on the supreme court. Frightened of the gay/lesbian loan officer at your bank. Of a church or belief system that differs from yours.

But the sky isn't falling. It already fell. And now we are all cleaning up the by-blow.

For the record, repeating a lie to monotony does not thence make it a truth.

jonas_opines 5 years, 6 months ago

So many who said "But Clinton" now say there is no excuse for "But Bush."

So many who said that there was no excuse for "But Clinton" now say "But Bush."

The only winner is the aggregate level of hypocricy, it seems.

notajayhawk 5 years, 6 months ago

a_flock_of_jayhawks (Anonymous) says…

"Nothing to see here."

There's something poetic about 'flock' answering the LTE writer's closing query in the affirmative.

BigPrune 5 years, 6 months ago

Very brave of you to write this letter Kyle. I suggest you park your cars in the garage for the next few months so they don't get vandalized from some of our freedom of speech hating liberal inhabitants.

Aisling 5 years, 6 months ago

So many who said “But Clinton” now say there is no excuse for “But Bush.”

So many who said that there was no excuse for “But Clinton” now say “But Bush.”

The only winner is the aggregate level of hypocricy, it seems. well said, Jonas

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

Liberal smear? Laughable. And of course there is a window of time prior to solutions beginning to bear fruit in any instance. One of the elements of the equasion is dependant upon the level of catastrophe in place at the beginning of the tenure. One might compare it to the burning building analogy. In the case of the current crisis- the building is still on fire, still in the rage of the conflagration and a new set of firefighters is on the scene.... Fire needs to be brought under control and extinguished prior to attempting to rebuild the structure. There is absolutely no comparison to the condition of our economy, world standing, unemployment, etc January 2009 to where our nation stood January 2000. Regardless of whom you perceive as being responsible, the fire is not yet out, and a massive catastrophe such as the state of our nation circa 2009 will take much time, massive effort, vast quantities of diplomacy and considerable resources to repair. Period. There is no quick fix to the quandries we as a nation find ourselves in at this time. It is naught but ignorance to continue to assert that pure, unadulterated fear-mongering is in any way, shape or form a solution. Show an original thought, share your ideas as to new and inventive solutions to the issues at hand, and respectful, thoughtful dialogue will follow. Be a part of a hopeful, insightful populace whom seeks to create a path forward, and the hatred disappears. Regardless of our differences, we as a nation, as a world, are in this together, for better or worse.

I hope for better.

lucky_guy 5 years, 6 months ago

First of all the alleged "indisputable fact" is a lie started by the RIGHT wing regressive media. Most suprime loans were outside of the CRA. So that is first. MR Givens needs to turn off Glen Beck for a little while and look for the truth a little more that what is on FOX news.
See link: http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=did_liberals_cause_the_subprime_crisis So here we are again. BIg lies told, then someone says how can you not want to assassinate the prez, abortionist, left wing media, etc. Then we get some wing-nut to carry out the deed, and everyone will tsk, tsk and say I didn't cause this. Why not that seems to work for abortion.

devobrun 5 years, 6 months ago

"Wake up, people, your individual liberty is at stake"

Individual liberty is a quaint notion that was promoted by Thomas Jefferson and other progressive minds about 220 years ago. It is the reason that the bill of rights is in the constitution.

Over time, the general population of the U.S. has moved away from individual freedom and toward safety and security. Since about the Kennedy administration, the growth of government and the loss of individual liberty has moved apace.

Today we find ourselves in a country that values rules, laws, top-down control of everything that you do. "Experts" know better than you and government listens to the committees, computer model predictions, and PhD pundits. Your in good hands with the experts. They will lead you toward salvation and peace. And the cost is individual liberty.

You lament the Obama administration and its further gathering of power over individuals. What did you expect?

Oh, Obama isn't really in charge either, bureaucrats are in charge. Committees, experts, institutions make the decisions. You're being jerked around by nameless, faceless bureaucrats in D.C. and think tanks around the country. The expertise is disseminated via experts in marketing and public relations. You are the Borg. You think that changing president will change the Borg. Obama is just the latest in a long run of figureheads that have only limited power to do anything. Don't blame Bush. Don't blame Obama. Blame yourselves for giving up your individual freedom.

You folks are the ones who are slaves to technology, rules, and experts. You are the ones who bailed out of math in school, so you don't understand physics, statistics, rational thought. So you are getting led around by your nose ring to get your new tattoo. Talking on your cell to people you are connected to. Twittering, texting, and connecting yourselves to others and leaving your individuality in the gutter.

gogoplata 5 years, 6 months ago

Obama will take responsibility for the mess when it actually IS his mess and not a mess he inherited from the last administration.

He is the president so it is his mess. That is the way it works here. Every 4-8 years we get a new guy to fix the mess or keep it going. So far I have not seen much in the way of getting it fixed.

Leslie Swearingen 5 years, 6 months ago

Nope, I am still very happy with having voted for President Obama. I am ashamed of those who use words like statism and fascism to cover up their racism. The United States is a democracy and will remain so. Don't lose any sleep over it.

jaywalker 5 years, 6 months ago

"I am ashamed of those who use words like statism and fascism to cover up their racism"

Deep, sorrowful groan.

pace 5 years, 6 months ago

i just think that believing that Bush and co. had nothing to do with the economic collapse or how badly the wars were conducted is a sign of either insanity or stupidity. A grown up apologizes when they make a error and recognizes it. Then the way is clear to progress to a better road. Obama is not perfect but the road is a higher road than the gutter Bush led us to.

Calliope877 5 years, 6 months ago

logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

It seems the LJWorld is now conducting “word tests” to determine which LTE submissions get published.

Approved words, as far as I can tell:

“abortion”

“statism”

“fascism”

Hey, don't forget "socialism". That word gets thrown around alot too.

BrianR 5 years, 6 months ago

Clinton did it. HAHAHAHAHA! That is hilarious and a lie. Socialism. HAHAHAHAHA! Another fearmongering lie.

Congratulations Kyle L. Givens, you've just been inducted into the bed-wetting right.

feeble 5 years, 6 months ago

Liberal Fascism? Someone's been reading their Jonah Goldberg.

I'll quote Austin W. Bramwell writing in The American Conservative: "Not only does Goldberg misunderstand liberalism, but he refuses to see it simply as liberalism... Liberal Fascism reads less like an extended argument than as a catalogue of conservative intellectual clichés, often irrelevant to the supposed point of the book."

http://amconmag.com/2008/2008_01_28/review.html

dweezil222 5 years, 6 months ago

I love how EVERYONE just sits here and slings political B.S. and starts name-calling. How about blaming the people really responsible? AIG and its banking brethren should have been smart enough not to make ridiculous loans and largely caused what (absent a bailout) would have been their own demise. The politicians didn't do this, at least not by themselves. Place the blame where it really belongs.

TheYetiSpeaks 5 years, 6 months ago

Once again, its posters like jonas at 9:08am, devobrun at 10:15am, and logicsound at 10:25am who prove that there is still intelligent thought in Lawrence. Their posts are not the typical liberal or conservative babble that they saw on Olberman or Hannity. Dare I say that thinking of this nature is exactly what this country needs. The world is not black and white, but shades of gray. If we are to avoid the path that leads to our country's inevitable self-destruction it will be with tempered thoughts, a move away from rhetoric designed to win elections, and compromise. I commend the three posters I mentioned before for their concise, well-thought out responses.

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

75x55-

The principles of our founding fathers included ideas you seem to find abhorrent...

"Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war" “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion" "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
--John Adams

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson,

They, along with countless others who founded and preserved the unity of our country, state the opposite of what so many today proselytize.... our country was not founded on a singular theological or ideological viewpoint. Were they both terrorist/socialist/leftist wishing to destroy the foundation of our nation? Were they immoral and evil for questioning long-standing beliefs and practices? Nay, they were on virtually opposite ends of the political spectrum. Yet their differences, as well as their similarities made our foundations great.

Our country is no more going downhill or being recast than it ever was. Change and forward momentum are constant processes. Our differences give us strength, as a nation and as a world. Discussion that moves us past irrational hatred of others creates an environment ripe for the creation of solutions.

Richard Heckler 5 years, 6 months ago

Crime,wrecking economies,stealing mideast oil,robbing banks,sending USA jobs abroad,busting unions,opening the floodgates for illegal immigrant labor = Reagan/Bush/Bush = dumb economics = no economic growth or new wealth for america = Grover Norquist = criminal dishonesty!

Yes GW Bush was busy wrecking the economy with his friends the investment bankers. Then he was pre occupied funding his multi trillion dollar war,funding his multi trillion dollar war profiteers off budget and cutting taxes at the same time aka living in fantasy land.

What GW left behind was a country with fewer jobs,enormous debt,bank frauds and an ever increasing war machine budget.

BUSHCO created this fiasco with the idea in mind that the PNAC repubs could manipulate this mess into an Obama failure. However WE know how PNAC facists operate and WE will be very busy reminding voters what a bunch of criminals the repub party puts in office.

====================================================== YOUR party supported GW Bush as he wandered about the country lying to citizens about Social Security for which he should have been placed behind bars. http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2005/0505orr.html ========================================== McCain: The Most Reprehensible of the Keating Five. The story of "the Keating Five" has become a scandal rivaling Teapot Dome and Watergate ... http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-11-29/news/mccain-the-most-reprehensible-of-the-keating-five/1 ===========================================

CRIME: Who hosted the Iran Contra secret illegal sale of weapons? Republicans! http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/irancontra/irancon.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html ================================================ CRIME: Who brought the nation Iran Contra number 2? Republicans! http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/5/iran_contra_20_how_the_bush ================================================ CRIME: Which party illegally spied on the democrats to win an election? Republicans! Watergate! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/watergate/index.html ================================================= CRIME: Which party held secret energy meetings and refused our elected officials its' content and who attended? GW Bush and the republicans! OCCUPY IRAQ ! ================================================== CRIME: Which party lied to congress and the world,went against military advice and created the worst strategic blunder in the history of the USA aka Iraq War? Republican Party! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348418/ ===================================================

Which party has held secret oil deals with Saudi Arabia? Republicans! http://www.democracynow.org/2004/4/20/did_bush_cut_secret_oil_deal

CRIME: Secret Oil deals for Iraq Oil- Republicans! http://www.pubrecord.org/nationworld/262.html?task=view ====================================================

Richard Heckler 5 years, 6 months ago

Actually the Bush treasury department was the acting watch dog. You repubs go to great lengths supporting the criminal leadership of your party and have been since Reagan/Bush.

The Second Savings and Loan Scandal 1/21/09 http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/21/wamu-indymac-thrifts-oped-cx_mh_jo_0121hudsonoverton.html

Oversight Authority would have been the Bush Treasury Department because GW Bush was president: http://www.ots.treas.gov/

YOU, Wall St. and the Media Are Trying to Make Us Forget Who Started the Financial Crash By Les Leopold, AlterNet. Posted May 20, 2009.

We're at the moment Wall Street has been waiting for: The time where we begin to forget who brought the economy down.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/140123/wall_st._and_the_media_are_trying_to_make_us_forget_who_started_the_financial_crash/

The repub/neoconservative/PNAC party is largest law breaker in our nations history:

Isn't it odd each time our nations financial institutions crumble there are Bush family near by and a McCain still in office?

Who has history with financial institutions going south such as the savings and loan scandal? Republicans! http://rationalrevolution0.tripod.com/war/bush_family_and_the_s.htm

vega 5 years, 6 months ago

Ha, ha, ha Demark is a famous fascist country, really!!!???

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

Regurgitation of the idea of a single theology/ideology in the founding of our nation does not make it so. And the quotes I sited were due to the mangled representation some use to try and state this country as having been founded as a "religious" nation. That was not the intent. The intent was that we all be free to believe as we choose, so as to grant all the ability to pursue a life and what happiness we may find on the journey, free of governmental mandates requiring a given belief system or theology.

It is truly frightening when ideals of tolerance, diversity and progress can be poisoned with a smirk and soundbyte.

I will take hope over vitriol-laced fear any day.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 6 months ago

"I am aware..."

"... the large number of progressive left... taking our country down the wrong path to statism, fascism."

Fascism? Really?

fascism |ˈfa sh ˌizəm| (also Fascism) noun an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

( I would offer more, but you've already told us you are "aware." )

TheYetiSpeaks 5 years, 6 months ago

tumbilweed-

I'm no genius, but I am pretty sure the last sentence of your last post pretty much makes everything you said previously moot.

JHOK32 5 years, 6 months ago

The answers are crystal clear. Bush invaded Iraq under the propaganda that he was "protecting the free world of all the terrible WMD's that Saddam had & Saddam was going to blow up America any second now!" This was the Bush mantra to scare the living hell out of us and give him our blessing to invade Iraq & kill Saddam. (Actually he didn't give a damn whether he had the American people's approval or not), he was doing it regardless. While the propaganda machine was using it's lies of WMD's as scare tactics, the true objective was for Bush's big oil buddies to get control of Iraq's massive oil fields.......does the term "bait & switch" ring a bell? As a secondary windfall, the huge U.S. Defense contractors (more Bush buddies)start making a killing (excuse the pun) because we are now at war!!! Is it any big surprise then that Exxon-Mobil posted the highest record profits of ANY U.S. company in the HISTORY of our nation? Do we start to see the pieces of the big puzzle fitting nicely together by now? Big oil gets big oil fields & big bucks, big defense gets big bucks, now all we need to do is get big bucks for the big banks & the big insurance companies.......charge the entire mess to the U.S. taxpayer & everybody is happy! (well maybe not the taxpayers), but who gives a crap about them! Our work here is done! Our last term is up & were outa here! Now the economy is in a shambles (because we've been robbed blind!) - the stock market has lost 40% of it's value along with our 401k's. It's a buyer's market right now my friends, real estate mansions are on sale for half price! You can pick up some great deals at the Sherrif's sales...................IF you got the money!!! And whose got the money??? I'll give you 3 guesses & none of them are us my friends!

journeymanstation 5 years, 6 months ago

If you haven't realized both parties care more about being the majority. In the end its the same policies from both the demicans, and the republicrats. "Hello to the new boss same as the old boss" These policies being brought out were the same as the last administration. If nobody can really see that are country has truly been blinded by greed. Just really sad

notajayhawk 5 years, 6 months ago

porch_person (Anonymous) says…

"Obama has a 62%-64% approval rating right now. Mr. Givens is unaware of this."

Presidential approval ratings are essentially a popularity contest, and Obama is a likeable enough fellow. His policies, on the other hand, aren't polling quite so well. pork_person is unaware of this. Or, for that matter, pretty much anything else:

"Fascism and socialism are polar opposites and Mr. Givens is clearly unaware of this fact as well."

"http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/075.html"

From the link: 'Fascism is but a sect of socialism.'

"That's the point. We got our asses kicked by Japan on our own home court. Any change is an improvement."

Yet one more topic pork_person knows nothing about.

In business school, they used to teach the three great eras of marketing, described in terms of the iconic product, the automobile.

First came the Model T - 'you can get it in any color you want, as long as it's black.' They had a product, people needed that product, and Ford didn't have to do anything to entice buyers, only tell them where they could buy one.

In the fifties, it was all about differentiation. People were buying cars, and if you wanted them to buy your car instead of the other guy's car, you had to make yours different. But it was not a consumer-driven differentiation - they just made their cars look different with such changes as elephantine tail fins, or loaded them up with gadgets like push-button transmissions. The manufacturers, in other words, just put in design features they thought people would buy.

The third great era was the Japanese invasion. The Japanese did something radical - they asked questions. They'd go up to people and ask 'What do you like about that car?' And 'What don't you like about that car?' And the following model year, those changes were incorporated into their cars. In other words, they took over market share by giving people what they were asking for, not by telling them what they should want.

As this trend continued, however, the cars they were selling began to incorporate more and more features that Americans had looked for in domestic cars. Instead of stripped-down econo-boxes, they got fancier with more bells, whistles, and comforts, like the Camry (and later the higher-end luxury models like those from Lexus). Their trucks got bigger, like the Tundra. It turns out that giving people what they want meant giving them the American cars they'd always been buying (although maybe with better gas mileage).

Which is one reason why, which you might have known if you ever bothered to read anything, the one American car company that is not an agency of the federal government just passed Toyota for the number two spot in market share.

igby 5 years, 6 months ago

General Motors has built junk for 25 years.

Fascism is a European sickness that appears when spineless men let bastards run the country because of fear. Their all a bunch of chickin st. Liberals are fascism prone because they're naturally born chick'n sts. They try to be ever thing to every one and no good for anyone. American's could never be happy with Fascism, they will kill you first.

Socialism is dead. European countries are in financial trouble because they bet all the chips on American trade and demand for goods from rich Americans. Now since America is a broke country; soon we will see Europe start too crumble and eating it's self from within because there is little cash flow supporting the social demand for their large spending promises on social networks. Europeans will get real unhappy and well, as they have done in the past so shall they likely do in the future; start killing each other.

TopJayhawk 5 years, 6 months ago

Time will tell. But it ain't looking good so far. I just wish that he would/could restore peoples interest in Wall street. Ignoring the traditional rules such as preffered stockholders get paid first and in full is out the window. Who in their right mind would invest now? Not me.

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

75x55-

Under which ideology? And anyone is free to worship as they choose, or not at all, to believe as they see fit so long as it is not injurious to others. That is tolerance. Or is it that you feel others whom may not share your specific theology are restricting your ability to believe as you see fit? And, well, smoking is not listed in the the bill of rights...

Do you wish "liberty" only for your ideals/theology/political beliefs? You are free to hold whatever political beliefs you wish, as well as to discuss them freely. Freedom to have beliefs that are unique to each individual means others may have dissenting viewpoints. I got a chuckle from the ugly spin on "do-gooder".... I mean, WWJD? Wasn't he the ultimate "do-gooder"? By the way, there is absolutely no mandate you participate in progress. You have the freedom to sit back and watch, while those of us "do-gooders" who enjoy our personal liberties as well have the right to participate as we see fit.

A soundbyte is a canned phrase used repetitively that features an insulting turn of phrase against the opposing opinion. Has a rancorous tone and little substance... And I concur, it is an indicator of problem in the arena of discussions....

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

My point was crystal clear. No one is restricting you or your beliefs. Same should apply under "all men are created equal...". You have no requirement to be a "do-gooder", thus the tyranny you tout is null and void.

And I am not a "sir"...

Bob Forer 5 years, 6 months ago

So, Obama is both a facist and a socialist?. Sorry, Kyle, but facism and socialism are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Its what you might call a contradiction in terms.

You've revealed yourself as pretty darned ignorant. A word of caution. The last propagandist to engage in such unmitigated and unreconstituted intellectual dishonesty was Hitler's infamous sidekick, Joseph Gobbels, who claimed that the greedy money lending Jews (capitalists) and Bolshevik Jews (communists) had conspired to destroy Germany.

ONe cannot be both a capitalist and a communist. Understood? Your choice of bed fellows is--and I am being exceptionally polite--questionable.

Go back and reread your bible.
Proverbs 29:11

A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.

P.S. thanks for the entertainment

RedwoodCoast 5 years, 6 months ago

Obama might be ruining your day, but I'm not swallowing the argument that he's ruining our country. It was already a mangled, sorry mess when he took over. Wouldn't it be horrible if he actually makes progress with his dastardly policies?

JHOK32 5 years, 6 months ago

Corporate greed is what's destroying our economy. GM could have built better cars years ago but they wanted them to fall apart so we would have to buy new ones...greed! The big banks made terrible loans to people that never should have got them & nearly destroyed our economy.....greed! Bush's big oil buddies wanted Iraq for it's huge oil reserves.....greed! We are destroying ourselves!

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

75x55-

From your 8:08 post... "When some do-gooder assumes the illogical notion that they trump liberty and freedom, then the inevitable result is tyranny."

Who is confused here? You brought up the topic, but can't remember it? Seems a bit irrational to pin confusion on me for addressing it. As to my prejudice against people of faith, I have dear friends of most every theological persuasion, and many of faith. Absolutely no one could state from my words that I believe every human should be restricted as to what they believe or practice, so long as it is not injurious to others. I am in no position to judge what you believe, and vice versa. My posts from our founding fathers yesterday were merely a reference to there not being one specific theological, ideological or religious foundation to the underpinnings of our nation. Now, as always, there are a great multitude if ideas and peoples whose ideas meld, sometimes in unison, more often not, into the functional chaos that is a democracy. As to my feelings of the importance of "doing unto others...", well, I just think it is a good policy to try and follow.

I also try to make it a point to remember what I post. It comes in handy when involved in a discussion.

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

"...if ideas..." I meant "of ideas"... Sorry!

spkup 5 years, 6 months ago

The commentary on the articles are better than the articles themselves. LJWorld should be offering some of you jobs :)

tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 6 months ago

sandersen "... And I am not a 'sir'…"

( Misreading the frock )

sandersen 5 years, 6 months ago

tangential-

You are a punster of the highest calibre!

Delicious!

notajayhawk 5 years, 6 months ago

pork_person says:

"Obama's policies are doing pretty well."

Really?

The polls you linked to, again, were pretty generic, asking just whether people approved of Obama's policies without specific mention of which ones or specific actions. Like this, for instance:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/auto_industry/just_21_favor_gm_bailout_plan_67_oppose

Only 21% of voters nationwide support a plan for the government to bail out General Motors as part of a structured bankruptcy plan to keep the troubled auto giant in business. [Rasmussen, 5/31/09]

"Ford is about 40,000 vehicles (7%) behind Toyota right now. You can do the math, can't you?"

Apparently you can't. My words were "just passed Toyota for the number two spot in market share." May sales were 155,620 units (16.8 market share) for Ford to 152,583 (16.5 share) for Toyota. I wouldn't question anyone else's math ability if you think 155,000 is less than 152,000, porchie. Ford passed Toyota for market share in April, although they haven't caught up in year-to-date yet.

But it was nice of you to post a link that proved my point - perhaps if you could actually read and understand the pretty charts and tables on the linked page.

In any event, the salient point was that the Japanese took started kicking butt in auto sales by giving people what they wanted to buy, as opposed to the American tradition of telling them what they should buy. When a car company, let alone a government-owned car company, tells you what kind of cars you should be buying, it's a recipe for disaster. And with Obama-motors leading the way, you can bet the Japanese will once more take over the market, since people will be flocking to foreign-maker sales lots instead of the disasters the government will soon be trying to force down our throats.

"Mr. Switalski has an undergraduate philosophy degree. Other than conservative nutcase web sites, I don't know where else he's published on political theory."

You're right, porchie - I should get my political expertise from a little boy living in mommy's basement posting to a small-town midwest newspaper's message boards. Or maybe the comedian he reveres as a political guru.

"The major difference between the two is the degree of control the population has over the decisions government makes."

Which is what I said, if it weren't for your lack of reading comprehension. I said there were also similarities, such as from your own definitions: "fascism ... exalts nation and often race above the individual," and "socialism ... a system of society or group living in which there is no private property." In both cases individual rights are seconded to the state.

Maybe if you actually tried thinking (if you had the equipment to do so, which your posts make it painfully evident you don't) you wouldn't rely on a dictionary. (BTW, porkie, who told you where to find the words in the dictionary?)

JHOK32 5 years, 6 months ago

I wouldn't read Ann Coulter if you paid me to.....I'd rather have a root canal thank you.

Brent Garner 5 years, 6 months ago

Can one be both a fascist and a socialist? The following definitions are from the only Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

fas•cism
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

so•cial•ism
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Please note that under both systems government control is central and key. I think that one could easily fit inside the other. I present Hugo Chavez and Venezuala as an example.

kansanbygrace 4 years, 3 months ago

Wrong example in the last paragraph. Venezuela's president is not a dictator. His nation has elected and reconfirmed him. The opposition are very free, not repressed. Today, there is a good chance that the opposition will gain some seats in the legislative election.

Private business is the huge majority, although there have been before, and still are, nationalized businesses, for example, PDVSA, the oil producer company, a tv network, etc. Almost all the property is private property. The huge majority of the press are owned by wealthy opponents of the government, are vociferous. Freedom and diversity of the press certainly exceeds our own. The inequality of distribution of goods is shrinking, not growing. The government has decentralized a lot of functions, with local participatory citizens associations determining the direction of their projects and developments. I'd recommend you read the Universal or El Nacional, who are decidedly opposition, very free and comprehensive. vheadline offers both pro-and con- articles, numerous, diverse. They permit hundreds of opposition NGO's funded in part by the US government to continue to function, to drive political campaigns, and to freely organize demonstrations, student protest movements, etc.

Brent Garner 5 years, 6 months ago

porch_person

It still amounts to government taking control, dictating to the people, and curtailing freedom and liberty. Thus the two are entirely too similar and compatible.

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